WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:19.205 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:23.425 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 5 00:00:23.425 --> 00:00:27.265 wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not 6 00:00:27.265 --> 00:00:30.550 only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.149 alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:38.629 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:42.465 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.465 --> 00:00:46.385 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.385 --> 00:00:49.925 connect, reflect, and inspire action 12 00:00:49.985 --> 00:00:53.684 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.745 --> 00:00:55.344 too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.320 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to 15 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.700 share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:07.160 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:10.860 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.625 --> 00:01:17.765 And today is episode 160 19 00:01:18.465 --> 00:01:22.085 with the title, the power of honest storytelling. 20 00:01:23.025 --> 00:01:26.805 I like it. Absolute honor and privilege to welcome Nick Elston. 21 00:01:27.670 --> 00:01:31.350 Nick is a keynote speaker, a transformational speaking 22 00:01:31.350 --> 00:01:35.190 coach, and founder of Forging People. And 23 00:01:35.190 --> 00:01:38.950 he's dedicated to empowering individuals to embrace their voice, share their 24 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:42.545 stories, and foster meaningful connections through authentic 25 00:01:42.765 --> 00:01:46.545 communication. When I asked Nick to describe his superpower, 26 00:01:47.005 --> 00:01:51.005 he said that it is turning vulnerability into a 27 00:01:51.005 --> 00:01:54.305 powerful tool for connection and transformation. 28 00:01:54.685 --> 00:01:58.530 Hello, Nick. Welcome to the show. Hey, Joe. It's great to be here. Thank you 29 00:01:58.530 --> 00:02:02.130 for asking me. Yeah. And we were just chatting just now, and, 30 00:02:02.690 --> 00:02:06.450 we worked out that we'd, we both write for HR's own and 31 00:02:06.450 --> 00:02:10.034 ask how how we connected. Yeah. We do. Great 32 00:02:10.034 --> 00:02:13.575 publication, and great to have met you along the way as well. 33 00:02:14.275 --> 00:02:18.194 18, we worked out from the from the LinkedIn connection buttons. A 34 00:02:18.194 --> 00:02:20.855 long time in the making, but I sure will make this worth it. 35 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.200 We'll figure it out. Yes. I I think back in the early days when I 36 00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:29.200 I just started in this field, I was clicking and connect on everybody that you 37 00:02:29.200 --> 00:02:32.900 can find. So, yeah, there's probably a Well, I'm gonna pop you a random button. 38 00:02:33.795 --> 00:02:36.515 Yeah. I now use AI tools too for me, so I don't have to worry 39 00:02:36.515 --> 00:02:40.275 about it. Yeah. Yeah. We've called this episode the power of honest 40 00:02:40.275 --> 00:02:43.955 storytelling and, you know, looking at your what you do and your 41 00:02:43.955 --> 00:02:47.190 superpower. How is the the storytelling 42 00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:51.650 being built for you, and what's the authenticity and the 43 00:02:51.650 --> 00:02:55.410 vulnerability? Yeah. Yeah. How do you use that as a strength? I think for me, 44 00:02:55.410 --> 00:02:59.250 it comes from my own my own personal journey. So for context, the the nutshell 45 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:02.825 version, I have mental illness. I have obsessive compulsive disorder, 46 00:03:02.825 --> 00:03:06.505 which largely is managed nowadays, but I developed it back in my 47 00:03:06.505 --> 00:03:10.505 childhood. And as I got older, left pretty much untreated because I am that 48 00:03:10.505 --> 00:03:13.620 old. It was wasn't something that was treated the way it would be now. It 49 00:03:13.700 --> 00:03:17.239 then morphed into something called generalized anxiety disorder or GAD. 50 00:03:17.860 --> 00:03:21.400 And as I got older, it started to kind of really take over my life. 51 00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:25.620 In my professional career, I was running for around a decade at 52 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.695 a really high state of burnout. And then I had a breakdown in 53 00:03:28.695 --> 00:03:32.455 02/2012. And it was at that point I started to use 54 00:03:32.455 --> 00:03:35.755 speaking as a therapy. And what I found was, 55 00:03:36.535 --> 00:03:40.455 being able to share your experiences and your story and your 56 00:03:40.455 --> 00:03:44.360 thoughts and your insights. And bearing in mind, I did this initially 57 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:47.880 in a professional environment. We didn't do that in 58 00:03:47.880 --> 00:03:51.880 02/2012. What I found was, despite what you hear on the 59 00:03:51.880 --> 00:03:55.880 news and popular media and social media, humans are essentially good. Go figure. Who 60 00:03:55.880 --> 00:03:59.785 knew? Humans do wanna support you if you only tell them what you need. 61 00:03:59.785 --> 00:04:03.305 And what I found was by sharing my experiences with them in a, again, in 62 00:04:03.305 --> 00:04:07.305 a professional environment, people started sharing their stuff with me. And 63 00:04:07.305 --> 00:04:11.060 I think for me, that's kinda where I learned that speaking without the 64 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:14.819 filter, speaking with authenticity and vulnerability, and why has that been hugely 65 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:18.760 hijacked since, to be fair? It builds a bridge of trust and connection 66 00:04:18.820 --> 00:04:22.520 and depth with people far more than any superficial message 67 00:04:22.825 --> 00:04:26.285 were ever trained to deliver in professional environments for sure. 68 00:04:26.905 --> 00:04:29.945 That's where it started for me. I started to speak more and more about my 69 00:04:29.945 --> 00:04:33.465 experiences. The rooms got bigger. The audiences got bigger. I started to travel the world 70 00:04:33.465 --> 00:04:36.700 doing this stuff, and the rest, they say, is history. But along the way, and 71 00:04:36.700 --> 00:04:40.540 in this spirit of honesty, you can only spend so long speaking about your 72 00:04:40.540 --> 00:04:44.300 story, especially professionally when it really took off before your 73 00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:48.060 story starts to own you again. And that's when I started to coach other people 74 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:51.915 to share their stories. And that's really what's thrown me into the world that 75 00:04:51.915 --> 00:04:55.675 you operate in, into the realm of other people's experiences and 76 00:04:55.675 --> 00:04:59.675 how we can be defined by those stories as a 77 00:04:59.675 --> 00:05:03.595 negative force, or actually we they can be a catalyst for positive change, and that's 78 00:05:03.595 --> 00:05:06.900 where it started for me. I hear you what you're saying there in terms of 79 00:05:06.900 --> 00:05:10.820 if you keep telling that story, it becomes all of you. If you don't care 80 00:05:10.820 --> 00:05:14.340 for it, you end up living in the past because often these stories are 81 00:05:14.340 --> 00:05:18.340 historical. And there's a an old adage, isn't it? You speak from the scar, not 82 00:05:18.340 --> 00:05:20.660 from the wound, so you have to be kind of in a good place to 83 00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:24.285 talk about it. Yep. But I I go through phases of of telling my story, 84 00:05:24.285 --> 00:05:27.165 my journey, my canon, if you like, you know, where I came from and how 85 00:05:27.165 --> 00:05:31.025 I'm who I am, who I am. And over time, if you're not careful, 86 00:05:31.805 --> 00:05:34.544 it it does. It drags you back ten years. 87 00:05:35.770 --> 00:05:39.690 And sometimes it's hard to remember the story of the inaccuracy, 88 00:05:39.690 --> 00:05:43.690 so you have to use a facsimile of your story that 89 00:05:43.690 --> 00:05:47.690 is relevant to the audience without necessarily being the 90 00:05:47.690 --> 00:05:51.525 whole truth and nothing about the truth. A good illustration, and 91 00:05:51.525 --> 00:05:55.525 you're pulling out key points, aren't you? So You're That's the challenge for people, I 92 00:05:55.525 --> 00:05:59.525 guess. It is a challenge. And don't get me wrong. I still very much 93 00:05:59.525 --> 00:06:03.240 use my platform, whether it be from the stage or from writing, 94 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:07.060 as therapy. It makes HR people very nervous, but it's very 95 00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:09.940 real. I will share what's going through my head right now in front of a 96 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:13.860 live audience. I think it's a really healthy thing. But that being said, as 97 00:06:13.860 --> 00:06:17.824 you say, actually, the further you come away from your story, your experiences, 98 00:06:17.884 --> 00:06:21.565 especially if it's a, it's a real kind of big, kind of 99 00:06:21.565 --> 00:06:25.485 powerful, impactful moment in your life, you do see it very differently. The 100 00:06:25.485 --> 00:06:29.485 context kind of changes. I think also because our lives have 101 00:06:29.485 --> 00:06:33.300 other parts and players as well. So when you first start sharing your experiences, you're 102 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:37.220 kind of respectful of other people's thoughts on these things, that the 103 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:41.140 story can impact other people. That changes too the more that we 104 00:06:41.140 --> 00:06:45.075 get used to being more vulnerable. I guess my rule of thumb on 105 00:06:45.075 --> 00:06:48.695 this is to treat your story as an evolution. 106 00:06:49.075 --> 00:06:52.995 So the same story that I told as therapy 107 00:06:52.995 --> 00:06:56.860 in 2,012 is the same story I get paid to speak 108 00:06:56.860 --> 00:07:00.220 all over the world delivering now. The one difference is it's changed with time. It's 109 00:07:00.220 --> 00:07:03.440 changed with me. It's changed with experiences, with learnings, with connections. 