C. Guz: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 170 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title Turning Rejections Into Opportunities,
Joanne Lockwood: and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome C Guz.
Joanne Lockwood: C is a female entrepreneur and job seeker who has turned her
Joanne Lockwood: own experiences with rejection into a mission to humanise
Joanne Lockwood: recruitment and make the hiring process more inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: for all. And when I asked C to describe her superpower, she said
Joanne Lockwood: it is transforming setbacks into empowerment by
Joanne Lockwood: advocating for inclusive recruitment practises that allow everyone
Joanne Lockwood: to thrive. Hello, Si. Welcome to the show. Hello,
C. Guz: Joanne. It's so nice to be here and so, so nice to be doing this
C. Guz: with you. I'm. I'm glad I actually pushed record
Joanne Lockwood: on this episode because we were chatting away, we were wasting all this fabulous
Joanne Lockwood: material, so. Brilliant. So, yeah, we've got loads of stuff for our guests to listen
Joanne Lockwood: to today, so, you see, you said when we were chatting
Joanne Lockwood: away, you're in Turkey, is that right? Whereabouts in Turkey?
Joanne Lockwood: Whereabouts in. I don't know it that well. I know Bodrum
Joanne Lockwood: probably is probably about it. Currently in Istanbul, commonly known as, you
C. Guz: know, the Constantinople, the city with two coasts. So that's where I was born
C. Guz: and raised then. Wow. Because Turkey is a
Joanne Lockwood: interesting country because it's a bit Mediterranean, it's almost a bit African,
Joanne Lockwood: it's almost a bit Asian, almost a bit European. It's kind of on that
Joanne Lockwood: really sort of strange gateway zone, isn't it? I'd
C. Guz: say so, but I personally never found my belonging here. And
C. Guz: that's also, you know, what eventually led me to, you know, seeking these global
C. Guz: doors and opportunities. So, you know, like
Joanne Lockwood: me, actually, you know, you faced rejections in your job
Joanne Lockwood: search and so how did you turn those kind of rejections
Joanne Lockwood: and channel those into kind of a An entrepreneurial spirit.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you humanise recruitment? Absolutely. That's a great question. Thank you
C. Guz: so much. Accidentally, I think I've been studying the whole space for
C. Guz: the last eight years and I initially didn't really mean to. I was
C. Guz: a very young person, young professional, looking to get
C. Guz: opportunities, get the right mentorship. And then the last five
C. Guz: years for me has been really difficult because I got more than 13,000
C. Guz: rejections. And that meant like slap on the
C. Guz: wrist, a kick on the face. But that eventually
C. Guz: made me navigate a 10 month of unemployment period where
C. Guz: the financial insecurity was at an all time low, at an all time
C. Guz: high. And essentially I looked at everything that
C. Guz: I was navigating and how degraded, you know,
C. Guz: unqualified I felt. And it felt like as if I am
C. Guz: totally useless, as if I cannot achieve nothing. Um,
C. Guz: and the job market was really like, you know, transforming when
C. Guz: I was an undergraduate. And then when I graduated, it just became
C. Guz: a whole chaos with the layoffs and, and the economy, inflations and
C. Guz: everything. So in that 10 months, what I
C. Guz: realised is, you know what? See, I said to myself, millions of people
C. Guz: are going through the same thing today and you see a solution.
C. Guz: If you do not act on this solution, then you're not responsible,
C. Guz: you're not fulfilling your responsibility and you're, you know, you
C. Guz: are not doing what it needs to be done. And if you don't
C. Guz: do it, then no one will do it. And can you really live with yourself?
C. Guz: You know, after five, 10 years, the solution does not exist and these people
C. Guz: are going through the same chaos just because you were ignorant.
C. Guz: And then that was a spark that basically fueled everything. And I said,
C. Guz: you know what? This is not going to work. And event. Initially it was more
C. Guz: the candid experience. My problem was because the inhumanity really, really
C. Guz: bothered. But then when I had to recruit for my own startup, I
C. Guz: had 2,000 resumes in front of me. And I remember looking at those
C. Guz: resumes and being like, how do I understand who
C. Guz: I should interview Those tell me nothing about who a person is.
C. Guz: It was in 2019, I had to create my first resume and I
C. Guz: remember looking at that one pager when it was done and I hated it.
C. Guz: It was almost like, I'm going to destroy you. You're telling
C. Guz: nothing about me to that employer. You're not telling the value that I can
C. Guz: bring, how much of an asset can be. You're reducing
C. Guz: me to these data points that don't actually translate to business outcomes,
C. Guz: to actionable data, and you also don't know the contextual
C. Guz: information about how I was able to like achieve those goals in the
C. Guz: organisations that I've supported in. So I've always had a problem with
C. Guz: resume ever since I created one. And I also had these
C. Guz: experiences where I was constantly rejected and ghosting is
C. Guz: also like a must. So I found myself just holistically
C. Guz: picturing what is actually going on in each of those steps and
C. Guz: then actually living them and then seeing what would be a better
C. Guz: way so that we can actually build the bridge that should have existed,
C. Guz: all of them. And that's really my motivation.
C. Guz: And I was lucky to meet my co founder who's a technical end of things
C. Guz: and I'm so lucky because he has been the co founder that I always
C. Guz: dreamed of that I would have. Yeah, great. What
Joanne Lockwood: you're saying that candidate experience sucks, doesn't it? I've never had a great
Joanne Lockwood: candid experience yet. I'm not saying never, but yet not the
Joanne Lockwood: one that jumps out to me. But as you, as you pointed
Joanne Lockwood: out there that you know, in your own startup you had a thousand, two thousand
Joanne Lockwood: applicants. It's hard to be specific and
Joanne Lockwood: give great feedback to 2000 people or whatever it is. And we think about large
Joanne Lockwood: organisations who are hiring at scale, big, well known brands, they just,
Joanne Lockwood: they just get inundated. So the first sift that, that first gatekeeping is almost
Joanne Lockwood: like a instant rejection. You're lucky if you get that within an hour
Joanne Lockwood: or you never get it at all. So how can we start thinking in a
Joanne Lockwood: more candidate centric way? Because studies have
Joanne Lockwood: shown that often candidates are also clients and
Joanne Lockwood: customers. So if we don't treat our candidates right, that can damage
