Sonia Pérez: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 169
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Building Bridges in A Biassed World.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sonia Perez.
Joanne Lockwood: Sonia is an engineer and leader in the energy industry
Joanne Lockwood: who has become a passionate DEI champion, advocating for
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, neurodiversity and psychological safety in the workplace.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked Sonia to describe her superpower, she said that it is to
Joanne Lockwood: turning lived experiences into inclusive leadership and
Joanne Lockwood: most importantly, action. Hello, Sonia, welcome to the show.
Sonia Pérez: Hi, Joanne, thanks for having me. Absolutely brilliant. So you're
Joanne Lockwood: the opposite end of the UK to me. So I'm in Portsmouth and you're up
Joanne Lockwood: in Aberdeen, is that right? So is it. I know us Brits, we like to
Joanne Lockwood: talk about the weather. So what's the weather like up there at the moment? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it. So we're in, what, middle of March?
Sonia Pérez: Yeah, well, it's freezing cold. It's kind of snow. Have you had some
Joanne Lockwood: snow recently? No, but the forecast says maybe. Again,
Sonia Pérez: we seemed like we were getting into spring and then it just went
Sonia Pérez: wrong again. Yeah, it's down to the zeros here. So,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I think it's an icy blast over the whole country. So, yeah, is
Joanne Lockwood: what it is.
Joanne Lockwood: So you've. You're an engineer by profession and
Joanne Lockwood: obviously a leader as well. We talked about that. So how have you kind of
Joanne Lockwood: lent into the DEI journey or the EDI journey,
Joanne Lockwood: and what impact has your own lived experience and background?
Joanne Lockwood: You know, we talked in the green rooms live about intersectionality or the
Joanne Lockwood: depth of our personalities and our lived experience. How's that
Joanne Lockwood: impacted you at work and in your life? Well, I guess
Sonia Pérez: I came into DEI incidentally. It wasn't really
Sonia Pérez: thought of or on purpose, but. But it was more my Lift
Sonia Pérez: journeys. I became a mom
Sonia Pérez: six years ago and well, I guess my experience as an engineer
Sonia Pérez: and as a leader before was different to after. Suddenly you
Sonia Pérez: have to, well, I guess balance your
Sonia Pérez: work life with your family and your personal life. Well,
Sonia Pérez: there isn't much of personal life, to be honest, if you have to compensate
Sonia Pérez: work with children. And at that point we started
Sonia Pérez: suspecting that my daughter neurodivergent and. And then
Sonia Pérez: I hear, well, this is genetic. It's like, oh, okay, well, I wonder if it's
Sonia Pérez: me too. So we start investigating. It's like, well, yeah, that's definitely me
Sonia Pérez: as well. And how. I guess I was going through a really difficult time as
Sonia Pérez: well personally. And how that kind of
Sonia Pérez: neurodiversity, my new ish identity as a mother,
Sonia Pérez: as a single mother actually, and, and the mental health and
Sonia Pérez: so on. Well, it basically just took me into a really steep
Sonia Pérez: learning curve about dei, but one that I actually
Sonia Pérez: am really proud of. Wow. So you're.
Joanne Lockwood: What's been the biggest challenge you faced, you know, as a, as a,
Joanne Lockwood: a woman. Can I use the phrase a woman of colour? Because
Joanne Lockwood: you're, you're not white British, are you? By, by, by,
Joanne Lockwood: by background, has that impacted your experience in the
Joanne Lockwood: workplace as well? I wouldn't say so.
Sonia Pérez: I think even though my skin may be a little bit darker than the British.
Sonia Pérez: Well, not every British obviously, but just
Sonia Pérez: I would say it's still white in that, in that
Sonia Pérez: part. So I don't think I've had, if anything, people like
Sonia Pérez: the colour of my skin. Tanned, I suppose is.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. What's your original background? Is it Portuguese? Spanish? That sort of
Joanne Lockwood: general area? Spanish, yeah, I guess that's general area. The one
Sonia Pérez: thing that I find about my nationality is the jokes about, you
Sonia Pérez: know, how we are lazy and how we sleep siestas
Sonia Pérez: all the time and people who know me for a very long time will
Sonia Pérez: confuse my name by someone else's who's Spanish or.
Sonia Pérez: Yeah, like we're interchangeable.
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose there is. If you've got a US background, you're more likely to be
Joanne Lockwood: Hispanic, Mexican, I guess, as opposed to European Spanish.
Joanne Lockwood: But like the Brits, the Spanish also had
Joanne Lockwood: an empire and conquered half the world and exported our culture and
Joanne Lockwood: language and religion to other parts. And the
Joanne Lockwood: Portuguese did it as well, and the Dutch. We're all guilty of
Joanne Lockwood: spreading our culture to other parts. Unwanted often. No,
Sonia Pérez: but I haven't really faced the big, I guess,
Sonia Pérez: challenges due to my national. I think I'm okay. I'm an
Sonia Pérez: immigrant and you know, you will Always find people who would ask you to go
Sonia Pérez: back home. But frankly, it's not really been an experience
Sonia Pérez: that's shaped my life. It's maybe happened once or twice, but I know other people
Sonia Pérez: get it a lot worse. So you've been in
Joanne Lockwood: engineering, STEM sector, for most of your career. It has
Joanne Lockwood: a reputation for being very male
Joanne Lockwood: dominated, for want of a better expression. How have you found that challenge to
Joanne Lockwood: navigate as a, as a, as a, as a young woman to start with and
Joanne Lockwood: then developing your career and becoming more experienced?
Sonia Pérez: Well, frankly, I. Yes. So I've always been, well,
Sonia Pérez: either the only woman in the room or one of the very few back from
Sonia Pérez: university. I think at the time I really wasn't aware
Sonia Pérez: of any difference in treatment. But when I look back now I,
Sonia Pérez: I see it, I see it now. I think, well, I felt like I
Sonia Pérez: couldn't really be myself, how to fit in with all the other men. I had
Sonia Pérez: to behave like them. And that didn't really. It felt awkward because
Sonia Pérez: it's like you're acting. There's always this kind of, well, sexist
Sonia Pérez: jokes and you kind of have to laugh with them and it's not really funny,
Sonia Pérez: but I don't know, sometimes you can become an object. I think as I've
Sonia Pérez: like once finished university and I started work,
Sonia Pérez: I find everyone quite supportive of me. I've been offshore
Sonia Pérez: in platforms, I've been
Sonia Pérez: as well in the oil and gas industry, but in onshore surveys,
Sonia Pérez: I think I kind of fall into this.