110 00:07:04.380 --> 00:07:08.235 So if we start to see our story as a work in progress, we're not 111 00:07:08.235 --> 00:07:12.155 constantly kind of reaffirming the story that we told initially. Yeah. 112 00:07:12.155 --> 00:07:16.015 No. I I yeah. It it it's also hard to keep telling the it could 113 00:07:16.235 --> 00:07:19.435 be quite boring telling the same story. You take oh, here we go again. Here's 114 00:07:19.435 --> 00:07:22.155 my life. You know? I wanna spice it up a bit, or this time I'll 115 00:07:22.155 --> 00:07:25.490 put that in there. Sometimes it depends on who you're talking to and and why 116 00:07:25.490 --> 00:07:28.930 you're there and what they wanna hear, doesn't it? It does. And I think this 117 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.850 is the thing you see, that, no one cares as much as we think they 118 00:07:32.850 --> 00:07:35.810 do. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, that you could be the 119 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:39.785 most exciting a list celebrity, but after fifteen minutes of talking 120 00:07:39.785 --> 00:07:42.825 to an audience, they're gonna wanna know what's in it for them. And I think 121 00:07:42.825 --> 00:07:46.665 that's kind of the thing, really, is you're when you're when you're telling your 122 00:07:46.665 --> 00:07:50.505 story, it's about it's about showcasing the 123 00:07:50.505 --> 00:07:54.270 value of your experiences, not just your experiences. So, 124 00:07:54.270 --> 00:07:58.110 for example, whether it's through mental illness, transitioning, whatever 125 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:01.950 your experience has been in life, people don't really wanna be walked through those 126 00:08:01.950 --> 00:08:05.550 things, really. What they do wanna know is how did it impact you, how did 127 00:08:05.550 --> 00:08:09.355 it inspire you, how did it affect other people. They wanna have the 128 00:08:09.355 --> 00:08:13.275 experience of going through those challenges without having to relive the the bits that 129 00:08:13.275 --> 00:08:17.275 are already paying for in that sense. And I think once we start to do 130 00:08:17.275 --> 00:08:21.275 that, and I like to see it as if you were to write the story 131 00:08:21.275 --> 00:08:24.780 of your life, about 14 sides of a 132 00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:28.780 four is a fifty minute keynote. And 14 sides of a 133 00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:32.299 four is 14 chapters, 14 chapters as a book, a book as a business. You 134 00:08:32.299 --> 00:08:35.500 never know when this stuff goes. But a great exercise for all of your kind 135 00:08:35.500 --> 00:08:39.334 of viewers and listeners right now, write the story of your life. But I 136 00:08:39.334 --> 00:08:42.774 don't want you to write it from a first person perspective, not I did this 137 00:08:42.774 --> 00:08:46.214 and this happened to me. I want you to write it as if Morgan Freeman 138 00:08:46.214 --> 00:08:50.070 were narrating your life. And how cool would that be, by the way? So 139 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:54.070 as if a narrator were were actually kind of speaking about you, then 140 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:58.070 you start to see the value of your experiences to your audience, and that's for 141 00:08:58.070 --> 00:09:01.990 me, it's the difference. That also protects you emotionally as well. So 142 00:09:01.990 --> 00:09:05.905 many people decide to share their story, and it's so vulnerable, and 143 00:09:05.905 --> 00:09:09.665 it's so painful for that person to deliver it because they're not doing it from 144 00:09:09.665 --> 00:09:13.265 an audience perspective. They're doing it purely from a first person 145 00:09:13.265 --> 00:09:16.865 perspective. And I like that. And I think that tunes 146 00:09:16.865 --> 00:09:20.580 into something my nan used to tell me growing up that if everybody put their 147 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:23.700 problems into the middle of the room, you'd end up picking your own back because 148 00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:26.920 you never know what other stuff what other stuff is going on with other people. 149 00:09:27.060 --> 00:09:30.980 And especially in professional environments because we mask it. How are you? Great. Thanks. 150 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:34.875 How are you? Tell people to try telling people you feel rubbish. 