WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.270 And today is episode 169 19 00:01:18.770 --> 00:01:22.610 with the title Building Bridges in A Biassed World. 20 00:01:23.330 --> 00:01:26.930 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sonia Perez. 21 00:01:27.650 --> 00:01:31.570 Sonia is an engineer and leader in the energy industry 22 00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:35.930 who has become a passionate DEI champion, advocating for 23 00:01:35.930 --> 00:01:39.730 inclusion, neurodiversity and psychological safety in the workplace. 24 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:43.990 When I asked Sonia to describe her superpower, she said that it is to 25 00:01:44.140 --> 00:01:48.060 turning lived experiences into inclusive leadership and 26 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:51.740 most importantly, action. Hello, Sonia, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:56.300 Hi, Joanne, thanks for having me. Absolutely brilliant. So you're 28 00:01:57.100 --> 00:02:00.420 the opposite end of the UK to me. So I'm in Portsmouth and you're up 29 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:04.220 in Aberdeen, is that right? So is it. I know us Brits, we like to 30 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:06.580 talk about the weather. So what's the weather like up there at the moment? Is 31 00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:09.020 it. So we're in, what, middle of March? 32 00:02:10.389 --> 00:02:14.349 Yeah, well, it's freezing cold. It's kind of snow. Have you had some 33 00:02:14.349 --> 00:02:18.069 snow recently? No, but the forecast says maybe. Again, 34 00:02:18.229 --> 00:02:21.749 we seemed like we were getting into spring and then it just went 35 00:02:22.629 --> 00:02:26.429 wrong again. Yeah, it's down to the zeros here. So, 36 00:02:26.429 --> 00:02:30.309 yeah, I think it's an icy blast over the whole country. So, yeah, is 37 00:02:30.309 --> 00:02:30.869 what it is. 38 00:02:33.989 --> 00:02:37.720 So you've. You're an engineer by profession and 39 00:02:37.720 --> 00:02:41.520 obviously a leader as well. We talked about that. So how have you kind of 40 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:45.200 lent into the DEI journey or the EDI journey, 41 00:02:45.760 --> 00:02:49.680 and what impact has your own lived experience and background? 42 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.600 You know, we talked in the green rooms live about intersectionality or the 43 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.520 depth of our personalities and our lived experience. How's that 44 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:01.280 impacted you at work and in your life? Well, I guess 45 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.280 I came into DEI incidentally. It wasn't really 46 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:09.150 thought of or on purpose, but. But it was more my Lift 47 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:12.990 journeys. I became a mom 48 00:03:13.070 --> 00:03:17.070 six years ago and well, I guess my experience as an engineer 49 00:03:17.070 --> 00:03:20.910 and as a leader before was different to after. Suddenly you 50 00:03:20.910 --> 00:03:24.030 have to, well, I guess balance your 51 00:03:24.670 --> 00:03:28.670 work life with your family and your personal life. Well, 52 00:03:28.670 --> 00:03:32.430 there isn't much of personal life, to be honest, if you have to compensate 53 00:03:32.430 --> 00:03:36.270 work with children. And at that point we started 54 00:03:36.350 --> 00:03:40.210 suspecting that my daughter neurodivergent and. And then 55 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:43.730 I hear, well, this is genetic. It's like, oh, okay, well, I wonder if it's 56 00:03:43.730 --> 00:03:47.570 me too. So we start investigating. It's like, well, yeah, that's definitely me 57 00:03:47.570 --> 00:03:51.090 as well. And how. I guess I was going through a really difficult time as 58 00:03:51.090 --> 00:03:54.490 well personally. And how that kind of 59 00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:58.490 neurodiversity, my new ish identity as a mother, 60 00:03:59.050 --> 00:04:03.010 as a single mother actually, and, and the mental health and 61 00:04:03.010 --> 00:04:06.570 so on. Well, it basically just took me into a really steep 62 00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:10.940 learning curve about dei, but one that I actually 63 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:14.700 am really proud of. Wow. So you're. 64 00:04:14.860 --> 00:04:18.060 What's been the biggest challenge you faced, you know, as a, as a, 65 00:04:19.180 --> 00:04:23.100 a woman. Can I use the phrase a woman of colour? Because 66 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:26.860 you're, you're not white British, are you? By, by, by, 67 00:04:27.340 --> 00:04:31.180 by background, has that impacted your experience in the 68 00:04:31.180 --> 00:04:34.070 workplace as well? I wouldn't say so. 69 00:04:35.750 --> 00:04:39.750 I think even though my skin may be a little bit darker than the British. 