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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 161 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, beyond the DEI backlash. And
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Wema Hoover.
Joanne Lockwood: Wema is a global diversity, equity, and inclusion expert
Joanne Lockwood: and former chief diversity officer for Fortune 500
Joanne Lockwood: companies, including, no less, Google and Sanofi,
Joanne Lockwood: dedicated to driving systemic change and cultural transformation. When I
Joanne Lockwood: asked Weymah to describe her superpower, she said that it is championing
Joanne Lockwood: sustainable DEI strategies in a shifting corporate landscape.
Joanne Lockwood: And don't we need that right now? Hello, Wema. Welcome to the show.
Wema Hoover: Hello, Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And you're based in the New Jersey,
Joanne Lockwood: did I hear you say? I am. I'm based based in Princeton, New Jersey,
Wema Hoover: which is right outside New York City and situated between
Wema Hoover: Philadelphia and New York. It's a bit nippy, bit cold over there at the moment.
Wema Hoover: Yes. We've got a cold front. This is our typical Northeast
Wema Hoover: weather that we have forgotten for many years, but came back blistering
Wema Hoover: over this. Yeah. But it's quite nostalgic. I don't I don't mind so
Wema Hoover: much. No. It's it's nice sometimes. It it changes it up a bit
Joanne Lockwood: as you I think you're saying in the agreement, get chance to wear some different
Joanne Lockwood: shoes, different coats, and, different outfits. Exactly. I'm pulling out
Wema Hoover: all of my heavy coat and my various different, shoes that
Wema Hoover: has Gore Tex and the different materials for cold weather to keep your feet
Wema Hoover: warm. So it's been a lot. It's been a long you know, we would definitely
Wema Hoover: will welcome the spring, but right now, the fireplace, the
Wema Hoover: heated blankets, all of that, I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying for the
Wema Hoover: moment. I'm shivering just thinking about it. Yeah. In The UK, it's we get
Joanne Lockwood: frightened if it gets to one degree centigrade. So, yeah, we have, we're struggling here
Joanne Lockwood: at the moment. K. Waima, you're telling me about your name. It's a beautiful
Joanne Lockwood: name. What's the what's the history behind it? Thank you.
Wema Hoover: Yes. My name is Wema, which is Swahili, and it's, spelled
Wema Hoover: w e m a, and the e is pronounced like a long a, that language.
Wema Hoover: And it means true goodness. So, that is, you know, the back road of
Wema Hoover: my name and was given to me through my parents. They
Wema Hoover: were, you know, in the early seventies and here in America wanted
Wema Hoover: to embrace our heritage. And so I've embraced it and I've hopefully
Wema Hoover: lived up to the name through the work that I've done and
Wema Hoover: how I show up in the world. That's a truly beautiful day, Amanda, and even
Joanne Lockwood: more peaceful meaning. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Lovely to meet you.
Joanne Lockwood: We talked about your superpower. You know, championing sustainable DEI strategies as shifting
Joanne Lockwood: corporate landscape. And we first started talking about this
Joanne Lockwood: podcast back in October, November last year, and
Joanne Lockwood: the landscape has shifted. It's not aggressively slow anymore. It's like a it's
Joanne Lockwood: been an avalanche in the last few weeks, hasn't it? What's happened? It
Wema Hoover: has. You know, it's been quite this change under our
Wema Hoover: new political administration, which has, you know, really
Wema Hoover: targeted diversity, equity, inclusion programs as one as as
Wema Hoover: being unfair and discriminated against,
Wema Hoover: you know, those that are not in the minority and marginalized
Wema Hoover: community. And which I think is unfortunate about it is that
Wema Hoover: it is really not understanding and taking, in
Wema Hoover: consideration the intent of diversity, equity, inclusion program, which
Wema Hoover: is not to provide advantage or preference, but it's
Wema Hoover: to provide access and level opportunities so the best
Wema Hoover: and brightest can shine. But unfortunately, that is not the narrative that is
Wema Hoover: being purported, and it is actually being hijacked.
Wema Hoover: And really, you know, a lot of misinformation around it is
Wema Hoover: prevailing. And, what I am doing, through my work and my consultancy
Wema Hoover: is helping organizations continue to leverage inclusion,
Wema Hoover: equity, tapping into the diverse experiences,
Wema Hoover: perspectives, backgrounds, sexual orientation of the workforce
Wema Hoover: so that it can truly, truly maximize, the talent and
Wema Hoover: potential that'll drive their organizations forward. So I'm working with, you
Wema Hoover: know, my clients and I'm working also with organizations to
Wema Hoover: ensure that the, you know, that the true meaning, and, and,
Wema Hoover: and, and essence and purpose of inclusion, equity, and
Wema Hoover: really the value of diversity is not lost and that it can
Wema Hoover: still be leveraged, not only for the employee engagement to make
Wema Hoover: sure that everyone feels like they are working in a
Wema Hoover: safe, welcoming environment that they feel like we belong,
Wema Hoover: but also for connecting with the customers, the clients, and
Wema Hoover: having impact. Right? And serving, you know, your constituency in the
Wema Hoover: most, culturally relevant and respectful and dignified way. Do you think
Joanne Lockwood: some of this backlash is because
Joanne Lockwood: many people trying to implement the equity agenda, for want of a better way of
Joanne Lockwood: describing it? I don't I don't like that phrase myself, felt that they were being
Joanne Lockwood: marginalized themselves. So the the white man has found
Joanne Lockwood: themselves being pushed out of opportunity, and that's where the backlash
Joanne Lockwood: has come from. Yes, Joanne. I think it's a bit of that.