Joanne Lockwood: our brand, can't it? Absolutely. I love how you put
C. Guz: it. And there was a quote by a Forbes HR council member who says that
C. Guz: we have built our current recruitment tools to reject candidates and not to
C. Guz: select them. And having been a recruiter, recruiter, like today for example,
C. Guz: when I talk to recruiters and employers and asking if they're currently
C. Guz: posting their jobs, they're telling me no and particularly they're not posting
C. Guz: on LinkedIn. LinkedIn used to be an asset for those people, but now it's
C. Guz: not because they're telling me, you know, if I do well, I'm just going to
C. Guz: get spam applications and people who haven't read my job descriptions
C. Guz: don't meet the qualification and I'm just going to be wasting my time there. When
C. Guz: you're a recruiter, when you see an applicant tracking system, it's really true, like
C. Guz: you're trying to get rid of the unqualified
C. Guz: pipeline as fast as possible. And that means a
C. Guz: lot of people are falling through the cracks. And again, like, the
C. Guz: get rid doesn't mean that you're trying to sort of, you know, be
C. Guz: inhumane in that process. But you're a recruiter. Like, imagine that
C. Guz: you're going after or have two roles that you're hiring for. Let's say you're hiring
C. Guz: for a software engineer and a product manager. And if you're getting 500
C. Guz: applications for each of them, what you're going to do, you're going to use filtering,
C. Guz: keyword search, boolean. That's what we were taught to do,
C. Guz: that's how the systems work. But if I don't know how
C. Guz: to format my resume, like I have experienced this and I've
C. Guz: also seen this happening. Hiring managers look at a resume format of resume
C. Guz: and they tell me, no, there is no way that I'm gonna allow that
C. Guz: candidate to be moved forward in the process. Resumes are not standardised.
C. Guz: You know, like, without the standardisation, how do you compare, like apples to,
C. Guz: you know, pears or apples to cherries? And essentially that's, that's what we're trying to
C. Guz: do. The only thing that we have been focusing on is actually the
C. Guz: actionable data part, which resumes were supposed to focus on,
C. Guz: but again, missing a lot of contextual information, behavioural information
C. Guz: and hundreds of more data points that I can hear count. So coming back to
C. Guz: the employer brand, I mean, you go to a Glassdoor
C. Guz: page and now candidates are talking about their interview experiences
C. Guz: openly. If you've interviewed in a company, candidate has now become
C. Guz: a YouTuber and they're going to be publicly speaking about the experience, experiences that
C. Guz: they just had. Your employers, first, sorry, employers
C. Guz: are advocates for you, but then the second advocates for your brand
C. Guz: identity. Your employer brand is candidates. And if you don't value
C. Guz: those people, then they're going to talk about it. Let's say, you
C. Guz: know, you're a McKinsey and you had this horrible experience with McKinsey
C. Guz: as a candidate, that candidate is going to be talking to their closest
C. Guz: circle and now they are going to think twice when they're
C. Guz: applying to McKinsey, no matter how good the brand is, because it really
C. Guz: is based on trust. And if you don't build that trust effectively right
C. Guz: in the beginning, if you don't value those candidates, then those candidates are not going
C. Guz: to be applying to you. So you're going to be starting to miss out on
C. Guz: the top talent in the market and your competitors would get them just because
C. Guz: they Care just because they're creating those right. Candid experiences.
C. Guz: And let me give you another data here. So the researchers looked at
C. Guz: what really predicts retention and growth after those candidates are
C. Guz: hired. And candidate experience is the core and you know, it's predicted
C. Guz: by 90% of HR people that actually says
C. Guz: candidate experience is a core predictor of retention and growth. And if you
C. Guz: don't nail that, then how can you expect to retain
C. Guz: those, you know, candidates that you hire as employees? Like it's a way
C. Guz: to build trust. It's to build a way to build that commitment, to show
C. Guz: this is how it's like when you become an employee with us, when you're
C. Guz: an employee with us. And if you're saying that this is how it looks
C. Guz: like and we won't care about you when you're an employee, then how as a
C. Guz: potential employee, I can build a trust that you will train me with the
C. Guz: right resources, that you will create the right environment for me to work in,
C. Guz: that you will create growth opportunities for me, that I will be compensated
C. Guz: fairly. You're shaking all of these foundations
C. Guz: before they are even built if you don't have the right candidate experience.
C. Guz: So that's essentially how it translates to, you know, the dignity influences
C. Guz: on your employer brand. You mentioned something in there,
Joanne Lockwood: trust. And I'm, I'm a great advocate for trust has
Joanne Lockwood: to be inherent in the process. We talk about psychological safety. There has to be
Joanne Lockwood: psychological safety in the hiring process, in the candidate experience as well.
Joanne Lockwood: The problem is you said this when you were talking about your own application
Joanne Lockwood: journey. All Those thousands of CVs, thousands of applications you made,
Joanne Lockwood: you got to the end in that process and you had zero faith or
Joanne Lockwood: trust in the system. That almost like why should I
Joanne Lockwood: bother submitting another application? Because you had been
Joanne Lockwood: so bruised and damaged by the past experience, you think, well,
Joanne Lockwood: this is just pointless doing it. So your trust was at an all time low,
Joanne Lockwood: that you were going to be given a fair hearing, treated fairly, whatever it was.
Joanne Lockwood: So as recruiters, whether you're agency, RPO or in house,
Joanne Lockwood: how could you reach out and bring that trust in back into
Joanne Lockwood: the process? So it really starts
C. Guz: with the first experience, like in your career space probably
C. Guz: is the first place that the candidate is going to look at like a day
C. Guz: in life, how the culture looks like. And you shouldn't use like
C. Guz: buzzwords. It's not about for example, like leadership, but what that leadership
C. Guz: means to you. For example, maybe you believe leadership should be shared
C. Guz: or how, you know, how do you empower those people in your Organisations
C. Guz: and real time testimonials of them, like people hire people.
C. Guz: That's something that we've forgotten in the process and we have to bring this back.
C. Guz: And starting from that careers page, everything on the website has to be
C. Guz: optimised. You have to position yourself as, you know, answering
C. Guz: why I should work for you, why I should work with you, what
C. Guz: exciting mission are you working on that I should get excited about?
C. Guz: And then when I scroll through the caregivers page, I should be able to see
C. Guz: the growth opportunities that are waiting for me. And not only that, this is
C. Guz: only done by so many, few employers. For example, I think
C. Guz: Johnson and Partners in the uk, I'm not
C. Guz: sure if I'm pronouncing their name correctly, but they're a retail brand and
C. Guz: they have been the most transparent organisation that
C. Guz: basically said, these are the stages that are waiting for you, these are the kind
C. Guz: of questions that you will be asked and in each step, this is the person
C. Guz: you will be speaking to. And to succeed, these are the things that we will
C. Guz: be looking out for. Now you're prepared, but many of the interviews
C. Guz: don't prepare organisations and candidates for this. So
C. Guz: candidates don't have the data. Like you get an interview request. Why
C. Guz: do you want to talk to me? Is this a first hiring manager interview? Is
C. Guz: a recruiter going to be talking to me like, what am I asked to, like,
C. Guz: answer? Am I asked to just, you know, participate in a live case
C. Guz: study that I don't know nothing about and then I find out on the spot
C. Guz: and then I'm asked to say submit something in an hour and I know that's
C. Guz: just impossible. So candidates are set to fail, almost
C. Guz: like you're setting your candidates to fail, which is so ironic.
C. Guz: And then the job description, like, the job description is not only something
C. Guz: that shows what the day to day looks like and what you
C. Guz: expect from that candidate, from that potential employee to achieve, but
C. Guz: also a way to position how it is like to work for
C. Guz: you. Like the mission that you're passionate about, the impact that you've
C. Guz: created. How many organisations have you helped? You know, for example,
C. Guz: for us it's candidate experiences, it's the brands that we're able to help
C. Guz: them humanise recruitment. Our change makers, our partners,
C. Guz: show how that narrative looks like, like give them an insider
C. Guz: perspective. You know something that's really ironic, when I got those
C. Guz: 2,000 resumes as a startup, as a recruiter for the first time, in my first
C. Guz: startup, we had an employer brand
C. Guz: before the product itself, before an mvp, we were working from Five different
C. Guz: time zones. It was, it was a mess. But the way that we
C. Guz: positioned our vision resonated so deeply with people
C. Guz: that they went on and apply and that was not it. After they
C. Guz: applied, I actually had a 20% like of the people filling out
C. Guz: an eight section form that I have prepared to be able to assess
C. Guz: candidates. And that process look entirely different from any of the
C. Guz: interview processes that I've been to because I couldn't find any of those
C. Guz: answers in the resumes. Then more, you know, around
C. Guz: 200 people actually went on and completed that. And one person gave me
C. Guz: this feedback that it actually took them four hours to complete that form.
C. Guz: And the reason is it's not because it was that long, but it's because
C. Guz: people were not used to being given that space, that
C. Guz: opportunity. The eight section forum looked like, okay, like
C. Guz: I see that you're a current student or a mid level, like professional, but what
C. Guz: do you want to do? Like it was more reflective. How can
C. Guz: I support you? What are the areas that you want to grow in? What
C. Guz: are your skill sets like? You know, having people break down
C. Guz: themselves as a spot and it was a reflective opportunity for them that
C. Guz: many of those, you know, people who worked with me were able to understand what
C. Guz: kind of a career that they wanted to pursue. And I'm going to tell this
C. Guz: as a recruiter. Majority of the people, especially juniors
C. Guz: and even middles, they don't know what they want. And
C. Guz: it's your opportunity to help them reflect to, you know, have
C. Guz: a more coaching style of interview where they're able to understand
C. Guz: this because then you hire them and then they realise that job is not right
C. Guz: for them. So help them understand. We treated those
C. Guz: interview processes as transactional and as an interrogation, you know,
C. Guz: sort of, you know, model where the hierarchy is always,
C. Guz: I as a recruiter have, you know, the upper hand until the
C. Guz: candidate gets to the point of salary and then things change. But
C. Guz: it is a partnership. I, as a recruiter am assessing
C. Guz: a potential employee that I should be excited for the hiring
C. Guz: manager that I'm supporting to, you know, to be working with. I am
C. Guz: assessing that fit. And as a recruiter, focusing on a strategy, the
C. Guz: more you work with that hiring manager, if you're for example, not the more that
C. Guz: you understand their expectations, the more you understand what kind of a
C. Guz: leader, a mentor that person would be. So now you're hiring their report.
C. Guz: Everything really is based on that human connection. And then we're trying
C. Guz: to remove those human loops from the process and then automate
C. Guz: them so humans are not able to make the right hiring decisions. How
C. Guz: can AI make the right hiring decisions if you remove human from the
C. Guz: process? So, long story short, it's really about creating that
C. Guz: insider perspective. How is it like working for your
C. Guz: employer, working for your organisation? And as a recruiter,
C. Guz: how has your experience been like? All these things are very,
C. Guz: very simple and easy to do. It takes a minute to
C. Guz: add that something in, but it makes all the difference. And candidates really feel like
C. Guz: there is a human behind the keyboard who will be assessing their
C. Guz: application. Going back to what you're saying
Joanne Lockwood: there about you get the resume, the CV in and you're trying to extract
Joanne Lockwood: this data and you're saying it's not geared up to actually
Joanne Lockwood: give you the soul or the personality or the heart of that individual, which is
Joanne Lockwood: what we really ideally want to be. Hiring people, not paper,
Joanne Lockwood: not numbers. I always think about the CV is very historical.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a Wikipedia. It's not saying anything about you.
