Rebecca Engle: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone
Joanne Lockwood: not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.
Joanne Lockwood: Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge
Joanne Lockwood: the status quo and share stories that resonate
Joanne Lockwood: deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're
Joanne Lockwood: sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's
Joanne Lockwood: connect, reflect and inspire action together.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out
Joanne Lockwood: to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Rebecca Engle: And today is episode 167 with the
Rebecca Engle: title Step Into My Shoes. And I have the absolute
Rebecca Engle: honour and privilege to welcome Rebecca Engle. Rebecca
Rebecca Engle: is a passionate special education teacher, an author,
Rebecca Engle: an advocate for neurodivergent students who is dedicated to creating
Rebecca Engle: inclusive learning environments and improving support systems
Rebecca Engle: for autistic learners. When I asked Rebecca to
Rebecca Engle: describe her super power, she said that it is her ability to
Rebecca Engle: transform her own personal experiences into actionable
Rebecca Engle: advocacy for inclusive education and student
Rebecca Engle: empowerment. Hello, Rebecca. Welcome to the show.
Rebecca Engle: Hello. Thank you for having me. Good to have you. I think we tried to
Rebecca Engle: sort this out before Christmas, but for one thing or another, we had to postpone
Rebecca Engle: it until now. So yeah, it's great to have you on. Yes. You mentioned just
Rebecca Engle: now that you're based in Texas, is that right? Yes,
Rebecca Engle: in the U.S. so what's the weather like at the moment? It is like 50
Rebecca Engle: degrees outside, but going up. Okay. So
Rebecca Engle: that's chilly but not cold. Yes. Yeah, yeah,
Rebecca Engle: yeah. So, Rebecca, you have your journey, you've been on as an autistic
Rebecca Engle: educator. It's quite inspiring reading through the notes. So can you
Rebecca Engle: tell me a bit about your personal journey? What got you into doing what you're
Rebecca Engle: doing? Yeah, sure. As a little girl,
Rebecca Engle: my mom realised there was something different about me. But I had two older brothers,
Rebecca Engle: so doctors were kind of like, don't compare her to
Rebecca Engle: your brother, your sons, like, you know, she's fine, she'll be fine.
Rebecca Engle: And my mom went for my brother's 5 year old checkup with me
Rebecca Engle: and I was newly 3.
Rebecca Engle: The my brother's doctor said something's wrong with her
Rebecca Engle: and my mom was like, finally someone said something.
Rebecca Engle: And my brother's doctor was my doctor's. Well, my doctor was my brother's
Rebecca Engle: doctor's boss, so you can imagine that argument that happened
Rebecca Engle: there. And so when all of this started going on, I was
Rebecca Engle: later diagnosed with pervasive elemental disorder, sensory processing disorder,
Rebecca Engle: auditory processing disorder, speech apraxia, you can name it.
Rebecca Engle: Multiple diagnoses. Now in modern day
Rebecca Engle: dsm, all of those fall on the autism spectrum at the age of three
Rebecca Engle: because of these diagnoses. I started in the early trial Childhood education
Rebecca Engle: programme which is for children that have disability, specifically to
Rebecca Engle: attend pre K in the us and so I attended an early
Rebecca Engle: childhood facility and learned how to
Rebecca Engle: function in school settings. I was in a setting like that for three
Rebecca Engle: years in a self contained classroom with other autistic
Rebecca Engle: disabled students and then went into the general education
Rebecca Engle: setting where I was, which is the setting without, with children without severe
Rebecca Engle: disabilities and was manipulated, mistreated by teachers,
Rebecca Engle: bullied, led to terrible things all the way until I got
Rebecca Engle: to the end of college really. And
Rebecca Engle: because of that mistreatment I faced as a student with a disability,
Rebecca Engle: I had a heart to make sure that that didn't happen
Rebecca Engle: to kids like me that are children today. It's quite a harrowing
Rebecca Engle: story that you had to go through that as a younger person. Tell me when
Rebecca Engle: you were aware that you were different or were you just
Rebecca Engle: you? I think I became aware that I was different around
Rebecca Engle: fourth, fifth grade. That's finally when my mom brought up my IEP
Rebecca Engle: and things and was like, yeah, that's why you leave the classroom for testing and
Rebecca Engle: that's why you're in speech. And I knew that I was in speech therapy
Rebecca Engle: and I knew that I had delays but I didn't really think anything of them
Rebecca Engle: or that they weren't things that every other child
Rebecca Engle: could have had meaning, like large masses of the population. So
Rebecca Engle: I kind of just was just being me. And then
Rebecca Engle: once fifth grade hit, there was where they started talking
Rebecca Engle: about, you know, how the transition to middle school would happen and which
Rebecca Engle: is, you know, 11, 12 years old. And they started pointing things
Rebecca Engle: out to me about my differences and I was kind of like, that's when
Rebecca Engle: I realised I was very different. And then as I went on through life,
Rebecca Engle: I still had those sensory bothersomes and things like that, you
Rebecca Engle: know, like I can't wear certain sweaters, certain clothes get to me.
Rebecca Engle: And when I would talk to friends about that and tell them how I
Rebecca Engle: reacted, they would kind of laugh and be like, oh, you feel that way with
Rebecca Engle: this? Like I would have no clue what that meant. And so as I kind
Rebecca Engle: of started having those discussions, those. That's when I realised I was different
Rebecca Engle: than my peers. And then when I got to college,
Rebecca Engle: most definitely, there was a lot of conversations that I was like, well, this is
Rebecca Engle: happening because I'm different. You know, And I would get comments on
Rebecca Engle: communication styles and things like that. And I was always very
Rebecca Engle: direct. I still am. And sometimes neurotypical people need
Rebecca Engle: things sugarcoated, and I'm very bad at that. That's fine.
Rebecca Engle: So you kind of. Cause I always think, you know, when we're in our
Rebecca Engle: own head, we just see the world as we've always seen it. We. Unless someone
Rebecca Engle: tells us we're different or we could become aware of it,
Rebecca Engle: we're just us. And so it was around that sort of age, around
Rebecca Engle: 11 or 12, that you realised that you were. I was gonna say struggling. I
Rebecca Engle: don't. I don't think struggling is the right word, but just had a different way
Rebecca Engle: of approaching things than other people. And. But
Rebecca Engle: obviously your parents were bothered by it, but were you ever bothered by
Rebecca Engle: it? Yeah, occasionally, I think I
Rebecca Engle: wasn't bothered by myself. I was bothered by other people's
Rebecca Engle: interpretation of me. Okay, so it's what people were, how people were treating you,
Rebecca Engle: describing you, talk about you, but you were happy in yourself.
Rebecca Engle: It was just other people that were their interaction with you.