151 00:09:34.935 --> 00:09:38.935 See how fast they run. Well, I think I've noticed in the, in the space, 152 00:09:38.935 --> 00:09:42.395 the EDI space, the speaking space, whatever, you know, where we both coexist, 153 00:09:43.575 --> 00:09:47.015 is that having a story or having a back you know, having a canon or 154 00:09:47.015 --> 00:09:50.730 whatever is an end to the club because 155 00:09:50.730 --> 00:09:54.250 I've realized that people have I'm far more willing to share their 156 00:09:54.250 --> 00:09:58.029 vulnerability, their their deepest secrets, their their pain points, everything, 157 00:09:58.170 --> 00:10:02.135 really authentically and really vulnerably because I 158 00:10:02.135 --> 00:10:05.735 I come with my own membership card to that 159 00:10:05.735 --> 00:10:09.495 club. I was, you know, in the past, you know, you you described 160 00:10:09.495 --> 00:10:13.014 yourself as a 47 year old white man at the beginning of this show or 161 00:10:13.014 --> 00:10:16.940 or just before we went online. I I was in that 162 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:20.860 position thirteen years ago. I'm now a a 60 year old woman 163 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:24.779 with a trans history and a previous existence. And 164 00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:28.160 in my old life, I didn't have a membership card to the vulnerability 165 00:10:28.700 --> 00:10:32.685 sort of power. Yeah. People would I I'd just be seen as 166 00:10:32.685 --> 00:10:36.525 a voyeur. But now I meet people, and I understand marginalization. I 167 00:10:36.525 --> 00:10:40.365 understand the frustration of not having access to things, being 168 00:10:40.365 --> 00:10:44.170 denied things, being picked on, being bullied or abused or 169 00:10:44.170 --> 00:10:47.930 whatever it may be. And I can relate to someone who is a person of 170 00:10:47.930 --> 00:10:51.690 color, black, some person with disability. Obviously, I don't have their 171 00:10:51.690 --> 00:10:55.635 story. I I have that empathy bridge where I can go, I 172 00:10:55.635 --> 00:10:58.755 get it. I get what you mean by vulnerability. They look back at me. They 173 00:10:58.755 --> 00:11:02.675 go, I know you get it. So that shared experience, isn't it? It 174 00:11:02.675 --> 00:11:06.275 is. I think that the first ten seconds of any interaction with 175 00:11:06.275 --> 00:11:09.655 anybody, the two things that people strive for are commonality and community. 176 00:11:10.170 --> 00:11:13.850 Why are you like me? Even if you seem completely worlds apart, why are you 177 00:11:13.850 --> 00:11:17.450 like me? And what value is it gonna be for us to have this 178 00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:21.370 conversation, this talk, this keynote, whatever that thing is? I think that's a really important 179 00:11:21.370 --> 00:11:24.745 thing to master, and I think you're quite right. There is a there's a common 180 00:11:24.745 --> 00:11:28.425 thread between a lot of issues that we experience in life, whether it 181 00:11:28.425 --> 00:11:32.125 be mental illness or pronouns, identity, transitioning, 182 00:11:32.185 --> 00:11:36.105 race, culture, sexuality. There's so many things that make us diverse and 183 00:11:36.105 --> 00:11:39.404 varied in life. The common fact factor for me is belonging, 184 00:11:40.130 --> 00:11:44.130 And it's essentially kind of a big reason why I do what I do 185 00:11:44.130 --> 00:11:47.970 now is that it affects our sense of belonging enough to feel that 186 00:11:47.970 --> 00:11:51.890 we're marginalized enough to not have a platform, to not have a voice, to 187 00:11:51.890 --> 00:11:55.754 not feel that we can step up. So for me, belonging is a common 188 00:11:55.754 --> 00:11:59.274 thread in all this. People that have not always had the platform to 189 00:11:59.274 --> 00:12:03.134 speak. And we can break this down into even just into the 190 00:12:03.514 --> 00:12:07.274 the the man woman approach as well that why is it that Find Your Voice, 191 00:12:07.274 --> 00:12:10.920 the the conference that I run, that 80 to 90% are 192 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:14.600 women, but then when we turn up at the conference events where it's 193 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.600 stadium and conference hall events, still most of the speakers are 194 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.980 90% male. There are disconnects everywhere. 195 00:12:22.445 --> 00:12:26.365 And the only way that we correct disconnects is by stepping 196 00:12:26.365 --> 00:12:30.125 up, creating a platform, and finding our voices. So more 197 00:12:30.125 --> 00:12:34.125 power to your elbow, to the other people that speak about culture and race and 198 00:12:34.125 --> 00:12:37.980 sexuality and all these other things that other people need to know about. But I 199 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:41.519 think there's a there's a real big fear that we are losing 200 00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:45.500 the ability to ask questions from those people as well. So 201 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:49.420 people that are not through going through the experiences that 202 00:12:49.420 --> 00:12:53.135 other people have gone through, I think fueled by cancel culture and something we 203 00:12:53.135 --> 00:12:56.335 spoke briefly about before we hit record on this. I think we're really afraid of 204 00:12:56.335 --> 00:13:00.175 asking questions for the fear of being canceled or being ashamed or or just saying 205 00:13:00.175 --> 00:13:03.955 the wrong thing. And I think that's something we we need to 206 00:13:04.015 --> 00:13:07.690 maintain, the ability to ask better questions. I guarantee you 207 00:13:07.690 --> 00:13:11.050 that so much I don't understand in this world because it's just not been my 208 00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:14.810 experience. So you either blindly agree, not 209 00:13:14.810 --> 00:13:18.730 