WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.670 --> 00:01:18.380 And today is episode 167 with the 19 00:01:18.380 --> 00:01:22.260 title Step Into My Shoes. And I have the absolute 20 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:26.180 honour and privilege to welcome Rebecca Engle. Rebecca 21 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:29.300 is a passionate special education teacher, an author, 22 00:01:29.940 --> 00:01:33.940 an advocate for neurodivergent students who is dedicated to creating 23 00:01:34.019 --> 00:01:37.460 inclusive learning environments and improving support systems 24 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:41.540 for autistic learners. When I asked Rebecca to 25 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:45.170 describe her super power, she said that it is her ability to 26 00:01:45.170 --> 00:01:48.850 transform her own personal experiences into actionable 27 00:01:48.850 --> 00:01:52.650 advocacy for inclusive education and student 28 00:01:52.650 --> 00:01:55.770 empowerment. Hello, Rebecca. Welcome to the show. 29 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:00.010 Hello. Thank you for having me. Good to have you. I think we tried to 30 00:02:00.010 --> 00:02:03.410 sort this out before Christmas, but for one thing or another, we had to postpone 31 00:02:03.410 --> 00:02:07.010 it until now. So yeah, it's great to have you on. Yes. You mentioned just 32 00:02:07.010 --> 00:02:09.770 now that you're based in Texas, is that right? Yes, 33 00:02:11.059 --> 00:02:14.459 in the U.S. so what's the weather like at the moment? It is like 50 34 00:02:14.459 --> 00:02:18.139 degrees outside, but going up. Okay. So 35 00:02:18.139 --> 00:02:22.099 that's chilly but not cold. Yes. Yeah, yeah, 36 00:02:22.339 --> 00:02:26.218 yeah. So, Rebecca, you have your journey, you've been on as an autistic 37 00:02:26.218 --> 00:02:30.179 educator. It's quite inspiring reading through the notes. So can you 38 00:02:30.179 --> 00:02:33.339 tell me a bit about your personal journey? What got you into doing what you're 39 00:02:33.339 --> 00:02:37.240 doing? Yeah, sure. As a little girl, 40 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:40.720 my mom realised there was something different about me. But I had two older brothers, 41 00:02:40.720 --> 00:02:44.560 so doctors were kind of like, don't compare her to 42 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:48.040 your brother, your sons, like, you know, she's fine, she'll be fine. 43 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:52.519 And my mom went for my brother's 5 year old checkup with me 44 00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:53.960 and I was newly 3. 45 00:02:56.440 --> 00:02:59.800 The my brother's doctor said something's wrong with her 46 00:03:00.920 --> 00:03:04.540 and my mom was like, finally someone said something. 47 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:08.500 And my brother's doctor was my doctor's. Well, my doctor was my brother's 48 00:03:08.500 --> 00:03:12.260 doctor's boss, so you can imagine that argument that happened 49 00:03:12.260 --> 00:03:16.100 there. And so when all of this started going on, I was 50 00:03:16.100 --> 00:03:19.740 later diagnosed with pervasive elemental disorder, sensory processing disorder, 51 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:23.260 auditory processing disorder, speech apraxia, you can name it. 52 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:27.020 Multiple diagnoses. Now in modern day 53 00:03:27.020 --> 00:03:30.900 dsm, all of those fall on the autism spectrum at the age of three 54 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:34.680 because of these diagnoses. I started in the early trial Childhood education 55 00:03:34.920 --> 00:03:38.720 programme which is for children that have disability, specifically to 56 00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:42.720 attend pre K in the us and so I attended an early 57 00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:46.280 childhood facility and learned how to 58 00:03:46.600 --> 00:03:50.600 function in school settings. I was in a setting like that for three 59 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:54.120 years in a self contained classroom with other autistic 60 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:58.120 disabled students and then went into the general education 61 00:03:58.200 --> 00:04:02.070 setting where I was, which is the setting without, with children without severe 62 00:04:02.070 --> 00:04:05.870 disabilities and was manipulated, mistreated by teachers, 63 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:10.030 bullied, led to terrible things all the way until I got 64 00:04:10.030 --> 00:04:13.630 to the end of college really. And 65 00:04:13.950 --> 00:04:17.550 because of that mistreatment I faced as a student with a disability, 66 00:04:17.790 --> 00:04:21.590 I had a heart to make sure that that didn't happen 67 00:04:21.590 --> 00:04:25.550 to kids like me that are children today. It's quite a harrowing 68 00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:28.990 story that you had to go through that as