Rebecca Engle: Mm. You were aware that you were different because of them? Yes.
Rebecca Engle: And is that. Is that your experience where you now work with autistic
Rebecca Engle: young children and people, how do they have a
Rebecca Engle: very similar sense of self where they. Not broken. They're just different.
Rebecca Engle: I think it depends on the kid. I have a lot of kids who do
Rebecca Engle: just live their life and they're different. You know, a lot of my au. Kiddos,
Rebecca Engle: autistic kiddos, they're just kind of like, yeah, I'm different, whatever. And
Rebecca Engle: they. They move along. I think a lot of my students with dyslexia,
Rebecca Engle: dysgraphia, things like that, they always tell me, I wish it was that
Rebecca Engle: easy. I wish this was easy. I'm dumb, you know, so I feel like they
Rebecca Engle: have a negative
Rebecca Engle: image of themselves. But there's a really good book that I always
Rebecca Engle: have them listen to when they call themselves dumb. And I think I'm trying
Rebecca Engle: to shape that image in them that, you know, it's the other people and
Rebecca Engle: not themselves. But I think it really depends on the kid. Yeah. Because
Rebecca Engle: I've always believed, if you like, that as a
Rebecca Engle: human species, we kind of evolved fifty hundred thousand
Rebecca Engle: years ago and we didn't have to read or Write. Back then we just
Rebecca Engle: did stuff. But I think this whole challenge with being
Rebecca Engle: dyslexic, dyspraxic is a modern thing
Rebecca Engle: because it never held people back 2, 300 years ago.
Rebecca Engle: Many of the population couldn't read or write 200 years
Rebecca Engle: ago unless you had wealth or affluence. Most people
Rebecca Engle: never learned to read or write. They had no books, they had no need to
Rebecca Engle: write. They were just living their life, getting on with earning
Rebecca Engle: a living, feeding themselves, keeping safe, wasn't it? So I often think that
Rebecca Engle: we're judging people against the human
Rebecca Engle: evolution that we weren't designed for necessarily. It's just something that we
Rebecca Engle: picked up. Yeah, that's a good point.
Rebecca Engle: So, yeah, I think it needs all types of people
Rebecca Engle: in society to make society fantastic. I think
Rebecca Engle: not being able to read and write or having a struggle with dyslexia, dyspraxia
Rebecca Engle: doesn't necessarily make you, doesn't make
Rebecca Engle: you wrong. I just think it means you've got other attributes that are fantastic.
Rebecca Engle: So what was the biggest challenge for you
Rebecca Engle: to overcome and learn? Because obviously you became aware
Rebecca Engle: that you had developmental differences to other people.
Rebecca Engle: What was the toughest thing that you found yourself to get
Rebecca Engle: to get over? I think as a young child, it was my developmental delays. But
Rebecca Engle: I think communication is what encompasses all of it. You know,
Rebecca Engle: when I was 4, I was non verbal, didn't talk at all. At 5, I
Rebecca Engle: only said 22 words in the English language. And then I slowly
Rebecca Engle: developed that vocabulary and then I picked it up quick. But even to this
Rebecca Engle: day, communication is probably my biggest flaw. And
Rebecca Engle: some people are like, there's nothing wrong with how you communicate. And then other people
Rebecca Engle: hate my form of communication. So I think it, I think
Rebecca Engle: communication is something. I still don't know what I'm doing incorrectly,
Rebecca Engle: but I'm a terrible communicator. I've been told multiple times that I'm too
Rebecca Engle: aggressive, I'm too direct. That's the Becca way of saying it.
Rebecca Engle: Um, my. I mean, I've literally hopped on a call with friends and
Rebecca Engle: said, yeah, I said this. And one of my friends is like, that's so Becca
Rebecca Engle: of you. And I'm like, still trying to figure out to this day what that
Rebecca Engle: means. And it's not just one person. So I think communication
Rebecca Engle: is probably my biggest barrier. Is there a difference between
Rebecca Engle: comprehension and communicating out
Rebecca Engle: backwards? So even when you were struggling and non
Rebecca Engle: verbal, could you understand, you just weren't able to speak back?
Rebecca Engle: Or was it a case of you didn't understand or weren't able
Rebecca Engle: to speak. I think both. Honestly, I feel like
Rebecca Engle: even now, I still struggle with comprehension. You know, one of the things I stress
Rebecca Engle: as a teacher is the sticky note strategy, because after about four or five words,
Rebecca Engle: I don't understand anything I'm reading unless I write something down. So.
Rebecca Engle: And it's the same with interpreting communication from other people,
Rebecca Engle: right? Like, when people are like this, this, this, this, this, this, this. I'm like,
Rebecca Engle: okay, start at square two. Like, I got square one started. Square two.
Rebecca Engle: So I think it. I think it goes both ways. You don't seem to struggle
Rebecca Engle: with me right at the moment. I don't have any problem.
Rebecca Engle: So Becca. Becca's style coming into it yet is that. Is that
Rebecca Engle: it's a fairly straightforward conversation at the moment, or is it you're
Rebecca Engle: in your comfort zone at the moment? I feel like I've gotten used to going
Rebecca Engle: on podcasts, and I've kind of gotten used on how to respond, and I feel
Rebecca Engle: like when I'm talking about my autism, the people who are
Rebecca Engle: watching are probably those who either want to educate themselves on
Rebecca Engle: autism or already have experience. So
Rebecca Engle: I kind of just don't feel a need to mask anything.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, that's. That's a good point. Yeah, that's very good point. So what would
Rebecca Engle: you. What would you say is the most misunderstood thing, if you want
Rebecca Engle: to call it a thing about being an autistic person or even
Rebecca Engle: just yourself? Yeah, think. I think trying to figure out the
Rebecca Engle: neurotypical mind and ways I feel like I
Rebecca Engle: as a neurodivergent individual, you know, I've even my boyfriend's
Rebecca Engle: neurotypical, and I'll text him and I'll be like, hey, what does this mean? And
Rebecca Engle: why would a neurotypical say that? Or, wait, that's something
Rebecca Engle: neurodivergent people do and not neurotypical people. And, like, he's literally
Rebecca Engle: had to explain to me, like, that that thing is not normal. That thing is
Rebecca Engle: normal. Or so I think just like, figuring out
Rebecca Engle: the mind of people who aren't neurodivergent is something that
Rebecca Engle: I struggle with. I don't know. I don't know how to put that. But, like,
Rebecca Engle: I've literally, like, seen a TikTok or an Instagram reel or something, and
Rebecca Engle: it's like, as a neurodivergent, doing this, and I'll, like, send it to him, and
Rebecca Engle: I'll be like, wait, not everyone does that. You know, like. And
Rebecca Engle: I'm still figuring things out at 22. That's. That doesn't
Rebecca Engle: sound Too dissimilar to maybe someone who's. Who's speaks
Rebecca Engle: German language from Germany, that they have a very direct, very
Rebecca Engle: intolerance of lots too many words. You know, they want to be really direct at
Rebecca Engle: you. Whereas Japanese people want to use lots of words and lots of
Rebecca Engle: descriptions. So as a native English speaker, I
Rebecca Engle: guess I come across people with different first languages. The way they
Rebecca Engle: communicate with me is different than a native English person. So what you're
Rebecca Engle: saying there is you're effectively translating between one set of language
Rebecca Engle: rules and another set of language rules, where you don't always have all of the
Rebecca Engle: guides to do that. Yep, yep, yeah.