Wema Hoover: And, also, I think there is a mindset of zero sum
Wema Hoover: gain so that if you gain and have
Wema Hoover: access and I see more of people who are not like me,
Wema Hoover: then I am automatically assuming that I'm at a loss. When in
Wema Hoover: actuality, it is not, you know, a zero sum
Wema Hoover: game. It is opening the aperture so that the true
Wema Hoover: fabric of what United States and America was made on
Wema Hoover: actually flourishes. Right? It actually flourishes and thrive
Wema Hoover: because if you look at any point in history and especially in The United States
Wema Hoover: history, the time that United States have grown from
Wema Hoover: an industrial standpoint, from a technical standpoint, from a manufacturing
Wema Hoover: standpoint is also correlates to the highest times of
Wema Hoover: immigration. So that diversity was at the center
Wema Hoover: of every growth, every expansion,
Wema Hoover: every innovative, in in in innovative change and shift
Wema Hoover: in the country, it was correlated with immigration and really being able to
Wema Hoover: leverage all of the different talent experiences and skill
Wema Hoover: skills of the people coming into our country. So the sad thing about it is,
Wema Hoover: is that we know this, this is evident. This is in our history, in
Wema Hoover: our research, but yet in yet instilled this like, you know,
Wema Hoover: misinformed and, you know, completely false narrative is
Wema Hoover: raining because there is an assumption that, you know,
Wema Hoover: because we're giving the opportunities that there is a loss for a
Wema Hoover: particular community or a group of people. And my fear is that that
Wema Hoover: loss is gonna translate into a loss of our ability
Wema Hoover: to become and maintain our competitive nature to harness
Wema Hoover: the, the true talent and potential and that, you know, we live in a global
Wema Hoover: world right now. These are individual, you know, people are able to, you
Wema Hoover: know, be employed to get opportunities outside of The US or in
Wema Hoover: other forms. So I say that it's even more imperative now for
Wema Hoover: our society, for organizations, to really
Wema Hoover: anchor themselves and connect their, you
Wema Hoover: know, DEI efforts, inclusion efforts, whether it's just
Wema Hoover: be shifting the names, making sure that it is really centering all
Wema Hoover: people so that they can truly tap into and and and leverage and
Wema Hoover: maximize the the best skills, innovation, ideas, and perspectives
Wema Hoover: of the people in society. What's surprising me is the number
Joanne Lockwood: of household names, big brands that are
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly purging their own DEI
Joanne Lockwood: initiatives, on their Facebook pages, pages on their
Joanne Lockwood: website, not part of the federal government. They'd be waiting
Joanne Lockwood: for an excuse to drop this, or do you think it's they're being leveraged by
Joanne Lockwood: by the administration to make these changes? Yeah. That's an interesting,
Wema Hoover: question, Joanna. And I, you know, and I I wanna, you know, actually
Wema Hoover: address that. And although we have been seeing,
Wema Hoover: you know, a ramped amount and and been publicized,
Wema Hoover: the companies that are kind of deinvesting or minimizing their
Wema Hoover: DEI, which is a propaganda strategy as
Wema Hoover: well, because it's not, it's not, it's not all of them. I mean, if you,
Wema Hoover: you look at it, I think, you know, they did, a, an
Wema Hoover: estimate and I think it was between seven to 8% of the Fortune
Wema Hoover: 500 companies. However, if you also extract that and
Wema Hoover: dig a little deeper, those are the companies that have only been invested
Wema Hoover: in DEI probably for the last four to five years. So
Wema Hoover: they're the ones who literally, when we had the
Wema Hoover: horrible murder of George Floyd in 2020, that was a pivotal
Wema Hoover: point, not only in The United States, but across every market and every
Wema Hoover: country where you really looked at, you know, what is
Wema Hoover: happening between the markets, not only the opportunities,
Wema Hoover: but the impact that they're having in society with access to,
Wema Hoover: you know, grow to have opportunities that everyone was reevaluating.
Wema Hoover: Those are the companies who really touted and stood
Wema Hoover: up their programs. And now, you know, we can truly say that
Wema Hoover: perhaps that was just window dressing. Right. It was a moment in time that
Wema Hoover: it was socially acceptable to do something, do those. But if you really kind
Wema Hoover: of dig into those that have de invested are the ones that have not
Wema Hoover: been, has not had it a part of their strategic imperatives that has
Wema Hoover: only been, you know, really focused on it through
Wema Hoover: that time, right, as a response, but not as a
Wema Hoover: practical approach to their workforce development, to
Wema Hoover: their talent strategy, and to their
Wema Hoover: market segmentation and ability to drive their business.
Joanne Lockwood: I remember probably six or seven years ago, if not maybe more, when it was
Joanne Lockwood: either North Carolina or South North Carolina had the bathroom bill, wasn't it? They signed
Joanne Lockwood: the bathroom bill in North Carolina, the first state to do so. There was a
Joanne Lockwood: real solidarity between behind a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: serious brands and corporate companies posing it,
Joanne Lockwood: pulling their confidence out of it, basically saying, we're not gonna support North Carolina anymore.
Joanne Lockwood: That is that solidarity still there? Is that is there other people gonna push back,
Joanne Lockwood: or is the the administration too powerful at the federal level
Joanne Lockwood: now? You know, that is a broad question, and I I
Wema Hoover: can't give a definitive answer. What I can say is that I think
Wema Hoover: right now, we are still within the first one hundred days of our new administration.
Wema Hoover: And I think everyone is really paralyzed because no one
Wema Hoover: knows what's coming next. These changes have come so fast and
Wema Hoover: furious. I think everyone is really trying to kind of make
Wema Hoover: meaning of what to do, how to maintain,
Wema Hoover: you know, the efforts and their intention, the ones who, you know, the
Wema Hoover: companies, organizations, and the states that are truly trying to make a difference and
Wema Hoover: ensuring that everyone feels safe, feels included, feels like
Wema Hoover: they belong, have this environment that they can truly be their authentic self. So
Wema Hoover: I do believe that right now we are in a place of
Wema Hoover: just being stale and waiting to see what is happening
Wema Hoover: because literally these things, you know, Joanna's happening daily. I, I, I
Wema Hoover: cannot tell you. It's almost like our head is spinning every
Wema Hoover: single day with something new. And so I
Wema Hoover: have been counseled and I, you know, I know a lot of,
Wema Hoover: the focus had been on how do we retain instead of being
Wema Hoover: reactive and having an emotional and a
Wema Hoover: direct response to these, all of the executive orders, the
Wema Hoover: changes coming out, how do we retain what is good and what we know what
Wema Hoover: works for us? How do we connect it to our value systems,
Wema Hoover: connect it to how we share our shareholders? I gave you the examples. Costco. Costco's
Wema Hoover: shareholder put a, vote to rid of its
Wema Hoover: DEI programs and not have any of them. And
Wema Hoover: Costco, you know, pushed back and said, no, we are not doing that
Wema Hoover: because that is the nature and the essence of how we engage our
Wema Hoover: customer and clients. And we want them to come into the Costco and feel
Wema Hoover: that it is actually connected to them. It understands them. It's actually giving them, you
Wema Hoover: know, products and services. You know,
Wema Hoover: products and services and access to things that are and so they rejected them.
Wema Hoover: And I think that that's what the position that, you know,
Wema Hoover: kind of most organizations are. And I think that that's a position that most states
Wema Hoover: are are doing, kind of how do we protect, right, protect right now in this
Wema Hoover: series. See, you know, we're in still in that first hundred
Wema Hoover: days, what it is coming that obviously can can legally,
Wema Hoover: be, defended in this time and error. So
Wema Hoover: we are still in the thick of of things, you know, but I think I
Wema Hoover: shared with you earlier what is keeping me encouraged.
Wema Hoover: Even though every day, it has been an effort to get up and stay encouraged,
Wema Hoover: around, you know, the small you know, the acts of kindness that has been
Wema Hoover: so increased tremendously. Like I've experienced it and I had done
Wema Hoover: that. I think there is a spirit and energy. It's like, you know, whatever's happening
Wema Hoover: at the macro level, what kindness, what extension of humanity
Wema Hoover: can I drive myself that really impacts the community I am?