Joanne Lockwood: We've kind of evolved the CV to be this master document of my life. This
Joanne Lockwood: is what I've done. I'm a great believer in not how
Joanne Lockwood: did you questions or what have you done questions. It's what would
Joanne Lockwood: you do? How would you approach this? Or what's your
Joanne Lockwood: thinking behind this scenario? Which the CV doesn't show you?
Joanne Lockwood: Which is why a lot more modern recruitment practises
Joanne Lockwood: anonymizing. They're using workplace samples, they're using five or six how
Joanne Lockwood: would you questions which actually require more effort from the candidate
Joanne Lockwood: because they can't just bombard you with their CV on
Joanne Lockwood: auto, they have to actually look at these questions now.
Joanne Lockwood: And that can actually filter candidates out because. Oh, that's too difficult. That's too difficult.
Joanne Lockwood: But if you actually put the effort into crafting that great
Joanne Lockwood: workplace sample, how would you tackle this challenging situation? How would
Joanne Lockwood: you tackle the data centre just gone down and you've
Joanne Lockwood: got customers screaming at you. How would you handle that situation? What would you do
Joanne Lockwood: first? That's for getting into the mindset of the
Joanne Lockwood: candidate and then we can see what a valuable resource they would be in a
Joanne Lockwood: crisis, in a. In a team environment, what their personality
Joanne Lockwood: is, isn't it? That's what we want to find out. I love that. And that
C. Guz: made me. That brings me to this. Like psychometric assessments that enterprises
C. Guz: leverage really heavily and then cannot feel
C. Guz: insecure at that point because they're thinking there is a
C. Guz: behavioural example that they're asking to answer. For example, you know, your
C. Guz: colleague just stole something from the office, what would you do? And then there Are
C. Guz: like four different like, answers to that. Like, do you protect
C. Guz: your, you know, colleague because they're your colleague and you
C. Guz: stand with them? Do you report that to the hr?
C. Guz: Do you, like, ask them to, you know, return that?
C. Guz: All of these things say something about your behavioural characteristics, your
C. Guz: personality. But these tests are not,
C. Guz: you know, leveraged in a way that creates psychological safety for
C. Guz: a candidate. Because you're standing in front of that screen and you're thinking to
C. Guz: yourself, what is the right answer? Like, because there are
C. Guz: different right answers in that particular situation. Maybe the employer is trying to
C. Guz: assess your loyalty there, maybe they're looking for your, like, work
C. Guz: ethics. If you're assessing loyalty, then you should ideally support
C. Guz: your colleague who stole something from the organisation. But from the business
C. Guz: perspective you shouldn't do that, but you don't know what they're assessing.
C. Guz: So the psychological safety, I think is, is really making things difficult
C. Guz: for the candidate. Like, I understand that I'm being assessed right now, but what
C. Guz: are you really looking to get from me? Like, what is it
C. Guz: that you're really assessing? And I understand all these like,
C. Guz: cheating measures and sort of really trying to create an unbiased
C. Guz: environment from a psychological experimenting perspective. And that's where we took these
C. Guz: like, studies from. Essentially all these psychometric assessment
C. Guz: softwares that you see now, they were one psychological experiments and
C. Guz: essentially we learned from that data and now we basically productize
C. Guz: them. But I think that candidates are not feeling safe with that and it's,
C. Guz: it's, it's not happening. I think it's a bit like
Joanne Lockwood: when you use ChatGPT or an AI system.
Joanne Lockwood: What you do at the beginning is you say you are an
Joanne Lockwood: expert this and your role is to design that.
Joanne Lockwood: When you do the psychometric test is you think, well, what am I applying for?
Joanne Lockwood: I'm applying to be a programmer, a
Joanne Lockwood: coder, therefore I'm going to put my head in that
Joanne Lockwood: mode. If you're hiring me to be head of security or HR or audit,
Joanne Lockwood: then I'll have a different answer because, you know, you want me to grass up
Joanne Lockwood: your teammate. You want to be ultimately security focused, company focused, but
Joanne Lockwood: if you're in a small team, you want this person to maybe talk to the
Joanne Lockwood: person that's committed the wrongdoing and say, look, you really shouldn't have done that. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't want to be the one that grasses you up. Why don't you go and
Joanne Lockwood: hand it back or be honest yourself and coach them into that
Joanne Lockwood: without colluding. So you want a different approach, so you just Got to put your
Joanne Lockwood: head in the mind of, of the job you're applying for. And
Joanne Lockwood: you could. People say you can't cheat these systems, but I think if you've, if
Joanne Lockwood: you've got enough intelligence, you can move your brain into a space
Joanne Lockwood: where you're thinking and acting in the model. You have to act. So
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, and I think what we're doing is we're almost forcing people to act and
Joanne Lockwood: we talk about bring your whole self to work. You don't actually want my whole
Joanne Lockwood: self. You want this narrow bit that fits into your definition.
C. Guz: Yeah, fully agree. And like recruiters are
C. Guz: essentially like prone to look for red flags rather than,
C. Guz: you know, the things that they like about the candidate that
C. Guz: helps them move to, to the next stage.
Joanne Lockwood: It's down to risk though, isn't it, the recruiter, if it can. If the
Joanne Lockwood: recruiter's got two good candidates, it will come down to which
Joanne Lockwood: one am I most comfortable, which one is least risk. And that is
Joanne Lockwood: often a bias. It's that gut feel, it's that spider sense.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, I just feel it. You rub the paper, you go,
Joanne Lockwood: this candidate just feels better to me. For whatever reason, all those
Joanne Lockwood: biases come out, don't they? So we have to recognise that
Joanne Lockwood: that personal bias has a huge influence on two identical
Joanne Lockwood: candidates or even two candidates that are very close. You make
Joanne Lockwood: a, I can't take the risk. If I hire this person, it goes wrong,
Joanne Lockwood: people are gonna blame me. People are self
Joanne Lockwood: protectionist as well. It's human nature. Yeah, yeah. But I think
