Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging, and societal transformation. Ever
Joanne Lockwood: wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not
Joanne Lockwood: only belongs but thrives? You're not
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 160
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, the power of honest storytelling.
Joanne Lockwood: I like it. Absolute honor and privilege to welcome Nick Elston.
Joanne Lockwood: Nick is a keynote speaker, a transformational speaking
Joanne Lockwood: coach, and founder of Forging People. And
Joanne Lockwood: he's dedicated to empowering individuals to embrace their voice, share their
Joanne Lockwood: stories, and foster meaningful connections through authentic
Joanne Lockwood: communication. When I asked Nick to describe his superpower,
Joanne Lockwood: he said that it is turning vulnerability into a
Joanne Lockwood: powerful tool for connection and transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Nick. Welcome to the show. Hey, Joe. It's great to be here. Thank you
Nick Elston: for asking me. Yeah. And we were just chatting just now, and,
Joanne Lockwood: we worked out that we'd, we both write for HR's own and
Joanne Lockwood: ask how how we connected. Yeah. We do. Great
Nick Elston: publication, and great to have met you along the way as well.
Nick Elston: 18, we worked out from the from the LinkedIn connection buttons. A
Nick Elston: long time in the making, but I sure will make this worth it.
Joanne Lockwood: We'll figure it out. Yes. I I think back in the early days when I
Joanne Lockwood: I just started in this field, I was clicking and connect on everybody that you
Joanne Lockwood: can find. So, yeah, there's probably a Well, I'm gonna pop you a random button.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I now use AI tools too for me, so I don't have to worry
Joanne Lockwood: about it. Yeah. Yeah. We've called this episode the power of honest
Joanne Lockwood: storytelling and, you know, looking at your what you do and your
Joanne Lockwood: superpower. How is the the storytelling
Joanne Lockwood: being built for you, and what's the authenticity and the
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability? Yeah. Yeah. How do you use that as a strength? I think for me,
Nick Elston: it comes from my own my own personal journey. So for context, the the nutshell
Nick Elston: version, I have mental illness. I have obsessive compulsive disorder,
Nick Elston: which largely is managed nowadays, but I developed it back in my
Nick Elston: childhood. And as I got older, left pretty much untreated because I am that
Nick Elston: old. It was wasn't something that was treated the way it would be now. It
Nick Elston: then morphed into something called generalized anxiety disorder or GAD.
Nick Elston: And as I got older, it started to kind of really take over my life.
Nick Elston: In my professional career, I was running for around a decade at
Nick Elston: a really high state of burnout. And then I had a breakdown in
Nick Elston: 02/2012. And it was at that point I started to use
Nick Elston: speaking as a therapy. And what I found was,
Nick Elston: being able to share your experiences and your story and your
Nick Elston: thoughts and your insights. And bearing in mind, I did this initially
Nick Elston: in a professional environment. We didn't do that in
Nick Elston: 02/2012. What I found was, despite what you hear on the
Nick Elston: news and popular media and social media, humans are essentially good. Go figure. Who
Nick Elston: knew? Humans do wanna support you if you only tell them what you need.
Nick Elston: And what I found was by sharing my experiences with them in a, again, in
Nick Elston: a professional environment, people started sharing their stuff with me. And
Nick Elston: I think for me, that's kinda where I learned that speaking without the
Nick Elston: filter, speaking with authenticity and vulnerability, and why has that been hugely
Nick Elston: hijacked since, to be fair? It builds a bridge of trust and connection
Nick Elston: and depth with people far more than any superficial message
Nick Elston: were ever trained to deliver in professional environments for sure.
Nick Elston: That's where it started for me. I started to speak more and more about my
Nick Elston: experiences. The rooms got bigger. The audiences got bigger. I started to travel the world
Nick Elston: doing this stuff, and the rest, they say, is history. But along the way, and
Nick Elston: in this spirit of honesty, you can only spend so long speaking about your
Nick Elston: story, especially professionally when it really took off before your
Nick Elston: story starts to own you again. And that's when I started to coach other people
Nick Elston: to share their stories. And that's really what's thrown me into the world that
Nick Elston: you operate in, into the realm of other people's experiences and
Nick Elston: how we can be defined by those stories as a
Nick Elston: negative force, or actually we they can be a catalyst for positive change, and that's
Nick Elston: where it started for me. I hear you what you're saying there in terms of
Joanne Lockwood: if you keep telling that story, it becomes all of you. If you don't care
Joanne Lockwood: for it, you end up living in the past because often these stories are
Joanne Lockwood: historical. And there's a an old adage, isn't it? You speak from the scar, not
Joanne Lockwood: from the wound, so you have to be kind of in a good place to
Joanne Lockwood: talk about it. Yep. But I I go through phases of of telling my story,
Joanne Lockwood: my journey, my canon, if you like, you know, where I came from and how
Joanne Lockwood: I'm who I am, who I am. And over time, if you're not careful,
Joanne Lockwood: it it does. It drags you back ten years.
Joanne Lockwood: And sometimes it's hard to remember the story of the inaccuracy,
Joanne Lockwood: so you have to use a facsimile of your story that
Joanne Lockwood: is relevant to the audience without necessarily being the
Joanne Lockwood: whole truth and nothing about the truth. A good illustration, and
Joanne Lockwood: you're pulling out key points, aren't you? So You're That's the challenge for people, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess. It is a challenge. And don't get me wrong. I still very much
Nick Elston: use my platform, whether it be from the stage or from writing,
Nick Elston: as therapy. It makes HR people very nervous, but it's very
Nick Elston: real. I will share what's going through my head right now in front of a
Nick Elston: live audience. I think it's a really healthy thing. But that being said, as
Nick Elston: you say, actually, the further you come away from your story, your experiences,
Nick Elston: especially if it's a, it's a real kind of big, kind of
Nick Elston: powerful, impactful moment in your life, you do see it very differently. The
Nick Elston: context kind of changes. I think also because our lives have
Nick Elston: other parts and players as well. So when you first start sharing your experiences, you're
Nick Elston: kind of respectful of other people's thoughts on these things, that the
Nick Elston: story can impact other people. That changes too the more that we
Nick Elston: get used to being more vulnerable. I guess my rule of thumb on
Nick Elston: this is to treat your story as an evolution.
Nick Elston: So the same story that I told as therapy
Nick Elston: in 2,012 is the same story I get paid to speak
Nick Elston: all over the world delivering now. The one difference is it's changed with time. It's
Nick Elston: changed with me. It's changed with experiences, with learnings, with connections.
Nick Elston: So if we start to see our story as a work in progress, we're not
Nick Elston: constantly kind of reaffirming the story that we told initially. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: No. I I yeah. It it it's also hard to keep telling the it could
Joanne Lockwood: be quite boring telling the same story. You take oh, here we go again. Here's
Joanne Lockwood: my life. You know? I wanna spice it up a bit, or this time I'll
Joanne Lockwood: put that in there. Sometimes it depends on who you're talking to and and why
Joanne Lockwood: you're there and what they wanna hear, doesn't it? It does. And I think this
Nick Elston: is the thing you see, that, no one cares as much as we think they
Nick Elston: do. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, that you could be the
Nick Elston: most exciting a list celebrity, but after fifteen minutes of talking
Nick Elston: to an audience, they're gonna wanna know what's in it for them. And I think
Nick Elston: that's kind of the thing, really, is you're when you're when you're telling your
Nick Elston: story, it's about it's about showcasing the
Nick Elston: value of your experiences, not just your experiences. So,
Nick Elston: for example, whether it's through mental illness, transitioning, whatever
Nick Elston: your experience has been in life, people don't really wanna be walked through those
Nick Elston: things, really. What they do wanna know is how did it impact you, how did
Nick Elston: it inspire you, how did it affect other people. They wanna have the
Nick Elston: experience of going through those challenges without having to relive the the bits that
Nick Elston: are already paying for in that sense. And I think once we start to do
Nick Elston: that, and I like to see it as if you were to write the story
Nick Elston: of your life, about 14 sides of a
Nick Elston: four is a fifty minute keynote. And 14 sides of a
Nick Elston: four is 14 chapters, 14 chapters as a book, a book as a business. You
Nick Elston: never know when this stuff goes. But a great exercise for all of your kind
Nick Elston: of viewers and listeners right now, write the story of your life. But I
Nick Elston: don't want you to write it from a first person perspective, not I did this
Nick Elston: and this happened to me. I want you to write it as if Morgan Freeman
Nick Elston: were narrating your life. And how cool would that be, by the way? So
Nick Elston: as if a narrator were were actually kind of speaking about you, then
Nick Elston: you start to see the value of your experiences to your audience, and that's for
Nick Elston: me, it's the difference. That also protects you emotionally as well. So
Nick Elston: many people decide to share their story, and it's so vulnerable, and
Nick Elston: it's so painful for that person to deliver it because they're not doing it from
Nick Elston: an audience perspective. They're doing it purely from a first person
Nick Elston: perspective. And I like that. And I think that tunes
Nick Elston: into something my nan used to tell me growing up that if everybody put their
Nick Elston: problems into the middle of the room, you'd end up picking your own back because
Nick Elston: you never know what other stuff what other stuff is going on with other people.
