WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.830 --> 00:01:18.790 Today is episode 170 with the 19 00:01:18.790 --> 00:01:22.190 title Turning Rejections Into Opportunities, 20 00:01:22.830 --> 00:01:26.270 and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome C Guz. 21 00:01:26.750 --> 00:01:30.630 C is a female entrepreneur and job seeker who has turned her 22 00:01:30.630 --> 00:01:34.229 own experiences with rejection into a mission to humanise 23 00:01:34.229 --> 00:01:37.710 recruitment and make the hiring process more inclusive 24 00:01:38.110 --> 00:01:41.870 for all. And when I asked C to describe her superpower, she said 25 00:01:42.270 --> 00:01:45.970 it is transforming setbacks into empowerment by 26 00:01:45.970 --> 00:01:49.810 advocating for inclusive recruitment practises that allow everyone 27 00:01:50.290 --> 00:01:54.170 to thrive. Hello, Si. Welcome to the show. Hello, 28 00:01:54.170 --> 00:01:58.130 Joanne. It's so nice to be here and so, so nice to be doing this 29 00:01:58.130 --> 00:02:01.970 with you. I'm. I'm glad I actually pushed record 30 00:02:01.970 --> 00:02:05.650 on this episode because we were chatting away, we were wasting all this fabulous 31 00:02:05.650 --> 00:02:09.090 material, so. Brilliant. So, yeah, we've got loads of stuff for our guests to listen 32 00:02:09.090 --> 00:02:12.860 to today, so, you see, you said when we were chatting 33 00:02:12.860 --> 00:02:16.860 away, you're in Turkey, is that right? Whereabouts in Turkey? 34 00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:20.700 Whereabouts in. I don't know it that well. I know Bodrum 35 00:02:20.700 --> 00:02:24.660 probably is probably about it. Currently in Istanbul, commonly known as, you 36 00:02:24.660 --> 00:02:28.660 know, the Constantinople, the city with two coasts. So that's where I was born 37 00:02:28.660 --> 00:02:32.620 and raised then. Wow. Because Turkey is a 38 00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:36.740 interesting country because it's a bit Mediterranean, it's almost a bit African, 39 00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:39.900 it's almost a bit Asian, almost a bit European. It's kind of on that 40 00:02:40.550 --> 00:02:44.510 really sort of strange gateway zone, isn't it? I'd 41 00:02:44.510 --> 00:02:48.470 say so, but I personally never found my belonging here. And 42 00:02:49.030 --> 00:02:52.950 that's also, you know, what eventually led me to, you know, seeking these global 43 00:02:52.950 --> 00:02:56.750 doors and opportunities. So, you know, like 44 00:02:56.750 --> 00:03:00.510 me, actually, you know, you faced rejections in your job 45 00:03:00.510 --> 00:03:04.390 search and so how did you turn those kind of rejections 46 00:03:04.390 --> 00:03:07.750 and channel those into kind of a An entrepreneurial spirit. 47 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:12.430 How do you humanise recruitment? Absolutely. That's a great question. Thank you 48 00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:16.430 so much. Accidentally, I think I've been studying the whole space for 49 00:03:16.430 --> 00:03:20.310 the last eight years and I initially didn't really mean to. I was 50 00:03:20.310 --> 00:03:23.750 a very young person, young professional, looking to get 51 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:27.590 opportunities, get the right mentorship. And then the last five 52 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:31.230 years for me has been really difficult because I got more than 13,000 53 00:03:31.230 --> 00:03:35.180 rejections. And that meant like slap on the 54 00:03:35.180 --> 00:03:38.580 wrist, a kick on the face. But that eventually 55 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:43.460 made me navigate a 10 month of unemployment period where 56 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:47.460 the financial insecurity was at an all time low, at an all time 57 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:51.420 high. And essentially I looked at everything that 58 00:03:51.420 --> 00:03:55.060 I was navigating and how degraded, you know, 59 00:03:55.060 --> 00:03:58.740 unqualified I felt. And it felt like as if I am 60 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:02.650 totally useless, as if I cannot achieve nothing. Um, 61 00:04:02.650 --> 00:04:06.610 and the job market was really like, you know, transforming when 62 00:04:06.610 --> 00:04:10.570 I was an undergraduate. And then when I graduated, it just became 63 00:04:10.570 --> 00:04:14.570 a whole chaos with the layoffs and, and the economy, inflations and 64 00:04:14.570 --> 00:04:18.370 everything. So in that 10 months, what I 65 00:04:18.370 --> 00:04:22.210 realised is, you know what? See, I said to myself, millions of people 66 00:04:22.210 --> 00:04:26.090 are going through the same thing today and you see a solution. 67 00:04:26.570 --> 00:04:30.570 If you do not act on this solution, then you're not responsible, 68 00:04:31.010 --> 00:04:34.690 you're not fulfilling your responsibility and you're, you know, you 69 00:04:35.250 --> 00:04:39.250 are not doing what it needs to be done. And if you don't 70 00:04:39.250 --> 00:04:42.890 do it, then no one will do it. And can you really live with yourself? 