Rebecca Engle: So the students you work with at the moment, so you work with them for
Rebecca Engle: what age? From year 5 or 5th
Rebecca Engle: grade all the way up. Or is it mainly older children? So I work with
Rebecca Engle: third, fourth and fifth grade, which is ages
Rebecca Engle: 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, depending.
Rebecca Engle: And I suppose by that age they've been diagnosed,
Rebecca Engle: they've got support available to them, which is why they're coming to you
Rebecca Engle: in some cases. No. Sometimes I feel like by third grade
Rebecca Engle: they're figuring it out that eight, nine years old, a lot of them, some have
Rebecca Engle: already been diagnosed, 10 and 11. It depends on
Rebecca Engle: how consistent their education has been.
Rebecca Engle: I work in a area with a high poverty rate
Rebecca Engle: and so sometimes in a high refugee rate
Rebecca Engle: as well. So a lot of the time we get kids from
Rebecca Engle: other countries who have lived here since third grade. So
Rebecca Engle: obviously in a third world country, they didn't have access
Rebecca Engle: to those resources, so they got diagnosed much later. So I think it just depends.
Rebecca Engle: You mentioned just now that neurodivergent people, people with autism,
Rebecca Engle: have maybe sometimes trouble deciphering a
Rebecca Engle: neurotypical conversation. Do you find the same when
Rebecca Engle: you're talking to other autistic young people, autistic people, where
Rebecca Engle: you start to translate what they're saying because their
Rebecca Engle: neurodiversity is different to yours or the way they communicate slightly different, or do
Rebecca Engle: you find it much easier to relate to people, autistic people? I find
Rebecca Engle: it much easier to relate to people on the spectrum. I feel like when I'm
Rebecca Engle: relating to people with autism, I feel like I get them.
Rebecca Engle: There have definitely been communication barriers with other neurodivergent
Rebecca Engle: folks where I'm like, hold on, explain that again. But I feel like I don't
Rebecca Engle: feel any need to mask around people who are also neurodivergent, so. And
Rebecca Engle: I feel like they feel the same way. So it's kind of more open and
Rebecca Engle: I feel like I comprehend them Better. Okay, so you're, you're both
Rebecca Engle: aware of your communication style, both
Rebecca Engle: acceptance of other communication styles and as you say,
Rebecca Engle: it's a safer space. You haven't got a mask or cover. You can just
Rebecca Engle: be yourself and they'll be themselves and you can just sort of laugh about it
Rebecca Engle: and go, what do you mean by that? What do you mean? You haven't got
Rebecca Engle: to pretend that you do understand and go, didn't get that.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, yeah. So what, what
Rebecca Engle: techniques did you find to help you overcome
Rebecca Engle: your developmental differences? So was it one to
Rebecca Engle: one coaching? Is it reading exercises? Is it
Rebecca Engle: a different way of learning to read phonetics or learning
Rebecca Engle: words? How did you approach
Rebecca Engle: developing those new skills? Yeah, my mother
Rebecca Engle: put like papers all around the house that had everything labelled
Rebecca Engle: with the word. So there was that. She was very, very supportive and read
Rebecca Engle: me all the time. So there's that too. And then I feel
Rebecca Engle: like as I got older, just like facing the
Rebecca Engle: realities of being different helped too. And like
Rebecca Engle: asking my neurotypical friends how to respond or how to do things in
Rebecca Engle: these situations was something that I picked up on. And sometimes
Rebecca Engle: just being called out like that's not how you engage with that this
Rebecca Engle: way or you know that this is how you have to respond in this instance
Rebecca Engle: in a positive way helped. But I think,
Rebecca Engle: I think a lot of it was just a lot of one on one with
Rebecca Engle: my mom. My mom journaled literally every movement I made with my body at one
Rebecca Engle: point. Like if I did this with my finger, like moved it
Rebecca Engle: upward, she would write it down, like literally everything I did with my body. And
Rebecca Engle: then she would find a way to respond to it, including my stimming. And I
Rebecca Engle: think that that helped as well. How did your stimming manifest?
Rebecca Engle: Is it literally just rocking or finger movements or
Rebecca Engle: was it having comfort toys? So as a kid it was
Rebecca Engle: flapping. I flapped like a bird. So I would literally start like waving my
Rebecca Engle: arms. I did a lot of back and forward rocking,
Rebecca Engle: a lot of circles. I think as a, in the textural
Rebecca Engle: stims were nail biting, biting my fingers, biting, biting
Rebecca Engle: things. And then now I do a lot of finger movements.
Rebecca Engle: I still sadly bite my nails, but a lot less frequently. But my typical
Rebecca Engle: stim for those watching via video, I kind of like tap my fingers
Rebecca Engle: like I'm playing an instrument. I don't know how to describe it or I rub
Rebecca Engle: my hands together to create like a friction sense.
Rebecca Engle: But it's funny because I'll have alone time in my classroom where I'm on a
Rebecca Engle: conference period or on lunch or whatever and I finally get to like de
Rebecca Engle: stress. And I'll stim and then a student will walk in
Rebecca Engle: and I'll be like, oh. And I'll like mask my whole body and go straight
Rebecca Engle: into like a real weird pause. So it's definitely
Rebecca Engle: my hand flapping and things definitely still come out. It's just when no one
Rebecca Engle: else is around. So how would you describe
Rebecca Engle: stimming manifests itself? Is it times when you're stressed? Is it times when you're
Rebecca Engle: lonely? Is it times when. I don't know, is there a
Rebecca Engle: particular trigger for stimming or is it just all of a sudden
Rebecca Engle: it comes back. I stim more when I'm lonely
Rebecca Engle: and then lonely and stressed really adds to it. But
Rebecca Engle: ultimately it's stress and anxiety that cause it.
Rebecca Engle: So something sort of stimulating your brain and it's a way of releasing that
Rebecca Engle: sort of kind of tension as a. Yep. So I.