70 00:04:40.150 --> 00:04:42.470 Well, not every British obviously, but just 71 00:04:44.150 --> 00:04:47.990 I would say it's still white in that, in that 72 00:04:48.309 --> 00:04:52.230 part. So I don't think I've had, if anything, people like 73 00:04:52.230 --> 00:04:56.070 the colour of my skin. Tanned, I suppose is. 74 00:04:56.150 --> 00:05:00.030 Yeah. What's your original background? Is it Portuguese? Spanish? That sort of 75 00:05:00.030 --> 00:05:03.970 general area? Spanish, yeah, I guess that's general area. The one 76 00:05:03.970 --> 00:05:07.890 thing that I find about my nationality is the jokes about, you 77 00:05:07.890 --> 00:05:11.810 know, how we are lazy and how we sleep siestas 78 00:05:11.810 --> 00:05:15.770 all the time and people who know me for a very long time will 79 00:05:16.170 --> 00:05:19.850 confuse my name by someone else's who's Spanish or. 80 00:05:20.730 --> 00:05:23.530 Yeah, like we're interchangeable. 81 00:05:24.810 --> 00:05:28.490 I suppose there is. If you've got a US background, you're more likely to be 82 00:05:29.650 --> 00:05:33.650 Hispanic, Mexican, I guess, as opposed to European Spanish. 83 00:05:33.650 --> 00:05:37.530 But like the Brits, the Spanish also had 84 00:05:37.530 --> 00:05:41.370 an empire and conquered half the world and exported our culture and 85 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:44.969 language and religion to other parts. And the 86 00:05:44.969 --> 00:05:48.290 Portuguese did it as well, and the Dutch. We're all guilty of 87 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:52.970 spreading our culture to other parts. Unwanted often. No, 88 00:05:52.970 --> 00:05:56.530 but I haven't really faced the big, I guess, 89 00:05:56.530 --> 00:06:00.120 challenges due to my national. I think I'm okay. I'm an 90 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.040 immigrant and you know, you will Always find people who would ask you to go 91 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.000 back home. But frankly, it's not really been an experience 92 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.800 that's shaped my life. It's maybe happened once or twice, but I know other people 93 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:15.280 get it a lot worse. So you've been in 94 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.320 engineering, STEM sector, for most of your career. It has 95 00:06:19.320 --> 00:06:22.840 a reputation for being very male 96 00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:26.800 dominated, for want of a better expression. How have you found that challenge to 97 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.640 navigate as a, as a, as a, as a young woman to start with and 98 00:06:30.640 --> 00:06:34.520 then developing your career and becoming more experienced? 99 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:39.200 Well, frankly, I. Yes. So I've always been, well, 100 00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:43.000 either the only woman in the room or one of the very few back from 101 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:46.920 university. I think at the time I really wasn't aware 102 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.920 of any difference in treatment. But when I look back now I, 103 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.760 I see it, I see it now. I think, well, I felt like I 104 00:06:54.760 --> 00:06:57.960 couldn't really be myself, how to fit in with all the other men. I had 105 00:06:57.960 --> 00:07:01.840 to behave like them. And that didn't really. It felt awkward because 106 00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:05.560 it's like you're acting. There's always this kind of, well, sexist 107 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:09.560 jokes and you kind of have to laugh with them and it's not really funny, 108 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.520 but I don't know, sometimes you can become an object. I think as I've 109 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.280 like once finished university and I started work, 110 00:07:18.710 --> 00:07:22.630 I find everyone quite supportive of me. I've been offshore 111 00:07:23.990 --> 00:07:27.190 in platforms, I've been 112 00:07:28.070 --> 00:07:31.830 as well in the oil and gas industry, but in onshore surveys, 113 00:07:31.910 --> 00:07:35.510 I think I kind of fall into this. 114 00:07:36.550 --> 00:07:39.630 I know I'm not the only one who does it because I've seen other colleagues 115 00:07:39.630 --> 00:07:43.270 do the same. I play dumb and that works quite well because I think people 116 00:07:43.270 --> 00:07:47.070 expect me to be dumb. So rather than the 117 00:07:47.070 --> 00:07:50.910 arrogance, like if you are very like assertive or you, you're sure 