C. Guz: that again, like it comes back to what we evolve
C. Guz: recruitment into. And that has become today, unfortunately,
C. Guz: rejecting candidates because like if 500 people are
C. Guz: applying, you have one opening. It's really,
C. Guz: really, really difficult to get to that top 10 when you're
C. Guz: able to like say, okay, now it's the top five and top two.
C. Guz: And then you also have to like have candidates, you have to, you know, keep
C. Guz: them waiting on the sign because maybe someone will reject the offer. And now you
C. Guz: have to be like thinking about your next move as a recruiter. But I think
C. Guz: like recruitment has been evolved in a way
C. Guz: that something that this candidate does is right and wrong. But I think that
C. Guz: it should be focusing on the differences, like how would this
C. Guz: candidate think about the situation? And maybe their way of thinking
C. Guz: is particularly right for a company that is in a, in a different stage
C. Guz: than ours. And that's completely okay. If you think that is, then, then you know,
C. Guz: you have to give them the feedback and that would be really helpful to
C. Guz: them so that they can go out and seek the right jobs for them. But
C. Guz: going back to iOS, you need data. There is
C. Guz: nothing in the process that is removing those biases. Like
C. Guz: we have software today that removes for
C. Guz: example, like the names of the candidates and like the contact information.
C. Guz: We had the DEI software that focused on reporting measures.
C. Guz: So it was more like do you want more females in your organisation now or
C. Guz: do you want more diversity? And diversity was diversity in a way that it was
C. Guz: healthy, but it was more like, hey, this, you know, Mr. Government,
C. Guz: this is the type of employees I hire now, you know,
C. Guz: like give me more funds. And I don't think that that's, that's the right way
C. Guz: to go about diversity. Inclusion has to be, you
C. Guz: know, for all the candidates that you're putting in the process for.
C. Guz: And if, for example, I'm a neurodiverse candidate, I don't always do well in
C. Guz: the interview. My brain works differently and recruiter can say
C. Guz: that my thoughts are unstructured, I don't know what I'm talking about.
C. Guz: And for example, it is on you to like set those candidates for
C. Guz: success, like send them the questions that you want to ask in advance and
C. Guz: then the candidate could then have the risk basically to, you know,
C. Guz: read things from ChatGPT. And we have things that are happening, but the candidates are
C. Guz: doing this because their trust is entirely gone in recruiters. Like we're
C. Guz: talking to people today and they're rather wanting to be assessed by an
C. Guz: AI than a recruiter because those recruiters are making them go through like
C. Guz: horrible candid experiences. And I think that's a pledge that we all have
C. Guz: to take. Like, you know what, I understand that things have
C. Guz: been really hard, but to rebuild this trust we have to work
C. Guz: together. And I think that that's, that's really
C. Guz: how things can move forward. Because I cannot be like these people
C. Guz: are adults. When you look at it like the
C. Guz: anti cheating measures and tracking softwares to me feels
C. Guz: just utterly dystopian. And I personally don't
C. Guz: want them in my hiring process because I, if I don't trust my candidate
C. Guz: and they know that I don't trust them, how can you
C. Guz: empower them as employees to do what's right when push comes down the
C. Guz: show, when they need to take an incentive, macromanagement
C. Guz: doesn't lead to success. We all know this. And then the question all
C. Guz: comes to like remote work and on site and everything else, but
C. Guz: I don't think that's the way to go. So we have to focus on rebuilding
C. Guz: that trust. I think to overcome Those biases.
Joanne Lockwood: I used to do a lot of work with smart recruiters. I went to a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of their conferences, spoke at a lot of their conferences. Pre Covid I got
Joanne Lockwood: to know their founder and CEO Jerome quite well and he talks about these
Joanne Lockwood: three dimensions of hiring success as he would put it. So
Joanne Lockwood: you've got the cost per hire, the hiring velocity and the candidate experience
Joanne Lockwood: and they can't all be high. Sorry, you can't have. You've got to balance
Joanne Lockwood: those. If you want great candidate experience, you can't do it cheaply.
Joanne Lockwood: If you want higher velocity at a pace, you can't do it cheaply
Joanne Lockwood: without sacrificing candidate experience. So you've got that three legged stool. If you're
Joanne Lockwood: not careful, what you end up doing is trading off for speed and velocity because
Joanne Lockwood: you've got empty seat costs, you've got need to fill that vacancy. Therefore
Joanne Lockwood: you're not going to think about diverse hiring best practise
Joanne Lockwood: because you've got to get somebody in that chair. You know, you know you've got
Joanne Lockwood: a three month lead time once you've made the offer and you want.
Joanne Lockwood: So basically this is a six month hiring hiring cycle
Joanne Lockwood: and you want someone now. So you can't do it cheap, you can't, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you can't do it quick, you can't do it take your time, do it properly.
Joanne Lockwood: You can do experiences going to be rubbish because you're just firing people in, filling
Joanne Lockwood: them up and you just kind of pick what you've got. So
Joanne Lockwood: how do you balance those things and actually which is the most important candidate
Joanne Lockwood: experience, cost per hire or velocity? Which one do you sacrifice
Joanne Lockwood: or should you? I think that it's not the question of a
C. Guz: sacrifice, but I think these things are interconnected. Like this is a system
C. Guz: that you're talking about and I think that if you nail candidate experience
C. Guz: then essentially you're reducing your cost for all things
C. Guz: involved. And the reason is because you're attracting the right candidates for you
C. Guz: because those candidates are essentially pre qualifying themselves and they now
C. Guz: know what kind of an organisation that they will be working in. So you're really
C. Guz: getting engaged candidates which essentially makes you not repeat
C. Guz: the hiring process over again and basically double your hiring costs. So
C. Guz: when investing your in your candidate experience, you're actually fixing all of them
C. Guz: in terms of the velocity. I think that really depends on what kind of
C. Guz: a role that you're hiring for. But every role like should look different. What kind
C. Guz: of a case study will you be like leveraging for example, because you also need
C. Guz: to, to focus on how to understand how to candidate things but without,
C. Guz: you know, basically making them do unpaid labour, which is, which is
C. Guz: a massive like concern in candidates today. So maybe you
C. Guz: compensate those case studies that might be, you know, costly but then you
C. Guz: basically say, you know what, I'm gonna send only to like the 10 candidates
C. Guz: that I know who might be qualified for the position. I think that investing in
C. Guz: candidate experience makes you attract the right candidates and those right candidates are
C. Guz: now engaged. So now you are able to move much faster
C. Guz: because you're in attracting them to your inbound. So this means that
C. Guz: you don't have to go out and seek those candidates on LinkedIn, message them and
C. Guz: outreach. It really takes so much time and even recruiters get
C. Guz: ghosted here. Like ghosting is not just for candidates at this point.
C. Guz: Candidates also as a response can try to like ghost
C. Guz: recruiters because of what is going on in the current job market. So I
C. Guz: think that candidate experience ultimately reduces your costs. But
C. Guz: if you like treat it right, if you don't understand how candid experience is
C. Guz: positioned within your greater hiring strategy and how the hiring
C. Guz: experience will look like and how different stages will
C. Guz: basically need different stakeholders to engage. For example, maybe a
C. Guz: hiring manager did like sends to send the feedback, needs to send the feedback or
C. Guz: a recruiter needs to collaborate with another recruiter. Maybe there is a decision making.
C. Guz: So if you structure those and essentially you will be able to move much faster,
C. Guz: much faster in this process. But again I think that candid
C. Guz: experience is not costly as people think.
C. Guz: Writing that one line of this is what our culture
C. Guz: looks like in a day to day. You know, we for
C. Guz: example, like describe someone's day to day. Like I wake up,
C. Guz: I get my coffee, I start my day in xyz, where are they working
C. Guz: from? Maybe you are like giving like remote work opportunities. So share
C. Guz: their real life experiences of a successful employee
C. Guz: profile so that the candidate can see, well I'm represented there
C. Guz: or not represented there. So the people who actually read your job
C. Guz: descriptions will be resonating with that and essentially they will be
C. Guz: the ones who apply and you will be reducing on all costs
C. Guz: included. Like you don't need to invest in a software to do this.
C. Guz: So I really think that it's really about focusing on
C. Guz: maintaining that human connection and it is not as costly
C. Guz: as you think and you really don't need to invest in a specialist software, especially
C. Guz: if you're a small organisation. What we talk about here is it's the early stage
Joanne Lockwood: of the sift, it's the talent attraction Element, the employer brand, making sure
Joanne Lockwood: that people resonate with you. Do the data
Joanne Lockwood: gathering and then we're doing the long list, down to the short list of
Joanne Lockwood: 10 candidates. We haven't actually met these people yet, have we really, in most of
Joanne Lockwood: these cases. And I'm a great believer when I'm a candidate, I just want to
Joanne Lockwood: meet you. Get me off of the paper, get me off of the, off of
Joanne Lockwood: the, the ats, into your face. Because I could, I know I can sell
Joanne Lockwood: myself, I can smile, I can engage, I can adapt, I can be
Joanne Lockwood: a chameleon around what you need face to face. But if I'm, if I'm trying
Joanne Lockwood: to argue on a bit of paper, that's not me, I can't, I'm not interested.
Joanne Lockwood: I want the human connection. So how do we give
Joanne Lockwood: candidates more face to face time without it being
Joanne Lockwood: burdensome? Because as you say, you see horror
Joanne Lockwood: stories of organisations that get people in for 10 interviews. They want
Joanne Lockwood: you to do this presentation, they want you to do this work summary, they
Joanne Lockwood: want you to write an application or design something for them.