a younger person. Tell me when 69 00:04:29.150 --> 00:04:32.920 you were aware that you were different or were you just 70 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:36.720 you? I think I became aware that I was different around 71 00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:40.880 fourth, fifth grade. That's finally when my mom brought up my IEP 72 00:04:40.960 --> 00:04:44.680 and things and was like, yeah, that's why you leave the classroom for testing and 73 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:48.680 that's why you're in speech. And I knew that I was in speech therapy 74 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:52.480 and I knew that I had delays but I didn't really think anything of them 75 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.080 or that they weren't things that every other child 76 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.560 could have had meaning, like large masses of the population. So 77 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.520 I kind of just was just being me. And then 78 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:08.440 once fifth grade hit, there was where they started talking 79 00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:12.280 about, you know, how the transition to middle school would happen and which 80 00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:16.120 is, you know, 11, 12 years old. And they started pointing things 81 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.120 out to me about my differences and I was kind of like, that's when 82 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:24.120 I realised I was very different. And then as I went on through life, 83 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:27.920 I still had those sensory bothersomes and things like that, you 84 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.800 know, like I can't wear certain sweaters, certain clothes get to me. 85 00:05:32.700 --> 00:05:36.660 And when I would talk to friends about that and tell them how I 86 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:39.300 reacted, they would kind of laugh and be like, oh, you feel that way with 87 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:42.740 this? Like I would have no clue what that meant. And so as I kind 88 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:46.700 of started having those discussions, those. That's when I realised I was different 89 00:05:46.700 --> 00:05:50.700 than my peers. And then when I got to college, 90 00:05:50.700 --> 00:05:54.660 most definitely, there was a lot of conversations that I was like, well, this is 91 00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:58.100 happening because I'm different. You know, And I would get comments on 92 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:01.820 communication styles and things like that. And I was always very 93 00:06:01.820 --> 00:06:05.680 direct. I still am. And sometimes neurotypical people need 94 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.160 things sugarcoated, and I'm very bad at that. That's fine. 95 00:06:09.400 --> 00:06:13.360 So you kind of. Cause I always think, you know, when we're in our 96 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.600 own head, we just see the world as we've always seen it. We. Unless someone 97 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.960 tells us we're different or we could become aware of it, 98 00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:24.240 we're just us. And so it was around that sort of age, around 99 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.320 11 or 12, that you realised that you were. I was gonna say struggling. I 100 00:06:27.320 --> 00:06:30.480 don't. I don't think struggling is the right word, but just had a different way 101 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.480 of approaching things than other people. And. But 102 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.280 obviously your parents were bothered by it, but were you ever bothered by 103 00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:42.880 it? Yeah, occasionally, I think I 104 00:06:42.880 --> 00:06:46.280 wasn't bothered by myself. I was bothered by other people's 105 00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:50.280 interpretation of me. Okay, so it's what people were, how people were treating you, 106 00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:54.160 describing you, talk about you, but you were happy in yourself. 107 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.600 It was just other people that were their interaction with you. 108 00:06:57.930 --> 00:07:01.850 Mm. You were aware that you were different because of them? Yes. 109 00:07:01.850 --> 00:07:05.530 And is that. Is that your experience where you now work with autistic 110 00:07:05.690 --> 00:07:09.690 young children and people, how do they have a 111 00:07:09.690 --> 00:07:13.530 very similar sense of self where they. Not broken. They're just different. 