Rebecca Engle: I pick my nails a lot these days. It really winds my wife up because
Rebecca Engle: she says, stop playing with me now. Stop playing with her. And I just find
Rebecca Engle: myself flicking my fingernails and playing with them and doing this with
Rebecca Engle: them all the time. And it winds her up completely. And I just get.
Rebecca Engle: I can't stop it. It just does it, you know, keep shouting at me, really
Rebecca Engle: like. But I'm going to keep doing it because it. When I'm
Rebecca Engle: driving, sometimes I'm doing. I'm driving on one. One hand is kind of.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. Playing with the nails. But yeah, it's. I can kind of relate
Rebecca Engle: to what you're saying. And yeah, having, having a. Having a toy or something
Rebecca Engle: in my hands or something like that just distracts me from playing with it. I
Rebecca Engle: can just squeeze this instead. So, yeah, I can relate to it. I
Rebecca Engle: wouldn't say I would. It's more fidgety, I suppose. Stimming. Yeah. Is
Rebecca Engle: there something that my brain needs to do as well? I
Rebecca Engle: said when I was school I used to doodle a lot. You know, just write,
Rebecca Engle: draw lots of circles and little things and lots of straight lines used to cross
Rebecca Engle: each other. My drawing stim is flowers. I draw a bunch of
Rebecca Engle: flowers or circles. I tended to draw H's
Rebecca Engle: the line across it and then I'd make the one part the H, another H
Rebecca Engle: and then another H and I ended up with a whole page full of joined
Rebecca Engle: together Hs. Okay, let's
Rebecca Engle: just do that all the time. Let's still do that now. If I'm just sort
Rebecca Engle: of. If I'm in a meeting, I'm bored. I'll just sort of. That's. That's my
Rebecca Engle: doodle is H's. Interconnected H's. Yeah. And
Rebecca Engle: so did you find that stimming even now?
Rebecca Engle: Do you get embarrassed by it or you just kind of go, whatever
Rebecca Engle: it is? I definitely get embarrassed by it. There was
Rebecca Engle: a thing on Instagram and it was like, it literally asked, like,
Rebecca Engle: ask your neurotypical boyfriend or girlfriend if
Rebecca Engle: they've ever seen you stim. And I sent it to him
Rebecca Engle: and I sent it to my boyfriend and I was like, hey, have you ever
Rebecca Engle: seen me stim? And he was like, all the time. And I was like, like,
Rebecca Engle: I didn't even realise I did it in front of him until he pointed it
Rebecca Engle: out and I was like, like, oops. And so
Rebecca Engle: just. It's funny, like, I feel like I. I feel like I'm now more self
Rebecca Engle: conscious about it and he doesn't care. Clearly he didn't point it out until.
Rebecca Engle: And that was two and a half years into our relationship. But
Rebecca Engle: I do definitely get embarrassed by it, especially when someone walks in on
Rebecca Engle: me and like, deep moment of stem. Even when I was. I had roommates in
Rebecca Engle: college and stuff. Yeah, I suppose the flapping one is quite,
Rebecca Engle: quite visual, isn't it? It's. Yeah. Hard to sort of. If people don't know that
Rebecca Engle: about you, it must be a bit of a shock. The first time they, they
Rebecca Engle: see you doing it, you go, what are you doing? Yes, it's okay. It's a
Rebecca Engle: Becca thing. It's a Becca thing.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. I suppose that must help. If you've got friends around you, boyfriend and other
Rebecca Engle: good friends who know you, as you say, you can be yourself around
Rebecca Engle: them and they can let you know what you're doing. Just for the simple.
Rebecca Engle: Oh, that's a Becca thing. That's a Becca does that. Yeah,
Rebecca Engle: that's what I do. Whatever. Yep.
Rebecca Engle: Going back to your teaching role is without putting an age on
Rebecca Engle: you. You probably went through this a fair while ago. You said you
Rebecca Engle: were in your 20s. I think you said,
Rebecca Engle: how has the education system. How has the world moved on and
Rebecca Engle: become more supportive in the last 15, 20 years? It must be completely
Rebecca Engle: different. There's more awareness of neurodiversity,
Rebecca Engle: autism or the asd, autistic spectrum disorder than
Rebecca Engle: there ever was now. Is it better now than it was?
Rebecca Engle: Honestly, I think that's a hard question to answer. I feel like, yes, like, if
Rebecca Engle: I wanted to say it in broad, but I don't think it's good enough. I
Rebecca Engle: think that we are in the middle of a Time as a society. And
Rebecca Engle: I don't know if this is global, but definitely in the US where
Rebecca Engle: we are figuring out how to motivate
Rebecca Engle: autistic students, how to motivate students in general, how to
Rebecca Engle: communicate with those students, how to make them a part of
Rebecca Engle: their general Ed peers. However, I don't think inclusion is where it
Rebecca Engle: needs to be in the US per se.
Rebecca Engle: We always say every kid is a gen Ed kid first. And it drives me
Rebecca Engle: crazy because it almost is saying
Rebecca Engle: this kid is neurodivergent when we allow
Rebecca Engle: them to be. What they mean
Rebecca Engle: by it in reality is that we're going to put them in a gen Ed
Rebecca Engle: setting first because their disability isn't all of who they are.
Rebecca Engle: But internally, to me, as a disabled individual, I kind of take it as
Rebecca Engle: like we're ignoring their disability and throwing them into a setting that's
Rebecca Engle: overstimulating and overwhelming in order for them to have friends who are normal.
Rebecca Engle: And that's how I interpret it. You know, the general
Rebecca Engle: ed setting is overstimulating. It's overwhelming. You have 30 other
Rebecca Engle: kids around you. It's crazy. And
Rebecca Engle: you know, we are trying to revise education across the states.
Rebecca Engle: You know, in the US education is really determined by the
Rebecca Engle: 50 states states rather than the federal government. And so you get kids
Rebecca Engle: who move across each state who are now trying to address two completely
Rebecca Engle: different roles. I know for me, right in Oklahoma, my
Rebecca Engle: educational experience, which is the state above Texas, was completely
Rebecca Engle: different than in Texas because I moved here right in the middle of it all.
Rebecca Engle: And I feel like that's still the case. You know, I've had kids come to
Rebecca Engle: me with an IEP from out of state and I read it and I'm like,
Rebecca Engle: well, we don't even have that type of setting or this doesn't even exist in
Rebecca Engle: Texas or. Well, we have a lot more than they had in this state. You
Rebecca Engle: know, and so it's like you kind of have to revise their whole education
Rebecca Engle: setting and then they're actually taking on more changes than their gen Ed
Rebecca Engle: peers, whatever. Because gen Ed education is almost exactly the
Rebecca Engle: same across all 50 states, except for what you're being taught
Rebecca Engle: at a certain age. And so
Rebecca Engle: for example, the system that we have to
Rebecca Engle: reward autistic kids for managing behaviour is
Rebecca Engle: what we call positive behavioural intervention supports. And that
Rebecca Engle: system is pretty much do this. It's very aba. If you're familiar with
Rebecca Engle: ABA therapy. No. Okay, well, ABA therapy is
Rebecca Engle: a system of. Here's a cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a
Rebecca Engle: cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a cookie. You did what I
Rebecca Engle: asked you to. But a lot of the time it's teaching
Rebecca Engle: to mask emotional regulation techniques.