Nick Elston: And especially in professional environments because we mask it. How are you? Great. Thanks.
Nick Elston: How are you? Tell people to try telling people you feel rubbish.
Nick Elston: See how fast they run. Well, I think I've noticed in the, in the space,
Joanne Lockwood: the EDI space, the speaking space, whatever, you know, where we both coexist,
Joanne Lockwood: is that having a story or having a back you know, having a canon or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever is an end to the club because
Joanne Lockwood: I've realized that people have I'm far more willing to share their
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability, their their deepest secrets, their their pain points, everything,
Joanne Lockwood: really authentically and really vulnerably because I
Joanne Lockwood: I come with my own membership card to that
Joanne Lockwood: club. I was, you know, in the past, you know, you you described
Joanne Lockwood: yourself as a 47 year old white man at the beginning of this show or
Joanne Lockwood: or just before we went online. I I was in that
Joanne Lockwood: position thirteen years ago. I'm now a a 60 year old woman
Joanne Lockwood: with a trans history and a previous existence. And
Joanne Lockwood: in my old life, I didn't have a membership card to the vulnerability
Joanne Lockwood: sort of power. Yeah. People would I I'd just be seen as
Joanne Lockwood: a voyeur. But now I meet people, and I understand marginalization. I
Joanne Lockwood: understand the frustration of not having access to things, being
Joanne Lockwood: denied things, being picked on, being bullied or abused or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it may be. And I can relate to someone who is a person of
Joanne Lockwood: color, black, some person with disability. Obviously, I don't have their
Joanne Lockwood: story. I I have that empathy bridge where I can go, I
Joanne Lockwood: get it. I get what you mean by vulnerability. They look back at me. They
Joanne Lockwood: go, I know you get it. So that shared experience, isn't it? It
Nick Elston: is. I think that the first ten seconds of any interaction with
Nick Elston: anybody, the two things that people strive for are commonality and community.
Nick Elston: Why are you like me? Even if you seem completely worlds apart, why are you
Nick Elston: like me? And what value is it gonna be for us to have this
Nick Elston: conversation, this talk, this keynote, whatever that thing is? I think that's a really important
Nick Elston: thing to master, and I think you're quite right. There is a there's a common
Nick Elston: thread between a lot of issues that we experience in life, whether it
Nick Elston: be mental illness or pronouns, identity, transitioning,
Nick Elston: race, culture, sexuality. There's so many things that make us diverse and
Nick Elston: varied in life. The common fact factor for me is belonging,
Nick Elston: And it's essentially kind of a big reason why I do what I do
Nick Elston: now is that it affects our sense of belonging enough to feel that
Nick Elston: we're marginalized enough to not have a platform, to not have a voice, to
Nick Elston: not feel that we can step up. So for me, belonging is a common
Nick Elston: thread in all this. People that have not always had the platform to
Nick Elston: speak. And we can break this down into even just into the
Nick Elston: the the man woman approach as well that why is it that Find Your Voice,
Nick Elston: the the conference that I run, that 80 to 90% are
Nick Elston: women, but then when we turn up at the conference events where it's
Nick Elston: stadium and conference hall events, still most of the speakers are
Nick Elston: 90% male. There are disconnects everywhere.
Nick Elston: And the only way that we correct disconnects is by stepping
Nick Elston: up, creating a platform, and finding our voices. So more
Nick Elston: power to your elbow, to the other people that speak about culture and race and
Nick Elston: sexuality and all these other things that other people need to know about. But I
Nick Elston: think there's a there's a real big fear that we are losing
Nick Elston: the ability to ask questions from those people as well. So
Nick Elston: people that are not through going through the experiences that
Nick Elston: other people have gone through, I think fueled by cancel culture and something we
Nick Elston: spoke briefly about before we hit record on this. I think we're really afraid of
Nick Elston: asking questions for the fear of being canceled or being ashamed or or just saying
Nick Elston: the wrong thing. And I think that's something we we need to
Nick Elston: maintain, the ability to ask better questions. I guarantee you
Nick Elston: that so much I don't understand in this world because it's just not been my
Nick Elston: experience. So you either blindly agree, not
Nick Elston: knowing what you're agreeing with, or you blindly disagree where all your
Nick Elston: old generational biases run wild. Both are equally
Nick Elston: damaging. For me, the bit in the middle is find people that have lived this,
Nick Elston: find people that know this stuff, and ask them for a genuine need to
Nick Elston: educate or to be curious. And I guarantee, Joe, I've not been punched
Nick Elston: once. So that's a good sign. There's thousands of conversations about where people that are
Nick Elston: not like me not been punched once. So that's my recommendation to everybody. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I'm I'm I'm the first to admit I have an opinion on most things,
Joanne Lockwood: but I also realized that my opinion isn't always safe. I appreciate
Joanne Lockwood: that it's my opinion. And there are certain things I I don't want to have
Joanne Lockwood: an opinion on, and it frustrates the the pajesus out of people. When I
Joanne Lockwood: I say, I'm sorry. I don't really have an opinion on that. And they say,
Joanne Lockwood: well, you must have an opinion. You must have thought. I said, well, I do
Joanne Lockwood: have some biases. I have some stereotypes, and I have some stories I could tell
Joanne Lockwood: you about it. But, really, I persuade me to give me give me
Joanne Lockwood: your thoughts. I I don't have a strong enough view to wanna express it
Joanne Lockwood: to anybody. I think what happens in the world at the moment is
Joanne Lockwood: everybody is just feels licensed to express their opinions whether
Joanne Lockwood: they're safe or not. I think you're right. I think there's it's the
Nick Elston: reason I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Instagram. I'm not on Twitter stroke x,
Nick Elston: whatever it's called at the moment. I'm only on LinkedIn, and that's kind of where
Nick Elston: I hang out. Because of that very reason, I think there's so many
Nick Elston: platforms, which and it was interesting. There was a Harvard study done this many
Nick Elston: years ago that between 18 and 29 year olds, social media was the biggest source
Nick Elston: of anxiety. But in the same survey with the same demographic demographic
Nick Elston: from a mental health perspective, it was a bigger source of positive community for mental
Nick Elston: health. So, actually, it's not the platforms per se. It's our immersion,
Nick Elston: our engagement in those platforms. People don't immerse well. They
Nick Elston: will end up doomscrolling or feeling worse. And that's why I left in
Nick Elston: May 2020. I decided to leave social media. This was
Nick Elston: just after the pandemic and everything else, had started. And people that I
Nick Elston: knew for decades were falling out on a public timeline, and there were really strong
Nick Elston: opinions flying around everywhere. I thought, I'm out. If you pick up your phone and
Nick Elston: twenty minutes later feel worse, that's not a good place to be. And I
Nick Elston: never went back. And I still exist commercially and personally, which is a
Nick Elston: good thing. People think you don't exist if you're not on those things. But I
Nick Elston: think you're right. It gives people a platform to share opinions that
Nick Elston: okay. People are people are, I guess, entitled to an opinion.
Nick Elston: But it's how we decide to immerse in those things. If we feel
Nick Elston: sensitive about something, we will immerse ourselves in that
Nick Elston: thing, and we damage ourselves. Or the other effect is
Nick Elston: the echo chamber effect where we just surround ourselves with people like us and take
Nick Elston: that approach that you're either with me or against me kind of mentality, which to
Nick Elston: me, again, is equally damaging. So social media is an interesting one for sure.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'll take your opinion on something because,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know if you noticed but or realized, but I I I do some
Joanne Lockwood: guest appearances on GB News, which is I did all know that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Well, it's it's kind of as toxic as you as you get from a
Joanne Lockwood: from a an EDI professional, from a trans woman's perspective. And people
Joanne Lockwood: criticize me for feeding the beast, if you like.
Joanne Lockwood: My my view is that if I'm not in the room,
Joanne Lockwood: they can have that conversation anyway. Am I adding credibility to it being
Joanne Lockwood: there, or am I taking the opportunity to say, hang on a
Joanne Lockwood: minute. Here's another alternative opinion. And that's my view.