118 00:07:50.910 --> 00:07:54.670 of yourself, you're confident, then they think you are being 119 00:07:54.670 --> 00:07:58.590 arrogant. And if you make a mistake, then, well, 120 00:07:58.670 --> 00:08:02.350 that's kind of, it kind of explodes in your face. 121 00:08:02.830 --> 00:08:06.750 So playing dumb kind of works for, for a 122 00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:10.110 lot of people. So what you're effectively saying is 123 00:08:10.270 --> 00:08:14.000 you're, you're appeasing people to 124 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:18.680 ensure that you are successful by not creating waves. And you 125 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.640 know that if you, as you say, become assertive, become 126 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:27.280 more dominant, then you won't be accepted as much, so you have to 127 00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:30.800 hide who you are really. Just an intelligent, capable 128 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.560 engineer has to kind of limit their own potential by 129 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:37.680 dumbing it down. Is that, is that, is that what you're saying you've learned to 130 00:08:37.680 --> 00:08:40.800 do? Yeah, I suppose. Like when 131 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.560 maybe I'm asking a question I mean, I know the answer to it, but, you 132 00:08:45.560 --> 00:08:49.560 know, you don't. I think people feel a bit. A bit more like, 133 00:08:49.560 --> 00:08:53.200 defensive when a woman challenges them. So you don't really 134 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:56.880 challenge them straight on. You ask questions and you kind of 135 00:08:57.040 --> 00:09:01.040 play dumb. Like, you know, is it really. I mean, I'm 136 00:09:01.040 --> 00:09:05.040 not too sure about this. You know, it's not like you just go 137 00:09:05.040 --> 00:09:08.890 and tell them. And I know there's a big difference between the way 138 00:09:09.050 --> 00:09:12.730 I did it as a leader and how other colleague 139 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:16.850 who are men dealt with it. But then they didn't have the 140 00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:20.650 pushback that I did. Right. So 141 00:09:20.650 --> 00:09:24.570 how do you, how do you succeed yourself in a 142 00:09:24.570 --> 00:09:27.850 world where you have to kind of minimise like that? How do you 143 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:32.570 take advantage of opportunities where people maybe see you as not 144 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:36.170 confident because that's the way you're portraying yourself? I don't have an answer to that. 145 00:09:36.170 --> 00:09:39.420 I would love to know the answer. Um, I think, 146 00:09:40.060 --> 00:09:43.660 well, and throughout my life, I would say I've achieved quite a lot. 147 00:09:44.140 --> 00:09:47.180 How did I do it? Well, I think, well, looking back, 148 00:09:47.900 --> 00:09:51.900 it's more about the people who, you know, is the networking. It's. 149 00:09:52.700 --> 00:09:56.700 There is people with whom you can be yourself and they will respect you 150 00:09:56.700 --> 00:10:00.660 and they value you for who you are because they can see everything about 151 00:10:00.660 --> 00:10:04.300 you. And then there is the other people who, well, 152 00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:08.480 feel a bit more threatened by me or other people or other women 153 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.320 showing who they really are. I would say 154 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.680 I had a lot of support, but, you know, my network, my 155 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:20.599 village, let's say. So it's always about doing the right thing, being 156 00:10:20.599 --> 00:10:24.280 kind to other people, being respectful, always trying to learn 157 00:10:24.280 --> 00:10:28.160 different perspectives. Because in that way people start kind of 158 00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:32.000 wanting to work with you. They start like learning from you. They see the value 159 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:35.850 in you. I think that's what got me where 160 00:10:36.250 --> 00:10:40.170 I was. But I don't know how it continues from there because it 161 00:10:40.170 --> 00:10:43.610 really depends on who you're working with. Yeah, Obviously 162 00:10:44.010 --> 00:10:47.770 your daughter is going to be entering the workplace at some 163 00:10:47.770 --> 00:10:51.290 point soon, or maybe not soon, but 164 00:10:51.610 --> 00:10:55.370 in years to come. What advice would you give her 165 00:10:55.850 --> 00:10:59.780 entering the workplace and building her career, 166 00:11:00.020 --> 00:11:03.620 knowing what you know about how you've had to integrate into the 167 