71 00:04:42.890 --> 00:04:46.690 You know, after five, 10 years, the solution does not exist and these people 72 00:04:46.690 --> 00:04:50.130 are going through the same chaos just because you were ignorant. 73 00:04:50.530 --> 00:04:54.330 And then that was a spark that basically fueled everything. And I said, 74 00:04:54.330 --> 00:04:58.010 you know what? This is not going to work. And event. Initially it was more 75 00:04:58.010 --> 00:05:01.850 the candid experience. My problem was because the inhumanity really, really 76 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:05.840 bothered. But then when I had to recruit for my own startup, I 77 00:05:05.840 --> 00:05:09.400 had 2,000 resumes in front of me. And I remember looking at those 78 00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:13.400 resumes and being like, how do I understand who 79 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:17.160 I should interview Those tell me nothing about who a person is. 80 00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:21.320 It was in 2019, I had to create my first resume and I 81 00:05:21.320 --> 00:05:24.920 remember looking at that one pager when it was done and I hated it. 82 00:05:25.320 --> 00:05:29.240 It was almost like, I'm going to destroy you. You're telling 83 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:33.000 nothing about me to that employer. You're not telling the value that I can 84 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.860 bring, how much of an asset can be. You're reducing 85 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:40.860 me to these data points that don't actually translate to business outcomes, 86 00:05:40.860 --> 00:05:44.700 to actionable data, and you also don't know the contextual 87 00:05:44.700 --> 00:05:48.700 information about how I was able to like achieve those goals in the 88 00:05:48.700 --> 00:05:52.340 organisations that I've supported in. So I've always had a problem with 89 00:05:52.340 --> 00:05:55.700 resume ever since I created one. And I also had these 90 00:05:55.700 --> 00:05:59.700 experiences where I was constantly rejected and ghosting is 91 00:05:59.780 --> 00:06:03.620 also like a must. So I found myself just holistically 92 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:07.720 picturing what is actually going on in each of those steps and 93 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:11.520 then actually living them and then seeing what would be a better 94 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.520 way so that we can actually build the bridge that should have existed, 95 00:06:15.520 --> 00:06:18.240 all of them. And that's really my motivation. 96 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.840 And I was lucky to meet my co founder who's a technical end of things 97 00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:26.520 and I'm so lucky because he has been the co founder that I always 98 00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:30.520 dreamed of that I would have. Yeah, great. What 99 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:34.480 you're saying that candidate experience sucks, doesn't it? I've never had a great 100 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.390 candid experience yet. I'm not saying never, but yet not the 101 00:06:38.390 --> 00:06:42.390 one that jumps out to me. But as you, as you pointed 102 00:06:42.390 --> 00:06:46.190 out there that you know, in your own startup you had a thousand, two thousand 103 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:50.310 applicants. It's hard to be specific and 104 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:54.110 give great feedback to 2000 people or whatever it is. And we think about large 105 00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:57.910 organisations who are hiring at scale, big, well known brands, they just, 106 00:06:57.910 --> 00:07:01.830 they just get inundated. So the first sift that, that first gatekeeping is almost 107 00:07:01.830 --> 00:07:05.220 like a instant rejection. You're lucky if you get that within an hour 108 00:07:05.860 --> 00:07:09.260 or you never get it at all. So how can we start thinking in a 109 00:07:09.260 --> 00:07:12.940 more candidate centric way? Because studies have 110 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:16.660 shown that often candidates are also clients and 111 00:07:16.660 --> 00:07:20.540 customers. So if we don't treat our candidates right, that can damage 112 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:24.540 our brand, can't it? Absolutely. I love how you put 113 00:07:24.540 --> 00:07:28.500 it. And there was a quote by a Forbes HR council member who says that 114 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:32.380 we have built our current recruitment tools to reject candidates and not to 115 00:07:32.380 --> 00:07:36.370 select them. And having been a recruiter, recruiter, like today for example, 116 00:07:36.370 --> 00:07:40.210 when I talk to recruiters and employers and asking if they're currently 117 00:07:40.210 --> 00:07:44.130 