Joanne Lockwood: So my my view is always go into the room, be a voice of
Joanne Lockwood: alternative in a very measured, very balanced, very calm, very
Joanne Lockwood: rational way just to counteract the myths because my rationalization
Joanne Lockwood: is I'll I'll go anywhere toxic if I'm given a microphone and
Joanne Lockwood: and and will be heard, even if I'm shouted down or abused while I'm on
Joanne Lockwood: the stage, which has happened, just purely because
Joanne Lockwood: there are people in the room who aren't
Joanne Lockwood: hard right, hard left, hard ingrained, and
Joanne Lockwood: they they're open to hearing a different view. And I think we we owe it
Joanne Lockwood: to those people to give them another voice, and that that's that's why I do
Joanne Lockwood: it. So I don't know if you you've ever been in that situation where you've,
Joanne Lockwood: had to walk away. Firstly, I admire your strength and resilience
Nick Elston: because in the spirit of honesty, the and, again, we spoke about it before for
Nick Elston: a publication I used to write for. It was it was an extremely
Nick Elston: kind of toxic forum to the extent of our post around mental
Nick Elston: health, and somebody would say, I don't believe in mental health. I mean, what the
Nick Elston: hell does that mean? I mean, that's all something we haven't got time to go
Nick Elston: through right now. But but it's, and I withdrew myself from that. So, actually, I
Nick Elston: I would say this was many years ago, but I admire your strength and courage
Nick Elston: to do that. I personally I would say, like, I'm a reformed people pleaser, but
Nick Elston: I still get quite sensitive. And I think because I've built a business that's
Nick Elston: based on me, my personal story and stuff, I'm quite sensitive to
Nick Elston: that. But I do agree there are environments that are, I
Nick Elston: would say, comparable to what you're doing, whereas I will go and work for a
Nick Elston: large organization, get asked to speak to their teams and staff.
Nick Elston: And I know they're doing it as a tick box exercise. I know there will
Nick Elston: be pushback. I know there will be people in that room that are usually and
Nick Elston: again, without stereotyping, but generally, it's true. It's the the kind
Nick Elston: of the the middle aged, or just older than me, maybe male suited,
Nick Elston: booted, arms folded at the back. They're gonna be the people that are
Nick Elston: gonna say we don't wanna engage in this stuff. But I'd like you were saying,
Nick Elston: I'd much rather be there affecting potentially one person than not
Nick Elston: be there at all. And I think that's that's the bit that you're doing brilliantly
Nick Elston: well is that you're actually staying in that space.
Nick Elston: But interestingly, those arms folded, middle aged white guys
Nick Elston: usually, will come up to be afterwards and be the first people to open up
Nick Elston: about their challenges. They don't wanna talk an open forum, but they very much wanna
Nick Elston: talk in a private format. But I think that comes from vulnerability as well that
Nick Elston: if you share your experiences and your insights and your stories
Nick Elston: unfiltered with honesty, you build trust and rapport with
Nick Elston: people instantly to the extent that I can walk in, and an hour later, I've
Nick Elston: got somebody opening up about their life experiences to me. It's an amazing thing. So
Nick Elston: I think that's where, again, my vulnerability rocks, and you will be impacting
Nick Elston: people by what you do on TV news. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: I echo what you're saying about the the arms folded people in the
Joanne Lockwood: room. And I've I've had clients brief me beforehand saying, oh, you got
Joanne Lockwood: this person, this person, and this person. They're they're really kind of hard to deal
Joanne Lockwood: with, and, you know, they're gonna be really argumentative and pushback, doubting
Joanne Lockwood: all this. Okay. That's fine. Is it you you know what I was? No.
Joanne Lockwood: No. No. No. Because in my experience, what I found is, as you said,
Joanne Lockwood: these people are the ones that wear change you know, you turn on lights. And
Joanne Lockwood: I always frame my my training, my talking is I I'm never here to tell
Joanne Lockwood: you what to do, what to think, what to say. That's for you. Change has
Joanne Lockwood: to occur in you. All I wanna do is turn some lights on, push the
Joanne Lockwood: button, and encourage you to think. And if that if you come away from it
Joanne Lockwood: thinking that you don't agree with me, that's fine. I don't have to be right.
Joanne Lockwood: I talk about perspectives and opinions, and I'm very honest to say that what
Joanne Lockwood: I'm trying to do now is sell you my opinion. You have the right to
Joanne Lockwood: choose to to adopt it or not adopt it. So I can't tell you to
Joanne Lockwood: challenge your own views and opinions than by telling you mine.
Joanne Lockwood: And you find that these people warm to you, and I'd say the the most
Joanne Lockwood: the people you think are gonna be the most the toughest audience are actually the
Joanne Lockwood: pussycats. Or if if they aren't entrenched,
Joanne Lockwood: they do some of my job for me because they asked these pretty direct off
Joanne Lockwood: off the wall questions. And the whole room's going, blimey. I'm glad
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not I'm glad I'm more enlightened than they are. Yeah. And so
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes they do my job for me by by coming out with those tough questions.
Joanne Lockwood: But, no, I've always found that most people, as you say, set off
Joanne Lockwood: by being kind. Nobody grows up or wants to be a dick. And, generally, they
Joanne Lockwood: don't wanna look like a dick in the middle of the room. Exactly. And they
Joanne Lockwood: do come up afterwards and say, thank you. I've really learned something. Because
Nick Elston: you're talking about something which is either sensitive to them or
Nick Elston: something which even can be considered as a taboo. There's so much generational
Nick Elston: stuff that's been handed down to us as taboo. I mean, even things like grief.
Nick Elston: I mean, later on today, I'm running a webinar with a a counselor on
Nick Elston: on grief. And even with things like grief in the workplace, it's still
Nick Elston: taboo. Why is grief a a taboo element? And the only way that you tackle
Nick Elston: these taboos is what you're doing is you're going in, sharing a story, sharing experiences.
Nick Elston: And I love the fact that what you're saying is very much like myself. You're
Nick Elston: not solution focused in the way that you've got to do this. This is gonna
Nick Elston: help you. This is gonna fix you. This is gonna make you understand. You're giving
Nick Elston: people the ammunition to ask better questions of themselves. And I
Nick Elston: think that's where it stems from. As you say, nobody kind of grows nobody
Nick Elston: grows up as a clean slate with that intention to be a dick to people,
Nick Elston: but that's usually been handed handed down just a generational belief.
Nick Elston: And, also, it doesn't mean to say that they're wrong. It just needs to they
Nick Elston: need to change the way that they think and feel and understand other
Nick Elston: people's experiences and not like theirs. I have people sort of come up
Joanne Lockwood: to me and say, I I I don't get trans. I don't get
Joanne Lockwood: non binary. And I go, that's okay. I don't either. I don't understand.
Joanne Lockwood: If I could explain it and bottle it, I could flog it, but I
Joanne Lockwood: don't understand it. All I can do is rationalize and say, I just am. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't understand what it's like to be transmasculine. I don't understand what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: be non binary because that's not my lived experience. I can tell you how I
Joanne Lockwood: feel about me. You know? A sample size of one, I
Joanne Lockwood: can't argue about whether it's right, wrong, indifferent
Joanne Lockwood: I can't give you a medical explanation. All I can say is there's some sort
Joanne Lockwood: of neurodivergence where my brain is wired, and this makes sense.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't expect any further than that. So I think when people try and
Joanne Lockwood: ask me to prove, I go, well, there is no proof. It it just is.
Joanne Lockwood: Like many things, there's no How they kinda come to you kind of they come
Nick Elston: to you to feel that, right, okay, prove me wrong, kind
Nick Elston: of mentality. It's like kind of very often if I take to the stage, like,
Nick Elston: they look at me like, okay, beardy boy, entertain me. Woah.
Nick Elston: Hopefully, I will, but that's not exactly what I meant, just to entertain you. I
Nick Elston: think it's but I think that's an expectation thing. And and
Nick Elston: also, I like to explore, and I like the dynamics
Nick Elston: of delivering at a mandatory session as
Nick Elston: opposed to one that people of of their food choice. That's an interesting
Nick Elston: dynamic twist as well. Because actually what you find is that you
Nick Elston: have to I used to run pubs and clubs back in the day, and I
Nick Elston: was always told to train in my security training, go for the biggest guy first.
Nick Elston: So I I kinda take that same same approach now to to audiences.
Nick Elston: So if there is that one Gobby one or the one that's shouting at you
Nick Elston: a day or the one that they aren't folded, I go for them first. Then
Nick Elston: kind of everyone settles down a little bit then. But the mandatory one makes me
Nick Elston: laugh so much because, actually, you can tell that they just don't wanna be there.