Wema Hoover: I've felt that and seen that in tremendous ways. And that is giving
Wema Hoover: me the energy and the courage to know that, you know, there is still that
Wema Hoover: passive resistance through create you know, like Maha Gandhi said, you know, be
Wema Hoover: the change you wanna create. And and I've experienced As an observer from the other
Joanne Lockwood: side of the pond, the, it seems like a
Joanne Lockwood: a dystopian reality that Margaret Atwood put,
Joanne Lockwood: created in Handmaid's Tale. Some of these things are just with the last administration
Joanne Lockwood: four or five years ago, I believe that things like that could happen. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I'm believing it even more now that one day, women's rights are gonna be
Joanne Lockwood: peeled back so far, and nobody's gonna be standing up and saying, no. We're dismantling
Joanne Lockwood: too much of the protection mechanisms, Roe versus Wade
Joanne Lockwood: to push back anti abortion everywhere, women being
Joanne Lockwood: pulled out of influential positions in power, demonized for was it
Joanne Lockwood: the the coast guard? Head of the coast guard was a woman being blamed for
Joanne Lockwood: disasters, almost like a resetting. Rhetoric such as if you want a
Joanne Lockwood: job done properly, it has to be a man, has to be a white man,
Joanne Lockwood: and and women aren't able to deliver. We want more masculine energy according
Joanne Lockwood: to Zuckerberg in organizations. So how far fetches Margaret
Joanne Lockwood: Atwood's vision? Is something closer and closer now? You
Wema Hoover: know, honestly, you know, I don't know how it is far
Wema Hoover: fetched, but you know what they say, you know, reality is always
Wema Hoover: stranger than fiction. Right? And so you have these things, but but again, you
Wema Hoover: know, I wanna say that in any society, United States, you know, in The
Wema Hoover: US and even abroad where we actually had other pundits that did not
Wema Hoover: get, you know, I when I was living in France, I mean, you know, Marie
Wema Hoover: Le Pen was was, you know, I was there during the election with Emmanuel Macron
Wema Hoover: and she's not as dissimilar to to, our current president.
Wema Hoover: But I do think that you have factions of opposing
Wema Hoover: ideologies and political stances that are always at the fringes.
Wema Hoover: Right? Because again, I go back to what I said earlier, there is a thought
Wema Hoover: that difference equals loss. Difference equals, you
Wema Hoover: know, there is, you know, a sense of change or
Wema Hoover: hijacking what an entitlement that I believe that I have.
Wema Hoover: You know, but I also do believe that, you know, this is a moment
Wema Hoover: in time. And I think what is happening here, especially in United States, there
Wema Hoover: is a reckoning, right? Because those who may have voted for the current
Wema Hoover: administration did not realize just the kind
Wema Hoover: of massive, not only changes, but dismantling that would
Wema Hoover: happen that would affect their own backyard, you know, from an education
Wema Hoover: system, from an immigration system, you know, from an access in social
Wema Hoover: security. So I do think that there is this almost like,
Wema Hoover: still reality that, wow, this is not what I
Wema Hoover: signed up for. And, you know, because of that, you know, my hope, and I
Wema Hoover: am encouraged that there will be more, you know, people that would
Wema Hoover: stand up as we look at the midterms coming up and looking at the
Wema Hoover: expectations that we have for our, you know, political leaders who represent
Wema Hoover: us to actually put them in action. And that's to say, hey, you know what?
Wema Hoover: We need to have people who understand not only my
Wema Hoover: issues, but can actually create, a society of law and order,
Wema Hoover: which feels like we don't have we which we don't have anymore. People have drawn
Joanne Lockwood: parallels with, nineteen thirties Germany, '19 twenties,
Joanne Lockwood: '19 thirties Germany, where the incumbent administration
Joanne Lockwood: dismantled the protection mechanism in such a way that there was no one to
Joanne Lockwood: stop them, and then a a momentum took place. And I think if you're not
Joanne Lockwood: careful that this administration is now controlling the media.
Joanne Lockwood: The, we realize how powerful social media is. Facebook X
Joanne Lockwood: is a powerful outlet that drives opinion, and it would appear that the
Joanne Lockwood: administration has implicit control over those of
Joanne Lockwood: those. Necessarily. I I would absolutely
Wema Hoover: ascertain that the media outlets are giving a fair description of what is
Wema Hoover: happening, and they are objectively challenging. I mean,
Wema Hoover: even in the press rooms and even in the White House briefings, even in the
Wema Hoover: news and the, as they have, if they could not, if they did not, I
Wema Hoover: mean, they, they have to, because these are things that are accessible to the public,
Wema Hoover: you know, the executive orders, gross negligence in some, in some instances,
Wema Hoover: gross negligence, any confidence that is happening, they have, and it has
Wema Hoover: been recorded really accurately and, and on those
Wema Hoover: platforms. So I can't say that there is not like this shield
Wema Hoover: that we are all putting at, you know, kind of putting up on us that
Wema Hoover: we're not able to understand and know what's really going on. Oh, no. It's
Wema Hoover: quite the opposite. It's almost like it's too much. We get all of the
Wema Hoover: reality, but it is happening so fast and so daily that you
Wema Hoover: almost get overwhelmed and it makes you have, you know,
Wema Hoover: this feeling of helplessness, which, you know, may be
Wema Hoover: a tactic that you're like, it's happening so fast. What can I do? And that's
Wema Hoover: where I say, you know, we talked in the green room around, you know, the
Wema Hoover: daily, the need for people daily to really wake up,
Wema Hoover: understand, and be very thoughtful about the information they're taking
Wema Hoover: in, how they're kind of making meaning of it. And then how are they kind
Wema Hoover: of orienting themselves through meditation, through prayer, through whatever, through
Wema Hoover: yoga, wherever, you know, kind of vehicle you use to ground yourself to do that.
Wema Hoover: That is so important. And more important to where you have
Wema Hoover: the opportunity to make those changes, have those micro behaviors, like
Wema Hoover: in the area and the communities and environments that you are immediately
Wema Hoover: in. Because although that's happening at a macro level, I can say the
Wema Hoover: community level, people want to hold those values. People not only
Wema Hoover: hold those, they believe them. We are we are entrenched in them and not gonna
Wema Hoover: let them know. Will we see another George Floyd? Maybe if
Joanne Lockwood: not black American, maybe Hispanic Americans. Will we
Joanne Lockwood: see another uprising due to some significant injustice
Joanne Lockwood: that lights the barricade? Will we see something erupt, do you think? I pray that
Wema Hoover: we don't. And that is my deep and and solemn prayer that we don't because
Wema Hoover: that was horrific. And it was a time that and I wasn't even living in
Wema Hoover: The United States at the time when that happened. I was still living in France.