posting their jobs, they're telling me no and particularly they're not posting 118 00:07:44.130 --> 00:07:48.050 on LinkedIn. LinkedIn used to be an asset for those people, but now it's 119 00:07:48.050 --> 00:07:51.410 not because they're telling me, you know, if I do well, I'm just going to 120 00:07:51.410 --> 00:07:55.330 get spam applications and people who haven't read my job descriptions 121 00:07:55.410 --> 00:07:59.370 don't meet the qualification and I'm just going to be wasting my time there. When 122 00:07:59.370 --> 00:08:02.770 you're a recruiter, when you see an applicant tracking system, it's really true, like 123 00:08:03.320 --> 00:08:06.840 you're trying to get rid of the unqualified 124 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.800 pipeline as fast as possible. And that means a 125 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.640 lot of people are falling through the cracks. And again, like, the 126 00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:18.520 get rid doesn't mean that you're trying to sort of, you know, be 127 00:08:18.520 --> 00:08:22.320 inhumane in that process. But you're a recruiter. Like, imagine that 128 00:08:22.320 --> 00:08:26.240 you're going after or have two roles that you're hiring for. Let's say you're hiring 129 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:29.880 for a software engineer and a product manager. And if you're getting 500 130 00:08:29.880 --> 00:08:33.320 applications for each of them, what you're going to do, you're going to use filtering, 131 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.180 keyword search, boolean. That's what we were taught to do, 132 00:08:37.180 --> 00:08:41.060 that's how the systems work. But if I don't know how 133 00:08:41.060 --> 00:08:45.020 to format my resume, like I have experienced this and I've 134 00:08:45.020 --> 00:08:48.940 also seen this happening. Hiring managers look at a resume format of resume 135 00:08:48.940 --> 00:08:52.620 and they tell me, no, there is no way that I'm gonna allow that 136 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:56.500 candidate to be moved forward in the process. Resumes are not standardised. 137 00:08:56.660 --> 00:09:00.660 You know, like, without the standardisation, how do you compare, like apples to, 138 00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:04.580 you know, pears or apples to cherries? And essentially that's, that's what we're trying to 139 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:08.360 do. The only thing that we have been focusing on is actually the 140 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:12.000 actionable data part, which resumes were supposed to focus on, 141 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.760 but again, missing a lot of contextual information, behavioural information 142 00:09:16.160 --> 00:09:19.960 and hundreds of more data points that I can hear count. So coming back to 143 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:23.640 the employer brand, I mean, you go to a Glassdoor 144 00:09:23.640 --> 00:09:27.280 page and now candidates are talking about their interview experiences 145 00:09:27.280 --> 00:09:31.120 openly. If you've interviewed in a company, candidate has now become 146 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:34.970 a YouTuber and they're going to be publicly speaking about the experience, experiences that 147 00:09:34.970 --> 00:09:38.890 they just had. Your employers, first, sorry, employers 148 00:09:39.050 --> 00:09:42.770 are advocates for you, but then the second advocates for your brand 149 00:09:42.770 --> 00:09:46.770 identity. Your employer brand is candidates. And if you don't value 150 00:09:46.770 --> 00:09:50.770 those people, then they're going to talk about it. Let's say, you 151 00:09:50.770 --> 00:09:54.690 know, you're a McKinsey and you had this horrible experience with McKinsey 152 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:58.570 as a candidate, that candidate is going to be talking to their closest 153 00:09:58.570 --> 00:10:02.270 circle and now they are going to think twice when they're 154 00:10:02.510 --> 00:10:06.350 applying to McKinsey, no matter how good the brand is, because it really 155 00:10:06.350 --> 00:10:10.310 is based on trust. And if you don't build that trust effectively right 156 00:10:10.310 --> 00:10:14.190 in the beginning, if you don't value those candidates, then those candidates are not going 157 00:10:14.190 --> 00:10:17.830 to be applying to you. So you're going to be starting to miss out on 158 00:10:17.830 --> 00:10:21.630 the top talent in the market and your competitors would get them just because 159 00:10:21.630 --> 00:10:25.310 they Care just because they're creating those right. Candid experiences. 