knowing what you're agreeing with, or you blindly disagree where all your 210 00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:22.565 old generational biases run wild. Both are equally 211 00:13:22.565 --> 00:13:26.325 damaging. For me, the bit in the middle is find people that have lived this, 212 00:13:26.325 --> 00:13:30.005 find people that know this stuff, and ask them for a genuine need to 213 00:13:30.005 --> 00:13:33.685 educate or to be curious. And I guarantee, Joe, I've not been punched 214 00:13:33.685 --> 00:13:37.240 once. So that's a good sign. There's thousands of conversations about where people that are 215 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.920 not like me not been punched once. So that's my recommendation to everybody. I 216 00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:44.460 mean, I'm I'm I'm the first to admit I have an opinion on most things, 217 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.760 but I also realized that my opinion isn't always safe. I appreciate 218 00:13:48.760 --> 00:13:52.235 that it's my opinion. And there are certain things I I don't want to have 219 00:13:52.235 --> 00:13:56.235 an opinion on, and it frustrates the the pajesus out of people. When I 220 00:13:56.235 --> 00:13:59.514 I say, I'm sorry. I don't really have an opinion on that. And they say, 221 00:13:59.514 --> 00:14:02.350 well, you must have an opinion. You must have thought. I said, well, I do 222 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:06.350 have some biases. I have some stereotypes, and I have some stories I could tell 223 00:14:06.350 --> 00:14:10.270 you about it. But, really, I persuade me to give me give me 224 00:14:10.270 --> 00:14:14.190 your thoughts. I I don't have a strong enough view to wanna express it 225 00:14:14.190 --> 00:14:17.805 to anybody. I think what happens in the world at the moment is 226 00:14:18.425 --> 00:14:22.345 everybody is just feels licensed to express their opinions whether 227 00:14:22.345 --> 00:14:26.345 they're safe or not. I think you're right. I think there's it's the 228 00:14:26.345 --> 00:14:30.240 reason I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Instagram. I'm not on Twitter stroke x, 229 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:34.240 whatever it's called at the moment. I'm only on LinkedIn, and that's kind of where 230 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.920 I hang out. Because of that very reason, I think there's so many 231 00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:41.920 platforms, which and it was interesting. There was a Harvard study done this many 232 00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:45.435 years ago that between 18 and 29 year olds, social media was the biggest source 233 00:14:45.435 --> 00:14:49.295 of anxiety. But in the same survey with the same demographic demographic 234 00:14:49.595 --> 00:14:53.195 from a mental health perspective, it was a bigger source of positive community for mental 235 00:14:53.195 --> 00:14:56.880 health. So, actually, it's not the platforms per se. It's our immersion, 236 00:14:56.880 --> 00:15:00.880 our engagement in those platforms. People don't immerse well. They 237 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:04.800 will end up doomscrolling or feeling worse. And that's why I left in 238 00:15:04.800 --> 00:15:08.720 May 2020. I decided to leave social media. This was 239 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.715 just after the pandemic and everything else, had started. And people that I 240 00:15:12.715 --> 00:15:15.755 knew for decades were falling out on a public timeline, and there were really strong 241 00:15:15.755 --> 00:15:18.955 opinions flying around everywhere. I thought, I'm out. If you pick up your phone and 242 00:15:18.955 --> 00:15:22.795 twenty minutes later feel worse, that's not a good place to be. And I 243 00:15:22.795 --> 00:15:26.740 never went back. And I still exist commercially and personally, which is a 244 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:29.460 good thing. People think you don't exist if you're not on those things. But I 245 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:33.240 think you're right. It gives people a platform to share opinions that 246 00:15:33.620 --> 00:15:37.080 okay. People are people are, I guess, entitled to an opinion. 247 00:15:37.695 --> 00:15:41.075 But it's how we decide to immerse in those things. If we feel 248 00:15:41.295 --> 00:15:44.975 sensitive about something, we will immerse ourselves in that 249 00:15:44.975 --> 00:15:48.895 thing, and we damage ourselves. Or the other effect is 250 00:15:48.895 --> 00:15:52.649 the echo chamber effect where we just surround ourselves with people like us and take 251 00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:55.529 that approach that you're either with me or against me kind of mentality, which to 252 00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:59.390 me, again, is equally damaging. So social media is an interesting one for sure. 253 00:16:00.089 --> 00:16:03.470 Yeah. I'll take your opinion on something because, 254 00:16:04.042 --> 00:16:06.715 I don't know if you noticed but or realized, but I I I do some 255 00:16:06.715 --> 00:16:10.495 guest appearances on GB