Wema Hoover: And I can tell you that it reverberated across the ocean, the
Wema Hoover: continents. And in my role, I was leading diversity, equity, inclusion
Wema Hoover: at the time and had all the global markets. Every market felt that. I
Wema Hoover: don't, I would not pray for that, but I what I would would pray is
Wema Hoover: that, you know, there is, an awakening and a
Wema Hoover: veil lifted that, you know, it is not I don't I don't I
Wema Hoover: don't even wanna say it's around diversity, equity, inclusion. I wanna say that
Wema Hoover: it it is, you know, around this,
Wema Hoover: fear of, you know, that different people,
Wema Hoover: gender, sexual orientation, race are, you
Wema Hoover: know, able to have opportunity and able to
Wema Hoover: take positions and make effective change so that that this world and this
Wema Hoover: country can literally be a place where everybody can
Wema Hoover: thrive. And, you know, that is where there's a fear. There's a fear
Wema Hoover: that, you know, when you look at the demographic census, you know,
Wema Hoover: of United States, particularly of, you know, how, you know, people of color,
Wema Hoover: you know, will continue to be the growing majority if you look at the
Wema Hoover: ten, ten to fifteen years out. And that fear is driving that
Wema Hoover: 100%. And so it's masked in diversity equity inclusion,
Wema Hoover: it's masked in, you know, xenophobia, it's, it's masked in, you know,
Wema Hoover: misogyny, all any, you know, all the isms that you can think of, but that
Wema Hoover: is the reality. But again, you know, I, I, I don't, you
Wema Hoover: know, prescribe to the fact that it is dismal and we are not without
Wema Hoover: hope or not without action because action is, is happening. We, we have
Wema Hoover: federal judges and actions being taken to thwart it. But it, but I also
Wema Hoover: think, again, like I said before, it, it has to come for each individual
Wema Hoover: really imparting change within the community and the environment that they're
Wema Hoover: in with organizations really aligning, you know,
Wema Hoover: their efforts to their mission, their purpose, their kind of employee value
Wema Hoover: proposition to their customer and, and, and, and client
Wema Hoover: centricity, how they understand them. That has, it has to get back to the roots
Wema Hoover: of why were you doing this in the first place? And those organizations that did
Wema Hoover: not define that or never had that though, those
Wema Hoover: strong roots to begin with, they're the ones who are backing off because it was
Wema Hoover: not, it was not solid and anchored solidly in any
Wema Hoover: type of fabric of why they were doing it. And so this is where, you
Wema Hoover: know, I'm reporting and really, really, really encouraging others to
Wema Hoover: stand and take action. So what what disenfranchised everybody to the
Joanne Lockwood: point where they need to vote in this way?
Joanne Lockwood: Because my my understanding again from this side of the pond is that,
Joanne Lockwood: women, people of color, Hispanic, Latino,
Joanne Lockwood: black communities, all voted or large enough numbers for
Joanne Lockwood: this administration. What disenfranchised
Joanne Lockwood: them from from the what was there before? There was must must be some reason
Joanne Lockwood: why people were hanging on. I wanna vote for better. What was better they were
Joanne Lockwood: expecting? Yeah. And so I'll preface it by saying I'm not a
Wema Hoover: political strategist, although I I do think I understand,
Wema Hoover: you know, and influence it, but, but, you know, from my perspective and
Wema Hoover: when you look at the poll numbers, it wasn't that people voted for something. I
Wema Hoover: think the problem is we had a lot of people who didn't vote at all.
Wema Hoover: I think that there were a lot of assumptions that I'm not gonna, I'm gonna
Wema Hoover: sit this one out. You know what I, this, this will never take place.
Wema Hoover: You know, this administration will never get voted in and I'm just gonna let
Wema Hoover: the politics go as it were, it was because there has been too many,
Wema Hoover: too many kind of fractions back and forth. And I'm not wholly happy with, you
Wema Hoover: know, the democratic party. I'm not wholly happy with the Republican party, but this will
Wema Hoover: never happen. So it wasn't a vote for. It was, you know,
Wema Hoover: a large, large, which is like, like a third or third of people who just
Wema Hoover: didn't show up at all. Yes. So that that is the reality. And it wasn't
Wema Hoover: a landslide at all. It was probably the least, I think. And again, I'm
Wema Hoover: not a political strategist, but from what I I've read and I've known, you know,
Wema Hoover: from the debriefs of the election was,
Wema Hoover: the election that, you know, this party has won by the least margin in the
Wema Hoover: past, I don't know, 10 to 12 elections. So it wasn't, it wasn't
Wema Hoover: overwhelming. It was that group that just didn't come out because there
Wema Hoover: was assumption that this would never happen. Kind like what we talked about with the
Wema Hoover: handmaid's tale. This would never happen, and, oh, boy, will were we wrong. Well, that's
Joanne Lockwood: what I wanted to say, actually. And the their their hypothesis
Joanne Lockwood: was we were being too complacent for the rights we'd
Joanne Lockwood: had, the life we were having. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: now woken the world up, or certainly the Western world, to the fact that if
Joanne Lockwood: you if you don't make a stand, you don't speak out, then
Joanne Lockwood: you will get you will get change that you don't like. So every vote counts.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yes. Not taking a stand and that complacency
Wema Hoover: was absolutely the nail in the coffin for us. And I do
Wema Hoover: think also there was just a kind of genuine assumption that that can never happen
Wema Hoover: in our country again. We would never regress back to
Wema Hoover: the time where every person is not seen, centered, and
Wema Hoover: and and feels like they can have, a part of the American dream, and we
Wema Hoover: are. And so it was, you know, kind of not on voting for. It's like,
Wema Hoover: you know, I'm gonna let the politicians and the folks do. I'm gonna just sit
Wema Hoover: out. And then it was a shoot. It was the largest amount that we've had
Wema Hoover: in many, many elections of people who just didn't show up. Why won't we
Joanne Lockwood: I I appreciate I'm pushing you out of your lane here a little bit into
Joanne Lockwood: the political commentaries. Let me let me try and swerve you back into the comfort
Joanne Lockwood: zone lane where you can talk about stuff. What I'd what I'd like to do
Joanne Lockwood: is talk to our listener out there who's listening in, who's probably,
Joanne Lockwood: in HR, in DEI, EDI themselves. Maybe they're in large
Joanne Lockwood: company or small company. In in this time where
Joanne Lockwood: not just in The US, it's it's a pushback in the yeah. The anti work
Joanne Lockwood: there's the anti DEI or EDI in The UK is being pushed back as well.
Joanne Lockwood: People do in their in their businesses right now. And if if your list if
Joanne Lockwood: your listeners is your company, what should company be doing at this
Joanne Lockwood: time to either ensure that their their people
Joanne Lockwood: feel level of psychological safety or actually keeping their business
Joanne Lockwood: focused on what's important in the face of all this negativity? Yeah. That's
Wema Hoover: a great question, Joanne. And I and, you know, what I think the most important
Wema Hoover: thing is for organizations, to really go back to
Wema Hoover: their values. Why are they focusing on and why do they value,
Wema Hoover: and it is important to them, diversity, equity, inclusion, and
Wema Hoover: really connected to not only what they do, but how you do it.
