WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites 18 00:01:14.510 --> 00:01:18.310 Billard. And Today is episode 19 00:01:18.310 --> 00:01:22.250 163 with the title Unlocking Neurodivergent 20 00:01:22.250 --> 00:01:25.850 Potential. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 21 00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:29.850 Alex Bellitter. Alex is the operations manager and 22 00:01:29.850 --> 00:01:33.850 lead at Shimmer ADHD Coaching, pioneering 23 00:01:33.850 --> 00:01:37.810 neuro inclusive coaching approaches to support the ADHD community in 24 00:01:37.810 --> 00:01:41.410 achieving their goals. And when I asked Alex to describe her 25 00:01:41.410 --> 00:01:44.970 superpower, she said it is a lifelong love of learning 26 00:01:45.130 --> 00:01:49.090 and a commitment to advancing neuro inclusive coaching. Hello, 27 00:01:49.090 --> 00:01:53.010 Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. 28 00:01:53.170 --> 00:01:56.970 Very excited to be here. Yeah, pleasure. We were chatting away just now 29 00:01:56.970 --> 00:02:00.890 and you're joined with you at your end in Texas somewhere by 30 00:02:00.890 --> 00:02:03.850 a couple of dogs. Is that right? You've got your dogs with you? Yes, I 31 00:02:03.850 --> 00:02:07.050 do. I got Freddie and Bella right with me. They're ready to chime in at 32 00:02:07.050 --> 00:02:10.650 any moment. Yeah. So. Well, we're looking forward to. If they want to join in, 33 00:02:10.650 --> 00:02:13.730 if they. If they got something to add on the topic of Neuro inclusive coaching, 34 00:02:13.730 --> 00:02:17.490 we can involve them. So. Yeah, absolutely. So, Texas. Whereabouts in 35 00:02:17.490 --> 00:02:21.330 Texas? I am located in Dallas. It is Dallas. 36 00:02:21.810 --> 00:02:25.490 I always feel bad during the winter, saying I'm complaining about the cold when I'm 37 00:02:25.810 --> 00:02:28.770 very much in warm weather. But it's still pretty chilly here. 38 00:02:29.730 --> 00:02:33.570 So what's chilly for Dallas, is it. Where are we? 39 00:02:34.130 --> 00:02:38.050 32 Fahrenheit, 0 Centigrade, UK. So where are we in 40 00:02:38.530 --> 00:02:41.820 the 60s or 70s? It does get down into the. 41 00:02:42.460 --> 00:02:46.340 Usually there's a week where it does snow, which I think is the. You're 42 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:50.020 allowed to say it's cold at that point. If it's snowing outside, it's usually for 43 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:53.020 only a few days out of the year. So right now it's in the the 44 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:56.860 40s phase, which quite frankly I have a hard time translating into 45 00:02:56.860 --> 00:03:00.652 Celsius. Yeah, that's probably low 10, 46 00:03:00.748 --> 00:03:04.620 10ish degrees Celsius, something like that. Was it 00:32? So it's got to 47 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:08.180 be 10, 10 or 15, something like that. So nippy, but not freezing. 48 00:03:08.900 --> 00:03:12.860 I'll trust you on that. Yeah, well, I had a 49 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:16.820 lady on the other day from Atlanta in Georgia and she was saying that 50 00:03:16.820 --> 00:03:20.100 had snow forecast there, which is kind of unheard of. So the weather in the 51 00:03:20.100 --> 00:03:24.060 States at the moment is all over the place. Very much 52 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:27.900 so. This February has had really large swings to very, 53 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:31.860 very hot weather, like 15 degrees over the average to very, very low 54 00:03:31.860 --> 00:03:35.240 weather. So it's been a bit unpredictable. Wow. So 55 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.560 your superpower and what you do is all around neuro inclusive, 56 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.280 coaching around adhd. So how isn't 57 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.080 traditional coaching neuro inclusive? So there's a lot of different 58 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:51.080 elements to that, but I think you can kind of summarise it with whether 59 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.360 or not it is in the forefront of what you're thinking about when you're working 60 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:58.280 with your members of how am I expecting this member to 61 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:02.240 present? Am I expecting them to adopt my style? Am I 62 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.100 really meeting them where they are at? So a couple examples 63 00:04:06.100 --> 00:04:09.980 will be just first, starting the coaching session as it's very 64 00:04:09.980 --> 00:04:13.780 common to do very wide questions of how have things been 65 00:04:13.780 --> 00:04:17.300 since I've last seen you? All of a sudden there's a lot of different factors 66 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.700 to be thinking about when you can narrow down the scope, make it a little 67 00:04:20.700 --> 00:04:24.620 easier for the person to focus on what's most meaningful for 68 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:28.540 them. So asking about the topic from