160 00:10:25.550 --> 00:10:29.470 And let me give you another data here. So the researchers looked at 161 00:10:29.470 --> 00:10:33.390 what really predicts retention and growth after those candidates are 162 00:10:33.390 --> 00:10:37.350 hired. And candidate experience is the core and you know, it's predicted 163 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:40.750 by 90% of HR people that actually says 164 00:10:40.910 --> 00:10:44.870 candidate experience is a core predictor of retention and growth. And if you 165 00:10:44.870 --> 00:10:48.750 don't nail that, then how can you expect to retain 166 00:10:48.750 --> 00:10:52.630 those, you know, candidates that you hire as employees? Like it's a way 167 00:10:52.630 --> 00:10:55.870 to build trust. It's to build a way to build that commitment, to show 168 00:10:56.540 --> 00:11:00.540 this is how it's like when you become an employee with us, when you're 169 00:11:00.540 --> 00:11:04.460 an employee with us. And if you're saying that this is how it looks 170 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:07.900 like and we won't care about you when you're an employee, then how as a 171 00:11:07.900 --> 00:11:11.900 potential employee, I can build a trust that you will train me with the 172 00:11:11.900 --> 00:11:15.820 right resources, that you will create the right environment for me to work in, 173 00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:19.820 that you will create growth opportunities for me, that I will be compensated 174 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:23.660 fairly. You're shaking all of these foundations 175 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:27.610 before they are even built if you don't have the right candidate experience. 176 00:11:28.090 --> 00:11:31.970 So that's essentially how it translates to, you know, the dignity influences 177 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:35.450 on your employer brand. You mentioned something in there, 178 00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:39.610 trust. And I'm, I'm a great advocate for trust has 179 00:11:39.610 --> 00:11:43.250 to be inherent in the process. We talk about psychological safety. There has to be 180 00:11:43.250 --> 00:11:46.330 psychological safety in the hiring process, in the candidate experience as well. 181 00:11:47.530 --> 00:11:51.450 The problem is you said this when you were talking about your own application 182 00:11:51.450 --> 00:11:54.810 journey. All Those thousands of CVs, thousands of applications you made, 183 00:11:55.940 --> 00:11:59.900 you got to the end in that process and you had zero faith or 184 00:11:59.900 --> 00:12:03.740 trust in the system. That almost like why should I 185 00:12:03.740 --> 00:12:07.660 bother submitting another application? Because you had been 186 00:12:07.660 --> 00:12:11.500 so bruised and damaged by the past experience, you think, well, 187 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:15.140 this is just pointless doing it. So your trust was at an all time low, 188 00:12:15.140 --> 00:12:18.580 that you were going to be given a fair hearing, treated fairly, whatever it was. 189 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:22.500 So as recruiters, whether you're agency, RPO or in house, 190 00:12:23.170 --> 00:12:27.090 how could you reach out and bring that trust in back into 191 00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:31.090 the process? So it really starts 192 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:35.010 with the first experience, like in your career space probably 193 00:12:35.010 --> 00:12:38.809 is the first place that the candidate is going to look at like a day 194 00:12:38.809 --> 00:12:42.450 in life, how the culture looks like. And you shouldn't use like 195 00:12:42.450 --> 00:12:46.410 buzzwords. It's not about for example, like leadership, but what that leadership 196 00:12:46.410 --> 00:12:50.050 means to you. For example, maybe you believe leadership should be shared 197 00:12:50.430 --> 00:12:54.270 or how, you know, how do you empower those people in your Organisations 198 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:58.110 and real time testimonials of them, like people hire people. 199 00:12:58.190 --> 00:13:01.950 That's something that we've forgotten in the process and we have to bring this back. 200 00:13:02.270 --> 00:13:06.069 And starting from that careers page, everything on the website has to be 201 00:13:06.069 --> 00:13:09.950 optimised. You have to position yourself as, you know, answering 202 00:13:10.030 --> 00:13:13.790 why I should work for you, why I should work with you, what 203 00:13:13.790 --> 00:13:16.990 exciting mission are you working on that I should get excited about? 204 00:13:17.900 --> 00:13:20.980 And then when I scroll through the caregivers page, I should be able to see 205 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:24.900 the growth opportunities that are waiting for me. And not only that, this is 206 00:13:24.900 --> 00:13:28.140 only done by so many, few employers. For example, I think 207 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:32.820 Johnson and Partners in the uk, I'm not 208 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:36.700 sure if I'm pronouncing their name correctly, but they're a retail brand and 209 00:13:36.700 --> 00:13:40.540 they have been the most transparent organisation that 210 00:13:40.540 --> 00:13:44.420 basically said, these are the stages that are waiting for you, these are the kind 211 00:13:44.420 --> 00:13:47.460 of questions that you will be