Wema Hoover: Right? And the way that you do it, how does it ensure that
Wema Hoover: you are creating a psychologically safe, inclusive
Wema Hoover: environment that people can be their best and bring their best?
Wema Hoover: People cannot bring their best if they're in hostile environments, if they feel that
Wema Hoover: they are not going to be tacked on or being able to contribute because of
Wema Hoover: who they are or what their authentic, their authentic selves. And how does it
Wema Hoover: actually support your strategic imperatives, your business imperatives? How is it
Wema Hoover: actually integrated into your purpose and your values and your mission?
Wema Hoover: And if your mission is really around serving a
Wema Hoover: client, a customer, or really providing a product that serves
Wema Hoover: everyone for you not to have inclusion for you not to
Wema Hoover: have, a value of diversity, for you not to harness
Wema Hoover: those, those insights and the ways of working that allows you
Wema Hoover: to have culturally relevant ability to connect with
Wema Hoover: the people that you serve is going to not allow
Wema Hoover: you to be successful. Right? And that is what I'm encouraging
Wema Hoover: organizations to get back to. In addition, I think in this environment, it is
Wema Hoover: also important to have a very pragmatic and practical approach, which is
Wema Hoover: really looking at, you know, your talent and your systems, right? Because what you don't
Wema Hoover: want to do is actually expose yourself to kind of any
Wema Hoover: retaliation or area for the, for the government, the federal government,
Wema Hoover: particularly if you have a federal contract, you won't be expected to adhere to
Wema Hoover: that standards is by looking at your, your systems and making sure
Wema Hoover: that in this environment, you don't really drive
Wema Hoover: with quotas. Right? You don't have a number, but you still
Wema Hoover: have the processes and, and the, the,
Wema Hoover: systems in place to, to address bias, to address
Wema Hoover: inequities. Because at the end of the day, what you're trying to do is really
Wema Hoover: make sure that you create an environment where it is meritocracy, where it is
Wema Hoover: the best and the bright brightest, but you're not leading with a number,
Wema Hoover: a quota, or, you know, any type of incentive with
Wema Hoover: putting people in. And, you know, the, the interesting thing and the irony of
Wema Hoover: it is that that is the whole intent of DEI. It's just to de
Wema Hoover: bias and open up access so that you can get the, the
Wema Hoover: best and the brightest because it was not allowed before because people really
Wema Hoover: just hired, tapped into, promoted people based on
Wema Hoover: likeness and familiarity. And so that is what I, you know,
Wema Hoover: encouraging HR professionals, DEI professionals, and most, you know, to be
Wema Hoover: honest with you, CEOs and executives in these organizations to
Wema Hoover: really buckle down down on and focus in this time. Yeah. Because I think
Joanne Lockwood: people misunderstood equity in all these these conversations. And and
Joanne Lockwood: there's always also you know, I always get a bit wild when people just shove
Joanne Lockwood: the meritocracy in my face and say, well, the best person should
Joanne Lockwood: get the job. Well, we know that equity is important to ensure the
Joanne Lockwood: best person does get the job given the fact that not everybody has the same
Joanne Lockwood: start line. 100%. And that's what's missing from this
Wema Hoover: comp the the the this narrative that's being reported right now. Right?
Wema Hoover: And that's what the whole system was designed to do is to give
Wema Hoover: everyone the opportunity, not only to start, but
Wema Hoover: have continual access. Because we know that, you know, equity is challenged
Wema Hoover: at every rung from the academic, you know, through the hiring,
Wema Hoover: through the development, through the promotion. So at every rung, there
Wema Hoover: are biases. There are systemic processes and obstacles and
Wema Hoover: barriers in place. And this is what these systems are designed to do. Not to
Wema Hoover: give preferential treatment or choose a particular person or background or
Wema Hoover: gender, but it's to making sure that you have access and those,
Wema Hoover: regardless of the difference, have have access. So the best and the brightest can shine.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I sorry. My brain just froze. I had a question ready to come out,
Joanne Lockwood: and it just put disappeared. And it's you're
Joanne Lockwood: so right. One thing that I've I've found when I'm talking to people is that
Joanne Lockwood: there's this perception. If you hire for diversity,
Joanne Lockwood: you'll hire for second best. So, again, this this anti equity, this
Joanne Lockwood: this pro meritocracy argument is you must be of this demographic
Joanne Lockwood: or your second best. And that's the narrative that seems to be very pervasive
Joanne Lockwood: amongst people with privilege, for whatever better way of describing it. That is
Wema Hoover: so true. I mean, it is essentially today that that is
Wema Hoover: the narrative that they are purporting, that it is second best, and then that
Wema Hoover: you are not getting, the quality of hire or the talent.
Wema Hoover: When, if you really dig into it, I mean, honestly, if you look at the
Wema Hoover: research, you will see that those that have the
Wema Hoover: diverse background are usually overeducated, overqualified,
Wema Hoover: and probably have, you know, more than whatever
Wema Hoover: the experience is having. But again, because they don't have the affinity,
Wema Hoover: they don't have the likeness, they don't have the, the commonality from a pedigree
Wema Hoover: or, you know, like a social economic status or, you know,
Wema Hoover: an educational, they don't have access. And, and this is what it, what
Wema Hoover: is really, you know, kind of interesting is
Wema Hoover: because it is propaganda. Right? Propaganda is like where you just kind
Wema Hoover: of put a marketing and you don't have any evidence to prove it. But in
Wema Hoover: fact, it's evidence against this, you know, which is the reality,
Wema Hoover: which is, you know, why I think it's so important for
Wema Hoover: organizations to not only, tap into a leverage it,
Wema Hoover: but also now create their own, you know, kind of truth
Wema Hoover: telling, create their own success stories and start
Wema Hoover: communicating it. Like how, when they have done it, they've been able
Wema Hoover: to kind of tap into, to new markets. They've been able to
Wema Hoover: leverage talents that, you know, were maybe not the
Wema Hoover: prototype or the archetype of what they have been used to. And really
Wema Hoover: talk about the benefits and a value that organizations
Wema Hoover: have, have been able to achieve because of that. This is where you gotta gotta
Wema Hoover: establish your own value proposition and do some historical digging and
Wema Hoover: really putting that forward and amplifying that. Because that
Wema Hoover: is the only way that you will challenge something that, you know,
Wema Hoover: a lot of people wanna believe because to your point earlier,
Wema Hoover: it will justify them rising so hard against it to
Wema Hoover: protect their own privilege. So we've seen big companies. I mean, McKinsey
Joanne Lockwood: is a great example of one of the perpetrators, if
Joanne Lockwood: you want, or proponent of DEI as a
Joanne Lockwood: business imperative. You know, they they make a lot of money as selling their
Joanne Lockwood: statistics and their consulting around, you'll be x percent more this and y percent
Joanne Lockwood: better this and z percent better this if you do this, this and this. It's
Joanne Lockwood: that easy. Every company would be x percent better
Joanne Lockwood: this and y percent better that and z percent better this, But that's not happening.