the last time we spoke, asking about a 69 00:04:28.540 --> 00:04:32.360 particular goal that you had set, those are a way that you can already start 70 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.040 the energy in the conversation without widening it so far 71 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:39.520 that the person really has to think about all the different variables. And we know 72 00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:43.320 that from divergent thinking that can be very common. So even just from the 73 00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:46.880 initial start of the session, that's one way you can make it more neuro 74 00:04:46.880 --> 00:04:50.520 inclusive. But there's several points actually the entire 75 00:04:50.520 --> 00:04:54.360 session that you can be adopting your own practise to make it 76 00:04:54.440 --> 00:04:58.290 most impactful for your member. So, yeah, I'm aware that if 77 00:04:58.290 --> 00:05:01.690 you ask an open question such as how are you? Or tell me about yourself, 78 00:05:01.770 --> 00:05:05.650 that could be too broad, you might need more narrowing 79 00:05:05.650 --> 00:05:09.050 that down to what do you actually want to do? Tell me about yourself. Well, 80 00:05:09.050 --> 00:05:11.210 I'm 5 foot 10 inches tall, 81 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:16.490 160 odd pounds, whatever. Yeah. So we end up going down the 82 00:05:16.490 --> 00:05:20.410 Wrong route. So I guess what you're trying to do here is be open but 83 00:05:20.570 --> 00:05:24.070 explicit in the response you're looking for. Yeah, 84 00:05:24.070 --> 00:05:28.070 exactly. So a modification. How are you today? That's a 85 00:05:28.070 --> 00:05:32.030 very particular thing to be answering. What am I feeling right now? What 86 00:05:32.270 --> 00:05:36.030 encouraged you to sign up for coaching? Tell me about the moment that you hit 87 00:05:36.030 --> 00:05:39.469 book a consultation call or the moment that you hit sign up. 88 00:05:39.790 --> 00:05:43.750 That's incredibly useful information of we're probably going to start 89 00:05:43.750 --> 00:05:47.590 with what you want coaching about or how you're feeling about yourself right now. Usually 90 00:05:47.590 --> 00:05:51.510 when someone signs up for coaching, it is a very raw and vulnerable moment 91 00:05:51.510 --> 00:05:54.670 of I'm going to choose to have someone in my life to partner with, to 92 00:05:54.670 --> 00:05:58.630 reach my goals. I feel like I really need someone by my side, I 93 00:05:58.630 --> 00:06:02.510 need someone to collaborate with. They've put a lot of trust in you 94 00:06:02.510 --> 00:06:06.430 by hitting that, that first button and it's an incredible moment to talk about, 95 00:06:06.430 --> 00:06:09.790 of how did you decide I was the right coach for you? Or how did 96 00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:12.510 you decide ADHD coaching was the right one for you? 97 00:06:13.950 --> 00:06:17.890 It's a much more meaningful start to the engagement. So what you're doing a lot 98 00:06:17.890 --> 00:06:21.610 of then is helping people who aren't neurotypical, 99 00:06:21.610 --> 00:06:25.450 who have ADHD, navigate, if you like, the 100 00:06:25.450 --> 00:06:29.210 neurotypical world. Is that base some of the coaching there? Yeah, 101 00:06:29.210 --> 00:06:33.170 absolutely. So it's not just, how do I fit into 102 00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:37.090 a neurotypical world? That might be something that we discuss, what systems and 103 00:06:37.090 --> 00:06:40.610 structures help them be most successful? Unfortunately, a lot of 104 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:44.570 workplaces in particular have a neurotypical approach 105 00:06:44.650 --> 00:06:48.400 to how they do things and neurodiversity is sort of a 106 00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:52.840 side conversation. Neurodivergence in itself might not be addressed in 107 00:06:52.840 --> 00:06:56.120 the workplace. And of course, we're not just talking about the workplace, but we might 108 00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.120 be talking within families. As a parent in higher education, while you're in 109 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.960 college, people aren't necessarily talking about the tools and structures 110 00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:07.840 and concepts that are gonna help you thrive. It's sort of one of those 111 00:07:07.840 --> 00:07:11.800 things that you have to go find for yourself, which can be really disheartening of 112 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.480 no one's prioritising what I need in this. I have to go on this journey 113 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.610 by myself, so. So what we do is introduce you to different concepts that can 114 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:22.290 help you thrive and it feels more naturally leaning into your 115 00:07:22.290 --> 00:07:25.770 strengths. Most of the people I've talked to on this podcast have 116 00:07:26.570 --> 00:07:29.890 been coming from the angle of educating employers, 117 00:07:29.890 --> 00:07:33.810 organisations on neuro inclusivity. What 118 00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:37.690 we're doing here and talking about today really is how we help 119 00:07:38.090 --> 00:07:41.930 an individual Self advocate and navigate the world themselves. 