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:05.460 workplace? It's quite deep. Thought 168 00:11:07.300 --> 00:11:11.300 I would. The first thing would be to build her village. That's going to 169 00:11:11.300 --> 00:11:15.220 be really key because there's always going to be people who will want 170 00:11:15.300 --> 00:11:19.180 to see her fail. And probably it's not going to be personal, but 171 00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:22.900 it's more going to be like, like a more systematic 172 00:11:22.900 --> 00:11:26.860 belief. So. But there will be people who want her 173 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:30.740 to succeed. So it's about finding that village, 174 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:34.580 that network that is going to support her, that's going 175 00:11:34.580 --> 00:11:38.340 to give her that kind of perspective that you may 176 00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:42.300 lose when people, when you don't feel like you 177 00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:46.300 can be yourself or you start like, what other people think or say start rubbing 178 00:11:46.300 --> 00:11:50.220 on you, like, I'm not good enough. There's always this village 179 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:54.020 who will tell you, even in the times where you don't believe in yourself, 180 00:11:54.260 --> 00:11:57.820 that you are really good just the way you are. So I would say that's 181 00:11:57.820 --> 00:12:01.380 the most important thing. And I think 182 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:05.780 take space, take your space. I mean, it's the. 183 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:10.180 The more you talk about things, the more open you are, 184 00:12:10.900 --> 00:12:14.900 the more you demand, you know, to be just like everyone 185 00:12:14.900 --> 00:12:18.780 else and having the same opportunities, the more 186 00:12:18.780 --> 00:12:22.740 likely is that you will get them. I think, you 187 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:26.580 know, if. If people just remain quiet and accept the 188 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:30.540 state of school, it's never going to change. And that's, you know, what the previous 189 00:12:30.540 --> 00:12:34.380 generations to us did. We're not starting from scratch, you and I, 190 00:12:35.260 --> 00:12:39.100 and, you know, our children won't start from scratch because we are 191 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:43.260 fighting that battle as well. Yeah, I mean, we mentioned psychological safety 192 00:12:43.260 --> 00:12:44.540 in the opening. 193 00:12:47.230 --> 00:12:50.510 It's not right that you have to kind of hide part of you. If you 194 00:12:50.510 --> 00:12:54.270 think about some of the four tenets of psychological safety, one is inclusion 195 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:58.070 safety. Being yourself, isn't it? And having to cover yourself means that 196 00:12:58.070 --> 00:13:01.550 you're fitting into other people's expectations, which is a huge 197 00:13:01.550 --> 00:13:05.350 mental cognitive load to have to think about that all the time, isn't it? 198 00:13:05.350 --> 00:13:09.110 It is, yeah. I think, to be 199 00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:12.350 honest, I didn't realise I was doing it until very recently. 200 00:13:14.350 --> 00:13:17.710 Just when I. I mean, neurodiver divergence, what is that? I mean, 201 00:13:18.110 --> 00:13:21.910 back when I was younger, it was only boys that were 202 00:13:21.910 --> 00:13:25.390 neurodivergent and just, you know, the ones that showed 203 00:13:26.270 --> 00:13:30.270 neurodivergence in a. In a very stereotypical way. So 204 00:13:30.430 --> 00:13:33.950 a lot there is a lost, lost generations of, 205 00:13:34.270 --> 00:13:38.150 well, people who didn't get diagnosed at time. At the time. So 206 00:13:38.150 --> 00:13:41.000 at the moment, I mean, I got diagnosed, 207 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.880 what was it, like a year ago. So I'm still learning who 208 00:13:45.880 --> 00:13:49.680 I am. And I remember when I got 209 00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:53.400 the diagnosis and I called my mom to tell her and 210 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.000 I wasn't sad, I wasn't angry, I was okay. But I 211 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.920 burst into tears and I was trying to explain my mom, I'm okay. I'm actually 212 00:14:01.920 --> 00:14:05.840 okay. I don't know what I'm crying. It's just like this overwhelm of suddenly 213 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.830 just looking Back and seeing, you know, all 214 00:14:09.830 --> 00:14:13.470 of this happened because of this kind of how my brain 215 00:14:13.470 --> 00:14:17.470 works and how I was trying to fit in with everyone else. 216 00:14:18.270 --> 00:14:22.230 So it was quite an overwhelming feeling realising 217 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:25.950 that I've been masking my whole life without even knowing. 