Joanne Lockwood: Are are people missing the point of these initiatives, or they're not
Joanne Lockwood: implementing the well, or they they go into them with the wrong objectives? Goes
Joanne Lockwood: on because they spent billions on DEI initiatives,
Joanne Lockwood: And we're not we're not more successful as a result. Where's where's
Joanne Lockwood: the disconnect? Well, first, I wanna challenge that a
Wema Hoover: bit. I don't think that there is no evidence, around
Wema Hoover: that. And I also wanna challenge the, you know, the thought that
Wema Hoover: there's billions being spent on DEI. These are not
Wema Hoover: DEI. DEI is, is a business strategy. It is a
Wema Hoover: talent program. It is accessing. And so what is
Wema Hoover: being labeled and what and how you put it, it's not a DEI
Wema Hoover: program with with that, that has it on. No. These are, good talent strategies,
Wema Hoover: effective employee engagement efforts. These are customer
Wema Hoover: segmentation, which is a, you know, a really tried and true
Wema Hoover: marketing strategy and customer centricity. These are
Wema Hoover: not DEI strategy. And this is a part of the false
Wema Hoover: narrative that has actually being actually purported. That these are just, no,
Wema Hoover: these are good business practices. That's it.
Wema Hoover: And like every other business practice, you have a strategy,
Wema Hoover: you have imperatives and you have actions to drive
Wema Hoover: them. And like every other strategic imperative, you have people who do them well
Wema Hoover: and actually are maximize and get the benefit of it and the value of
Wema Hoover: it. And you have folks that don't, that don't do it well because they don't
Wema Hoover: believe in it or they want to keep, you know, the status
Wema Hoover: quo. And, I would actually go soft prior to say if they do that,
Wema Hoover: perhaps their growth and their ability to achieve is thwarted and is not
Wema Hoover: as grown as much. So I, I wanna make sure that when we talk about
Wema Hoover: it, we don't put a label on something that is good
Wema Hoover: business practices and that, you know, those that are kind of sharing
Wema Hoover: and, and promoting this misinformation, are saying is D I.
Wema Hoover: No, these are good business practices before there was a
Wema Hoover: title or there was a label of DEI. These were still
Wema Hoover: in existence because it is known from
Wema Hoover: organizational psychology and assistance approach that when people are in
Wema Hoover: an environment where they feel safe, they feel included, they have the
Wema Hoover: ability to be themselves. They perform the best. When you understand,
Wema Hoover: you know, and have an ability to connect with your customer or client,
Wema Hoover: in a culturally relevant, socioeconomic
Wema Hoover: relevant and a racial or gender that you're trying to serve
Wema Hoover: them. If you do that well, you're able to understand them,
Wema Hoover: connect to them and maximize that customer experience. These are not
Wema Hoover: DEI pro. These are good business strategies that now have been
Wema Hoover: hijacked and have been mislabeled to purport
Wema Hoover: this divisive and racist, I will go say, agenda
Wema Hoover: that it is us against them. It's not. These are just good
Wema Hoover: business strategies. So if those are good business strategies,
Joanne Lockwood: what are the toxic DEI labels that we need to, shed then?
Joanne Lockwood: What's what's this clear? What what are we getting confused with? What do you
Joanne Lockwood: mean toxic DEI? Well, the d I d I d I is
Joanne Lockwood: being labeled as as toxic. It's been labeled as
Joanne Lockwood: wasteful. What you're just saying, I think, I completely agree with, is that all these
Joanne Lockwood: initiatives are sound business strategies. So what you're
Joanne Lockwood: saying is DEI is a sound business strategy. It just happens to have got a
Joanne Lockwood: three letter acronym, which what we should be doing is focusing on what you're talking
Joanne Lockwood: about here is better hiring, a better well-being programs, better opportunities, better
Joanne Lockwood: alignment with your customers, which is what we're saying. The it's being
Joanne Lockwood: mis misinterpreted as something else. And this is
Joanne Lockwood: we're talking about this this against the meritocracy is or the the
Joanne Lockwood: equity. These are these are the kind of words that have been branded as, as
Joanne Lockwood: as toxic, if you like. Whereas, really, they're
Joanne Lockwood: they're they're they're they're actually part of sound business practice. Yeah. I I wouldn't
Wema Hoover: say they've been branded. I think they've been hijacked. And what I'll do is
Wema Hoover: give those labels to those that are, again, misinforming,
Wema Hoover: mislabeling, and are purporting just falsehoods.
Wema Hoover: And so, I'm not going to even acknowledge them as they're
Wema Hoover: not. Because at the end of the day, like I just, you said, these are
Wema Hoover: good business strategies. And when we talk about DEI, what we
Wema Hoover: are actually informing is that, hey, these business strategies
Wema Hoover: do allow you to have diversity, equity, inclusion. That's the outcomes.
Wema Hoover: But the practices, the strategies, the efforts,
Wema Hoover: the, to be honest, all of that is business strategy is the same. You would
Wema Hoover: happen to get it when you do that well, diversity, equity, and
Wema Hoover: inclusion. Now there are, you know, those that we had, I mean, with
Wema Hoover: admissions, college admissions that you are looking intently at, you know,
Wema Hoover: righting wrongs and which we have seen through all modern
Wema Hoover: societies and common societies in terms of, looking at past
Wema Hoover: transgressions against, communities of people. We have been a native Americans here in The
Wema Hoover: United States that have, you know, received, you know, protected lands and they
Wema Hoover: have, you know, special tax practice because they were the, you know,
Wema Hoover: original inhabitants of The United States. And so we have those practices, but what
Wema Hoover: we're talking about, I will not,
Wema Hoover: acknowledge or agree that those are, you
Wema Hoover: know, toxic labels. They're not, those are peep, those are
Wema Hoover: labels that have been hijacked and are being misinformed.
Wema Hoover: It's not. These strategies are business strategy, effective
Wema Hoover: strategy, business strategy that have been in place by the way, for decades and decades
Wema Hoover: and decades, that happened to have also
Wema Hoover: a great outcome of diversity, equity, inclusion, which happens
Wema Hoover: to be very sound strategies and tactics
Wema Hoover: to have strong workforce, you know, of, of, of, of inclusion, of,
Wema Hoover: of, perspective ideas and a wonderful
Wema Hoover: opportunity to understand segment and meet the needs of your
Wema Hoover: market just happens to be, which is also inclusion. So I, you know,
Wema Hoover: reject them and, and, and don't believe and will not say that those are toxic.
Wema Hoover: It's not, it's the people that are using and hijacking them,
Wema Hoover: to create and push this false, narrative that are are using
Wema Hoover: that. Everyone else, I I would say, most of the people
Wema Hoover: understand and and and know that, that that is not the, that, that is not
Wema Hoover: the case. I think, people put too much emphasis on hiring
Joanne Lockwood: and not enough emphasis on creating strategies for retention.