Sonia Pérez: I know I'm not the only one who does it because I've seen other colleagues
Sonia Pérez: do the same. I play dumb and that works quite well because I think people
Sonia Pérez: expect me to be dumb. So rather than the
Sonia Pérez: arrogance, like if you are very like assertive or you, you're sure
Sonia Pérez: of yourself, you're confident, then they think you are being
Sonia Pérez: arrogant. And if you make a mistake, then, well,
Sonia Pérez: that's kind of, it kind of explodes in your face.
Sonia Pérez: So playing dumb kind of works for, for a
Sonia Pérez: lot of people. So what you're effectively saying is
Joanne Lockwood: you're, you're appeasing people to
Joanne Lockwood: ensure that you are successful by not creating waves. And you
Joanne Lockwood: know that if you, as you say, become assertive, become
Joanne Lockwood: more dominant, then you won't be accepted as much, so you have to
Joanne Lockwood: hide who you are really. Just an intelligent, capable
Joanne Lockwood: engineer has to kind of limit their own potential by
Joanne Lockwood: dumbing it down. Is that, is that, is that what you're saying you've learned to
Joanne Lockwood: do? Yeah, I suppose. Like when
Sonia Pérez: maybe I'm asking a question I mean, I know the answer to it, but, you
Sonia Pérez: know, you don't. I think people feel a bit. A bit more like,
Sonia Pérez: defensive when a woman challenges them. So you don't really
Sonia Pérez: challenge them straight on. You ask questions and you kind of
Sonia Pérez: play dumb. Like, you know, is it really. I mean, I'm
Sonia Pérez: not too sure about this. You know, it's not like you just go
Sonia Pérez: and tell them. And I know there's a big difference between the way
Sonia Pérez: I did it as a leader and how other colleague
Sonia Pérez: who are men dealt with it. But then they didn't have the
Sonia Pérez: pushback that I did. Right. So
Joanne Lockwood: how do you, how do you succeed yourself in a
Joanne Lockwood: world where you have to kind of minimise like that? How do you
Joanne Lockwood: take advantage of opportunities where people maybe see you as not
Joanne Lockwood: confident because that's the way you're portraying yourself? I don't have an answer to that.
Sonia Pérez: I would love to know the answer. Um, I think,
Sonia Pérez: well, and throughout my life, I would say I've achieved quite a lot.
Sonia Pérez: How did I do it? Well, I think, well, looking back,
Sonia Pérez: it's more about the people who, you know, is the networking. It's.
Sonia Pérez: There is people with whom you can be yourself and they will respect you
Sonia Pérez: and they value you for who you are because they can see everything about
Sonia Pérez: you. And then there is the other people who, well,
Sonia Pérez: feel a bit more threatened by me or other people or other women
Sonia Pérez: showing who they really are. I would say
Sonia Pérez: I had a lot of support, but, you know, my network, my
Sonia Pérez: village, let's say. So it's always about doing the right thing, being
Sonia Pérez: kind to other people, being respectful, always trying to learn
Sonia Pérez: different perspectives. Because in that way people start kind of
Sonia Pérez: wanting to work with you. They start like learning from you. They see the value
Sonia Pérez: in you. I think that's what got me where
Sonia Pérez: I was. But I don't know how it continues from there because it
Sonia Pérez: really depends on who you're working with. Yeah, Obviously
Joanne Lockwood: your daughter is going to be entering the workplace at some
Joanne Lockwood: point soon, or maybe not soon, but
Joanne Lockwood: in years to come. What advice would you give her
Joanne Lockwood: entering the workplace and building her career,
Joanne Lockwood: knowing what you know about how you've had to integrate into the
Joanne Lockwood: workplace? It's quite deep. Thought
Sonia Pérez: I would. The first thing would be to build her village. That's going to
Sonia Pérez: be really key because there's always going to be people who will want
Sonia Pérez: to see her fail. And probably it's not going to be personal, but
Sonia Pérez: it's more going to be like, like a more systematic
Sonia Pérez: belief. So. But there will be people who want her
Sonia Pérez: to succeed. So it's about finding that village,
Sonia Pérez: that network that is going to support her, that's going
Sonia Pérez: to give her that kind of perspective that you may
Sonia Pérez: lose when people, when you don't feel like you
Sonia Pérez: can be yourself or you start like, what other people think or say start rubbing
Sonia Pérez: on you, like, I'm not good enough. There's always this village
Sonia Pérez: who will tell you, even in the times where you don't believe in yourself,
Sonia Pérez: that you are really good just the way you are. So I would say that's
Sonia Pérez: the most important thing. And I think
Sonia Pérez: take space, take your space. I mean, it's the.
Sonia Pérez: The more you talk about things, the more open you are,
Sonia Pérez: the more you demand, you know, to be just like everyone
Sonia Pérez: else and having the same opportunities, the more
Sonia Pérez: likely is that you will get them. I think, you
Sonia Pérez: know, if. If people just remain quiet and accept the
Sonia Pérez: state of school, it's never going to change. And that's, you know, what the previous
Sonia Pérez: generations to us did. We're not starting from scratch, you and I,
Sonia Pérez: and, you know, our children won't start from scratch because we are
Sonia Pérez: fighting that battle as well. Yeah, I mean, we mentioned psychological safety
Joanne Lockwood: in the opening.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not right that you have to kind of hide part of you. If you
Joanne Lockwood: think about some of the four tenets of psychological safety, one is inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: safety. Being yourself, isn't it? And having to cover yourself means that
Joanne Lockwood: you're fitting into other people's expectations, which is a huge
Joanne Lockwood: mental cognitive load to have to think about that all the time, isn't it?
Sonia Pérez: It is, yeah. I think, to be
Sonia Pérez: honest, I didn't realise I was doing it until very recently.
Sonia Pérez: Just when I. I mean, neurodiver divergence, what is that? I mean,
Sonia Pérez: back when I was younger, it was only boys that were
Sonia Pérez: neurodivergent and just, you know, the ones that showed
Sonia Pérez: neurodivergence in a. In a very stereotypical way. So
Sonia Pérez: a lot there is a lost, lost generations of,
Sonia Pérez: well, people who didn't get diagnosed at time. At the time. So
Sonia Pérez: at the moment, I mean, I got diagnosed,
Sonia Pérez: what was it, like a year ago. So I'm still learning who
Sonia Pérez: I am. And I remember when I got
Sonia Pérez: the diagnosis and I called my mom to tell her and
Sonia Pérez: I wasn't sad, I wasn't angry, I was okay. But I
Sonia Pérez: burst into tears and I was trying to explain my mom, I'm okay. I'm actually
Sonia Pérez: okay. I don't know what I'm crying. It's just like this overwhelm of suddenly
Sonia Pérez: just looking Back and seeing, you know, all
Sonia Pérez: of this happened because of this kind of how my brain
Sonia Pérez: works and how I was trying to fit in with everyone else.