218 00:14:26.030 --> 00:14:29.710 And now I, I'm not so good at masking 219 00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:33.350 anymore. I don't know why. But now that I know that, you know, this is 220 00:14:33.350 --> 00:14:37.040 who I am, it's a lot harder for me to try to pretend to be 221 00:14:37.040 --> 00:14:40.840 someone that I'm not. As far as age, experience. And, 222 00:14:40.920 --> 00:14:44.560 you know, you get to that point, as you say, you, you know, it's not 223 00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:48.480 you. You know, you just, it just. This is who you are and you're not 224 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.120 having to sort of COVID up things that you, 225 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.360 you previously would have done because you thought you were failing. But actually it's just 226 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:59.120 part of your identity. And yeah, I think the 227 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:02.720 older you get though, the less, the less tolerant you are of, 228 00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:06.800 of. Of people's perceptions of you. And you're more like to be yourself, I think, 229 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.280 become more confident in your ability. And the thing is, I do 230 00:15:11.280 --> 00:15:15.280 have a lot of people. Well, my family is. Well, we're really close, 231 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:19.280 even in the distance, but they are very supportive and they've 232 00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:22.960 been learning as well. Now, like the. Well, my stepdad started studying 233 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:27.040 psychology just to understand, you know, my daughter and me, like, how near the 234 00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:30.760 virgins and my mom's read all the books in the world. Now it's a shame 235 00:15:30.760 --> 00:15:34.320 because, you know, they didn't know before and neither did I. 236 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:38.320 And now is kind of trying to catch up with all of this. My 237 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.240 friends are very supportive and there is a lot of people at work that 238 00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:46.160 are very supportive of me as well. And so this is really nice to see 239 00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:50.000 that, you know, it's okay for me to be who I am. 240 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:55.200 You said in your notes you submitted for the show that 241 00:15:56.400 --> 00:16:00.150 your, if you like, awareness of your own neurodiversity stemmed from your 242 00:16:00.150 --> 00:16:03.990 daughter's neurodiversity and the diagnosis of her. And you saw traits in her 243 00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:08.350 that you'd recognise in yourself. So what were the key things maybe in your 244 00:16:08.350 --> 00:16:12.190 daughter that you spotted that resonated with you? It wasn't 245 00:16:12.190 --> 00:16:15.430 obvious to start with. She was three years old when this started 246 00:16:16.390 --> 00:16:20.270 and it was behavioural. And me, I've always been a really calm 247 00:16:20.270 --> 00:16:24.150 child. I never had like any issues. But she. 248 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:28.220 A few years down the line, we figured out it was sensory processing. She 249 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:32.100 had a big issue with that, especially like clothes 250 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:35.620 and stuff. I've never experienced that. But she Started. 251 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:39.900 Well, when we start looking at that behaviour as a 252 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:43.899 very young child, it sometimes leads into neurodivergence and 253 00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:47.460 how children understand the world and how they're processing information. 