120 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:46.960 Not coming from a how could my organisation help them, but 121 00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:50.920 how can they help themselves? That's a really interesting angle. I've never discussed this 122 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.920 before. I suppose no two people are the same, are they? We 123 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.760 can't create a stereotype of a neurodiverse person. Is this 124 00:07:58.760 --> 00:08:02.320 or has that? Not everybody has the same 125 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.000 hyper focus or the same attention deficit as another person. 126 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.560 So I guess you have to first mission is, I guess, discovering 127 00:08:12.110 --> 00:08:15.990 how that person sees the world. So while there, there may be 128 00:08:15.990 --> 00:08:19.830 common traits of, you know, impulsivity or distractibility, what 129 00:08:19.830 --> 00:08:23.790 we're looking at is more of a spiky wheel. When we're thinking about neurodivergence, 130 00:08:23.790 --> 00:08:27.510 a lot of people view a linear line of more 131 00:08:27.510 --> 00:08:31.310 neurotypical, more neurodivergent. That's not really what we're looking at. 132 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:35.270 We're looking at a spiky wheel where there's different facets of a person. So how 133 00:08:35.270 --> 00:08:39.269 they engage socially, their learning styles, how they 134 00:08:39.269 --> 00:08:41.789 like to. I guess that's the same thing I was gonna say how they like 135 00:08:41.789 --> 00:08:44.949 to communicate, but how they organise their thoughts, 136 00:08:45.669 --> 00:08:49.589 those are all different ways that someone may be more or less social. 137 00:08:49.589 --> 00:08:53.469 And that's one particular area. So rather than it being categorical, it's 138 00:08:53.469 --> 00:08:57.269 very dynamic in how we view a person. So what are the typical challenges that 139 00:08:57.269 --> 00:09:00.709 a neurodivergent person may face in their workplace? 140 00:09:01.509 --> 00:09:05.080 What sort of things holding them back? Normally, yeah. So sometimes 141 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.440 it's whether or not they get to utilise their strengths. A lot of times 142 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:12.080 neurodivergent people are incredibly creative. They do well with 143 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.880 collaboration and brainstorming. If they're in a role where it might 144 00:09:15.880 --> 00:09:19.800 be more isolated, might be more independent work, they might notice that 145 00:09:19.880 --> 00:09:23.560 it's hard to get the energy and motivation to complete their tasks because 146 00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:27.320 it's not as engaging. When something's not engaging can be much 147 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:31.280 harder to start on a project. And when that's happening, you might see 148 00:09:31.280 --> 00:09:35.170 that deadlines so sort of rule the work is as a deadline approach, you 149 00:09:35.170 --> 00:09:38.970 start kicking it into gear because it's due. So you might feel 150 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:42.810 particularly stressed on how you're accomplishing tasks. It can feel pretty 151 00:09:42.810 --> 00:09:46.650 overwhelming towards that end. Perhaps you're missing the deadline because you under 152 00:09:46.650 --> 00:09:50.530 or overestimated how much work was going to be included. We know 153 00:09:50.530 --> 00:09:54.490 over and underestimation is a big part of creating 154 00:09:54.490 --> 00:09:58.410 realistic goals, is what seems realistic. Once you start breaking it 155 00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:02.340 down, getting granular with time estimation, you might have been a little bit off 156 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:05.500 the mark and now your boss is asking where a project is. It's not a 157 00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:09.260 great feeling. That's something that we commonly see getting to work on 158 00:10:09.260 --> 00:10:13.220 time. So again being able to get out the door, get to a 159 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:16.220 meeting on time, joining a meeting late if you're virtual. 