Rebecca Engle: So like, oh, you didn't stim because you, when you stim, you accidentally
Rebecca Engle: slap a kid, right? Like, oh, you're hand flapping and your hand waves off.
Rebecca Engle: Right? Here's a cookie. Cause you didn't stim. Here's a cookie because you didn't stim.
Rebecca Engle: So it's almost like we're animal training kids with disabilities rather than.
Rebecca Engle: So just rewarding for good behaviour and taking the reward away
Rebecca Engle: for bad behaviour to make people conform.
Rebecca Engle: Learning how to mask to get reward. Yes,
Rebecca Engle: but also these behaviours aren't bad behaviours, they're emotional regulation
Rebecca Engle: behaviours. You know what I'm saying? Like bad behaviours are me going up to
Rebecca Engle: my teacher and slapping her across the face when I know how to
Rebecca Engle: talk, you know. But when we have a kid who's neurodivergent,
Rebecca Engle: is that child slapping them across the face as a way of communication because
Rebecca Engle: they can't talk. You know, it's basically rewarding neurotypical behaviour
Rebecca Engle: and trying to prevent people being neurodiverse. Because neurodiverse
Rebecca Engle: is bad. It's broken. It's not. Right? Correct.
Rebecca Engle: Right. Rather than recognising neurodiversity as valid, authentic
Rebecca Engle: and okay, just, just neurodivergent,
Rebecca Engle: neurotypical people just need to learn how to get along. And
Rebecca Engle: because you must find neurotypical people frustrating as well. They must.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. No one ever says they're, they're bad. You don't understand. It's funny because I'm
Rebecca Engle: a special education teacher right now, which means I teach kids with disabilities
Rebecca Engle: and everyone always asks me, would you ever teach your Gen Ed class as long
Rebecca Engle: as it had disabled kids in it, which is a class with inclusion. Right. And
Rebecca Engle: I was like, no, because I would favour all of the kids with
Rebecca Engle: disabilities and then all the other kids would get pushed to the side. But yeah,
Rebecca Engle: that's what I would call equity. It's giving
Rebecca Engle: the kids who need the help the help. That's what you're set up for, isn't
Rebecca Engle: it? So you use the term iep. What does IEP stand for?
Rebecca Engle: Individualised Education Plan. So it's the United
Rebecca Engle: States legal document for a child with disabilities to
Rebecca Engle: get individualised supports, one on one supports from a one on one
Rebecca Engle: staff member. So I would imagine that not
Rebecca Engle: every child exits education or
Rebecca Engle: their main education with
Rebecca Engle: qualifications able to function or
Rebecca Engle: is still Held back by their autism, their neurodiversity.
Rebecca Engle: What support is there? Is there other colleges
Rebecca Engle: where they can get support there as well or is it only
Rebecca Engle: really in the primary education? So in the USA we have what we call the
Rebecca Engle: iep, which is this classifies a student as a special education
Rebecca Engle: student. And so this student is getting modified
Rebecca Engle: work maybe that the whole entire assignment's getting modified and then
Rebecca Engle: it may even be grades below. Right. So we may be modifying a
Rebecca Engle: seventh grade assignment to second grade level. Meaning like
Rebecca Engle: this kid's 14 year old assignment is modified for a seven year old
Rebecca Engle: developmentally and then that
Rebecca Engle: includes like speech therapy, dyslexia, dysgraphia, things that really affect them in
Rebecca Engle: an educational setting. Once you graduate from that, if you ever do, some
Rebecca Engle: people will never. You typically go on a 504
Rebecca Engle: plan, which is a section 504, which 19 states are actually trying
Rebecca Engle: to get rid of right now. If you want to look into that, it's fun.
Rebecca Engle: But the Section504 system is pretty much just a
Rebecca Engle: protection accommodations letter almost. And it's like we can accommodate
Rebecca Engle: you in this way for you to attend to the genera ed population
Rebecca Engle: that could be you take tests in a smaller room. We're going to give you
Rebecca Engle: 50 questions instead of 150 on this test.
Rebecca Engle: We will make it so you have five extra minutes to walk to class
Rebecca Engle: if you have something wrong with your mobility. Right. Like it's those
Rebecca Engle: tiny things and that's called a 504 plan. And that's what would go to college
Rebecca Engle: if the child attended wanted to attend college, that a
Rebecca Engle: documentation would go into with them with college and IEP would not got.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. Understand. Is there a
Rebecca Engle: perceived reduction in the support? You know, the last
Rebecca Engle: month or so there's been a pullback on DEI initiatives. Do these
Rebecca Engle: initiatives still carry on? Are these seen as DEI initiatives or are
Rebecca Engle: these seen as iep, which is different? They
Rebecca Engle: are different. There are. Because
Rebecca Engle: DEI started in the United States way later than an IEP process did.
Rebecca Engle: The IEP process is interesting in that it's been around
Rebecca Engle: really since we did the idea laws,
Rebecca Engle: which were done in like the 1990s, 1980s
Rebecca Engle: and then DEI was more recent in the 2000s.
Rebecca Engle: So no one's necessarily trying to get rid of IEPs. There are 19
Rebecca Engle: states currently in a lawsuit with my city state to get rid of section
Rebecca Engle: 504. I don't, I haven't done enough research to determine if it's to replace it
Rebecca Engle: with something else or just hurt those with disabilities.
Rebecca Engle: From what I understand though, it's just to get rid of it completely. And so
Rebecca Engle: that that's on an attack with the DEI changes.
Rebecca Engle: But I feel like DEI in the way
Rebecca Engle: I've experienced it in the us and it shouldn't be this way, but it
Rebecca Engle: has been this way is more so centred towards race
Rebecca Engle: and ethnicity in the United, rather than the inclusion
Rebecca Engle: practises of disabilities. It's in the name that it should be. But I'll tell
Rebecca Engle: you that my school that had DEI classes,
Rebecca Engle: my university, I took a DEI class
Rebecca Engle: and the same professors told me that I needed to learn how to mask my
Rebecca Engle: autism. Like the professor teaching the DEI class told me that I needed to hide
Rebecca Engle: my identity. So I feel like everywhere that I've
Rebecca Engle: experienced the DEI movement has been very focused
Rebecca Engle: on race. So I think until we. And again, we need those things, we
Rebecca Engle: need to move away from, you know, racism and all of
Rebecca Engle: that. I 100% agree, but I also think if we're going to have dei, we
Rebecca Engle: need to make sure that it's working for all of the people who
Rebecca Engle: are segregated equally. It's gotta be
Rebecca Engle: fully inclusive for all people. Disability is
Rebecca Engle: a major part of that. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah.