Sonia Pérez: So it was quite an overwhelming feeling realising
Sonia Pérez: that I've been masking my whole life without even knowing.
Sonia Pérez: And now I, I'm not so good at masking
Sonia Pérez: anymore. I don't know why. But now that I know that, you know, this is
Sonia Pérez: who I am, it's a lot harder for me to try to pretend to be
Sonia Pérez: someone that I'm not. As far as age, experience. And,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, you get to that point, as you say, you, you know, it's not
Joanne Lockwood: you. You know, you just, it just. This is who you are and you're not
Joanne Lockwood: having to sort of COVID up things that you,
Joanne Lockwood: you previously would have done because you thought you were failing. But actually it's just
Joanne Lockwood: part of your identity. And yeah, I think the
Joanne Lockwood: older you get though, the less, the less tolerant you are of,
Joanne Lockwood: of. Of people's perceptions of you. And you're more like to be yourself, I think,
Joanne Lockwood: become more confident in your ability. And the thing is, I do
Sonia Pérez: have a lot of people. Well, my family is. Well, we're really close,
Sonia Pérez: even in the distance, but they are very supportive and they've
Sonia Pérez: been learning as well. Now, like the. Well, my stepdad started studying
Sonia Pérez: psychology just to understand, you know, my daughter and me, like, how near the
Sonia Pérez: virgins and my mom's read all the books in the world. Now it's a shame
Sonia Pérez: because, you know, they didn't know before and neither did I.
Sonia Pérez: And now is kind of trying to catch up with all of this. My
Sonia Pérez: friends are very supportive and there is a lot of people at work that
Sonia Pérez: are very supportive of me as well. And so this is really nice to see
Sonia Pérez: that, you know, it's okay for me to be who I am.
Joanne Lockwood: You said in your notes you submitted for the show that
Joanne Lockwood: your, if you like, awareness of your own neurodiversity stemmed from your
Joanne Lockwood: daughter's neurodiversity and the diagnosis of her. And you saw traits in her
Joanne Lockwood: that you'd recognise in yourself. So what were the key things maybe in your
Joanne Lockwood: daughter that you spotted that resonated with you? It wasn't
Sonia Pérez: obvious to start with. She was three years old when this started
Sonia Pérez: and it was behavioural. And me, I've always been a really calm
Sonia Pérez: child. I never had like any issues. But she.
Sonia Pérez: A few years down the line, we figured out it was sensory processing. She
Sonia Pérez: had a big issue with that, especially like clothes
Sonia Pérez: and stuff. I've never experienced that. But she Started.
Sonia Pérez: Well, when we start looking at that behaviour as a
Sonia Pérez: very young child, it sometimes leads into neurodivergence and
Sonia Pérez: how children understand the world and how they're processing information.
Sonia Pérez: So I wondered if, like, is it adhd? Is it
Sonia Pérez: autism? And then apparently something came up that I had never heard about,
Sonia Pérez: which was giftedness. And I thought
Sonia Pérez: giftedness, okay, well, the kind of conversations that my daughter
Sonia Pérez: was having with me when she was three years old were
Sonia Pérez: not what you would expect from a child is like, that's the conversation I would
Sonia Pérez: expect to have with an adult talking about, like, well, really
Sonia Pérez: philosophical matters like, you know, death and pregnancy,
Sonia Pérez: miscarriages. I had just had one. And relationship breakdowns and
Sonia Pérez: I, it just caught me completely off guard. And
Sonia Pérez: so giftedness, ADHD and autism
Sonia Pérez: have very similar traits, actually. And I
Sonia Pérez: didn't, I knew nothing about that. So it's not recognised in
Sonia Pérez: the UK yet, but it's in, in the US and in Spain and maybe in
Sonia Pérez: other countries as well. So I personally didn't think
Sonia Pérez: she got that from me. And it's this thing about ADHD and being
Sonia Pérez: a woman as well that you, you always think that you're
Sonia Pérez: not smart enough. For example, I was in,
Sonia Pérez: in class and I was always a really good student and
Sonia Pérez: I had really good grades, but I just couldn't pay attention
Sonia Pérez: when the teacher was kind of giving the lecture. And I
Sonia Pérez: thought that's because I'm not, you know, smart enough.
Sonia Pérez: And so, yeah, I. She's not diagnosed yet because she's very young. But I
Sonia Pérez: got my diagnosis and I was really surprised to see that not only I
Sonia Pérez: had adhd, but I was gifted. And, well, I always thought
Sonia Pérez: I wasn't that smart. So what, you know, you talked about
Joanne Lockwood: gifted and how has that manifested itself in your career?
Joanne Lockwood: There aren't many women still in STEM subjects and
Joanne Lockwood: I've always associated, rightly or wrongly, with
Joanne Lockwood: neurodivergence. Being engineer y, technical
Joanne Lockwood: type people, they communicate better with things than they do
Joanne Lockwood: with people often. Do you think that has had an impact on you being able
Joanne Lockwood: to focus on engineering topics? I don't know. I mean, for
Sonia Pérez: it's. It's a bit difficult knowing where, you know, the, the autism,
Sonia Pérez: ADHD and giftedness kind of ends to start
Sonia Pérez: where the other one begins. For the giftedness has been more about feeling
Sonia Pérez: easily bored. I mean, I need a challenge and my motivation
Sonia Pérez: cycles kind of peak when I, I get
Sonia Pérez: something new, something challenging, something I'm learning from, but kind
Sonia Pérez: of dissipates quite quickly and easily.
Sonia Pérez: I say, like, the other thing was authority. If someone
Sonia Pérez: doesn't justify something, well, reasonably well to me, then
Sonia Pérez: I, I find it difficult to, to, to follow it.
Sonia Pérez: I think from, from the ADHD point of view, I
Sonia Pérez: am not very good with details and you would know that. You
Sonia Pérez: particularly because I turned up to this meeting a month ago
Sonia Pérez: on the 14th, on the 14th of March, because I
Sonia Pérez: scanned through like, you know, reading
Sonia Pérez: and I seen the 14 and yeah, this is not the first time it
Sonia Pérez: happened. So I knew it was probably my fault that no one turned up to
Sonia Pérez: the call rather than someone else's. So, you know, the
Sonia Pérez: numbers aren't the best for me, the details, but
Sonia Pérez: I'm really good with abstract thinking. I'm really good with
Sonia Pérez: empathy, for example, like talking to people, understanding
Sonia Pérez: what's important to each person and
Sonia Pérez: building that trust. From the engineering point of view, what I was really keen
Sonia Pérez: on is understanding why things happen, how things work. It's like
Sonia Pérez: that kind of puzzle. I've never been diagnosed. I'm not sure whether
Joanne Lockwood: I was ticking off boxes, but I share a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: your kind of thinking there. You know, every time I find something
Joanne Lockwood: new, I want to rip it apart, put it back together, rip it apart, put
Joanne Lockwood: it back together. And then once I've done that a few times I go, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: bored with that now. What's next? Oh, another shiny thing, Another. So I've got a
Joanne Lockwood: whole, whole catalogue of things I've had a good go at and I've become
Joanne Lockwood: a very quick expert on and then push it to one side
Joanne Lockwood: because my background's in it and I found that
Joanne Lockwood: extremely challenging for most of my life and really got involved with it and all
Joanne Lockwood: of a sudden in my 40s, I got bored with it. I just thought, I
Joanne Lockwood: can't do. I've had enough of this, it's not exciting me anymore.