asked and in each step, this is the person 212 00:13:47.460 --> 00:13:50.880 you will be speaking to. And to succeed, these are the things that we will 213 00:13:50.880 --> 00:13:54.760 be looking out for. Now you're prepared, but many of the interviews 214 00:13:54.760 --> 00:13:58.520 don't prepare organisations and candidates for this. So 215 00:13:58.680 --> 00:14:02.640 candidates don't have the data. Like you get an interview request. Why 216 00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:05.720 do you want to talk to me? Is this a first hiring manager interview? Is 217 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.560 a recruiter going to be talking to me like, what am I asked to, like, 218 00:14:09.560 --> 00:14:13.360 answer? Am I asked to just, you know, participate in a live case 219 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.480 study that I don't know nothing about and then I find out on the spot 220 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.220 and then I'm asked to say submit something in an hour and I know that's 221 00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:23.860 just impossible. So candidates are set to fail, almost 222 00:14:24.020 --> 00:14:28.020 like you're setting your candidates to fail, which is so ironic. 223 00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:31.900 And then the job description, like, the job description is not only something 224 00:14:31.900 --> 00:14:35.580 that shows what the day to day looks like and what you 225 00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:39.300 expect from that candidate, from that potential employee to achieve, but 226 00:14:39.300 --> 00:14:43.300 also a way to position how it is like to work for 227 00:14:43.300 --> 00:14:46.750 you. Like the mission that you're passionate about, the impact that you've 228 00:14:46.750 --> 00:14:50.710 created. How many organisations have you helped? You know, for example, 229 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:54.710 for us it's candidate experiences, it's the brands that we're able to help 230 00:14:54.710 --> 00:14:57.750 them humanise recruitment. Our change makers, our partners, 231 00:14:58.550 --> 00:15:02.550 show how that narrative looks like, like give them an insider 232 00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:06.310 perspective. You know something that's really ironic, when I got those 233 00:15:06.310 --> 00:15:09.990 2,000 resumes as a startup, as a recruiter for the first time, in my first 234 00:15:09.990 --> 00:15:13.540 startup, we had an employer brand 235 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:17.500 before the product itself, before an mvp, we were working from Five different 236 00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:21.060 time zones. It was, it was a mess. But the way that we 237 00:15:21.060 --> 00:15:24.180 positioned our vision resonated so deeply with people 238 00:15:25.060 --> 00:15:28.660 that they went on and apply and that was not it. After they 239 00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:32.660 applied, I actually had a 20% like of the people filling out 240 00:15:32.660 --> 00:15:36.580 an eight section form that I have prepared to be able to assess 241 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:40.180 candidates. And that process look entirely different from any of the 242 00:15:40.180 --> 00:15:43.820 interview processes that I've been to because I couldn't find any of those 243 00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:47.540 answers in the resumes. Then more, you know, around 244 00:15:47.540 --> 00:15:51.540 200 people actually went on and completed that. And one person gave me 245 00:15:51.540 --> 00:15:55.420 this feedback that it actually took them four hours to complete that form. 246 00:15:55.660 --> 00:15:59.460 And the reason is it's not because it was that long, but it's because 247 00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:03.300 people were not used to being given that space, that 248 00:16:03.300 --> 00:16:06.930 opportunity. The eight section forum looked like, okay, like 249 00:16:07.090 --> 00:16:11.090 I see that you're a current student or a mid level, like professional, but what 250 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:15.050 do you want to do? Like it was more reflective. How can 251 00:16:15.050 --> 00:16:19.050 I support you? What are the areas that you want to grow in? What 252 00:16:19.050 --> 00:16:22.770 are your skill sets like? You know, having people break down 253 00:16:22.770 --> 00:16:26.610 themselves as a spot and it was a reflective opportunity for them that 254 00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:30.650 many of those, you know, people who worked with me were able to understand what 255 00:16:30.650 --> 00:16:34.230 kind of a career that they wanted to pursue. And I'm going to tell this 256 00:16:34.230 --> 00:16:38.030 as a recruiter. Majority of the people, especially juniors 257 00:16:38.030 --> 00:16:42.030 and even middles, they don't know what they want. And 258 00:16:42.030 --> 00:16:45.990 it's your opportunity to help them reflect to, you know, have 259 