Rebecca Engle: So what do you think's gonna change? How would you evolve the system?
Rebecca Engle: I think you've already touched on the fact that making sure that neurodivergent
Rebecca Engle: people aren't disadvantaged in a neurotypical world by trying to
Rebecca Engle: convert neurodivergent people to be neurotypical. How else
Rebecca Engle: can organisations support. Yeah,
Rebecca Engle: autistic people? Well, first it starts with insurance or
Rebecca Engle: insurance companies accepting Cognitive Behavioural therapy rather
Rebecca Engle: than ABA therapy. That's number one. There are
Rebecca Engle: practises out there already lying that their therapy
Rebecca Engle: given is ABA therapy, when it's actually CBT just to be covered by
Rebecca Engle: insurance companies to support families that have kids with autism.
Rebecca Engle: But many of our insurance companies in the US are still only
Rebecca Engle: paying for systems that feed into that ABA
Rebecca Engle: PBIS award system. And then I think there just needs
Rebecca Engle: to be more education from an early age, like due to other
Rebecca Engle: laws. Right. I can't tell anyone that this kid in my class has
Rebecca Engle: a disability which is 100% valid. But even if that kid
Rebecca Engle: start saying, you know, I have dyslexia and this is what this means, a
Rebecca Engle: lot of the time the teacher will say, stop. You're not allowed to talk about
Rebecca Engle: that, even though it's them talking about themselves and my classroom,
Rebecca Engle: you know, I've always been very open about, you know,
Rebecca Engle: everyone in here has something unique and they can open up about it or choose
Rebecca Engle: not to. But I have neurodiversity symbols all over my room. So I think just
Rebecca Engle: normalising it, it's not going away, it's not harming children by
Rebecca Engle: being aware of those things. You know, I had a situation
Rebecca Engle: a few weeks ago. One of my kidd with autism got water thrown at him
Rebecca Engle: and he was freaking out and it wasn't on purpose, but simulation
Rebecca Engle: of the water, you know, the water being thrown at him though wasn't on purpose.
Rebecca Engle: Like the person didn't spill it on him intentionally and but
Rebecca Engle: another girl like came up to his face and screamed, it's just water, get over
Rebecca Engle: yourself. And this kid has communication deficiency so he
Rebecca Engle: couldn't say, you know, it bothered me because it's this and this. And one of
Rebecca Engle: my kiddos came up to this girl and explained his autism and
Rebecca Engle: was like, this is overstimulating him and was able to talk about it. And these
Rebecca Engle: were nine year olds. Like these kids have the ability to do that.
Rebecca Engle: You just have to let them. And I feel like we kind of, we, we
Rebecca Engle: lack that in the United States, right? We tell these kids, well, you have
Rebecca Engle: support, you don't need to talk about it, you can keep it a secret. And
Rebecca Engle: that's just is even when as a co teacher, as a special ed
Rebecca Engle: teacher, I'm not allowed to walk in the class and be like, I'm here to
Rebecca Engle: support the kids with disabilities, I'm not even allowed to say that I have
Rebecca Engle: to pretend that I'm there to support all 25 kids. That sounds crazy.
Rebecca Engle: I get the fact, as you said, you don't want to out somebody
Rebecca Engle: or separate somebody as being different, discriminate
Rebecca Engle: against somebody, treat them less fairly. But the whole point of equity
Rebecca Engle: is to give people the tools they need. And not talking about someone's autism
Rebecca Engle: or neurodiversity means that you're not able to give them the support they need or
Rebecca Engle: even normalise conversations and have a conversation around. Actually
Rebecca Engle: our friend here, this is who she is, this is how she
Rebecca Engle: responds best. If you can't talk about that, then how can you bring that person
Rebecca Engle: into this conversation? It sounds absolutely ludicrous. And I mean, I would get
Rebecca Engle: it, like if the kid doesn't want to bring it up, that's fine. But I
Rebecca Engle: feel like even having people like myself go to schools and be like,
Rebecca Engle: hey, just so you know, you could run into these types of people in your
Rebecca Engle: classrooms on, you know, first day of school, let's have an
Rebecca Engle: auditorium discussion about what type of kids you could run into. Kids in Wheelchairs,
Rebecca Engle: kids in this. And just having that discussion each year could open so
Rebecca Engle: much. But we're, we're so like, don't talk about it. It's hidden. It's a
Rebecca Engle: secret. Yeah. I mean, when you get to the wider world, into the workplace,
Rebecca Engle: if you have that same sort of attitude, then no one's ever going to give
Rebecca Engle: you the support you need. You're used to, just as you, she pointed out earlier,
Rebecca Engle: just masking and covering and hiding your identity and what.
Rebecca Engle: All the things that you need for people to help and recognise you with, with
Rebecca Engle: you hide them. And it's like. Yeah, it's ludicrous. Yeah. Wow.
Rebecca Engle: Is that, Is that all over the states or is it, Is it just a,
Rebecca Engle: A tech. It's not just a Texas thing then? No, it's not just a
Rebecca Engle: Texas thing. It's all the states, wasn't it? Yeah,
Rebecca Engle: for sure. Yeah. Don't out somebody. And I'm. I mean, okay, I'm,
Rebecca Engle: I'm the wrong, I'm the wrong side of 20. So I don't understand what, how,
Rebecca Engle: what young people are doing these days, but I can't imagine the UK where we're
Rebecca Engle: avoiding talking about it. I think we're more likely to have
Rebecca Engle: open discussions about neurodiversity because it affects so many
Rebecca Engle: people these days. It's on the news all the time and people are talking about
Rebecca Engle: it and lots of autistic advocates out there talking about this all the
Rebecca Engle: time in workplaces. So I can't imagine we would
Rebecca Engle: cover it up or hide it. So you mentioned
Rebecca Engle: that CBT is an improvement by a long shot.
Rebecca Engle: What's the key elements of CBT then? That people. So just for
Rebecca Engle: anyone's listening, cbt, cognitive behaviour therapy. What's the difference between that
Rebecca Engle: and how you educate people through that than ABA
Rebecca Engle: them? Yeah. Cognitive Behavioural therapy
Rebecca Engle: teaches what behaviours are genuinely wrongful, Right. Like
Rebecca Engle: slapping someone or harming someone. And it removes that PBIS
Rebecca Engle: system of. Here's a cookie, Here's a cookie, Here's a cookie. Every time they do
Rebecca Engle: something and it's actually done by actual therapists.