160 00:10:17.020 --> 00:10:19.180 That's something that we commonly see 161 00:10:20.220 --> 00:10:24.060 organisational systems. So being able to track and manage projects across 162 00:10:24.140 --> 00:10:27.670 time, those little details can often get missed or 163 00:10:27.830 --> 00:10:31.790 memory. Memory is a big part of it as well. Of do I 164 00:10:31.790 --> 00:10:34.870 remember what was assigned to me in a meeting? Do I remember what the agenda 165 00:10:34.870 --> 00:10:38.430 was? What did I have a, when I had a conversation with Joe, what did 166 00:10:38.430 --> 00:10:41.510 I say during that? Those are all components. Of course the list can go on, 167 00:10:41.510 --> 00:10:45.270 but I think that's probably a good beginning conversation of what we're talking 168 00:10:45.270 --> 00:10:49.270 about. I'm smiling because it sounds like you're talking to 169 00:10:49.270 --> 00:10:52.950 me here. A lot of people have that reaction of 170 00:10:53.030 --> 00:10:56.520 wait a second, there's something that can be done about this. Hmm. 171 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:00.800 So I've learned that I'm terrible at taking notes and if I do take notes 172 00:11:00.800 --> 00:11:04.080 I never go and read them again. If I don't remember it, I don't often 173 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.640 refer back. And I've found that using AI note takers now in video 174 00:11:07.640 --> 00:11:10.720 calls helps me get a list of actions that come out of it. I can, 175 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:13.960 I. And because they're bite size I can, I can work on that. It's just 176 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:17.880 the whole enormity of hours conversation I think what did I 177 00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:21.320 agree with, what did I quote? Yeah. And 178 00:11:21.640 --> 00:11:25.340 the deadline thing resonates with me as well. You know I, I'm a five minute 179 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:29.020 to midnight person. You know, I've had six months to do something and then five 180 00:11:29.020 --> 00:11:32.900 minutes before the deadline I try and pal it all in and then go hmm, 181 00:11:32.900 --> 00:11:36.820 I've over committed here or under resourced and it becomes a 182 00:11:36.820 --> 00:11:40.660 nightmare. And I think the other problem I have is that I can often find 183 00:11:40.660 --> 00:11:44.540 myself wanting to over deliver in 184 00:11:44.540 --> 00:11:48.460 that five minutes as well. I have this big expectation in my head 185 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:51.020 that I've mapped it all out and I just want to go over have it 186 00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:54.620 all. It's, it's trying to optimise down what you've got time for, what you're going 187 00:11:54.620 --> 00:11:58.180 to deliver and it doesn't have to be perfect. I think I just want to 188 00:11:58.420 --> 00:12:02.340 perfect everything that could be in my downfall as well. Everything you're saying, it 189 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:06.220 resonates with me completely. Yeah. And the, the over promising, 190 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:09.660 I just want to comment on that real quick is if you know you're going 191 00:12:09.660 --> 00:12:13.660 to be late On a project sometimes we try to mitigate that 192 00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:17.550 a little bit. So I'll hear members say, well it's going to be a 193 00:12:17.550 --> 00:12:20.790 day late but I'm going to add in this. And now they've added more to 194 00:12:20.790 --> 00:12:24.310 their plate to make up for the fact it's going to be late, adding more 195 00:12:24.310 --> 00:12:27.950 pressure, which makes sense of okay, how do I balance out this 196 00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:32.230 maybe bad news or inconvenient news with something good and then 197 00:12:32.230 --> 00:12:35.510 I've added more to my plate which maybe wasn't realistic. It makes a lot of 198 00:12:35.510 --> 00:12:39.390 sense but. It also the mountain 199 00:12:39.390 --> 00:12:41.990 gets higher at that point, doesn't it? Not only have you not done the first 200 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:44.790 thing, you haven't done the second thing and the third thing you've over promised. So 201 00:12:44.790 --> 00:12:48.550 yeah, it's a real challenge. Yeah, yeah. It becomes a cycle. And 202 00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:52.750 I want to be clear that if you work really well with that 203 00:12:52.750 --> 00:12:56.190 late pressure and you deliver on time, that's not a wrong way to go about 204 00:12:56.190 --> 00:13:00.110 it. That's perfectly acceptable system of I know I 205 00:13:00.110 --> 00:13:02.790 can get it done in this time and it's good quality and it's working for 206 00:13:02.790 --> 00:13:06.390 me. We're talking about when it's not working for you of 207 00:13:06.950 --> 00:13:09.950 my boss is a little upset or the client I'm working with is a little 208 00:13:09.950 --> 00:13:13.830 upset about the deadlines. I don't feel good after doing 48 hours 209 00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:17.630 of all nighters to get this process project in. That's when we're talking about like 210 00:13:17.630 --> 00:13:21.630 what systems need to change. But if your system's working that's, that's fine, 211 00:13:21.630 --> 00:13:25.110 you don't have to do it like everyone else. That's the great thing about our 212 00:13:25.110 --> 00:13:28.870 work is as long as it's working, fantastic. But sometimes it's not. 213 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:32.790 So mine comes from learned behaviour. I've been in the workplace for best 214 00:13:32.790 --> 00:13:36.270 part of 40 years now and I've learned that so often the 215 00:13:36.270 --> 00:13:40.110 goalposts change, the deadlines change or the whole project gets cancelled or 216 00:13:40.110 --> 00:13:44.070 something radical happens to the projects. I think there's no point investing in it too 217 00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:48.030 early because it's bound to change nearer the dates. I wait until I think, well 218 00:13:48.110 --> 00:13:51.950 it's going to be locked in by now so I can actually hit something. So 219 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:55.550 I think some of it is just recognising that the world's going to change before 220 00:13:55.550 --> 00:13:59.230 I get there and my brain just apologises to 221 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:02.670 myself saying well we'll do it the last minute by that stage. 222 00:14:03.150 --> 00:14:07.070 And also I think if you overthink something when the deadline 223 00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:11.020 squeezes down you, you don't get the opportunity to do all the overthinking. You have 224 00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:14.740 to kind of optimise what you can do in that five minutes. I've got to 225 00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:18.020 get it out now. Okay, what can I do out of all the 50 things 226 00:14:18.020 --> 00:14:21.980 I was going to do? And you just make optimise it down. So I think 227 00:14:21.980 --> 00:14:25.220 that helps my brain as well, knowing that I can only achieve so much at 228 00:14:25.220 --> 00:14:28.540 the time and I can praise it down quickly. 229 00:14:29.180 --> 00:14:33.140 Yeah, that definitely really emphasises 230 00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:37.020 quick decision making is there's no time for ambiguity or just being 231 00:14:37.020 --> 00:14:40.890 decisive. Sometimes it can be very hard to be decisive and the reason 232 00:14:40.890 --> 00:14:43.970 for that is there's a little bit of decision fatigue when you're looking at large 233 00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:47.930 projects. You know, keeping our focus in the workplaces there can be so many 234 00:14:47.930 --> 00:14:51.210 decisions that it becomes overwhelming to pick any. 235 00:14:52.010 --> 00:14:55.450 So when the time crunch comes in, I just have to execute. And it's not 236 00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:58.530 about weighing the pros and cons anymore, it's just about what's going to get the 237 00:14:58.530 --> 00:15:02.210 job done. When you're working with neurodivergent clients or neurodivergent 238 00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:05.780 colleagues, they're going to be considering a lot of different 239 00:15:05.780 --> 00:15:09.780 decisions that neurotypicals might not see. They might not see all the options. 240 00:15:09.780 --> 00:15:12.820 They might be pretty narrow in scope. But that's the great thing about your neuro 241 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:16.780 virgin colleague is they can see the big picture pretty clearly. They see the opportunities, 242 00:15:16.780 --> 00:15:20.660 the greater possibilities, thinking. But it can also put them in a bind of 243 00:15:20.660 --> 00:15:24.180 how do I proceed in the best way. So I think about in a 244 00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:27.780 workplace I. I've got a manager who 245 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:32.320 self identifies as neurotypical. I'll take their word for it if that's who they say 246 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.400 they are. And I walk in there as a person who is 247 00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:40.040 unsure of their typicality and maybe has some traits or so 248 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.280 how do I navigate that interface? Because do I 249 00:15:44.280 --> 00:15:48.240 declare my neurodivergence, do I talk about my attributes, how I 250 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.120 behave in certain situations? So I do also like a little check 251 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.800 sheet of who am I and how do I respond best and then negotiate that 252 00:15:55.800 --> 00:15:59.560 at the beginning. I mean, is that a good technique or. So it largely depends 253 00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:03.510 on the workplace because just as much as it is about, I 254 00:16:03.510 --> 00:16:07.270 want to advocate for myself. We know that not all workplaces may be 255 00:16:07.270 --> 00:16:10.670 receptive. We don't know what the psychological safety of that workplace is. 256 00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:14.230 So I would hesitate to give any recommendation of you need to do it this 257 00:16:14.230 --> 00:16:18.070 way. You do not disclose it's largely dependent on the 258 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:22.070 support system that you have at work, what your relationship with hr, what your 259 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:25.990 relationship with your manager or the members of your team. But there 260 00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:29.540 is a way to navigate and ask for what you need 261 00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:32.820 without having to disclose if that's something that you're not sure of. 262 00:16:33.380 --> 00:16:37.100 Rather than sharing a specific diagnosis, you can talk about 263 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:40.900 the different components within it. So for time management, I 264 00:16:40.900 --> 00:16:44.859 noticed that I really struggle to get this type of project 265 00:16:44.859 --> 00:16:48.660 in on time. I'm hoping to discover different accountability systems or 266 00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:52.540 different collaboration systems that can help me move forward. You 267 00:16:52.540 --> 00:16:55.620 can also talk about. Instead of time management, you can talk about. 