254 00:16:48.020 --> 00:16:51.580 So I wondered if, like, is it adhd? Is it 255 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:55.540 autism? And then apparently something came up that I had never heard about, 256 00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:58.550 which was giftedness. And I thought 257 00:16:59.030 --> 00:17:02.950 giftedness, okay, well, the kind of conversations that my daughter 258 00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:06.750 was having with me when she was three years old were 259 00:17:06.750 --> 00:17:10.510 not what you would expect from a child is like, that's the conversation I would 260 00:17:10.510 --> 00:17:13.830 expect to have with an adult talking about, like, well, really 261 00:17:13.830 --> 00:17:17.510 philosophical matters like, you know, death and pregnancy, 262 00:17:17.510 --> 00:17:21.310 miscarriages. I had just had one. And relationship breakdowns and 263 00:17:21.310 --> 00:17:24.339 I, it just caught me completely off guard. And 264 00:17:24.979 --> 00:17:28.419 so giftedness, ADHD and autism 265 00:17:28.899 --> 00:17:32.659 have very similar traits, actually. And I 266 00:17:32.659 --> 00:17:36.659 didn't, I knew nothing about that. So it's not recognised in 267 00:17:36.659 --> 00:17:40.619 the UK yet, but it's in, in the US and in Spain and maybe in 268 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:44.579 other countries as well. So I personally didn't think 269 00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:48.499 she got that from me. And it's this thing about ADHD and being 270 00:17:48.499 --> 00:17:52.230 a woman as well that you, you always think that you're 271 00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:55.310 not smart enough. For example, I was in, 272 00:17:55.870 --> 00:17:59.590 in class and I was always a really good student and 273 00:17:59.590 --> 00:18:03.310 I had really good grades, but I just couldn't pay attention 274 00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:07.390 when the teacher was kind of giving the lecture. And I 275 00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:11.070 thought that's because I'm not, you know, smart enough. 276 00:18:11.150 --> 00:18:15.150 And so, yeah, I. She's not diagnosed yet because she's very young. But I 277 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:19.150 got my diagnosis and I was really surprised to see that not only I 278 00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:22.970 had adhd, but I was gifted. And, well, I always thought 279 00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:26.490 I wasn't that smart. So what, you know, you talked about 280 00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:30.410 gifted and how has that manifested itself in your career? 281 00:18:30.890 --> 00:18:34.890 There aren't many women still in STEM subjects and 282 00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:38.410 I've always associated, rightly or wrongly, with 283 00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:41.930 neurodivergence. Being engineer y, technical 284 00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:45.890 type people, they communicate better with things than they do 285 00:18:45.890 --> 00:18:49.250 with people often. Do you think that has had an impact on you being able 286 00:18:49.250 --> 00:18:52.690 to focus on engineering topics? I don't know. I mean, for 287 00:18:53.170 --> 00:18:56.850 it's. It's a bit difficult knowing where, you know, the, the autism, 288 00:18:56.850 --> 00:19:00.050 ADHD and giftedness kind of ends to start 289 00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:04.690 where the other one begins. For the giftedness has been more about feeling 290 00:19:04.690 --> 00:19:08.530 easily bored. I mean, I need a challenge and my motivation 291 00:19:08.530 --> 00:19:12.530 cycles kind of peak when I, I get 292 00:19:12.530 --> 00:19:16.490 something new, something challenging, something I'm learning from, but kind 293 00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:19.090 of dissipates quite quickly and easily. 294 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:24.300 I say, like, the other thing was authority. If someone 295 00:19:24.460 --> 00:19:28.300 doesn't justify something, well, reasonably well to me, then 296 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:32.140 I, I find it difficult to, to, to follow it. 297 00:19:32.300 --> 00:19:35.739 I think from, from the ADHD point of view, I 298 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:39.980 am not very good with details and you would know that. You 299 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:43.180 particularly because I turned up to this meeting a month ago 300 00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:47.910 on the 14th, on the 14th of March, because I 301 00:19:47.910 --> 00:19:51.550 scanned through like, you know, reading 302 00:19:51.950 --> 00:19:55.750 and I seen the 14 and yeah, this is not the first time it 303 00:19:55.750 --> 00:19:59.030 happened. So I knew it was probably my fault that no one turned up to 304 00:19:59.030 --> 00:20:02.670 the call rather than someone else's. So, you know, the 305 00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:06.750 numbers aren't the best for me, the details, but 306 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:10.270 I'm really good with abstract thinking. I'm really good with 307 00:20:10.670 --> 00:20:14.110 empathy, for example, like talking to people, understanding 308 00:20:14.110 --> 00:20:17.850 what's important to each person and 309 00:20:17.850 --> 00:20:21.770 building that trust. From