00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:49.550 a more coaching style of interview where they're able to understand 260 00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:53.710 this because then you hire them and then they realise that job is not right 261 00:16:53.710 --> 00:16:57.310 for them. So help them understand. We treated those 262 00:16:57.310 --> 00:17:01.310 interview processes as transactional and as an interrogation, you know, 263 00:17:01.390 --> 00:17:04.570 sort of, you know, model where the hierarchy is always, 264 00:17:05.130 --> 00:17:08.530 I as a recruiter have, you know, the upper hand until the 265 00:17:08.530 --> 00:17:12.170 candidate gets to the point of salary and then things change. But 266 00:17:12.250 --> 00:17:16.090 it is a partnership. I, as a recruiter am assessing 267 00:17:16.090 --> 00:17:19.850 a potential employee that I should be excited for the hiring 268 00:17:19.850 --> 00:17:23.850 manager that I'm supporting to, you know, to be working with. I am 269 00:17:23.850 --> 00:17:27.730 assessing that fit. And as a recruiter, focusing on a strategy, the 270 00:17:27.730 --> 00:17:31.330 more you work with that hiring manager, if you're for example, not the more that 271 00:17:31.330 --> 00:17:35.150 you understand their expectations, the more you understand what kind of a 272 00:17:35.310 --> 00:17:39.150 leader, a mentor that person would be. So now you're hiring their report. 273 00:17:40.030 --> 00:17:43.870 Everything really is based on that human connection. And then we're trying 274 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:47.910 to remove those human loops from the process and then automate 275 00:17:47.910 --> 00:17:51.710 them so humans are not able to make the right hiring decisions. How 276 00:17:51.790 --> 00:17:55.630 can AI make the right hiring decisions if you remove human from the 277 00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:59.550 process? So, long story short, it's really about creating that 278 00:17:59.550 --> 00:18:03.430 insider perspective. How is it like working for your 279 00:18:03.590 --> 00:18:06.790 employer, working for your organisation? And as a recruiter, 280 00:18:08.310 --> 00:18:12.270 how has your experience been like? All these things are very, 281 00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:16.230 very simple and easy to do. It takes a minute to 282 00:18:16.230 --> 00:18:20.230 add that something in, but it makes all the difference. And candidates really feel like 283 00:18:20.550 --> 00:18:24.510 there is a human behind the keyboard who will be assessing their 284 00:18:24.510 --> 00:18:28.480 application. Going back to what you're saying 285 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.280 there about you get the resume, the CV in and you're trying to extract 286 00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:36.120 this data and you're saying it's not geared up to actually 287 00:18:36.120 --> 00:18:40.080 give you the soul or the personality or the heart of that individual, which is 288 00:18:40.080 --> 00:18:43.920 what we really ideally want to be. Hiring people, not paper, 289 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.920 not numbers. I always think about the CV is very historical. 290 00:18:48.560 --> 00:18:51.840 It's a Wikipedia. It's not saying anything about you. 291 00:18:53.210 --> 00:18:56.770 We've kind of evolved the CV to be this master document of my life. This 292 00:18:56.770 --> 00:19:00.650 is what I've done. I'm a great believer in not how 293 00:19:00.650 --> 00:19:04.650 did you questions or what have you done questions. It's what would 294 00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:08.410 you do? How would you approach this? Or what's your 295 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:12.170 thinking behind this scenario? Which the CV doesn't show you? 296 00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:15.690 Which is why a lot more modern recruitment practises 297 00:19:16.810 --> 00:19:20.770 anonymizing. They're using workplace samples, they're using five or six how 298 00:19:20.770 --> 00:19:24.650 would you questions which actually require more effort from the candidate 299 00:19:24.650 --> 00:19:28.610 because they can't just bombard you with their CV on 300 00:19:28.610 --> 00:19:31.330 auto, they have to actually look at these questions now. 301 00:19:32.530 --> 00:19:36.130 And that can actually filter candidates out because. Oh, that's too difficult. That's too difficult. 