Nick Elston: They all be swerving at the fact that you're talking about such a personal experience
Nick Elston: because it's been an experience of them. Even a fan is certainly I was
Nick Elston: working with, American Express with their, diversity team
Nick Elston: a few years ago now. We were talking about this very thing that actually very
Nick Elston: often why people come into these roles of representing a
Nick Elston: section of society or section of humanity is because they have
Nick Elston: either experienced that directly or indirectly themselves.
Nick Elston: But by nature, you then become more sensitive to
Nick Elston: take on the burdens and the challenges of everybody else. So,
Nick Elston: actually, what it does, it increases the pressure on your own emotional well-being because
Nick Elston: you are flying the flag. So, actually, if you look at mental health
Nick Elston: champions, for example, that by the time they get home, they
Nick Elston: have not only supported themselves, but 20 other people, and that's before they even get
Nick Elston: home. Home is not always a good place.
Nick Elston: So I think that people like ourselves that are actually out there
Nick Elston: championing things, trying to create thought leadership and
Nick Elston: stuff, there's an element of we do need to be more selfish as well. We
Nick Elston: need to make sure that we protect our own energy before we put
Nick Elston: ourselves into those situations. And I think for me, that's why
Nick Elston: I know my kind of resilience threshold when it comes to pushback. I
Nick Elston: don't get that much, to be honest, but, I'm in true admiration of you, Joe,
Nick Elston: for having a a lot higher threshold to put yourself in these situations. I mean,
Nick Elston: just GB News generally, that's that is an amazing place for you to go
Nick Elston: into. I've got a tune in now. I've got, links.
Joanne Lockwood: I I capture the video. I've recorded myself, and I've got I've got all the
Joanne Lockwood: shows on. I've got I I got a greatest hits collection, and
Joanne Lockwood: I actually you I did a speaker show reel for pride last year. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I clipped all of the intros. I'd like to welcome Joanne Lockwood. I'd like to
Joanne Lockwood: welcome Joanne Lockwood. I had Jacob Rees Mogg. I had Al Widdicombe. I had,
Joanne Lockwood: Patrick Christie's. I had all the kind of main presenters welcoming Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood, and I thought it was a great little, pride showreel
Joanne Lockwood: intro. And then I posted you know, like, people post
Joanne Lockwood: testimonials on their showreels. I posted all the testimonials
Joanne Lockwood: from x, all the negative testimonials. I was like, who does
Joanne Lockwood: this bloke think he is with that deep voice? This bloke is wrecking
Joanne Lockwood: society. This bloke is killing our children. I posted those as
Nick Elston: Some big old week, guys. On on my showreels.
Joanne Lockwood: Because, you know, if if you're gonna dance for the devil, you you're gonna you're
Joanne Lockwood: gonna get you're gonna hit your ass put. This is it. I I I'm trying
Nick Elston: to understand that rational leap between transitioning and you are killing our
Nick Elston: children. Mutilating them, drugging them, ruining
Joanne Lockwood: their their future, sterilizing them. Really? I I don't remember
Joanne Lockwood: advocating with that. Friend of mine, Ollie, he's he's a
Nick Elston: techie. So he he kind of thinks this way anyway. He's kinda very much lost
Nick Elston: in AI completely. But, he has this kind of phrase, if I say anything
Nick Elston: that people do that are just weird, he says people are idiots. So I will
Nick Elston: caveat that some people are idiots. And like I said, there's a lot of people
Nick Elston: that really don't deserve to have a voice, let alone find it. Well, the the
Joanne Lockwood: thing is, you've got to respect the fact that people who we think are
Joanne Lockwood: idiots don't think they're they're idiots themselves. You know, you you live within your own
Joanne Lockwood: sense of self and your own echo chamber. I'm putting myself out of here, but
Nick Elston: people saying that you're killing their children, that's a pretty idiotic move, to
Nick Elston: be fair. Well, the equation which is actually killing children, and
Nick Elston: a podcast would be a great way to come out with that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: advocating for it. I've had I've had people write me posted letters. They've somehow
Joanne Lockwood: tracked me down, worked out where I live or my accountant,
Joanne Lockwood: put a stamp on the envelope, and written it and and post it to me.
Joanne Lockwood: And then, you know, oh, great. That's really lovely. Thank you. Or they find my
Joanne Lockwood: email address, and I get it in my info box every so often. This is
Joanne Lockwood: a kind of, yeah, this kind of hate mail. But, yeah, it's
Joanne Lockwood: Interesting. The way I box it off is I treat it as
Joanne Lockwood: graffiti. You know, you're driving through a rough part of town, and there's spray paint
Joanne Lockwood: on all the walls, and it's got swear words. It's got this. It's got
Joanne Lockwood: you go home, and you're this. And you just put your foot down and just
Joanne Lockwood: keep driving. So as far as I'm concerned, all these concerts, they're just graffiti. They're
Joanne Lockwood: not at me. They're just shouting at the world. I just happen to be the
Joanne Lockwood: wall they're spraying it on. And they just wipe it off and go, well, you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know me. Yeah. You've got no idea who I am. No fact
Joanne Lockwood: in what you've said is so I can detach because it's not
Joanne Lockwood: personal. They think it's personal, but it's not because it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: sprayed on the wall as far as I'm concerned. Interesting. Can I ask you a
Nick Elston: question? I appreciate it. This is your show. Yeah. No. No. That's what I have.
Nick Elston: I get curious, you see. Would you say that the biggest
Nick Elston: challenge, what to to you personally
Nick Elston: was actual the the decision to transition
Nick Elston: or the the announcing of that transition to
Nick Elston: family society and the muggles that are out there right
Nick Elston: now. And, again, I'm a big party lots of fans. I use the muggles very
Nick Elston: positively, by the way. Yeah. The the toughest thing was, I think, coming
Joanne Lockwood: out to myself, so accepting and realizing
Joanne Lockwood: who I and working out when it was
Joanne Lockwood: necessary. So I always say that when it became
Joanne Lockwood: necessary, it became necessary. Before it was necessary, it
Joanne Lockwood: was manageable. So it was that point when it became necessary.
Joanne Lockwood: And then at that point there, I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: so much transition. The world had to. So I'm
Joanne Lockwood: still kind of the eyes still see the same as everybody
Joanne Lockwood: else, but it was my brother, other mother in
Joanne Lockwood: laws, or my friends, or my reputation, or my career. Those are the people that
Joanne Lockwood: I kinda got used to me. So, you know, you talk about we talk about
Joanne Lockwood: the the social model or the medical model of disability, it's society that
Joanne Lockwood: is the problem. And and for me, it was the world
Joanne Lockwood: that had to realign its perspective of me, and all I had to do was
Joanne Lockwood: just try try and keep being the best me I could so the world would
Joanne Lockwood: align in the way I want it to realign around me and to shift it
Joanne Lockwood: by one eighty or something. So, yeah, that that was the challenge. So
Joanne Lockwood: coming out initially, I I did when I was drunk on
Joanne Lockwood: Facebook. We talked about social media. So that kind
Joanne Lockwood: of was ripping the sticky parts off pretty quick, and I then just
Joanne Lockwood: woke up in the morning and then owned it. And, yeah, I simplify it, but
Joanne Lockwood: that's that's that's the headline, the jovial kind of get the audience laughing type
Joanne Lockwood: headline. But, yeah, my what what I realized very early
Joanne Lockwood: on was the challenge wasn't me. It was the impact on my
Joanne Lockwood: family, close family. That that was the hardest bit where I thought it was all
Joanne Lockwood: about me, but, actually, I realized it wasn't it was all about everybody else. And
Joanne Lockwood: they needed more help than I did. And, because you
Joanne Lockwood: know, you see these things. You know? The first one is very good at this,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, YOLO. If they're not with you, they're against you. You gotta get
Joanne Lockwood: on with life and bugger them. If they're not up for it, you just walk
Joanne Lockwood: away. It's toxic. And I can see people who've done who've taken that attitude, and
Joanne Lockwood: they've they're walking alone. Whereas I I decide, well, I
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't want to walk alone. I wanted to be selfish and have what I
Joanne Lockwood: had. And when that's your objective, you take a
Joanne Lockwood: different approach. Now I always say, in order to be liked, you have to be
Joanne Lockwood: likeable. In order to be loved, you have to be lovable. In In order to
Joanne Lockwood: be respected, you have to be worthy of that respect. And all that
Joanne Lockwood: was I had the power in my in myself
Joanne Lockwood: to be likable, lovable, and and worthy of respect. Not anybody
Joanne Lockwood: else. Everybody else could then take me.
Joanne Lockwood: I've used this depression several times, like, escape to where the puck is going, not
Joanne Lockwood: to where it is. If that's where I wanna be, that's where I go ahead.