the engineering point of view, what I was really keen 310 00:20:21.770 --> 00:20:25.770 on is understanding why things happen, how things work. It's like 311 00:20:25.770 --> 00:20:29.650 that kind of puzzle. I've never been diagnosed. I'm not sure whether 312 00:20:29.650 --> 00:20:33.370 I was ticking off boxes, but I share a lot of 313 00:20:33.370 --> 00:20:37.290 your kind of thinking there. You know, every time I find something 314 00:20:37.290 --> 00:20:40.090 new, I want to rip it apart, put it back together, rip it apart, put 315 00:20:40.090 --> 00:20:43.380 it back together. And then once I've done that a few times I go, yeah, 316 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:47.260 bored with that now. What's next? Oh, another shiny thing, Another. So I've got a 317 00:20:47.260 --> 00:20:51.220 whole, whole catalogue of things I've had a good go at and I've become 318 00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:53.860 a very quick expert on and then push it to one side 319 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:58.500 because my background's in it and I found that 320 00:20:58.660 --> 00:21:02.340 extremely challenging for most of my life and really got involved with it and all 321 00:21:02.340 --> 00:21:05.180 of a sudden in my 40s, I got bored with it. I just thought, I 322 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:09.100 can't do. I've had enough of this, it's not exciting me anymore. 323 00:21:09.100 --> 00:21:12.440 I want to find a new shiny object. I share a lot of that with 324 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.400 you. It's important to keep stimulating the brain 325 00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:19.440 and I'm either, I'm either a hundred percent in or I'm a hundred percent out. 326 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.200 I don't, I don't do it in the middle. Oh yeah, yeah. 327 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:27.199 Middle grounds don't really exist in my head. No. Yeah. If 328 00:21:27.199 --> 00:21:29.520 I'm not interested, if I'm. If I'm not into it, I'm not into it. That's 329 00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:33.080 it. I'm not, you're not going to persuade me. But to me that, that's, that's 330 00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:36.920 quite powerful because I can become very obsessive and very 331 00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:40.790 hyper focused on something and achieve a lot and I'll 332 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:44.630 I'll focus on it for weeks. 24 by 7 I'll be thinking about it, I'll 333 00:21:44.630 --> 00:21:47.230 be lying in bed, I'll be waking up with it. I want to put it 334 00:21:47.230 --> 00:21:51.150 into action and say something else will occur. And I focus 335 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:54.990 on that. And it's like. So yeah, it's interesting that it's a 336 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:57.990 great attribute to have if you want to get stuff done. As long as you've 337 00:21:57.990 --> 00:22:01.790 got someone behind you picking up what you've left and saying, right, okay, 338 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:05.480 that's ready to go. You take it on from here, isn't it? So my 339 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:09.400 mentor, a very wise person, once told me like, you don't have to know everything, 340 00:22:09.560 --> 00:22:13.200 you just have to surround yourself with people who can fill in your gaps. And 341 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:17.200 I thought that was really helpful and useful. I mean this is. A lot 342 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.160 of people just tend to just take everything in and they 343 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.120 don't know how to, I guess, share that work and delegate. But for 344 00:22:25.120 --> 00:22:29.040 me that comes naturally. I think not everyone sees it 345 00:22:29.040 --> 00:22:32.920 as a strength. The thing is, I think you know, as an individual you're 346 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.800 bound to have gaps. No one can know everything, no one can be 347 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.800 good at everything. But if you know what you're really good at, then 348 00:22:40.800 --> 00:22:44.440 you can focus on that and there'll be other people who are really good at 349 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:48.200 the things that you're not so good at. So yeah, I think that works really 350 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.240 well. Yeah, there's another quote. I can't remember if this is accurate or not, but 351 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.120 I think it's something like. Something like if you're the smartest person in the room, 352 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:59.030 you're in