Joanne Lockwood: I want to find a new shiny object. I share a lot of that with
Joanne Lockwood: you. It's important to keep stimulating the brain
Joanne Lockwood: and I'm either, I'm either a hundred percent in or I'm a hundred percent out.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't, I don't do it in the middle. Oh yeah, yeah.
Sonia Pérez: Middle grounds don't really exist in my head. No. Yeah. If
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not interested, if I'm. If I'm not into it, I'm not into it. That's
Joanne Lockwood: it. I'm not, you're not going to persuade me. But to me that, that's, that's
Joanne Lockwood: quite powerful because I can become very obsessive and very
Joanne Lockwood: hyper focused on something and achieve a lot and I'll
Joanne Lockwood: I'll focus on it for weeks. 24 by 7 I'll be thinking about it, I'll
Joanne Lockwood: be lying in bed, I'll be waking up with it. I want to put it
Joanne Lockwood: into action and say something else will occur. And I focus
Joanne Lockwood: on that. And it's like. So yeah, it's interesting that it's a
Joanne Lockwood: great attribute to have if you want to get stuff done. As long as you've
Joanne Lockwood: got someone behind you picking up what you've left and saying, right, okay,
Joanne Lockwood: that's ready to go. You take it on from here, isn't it? So my
Sonia Pérez: mentor, a very wise person, once told me like, you don't have to know everything,
Sonia Pérez: you just have to surround yourself with people who can fill in your gaps. And
Sonia Pérez: I thought that was really helpful and useful. I mean this is. A lot
Sonia Pérez: of people just tend to just take everything in and they
Sonia Pérez: don't know how to, I guess, share that work and delegate. But for
Sonia Pérez: me that comes naturally. I think not everyone sees it
Sonia Pérez: as a strength. The thing is, I think you know, as an individual you're
Sonia Pérez: bound to have gaps. No one can know everything, no one can be
Sonia Pérez: good at everything. But if you know what you're really good at, then
Sonia Pérez: you can focus on that and there'll be other people who are really good at
Sonia Pérez: the things that you're not so good at. So yeah, I think that works really
Sonia Pérez: well. Yeah, there's another quote. I can't remember if this is accurate or not, but
Joanne Lockwood: I think it's something like. Something like if you're the smartest person in the room,
Joanne Lockwood: you're in the wrong room because you want to be able to grow
Joanne Lockwood: and learn and so find a different room to help you
Joanne Lockwood: grow and learn. So I think, yeah, it's important that you don't have to be
Joanne Lockwood: an expert at everything and you don't need to be the authority on everything. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's important that you have your own learning zone. How's your daughter
Joanne Lockwood: finding that sort of the way her brain works? Is it a
Joanne Lockwood: very similar way to yours in terms of being very hyper
Joanne Lockwood: focused and picking things up and then moving on quickly?
Sonia Pérez: It's hard to say at this stage. I think
Sonia Pérez: I can already see what she's really good at. I think she's really good with
Sonia Pérez: numbers at the moment. Her logic
Sonia Pérez: thinking is, well, outstanding. But then she struggles with other things
Sonia Pérez: like sitting down and actually get. I mean if you don't sit
Sonia Pérez: down and force yourself a little bit, you never get into hyper focus. And I
Sonia Pérez: think she struggles with the Kind of sitting down, I think, like. Yeah, no,
Sonia Pérez: I think, like, she's really smart and she just fits
Sonia Pérez: in wherever she goes. I think she's the queen
Sonia Pérez: of masking, though. But
Sonia Pérez: she's. Yeah, she's. She's really outstanding. Fabulous, fabulous.
Joanne Lockwood: So in the notes, it says here you've chaired numerous
Joanne Lockwood: villages, if you want to use your word, women's support groups,
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity network groups, internal employee resource
Joanne Lockwood: groups. And presumably you've also been involved with, what,
Joanne Lockwood: industry body groups as well, to promote women
Joanne Lockwood: or neurodivergent women across the STEM sector.
Sonia Pérez: Well, it's something that I'm trying to do just now with the imicci. So I'm
Sonia Pérez: a member of the imicci. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a really, I
Sonia Pérez: guess, obvious next step at work. I do the
Sonia Pérez: Women and Women plus group,
Sonia Pérez: which is basically for any underrepresented gender. We've
Sonia Pérez: got two others. We've got the LGBTQ and then
Sonia Pérez: we've got neurodivergent group. I'm a member of that
Sonia Pérez: one too. But, yeah, I'm
Sonia Pérez: keen to do as much as possible so that,
Sonia Pérez: you know, I can make a difference, a positive difference. Are we. That's
Joanne Lockwood: the question I often tell myself with and other people with, we're
Joanne Lockwood: better than we were. But are we really making progress?
Sonia Pérez: I would say yes, definitely, because I can see, like, the
Sonia Pérez: difference between when I was growing up to now. I mean, people
Sonia Pérez: are talking about everything now. We're talking about neurodivergence.
Sonia Pérez: We didn't do that before. We're talking about, well, gender
Sonia Pérez: and gender identity, we're talking about sexuality. We're
Sonia Pérez: talking about so many different things that we didn't do before.
Sonia Pérez: I can see. I mean, all these things take time.
Sonia Pérez: I don't think we will see the end of it in this generation,
Sonia Pérez: but I can certainly see a huge difference. And the fact that
Sonia Pérez: there are so many people talking about it, people are now
Sonia Pérez: rising up and talking about these things. That's really important.
Sonia Pérez: Not everyone felt safe to do it before,
Sonia Pérez: and there was a lot of things that we didn't know about.
Joanne Lockwood: You mentioned the notes that you've had some challenges in your life
Joanne Lockwood: around your own mental health, going through an eating
Joanne Lockwood: disorder phase of your life. Do you think that's all linked to some of your
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity, or do you think that they're separate threads?