Joanne Lockwood: And don't expect people to come to me and just accept me for who I
Joanne Lockwood: was. So that that was the important lesson, but a lot of that was for
Joanne Lockwood: the epiphanies and and realizations based on
Joanne Lockwood: the feedback from my my wife, feedback from my daughter, especially,
Joanne Lockwood: who who gave me a a bit of a a mental slap around the face
Joanne Lockwood: and said wake up and smell the coffee. You're a dick.
Joanne Lockwood: If you want us to see you differently, behave differently. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Interesting. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I appreciate that. No. As
Joanne Lockwood: we started diving a bit deeper, can I You mentioned your mental
Joanne Lockwood: health challenges? You mentioned your OCD. OCD is a is a is a a
Joanne Lockwood: term that's bathed around often. You you have people, oh, I
Joanne Lockwood: gotta keep it there. Oh, it's my OCD. Oh, it's my OCD. Yeah. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, we obviously appreciate there's a difference between people stealing
Joanne Lockwood: that phrase for for the just that they don't wanna move their pencil two inches.
Joanne Lockwood: So I like it to have their pen sway and align with align with something.
Joanne Lockwood: But on what you had, can you just tell me or tell the
Joanne Lockwood: listeners, what is OCD Yep. From your perspective? I
Nick Elston: think o so obsessive compulsive disorder. So OCD, I think much trivia
Nick Elston: managed due to channel four is OCD cleaners, as you say, or I'm a little
Nick Elston: bit OCD. It doesn't kinda work that way. It's very painful, frustrating condition. It's,
Nick Elston: so I developed at the age of seven, and I'm after witnessing a a family
Nick Elston: accident. And it was I think anybody's experienced any
Nick Elston: form of mental illness very often. It can be chemical, of course, but very often,
Nick Elston: it comes from a very severe action, produces a very severe reaction.
Nick Elston: So OCD is the ultimate pursuit of the uncontrollable.
Nick Elston: So how it manifested was I started to check gas, which is in sets of
Nick Elston: three, light switches in sets of three, locks in sets of three with that feeling
Nick Elston: of comfort is the desired outcome. But the other outcome
Nick Elston: was and it's the fear that drives you is that if I didn't do these
Nick Elston: things, I would bring harm or even kill my family because the the
Nick Elston: situation was family related. So therefore, it's kinda assumed
Nick Elston: protection of the family through going through these checks and measures, which
Nick Elston: sounds hugely irrational to to people that have not experienced that. But
Nick Elston: I think there's something in that. The rationality goes out the window when obsession and
Nick Elston: compulsion are thrown into the mix. So, so it's kinda like a routine you have
Nick Elston: to do, and it kind of it fuels high anxiety.
Nick Elston: So through education, into my kind of teams,
Nick Elston: I was fueled by high anxiety. I I think that's the kicker though, really, that
Nick Elston: you can you see this a lot in professional life, and I write, like, a
Nick Elston: lot about this in in kind of HR publications such as yourself and,
Nick Elston: that we can be highly successful and highly performing fueled by
Nick Elston: anxiety, but you can only run for so long until you stop, and therein
Nick Elston: lies the problem. I also think that it's taught me a lot
Nick Elston: about the way I speak, and like yourself in what you just said, I'm not
Nick Elston: solution focused. So, actually, I don't share what anxiety
Nick Elston: and and obsession compulsion is. I share what it does. So do you
Nick Elston: constantly ruminate on things that have gone wrong before, past relationships,
Nick Elston: past conversations, past decisions, and you replay them with a very real and
Nick Elston: very current feeling of guilt and remorse and regret. And what
Nick Elston: it does, it changes your narrative enough to start to then catastrophize what's to
Nick Elston: come. So, again, you wake up that feeling of fear and dread of everything that
Nick Elston: you're doing. It's all gonna go wrong. And I think that's why in
Nick Elston: my current life, and I focus so much on one thing, I don't coach
Nick Elston: presentation skills. That's not really my thing. What I coach is transformation
Nick Elston: through speaking. You change your narrative. You change your experience. But it
Nick Elston: came from OCD. And I think there's something in that and and
Nick Elston: from what you've brilliantly shared as well, Joe, that from
Nick Elston: ultimate chaos can come magic. From the biggest of
Nick Elston: adversities can come the most exciting things. But let's
Nick Elston: not beat around the bush here. Both of those things could have easily destroyed somebody
Nick Elston: as well. And I think there's something in that that you the same thing that
Nick Elston: can be the destructive force in somebody's life
Nick Elston: can also be the catalyst for positive change if we only use it in the
Nick Elston: right way. And that's why I focus so much on narrative. Because I think for
Nick Elston: me, OCD is fueled by negative narrative. It's fueled
Nick Elston: by high anxiety, but also there's a word I'm struggling for here, intrusive
Nick Elston: thoughts. Are you are you aware
Joanne Lockwood: that it is a false
Joanne Lockwood: belief? Are you aware that you you you're you're trying to doubt
Joanne Lockwood: yourself all the time going, I know this is wrong, but I can't stop myself.
Joanne Lockwood: Is it a feeling of powerlessness that you can't override it? Yeah. I think certainly
Nick Elston: and it has to be said with professional help, certainly in later
Nick Elston: years. It actually makes you kinda question
Nick Elston: everything in that sense. I always say to people now, one of the best things
Nick Elston: we can do is set out on a mission to prove ourselves wrong and actually
Nick Elston: realize that most of the things that we get anxious anxious about
Nick Elston: never happen. I mean, I use the example in 02/2012 after my
Nick Elston: breakdown. I kept something called a worry journal. It sounds weird, but go with me.
Nick Elston: It's a really, like, messed up version of a gratitude journal. I wrote down everything
Nick Elston: that made me highly anxious or the byproducts of high anxiety, so, like, defensive and
Nick Elston: aggressive behavior. Jealousy and insecurity were huge in my world.
Nick Elston: Erratic behavior, sedgy lack of energy. And on day one, there
Nick Elston: were a 28 entries. And two weeks later welcome to
Nick Elston: OCD. Two weeks later, I I kind of checked back on day
Nick Elston: one, and of those of those a 28 things, absolutely none of them
Nick Elston: happened. And the more that I started to prove myself wrong,
Nick Elston: when that pattern starts to come in, I can then
Nick Elston: start to change the narrative enough to say, actually, no, because it didn't it didn't
Nick Elston: happen last time. It's the same as,
Nick Elston: I'm sure everybody here has had that feeling that they left the other on, they
Nick Elston: left the door unlocked. It's kind of like that on repeat in that sense. But
Nick Elston: the more that we start to kinda check these things if I'm tired and stressed,
Nick Elston: and the reason I say I have OCD even now, it it never goes.
Nick Elston: If I'm tired enough, stressed enough, shocked enough, I actually developed it again
Nick Elston: after after having a road accident a few years ago, but I come back very
Nick Elston: quickly. If I check something more than twice, I have to physically stop myself because
Nick Elston: I will fall back into that routine. I do a roadshow with an amazing,
Nick Elston: what I called my neuroboffin, Ellen. She she says that when we create anxiety
Nick Elston: about things, we damage ourselves mentally, physically, spiritually, and
Nick Elston: emotionally as if it were actually happening anyway. So we're
Nick Elston: kind of damaging ourselves multiple times about the same situation. So one of the
Nick Elston: the main kind of points of what I speak about now is to fact
Nick Elston: check our anxieties. And, actually, is this
Nick Elston: fact, or is it the story that we're telling ourselves? And is
Nick Elston: it if it is the story that we're telling ourselves, we can change that
Nick Elston: story. And if it's facts, go for closure.
Nick Elston: I always use the example of the text message. So if you've
Nick Elston: ever had a row with somebody really close to you by text message, iMessage, or
Nick Elston: WhatsApp, the three dots causes far more anxiety than the
Nick Elston: actual end of that conversation. And what about the disappearing three dots?
Nick Elston: So much anxiety. But the end of that conversation is never that bad.
Nick Elston: And and this is the thing. We we were constantly assuming worst case outcomes.
Nick Elston: So my advice to to people listening and watching this today, set
Nick Elston: out on a mission to prove yourself wrong. You'll be surprised at how little actually
Nick Elston: happens. Yeah. So I I I use that kind of
Joanne Lockwood: expression. There's a a forecaster called Paul Saffo, and he coined the phrase
Joanne Lockwood: strong opinions are weakly held. And part of that is, yes, you're allowed
Joanne Lockwood: your opinions, but go out to the world
Joanne Lockwood: believing you're wrong and and and try to prove you're
Joanne Lockwood: wrong rather than start believing you're right, try to prove you're right. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit like that's what scientists do. They put a theory out there and they try
Joanne Lockwood: and prove each other wrong, and they they welcome criticism and peer reviews, and everyone
Joanne Lockwood: who's done a PhD has to justify their opinions with people
Joanne Lockwood: saying you're wrong. They have to stand up and defend it. So, yeah, most
Joanne Lockwood: people wanna be right. Most conversations are about selling my opinion
Joanne Lockwood: to you, even if it's just, it's nice weather. I'm selling you that
Joanne Lockwood: belief that the weather's nice, and you're gonna go, well, it's a bit cloudy.