112 00:07:13.689 --> 00:07:16.930 I think it depends on the kid. I have a lot of kids who do 113 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:19.970 just live their life and they're different. You know, a lot of my au. Kiddos, 114 00:07:19.970 --> 00:07:23.690 autistic kiddos, they're just kind of like, yeah, I'm different, whatever. And 115 00:07:23.690 --> 00:07:27.250 they. They move along. I think a lot of my students with dyslexia, 116 00:07:27.250 --> 00:07:30.970 dysgraphia, things like that, they always tell me, I wish it was that 117 00:07:30.970 --> 00:07:34.730 easy. I wish this was easy. I'm dumb, you know, so I feel like they 118 00:07:34.730 --> 00:07:38.130 have a negative 119 00:07:39.730 --> 00:07:43.330 image of themselves. But there's a really good book that I always 120 00:07:43.490 --> 00:07:47.250 have them listen to when they call themselves dumb. And I think I'm trying 121 00:07:47.250 --> 00:07:51.210 to shape that image in them that, you know, it's the other people and 122 00:07:51.210 --> 00:07:55.200 not themselves. But I think it really depends on the kid. Yeah. Because 123 00:07:55.200 --> 00:07:59.120 I've always believed, if you like, that as a 124 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.040 human species, we kind of evolved fifty hundred thousand 125 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.680 years ago and we didn't have to read or Write. Back then we just 126 00:08:06.840 --> 00:08:10.400 did stuff. But I think this whole challenge with being 127 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:13.960 dyslexic, dyspraxic is a modern thing 128 00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:17.640 because it never held people back 2, 300 years ago. 129 00:08:19.080 --> 00:08:22.890 Many of the population couldn't read or write 200 years 130 00:08:22.890 --> 00:08:26.130 ago unless you had wealth or affluence. Most people 131 00:08:26.690 --> 00:08:29.450 never learned to read or write. They had no books, they had no need to 132 00:08:29.450 --> 00:08:33.450 write. They were just living their life, getting on with earning 133 00:08:33.450 --> 00:08:37.290 a living, feeding themselves, keeping safe, wasn't it? So I often think that 134 00:08:37.290 --> 00:08:40.050 we're judging people against the human 135 00:08:40.930 --> 00:08:44.810 evolution that we weren't designed for necessarily. It's just something that we 136 00:08:44.810 --> 00:08:47.820 picked up. Yeah, that's a good point. 137 00:08:49.020 --> 00:08:52.540 So, yeah, I think it needs all types of people 138 00:08:53.100 --> 00:08:55.820 in society to make society fantastic. I think 139 00:08:57.020 --> 00:09:00.860 not being able to read and write or having a struggle with dyslexia, dyspraxia 140 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:04.980 doesn't necessarily make you, doesn't make 141 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:08.380 you wrong. I just think it means you've got other attributes that are fantastic. 142 00:09:10.380 --> 00:09:12.540 So what was the biggest challenge for you 143 00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:18.840 to overcome and learn? Because obviously you became aware 144 00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:22.680 that you had developmental differences to other people. 145 00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:27.240 What was the toughest thing that you found yourself to get 146 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:31.200 to get over? I think as a young child, it was my developmental delays. But 147 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.200 I think communication is what encompasses all of it. You know, 148 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.800 when I was 4, I was non verbal, didn't talk at all. At 5, I 149 00:09:38.800 --> 00:09:42.360 only said 22 words in the English language. And then I slowly 150 00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:46.560 developed that vocabulary and then I picked it up quick. But even to this 151 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:50.560 day, communication is probably my biggest flaw. And 152 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.240 some people are like, there's nothing wrong with how you communicate. And then other people 153 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.600 hate my form of communication. So I think it, I think 154 00:09:57.760 --> 00:10:01.680 communication is something. I still don't know what I'm doing incorrectly, 155 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.560 but I'm a terrible communicator. I've been told multiple times that I'm too 156 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:09.440 aggressive, I'm too direct. That's the Becca way of saying it. 157 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:14.070 Um, my. I mean, I've literally hopped on a call with friends and 158 00:10:14.070 --> 00:10:16.870 said, yeah, I said this. And one of my friends is like, that's so Becca 159 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:19.870 of you. And I'm like, still trying to figure out to this day what that 160 00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:23.710 means. And it's not just one person. So I think communication 161 00:10:23.870 --> 00:10:27.550 is probably my