Sonia Pérez: I'm glad you're asking that question. I did investigate this. I did
Sonia Pérez: some research, because I wondered, and there is a very clear link with my
Sonia Pérez: Neurodivergence and my gender. So the eating disorders specifically,
Sonia Pérez: um, I've not been diagnosed with this, but I know that I've always
Sonia Pérez: had a bit of an unhealthy relationship with food and my
Sonia Pérez: weight. And, you know, it can either be through,
Sonia Pérez: you know, just eating compulsively or
Sonia Pérez: being really fixated on my weight. So it can go both
Sonia Pérez: directions. I know, like, when I was growing up, when I was a teenager, you
Sonia Pérez: know, like, you want to fit in. And I think I didn't know back then,
Sonia Pérez: but obviously I sensed that, you know, maybe struggled a little bit more
Sonia Pérez: to fit in with the. With the rest of the people. And, you know, body
Sonia Pérez: image is really important whether you fit in or not. Especially, like, as
Sonia Pérez: a woman or as a girl. Now you are expected
Sonia Pérez: to look in a specific way. And this is almost like you.
Sonia Pérez: Yeah. To please men and. Well, yeah, so
Sonia Pérez: a lot of it, like, I think, you know, back then, I wouldn't say
Sonia Pérez: I had anorexia, I wouldn't say I had bulimia, but I would say that
Sonia Pérez: I was really obsessed with my weight, and I was probably at my lowest weight.
Sonia Pérez: And then the thing that happens to me is eventually a snap out of it.
Sonia Pérez: When you were talking about before, like, you get really obsessed with something for a
Sonia Pérez: while, and then you lose interest. So that happens to me as
Sonia Pérez: well with this kind of things. So. So I lost interest. And then I think,
Sonia Pérez: you know, the emotional eating came, like, you know, as you grow up and
Sonia Pérez: you start getting more responsibilities, you. You again, you
Sonia Pérez: feel like you don't fit in. In a lot of instances, it's
Sonia Pérez: almost like you're. You're on your own fighting with the whole world, you know,
Sonia Pérez: and. And you just feel like kind of sense of
Sonia Pérez: isolation, of lack of, sense of belonging. That kind of
Sonia Pérez: need for a deep connection isn't really met. Even though, you know, you may
Sonia Pérez: have friends and a partner and family, you know, you're really
Sonia Pérez: close to all of them. But I. I found, like, that kind of sense
Sonia Pérez: of belonging wasn't
Sonia Pérez: never there, like, 100%. And I started, like,
Sonia Pérez: compulsively eating. I mean, I have a sweet tooth. That doesn't help, to be honest.
Sonia Pérez: Yeah, I mean, as you grow older, that becomes more difficult because you
Sonia Pérez: have even more responsibilities, you know, at work. If you. If you kind
Sonia Pérez: of went up in your career, you know, you progressed, if you have
Sonia Pérez: married children, and, you know, relationships are difficult as well. All the
Sonia Pérez: kind of responsibilities in the household and. And then you
Sonia Pérez: eat, you eat and you eat like, all the Kind of stuff that you shouldn't
Sonia Pérez: be eating. So, yes, I noticed. Well,
Sonia Pérez: in my research I saw that. Can't remember the
Sonia Pérez: figures exactly, is in the LinkedIn videos. But basically,
Sonia Pérez: neurodivergent women are a lot
Sonia Pérez: more likely to get an eating disorder
Sonia Pérez: than any other. Well, any other person.
Joanne Lockwood: Explained to me that I personally have what I would call an addictive
Joanne Lockwood: tendency, so I tend to binge on stuff. So
Joanne Lockwood: I had a poor relationship with alcohol most of my life. I would never describe
Joanne Lockwood: myself as an alcoholic, but I used to consume
Joanne Lockwood: excess amounts regularly, often in
Joanne Lockwood: binge format. You know, two or three days I would be drinking very, very
Joanne Lockwood: heavily and then a habit during the week. And my
Joanne Lockwood: weight has also tended upwards most of my life and
Joanne Lockwood: on occasions I've done something about it and I've lost 10 stone, give
Joanne Lockwood: or take, and I've put it back on over the course of another three or
Joanne Lockwood: four years. So I've got this look at my weight chart. It looks like an
Joanne Lockwood: M. So I go up and then down, then back up again and then back
Joanne Lockwood: down again. So I'm currently on my downward cycle. I've lost about
Joanne Lockwood: seven and a half stone in the last year and a bit. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I get what you're saying. That becomes,
Joanne Lockwood: if I see a buffet, I don't have a stop button. It's kind of, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: I want a bit of that, I want a bit of that, I want a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of that. Suddenly your plate is like a volcano erupting
Joanne Lockwood: all over the place. But it's so difficult to take one of something.
Joanne Lockwood: So I know that about me now. And that's why I often
Joanne Lockwood: ask other people to pick me a plate. Can you fill my plate up for
Joanne Lockwood: me? They go, why? I say you'll fill it up reasonably, I'll
Joanne Lockwood: overindulge. So, yeah, that's the secret I've learned
Joanne Lockwood: is get somewhere else to fill your plate and then don't go back for
Joanne Lockwood: seconds, just stop at that point. So,
Sonia Pérez: so what I, what I read was that ADHD is.
Sonia Pérez: People with ADHD are more likely to experience
Sonia Pérez: binge eating disorder because that kind of impulsivity.
Sonia Pérez: Well, we are more likely to get into addictions for me,
Sonia Pérez: with chocolate, maybe bread as well. And people with
Sonia Pérez: anorexia, autism. Well, in particular
Sonia Pérez: women are more likely to, to experience anorexia and
Sonia Pérez: bulimia because of that kind of,
Sonia Pérez: well, rigidity, being rigid with their habits.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think you're right. You become very
Joanne Lockwood: focused on other things and eating is just either something you're fixated
Joanne Lockwood: on or you're not bothered by it. And I go through phases where if I'm
Joanne Lockwood: in hyper focus mode, I could spend all day and think I
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly feel hungry at the end of the day thinking, oh, I haven't eaten today,
Joanne Lockwood: have I? And you just forget all about it, don't you? So that's actually something
Sonia Pérez: that happened to me quite a lot and probably a lot of people with ADHD
Sonia Pérez: is that. And I went to a nutritionist who's
Sonia Pérez: worked with people with ADHD before and she was saying that you
Sonia Pérez: need an alarm because you can't go like, if you go into hyper focus
Sonia Pérez: mode then you're going to forget, you're going to ignore your hunger cues and
Sonia Pérez: then you're going to be like so hungry that you know, you want to do
Sonia Pérez: with like healthy food, you'll just want the unhealthy stuff and
Sonia Pérez: you'll binge eat and then you know, everything is just going to go mad, like
Sonia Pérez: your sugar levels and so yeah, an alarm and just being
Sonia Pérez: conscious. But yeah, when you get. Sometimes I find that like, you know,
Sonia Pérez: this kind of hyper focus happens when in the least
Sonia Pérez: convenient time and then it's like you just can't get up. I mean, I just
Sonia Pérez: need to continue. It's like this, this is like this
Sonia Pérez: kind of supernatural force keeping you from,
Sonia Pérez: you know, eating, drinking, going to the toilet. Yeah. Now
Joanne Lockwood: I get that it's hard sometimes when you, you
Joanne Lockwood: have this intersectional makeup not to focus on sort
Joanne Lockwood: of parts of your identity because if you're not careful, you get
Joanne Lockwood: labelled as being one thing or another thing. But really
Joanne Lockwood: that's not what excites you, that's not who you are. And do you find that
Joanne Lockwood: if you're not careful talking about neurodiversity or some of your mental health challenges or
Joanne Lockwood: something that's gone in your past suddenly creates this, this
Joanne Lockwood: label about you that you don't really want to own.