Joanne Lockwood: Blimey, I'm doing all this work. And then you get this feeling that they're actually
Joanne Lockwood: using you as a prototype.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're marketing, they want to see who's got the best marketing idea. And even
Joanne Lockwood: though they don't hire, they still pinch your idea. So people are worried about their
Joanne Lockwood: own intellectual property at this stage as well, aren't they? I think
C. Guz: the best thing that you can do is actually find out who you will be
C. Guz: working with and then reach out to that person directly. But then like, for
C. Guz: example, as a recruiter, you will get a lot of
C. Guz: messages and I don't think that going to the recruiter will still like
C. Guz: get you on, on the top of the pile. A recruiter won't remember
C. Guz: each of the few thousand candidates who applied. But message the recruiter,
C. Guz: yes, they will go out and check with you, but they might
C. Guz: not be able to assess your competency because you have to remember that a
C. Guz: recruiter is not a specialist. So if I'm helping the,
C. Guz: let's say, lead product manager hire an associate product manager.
C. Guz: I have not been a product manager myself and as much as I can
C. Guz: talk to the like hiring manager, I still don't have the
C. Guz: nuances of what they're seeking. So go directly
C. Guz: to the hiring manager saying, hey, I've applied, I'm really excited
C. Guz: because your mission really resonates with me or the product that you're
C. Guz: working really relates to my experiences or the areas that I Want to grow.
C. Guz: Here are some of the things that I've achieved and I would be
C. Guz: really grateful for a response or basically directly going to that
C. Guz: person who you will be meeting with. If you're involved, then if
C. Guz: they like it, then you basically will get an interview and hiring manager will be
C. Guz: the one to prompt it. In the current process, unfortunately,
C. Guz: this is the shortest cut, the shortest pathway. This
C. Guz: is not ideal, absolutely not ideal. Especially if a load
C. Guz: of thousand candidates in the pipeline end up doing this. So you
C. Guz: really have to like, mindful about the message that you're
C. Guz: writing and you should give them actionable data. Like
C. Guz: as a candidate, you have to remember that the employer is
C. Guz: looking for actionable data. What makes you the right fit for that
C. Guz: position? And you know, how do you become
C. Guz: that successful employee profile? I think that's really important.
C. Guz: And don't be like forceful in your messages, like that's, that's
C. Guz: not going to leave a good impression. Or don't tell the recruiter, hey, you
C. Guz: haven't like checked my response in like two weeks. The recruiter is probably
C. Guz: drowning in applications. No recruiter wants to leave the
C. Guz: messages unanswered or leave the applications unanswered. But sometimes
C. Guz: they're stuck because the hiring manager says, you know what, I need a week because
C. Guz: I have X, Y, Z to finish in my current operations. So the hiring
C. Guz: process extends for another week and then another week. The recruiter is really the
C. Guz: frontline person here who doesn't have much control in,
C. Guz: you know, the internal operations, but she is the one, or he is the one
C. Guz: that is representing whatever that is going on and maintaining
C. Guz: those communication processes with you. But we know that in big
Joanne Lockwood: organisations, suddenly that role goes on hold, the project gets
Joanne Lockwood: cancelled, or there's another thing going on in the organisation, a merger
Joanne Lockwood: or a diversification. So the recruiter sat there in
Joanne Lockwood: the middle of this project, recruitment project, and suddenly he's got Austria. He's got no
Joanne Lockwood: idea what's going on around them. So, yeah, as a candidate you're obviously thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: well, they must be ready to hire. But that's not always the case. And some
Joanne Lockwood: of them, sometimes they're speculative. Go to market, just see who's out there as well,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't they? So they're not, they're not all. I know it's a bit unethical to
Joanne Lockwood: do speculative job seekers and just to get people in,
Joanne Lockwood: but it does happen. People are testing the market. They want to know, if we
Joanne Lockwood: were to open an office in this new city, what's our
Joanne Lockwood: likely response rate? So you Might want to put stuff out there, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: fly a kite, as they say, just to see what the interest is. Absolutely.
C. Guz: I think that one unethical practise that I really hope we
C. Guz: can like put to an end. Put an end to. And LinkedIn has been taking
C. Guz: some action against this, but it's really, really hard to know, especially when you're a
C. Guz: validated employer. Ghost posting. Like the jobs that
C. Guz: are not actually real and the main intention of that is
C. Guz: actually increasing the amount of LinkedIn followers because if you do not
C. Guz: opt out, then essentially as a candidate you follow
C. Guz: the employer and then that basically increases their follower count. So the
C. Guz: marketing team seems this as a shortcut. I'm really sorry,
C. Guz: but this is, this is what's going on. So you have to understand whether that
C. Guz: job is real. And it's really hard to, to do.
Joanne Lockwood: Now. Everyone's. We've got to remember that recruitment is
Joanne Lockwood: sales and marketing. It's. It's like buying or selling a house. It's like
Joanne Lockwood: anything you're. You're just trying to match
Joanne Lockwood: needs and, and resources and yeah, it's.
Joanne Lockwood: Some people are ethical, some people aren't ethical, or some people bend the ethics
Joanne Lockwood: to suit their own definition. So people will use any, any sales
Joanne Lockwood: technique. And you gotta remember that you're. Whilst you're the most important person to
Joanne Lockwood: you, you're not the most important person to the recruiter. The
Joanne Lockwood: recruiter's bosses, who they're trying to hire for is.
Joanne Lockwood: That is their client. Really, you are just the
Joanne Lockwood: plate of chips in McDonald's. You're just the food at the end of the day.
Joanne Lockwood: And the recruiter decides whether you want chips or whether you want jacket
Joanne Lockwood: potato. It's trying to get into that mindset
Joanne Lockwood: that you're not special, you're just one of a whole
Joanne Lockwood: pile of people. I think that's where it is, but I think that's
C. Guz: where we went wrong. Like, again, the transactionalism, it
C. Guz: must come to an end if you're being hired by
C. Guz: a recruitment agency. If you're a candidate and a recruitment agency recruiter has seeked
C. Guz: you out, the process will look like entirely different and the candidate
C. Guz: experience will be relatively better because you. I don't know
C. Guz: how to put it like this way. You said the food, so I'm just going
C. Guz: to use that. But essentially you are valuable because if you get
C. Guz: hired, then they get a bounty of that or a commission of that, so
C. Guz: they need you to get hired. But again, like, if you, if they
C. Guz: think that you're the right fit, then you're going to be seeing the top candidate
C. Guz: experience possible from that recruiter. But I really think that
C. Guz: again, like, we have to reestablish recruitment as a
C. Guz: partnership. Like, it's not just me who is
C. Guz: getting hired, but I'm also hiring you as an employer. Like I'm basically
C. Guz: saying I have all of these great skills, great qualifications, and if
C. Guz: you work with me, these are the things your organisation is going to be achieving
C. Guz: and these are the areas that I can grow myself in. And it's really
C. Guz: about meeting in the middle. Like it's
C. Guz: not. One gets the upper hand and the other fights against it. And
C. Guz: I think that mentality led us here, really. We
C. Guz: have to focus on rebuilding the bridge and we have to understand
C. Guz: and re establish recruitment as a partnership.
Joanne Lockwood: So you touched on AI earlier. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: reading these posts on LinkedIn and other forums around
Joanne Lockwood: recruitment and what we're ending up in is
Joanne Lockwood: an AI bot talking to an AI bot. We look at all these
Joanne Lockwood: no code platforms, Zapier, Pabli,
Joanne Lockwood: mate.com, all these sort of things. You can build all this stuff that will scrape
Joanne Lockwood: job listings, take the, the requirements, take your
Joanne Lockwood: Persona and merge it and produce that and then email the recruiter
Joanne Lockwood: off. Then the recruiter's got this ATS that sucks of that in
Joanne Lockwood: AI pre processes, it matches against the job spec and then if you're good enough,
Joanne Lockwood: you do. So are we going to be in a market where in the old
Joanne Lockwood: days it was? If I pay $150, I
Joanne Lockwood: can get someone to write my CV for me. That will be ATS Friendly
Joanne Lockwood: Keyword Boolean. They'll redo my LinkedIn profile so I'll send more chance.