biggest barrier. Is there a difference between 162 00:10:28.110 --> 00:10:31.990 comprehension and communicating out 163 00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:35.990 backwards? So even when you were struggling and non 164 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:39.820 verbal, could you understand, you just weren't able to speak back? 165 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:43.700 Or was it a case of you didn't understand or weren't able 166 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:47.460 to speak. I think both. Honestly, I feel like 167 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:51.420 even now, I still struggle with comprehension. You know, one of the things I stress 168 00:10:51.420 --> 00:10:55.220 as a teacher is the sticky note strategy, because after about four or five words, 169 00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:58.860 I don't understand anything I'm reading unless I write something down. So. 170 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:02.860 And it's the same with interpreting communication from other people, 171 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:06.540 right? Like, when people are like this, this, this, this, this, this, this. I'm like, 172 00:11:06.540 --> 00:11:10.210 okay, start at square two. Like, I got square one started. Square two. 173 00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:13.650 So I think it. I think it goes both ways. You don't seem to struggle 174 00:11:13.650 --> 00:11:16.530 with me right at the moment. I don't have any problem. 175 00:11:18.050 --> 00:11:21.250 So Becca. Becca's style coming into it yet is that. Is that 176 00:11:23.250 --> 00:11:27.130 it's a fairly straightforward conversation at the moment, or is it you're 177 00:11:27.130 --> 00:11:30.050 in your comfort zone at the moment? I feel like I've gotten used to going 178 00:11:30.050 --> 00:11:33.130 on podcasts, and I've kind of gotten used on how to respond, and I feel 179 00:11:33.130 --> 00:11:35.730 like when I'm talking about my autism, the people who are 180 00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:40.630 watching are probably those who either want to educate themselves on 181 00:11:40.630 --> 00:11:44.350 autism or already have experience. So 182 00:11:44.670 --> 00:11:48.510 I kind of just don't feel a need to mask anything. 183 00:11:49.390 --> 00:11:53.350 Yeah, that's. That's a good point. Yeah, that's very good point. So what would 184 00:11:53.350 --> 00:11:57.350 you. What would you say is the most misunderstood thing, if you want 185 00:11:57.350 --> 00:12:01.150 to call it a thing about being an autistic person or even 186 00:12:01.150 --> 00:12:04.830 just yourself? Yeah, think. I think trying to figure out the 187 00:12:04.830 --> 00:12:08.590 neurotypical mind and ways I feel like I 188 00:12:09.280 --> 00:12:12.760 as a neurodivergent individual, you know, I've even my boyfriend's 189 00:12:12.760 --> 00:12:16.280 neurotypical, and I'll text him and I'll be like, hey, what does this mean? And 190 00:12:16.280 --> 00:12:20.000 why would a neurotypical say that? Or, wait, that's something 191 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.880 neurodivergent people do and not neurotypical people. And, like, he's literally 192 00:12:23.880 --> 00:12:26.800 had to explain to me, like, that that thing is not normal. That thing is 193 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:29.680 normal. Or so I think just like, figuring out 194 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:34.880 the mind of people who aren't neurodivergent is something that 195 00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:37.780 I struggle with. I don't know. I don't know how to put that. But, like, 196 00:12:37.780 --> 00:12:41.700 I've literally, like, seen a TikTok or an Instagram reel or something, and 197 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:45.020 it's like, as a neurodivergent, doing this, and I'll, like, send it to him, and 198 00:12:45.020 --> 00:12:48.780 I'll be like, wait, not everyone does that. You know, like. And 199 00:12:48.780 --> 00:12:52.700 I'm still figuring things out at 22. That's. That doesn't 200 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.420 sound Too dissimilar to maybe someone who's. Who's speaks 201 00:12:56.420 --> 00:12:59.980 German language from Germany, that they have a very direct, very 202 00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:03.740 intolerance of lots too many words. You know, they want to be really direct at 203 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:07.260 you. Whereas Japanese people want to use lots of words and lots of 204 00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:11.020 descriptions. So as a native English speaker, I 205 00:13:11.020 --> 00:13:14.580 guess I come across people with different first languages. The way they 206 00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:18.500 communicate with me is different than a native English person. So what you're 207 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:22.380 saying there is you're effectively translating between one set of language 208 00:13:22.380 --> 00:13:26.220 rules and another set of language rules, where you don't always have all of the 209 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:30.110 guides to do that. Yep, yep, yeah. 210 00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:34.150 So the students you work with at the moment, so you work with them for 211 00:13:34.150 --> 00:13:37.910 what age? From year 5 or 5th 212 00:13:37.910 --> 00:13:41.790 grade all the way up. Or is it mainly older children? So I work with 213 00:13:41.790 --> 00:13:44.190 third, fourth and fifth grade, which is ages 214 00:13:45.629 --> 00:13:49.230 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, depending. 