the wrong room because you want to be able to grow 353 00:22:59.030 --> 00:23:02.950 and learn and so find a different room to help you 354 00:23:02.950 --> 00:23:06.270 grow and learn. So I think, yeah, it's important that you don't have to be 355 00:23:06.270 --> 00:23:09.310 an expert at everything and you don't need to be the authority on everything. And 356 00:23:10.270 --> 00:23:13.910 it's important that you have your own learning zone. How's your daughter 357 00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:17.790 finding that sort of the way her brain works? Is it a 358 00:23:17.790 --> 00:23:21.430 very similar way to yours in terms of being very hyper 359 00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:25.110 focused and picking things up and then moving on quickly? 360 00:23:25.110 --> 00:23:28.070 It's hard to say at this stage. I think 361 00:23:28.950 --> 00:23:32.750 I can already see what she's really good at. I think she's really good with 362 00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:36.350 numbers at the moment. Her logic 363 00:23:36.350 --> 00:23:40.230 thinking is, well, outstanding. But then she struggles with other things 364 00:23:40.310 --> 00:23:44.270 like sitting down and actually get. I mean if you don't sit 365 00:23:44.270 --> 00:23:48.150 down and force yourself a little bit, you never get into hyper focus. And I 366 00:23:48.150 --> 00:23:51.840 think she struggles with the Kind of sitting down, I think, like. Yeah, no, 367 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.640 I think, like, she's really smart and she just fits 368 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.600 in wherever she goes. I think she's the queen 369 00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:03.600 of masking, though. But 370 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:07.440 she's. Yeah, she's. She's really outstanding. Fabulous, fabulous. 371 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.200 So in the notes, it says here you've chaired numerous 372 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.360 villages, if you want to use your word, women's support groups, 373 00:24:16.090 --> 00:24:19.770 neurodiversity network groups, internal employee resource 374 00:24:19.770 --> 00:24:23.450 groups. And presumably you've also been involved with, what, 375 00:24:23.530 --> 00:24:27.530 industry body groups as well, to promote women 376 00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:31.130 or neurodivergent women across the STEM sector. 377 00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:36.570 Well, it's something that I'm trying to do just now with the imicci. So I'm 378 00:24:36.650 --> 00:24:40.570 a member of the imicci. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a really, I 379 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:44.490 guess, obvious next step at work. I do the 380 00:24:44.650 --> 00:24:48.550 Women and Women plus group, 381 00:24:48.550 --> 00:24:52.550 which is basically for any underrepresented gender. We've 382 00:24:52.550 --> 00:24:56.350 got two others. We've got the LGBTQ and then 383 00:24:56.350 --> 00:25:00.270 we've got neurodivergent group. I'm a member of that 384 00:25:00.270 --> 00:25:04.190 one too. But, yeah, I'm 385 00:25:04.190 --> 00:25:06.950 keen to do as much as possible so that, 386 00:25:07.990 --> 00:25:11.990 you know, I can make a difference, a positive difference. Are we. That's 387 00:25:11.990 --> 00:25:15.940 the question I often tell myself with and other people with, we're 388 00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:19.540 better than we were. But are we really making progress? 389 00:25:19.620 --> 00:25:23.460 I would say yes, definitely, because I can see, like, the 390 00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:27.300 difference between when I was growing up to now. I mean, people 391 00:25:27.300 --> 00:25:31.300 are talking about everything now. We're talking about neurodivergence. 392 00:25:31.300 --> 00:25:34.900 We didn't do that before. We're talking about, well, gender 393 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:38.780 and gender identity, we're talking about sexuality. We're 394 00:25:38.780 --> 00:25:41.460 talking about so many different things that we didn't do before. 395 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:46.360 I can see. I mean, all these things take time. 396 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.920 I don't think we will see the end of it in this generation, 397 00:25:52.040 --> 00:25:55.720 but I can certainly see a huge difference. And the fact that 398 00:25:55.800 --> 00:25:59.440 there are so many people talking about it, people are now 399 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.440 rising up and talking about these things. That's really important. 400 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.240 Not everyone felt safe to do it before, 401 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.360