Rebecca Engle: So aba, in order to be properly become
Rebecca Engle: an ABA therapist, you do not need any form of therapy degree,
Rebecca Engle: you do not need any form of college education.
Rebecca Engle: You can be a high school graduate with a GED and become an ABA
Rebecca Engle: therapist. Like you can leave the 12th grade when you're 18 and become
Rebecca Engle: an ABA therapist and make $30 an hour, which is like high here. Right.
Rebecca Engle: Like that's better. That's almost as much as I Make with. As a teacher with
Rebecca Engle: a degree. And all you have to do is watch a few videos and take
Rebecca Engle: test. And you're an ABA therapist, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.
Rebecca Engle: Actual trained therapists who have completed multiple years of college, who
Rebecca Engle: have a master's degree and a doctoral degree and have
Rebecca Engle: genuinely studied the brain.
Rebecca Engle: And so you're getting a whole entire other
Rebecca Engle: educational level. But not only that,
Rebecca Engle: your child's learning how to embrace these things, these things
Rebecca Engle: rather than hide them. And they're,
Rebecca Engle: they're. I mean, they're taking the behaviour cognitively.
Rebecca Engle: They're not just correcting, correcting, correcting and teaching to
Rebecca Engle: mask. They're. They're, you know, they're not training you like an animal,
Rebecca Engle: they're. They're working through it with you.
Rebecca Engle: What can we do instead of slapping someone when we need this? Let's talk
Rebecca Engle: about it. Rather than, oh, you didn't slap someone. Here's a cookie. Oh, you
Rebecca Engle: didn't do this. Let's. Here's a cookie. So it's giving people
Rebecca Engle: strategies. So you're rewarding
Rebecca Engle: through correcting, integration rather than rewarding, as you
Rebecca Engle: say, a cookie. It's actually learning that, well done, you did great there.
Rebecca Engle: So you're being honest with that person and giving them that positive
Rebecca Engle: reinforcement rather than. Was it a
Rebecca Engle: dopamine rush in their head with a cookie or whatever it is? Yes. So I.
Rebecca Engle: Looking through the show notes and, you know, you put that.
Rebecca Engle: You've written a book and. Yeah. What's the book
Rebecca Engle: about? Yeah, I am the author of Step Into My Shoes.
Rebecca Engle: It's a children's book about kids with disabilities and it's about
Rebecca Engle: kind of how I navigated my elementary school, my
Rebecca Engle: primary school years, so those younger years as a student
Rebecca Engle: with a disability. And is it aimed at other students or is it
Rebecca Engle: aimed at parents as well? It's aimed, it's aimed at students. I mean, parents can
Rebecca Engle: read it with their kid, but it's definitely a children's book. So is the character
Rebecca Engle: you in it, is it a young girl in there. Or is it a.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, the character's name is Rocky. My legal name is Rebecca. So
Rebecca Engle: I was like trying to think of something with an R and
Rebecca Engle: went with Rocky. And Rocky is based off of me and
Rebecca Engle: a few other AU kiddos I got to teach throughout my years as a
Rebecca Engle: student teacher. So what's Rocky's kind of superpower, then?
Rebecca Engle: What makes her special? Is she an AU kid? But what does. Is
Rebecca Engle: she dyslexic, dyspraxic? Does she stim?
Rebecca Engle: So she does stim she does have visual supports. There's
Rebecca Engle: parts of the story that stress her out. She loves library
Rebecca Engle: and loves books. She likes quiet, she doesn't like loud environments. I
Rebecca Engle: specifically avoided naming what disabilities Rocky has because
Rebecca Engle: I wanted my first book to include all people who feel different.
Rebecca Engle: So I don't include if she has dyslexia or she has dysgraphia or
Rebecca Engle: autism or any of that. I specifically called her
Rebecca Engle: neurodivergent and I did that with a reason. Because in America
Rebecca Engle: you can qualify for an individualised education plan, which is that
Rebecca Engle: IEP document simply if they determine that you have a
Rebecca Engle: educational learning disability, which is not a medical diagnosis. It's
Rebecca Engle: a school psychologist diagnosis, which is not medical. So
Rebecca Engle: even school educational diagnoses are different than
Rebecca Engle: medical diagnosis. So I can be diagnosed with autism
Rebecca Engle: educationally, but not medically. It's two different things. One is,
Rebecca Engle: okay, medically, autism encompasses
Rebecca Engle: a lot more than how you talk and your behaviour.
Rebecca Engle: Educationally, an autism diagnosis is communication and behaviour.
Rebecca Engle: That's it. That's all they look at. So I specifically avoided specifying because
Rebecca Engle: I wanted kids with just a learning disability of reading comprehension to be
Rebecca Engle: able relate to people. When you're working with your students,
Rebecca Engle: appreciate that they're probably a little bit young, but how do you help
Rebecca Engle: people through that transition into the workplace? Is it just working
Rebecca Engle: with them to become functional in a neurotypical world or are there specific traits
Rebecca Engle: and specific lessons you help them with in order to integrate with a wider
Rebecca Engle: society? I kind of do it all. I mean, I help with
Rebecca Engle: the academic aspects. I help them integrate into society. All my kids
Rebecca Engle: know that I'm autistic and adhd. I mean, they're well aware
Rebecca Engle: I've brought up my IEP as a little girl. I've shown them it.
Rebecca Engle: I did a video for my school district which encompassed me talking
Rebecca Engle: about my autism. So I've done. I've done it all. I've taught them
Rebecca Engle: how to advocate for themselves when people are
Rebecca Engle: going against them and all of it. Wow. Yeah,
Rebecca Engle: sounds good. I think there's a lot more awareness now than there
Rebecca Engle: has been. And we mentioned earlier that it's a different world. When you were growing
Rebecca Engle: up at that age, there's still a long
Rebecca Engle: way to go, isn't there? Businesses, society still
Rebecca Engle: not ready. People will still look at you funny. They won't
Rebecca Engle: immediately look to help you. They'll judge you
Rebecca Engle: poorly rather than welcome you. They'll see you as
Rebecca Engle: too different to cope with. Yes.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. How do we move society on then? Because that's. That's really the aim
Rebecca Engle: is to allow AU people to function in
Rebecca Engle: society as themselves without having to mask or cover,
Rebecca Engle: then convert them into being socially acceptable for neurotypical people.
Rebecca Engle: That's got to be the objective, isn't it? Education and Thai, I
Rebecca Engle: would say, are the two things that will take. I
Rebecca Engle: think it won't happen overnight. It will take years and years. And I mean, now
Rebecca Engle: we're just getting to a point where we're actually diagnosing everyone with autism that has
Rebecca Engle: autism rather than just saying, well, you know,
Rebecca Engle: it's not the most severe situation. They're not autistic. Is it a
Rebecca Engle: diagnosis important for people?