215 00:13:49.390 --> 00:13:53.230 And I suppose by that age they've been diagnosed, 216 00:13:54.190 --> 00:13:57.630 they've got support available to them, which is why they're coming to you 217 00:13:58.950 --> 00:14:02.630 in some cases. No. Sometimes I feel like by third grade 218 00:14:03.750 --> 00:14:07.550 they're figuring it out that eight, nine years old, a lot of them, some have 219 00:14:07.550 --> 00:14:11.510 already been diagnosed, 10 and 11. It depends on 220 00:14:11.510 --> 00:14:14.390 how consistent their education has been. 221 00:14:15.430 --> 00:14:18.150 I work in a area with a high poverty rate 222 00:14:19.510 --> 00:14:23.350 and so sometimes in a high refugee rate 223 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:27.350 as well. So a lot of the time we get kids from 224 00:14:27.430 --> 00:14:31.150 other countries who have lived here since third grade. So 225 00:14:31.150 --> 00:14:35.030 obviously in a third world country, they didn't have access 226 00:14:35.030 --> 00:14:39.030 to those resources, so they got diagnosed much later. So I think it just depends. 227 00:14:39.030 --> 00:14:42.630 You mentioned just now that neurodivergent people, people with autism, 228 00:14:45.430 --> 00:14:48.910 have maybe sometimes trouble deciphering a 229 00:14:48.910 --> 00:14:52.910 neurotypical conversation. Do you find the same when 230 00:14:52.910 --> 00:14:56.790 you're talking to other autistic young people, autistic people, where 231 00:14:57.110 --> 00:15:00.790 you start to translate what they're saying because their 232 00:15:00.790 --> 00:15:04.790 neurodiversity is different to yours or the way they communicate slightly different, or do 233 00:15:04.790 --> 00:15:08.750 you find it much easier to relate to people, autistic people? I find 234 00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:12.670 it much easier to relate to people on the spectrum. I feel like when I'm 235 00:15:12.670 --> 00:15:16.470 relating to people with autism, I feel like I get them. 236 00:15:16.550 --> 00:15:20.390 There have definitely been communication barriers with other neurodivergent 237 00:15:20.390 --> 00:15:24.170 folks where I'm like, hold on, explain that again. But I feel like I don't 238 00:15:24.170 --> 00:15:28.170 feel any need to mask around people who are also neurodivergent, so. And 239 00:15:28.170 --> 00:15:31.570 I feel like they feel the same way. So it's kind of more open and 240 00:15:32.850 --> 00:15:36.450 I feel like I comprehend them Better. Okay, so you're, you're both 241 00:15:37.090 --> 00:15:41.010 aware of your communication style, both 242 00:15:41.650 --> 00:15:45.450 acceptance of other communication styles and as you say, 243 00:15:45.450 --> 00:15:49.430 it's a safer space. You haven't got a mask or cover. You can just 244 00:15:49.430 --> 00:15:52.430 be yourself and they'll be themselves and you can just sort of laugh about it 245 00:15:52.430 --> 00:15:55.310 and go, what do you mean by that? What do you mean? You haven't got 246 00:15:55.310 --> 00:15:58.070 to pretend that you do understand and go, didn't get that. 247 00:15:59.190 --> 00:16:02.950 Yeah, yeah. So what, what 248 00:16:02.950 --> 00:16:06.710 techniques did you find to help you overcome 249 00:16:06.710 --> 00:16:10.670 your developmental differences? So was it one to 250 00:16:10.670 --> 00:16:14.310 one coaching? Is it reading exercises? Is it 251 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:18.220 a different way of learning to read phonetics or learning 252 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:20.820 words? How did you approach 253 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:25.860 developing those new skills? Yeah, my mother 254 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:30.020 put like papers all around the house that had everything labelled 255 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:33.940 with the word. So there was that. She was very, very supportive and read 256 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:37.940 me all the time. So there's that too. And then I feel 257 00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:41.420 like as I got older, just like facing the 258 00:16:41.420 --> 00:16:45.060 realities of being different helped too. And like 259 00:16:45.140 --> 00:16:49.100 asking my neurotypical friends how to respond or how to do things in 260 00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:52.940 these situations was something that I picked up on. And sometimes 261 