News, which is I did all know that. 256 00:16:10.715 --> 00:16:14.235 Yeah. Well, it's it's kind of as toxic as you as you get from a 257 00:16:14.235 --> 00:16:17.995 from a an EDI professional, from a trans woman's perspective. And people 258 00:16:17.995 --> 00:16:21.620 criticize me for feeding the beast, if you like. 259 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.660 My my view is that if I'm not in the room, 260 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:30.640 they can have that conversation anyway. Am I adding credibility to it being 261 00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:34.160 there, or am I taking the opportunity to say, hang on a 262 00:16:34.160 --> 00:16:38.065 minute. Here's another alternative opinion. And that's my view. 263 00:16:38.065 --> 00:16:41.985 So my my view is always go into the room, be a voice of 264 00:16:41.985 --> 00:16:45.904 alternative in a very measured, very balanced, very calm, very 265 00:16:45.904 --> 00:16:49.540 rational way just to counteract the myths because my rationalization 266 00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:53.600 is I'll I'll go anywhere toxic if I'm given a microphone and 267 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.480 and and will be heard, even if I'm shouted down or abused while I'm on 268 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:00.019 the stage, which has happened, just purely because 269 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.325 there are people in the room who aren't 270 00:17:04.325 --> 00:17:08.244 hard right, hard left, hard ingrained, and 271 00:17:08.244 --> 00:17:11.845 they they're open to hearing a different view. And I think we we owe it 272 00:17:11.845 --> 00:17:15.605 to those people to give them another voice, and that that's that's why I do 273 00:17:15.605 --> 00:17:19.099 it. So I don't know if you you've ever been in that situation where you've, 274 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:23.580 had to walk away. Firstly, I admire your strength and resilience 275 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.320 because in the spirit of honesty, the and, again, we spoke about it before for 276 00:17:27.320 --> 00:17:31.195 a publication I used to write for. It was it was an extremely 277 00:17:31.255 --> 00:17:35.175 kind of toxic forum to the extent of our post around mental 278 00:17:35.175 --> 00:17:38.215 health, and somebody would say, I don't believe in mental health. I mean, what the 279 00:17:38.215 --> 00:17:40.455 hell does that mean? I mean, that's all something we haven't got time to go 280 00:17:40.455 --> 00:17:44.040 through right now. But but it's, and I withdrew myself from that. So, actually, I 281 00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:47.560 I would say this was many years ago, but I admire your strength and courage 282 00:17:47.560 --> 00:17:51.560 to do that. I personally I would say, like, I'm a reformed people pleaser, but 283 00:17:51.560 --> 00:17:55.395 I still get quite sensitive. And I think because I've built a business that's 284 00:17:55.395 --> 00:17:59.155 based on me, my personal story and stuff, I'm quite sensitive to 285 00:17:59.155 --> 00:18:03.155 that. But I do agree there are environments that are, I 286 00:18:03.155 --> 00:18:07.155 would say, comparable to what you're doing, whereas I will go and work for a 287 00:18:07.155 --> 00:18:10.950 large organization, get asked to speak to their teams and staff. 288 00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:14.070 And I know they're doing it as a tick box exercise. I know there will 289 00:18:14.070 --> 00:18:17.590 be pushback. I know there will be people in that room that are usually and 290 00:18:17.590 --> 00:18:21.590 again, without stereotyping, but generally, it's true. It's the the kind 291 00:18:21.590 --> 00:18:25.429 of the the middle aged, or just older than me, maybe male suited, 292 00:18:25.429 --> 00:18:29.245 booted, arms folded at the back. They're gonna be the people that are 293 00:18:29.245 --> 00:18:32.685 gonna say we don't wanna engage in this stuff. But I'd like you were saying, 294 00:18:32.685 --> 00:18:36.685 I'd much rather be there affecting potentially one person than not 295 00:18:36.685 --> 00:18:40.305 be there at all. And I think that's that's the bit that you're doing brilliantly 296 00:18:40.445 --> 00:18:44.100 well is that you're actually staying in that space. 297 00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:47.940 But interestingly, those arms folded, middle aged white guys 298 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:51.460 usually, will come up to be afterwards and be the first people to open up 299 00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:54.820 about their challenges. They don't wanna talk an open forum, but they very much wanna 300 00:18:54.820 --> 00:18:58.675 talk in a private format. But I think that comes from vulnerability as well that 301 00:18:58.675 --> 00:19:01.975 if you share your experiences and your insights and your stories 302 00:19:03.235 --> 00:19:07.155 unfiltered with honesty, you build trust and rapport with 303 00:19:07.155 --> 00:19:11.140 people instantly to the extent that I can walk in, and an hour later, I've 304 00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:14.980 