Wema Hoover: Creating strategies for retention. You know what? And that is, to be honest with you,
Wema Hoover: that has, that has always been, you know, quite the challenge,
Wema Hoover: right. Is that, you wanna show the impact of your efforts
Wema Hoover: by being able to bring, you know,
Wema Hoover: folks of all backgrounds in so that you can truly tap
Wema Hoover: into like, you know, whole innovation idea creation. But
Wema Hoover: the, the reality is, and, and I'll say that we are feeling it here in
Wema Hoover: society as well. Right. It's an organization society. If you don't create
Wema Hoover: the conditions for these individuals to feel
Wema Hoover: like they can contribute, to get their ideas
Wema Hoover: leveraged, to know that there's expectations for them to
Wema Hoover: succeed, they won't. What will they do? They will
Wema Hoover: shut down. They'll become paralyzed, and they will work in an environment that
Wema Hoover: is hostile and that you're not able to tap into their best
Wema Hoover: or their brightest. Right? And we, you know, we've seen this evident and
Wema Hoover: particularly in The United States and been many times during the trend big
Wema Hoover: transition. For example, after the pandemic, you know, you had a
Wema Hoover: lot of women that were, you know, doing, working
Wema Hoover: internally, you know, at organizations and kind of even though they were working remotely,
Wema Hoover: but they still had this, you know, huge responsibility of being caretakers
Wema Hoover: for the home. And they, you know, they, experienced
Wema Hoover: extreme burnout, extreme burnout. And so what happened? We saw the largest
Wema Hoover: increase of female entrepreneurs after that period. Like they just
Wema Hoover: opted out of the corporate spare. And so I'm gonna go on my own because
Wema Hoover: I wanna be, you know, the architect of my life and really have this
Wema Hoover: work life integration as a center. You know, most of this thing is balanced, but
Wema Hoover: integration of the center. And I think, you know, this is what is
Wema Hoover: where kind of we're seeing evidence now is that if you're not
Wema Hoover: working, working and focus just as much on retention and the
Wema Hoover: conditions that all employees can be able to contribute,
Wema Hoover: then that will that may be the result that not only don't tap into
Wema Hoover: talent, but they may just kind of exit, choose not to, you
Wema Hoover: know, be a part of the corporate environment, and are going to another opportunity
Wema Hoover: in another organization or go on their own. So let's let's talk to some
Joanne Lockwood: of our listeners who are working maybe for smaller companies. I mean, you
Joanne Lockwood: you got a lot of experience in the the larger multinational
Joanne Lockwood: four did you say four two five hundred? And I'd like to say the maturity
Joanne Lockwood: level of those organizations is likely to be better than the midsize and the
Joanne Lockwood: small medium companies. What should
Joanne Lockwood: CEOs of small and medium companies, CHROs, c suite people be
Joanne Lockwood: thinking about as their top priority?
Joanne Lockwood: Taking the DEI label apart, going back to the sound business strategy, is it
Joanne Lockwood: if you've got a kind of starting point, where where should they start? Yeah. I
Wema Hoover: I absolutely would recommend they start with, you know, what are
Wema Hoover: the cultural conditions? You know, the organizational culture.
Wema Hoover: You know, what are those, behaviors that are being
Wema Hoover: endorsed and communicated and upheld? And what are
Wema Hoover: those behaviors that are toxic, are divisive,
Wema Hoover: and that may, you know, impact you being able to really
Wema Hoover: have your workforce and your talent be in a
Wema Hoover: safe, welcoming psychologically, a safe
Wema Hoover: environment to thrive. So looking at and focusing on the culture. And then again,
Wema Hoover: really standing on how do you reinforce that and create your own
Wema Hoover: narrative and your own value proposition of why you're
Wema Hoover: focusing on it and what the impact it has had. What is the impact on,
Wema Hoover: you know, the employee engagement being made with the workforce talent? What is the impact
Wema Hoover: on your, your business? And I think by doing that, you really
Wema Hoover: quell the noise outside And it's easier to have
Wema Hoover: alignment, you know, from your leaders, your managers,
Wema Hoover: your HR, and for the employees to understand that I'm in working
Wema Hoover: in service of something greater than myself, that this organization is focusing on
Wema Hoover: this. And this is the reasons why I am expected
Wema Hoover: to behave, to work, to interact, to have those
Wema Hoover: connections with my colleagues and also to our customer and clients. But in fact,
Wema Hoover: doing that, it really allows the outside to be silent
Wema Hoover: and that everyone knows when they walk through those doors, regardless of what's what's
Wema Hoover: happening in society, that this is the expectation set for them. I I hear a
Joanne Lockwood: lot a lot of people I see a lot of people on LinkedIn. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: it's quite a common topic of, of
Joanne Lockwood: DEI stroke HR burnout where people are getting
Joanne Lockwood: really frustrated. I mean, talk about the current world climate
Joanne Lockwood: or the current US centric climate at the moment being very,
Joanne Lockwood: very anti DEI, whatever it may be. How can
Joanne Lockwood: people in those positions keep on keeping on, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, in the face of negativity, rejection.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're a person of color, you're black, you know, a black woman trying to
Joanne Lockwood: advocate for these roles, and there's this pervasiveness in society
Joanne Lockwood: saying, this is all wrong. It must be quite quite tough psychologically at the moment
Joanne Lockwood: to to keep going, wasn't it? Yeah. And I don't think that there's a there
Wema Hoover: I think that there are there's a lot of people from the mountains joining anti
Wema Hoover: DI, but I I've seen so many that have stood up and really champion and
Wema Hoover: say that we're not here, not today. And you did and you're on on the
Wema Hoover: across the pond in Germany. I was really happy to hear, you know, when JD
Wema Hoover: Vance went to space, speak and, and, and really tried to purport, you know,
Wema Hoover: the, and I forgot, forgot the name of the, at the political party, but
Wema Hoover: the chancellor of Germany said, we're not going backwards. That made me feel pride.
Wema Hoover: And that's what we need to be talking about when we talk about the entity
Wema Hoover: and I, and then also those that are expressly and deliberately
Wema Hoover: not embracing that. And there we are seeing that quite
Wema Hoover: significantly. I mean, we see Emmanuel Macron as well, kind of stand up and, and
Wema Hoover: say, you know, this is really interesting, crazy things happening over
Wema Hoover: there, but we're gonna kinda double down here. But the burnout is real.