Joanne Lockwood: Now you're going to have AI, no code, people writing automation
Joanne Lockwood: scripts to say, right, you pay me a thousand bucks
Joanne Lockwood: and I'll get you in there and I'll target you and I'll guarantee
Joanne Lockwood: you'll be submitted to, I don't know, 50 a day
Joanne Lockwood: and it'll be individually tailored and then we're just ending up in a world where
Joanne Lockwood: it's like super catfishing, isn't it? On dating sites where you
Joanne Lockwood: just, when you finally meet each other, you go, oh, who are you?
Joanne Lockwood: That's what we're going to end up, isn't it? I love how you put it.
C. Guz: One recruiter said to us, like, it's almost like in among
C. Guz: those 500 candidates, I'm looking for a simple human being because, like
C. Guz: ChatGPT, like it's almost a new form of
C. Guz: language where everyone just like Knows it as they see it, like
C. Guz: they call it out. As a recruiter, I know like
C. Guz: instantly when a cover letter is generated by GPT.
C. Guz: Like, and I'm not against GPT being used like in that process.
C. Guz: Of course, like, use that, of course paraphrase it. But if you're not
C. Guz: putting any additional effort, then, then like, how do I know as a
C. Guz: potential employee you will be putting that effort? So like, if I'm not
C. Guz: looking to hire someone like average, I'm looking for someone exceptional in that process.
C. Guz: And you're essentially telling me that you're not the exceptional person that I'm looking to
C. Guz: hire. So you're essentially wasting your own time and going back
C. Guz: to your question. So there is a data just before, like even
C. Guz: these automation tools came in for, for candidates.
C. Guz: 70% of candidates today already like lied or
C. Guz: exaggerated facts in their resumes. We know this. So who you
C. Guz: end up hiring or the sort of, you know, moving in the processes. But. Sorry
Joanne Lockwood: to interrupt, but. But 70% of organisations and companies lie about the
Joanne Lockwood: job as well. So it's, it's two people bullshitting each other, isn't it? We're
Joanne Lockwood: both selling. That's what we're doing. We're both selling an opportunity. Yeah,
C. Guz: that's, that's absolutely true. And you know, going back to it, it's, it's
C. Guz: really now hard because we know that AI hallucinates. Like, I've
C. Guz: tried these tools myself as well. Like it tells the,
C. Guz: you know, the AI tool that I'm able to speak like Dutch,
C. Guz: French and German and applies to all these positions that I'm not
C. Guz: qualified for. And then I see the LLM as written,
C. Guz: you know, the paragraphs. And then, you know, it just
C. Guz: doesn't make any sense. And the recruiters are, you know, seeing them and being
C. Guz: like, no, absolutely not. AI is not necessarily processing the
C. Guz: applications today, which is really the hardest part because like, governments
C. Guz: have serious consequences know against it. They're basically telling
C. Guz: you AI cannot make employment decisions. Like, there is
C. Guz: critical, you know, laws around this where you, you
C. Guz: have to see each of the resumes that are, that are being passed on
C. Guz: and filtering out is one way. And AI is able to currently like
C. Guz: summarise or pull like information of those resumes and score them.
C. Guz: But it cannot and should not make hiring decisions because you
C. Guz: still require that human judgement in the process. But again, like the
C. Guz: employers, again, that's why we have to focus on
C. Guz: building that bridge. Like, how do we meet in the middle and stop
C. Guz: BSing each other in this game? So if you Start talking right at the very
Joanne Lockwood: beginning about trying to see me as a human being in this process.
Joanne Lockwood: And one thing I've always wanted to happen is you apply for
Joanne Lockwood: an organisation and they say, actually now we've met you,
Joanne Lockwood: we think you might be better for this role or this role or this role.
Joanne Lockwood: Can we talk to you about other things we do in our organisation? So hiring
Joanne Lockwood: into a talent pool if you like, or fishing people into this talent pool where
Joanne Lockwood: they start to evaluate you, where they have a whole
Joanne Lockwood: smorgasbord, to use a Finnish or Swedish word, of
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities here we want to see where you fit in the organisation because
Joanne Lockwood: actually we want to hire you because you're a great
Joanne Lockwood: asset to our company. And then once you're here, we'll figure out what to do
Joanne Lockwood: with you. And I say, look, give me a job and then figure out what
Joanne Lockwood: to do with me because I'll, I'll evolve into it as well. And if you
Joanne Lockwood: think about quite the best organisations, there's job
Joanne Lockwood: share opportunities, there's career pivoting, there's moving into different areas of the business.
Joanne Lockwood: Why can't I do that on the way in rather than have to wait till
Joanne Lockwood: I'm there to do that? It's a great question. Personally, my opinion is
C. Guz: that those talent pools do not work. Like the initial reason that,
C. Guz: you know, those recruiters or employers in general are building those pipelines
C. Guz: is because rather talent pools is because, so that they can have
C. Guz: access and essentially reduce the candidate acquisition cost because
C. Guz: then they have to do recruitment marketing and then that means another
C. Guz: investment to their recruitment budget. But most of those candidates never
C. Guz: even get contacted and then, you know, it just becomes a
C. Guz: reporting metric again. I think that what you're saying makes
C. Guz: a lot of sense. There is one person, Constanti, who has been working
C. Guz: on this for the last 20 years and he says that you
C. Guz: essentially, you know, hire someone and they become the perfect
C. Guz: employee. Like you cannot expect for a candidate to, you
C. Guz: know, fill all the boxes before you hire them because you train them and they
C. Guz: evolve into the job as you mentioned, but we don't have any
C. Guz: tools today that focus on that evolution, that growth
C. Guz: potential. And that's exactly one of the gaps that we want to fill in with
C. Guz: Octopus. And essentially like you
C. Guz: don't have the data as a recruiter to show, hey, you know,
C. Guz: like Joanne is going to be growing to, to these areas or
C. Guz: this person is inclined, inclined to grow in XYZ directions and
C. Guz: they can therefore like create value for, for your business. It's,
C. Guz: it's really Hard to assess that, especially when you have so
C. Guz: limited data that is, that is not actionable. But
Joanne Lockwood: what a lot of progressive companies, I'd argue
Joanne Lockwood: they're progressive, is they're building their own academies. So they're.
Joanne Lockwood: Whether you want to call it later life apprenticeships, whether you want to. Whatever you
Joanne Lockwood: want to call it, recognising that you don't
Joanne Lockwood: always make the right decision when you go to college, when you go to university,
Joanne Lockwood: when you're 25, you think, I don't want to be a chef, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: be an engineer. And all of those early career
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities suddenly disappear, whereas some of the smarter companies are looking and saying,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, if you're a returning parent in your 40s,
Joanne Lockwood: whether you've been very redundant in your 50s, whether you're.
Joanne Lockwood: Wherever you are in your life, we're looking for fantastic people in our
Joanne Lockwood: organisation. And in the same way, if you wanted to train to be a doctor,
Joanne Lockwood: you go into a hospital and you do rotation around all the different departments. Actually,
Joanne Lockwood: I want to be a brain surgeon or no, I want to be in geriatrics,
Joanne Lockwood: I want to be in this, I want to be in that. So you specialise
Joanne Lockwood: once you've done your baseline qualifications. So if organisations were looking at
Joanne Lockwood: building talent academies, which is more active than
Joanne Lockwood: a passive talent pool, I'm not talking about a marketing database, I'm talking about active
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities to get people in who are seen as
Joanne Lockwood: great assets to the organisation, and then we'll build you and nurture
Joanne Lockwood: you into positions and we maybe discover in the first
Joanne Lockwood: three months, actually, you can go this way instead.
Joanne Lockwood: That gives people an opportunity to get back into the job market for the
Joanne Lockwood: depression that you felt into working with an organisation. You're going to be loyal. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, just think about the investment they're giving you and the investment you want
Joanne Lockwood: to give back, that loyalty you're going to give. Because there's trust there, isn't there?