Sonia Pérez: Yes. And that's why I thought for, for a while, whether I wanted
Sonia Pérez: to, to discuss this or not, because what I've learned is
Sonia Pérez: that neurodiversity presents very differently to different people.
Sonia Pérez: And I mean usually it's not even one, you experience more than
Sonia Pérez: one. At the same time, mental health, culture, gender, there's
Sonia Pérez: so many different things. This, I mean the way I
Sonia Pérez: and other friends that, or colleagues that I know are new to the virgin. I
Sonia Pérez: mean we are so different. Even me, my daughter, we are so different. I'd have
Joanne Lockwood: to ask you about what you do, you know, day to day. Cause I noticed
Joanne Lockwood: the notes you Work onshore and onshore and offshore.
Joanne Lockwood: Offshore. Sounds to me like the rigs. Is that. Is that the rigs you're working
Joanne Lockwood: on or is that offshore somewhere else?
Sonia Pérez: No, that was in the rigs, but that was. That was many ages ago
Sonia Pérez: before I became a mum. So I did some. Yeah, so I went to some
Sonia Pérez: rigs in the North Tea. So what sort of engineering were you doing there? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it. Was it the drilling part? The. What's your specialism? If
Joanne Lockwood: you like. Well, mechanical. That's what I did. Mechanical. So designing
Joanne Lockwood: motors or cutting or. Or structural.
Sonia Pérez: I don't design anymore, unfortunately. It's more like checking
Sonia Pérez: that someone else's design or,
Sonia Pérez: you know. Yes, we are checking in the energy industry
Sonia Pérez: that things are safe. You know,
Sonia Pérez: imagine like if something went wrong offshore. Well, I mean, it's
Sonia Pérez: happened before, so we don't have to imagine it. And that's what we are trying
Sonia Pérez: to stop. So you're in sort of QA and risk and quality assurance,
Joanne Lockwood: sort of, sort of side. Ah, okay. So obviously becoming a
Joanne Lockwood: mum changed a lot of your career
Joanne Lockwood: aspirations and availability to get in stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: So what's your new passion? Is it about being more in a leadership role or.
Sonia Pérez: I would say, yeah, leadership was probably one of my. One of the things
Sonia Pérez: I was really interested in. I'm not in a leadership position now, but
Sonia Pérez: I was for six years and I found that,
Sonia Pérez: well, I got into it by accident, let's say. You know, we were talking about
Sonia Pérez: how when you've done this for a while, you just lose that
Sonia Pérez: motivation. You want something else. And the one thing that came up was a leadership
Sonia Pérez: position. And I got it. And I would say I quite
Sonia Pérez: like working with people. I like helping people.
Sonia Pérez: I like making a difference to people's lives. Because, you know,
Sonia Pérez: work is not just about work. It doesn't end there. You know, it kind
Sonia Pérez: of follows the person, whatever the goal. So that was something I was quite
Sonia Pérez: passionate about. I'm not sure what I'm passionate about now. I like my hobby,
Sonia Pérez: say I have one, because I don't have time for more. But writing is something
Sonia Pérez: I really enjoy. And do I see for the notes, you've got two
Joanne Lockwood: master's degrees, one's one's in engineering and one's in creative writing. So you've.
Joanne Lockwood: You've thrown yourself into the writing as quite a big hobby.
Sonia Pérez: It's quite big. And it's like, well, maybe, I don't know, who knows, maybe one
Sonia Pérez: day I'll. I'll be a published writer. Who knows? So
Joanne Lockwood: you've written Lots of novels. But you've never published them, is it, is that, is
Joanne Lockwood: that where you are with it? Well, I wouldn't say I've written lots. I've
Sonia Pérez: written two and a half. Written two and a half
Joanne Lockwood: and then. Suddenly there is not many. There's not a lot of time. It's like,
Sonia Pérez: you know, like with writing or when as an engineer I work in front
Sonia Pérez: of a computer all day. So my hobby
Sonia Pérez: is not one that actually encouraged me, encourages me to
Sonia Pérez: socialise and go outside. Which makes it really hard for me just to
Sonia Pérez: switch from one side from, from, you know, one job in front of the
Sonia Pérez: computer to the next one in front of the computer on my own. I think
Sonia Pérez: I, you know, I struggle a little bit to, to find the time. Yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: can, I can imagine. Yeah. In today's modern life there's always something to do, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: there? As I say, being a full time mum is a full time job and
Joanne Lockwood: we shouldn't, yeah, shouldn't make excuses for
Joanne Lockwood: that. I think it's a necessary part of, of development because I look back at
Joanne Lockwood: my childhood and my, my mum was a stay at home mom. She didn't, she
Joanne Lockwood: effectively stopped work but she got married at the age of 23,
Joanne Lockwood: 24 and she had three children. I was the first
Joanne Lockwood: and she didn't go back to work or start working again until
Joanne Lockwood: her very late forties when we were all, I think my
Joanne Lockwood: youngest brother was probably 12, 13 at the time, going
Joanne Lockwood: to school and she became a teacher. So she got into teaching and into
Joanne Lockwood: the junior and primary school. But she was a very
Joanne Lockwood: great mother and I value my upbringing of having a full time mum.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't imagine what it'd be like to be a
Joanne Lockwood: latchkey kid these days where you don't have a full time parent around. So it's
Joanne Lockwood: a real challenge though trying to divide up your desire to
Joanne Lockwood: be a great parent versus your need to earn a living.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a challenge we have, isn't it? Well, I would say apart
Sonia Pérez: from the need of earning a living which, you know, most of us
Sonia Pérez: have, it's also, you know, that
Sonia Pérez: sense of achievement. I mean being a parent is not something I would
Sonia Pérez: change for anything in the world. I love it. But there is more to me
Sonia Pérez: than that and I think there is more to a lot of us than being
Sonia Pérez: a parent. There is a lot of, you know, dimensions to, to who
Sonia Pérez: we are and I think, you know, whether it's my job or,
Sonia Pérez: you know, my hobbies or, you know, something else, I find it important
Sonia Pérez: to Find that time to, to actually grow, to, to
Sonia Pérez: learn well, just to get that sense of achievement from
Sonia Pérez: life. I've heard it said several times that, you know, as a woman,
Joanne Lockwood: you, you, you have to choose. You know, there is a choice to be
Joanne Lockwood: made between a career and motherhood or
Joanne Lockwood: parenthood that often men don't have to have to
Joanne Lockwood: have that dilemma. And I don't want to stereotype anybody here,
Joanne Lockwood: but have you found that challenge yourself where there's a conflict
Joanne Lockwood: between having a career and being a great
Joanne Lockwood: mum or being the mum you want to be as being in
Joanne Lockwood: conflict? I would say so, yes. But I would argue that men are
Sonia Pérez: in the same position. While women often choose family,
Sonia Pérez: men are forced to choose work. So I mean, we are all sacrificing
Sonia Pérez: something. Men are sacrificing time with their families, while women
Sonia Pérez: may be sacrificing time, well, their careers.