Wema Hoover: And the burnout is one that, I would say is coming
Wema Hoover: because you have the HR practitioners, you have those
Wema Hoover: who, you know, still work or continue to work in DEI, as well
Wema Hoover: as, you know, just the everyday managers. I don't wanna take them out because they
Wema Hoover: are the curators of the culture and the work environment for employees
Wema Hoover: to, to work in. There's burnout there. And it's because,
Wema Hoover: you have, like, this multifaceted challenge that you
Wema Hoover: have to kinda manage. You know, how do you keep your employees engaged and you
Wema Hoover: keep them motivated as well as understand that there's different attitudes,
Wema Hoover: beliefs that are pervasive in the workplace because they come from society. Right. And how
Wema Hoover: do you make sure that you're aligning yourself so you can bring the best
Wema Hoover: and actually have the conditions so people can feel like that they can contribute and
Wema Hoover: thrive. And one of the things that, you know, I, I say it is
Wema Hoover: so important is around getting the space to
Wema Hoover: do that coaching, that advisory,
Wema Hoover: advisory, to your leaders right now. You know, really that is so important
Wema Hoover: because the leaders need to make meaning for themselves and
Wema Hoover: be able to sit with whatever their personal opinions,
Wema Hoover: their affiliation is outside, but what is needed inside
Wema Hoover: the organization and why. And I think that executive council
Wema Hoover: and coaching, if you will, is so imperative right now because that
Wema Hoover: connection in terms of what impact it has on the
Wema Hoover: culture, the work, the, the pulse of the organization, the
Wema Hoover: ability for your, organization to continue to be
Wema Hoover: productive, aligned, still have, you know, the spirit and
Wema Hoover: energy to drive performance or to get stuck in this, you
Wema Hoover: know, cycle of reactionary responses that
Wema Hoover: produce, you know, no good or no impact. And so, you know,
Wema Hoover: my recommendation during this time, it's really to kind of work with
Wema Hoover: your leaders, doing the council advisory and
Wema Hoover: also at the same time, creating spaces for your employees to
Wema Hoover: share and to, you know, really acknowledge what they
Wema Hoover: are experiencing, what they're going through and what is really
Wema Hoover: happening, you know, within the walls of their companies so that
Wema Hoover: they can address those things from a micro level and a macro level.
Wema Hoover: And, you know, it is a tough time, so I'm not gonna mask it and
Wema Hoover: say that it's, it's gonna be easy, but I think doing those two things,
Wema Hoover: you could at least understand the pulse and get an understanding of the pulse of
Wema Hoover: what's happening. But then it also, you know, really walk with and sit
Wema Hoover: with your, leaders to help shepherd them because they
Wema Hoover: have just as much challenge and, and, and, and work
Wema Hoover: to do to not only make meaning, but to show up in a way that'll
Wema Hoover: allow their organizations to continue to perform and
Wema Hoover: not be paralyzed or spin during this crazy moment that we're in.
Joanne Lockwood: Moment that we're in. I love that as a as a sound bite. How long's
Joanne Lockwood: the moment? This probably this probably be the longest moment ever. It's, but I
Joanne Lockwood: suppose in in terms of the, the Earth's history, this is just a,
Joanne Lockwood: microsecond in in the billions of years we've been going, and I'm sure it'll just
Joanne Lockwood: be in in the in the billions of years to to come, it will just
Joanne Lockwood: be insignificant. So we'll hope I hope you're right. I hope we look back at
Joanne Lockwood: this and, laugh about do you remember that crazy time in
Joanne Lockwood: 2025? And and, and, yeah, when the world had
Joanne Lockwood: a a bit of a reset. But then I suppose we survived COVID. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: the world, we never predicted that, a global pandemic could,
Joanne Lockwood: could wipe us out in the way it did, and we didn't react in the
Joanne Lockwood: way we did, and things would change so much. This is Maybe this is just
Joanne Lockwood: an another pandemic. It's just man made. It's not the world.
Wema Hoover: I wanna make sure that we're clear. This is not the world. It's not the
Joanne Lockwood: world. These are, you know, I I I I purport them to, you
Wema Hoover: know, people with pan pots and pans that are just, you know, making noise,
Wema Hoover: but they're doing that. It's not the world. I think that, you know, we have
Wema Hoover: just as much or maybe even more, you know, folks, you know, here in the
Wema Hoover: in The United States and across the world that don't want to go back to
Wema Hoover: those times and that are doing amazing work to make sure that they
Wema Hoover: stand on their values. They stand on the opportunities
Wema Hoover: and, you know, the benefits that has gained. So I think
Wema Hoover: we all should embrace that. And, again, start with those micro behaviors that you can
Wema Hoover: do in your own environment, right, in your own community because that that's where change
Wema Hoover: is really made. Yeah. Just doubling down on what you're saying earlier, this this is
Joanne Lockwood: is sound business sense we're talking here. We're talking about sound business sense
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Aligning with customers, showing your your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues, your staff, your people around you feel a
Joanne Lockwood: sense of belonging, sense of inclusion, pressuring effort, all the things we know
Joanne Lockwood: that happen when people are feeling the magic. Tapping into wide talent
Joanne Lockwood: pools through our hiring strategies. We're we're picking from a global
Joanne Lockwood: market now with online resources, everything. We're truly finding the best
Joanne Lockwood: people and making sure we get the tools in order to
Joanne Lockwood: be heard and seen, have that voice. That's that's all we're talking about here, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? That's all. That's all. Let's let's you know what? We can just
Wema Hoover: get rid of the label or, like, have a label because this is just good
Wema Hoover: business business strategies. And those that are working, you know, and I would like to
Wema Hoover: say like the the Jamie Dimons of the world, we have so many CEOs are
Wema Hoover: stepping up and basically saying the same thing are not letting the
Wema Hoover: rhetoric stop them or put fear in
Wema Hoover: them. And and that's what we need to stand behind and and emulate.
Joanne Lockwood: Emma, I've I've loved this conversation. It's been absolutely fascinating. How could people get hold
Joanne Lockwood: of you? Because you you've got so much to say, and it's it's fascinating even
Joanne Lockwood: when I pushed you out of your lane a little bit. So how can people
Joanne Lockwood: get hold of you? Well, thank you, Joanne. This has been a such a an
Wema Hoover: engaging, discussion and and and and and quite thought provoking.
Wema Hoover: So you can get in contact with me. I'm at w w w dot wemahoover
Wema Hoover: dot com. And once you go in there, you could actually just go,
Wema Hoover: bwwbelimitlesscom.com is my business
Wema Hoover: consulting strategy, where you can get to and access through
Wema Hoover: wemahoover.com as well. I'm on LinkedIn. And so
Wema Hoover: I also have a lot of articles that I have written for
Wema Hoover: various publications. You can check out my article and position on many of these
Wema Hoover: topics as well. And on Instagram, I'm Wema Hoover. And, I
Wema Hoover: look forward to not only continuing this dialogue, but Joanna, I look forward to
Wema Hoover: seeing what you do. I think that the work that you're leading is so
Wema Hoover: important and these open, honest dialogue is really what help
Wema Hoover: people learn. I think we gotta get in these days, we have to get away
Wema Hoover: from the corporate speak and get to really the essence of how
Wema Hoover: people are thinking, feeling, and what they can do, like what's in there.
Wema Hoover: So I thank you for all you do. Bye, Emma. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.