268 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:00.530 Everything is blanking right now, but like note taking. So coming out of meetings, 269 00:17:01.330 --> 00:17:05.170 there's really great information that's coming. At our meetings, we 270 00:17:05.170 --> 00:17:08.010 do hour and a half meetings. That's a lot for me to take away. I 271 00:17:08.010 --> 00:17:11.890 notice that when I'm writing notes, I'm not engaged in the conversation. What are 272 00:17:11.890 --> 00:17:15.690 the options for me to get the agenda before or after? Can someone email 273 00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:19.330 me a copy of the notes? That way we're talking about engagement. 274 00:17:19.410 --> 00:17:23.350 What is the workplace going to see as a benefit to you getting this new 275 00:17:23.350 --> 00:17:27.270 resource for this new accommodate? You don't actually have to name ADHD or memory 276 00:17:27.270 --> 00:17:31.150 issues. You can say the workplace is going to benefit. And this. I mean 277 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:34.790 now we're. We're normalising conversations about menopause in the work workplace. 278 00:17:35.910 --> 00:17:38.830 People of a certain women of a certain age or a certain stage of their 279 00:17:38.830 --> 00:17:42.630 life have memory issues, brain fog as well. So it's not. It's. 280 00:17:42.710 --> 00:17:45.830 Many people have a neuro 281 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:50.410 difference, if you like, at different stages of their life. And is there still a 282 00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:54.090 stigma? Is that still a problem? Is there stigma out there? I think 283 00:17:54.090 --> 00:17:58.050 it shows up in different ways. Some workplaces it's going to be much 284 00:17:58.050 --> 00:18:01.650 more stigmatised of. This is how we do things and we expect you to 285 00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:05.569 conform. It can be really jarring to try to disclose in 286 00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:09.090 a workplace like that. There might be some workplaces where there's very 287 00:18:09.090 --> 00:18:12.650 obvious signals that it's meant to be psychologically safe. The. 288 00:18:12.810 --> 00:18:16.810 The CEO is talking about their neurodivergence. Your boss is talking about it. 289 00:18:16.810 --> 00:18:20.730 They have a group for neurodivergent colleagues to come together and work on 290 00:18:20.730 --> 00:18:24.670 project. I think there is a lot more to go 291 00:18:24.670 --> 00:18:28.390 with this conversation while it's becoming more visible and more public 292 00:18:28.550 --> 00:18:32.470 and that's incredible. I would say the general public's 293 00:18:32.470 --> 00:18:36.470 understanding of what narrow divergence is is still in the beginning stages. While we're starting 294 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:40.430 to move away from the stigma of that word, the behaviours 295 00:18:40.430 --> 00:18:44.190 and traits and what this looks like in day to day isn't fully understood quite 296 00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:47.680 yet. We've already established that two neurodivergent people 297 00:18:47.840 --> 00:18:50.480 are having unique experience of the world. 298 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.280 In the same way that if I was trying to interface with a neurotypical person, 299 00:18:55.280 --> 00:18:59.080 if I was to interface into a neurodivergent person, we still have to 300 00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:02.560 establish the protocols and the ground rules, won't we, about how we communicate, because 301 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.840 we may have a difference of view, or we may actually 302 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:10.800 rely on the other person to help us out in certain instances, and the other 303 00:19:10.800 --> 00:19:14.470 person's going to go, well, I don't do that either. That becomes another 304 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:17.670 challenge to deal with, I guess. Yeah, it takes, 305 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:22.670 I would say, radical communication of your needs. And I think that's something that 306 00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:26.670 across the board, we could all do better at. Not just neurodivergent people, 307 00:19:26.670 --> 00:19:30.670 but also neurotypical people of. Rather than expecting