Rebecca Engle: I know many, I've got many friends who have been late, later life
Rebecca Engle: diagnosed as ADHD or on the
Rebecca Engle: asd, on the spectrum somewhere to them it means something. It matters that
Rebecca Engle: they finally got a label that they can go, look, I'm not,
Rebecca Engle: not. I'm not crazy. I've got something.
Rebecca Engle: But does it really help? Did it help you? Apart from
Rebecca Engle: getting access to education and other services, does it help many people
Rebecca Engle: being diagnosed? Yeah, I think so. And when I was.
Rebecca Engle: So I went through school and I was diagnosed with all of that, and I
Rebecca Engle: went through my bachelor's degree diagnosed with all of that. I got rediagnosed
Rebecca Engle: this past October with autism specifically. So they made all of
Rebecca Engle: that mushroom of diagnoses autism. And
Rebecca Engle: I'll tell you that immediately. I now qualified for work
Rebecca Engle: accommodations. I qualified for all these things that I had never
Rebecca Engle: qualified for before in my undergrad university. They told me I was
Rebecca Engle: too autistic to teach. They told me that my communication skills were bad and
Rebecca Engle: all these things. While I was seeking my bachelor's degree and because I only
Rebecca Engle: had like pervasive developmental disorder, like all these developmental
Rebecca Engle: diagnoses, but not the word autism attached to it, even though
Rebecca Engle: the DSM had been updated to include those as autism. I couldn't
Rebecca Engle: sue or protect myself. So it is important to have.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, I mean, in the same way that if someone has cancer,
Rebecca Engle: they want to know they've got cancer. If you, if you're autistic or have adhd,
Rebecca Engle: you want to know, at least you can advocate or people can advocate for you
Rebecca Engle: to make change to create space for you. Yeah, no, I get that. I get
Rebecca Engle: that. So what plans have you got for your next book?
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, I want to do well, My next book that's coming
Rebecca Engle: out is an adult book and it's through our lens, which is Perspectives
Rebecca Engle: on Disability, that will come out in October, and it's
Rebecca Engle: 12 other authors contributing Their story on their
Rebecca Engle: disability or their family's disability or their kid and just talking
Rebecca Engle: about it. Wow, that sounds great. Yes. Another one
Rebecca Engle: in your mind for past that. You got a third book coming out,
Rebecca Engle: Planning. Yeah, I want to do Step Into
Rebecca Engle: My Basket Basket and that book will be
Rebecca Engle: about grocery shopping as a autistic adult
Rebecca Engle: or child. Is that Rocky Grows Up? Is it, is that the, the idea?
Rebecca Engle: Yeah, pretty much. But thinking. I'm thinking about doing a middle school
Rebecca Engle: book too. So I'm like, we'll see. But Step Into My
Rebecca Engle: Basket is the idea for that grocery store
Rebecca Engle: because that's. Part of your, your side hustle, isn't it?
Rebecca Engle: Yes. Yeah. You, you make stuff, don't
Rebecca Engle: you? Yes, I knit. I knit beanies,
Rebecca Engle: scarves, blankets, ear warmers, headbands,
Rebecca Engle: stuffed animals, all of it. And then I also, I also
Rebecca Engle: write. So I've been in nine other books on top of the one I've
Rebecca Engle: released and seven of those were poetry related. So when you're, when
Rebecca Engle: you're knitting and crocheting, does that help your stimming or is that, is
Rebecca Engle: that kind of another a way of releasing it or do you, do you stim
Rebecca Engle: while you're knitting as well? It depends. When I'm
Rebecca Engle: knitting it does kind of mask my stim
Rebecca Engle: and then finally I kind of release it and
Rebecca Engle: I'll take a break and I'll like stim full on. But it does help me
Rebecca Engle: calm down. Do you feel the need to sort of wear headphones
Rebecca Engle: or have background music on or noise cancelling earbuds or anything like that?
Rebecca Engle: Or listen to music? Does that help? Music helps me
Rebecca Engle: sometimes. I definitely need music when I'm driving and then.
Rebecca Engle: Or someone talking constantly and
Rebecca Engle: then. I've never needed noise cancellers except for when
Rebecca Engle: testing, testing. It helps shut off from the world if you're
Rebecca Engle: getting overstimulated. You walk into a noisy room or something like that, it's.
Rebecca Engle: You can get overload. Can you? Yeah. Yep. Too far.
Rebecca Engle: One of the things I've realised over the last couple of years
Rebecca Engle: is there's more availability of quiet rooms and
Rebecca Engle: chill out spaces where people can go and be quiet, be noise free
Rebecca Engle: for a while. Is that a good way that companies can provide
Rebecca Engle: sort of support for people who are
Rebecca Engle: autistic? Yeah. And I know in the US some stores are
Rebecca Engle: starting to do a sensory friendly time. So from like 8am to
Rebecca Engle: 10am they're open where it's just silent. Like it's only like the lights are
Rebecca Engle: dim and the. You can grocery shop without as much noise.
Rebecca Engle: So THEY TURN OFF THE BACKGROUND MUSIC CLANKING AND CLUTTERING
Rebecca Engle: yeah. Yes. Just
Rebecca Engle: relax. That sounds good. Becca,
Rebecca Engle: it's been absolutely fascinating. I'm chatting to you and listening to your experiences
Rebecca Engle: of your growing up. Up and how you've,
Rebecca Engle: dare I say, found a way of navigating the neurotypical world
Rebecca Engle: while still proud to be you as well. Which is. Which is the important thing,
Rebecca Engle: isn't it? Not being assimilated like the
Rebecca Engle: Borg into the neurotypical world.
Rebecca Engle: Yeah. How could people get a hold of you? What's the best way for people
Rebecca Engle: want to get in touch? You can contact me on Instagram
Rebecca Engle: @stitchostanzas or Facebook @becca Engel or Facebook
Rebecca Engle: @rebycraft. I'll put those in the show notes as well. Well, yes,
Rebecca Engle: Becca, it's brilliant. And it's a book on Amazon. Is it? Can we get a
Rebecca Engle: bit on. There it is. Okay, I'll put. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll
Rebecca Engle: find that and I'll put a link in the. In the show notes as well.
Rebecca Engle: So awesome. Thank you so much. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you. Yeah,
Rebecca Engle: thank you. Bye. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear
Joanne Lockwood: and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community
Joanne Lockwood: driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.
Rebecca Engle: Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all
Joanne Lockwood: ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and
Joanne Lockwood: unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one
Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.