00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:56.940 just being called out like that's not how you engage with that this 262 00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.740 way or you know that this is how you have to respond in this instance 263 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:04.980 in a positive way helped. But I think, 264 00:17:06.190 --> 00:17:10.150 I think a lot of it was just a lot of one on one with 265 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:13.910 my mom. My mom journaled literally every movement I made with my body at one 266 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:17.830 point. Like if I did this with my finger, like moved it 267 00:17:17.830 --> 00:17:21.709 upward, she would write it down, like literally everything I did with my body. And 268 00:17:21.709 --> 00:17:25.230 then she would find a way to respond to it, including my stimming. And I 269 00:17:25.230 --> 00:17:28.910 think that that helped as well. How did your stimming manifest? 270 00:17:28.990 --> 00:17:32.820 Is it literally just rocking or finger movements or 271 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:36.660 was it having comfort toys? So as a kid it was 272 00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:40.340 flapping. I flapped like a bird. So I would literally start like waving my 273 00:17:40.340 --> 00:17:42.740 arms. I did a lot of back and forward rocking, 274 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:48.660 a lot of circles. I think as a, in the textural 275 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:52.580 stims were nail biting, biting my fingers, biting, biting 276 00:17:52.580 --> 00:17:56.260 things. And then now I do a lot of finger movements. 277 00:17:56.340 --> 00:18:00.340 I still sadly bite my nails, but a lot less frequently. But my typical 278 00:18:00.340 --> 00:18:04.280 stim for those watching via video, I kind of like tap my fingers 279 00:18:04.280 --> 00:18:07.840 like I'm playing an instrument. I don't know how to describe it or I rub 280 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:11.200 my hands together to create like a friction sense. 281 00:18:12.080 --> 00:18:15.920 But it's funny because I'll have alone time in my classroom where I'm on a 282 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.920 conference period or on lunch or whatever and I finally get to like de 283 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.640 stress. And I'll stim and then a student will walk in 284 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.080 and I'll be like, oh. And I'll like mask my whole body and go straight 285 00:18:27.080 --> 00:18:30.700 into like a real weird pause. So it's definitely 286 00:18:30.780 --> 00:18:34.780 my hand flapping and things definitely still come out. It's just when no one 287 00:18:34.780 --> 00:18:38.380 else is around. So how would you describe 288 00:18:39.100 --> 00:18:43.020 stimming manifests itself? Is it times when you're stressed? Is it times when you're 289 00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:46.860 lonely? Is it times when. I don't know, is there a 290 00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:50.300 particular trigger for stimming or is it just all of a sudden 291 00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:54.060 it comes back. I stim more when I'm lonely 292 00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:58.140 and then lonely and stressed really adds to it. But 293 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:02.540 ultimately it's stress and anxiety that cause it. 294 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:06.780 So something sort of stimulating your brain and it's a way of releasing that 295 00:19:06.780 --> 00:19:10.660 sort of kind of tension as a. Yep. So I. 296 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:14.100 I pick my nails a lot these days. It really winds my wife up because 297 00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:17.380 she says, stop playing with me now. Stop playing with her. And I just find 298 00:19:17.380 --> 00:19:21.140 myself flicking my fingernails and playing with them and doing this with 299 00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:24.870 them all the time. And it winds her up completely. And I just get. 300 00:19:25.260 --> 00:19:27.740 I can't stop it. It just does it, you know, keep shouting at me, really 301 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:31.660 like. But I'm going to keep doing it because it. When I'm 302 00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:34.940 driving, sometimes I'm doing. I'm driving on one. One hand is kind of. 303 00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:39.420 Yeah. Playing with the nails. But yeah, it's. I can kind of relate 304 00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:43.300 to what you're saying. And yeah, having, having a. Having a toy or something 305 00:19:43.300 --> 00:19:47.140 in my hands or something like that just distracts me from playing with it. I 306 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:50.980 can just squeeze this instead. So, yeah, I can relate to it. I 307 