got somebody opening up about their life experiences to me. It's an amazing thing. So 305 00:19:14.980 --> 00:19:18.679 I think that's where, again, my vulnerability rocks, and you will be impacting 306 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:22.735 people by what you do on TV news. Yeah. And 307 00:19:22.735 --> 00:19:26.735 I echo what you're saying about the the arms folded people in the 308 00:19:26.735 --> 00:19:30.655 room. And I've I've had clients brief me beforehand saying, oh, you got 309 00:19:30.655 --> 00:19:34.015 this person, this person, and this person. They're they're really kind of hard to deal 310 00:19:34.015 --> 00:19:37.590 with, and, you know, they're gonna be really argumentative and pushback, doubting 311 00:19:37.590 --> 00:19:41.270 all this. Okay. That's fine. Is it you you know what I was? No. 312 00:19:41.270 --> 00:19:44.650 No. No. No. Because in my experience, what I found is, as you said, 313 00:19:45.110 --> 00:19:48.490 these people are the ones that wear change you know, you turn on lights. And 314 00:19:48.790 --> 00:19:52.435 I always frame my my training, my talking is I I'm never here to tell 315 00:19:52.435 --> 00:19:55.555 you what to do, what to think, what to say. That's for you. Change has 316 00:19:55.555 --> 00:19:59.235 to occur in you. All I wanna do is turn some lights on, push the 317 00:19:59.235 --> 00:20:02.835 button, and encourage you to think. And if that if you come away from it 318 00:20:02.835 --> 00:20:06.700 thinking that you don't agree with me, that's fine. I don't have to be right. 319 00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:10.620 I talk about perspectives and opinions, and I'm very honest to say that what 320 00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:13.899 I'm trying to do now is sell you my opinion. You have the right to 321 00:20:13.899 --> 00:20:17.820 choose to to adopt it or not adopt it. So I can't tell you to 322 00:20:17.820 --> 00:20:21.200 challenge your own views and opinions than by telling you mine. 323 00:20:22.105 --> 00:20:25.804 And you find that these people warm to you, and I'd say the the most 324 00:20:26.345 --> 00:20:29.465 the people you think are gonna be the most the toughest audience are actually the 325 00:20:29.465 --> 00:20:32.684 pussycats. Or if if they aren't entrenched, 326 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.800 they do some of my job for me because they asked these pretty direct off 327 00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:41.800 off the wall questions. And the whole room's going, blimey. I'm glad 328 00:20:41.800 --> 00:20:45.400 I'm not I'm glad I'm more enlightened than they are. Yeah. And so 329 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.520 sometimes they do my job for me by by coming out with those tough questions. 330 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:52.495 But, no, I've always found that most people, as you say, set off 331 00:20:52.495 --> 00:20:55.855 by being kind. Nobody grows up or wants to be a dick. And, generally, they 332 00:20:55.855 --> 00:20:58.975 don't wanna look like a dick in the middle of the room. Exactly. And they 333 00:20:58.975 --> 00:21:02.910 do come up afterwards and say, thank you. I've really learned something. Because 334 00:21:02.910 --> 00:21:06.910 you're talking about something which is either sensitive to them or 335 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:10.850 something which even can be considered as a taboo. There's so much generational 336 00:21:10.990 --> 00:21:14.350 stuff that's been handed down to us as taboo. I mean, even things like grief. 337 00:21:14.350 --> 00:21:17.985 I mean, later on today, I'm running a webinar with a a counselor on 338 00:21:17.985 --> 00:21:21.745 on grief. And even with things like grief in the workplace, it's still 339 00:21:21.745 --> 00:21:25.585 taboo. Why is grief a a taboo element? And the only way that you tackle 340 00:21:25.585 --> 00:21:29.365 these taboos is what you're doing is you're going in, sharing a story, sharing experiences. 341 00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:33.480 And I love the fact that what you're saying is very much like myself. You're 342 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:36.920 not solution focused in the way that you've got to do this. This is gonna 343 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.760 help you. This is gonna fix you. This is gonna make you understand. You're giving 344 00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:44.545 people the ammunition to ask better questions of themselves. And I 345 00:21:44.545 --> 00:21:48.545 think that's where it stems from. As you say, nobody kind of grows nobody 346 00:21:48.545 --> 00:21:52.405 grows up as a clean slate with that intention to be a dick to people, 347 00:21:52.465 --> 00:21:56.280 but that's usually been handed handed down just a generational belief. 348 00:21:56.280 --> 00:21:58.840 And, also, it doesn't mean to say that they're wrong. It just needs to they 349 00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:02.520 need to change the way that they think and feel and understand other 350 00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:06.440 people's experiences and not like theirs. I have people sort of come up 351 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.225 to me and say, I I I don't get trans. I don't get 352 00:22:10.225 --> 00:22:13.684 non binary. And I go, that's okay. I don't either. I don't understand. 