Joanne Lockwood: So you're you're you're giving me your opinion back. And you try and analyze a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation that doesn't have an opinion or a belief in it. Does that happen?
Nick Elston: Yeah. Very true. I mean, it's important to say that I I I do share
Nick Elston: what I call lived experience playbook tips. So they're kind of they're not advised
Nick Elston: by any stretch and not solutions. If you are having
Nick Elston: thoughts which are intrusive or causes you pain or frustration,
Nick Elston: absolutely reach out for professional help. I would strongly recommend that, of course,
Nick Elston: as a clear morality and also for insurance purposes. That's that's
Nick Elston: my disclaimer. But I think there's again, there's something in that with what we both
Nick Elston: do. We're we're there to share lived experience.
Nick Elston: I think for me, lived experience I was speaking at the
Nick Elston: CIPD workplace well-being conference last week in London, and one of the
Nick Elston: main drivers of the message there was lived experience being the perfect vehicle to
Nick Elston: drive engagement to help or to solutions or insights or
Nick Elston: community, but it's not the answer. I think the worrying
Nick Elston: thing for me is I see a lot of people, especially in a mental health
Nick Elston: space, because that's a space I I'm in mainly. They're taking on that
Nick Elston: responsibility. We're helping people at their most vulnerable without the
Nick Elston: qualifications, training, or skills to actually help that person.
Nick Elston: I think for me, it's really about communicating our
Nick Elston: niche and our, the reason why we're
Nick Elston: there. And, obviously, for both of us, it's kind of what we do. We
Nick Elston: give people our experiences. We give people our lived experience. We share what
Nick Elston: works, what hasn't worked. And I think people really like that, but it's just a
Nick Elston: vehicle to reach out for help. Our role is to get people to a point
Nick Elston: of engaging in, for me, certainly, the the
Nick Elston: proper solutions. And for you, it was actually changing
Nick Elston: thoughts, changing minds. I mean, one of the things that I find
Nick Elston: people that have been through experiences in their lives find most
Nick Elston: difficult to start with is trying to engage with people that
Nick Elston: don't think like them and actually quite bluntly and
Nick Elston: and sometimes, as you say, abusively don't agree with them as well. That could be
Nick Elston: really challenging sometimes. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with
Nick Elston: you've mentioned kind of, like, the the letters and stuff that you get, but how
Nick Elston: do you deal with the kind of the what I call the low level toxicity,
Nick Elston: you know, the the little pushbacks that you get? Do you ever get that in
Nick Elston: person as well? I know this is your show, but I'm also very curious about
Joanne Lockwood: it. No. No. I'm I I work I work on the the question. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, out of all of my experience, I've only ever had
Joanne Lockwood: one or two occasions where someone was
Joanne Lockwood: made a point in one of my training sessions. They objected
Joanne Lockwood: to me using the word cis as a prefix.
Joanne Lockwood: Cis is obviously a trans. And they got
Joanne Lockwood: really empty about that word. And the fact that
Joanne Lockwood: I used gender identity or gender when I should have been talking
Joanne Lockwood: about sex and the Equality Act, and and they said, I don't have a gender
Joanne Lockwood: identity. I said, that's great. I've got a lot of my friends who are non
Joanne Lockwood: binary who don't subscribe to gender either. Fine. That really blew their brains
Joanne Lockwood: out. You know? I was agreeing with them in a in a way. But they
Joanne Lockwood: caught me unawares, and I'll admit now that I had to go out and
Joanne Lockwood: have a have a bit of a toilet break and recompose myself
Joanne Lockwood: because I was not used to dealing with that hostility. But
Joanne Lockwood: what disappointed me most was in a room full of
Joanne Lockwood: people, nobody spoke up.
Joanne Lockwood: Nobody said anything. And afterwards, they all came up to me and said, oh, you
Joanne Lockwood: you okay? Were you okay? Then they they told me this person
Joanne Lockwood: was opinionated or awkward. They had a lot of trouble in the organization. I
Joanne Lockwood: thought someone could have briefed me. Someone could have just mentioned that. Someone could
Joanne Lockwood: have pointed it out. Someone you know, the senior people in that room,
Joanne Lockwood: could have addressed that with that person, and I felt hung out to dry a
Joanne Lockwood: bit. So, yeah, it has happened. But I suppose I'm better prepared because I always
Joanne Lockwood: go into spaces. It's it's the there's a percentage of
Joanne Lockwood: 15%. Fifteen % of people have racist have sexist
Joanne Lockwood: views other than have views that are are off main kilter.
Joanne Lockwood: Look at the bell curve inimality. There's always gonna be the 15% top,
Joanne Lockwood: 15% bottom. So I I always expect getting on a bus.
Joanne Lockwood: There's 15% of the people not gonna like me. Walk into a room, I have
Joanne Lockwood: a hundred people, 15 people in that room are not gonna like me. So I
Joanne Lockwood: go home with that kind of defense mechanism preprimed. And
Joanne Lockwood: most of the time, 99% of the time, it's it's the anxiety that
Joanne Lockwood: that never occurs. And I so I don't let it scare me. I
Joanne Lockwood: manage that anxiety by just knowing that I've got my plan b in my back
Joanne Lockwood: pocket if it happens. Right? Now I can show you my plan b card. I
Joanne Lockwood: know how to deal with that. I've got an exit strategy. And, generally, my
Joanne Lockwood: exit strategy is don't engage the trolls. You know, if you feed the troll, the
Joanne Lockwood: the troll grows. If you give it oxygen, which is what I'm
Joanne Lockwood: saying on TV news sometimes.
Joanne Lockwood: No. One on one, people people don't. I had an incident where someone
Joanne Lockwood: door stopped me. I suppose he was a politician term at a at
Joanne Lockwood: a a festival conference. They wanted my opinion on
Joanne Lockwood: trans people in sport. I'm not a sports person. I don't do
Joanne Lockwood: elite. I don't run. I maybe go do recreational swimming,
Joanne Lockwood: go for, a bit of gym work, but I'm not a sports person. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: have a a strong opinion on on trans competition at
Joanne Lockwood: all. I realize it's polarized. I realized there
Joanne Lockwood: are it's I can produce a report that says this, and you can produce a
Joanne Lockwood: report that says that. And we're arguing scientific reports, and
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know which is best. So this person wanted me to
Joanne Lockwood: acquiesce to their view that it was all wrong. It was cheating. I said, well,
Joanne Lockwood: look. I don't wanna argue with you. I it's not my specialist subject.
Joanne Lockwood: There's there's there's balance of a view here. They go, please. They were
Joanne Lockwood: determined to have an argument with the artist. I don't owe you an argument, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: afraid. I'm sorry. And, talk about something else, but I don't owe you an
Joanne Lockwood: argument, and I'm not gonna argue on this. So, yeah, that that's how I would
Joanne Lockwood: You need to answer on behalf of everybody, isn't it? Sorry. You broke
Joanne Lockwood: up. It's it's kind of like they want you to answer on behalf of the
Nick Elston: whole community. Yeah. You represent every single trans person in the
Joanne Lockwood: world. And, yeah, every every person that you've experienced is different, and it's in the
Joanne Lockwood: same way, your your anxiety or OCD is unique to you,
Joanne Lockwood: how you experienced it. It must have been immensely frustrating for people who
Joanne Lockwood: loved and cared for you or knew you, having a a rational view of
Joanne Lockwood: what you're doing saying, come on, Nick. Can't you see this is
Joanne Lockwood: you know, can't you just hold your breath and try and cure your hiccups? Can't
Joanne Lockwood: you just do everyone everyone's got a cure, haven't they? They have. And I
Nick Elston: think has to be said. I come from a very loving family. I'm very lucky
Nick Elston: that way. Interestingly, my memory isn't great. I,
Nick Elston: I had to look back on NHS records to see kinda, like, the date of
Nick Elston: diagnosis and everything else that happened along the way, and I was speaking to my
Nick Elston: my mom and everything else. So growing up day to day, I can't remember actually
Nick Elston: how it felt. But as I came into the late teens, I I do very
Nick Elston: much remember that because, obviously, it's a very memorable period. But they
Nick Elston: were great. But interestingly, I think, societally, which is why I asked you the question
Nick Elston: about kind of societal kind of expectations, you get labeled
Nick Elston: as something. And we do this, especially with kids. He's a warrior. He's
Nick Elston: sensitive. And, of course, that reaffirms then the belief that I am like that
Nick Elston: anyway. So it becomes kind of just part of the norm and part of what
Nick Elston: you do. When I first started to address this and and, again, for a
Nick Elston: professional help, I actually had to kind of speak to everybody and say, look.