00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:54.920 wouldn't say I would. It's more fidgety, I suppose. Stimming. Yeah. Is 308 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.680 there something that my brain needs to do as well? I 309 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.440 said when I was school I used to doodle a lot. You know, just write, 310 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.320 draw lots of circles and little things and lots of straight lines used to cross 311 00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:08.880 each other. My drawing stim is flowers. I draw a bunch of 312 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.320 flowers or circles. I tended to draw H's 313 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:17.040 the line across it and then I'd make the one part the H, another H 314 00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:20.420 and then another H and I ended up with a whole page full of joined 315 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:24.300 together Hs. Okay, let's 316 00:20:24.300 --> 00:20:27.580 just do that all the time. Let's still do that now. If I'm just sort 317 00:20:27.580 --> 00:20:30.460 of. If I'm in a meeting, I'm bored. I'll just sort of. That's. That's my 318 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:34.420 doodle is H's. Interconnected H's. Yeah. And 319 00:20:35.380 --> 00:20:38.340 so did you find that stimming even now? 320 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:43.220 Do you get embarrassed by it or you just kind of go, whatever 321 00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:47.140 it is? I definitely get embarrassed by it. There was 322 00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:51.060 a thing on Instagram and it was like, it literally asked, like, 323 00:20:51.060 --> 00:20:55.060 ask your neurotypical boyfriend or girlfriend if 324 00:20:55.060 --> 00:20:58.780 they've ever seen you stim. And I sent it to him 325 00:20:58.780 --> 00:21:01.500 and I sent it to my boyfriend and I was like, hey, have you ever 326 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.860 seen me stim? And he was like, all the time. And I was like, like, 327 00:21:03.860 --> 00:21:06.980 I didn't even realise I did it in front of him until he pointed it 328 00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:10.900 out and I was like, like, oops. And so 329 00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:14.620 just. It's funny, like, I feel like I. I feel like I'm now more self 330 00:21:14.620 --> 00:21:17.860 conscious about it and he doesn't care. Clearly he didn't point it out until. 331 00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:21.200 And that was two and a half years into our relationship. But 332 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.600 I do definitely get embarrassed by it, especially when someone walks in on 333 00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:30.440 me and like, deep moment of stem. Even when I was. I had roommates in 334 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.680 college and stuff. Yeah, I suppose the flapping one is quite, 335 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.160 quite visual, isn't it? It's. Yeah. Hard to sort of. If people don't know that 336 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.000 about you, it must be a bit of a shock. The first time they, they 337 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.890 see you doing it, you go, what are you doing? Yes, it's okay. It's a 338 00:21:44.890 --> 00:21:48.570 Becca thing. It's a Becca thing. 339 00:21:49.450 --> 00:21:53.290 Yeah. I suppose that must help. If you've got friends around you, boyfriend and other 340 00:21:53.770 --> 00:21:57.770 good friends who know you, as you say, you can be yourself around 341 00:21:57.770 --> 00:22:01.770 them and they can let you know what you're doing. Just for the simple. 342 00:22:01.770 --> 00:22:05.050 Oh, that's a Becca thing. That's a Becca does that. Yeah, 343 00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.290 that's what I do. Whatever. Yep. 344 00:22:10.820 --> 00:22:14.620 Going back to your teaching role is without putting an age on 345 00:22:14.620 --> 00:22:18.580 you. You probably went through this a fair while ago. You said you 346 00:22:18.580 --> 00:22:19.700 were in your 20s. I think you said, 347 00:22:22.340 --> 00:22:26.340 how has the education system. How has the world moved on and 348 00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:30.380 become more supportive in the last 15, 20 years? It must be completely 349 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:33.220 different. There's more awareness of neurodiversity, 350 00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:38.240 autism or the asd, autistic spectrum disorder than 351 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.080 there ever was now. Is it better now than it was? 352 00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:45.680 Honestly, I think that's a hard question to answer. I feel like, yes, like, if 353 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.240 I wanted to say