353 00:22:14.385 --> 00:22:18.225 If I could explain it and bottle it, I could flog it, but I 354 00:22:18.225 --> 00:22:22.000 don't understand it. All I can do is rationalize and say, I just am. I 355 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.720 don't understand what it's like to be transmasculine. I don't understand what it's like to 356 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.840 be non binary because that's not my lived experience. I can tell you how I 357 00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:31.840 feel about me. You know? A sample size of one, I 358 00:22:31.840 --> 00:22:35.200 can't argue about whether it's right, wrong, indifferent 359 00:22:35.805 --> 00:22:39.325 I can't give you a medical explanation. All I can say is there's some sort 360 00:22:39.325 --> 00:22:43.325 of neurodivergence where my brain is wired, and this makes sense. 361 00:22:43.325 --> 00:22:47.165 I can't expect any further than that. So I think when people try and 362 00:22:47.165 --> 00:22:50.860 ask me to prove, I go, well, there is no proof. It it just is. 363 00:22:50.860 --> 00:22:54.860 Like many things, there's no How they kinda come to you kind of they come 364 00:22:54.860 --> 00:22:58.860 to you to feel that, right, okay, prove me wrong, kind 365 00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:02.060 of mentality. It's like kind of very often if I take to the stage, like, 366 00:23:02.060 --> 00:23:05.975 they look at me like, okay, beardy boy, entertain me. Woah. 367 00:23:07.235 --> 00:23:10.835 Hopefully, I will, but that's not exactly what I meant, just to entertain you. I 368 00:23:10.835 --> 00:23:14.595 think it's but I think that's an expectation thing. And and 369 00:23:14.595 --> 00:23:18.150 also, I like to explore, and I like the dynamics 370 00:23:18.290 --> 00:23:22.050 of delivering at a mandatory session as 371 00:23:22.050 --> 00:23:25.810 opposed to one that people of of their food choice. That's an interesting 372 00:23:25.810 --> 00:23:29.650 dynamic twist as well. Because actually what you find is that you 373 00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:33.515 have to I used to run pubs and clubs back in the day, and I 374 00:23:33.515 --> 00:23:37.295 was always told to train in my security training, go for the biggest guy first. 375 00:23:38.475 --> 00:23:42.255 So I I kinda take that same same approach now to to audiences. 376 00:23:42.649 --> 00:23:45.210 So if there is that one Gobby one or the one that's shouting at you 377 00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:48.169 a day or the one that they aren't folded, I go for them first. Then 378 00:23:48.169 --> 00:23:51.769 kind of everyone settles down a little bit then. But the mandatory one makes me 379 00:23:51.769 --> 00:23:55.049 laugh so much because, actually, you can tell that they just don't wanna be there. 380 00:23:55.049 --> 00:23:59.044 They all be swerving at the fact that you're talking about such a personal experience 381 00:23:59.105 --> 00:24:02.945 because it's been an experience of them. Even a fan is certainly I was 382 00:24:02.945 --> 00:24:06.885 working with, American Express with their, diversity team 383 00:24:07.424 --> 00:24:11.184 a few years ago now. We were talking about this very thing that actually very 384 00:24:11.184 --> 00:24:14.810 often why people come into these roles of representing a 385 00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:18.550 section of society or section of humanity is because they have 386 00:24:18.550 --> 00:24:22.410 either experienced that directly or indirectly themselves. 387 00:24:23.110 --> 00:24:26.950 But by nature, you then become more sensitive to 388 00:24:26.950 --> 00:24:30.875 take on the burdens and the challenges of everybody else. So, 389 00:24:30.875 --> 00:24:34.795 actually, what it does, it increases the pressure on your own emotional well-being because 390 00:24:34.795 --> 00:24:38.555 you are flying the flag. So, actually, if you look at mental health 391 00:24:38.555 --> 00:24:42.470 champions, for example, that by the time they get home, they 392 00:24:42.470 --> 00:24:46.390 have not only supported themselves, but 20 other people, and that's before they even get 393 00:24:46.390 --> 00:24:49.130 home. Home is not always a good place. 394 00:24:50.630 --> 00:24:53.529 So I think that people like ourselves that are actually out there 395 00:24:54.304 --> 00:24:57.924 championing things, trying to create thought leadership and 396 00:24:58.304 --> 00:25:01.905 stuff, there's an element of we do need to be more selfish as well. We 397 00:25:01.905 --> 00:25:05.745 need to make sure that we protect our own energy before we put 398 00:25:05.745 --> 00:25:09.445 ourselves into those situations. And I think for me, that's why 399 00:25:10.090 --> 00:25:14.009 I know my kind of resilience threshold when it comes to pushback. I 400 00:25:14.009 --> 00:25:18.009 don't get that much, to be honest, but, I'm in true admiration of you, Joe, 401 00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:21.929