Nick Elston: If I ask you for reassurance once, answer me.
Nick Elston: If I ask you for reassurance again, don't answer me.
Nick Elston: Because if anybody here has had experiences of OCD,
Nick Elston: you'll know that reassurance lasts for about twenty minutes. So
Nick Elston: I think people family have always been very supportive. Obviously, I
Nick Elston: got Teresa, got counseling, everything else in my childhood. But I think it wasn't
Nick Elston: addressed because of just the way that the medical services were not lined up then.
Nick Elston: I mean, I'm 47 now, so this is a long time ago. It was only
Nick Elston: really when I started to address this in 02/2012, I started to make real kind
Nick Elston: of inroads using current day therapy,
Nick Elston: CBT, and lots of other things that are available now that just weren't available mainstream
Nick Elston: then. Do you perceive it was already innate within you and
Joanne Lockwood: there was a trigger event that set it off, or do you think it was
Joanne Lockwood: a alert behavior later in life from a trigger event? Or do you
Joanne Lockwood: think some of your anxiety, some of your upbringing has kind of made you
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerable to to developing this kind of mental health
Joanne Lockwood: challenge? Great question. The trigger point was,
Nick Elston: as I understand it well, obviously, I can't remember before that. But as I
Nick Elston: understand it, the trigger point was the the accident with my my sister and and
Nick Elston: seeing that happen. I would say
Nick Elston: that the the what I call flare ups since in a major
Nick Elston: way have always happened at high points of stress. So there's an element of me
Nick Elston: which kind of feels that maybe that's my default setting that I go straight
Nick Elston: back to that point. It's but it's kind of like the you're trying to control
Nick Elston: everything. And I think, again, that links in with just general
Nick Elston: anxiety. And everybody that, that has that level of anxiety,
Nick Elston: you try and control everything and everyone, and that only compains the level of
Nick Elston: anxiety you're experiencing because you cannot control anybody or anything, and
Nick Elston: the pursuit of doing so will only create extra damage. So it's a
Nick Elston: really interesting one. Maybe that is my default setting. I kind of reference them
Nick Elston: now as Indiana Jones mining cart tracks. They're always there. But if I
Nick Elston: get shunted back onto them, I know it's come back quicker. I say Indiana Jones.
Nick Elston: I mean, I'm back to the exit now. Is that what you're saying? It's like
Joanne Lockwood: a a nineteen eighties computer game where you're trying to wander around trying to find
Joanne Lockwood: the exit, and you know where the exit is. You turn left, turn right, turn
Joanne Lockwood: left, turn right, and there it is. Yeah. I love that reference, Joe. I'm a
Nick Elston: big gamer myself, so I do love that reference. It's really cool. Is that I
Joanne Lockwood: I I was just thinking about my own sort of the way I would handle
Joanne Lockwood: things. And I think over my life, I may have gone through moments in my
Joanne Lockwood: life where I was acquiring stress and pressure, and everything was
Joanne Lockwood: doom and gloom. There's no way out. How do I cope with this? And then
Joanne Lockwood: I think I didn't do what you did, which is write down all these things
Joanne Lockwood: that you worry about and then realize they hadn't happened. I I think my brain
Joanne Lockwood: just was able to go, that's not real. That's not real. That's not
Joanne Lockwood: real. And I I think I've recalibrated my pressure valve, whereas it used to
Joanne Lockwood: have a high tolerance for pressure. And now it it blows really, really quickly. I
Joanne Lockwood: go, not worth it. It's like sticking a knife in a car tire. It just
Joanne Lockwood: deflates quickly, and I'm I have a quick I have a fucking yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't care. I'm out. Just poof. Not playing. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's, it's, allows me to sort of deescalate things very
Joanne Lockwood: quickly. Yeah. I love that. That's really cool. A friend of mine, Zoe,
Nick Elston: she she says, I put it in front of the itty bitty shitty committee.
Joanne Lockwood: And The brain is doing the Got a
Joanne Lockwood: jar of fucks to give, which I I can't get one of them. That's pretty
Nick Elston: cool. I've only got so many, and it's like, for special people, I have a
Joanne Lockwood: a jar of hugs though, as well. So, you know, these are things I wanna
Joanne Lockwood: get. Big fan of hugs. I'm I'm a big fan of that. That's cool. I
Joanne Lockwood: love it. Yeah. I think put it in context that you, you know, when
Joanne Lockwood: you wanna use fucks or spoons or whatever it is, you've only got so much
Joanne Lockwood: you can give without it eating into you, isn't it? You know? I I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: prepared to give you that fuck, I'm afraid. Sorry. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: yours. I don't want it. It's mine. Yeah. There is. But
Nick Elston: I think that takes a level of confidence and self esteem.
Nick Elston: I think when people go through an adversity or a huge period
Nick Elston: of change, I think that actually two of the things that are impacted for a
Nick Elston: lot of people are self esteem and confidence, that not feeling they have the right
Nick Elston: to reserve your fucks in this sense. There's something really empowering about finding
Nick Elston: your voice. I think there's something really empowering about being able to own your story
Nick Elston: in a way that you've taken control of the narrative in that sense.
Nick Elston: I love that. I think that's such a cool thing. And when combined
Nick Elston: with seeing what the value is in your story to other people
Nick Elston: because actually, interestingly, the values of other people may not be something you consider important.
Nick Elston: Maybe it's such a small part of your journey, but when you start to see
Nick Elston: it from an audience perspective, there's something in your experiences, Joe, which really
Nick Elston: resonates with people. And interestingly and, again, this came up in
Nick Elston: conversation yesterday with, with a client that I could deliver the same
Nick Elston: talk to the same audience four times
Nick Elston: and have four different outcomes because if that one person in the
Nick Elston: audience is going through a marital problem, they're gonna pick up on the bit when
Nick Elston: I talk about personal relationships. Next time around, it could be a professional
Nick Elston: problem, and they'll pick up they'll ignore the other bit. So it's it's not about
Nick Elston: what we say to people. Trying to shatter our egos here. It's
Nick Elston: about the receiver. It's about where they are and actually what they wanna pick up
Nick Elston: from there. Yeah. How you make people feel? Yes. Yes. How you
Joanne Lockwood: move them from a to b. It is. And I'm I think I'm the same
Joanne Lockwood: as you. I I stand on the stage, and I've got a start and end,
Joanne Lockwood: and I've got a rough map of how I'm gonna get from start to end.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. A lot of it just depends on who smiles at me. If I say
Joanne Lockwood: something and someone smiles at me, I go, okay. We'll just go into that a
Joanne Lockwood: bit more. I'll talk to you for a bit. And I love that. Someone else
Joanne Lockwood: will smile, and I'll talk to them for a bit. And it's Yeah. Different people
Joanne Lockwood: will smile at different times or not, and you just feed off the audience. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's the important thing. If I've got if I know I've got one
Joanne Lockwood: person listening, I'm gonna keep talking to that one person. Yeah. I think it's
Nick Elston: it's a musician thing. It's like you riff with your content. You you know what's
Nick Elston: allowed in, so you stay in that. And I love that. That's really cool. I
Nick Elston: love that. Yeah. I mean, I've I've I've never done a
Joanne Lockwood: TEDx because you have to learn it off by heart and practice
Joanne Lockwood: it and demo it. I don't do the same talk twice. I mean, I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've got the same themes. I've got my LEGO bricks that I can make a
Joanne Lockwood: fire station out of. But today, I might wanna make a racing car. You know?
Joanne Lockwood: It's still the same bricks. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. TED TED's an interesting
Nick Elston: one. As a disclaimer, I do I do enjoy TED TED Talks, TEDx Talks, but
Nick Elston: they do, as you say, follow the same kind of format and the same kind
Nick Elston: of outcome and stuff. I prefer more free flowing. So in the same way
Nick Elston: that people like Toastmasters have an amazing space in the world for presentation skills and
Nick Elston: stuff, for me, it's it's finding somebody's voice and
Nick Elston: amplifying them. It's not about kind of this conveyor belt of
Nick Elston: making rinse and repeat speakers and and the way that they deliver and the way
Nick Elston: that they format. I'm very much like you, Joe, that I'll have a big
Nick Elston: image behind me on the screen, and then I'll work out where I'm gonna go
Nick Elston: with this when I'm actually in front of people. And I think there's something in
Nick Elston: it as well that you you've probably had the same experience. So there's things in
Nick Elston: my head. Do a lot of thinking when I'm traveling and then creating, like, new
Nick Elston: talks and stuff. And there's something I think this is gonna be brilliant. When I
Nick Elston: say this, it's gonna be such a laugh. Be rolling in the oils. Nothing.