people to communicate in the same 308 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:34.510 way as you. Making those declarations of, this is when I feel 309 00:19:34.510 --> 00:19:38.470 heard. This is how I like to collaborate. How do you like to have these 310 00:19:38.470 --> 00:19:42.390 conversations? Rather than making assumptions, we can really come together, 311 00:19:43.060 --> 00:19:46.340 you know, workplaces, families, friendships. When we are 312 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:50.580 very transparent about our needs because the other person is. I 313 00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:54.460 know it's cliche, but we are not mind readers. We all perceive things to be 314 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:58.340 a little bit different. While I may really enjoy eye contact in a 315 00:19:58.340 --> 00:20:02.260 conversation and I know you're listening to me, for someone else, eye contact 316 00:20:02.260 --> 00:20:05.700 may be very uncomfortable. And being expected to hold eye contact 317 00:20:06.100 --> 00:20:09.380 means that they don't want to engage with you. It can actually harm a relationship. 318 00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:13.330 So little things like that. What I might read as you being 319 00:20:13.330 --> 00:20:17.170 dismissive because you're not making eye contact with me, you might be fully engaged in 320 00:20:17.170 --> 00:20:21.170 the conversation. We don't know unless we. We talk about how we engage socially. 321 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:24.730 Yeah, I find this sometimes when I'm on video calls, I'll be looking at this 322 00:20:24.730 --> 00:20:28.490 screen or that screen or this screen up there, and I'm gathering 323 00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:32.330 information and without doing it. Now, as we're doing this podcast, I've got some 324 00:20:32.330 --> 00:20:36.210 notes on different screens so I can listen and look on a different 325 00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:39.910 screen at the same time. But I suppose when you're in a video scenario, you 326 00:20:39.910 --> 00:20:43.510 don't always know, do you? And people may treat that as being inattentive, not 327 00:20:43.510 --> 00:20:47.190 focusing. Exactly. They may think that you're not engaged, and 328 00:20:47.190 --> 00:20:50.870 that's not the case. When I'm coaching with members, I have several members that choose 329 00:20:50.870 --> 00:20:54.790 to close their eyes while we're talking, and it helps them think better. They tune 330 00:20:54.790 --> 00:20:58.670 into our conversation more. They might feel Less distracted by their environment. 331 00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:03.950 That's a. Okay. I never stop to say, can you please open your eyes? 332 00:21:04.190 --> 00:21:08.150 I know they're engaging. They're responding to my questions and that's great. We 333 00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:12.000 all are being engaged in a different way. Are we 334 00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:15.920 kind of hung up on these social etiquette, this social construct 335 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.880 of social etiquette, if you like, where we kind of expect people to 336 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.800 behave as we were brought up or how we were told to behave. 337 00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:27.800 And when people transgress or digress from that middle 338 00:21:27.800 --> 00:21:31.640 line, we feel kind of insulted or threatened by it. Same 339 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.520 thing with not just the. Maybe the more facial cues we were talking 340 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:39.470 about, but the use of a fidget, for example. A lot of times 341 00:21:39.470 --> 00:21:43.390 people associate it with like hyperactive little kids, but that's not the 342 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.630 case. It can be helpful for your colleague that's at their desk to have a 343 00:21:46.630 --> 00:21:50.150 fidget in a meeting to use a fidget. That doesn't mean they're distracted by it. 344 00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:52.630 It might actually be helping them engage. Exactly. 345 00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:57.710 Yep. Got fidget toys with me. Got my little shark here, which 346 00:21:57.710 --> 00:22:00.470 I need to sort of play with that. So I've got fidget toys all around 347 00:22:00.470 --> 00:22:03.750 me at the moment. So that might not be common in a lot of workplaces. 348 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.520 So it's even things like that of what do we expect from the body 349 00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:10.760 to be doing? Rather than just like, how do I show engagement of nodding my 350 00:22:10.760 --> 00:22:14.760 head and making eye contact. It's also, is it okay that 351 00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:18.760 they're spinning in their chair? Of course, there may be times and places where some 352 00:22:18.760 --> 00:22:22.160 behaviours are more adaptive than others. Of this helps everyone 353 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.840 concentrate more. That might be a bit of a balance on how we make sure 354 00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:29.760 everyone gets to be comfortable in that conversation or be engaged. 