302 00:19:36.610 --> 00:19:39.810 But if you actually put the effort into crafting that great 303 00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:44.770 workplace sample, how would you tackle this challenging situation? How would 304 00:19:44.770 --> 00:19:48.730 you tackle the data centre just gone down and you've 305 00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:52.210 got customers screaming at you. How would you handle that situation? What would you do 306 00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:56.130 first? That's for getting into the mindset of the 307 00:19:56.130 --> 00:19:59.970 candidate and then we can see what a valuable resource they would be in a 308 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:03.810 crisis, in a. In a team environment, what their personality 309 00:20:03.810 --> 00:20:07.770 is, isn't it? That's what we want to find out. I love that. And that 310 00:20:07.770 --> 00:20:11.690 made me. That brings me to this. Like psychometric assessments that enterprises 311 00:20:11.690 --> 00:20:15.440 leverage really heavily and then cannot feel 312 00:20:15.760 --> 00:20:19.680 insecure at that point because they're thinking there is a 313 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.280 behavioural example that they're asking to answer. For example, you know, your 314 00:20:23.280 --> 00:20:26.880 colleague just stole something from the office, what would you do? And then there Are 315 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.800 like four different like, answers to that. Like, do you protect 316 00:20:30.800 --> 00:20:34.640 your, you know, colleague because they're your colleague and you 317 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.480 stand with them? Do you report that to the hr? 318 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.990 Do you, like, ask them to, you know, return that? 319 00:20:42.870 --> 00:20:46.470 All of these things say something about your behavioural characteristics, your 320 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:50.350 personality. But these tests are not, 321 00:20:50.350 --> 00:20:54.270 you know, leveraged in a way that creates psychological safety for 322 00:20:54.270 --> 00:20:57.870 a candidate. Because you're standing in front of that screen and you're thinking to 323 00:20:57.870 --> 00:21:01.670 yourself, what is the right answer? Like, because there are 324 00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:05.550 different right answers in that particular situation. Maybe the employer is trying to 325 00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:09.550 assess your loyalty there, maybe they're looking for your, like, work 326 00:21:09.550 --> 00:21:13.070 ethics. If you're assessing loyalty, then you should ideally support 327 00:21:13.310 --> 00:21:16.910 your colleague who stole something from the organisation. But from the business 328 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:20.790 perspective you shouldn't do that, but you don't know what they're assessing. 329 00:21:20.790 --> 00:21:24.750 So the psychological safety, I think is, is really making things difficult 330 00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:28.630 for the candidate. Like, I understand that I'm being assessed right now, but what 331 00:21:28.630 --> 00:21:32.630 are you really looking to get from me? Like, what is it 332 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:36.410 that you're really assessing? And I understand all these like, 333 00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:40.170 cheating measures and sort of really trying to create an unbiased 334 00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:44.170 environment from a psychological experimenting perspective. And that's where we took these 335 00:21:44.170 --> 00:21:47.810 like, studies from. Essentially all these psychometric assessment 336 00:21:47.890 --> 00:21:51.770 softwares that you see now, they were one psychological experiments and 337 00:21:51.770 --> 00:21:55.490 essentially we learned from that data and now we basically productize 338 00:21:55.490 --> 00:21:59.490 them. But I think that candidates are not feeling safe with that and it's, 339 00:21:59.490 --> 00:22:03.350 it's, it's not happening. I think it's a bit like 340 00:22:03.430 --> 00:22:06.230 when you use ChatGPT or an AI system. 341 00:22:07.270 --> 00:22:10.750 What you do at the beginning is you say you are an 342 00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:13.750 expert this and your role is to design that. 343 00:22:14.870 --> 00:22:17.830 When you do the psychometric test is you think, well, what am I applying for? 344 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:21.950 I'm applying to be a programmer, a 345 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:25.670 coder, therefore I'm going to put my head in that 346 00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:29.590 mode. If you're hiring me to be head of security or HR or audit, 347 00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:33.100 then I'll have a different answer because, you know, you want me to grass up 348 00:22:33.100 --> 00:22:37.060 your teammate. You want to be ultimately security focused, company focused, but 349 00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.780 if you're in a small team, you want this person to maybe talk to the 350 00:22:40.780 --> 00:22:44.780 person that's committed the wrongdoing and say, look, you really shouldn't have done that. I 351 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:48.300 don't want to be the one that grasses you up. Why don't you go and 352 00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:52.140 hand it back or be honest yourself and coach them into that 353 00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.860 without colluding. So