Nick Elston: Tumbleweeds everywhere. And there's things that I've tripped over on the stage, which just
Nick Elston: work because that it just on the and that stays in. So
Nick Elston: that's why I always say that your story is an evolution, that it evolves
Nick Elston: with you and the world and the audience and society and Donald Trump
Nick Elston: and everything else is experiencing in the world right now. They're they're all has an
Nick Elston: element of it changes the way that our story is told. Doesn't make your
Nick Elston: your story wrong. It doesn't make your story disingenuous
Nick Elston: or not original. It just means that you're adapting it
Nick Elston: to where you where your beliefs and where your thoughts and insights are coming from
Nick Elston: there. Yeah. My brain's I I think in in pictures and
Joanne Lockwood: metaphors, which work in my head, they're not always working on people's heads. But I
Joanne Lockwood: I think I was on stage once, and someone asked me this question. So how
Joanne Lockwood: do you handle it when people are
Joanne Lockwood: overenthusiastic or whatever whatever the phrase was? And I said,
Joanne Lockwood: well, I'd rather ride a bucking bronco than drag a nag.
Joanne Lockwood: So at least with a bucking bronco, you've got some energy. You could you can
Joanne Lockwood: work with it. You can tame it. You can you can direct the energy. With
Joanne Lockwood: a nag, just towing it along, you you're doing all the work. It doesn't wanna
Joanne Lockwood: be there. People come up to me after someone and someone, oh, I've written that
Joanne Lockwood: down and drag you know, don't remember my a dragon egg. And it's just something
Joanne Lockwood: that popped into my head when someone asked me a question, and, it's become something
Joanne Lockwood: I I I've used often. I like that. It's not not a
Nick Elston: quote I thought I was gonna get today, but I like those.
Joanne Lockwood: And I don't know about you, but you find yourself using these quotes. You think
Joanne Lockwood: you've made them up, and then other people use them. Have you listened to my
Joanne Lockwood: stuff, or have I listened to your stuff, or was it just a a really
Joanne Lockwood: good conversation? I I quite openly own own my,
Nick Elston: kind of complete copying because they're usually country music songs. I'm a
Nick Elston: huge country music fan. It's kind of my thing. I love, kind of, Nashville and
Nick Elston: everything else. And, so a lot of my quotes and
Nick Elston: talk titles are country music songs. I think, actually, by owning it, I know
Nick Elston: that I'm not certainly not playing any copy of somebody else I've listened to. But
Nick Elston: I think you're right. I think that so the quote that I I love is
Nick Elston: every storm runs out of rain, and and I use that the end of every
Nick Elston: talk. But I kind of make a joke of the fact it's
Nick Elston: not mine. I just it's a great country song by Gary
Nick Elston: Allen. Check it out. But I I think you can have 10
Nick Elston: speakers sharing the same sentiment from the stage and have 10 different impacts
Nick Elston: because it's not about what we say. It's about how we make people feel and
Nick Elston: how you deliver it. And the genuine, authentic,
Nick Elston: vulnerable Joe that's sharing that statement will be very different from
Nick Elston: somebody else. I always kinda liken it to scripted sales calls. No. It's
Nick Elston: just in general. She don't buy into it. You you just you treat her with
Nick Elston: the respect it deserves. Like, usually, you pull the cable out the wall.
Nick Elston: Or you see an amazingly polished speaker at a conference.
Nick Elston: Politicians are great in this. Amazingly polished, but you can't buy into it.
Nick Elston: You can't emotionally buy into it because you just know it's kind of, or
Nick Elston: you see that kind of cell speaker at a conference, and they'll give you an
Nick Elston: amazingly polished talk. They'll run to the back of the room now. There's only 10,000
Nick Elston: pounds. They've lost you because it's disingenuous. And I think
Nick Elston: that's the bit that we need to explore more people like you, Joe, where
Nick Elston: you are leading I call it emotional leadership and emotional
Nick Elston: storytelling. You're taking people on a journey through
Nick Elston: feeling what you're saying, not hearing the words per se. I
Nick Elston: think people will very rarely remember what I've said,
Nick Elston: but they'll know how I make them feel. And that's the bit that sticks with
Nick Elston: people. I don't get a secret. I very rarely rarely remember what I've said myself.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it just it it comes out of a bit. My brain
Joanne Lockwood: comes out of my mouth, but it doesn't go through the memory part. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: just, I've taken to recording. I've got a mic I clip
Joanne Lockwood: onto my lapel sometimes on my dress when I'm speaking, and I I transcribe it
Joanne Lockwood: after, so I can look back and go, oh, that was actually some good stuff
Nick Elston: in there, wasn't it? Something like that. It's a great idea. Because usually I just
Nick Elston: end up slipping the videographer a couple of hundred quid to get the raw
Nick Elston: footage. Actually, re recording my own is a good shout. That's a that's a great
Nick Elston: tip. Yeah. I've got an app on my phone, and I've got a little mic.
Joanne Lockwood: I just clip it on and and just get my phone to record. And then
Joanne Lockwood: I I upload it into AI, and it transcribes it. It comes up with takeaways.
Joanne Lockwood: And I I often give my That's that. Speaker booker I said, you know, I
Joanne Lockwood: I not only talk. I'll give you, an FAQ, a a
Joanne Lockwood: terminology, and a and a and an output, a takeaways from this from my
Joanne Lockwood: talk. Yeah. Go back, drag and drop, puff cut it and paste it into Word,
Joanne Lockwood: PDF it, and send off the speaker book. Yeah. Yeah. Send it to your audience.
Nick Elston: But that's because you're creating an experience. You're not
Nick Elston: just giving a talk. You're creating an experience where people get
Nick Elston: genuine value from that. But, again, you see I mean, you I'm sure you've been
Nick Elston: at these conferences speaking as well. You see so many speakers that just kinda like
Nick Elston: come on and do the slides and the whole Chris Whitty thing and then go
Nick Elston: again. And it's like what actually happened there. But we don't we can't remember
Nick Elston: what he said or what was covered. But, okay, who's next? And I think that's
Nick Elston: why when you get somebody with genuine emotion comes on, it really
Nick Elston: enlivens the room. It really wakes people up because, actually, what you're
Nick Elston: talking about is a human experience. And not people that have had the same
Nick Elston: experience as you very often, but people that want they're just intrigued
Nick Elston: by We have been brought up and
Nick Elston: for generations on storytelling, good and bad, but
Nick Elston: But it's the stories that we tell people. And I think your ability to change
Nick Elston: the dynamic in the room is is absolutely a superpower because
Nick Elston: you know it's true. When we've been in the open plan office and that really
Nick Elston: angry person walks in, that stuff ripples. When really happy person walks in, that
Nick Elston: stuff ripples. You can change the environment with your words immediately, but it's
Nick Elston: the emotion that really people tune into. That's what they feel. Yeah. I can't wait
Nick Elston: to see one of your talks, no joke. Well, when we when we hang up
Joanne Lockwood: this, we'll have to exchange some notes. Maybe we'll collaborate on something. Sounds good. Do
Nick Elston: talk about that. Yeah. Nick, it's been an absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating chat in a way, and, Love that. Thank you. It's nice to find a
Joanne Lockwood: kindred spirit, and Yeah. We share a lot of common
Joanne Lockwood: values, beliefs, and thoughts. And, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: and thank you for going deep on your mental health and your OCD. And I've
Joanne Lockwood: I have to admit, I was a bit curious, and I I I thank
Joanne Lockwood: your vulnerability for sharing it with me and the audience. So, yeah, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. Bye bye. Likewise, Joe. Thank you. Lovely to meet you as well, and and
Nick Elston: thanks to everybody else for tuning in as well. Who can get ahold of you?
Nick Elston: Nice and simple, just like me. B w w nick elston dot com. You'll find
Nick Elston: everything on there. I'm not on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just if you are on
Nick Elston: LinkedIn, you can connect me with me on there for sure. And also
Joanne Lockwood: look up your articles on HR's own training zone and publications such as that. Yeah.
Nick Elston: Absolutely. Yeah. Stay tuned for those, and I'll be digging a bit deeper into your
Nick Elston: archive as well. So I really like the cut of your chip.
Joanne Lockwood: Excellent. Let's get to easy turn as well. Carry on, Phil. Nick,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you. Thank you. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear
Joanne Lockwood: and heart to the cause of inclusion. If
Joanne Lockwood: today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to
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Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.