Sonia Pérez: I, I just recently heard something from in the Women plus
Sonia Pérez: erg as support group at work and it was really,
Sonia Pérez: it was quite profound. It's like you can have everything, just not everything at
Sonia Pérez: the same time. And I was good because I thought, like, I didn't feel like
Sonia Pérez: I could have the career that I want plus, you know, be,
Sonia Pérez: be a mother and be with my, my child. But that is just now,
Sonia Pérez: isn't it? Life is long. Hopefully life is long
Sonia Pérez: and things will change. Yeah. It's interesting as you say, that
Joanne Lockwood: my mum, that I'm a super fan of my mum
Joanne Lockwood: in 86, something like that. 86 this year
Joanne Lockwood: and my father passed away a couple of months ago. I haven't been in a
Joanne Lockwood: nursing home for a couple of years and she's
Joanne Lockwood: now establishing her single life, if you like. You know, she's now
Joanne Lockwood: rediscovering that having
Joanne Lockwood: no responsibility for another person, not being codependent on anybody,
Joanne Lockwood: being able to make her own decisions on things that she probably couldn't have done
Joanne Lockwood: for most of her married life. And she's now finding this
Joanne Lockwood: freedom. But it's taken her a while to become comfortable
Joanne Lockwood: with not having to ask or not have to think about something, just being
Joanne Lockwood: ultimately selfish, doing what she wants to do. And you say that
Joanne Lockwood: you can't have every, you can't have everything, just not all at once. So I
Joanne Lockwood: think she's now having the life that she did. She had to
Joanne Lockwood: give up or park in her early days to now experience in
Joanne Lockwood: her late 80s. And she's going, she's going for it big time. She's. I want
Joanne Lockwood: to keep going till I'm 100 at least. And yeah, if you use it
Joanne Lockwood: or lose it, as she keeps saying. So you've got to keep active, you've got
Joanne Lockwood: to keep out there, get doing stuff. She goes to yoga, she goes to
Joanne Lockwood: Palati's classes in the local town hall. She meets with her friends for coffee
Joanne Lockwood: and yeah, she does loads of stuff now she's busy as I am. It's
Joanne Lockwood: incredible. Yeah. Really, really, really powerful woman and I love it a
Joanne Lockwood: bit. That is quite inspirational. Yeah. I think probably
Sonia Pérez: in the past, both women and men and, well,
Sonia Pérez: anyone. I don't think anyone had the choice to
Sonia Pérez: do whatever they wanted to. It was more like what they
Sonia Pérez: were expected to do, the role they were supposed to take in society. But it
Sonia Pérez: is now. You asked me before, do you think it's changed? Well, the fact that
Sonia Pérez: your mom is able to now have a different, very different life, I
Sonia Pérez: guess, is a proof of that. Yeah, it's.
Joanne Lockwood: But she lived a very traditional married life. She
Joanne Lockwood: got married in 1963, so she was born in the
Joanne Lockwood: 30s. My father was born six years older than her. And
Joanne Lockwood: they were kind of a product of their upbringing where man goes to
Joanne Lockwood: work, woman stays at home sort of thing. And that was kind
Joanne Lockwood: of predestined from the indoctrination their parents had
Joanne Lockwood: given them and the village they were being
Joanne Lockwood: supported by. My father was in the navy, so it was a very much.
Joanne Lockwood: The navy was men and the naval wives were women at home or
Joanne Lockwood: living in naval quarters. And I came along and my mum became a
Joanne Lockwood: mum and I guess that was. She didn't know any different.
Joanne Lockwood: And even when I got married in the late 80s,
Joanne Lockwood: that was still the model. Women were kind of still really expected
Joanne Lockwood: to stop being a worker and become a mother and a stay
Joanne Lockwood: at home parent. And it was. I think we didn't see
Joanne Lockwood: any evolution of that. Maybe it was the Spice Girls and Girl Power that came
Joanne Lockwood: along in the 90s that started waking people up to the idea, you can
Joanne Lockwood: have choice here. Yes. And I think perhaps
Sonia Pérez: nowadays we see more women going to
Sonia Pérez: work and men staying at home with
Sonia Pérez: their children. I mean, there is some
Sonia Pérez: traditional still kept there because.
Sonia Pérez: I don't know. But my experience and the experience of many other people
Sonia Pérez: I think as well is that, yes, we can go and work if we
Sonia Pérez: choose to. We still have to deal with most of the stuff at home as
Sonia Pérez: well. So it becomes like. Yeah, it
Sonia Pérez: becomes like a lot. A lot. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: we still have gendered roles, don't we? And someone
Joanne Lockwood: said to me, you know, it's all very well being having a stay at home
Joanne Lockwood: dad and a go to work mum. But there's that point when your child falls
Joanne Lockwood: over and bangs their head or bangs their knee, who do they scream?
Joanne Lockwood: Do they scream for dad or do they scream for Mum? Often they scream for
Joanne Lockwood: Mum. So whatever happens, mum still becomes the
Joanne Lockwood: primary responsibility for keeping the child
Joanne Lockwood: alive. As fathers often,
Joanne Lockwood: even though they're committed, they don't have
Joanne Lockwood: the same relationship with their child, I don't think. And that's not a fault, it's
Joanne Lockwood: just a biological thing. I think I am seeing this
Sonia Pérez: changing quite a lot. I mean, not with everyone in every
Sonia Pérez: household. There's still a lot of traditionality in.
Sonia Pérez: But I can see that being a lot more involved.