you want a different approach, so you just Got to put your 354 00:22:55.860 --> 00:22:59.700 head in the mind of, of the job you're applying for. And 355 00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:03.380 you could. People say you can't cheat these systems, but I think if you've, if 356 00:23:03.380 --> 00:23:07.100 you've got enough intelligence, you can move your brain into a space 357 00:23:07.420 --> 00:23:10.860 where you're thinking and acting in the model. You have to act. So 358 00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:15.460 yeah, and I think what we're doing is we're almost forcing people to act and 359 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:19.140 we talk about bring your whole self to work. You don't actually want my whole 360 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.460 self. You want this narrow bit that fits into your definition. 361 00:23:23.010 --> 00:23:26.650 Yeah, fully agree. And like recruiters are 362 00:23:26.650 --> 00:23:30.290 essentially like prone to look for red flags rather than, 363 00:23:30.610 --> 00:23:34.210 you know, the things that they like about the candidate that 364 00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:36.450 helps them move to, to the next stage. 365 00:23:38.290 --> 00:23:42.170 It's down to risk though, isn't it, the recruiter, if it can. If the 366 00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:46.010 recruiter's got two good candidates, it will come down to which 367 00:23:46.010 --> 00:23:49.940 one am I most comfortable, which one is least risk. And that is 368 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:53.340 often a bias. It's that gut feel, it's that spider sense. 369 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:57.580 Oh, I just feel it. You rub the paper, you go, 370 00:23:58.060 --> 00:24:01.820 this candidate just feels better to me. For whatever reason, all those 371 00:24:01.820 --> 00:24:05.420 biases come out, don't they? So we have to recognise that 372 00:24:06.140 --> 00:24:10.060 that personal bias has a huge influence on two identical 373 00:24:10.060 --> 00:24:14.020 candidates or even two candidates that are very close. You make 374 00:24:14.020 --> 00:24:17.920 a, I can't take the risk. If I hire this person, it goes wrong, 375 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.960 people are gonna blame me. People are self 376 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.680 protectionist as well. It's human nature. Yeah, yeah. But I think 377 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.560 that again, like it comes back to what we evolve 378 00:24:29.560 --> 00:24:33.040 recruitment into. And that has become today, unfortunately, 379 00:24:33.040 --> 00:24:36.760 rejecting candidates because like if 500 people are 380 00:24:36.760 --> 00:24:40.480 applying, you have one opening. It's really, 381 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.480 really, really difficult to get to that top 10 when you're 382 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.400 able to like say, okay, now it's the top five and top two. 383 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.120 And then you also have to like have candidates, you have to, you know, keep 384 00:24:52.120 --> 00:24:55.960 them waiting on the sign because maybe someone will reject the offer. And now you 385 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.520 have to be like thinking about your next move as a recruiter. But I think 386 00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:03.480 like recruitment has been evolved in a way 387 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.480 that something that this candidate does is right and wrong. But I think that 388 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.910 it should be focusing on the differences, like how would this 389 00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:14.590 candidate think about the situation? And maybe their way of thinking 390 00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:18.550 is particularly right for a company that is in a, in a different stage 391 00:25:18.550 --> 00:25:22.550 than ours. And that's completely okay. If you think that is, then, then you know, 392 00:25:22.550 --> 00:25:26.430 you have to give them the feedback and that would be really helpful to 393 00:25:26.430 --> 00:25:29.590 them so that they can go out and seek the right jobs for them. But 394 00:25:29.590 --> 00:25:33.590 going back to iOS, you need data. There is 395 00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:37.430 nothing in the process that is removing those biases. Like 396 00:25:38.470 --> 00:25:42.350 we have software today that removes for 397 00:25:42.350 --> 00:25:46.230 example, like the names of the candidates and like the contact information. 398 00:25:46.790 --> 00:25:50.790 We had the DEI software that focused on reporting measures. 399 00:25:50.790 --> 00:25:54.510 So it was more like do you want more females in your organisation now or 400 00:25:54.510 --> 00:25:58.510 do you want more diversity? And diversity was diversity in a way that it was 401 00:25:58.510 --> 00:26:02.310