C. Guz: That's true, but that also takes a lot of investment. Like, you
C. Guz: know, a number of enterprises today would be able to
C. Guz: invest in such a large. Because when you look at the LND
C. Guz: power behind it and all those people who have to, like, if they're
C. Guz: able to build those, you know, specific targeted academies,
C. Guz: it means that they have figured out their own kind of
C. Guz: like the, the role structures, like their L1s to L5, how
C. Guz: does L5 look like for me versus how does it look like for you?
C. Guz: But then your seeds say startup and you're like, okay, you have
C. Guz: to wear so many hats and you cannot necessarily focus
C. Guz: on, on that transition. So I think that if an
C. Guz: expectation from the candidate is towards more structure and
C. Guz: towards that flexibility, you know, you might
C. Guz: enjoy wearing the hats, but maybe you will realise that you want to do
C. Guz: something more specific so you have the more freedom and also safety
C. Guz: in enterprises, I would say. And that's why it's really important to
C. Guz: like, assess the behavioural characteristics of a person.
C. Guz: One thing that I really focus on in my interviews, for example, do you feel
C. Guz: more comfortable in structured environments, structured tasks where
C. Guz: like, you don't have to deal with abstract instructions and you
C. Guz: essentially are doing something with, you know,
C. Guz: like assigned training manual. And now there is not much
C. Guz: uncertainty there. But there are also some people who love that
C. Guz: uncertainty. For example, me, like, give me the biggest, most
C. Guz: complex problem and I'd rather solve that on my own than, you know, go
C. Guz: from point A to B repetitively. But for some people, they want
C. Guz: to specialise from like going on A to B, for example, let's say
C. Guz: creating marketing campaigns in that specific area, maybe they
C. Guz: want to specialise on Google Ads. So it's really, as
C. Guz: you know, we are very different as individual differences. And I think that in terms
C. Guz: of that flexibility, not every organisation will be able to
C. Guz: provide that. And it's important for candidates to also
C. Guz: recognise that as they're applying, because if that's an expectation
C. Guz: and you're applying to a startup who recently got funded and they're in a seat
C. Guz: and even like series A round, they won't be able to provide the same
C. Guz: flexibility. But if you, for example, go to a more mature environment, let's say
C. Guz: startup who's raised their like series C, series D, series E, then
C. Guz: you're really talking about that enterprise structure where you're able to see
C. Guz: how those roles and expectations have evolved, how
C. Guz: other people perform. Because like all that, academies are
C. Guz: built on the previous experiences. What did I learn internally
C. Guz: that I can translate to, you know, external resources to attract the right
C. Guz: talent for me, but if I lack that learning, then I
C. Guz: essentially can't build the right funnels that I will be able to attract the
C. Guz: right icp, the ideal candidate Persona, who will then transform
C. Guz: into my successful employee Persona.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's not easy, is it? It's not easy. And you say, do
Joanne Lockwood: I want structure? I love living in a world with chaos.
Joanne Lockwood: It allows me to create, lets me to ideate, allows me to spitball
Joanne Lockwood: blue sky, think whatever it is, but that's all well and good
Joanne Lockwood: until you actually want me to deliver something for you, because
Joanne Lockwood: my chaos is going to be different to your chaos. My expectations. Your expectations are
Joanne Lockwood: going to be different. So the moment I have to deliver something,
Joanne Lockwood: my first question is, let's nail it down. I don't want chaos at this point,
Joanne Lockwood: I want certainty. Because if I'm going to have to work something and deliver you
Joanne Lockwood: something, I want certainty. And I think it depends on the role,
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't it? If you're looking for an R and D with unlimited budget,
Joanne Lockwood: what we could do is sit there and drink coffee and
Joanne Lockwood: ideate. Or whether you actually want a project team that's going to come up with
Joanne Lockwood: something. You have your agile phase, you have your bit of ideations. I think the
Joanne Lockwood: candidates you're going to. Get. You want them to be able to
Joanne Lockwood: swap between those contexts, don't you? As well? So you can't always find that out
Joanne Lockwood: from a bit of paper in the interview. Do you like structure or do you
Joanne Lockwood: like chaos, as you say? My answer would be, I like both. But it depends
Joanne Lockwood: on what you want at the time you want it. The recruitment process we
Joanne Lockwood: have, it's just. It's not fit for purposes. It was still reliant on the cv.
Joanne Lockwood: I often train organisations around modern
Joanne Lockwood: contemporary recruitment practises, which is. It's not just anonymizing the cv,
Joanne Lockwood: it's just don't have one. And using workplace samples, using the five
Joanne Lockwood: questions, 400 words each, then grading them against predefined
Joanne Lockwood: metrics and follow that process all the way through to interview and each level
Joanne Lockwood: and having a diversity of thought on those questions and answers as well.
Joanne Lockwood: But I still come back when I'm in boardrooms talking to people and they say,
Joanne Lockwood: well, how do I know who they are without their cv? Well,
Joanne Lockwood: you don't. You have to trust. You have to trust the process. What if
Joanne Lockwood: we hire someone and I find out something later because I
Joanne Lockwood: haven't got this cv? You have to trust the process. But people are so wedded
Joanne Lockwood: to this document that we created in the 80s
Joanne Lockwood: when, with fax machines before then, we used to fill them in by hand, didn't
Joanne Lockwood: we? We used to fill application forms in and then the fax machine arrived and
Joanne Lockwood: we started printing stuff out and faxing it to each other. Yeah, the first
C. Guz: ever example like that is considered. The first resume was actually
C. Guz: created by Da Vinci. So that old we were speaking about
C. Guz: and he was wanting to work in an architectural project, so
C. Guz: he had to like summarise what he has done and that's
C. Guz: the first experience and it comes from like, resume, resume to. To
C. Guz: summarise. So essentially, like, you resum raising the things that you've done in
C. Guz: a more digestible manner. So that, that was the earliest example.
C. Guz: And I think that like resumes worked until some
C. Guz: point because I think that we were still focusing on that, you know, the
C. Guz: human element of it. But then with tech we
C. Guz: couldn't figure out how to marry that technology
C. Guz: with our emotional intelligence. And I think that's the challenge that we're facing
C. Guz: today. Like we have to be efficient. Yes. But at the
C. Guz: cost of that, you know, human touch, we became efficient. So looking
C. Guz: at the history of resume, when from, from your point, you used to mail
C. Guz: those resumes into organisations and then you would never hear back if you were
C. Guz: rejected because how can I send 500
C. Guz: replies? And like mail was expensive, how can I, you know,
C. Guz: like send that back to your address? So I only reach out to people who
C. Guz: I'm interested in and would like to speak to. You've naturalise that
C. Guz: process down but then come, you know, digitization like the
C. Guz: HTML job application portals, the first applicant tracking system,
C. Guz: digitising that entire process. The hiring decisions today are still not
C. Guz: made on those applicant tracking systems. Which is the most like biggest
C. Guz: irony to me because you know, applicant tracking systems
C. Guz: cost thousands and thousands of dollars, up to 100,000 or more
C. Guz: even like for, for enterprise level organisations and the biggest
C. Guz: software providers. And they're saying that they streamline your
C. Guz: recruitment. But if you're not making hiring decisions or if you're
C. Guz: not enabled to make those hiring decisions, then what do you streamline?
C. Guz: Exactly. Like if that software is not giving that actionable data to
C. Guz: you, what do they streamline? Exactly. And what I
C. Guz: see is then, you know, because they don't have that actionable data, these
C. Guz: tools have empowered us to even build more layers on top of it. So it's
C. Guz: now not three processes, not three steps of interviews, but like seven
C. Guz: stages where there are case studies involved, system design,
C. Guz: interviews, all these different interview processes that I am assessing you and then
C. Guz: you're asking, being asked to like resubmit a case study re
C. Guz: interview just because they cannot collect the
C. Guz: actionable data. And that's where we have to focus on. And again
Joanne Lockwood: like, or the recruiters risk averse and
Joanne Lockwood: they just want to be really, really sure, really, really, really sure. They're
Joanne Lockwood: almost scared to make a decision sometimes, which is why they want to see you
Joanne Lockwood: again. It's like oh, I can't sign, let's get them back in for another chance.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, I think some of it is just lack of decision making
Joanne Lockwood: or. Structured process, I would say structured process, yes. But
C. Guz: without that actionable data you're not able to like move anyone forward. You
C. Guz: should be able to say I'm moving John Doe because
C. Guz: he was able to demonstrate their XYZ qualifications and meets my
C. Guz: qualifications because you know like they want to grow in XYZ areas.
C. Guz: Like you should be able to, you know, picture
C. Guz: that and position that completely if you're moving that candidate in the process.
C. Guz: But I wouldn't say it's a risk aversion and you would do this as
C. Guz: a recruiter as well because it costs up to more, more than
C. Guz: the annual salary of an employee if they miss hire.
C. Guz: So then it even might cost them their job depending on the policy of
C. Guz: the organisation. Or it just, you know, leads to drastic. That's risk
Joanne Lockwood: aversion, isn't it? That's risk aversion. You know we know that the average
Joanne Lockwood: 30k salary is cost 130k in on
Joanne Lockwood: costs of getting it wrong. So there is a risk aversion there. And that people
Joanne Lockwood: are driven by. I can't mess this up, you know, if this person
Joanne Lockwood: A is not right for us or we're not right for them. Because that happens
Joanne Lockwood: as well. You know, you get the rejection on offer, you get the, you get
Joanne Lockwood: the first 14 days. We think oh this is for me, I'm out
Joanne Lockwood: that walk out. So yeah, it's, it is a
Joanne Lockwood: risk. I think what we're trying to do is we're trying to minimise those risks
Joanne Lockwood: on both sides. Protect ourselves, protect my own job. And I think some of
Joanne Lockwood: it is just down to lack of, lack of vigour and data
Joanne Lockwood: in the application process. We should be able to say
Joanne Lockwood: that person was good enough. That will do. Stop. Don't need to look any further.