it in broad, but I don't think it's good enough. I 354 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.160 think that we are in the middle of a Time as a society. And 355 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.640 I don't know if this is global, but definitely in the US where 356 00:22:55.800 --> 00:22:59.240 we are figuring out how to motivate 357 00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:02.840 autistic students, how to motivate students in general, how to 358 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.080 communicate with those students, how to make them a part of 359 00:23:07.860 --> 00:23:11.820 their general Ed peers. However, I don't think inclusion is where it 360 00:23:11.820 --> 00:23:14.580 needs to be in the US per se. 361 00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:19.340 We always say every kid is a gen Ed kid first. And it drives me 362 00:23:19.340 --> 00:23:22.820 crazy because it almost is saying 363 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.580 this kid is neurodivergent when we allow 364 00:23:27.580 --> 00:23:31.540 them to be. What they mean 365 00:23:31.540 --> 00:23:34.940 by it in reality is that we're going to put them in a gen Ed 366 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:38.820 setting first because their disability isn't all of who they are. 367 00:23:39.540 --> 00:23:43.300 But internally, to me, as a disabled individual, I kind of take it as 368 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:46.660 like we're ignoring their disability and throwing them into a setting that's 369 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:50.500 overstimulating and overwhelming in order for them to have friends who are normal. 370 00:23:50.500 --> 00:23:54.500 And that's how I interpret it. You know, the general 371 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:58.420 ed setting is overstimulating. It's overwhelming. You have 30 other 372 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:02.100 kids around you. It's crazy. And 373 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:06.260 you know, we are trying to revise education across the states. 374 00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:10.380 You know, in the US education is really determined by the 375 00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:14.360 50 states states rather than the federal government. And so you get kids 376 00:24:14.360 --> 00:24:18.200 who move across each state who are now trying to address two completely 377 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.720 different roles. I know for me, right in Oklahoma, my 378 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.560 educational experience, which is the state above Texas, was completely 379 00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:28.400 different than in Texas because I moved here right in the middle of it all. 380 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.240 And I feel like that's still the case. You know, I've had kids come to 381 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:35.160 me with an IEP from out of state and I read it and I'm like, 382 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.920 well, we don't even have that type of setting or this doesn't even exist in 383 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.600 Texas or. Well, we have a lot more than they had in this state. You 384 00:24:42.600 --> 00:24:46.300 know, and so it's like you kind of have to revise their whole education 385 00:24:46.620 --> 00:24:50.620 setting and then they're actually taking on more changes than their gen Ed 386 00:24:50.620 --> 00:24:54.500 peers, whatever. Because gen Ed education is almost exactly the 387 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:58.340 same across all 50 states, except for what you're being taught 388 00:24:58.340 --> 00:25:01.580 at a certain age. And so 389 00:25:02.860 --> 00:25:06.860 for example, the system that we have to 390 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:11.060 reward autistic kids for managing behaviour is 391 00:25:11.060 --> 00:25:14.770 what we call positive behavioural intervention supports. And that 392 00:25:14.770 --> 00:25:18.410 system is pretty much do this. It's very aba. If you're familiar with 393 00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:22.330 ABA therapy. No. Okay, well, ABA therapy is 394 00:25:22.330 --> 00:25:25.570 a system of. Here's a cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a 395 00:25:25.570 --> 00:25:28.610 cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a cookie. You did what I 396 00:25:28.610 --> 00:25:31.970 asked you to. But a lot of the time it's teaching 397 00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:36.930 to mask emotional regulation techniques. 398 00:25:37.010 --> 00:25:40.850 So like, oh, you didn't stim because you, when you stim, you accidentally 399 00:25:40.850 --> 00:25:44.770 slap a kid, right? Like, oh, you're hand flapping and your hand waves off. 400 00:25:44.770 --> 00:25:48.350 Right? Here's a cookie. Cause you didn't stim. Here's a cookie because you didn't stim. 401 00:25:48.590 --> 00:25:52.510