355 00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:33.690 But it's something that is better not 356 00:22:34.010 --> 00:22:37.890 assumed automatically of just making sure everyone's on the same page for 357 00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:41.450 what's going to be most conducive to this meeting. Why do you think there are 358 00:22:41.850 --> 00:22:45.610 more people? I'm going to use the phrase coming out 359 00:22:45.610 --> 00:22:49.570 as neurodivergent ADHD neurodifferences. What's 360 00:22:49.570 --> 00:22:53.410 changed over the last five, 10 years? We hear people blaming vaccines, we hear people 361 00:22:53.410 --> 00:22:57.170 blaming this and blaming that, but the reality is, obviously 362 00:22:57.170 --> 00:23:01.030 neurodivergent people have been around as long as humans have. So 363 00:23:01.030 --> 00:23:04.950 why are people starting to be more aware of neurodivergence now than 364 00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:08.830 ever before? Yeah, so I do want to be very clear that 365 00:23:08.830 --> 00:23:12.190 when I'm talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a natural 366 00:23:12.190 --> 00:23:15.750 variation in how people present it is 367 00:23:16.310 --> 00:23:20.190 not something to be fixed, healed, treated. This is something that 368 00:23:20.190 --> 00:23:23.750 we're working with, this is something that we can be managed when there's difficulties. But 369 00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:27.750 there's also plenty of benefits with having a neurodivergent brain and I 370 00:23:27.750 --> 00:23:30.780 would say it's largely contributed to visibility of 371 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:36.220 20 years ago. The conversations looked very different, the stigma looked very 372 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:39.580 different and a lot of people avoided a label for their child. 373 00:23:40.300 --> 00:23:44.260 So I hear plenty of times of, you know, I noticed my kid 374 00:23:44.260 --> 00:23:47.740 when he was 5 or 6 or my daughter in high school, I had some 375 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:50.940 questions but I didn't know what a label would do, I didn't know how it 376 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:54.620 would impact her self esteem or I didn't know what that would mean for their 377 00:23:54.620 --> 00:23:58.580 career. So they elected to not move forward with it. They didn't necessarily 378 00:23:58.580 --> 00:24:02.130 have those conversations with their kids or in the 379 00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:05.770 opposite. The child gets a diagnosis, you know, in high school 380 00:24:05.770 --> 00:24:09.370 and the parent starts thinking, well, that reminded me, 381 00:24:09.450 --> 00:24:12.530 like, reminds me of when I was in high school and I don't think that 382 00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:16.210 I'm neurodivergent and they go seek a conversation with a medical 383 00:24:16.210 --> 00:24:19.930 provider and they get a diagnosis. So it works both ways of 384 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:24.850 just having more exposure, I think, as more medical providers 385 00:24:24.850 --> 00:24:28.810 get accustomed to being able to identify neurodivergence, as schools get 386 00:24:29.530 --> 00:24:33.450 more curious about what's going on with the child, rather than describing it as 387 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:37.050 a behavioural problem of, you know, they're just naughty 388 00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:40.570 of, wow, they have a lot of energy, they seem to be really absorbed in 389 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:44.450 this type of task. As we get more curious across the board of what's going 390 00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:48.330 on with each person, we're starting to notice that more. People are neurodivergent 391 00:24:48.410 --> 00:24:52.250 and it differs by gender as well, doesn't it? So boys 392 00:24:52.250 --> 00:24:55.850 would exhibit symptoms in a different way to young 393 00:24:55.850 --> 00:24:59.550 girls, for example, which is why it's been misdiagnosed in women for 394 00:24:59.550 --> 00:25:03.270 decades. Yeah, so it can present differently. Of course, 395 00:25:03.510 --> 00:25:07.190 it's not a straight line of exactly how it presents for each gender, 396 00:25:07.350 --> 00:25:11.190 but it can look very different. And we know that misdiagnosis 397 00:25:11.190 --> 00:25:15.190 is very common. A lot of women are misdiagnosed as bipolar or 398 00:25:15.190 --> 00:25:18.150 borderline, rather than autistic or adhd. 399 00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:21.590 So there's also misdiagnosis that is later 400 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.320 correctly identified or what they feel like is now is better 401 00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.240