Joanne Lockwood: Rather than say oh no, we need to see the next 200 people. I say
Joanne Lockwood: no, if you've seen the right person after three, stop. Nothing wrong with that.
Joanne Lockwood: Sorry. We've hired. I think that like
C. Guz: the recruiter has to be constantly moving along
C. Guz: and constantly making sure that there's like a backup of that candidate
C. Guz: and then expectations are not being communicated well and I think
C. Guz: that that's really creating a disconnect. But one more thing about the actionable data side
C. Guz: going back to like establishing recruitment as a partnership.
C. Guz: I don't know why you're inviting me to a first interview.
C. Guz: So what we're doing with OCTOPUS is hey recruiter, this
C. Guz: is a real time data that we collected because you've sent this
C. Guz: targeted smart pre interview. You have those answers before
C. Guz: even meeting that candidate. If they're not the right fit, you won't invest
C. Guz: 20 hours for that candidate because they're not qualified for your role. Hey
C. Guz: there, candidate. If you're not the right fit and looking at this, you're not feeling
C. Guz: happy, we're saving you 20 hours because that's on average
C. Guz: the roles expect you to like, invest in and per role. In today's job
C. Guz: market, if you were to pursue five jobs at the same time, that makes
C. Guz: 100 hours. And that leads you to burnout. If you're, you know, pursuing all of
C. Guz: them at the same week, it's more than double full time job expectations.
C. Guz: But that's how long it really takes to pay. So it's really a process that
C. Guz: burns, burns out both of the sites. So looking at
C. Guz: the partnership again. Hey recruiter, this is the data that we collected.
C. Guz: Hey candidate, this is how you were able to demonstrate your skills and
C. Guz: qualifications. Here's how you meet like the expectations.
C. Guz: When you're going to that interview, you should know what you've done
C. Guz: well, what you have not done well. And now you know how to position
C. Guz: yourself. And because you completed that pre interview, you now know what
C. Guz: kind of questions that the recruiter is going to ask you. So now you're set
C. Guz: to succeed, not set to fail. And that's basically what we want to
C. Guz: do. Like then we can really talk about an actionable, structured
C. Guz: interview where you're not starting from point zero. Hey, who are you and
C. Guz: where do you see yourself in five years? Like those kinds of unstructured interviews that
C. Guz: don't lead us to anywhere. Like if you're assessing the creativity of the calendars, go
C. Guz: ahead. But maybe in five years we're going to be dealing with another pandemic and
C. Guz: that just doesn't tell me what I can achieve in your organisation in the long
C. Guz: and short term. So focus on the competency inside the job performance.
C. Guz: Many of the interviews today are structured to assess interview performance and
C. Guz: expect that to be translated to job performance, which is again a massive problem.
C. Guz: But going back to, you know, that partnership, if both
C. Guz: sides have the same data now, then we can really finally talking about
C. Guz: them being on the same page and Octopus having built that bridge. And
C. Guz: that's why I care about that work so much. Because in every feedback
C. Guz: the candidate will get better in every interview. And every feedback that
C. Guz: they got from Octopus, who is being the bridge in between them and the
C. Guz: recruiters also will figure out how to better collect that
C. Guz: actionable data. So we're not replacing recruiters
C. Guz: and AI cannot and should not and will not like It's a human
C. Guz: hiring human being. So I would say that's really the core thing that we
C. Guz: have to focus on as we focus on building that bridge and
C. Guz: building that intersection between the human touch, the emotional
C. Guz: intelligence and technology, I think. So say it's been absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating. We could chat all day, I'm sure. So you've mentioned Octopus
Joanne Lockwood: several times. So you're the founder and CEO of Octopus. Do you want to just
Joanne Lockwood: give us, in a nutshell, your elevator pitch? What is Octopus?
C. Guz: Absolutely. I've just been talking about that. I should have
C. Guz: for that question. But to give you in a nutshell,
C. Guz: Octopus, if you're an organisation, helps you move forward only the
C. Guz: candidates that are aligned with your qualifications into your pipeline.
C. Guz: So you don't have to go through the 500 resumes that don't meet your
C. Guz: qualifications and instead send a smart pre interview that
C. Guz: is created based on your job description. And from there you will be
C. Guz: able to assess the qualifications you're looking for. Automatically.
C. Guz: Candidates are going to be submitting their answers to that. So it's like a
C. Guz: text based interview. So and on that they will be positioning themselves
C. Guz: and you will have given the space for them to really show what
C. Guz: they can do for your organisation and the additional information that they'd like to
C. Guz: mention. And then you will be able to access that data real time
C. Guz: and all those qualifications will be scored based on your
C. Guz: requirements. So everything that you've given us, it's about you.
C. Guz: You take that ownership, that flexibility and it's different
C. Guz: for every job, every role, every company. And that's why we
C. Guz: created Octopus, you know as to be your extra tentacle in this process,
C. Guz: because as we say that the problem is so big and massive right now that
C. Guz: arms are not solving it. So we develop tentacles. That's our motto.
C. Guz: So we're here to be your extra tentacle and help you make that right, the
C. Guz: hiring decision, and essentially build the bridge between the right candidate and
C. Guz: you and the. Every candidate who submits that pre interview with you
C. Guz: gets a feedback from Octopus saying that this is how they were able to
C. Guz: align with your requirements and demonstrate themselves effectively. So
C. Guz: in every pre interview that you're sending, you're actually nurturing
C. Guz: your talent pool. And those candidates will remember because
C. Guz: you've given them feedback. No recruiter today gives candidates
C. Guz: automatically the actionable feedback that they're looking for. 90% of them
C. Guz: go, so if you're looking to become a top employer,
C. Guz: then we'd love to be your extra tentacle. Fabulous.
Joanne Lockwood: What a punchline. Let us be your extra tentacle. And we know that
Joanne Lockwood: octopuses or octopi, they're seriously intelligent
Joanne Lockwood: creatures, aren't they? That they're. They're smart beyond their means. They're almost like
Joanne Lockwood: a alien life form because they're so intelligent. Yeah, I think so, the
Joanne Lockwood: extra tentacle. And with intelligence as well, no doubt. So lovely. So,
Joanne Lockwood: see, it's been fascinating. And if people get hold of you, how can they get
Joanne Lockwood: hold of an Octopus demo or find out more?
C. Guz: Absolutely. You can reach out to us on our website, which is
C. Guz: joinocto.co. So that would be J O I N O C T O . C
C. Guz: O. Or you can find me on my LinkedIn, which is C. Guz. So,
C. Guz: in any case, I'd love to hear from you. And if you're like,
C. Guz: you know, being challenged from, with your current hiring process and overwhelmed by so
C. Guz: many tools today, I'd also love to help you, you know, find the
C. Guz: right direction. Our goal with Octopus is to, you know, help you and
C. Guz: give you ownership that you must and should have as we
C. Guz: navigate the age of AI human humanship.
Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. And just if you're listening, C Guz. That's
Joanne Lockwood: C. You've abbreviated your name because it's Turkish and it's easier for people to say
Joanne Lockwood: C. So C full stop. And Guz is G U Z. So if you're
Joanne Lockwood: looking for you on LinkedIn, C Guz. Easy to find you. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your
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