Sonia Pérez: Probably 50, 50, sometimes even more. But yeah, I guess
Sonia Pérez: you still see a lot of the more traditional kind of thinking
Sonia Pérez: in life still. Yeah. When our children were young, I
Joanne Lockwood: was working all over the world. I worked for. Worked up in Scotland for a
Joanne Lockwood: year as well, near Glasgow.
Joanne Lockwood: And I missed out on a huge amount of our child's development at that time.
Joanne Lockwood: And we have. We had the luxury of. My wife was able
Joanne Lockwood: to stay at home a lot this time, so. Cause I was working and I
Joanne Lockwood: look back on it not with regret, but with a
Joanne Lockwood: certain sadness that I wasn't there for a lot of their lives. And they talk
Joanne Lockwood: about this, that and the other. I see photographs and they go, where was I?
Joanne Lockwood: And I work out and go, oh yeah, I was probably in Scotland. Oh yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I was probably in America or in Europe somewhere. And
Joanne Lockwood: so, yeah, we all trade something, don't we?
Sonia Pérez: Exactly, yeah. And I, I don't think there is still
Sonia Pérez: like a huge choice. I mean, when you look at the parental leave,
Sonia Pérez: I mean, moms get a lot more than that and
Sonia Pérez: it just kind of falls into the same stereotypes. I personally
Sonia Pérez: think if I have to make a choice,
Sonia Pérez: I'm going to choose my family. Because I know that
Sonia Pérez: in, well, five, 10, 20 years time,
Sonia Pérez: I'm not going to regret, you know, the, the meeting I didn't turn up to,
Sonia Pérez: the job that I didn't get or, you know, there's things like that. There's always
Sonia Pérez: going to be more of those. But family, there's only one. But I don't think
Sonia Pérez: everyone has that choice. As I say, like when, when we kind of expect
Sonia Pérez: dads to go back to work so soon. I mean, some of them might
Sonia Pérez: want to. I don't think everyone wants to. And that's the thing, the
Sonia Pérez: choice in the, in still many countries, UK being one of them
Sonia Pérez: is poor. Yeah, it is. We are at the End of the day,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe not. We're money driven, but we're money dependent, aren't we?
Joanne Lockwood: We have to pay the rent, put food on the table and if we can't,
Joanne Lockwood: our lives become, become sad. So money doesn't buy you happiness, but no,
Joanne Lockwood: money buys you sadness. And it's, it's trying to
Joanne Lockwood: find that middle ground between balancing your family and I,
Joanne Lockwood: I think I, I found myself making those choices to
Joanne Lockwood: keep the family alive. And then you just become, it
Joanne Lockwood: becomes what you do and then it's only when you, you know, I got into
Joanne Lockwood: my 50s, I look back and thought I want a different second half
Joanne Lockwood: of my life. I want, I want to do things differently and I, I want
Joanne Lockwood: to see my daughter or son and I want to be part of it. I,
Joanne Lockwood: my wife and I, we're kind of soul mates now. We spend all of our
Joanne Lockwood: time together and we become very co dependent on each other more than a mile
Joanne Lockwood: apart without pining. My
Joanne Lockwood: attitude to home life and family has changed completely during
Joanne Lockwood: my 50s. So yeah, I think we have to wake
Joanne Lockwood: up one day and go, what's really important to me? What do I really want?
Joanne Lockwood: And almost jettison all that BS of social
Joanne Lockwood: expectations. So that's the awakening that I had recently as
Sonia Pérez: well. I think. You know, you're told
Sonia Pérez: that, you know, to find happiness you must, you know, study
Sonia Pérez: hard so you can get a good job and then you get your good job
Sonia Pérez: and then you're supposed to marry and you're supposed to have children
Sonia Pérez: and you should, you know, go up in your career
Sonia Pérez: and at the end, I mean, it doesn't always bring you happiness.
Sonia Pérez: Happiness is so much more than that. You know, it's the little moments as
Sonia Pérez: well. And you find yourself like running someone else's
Sonia Pérez: face. I mean, some of the things may be things that you like, but you
Sonia Pérez: know, it's not essentials for happiness. And so yeah, that was, that was my
Sonia Pérez: awakening recently. Yeah, I'm privileged. I work for
Joanne Lockwood: myself and I have worked for myself since the late 90s. So I've, I've got,
Joanne Lockwood: even though I've had companies where I was responsible for people, still have,
Joanne Lockwood: I still, I was still top of my food chain so I could make
Joanne Lockwood: my own decisions about why I did when I did it. I was answerable to
Joanne Lockwood: the bank balance, but not answerable to people other than customers and clients.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's immense about freedom that I've experienced in my life and I think
Joanne Lockwood: now being able to have exercise that freedom, I often call
Joanne Lockwood: it a life, work balance rather than A work life balance because it's I live
Joanne Lockwood: and I use work to keep me living if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: rather than living to work. And I think maybe that comes
Joanne Lockwood: with age, maybe it just comes with maturity or just
Joanne Lockwood: having an epiphany and waking up one day and going, why am. I doing this
Sonia Pérez: exactly? Because, well, if you go through all the things that you've done
Sonia Pérez: your whole life, this is what you've learned that was the right thing to do.
Sonia Pérez: Because without that, you know, you're never going to find happiness.
Sonia Pérez: But you know, one day you just learn better because you've gone through the
Sonia Pérez: experiences. Yeah. People often say
Joanne Lockwood: to me, you know, what advice would you give your 10 year old self? And
Joanne Lockwood: I always say, well, I wouldn't give my 10 year old self any advice because
Joanne Lockwood: I've turned out okay, I'm cool. But you know, the key advice
Joanne Lockwood: would be don't start smoking and watch what you drink
Joanne Lockwood: and just don't sweat the small stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: But you look back on it, what advice would I give? And I think definitely
Joanne Lockwood: would be give more credence to family and less about work.
Joanne Lockwood: And then and try and think of a life work balance. Earlier in my life,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe that would probably be the only thing I would change is to enjoy my
Joanne Lockwood: family more because as you said, you can't
Joanne Lockwood: get that back. Once they've grown, you can't get that back. Sonia, it's been absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating talking to you. I've really enjoyed our conversation. If people
Joanne Lockwood: are listening to this, if you're listening to this right now, how can people get
Joanne Lockwood: a hold of you if they want to have a chat? Well, I'm in LinkedIn
Sonia Pérez: so I'll be more than happy to speak to anyone who wants to get in
Sonia Pérez: touch. And your LinkedIn profile is Sonia
Joanne Lockwood: Perez, is that right? If you search for you on there, yes. And
Joanne Lockwood: Perez is P E R E Z. Yeah. And Sonia. S O N I
Joanne Lockwood: A. I'll put, I'll put the details in the show notes.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. It's fascinating conversation. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Sonia Pérez: Yeah, me too, actually. Yeah. Thank you. As we
Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listeners, for lending your
Joanne Lockwood: ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.