WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.670 --> 00:01:18.550 And today is episode 171 with 19 00:01:18.550 --> 00:01:22.550 the title Belonging Across Borders. And I have 20 00:01:22.550 --> 00:01:25.470 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Mina Sharif. 21 00:01:26.190 --> 00:01:29.670 Mina is a writer, media producer and passionate 22 00:01:29.670 --> 00:01:32.950 advocate for building bridges between cultures through 23 00:01:32.950 --> 00:01:36.790 storytelling and empowerment. And when I asked Mina to 24 00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:40.510 describe her superpower, she said that it is seeing the 25 00:01:40.510 --> 00:01:43.990 unseen and amplifying voices caught between 26 00:01:43.990 --> 00:01:46.790 worlds. Hello, Mina. Welcome to the show. 27 00:01:47.590 --> 00:01:51.350 Hello, Joanne. Thank you for having me here. I'm writing, 28 00:01:51.350 --> 00:01:54.870 saying you're based in Canada, is that right, somewhere? 29 00:01:55.190 --> 00:01:59.150 That's right. I'm in Toronto, Canada, where I. Where I was raised 30 00:01:59.150 --> 00:02:01.990 as well and where I returned to in 2019. 31 00:02:03.430 --> 00:02:05.430 And you've just got a new Prime Minister. 32 00:02:07.110 --> 00:02:10.390 Yeah, we're hopeful. Yeah, 33 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.520 yeah. I mean, remaining hopeful is all anyone can do 34 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.640 politically. Former governor of the bank of England, Mark Carney, isn't 35 00:02:18.640 --> 00:02:22.560 it? His economic background is quite welcome all the time. So 36 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.560 us Brits know of him very well. We used to see him on the news 37 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.160 regularly over here. So. Yeah. Well, good luck. Yeah, it's good luck. Thank you. 38 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:33.160 Mina, your journey spans two worlds. 39 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:36.760 So you grew up in Canada, as you just said, but you've also built 40 00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:40.310 communities in Afghanistan. So how's that kind of experience 41 00:02:40.630 --> 00:02:44.150 shaped your passion for creating culture and connection and 42 00:02:44.150 --> 00:02:47.910 belonging across culture? Yeah, it's a wonderful question. 43 00:02:48.070 --> 00:02:52.030 Thank you. I think my entire life might have been shaped by 44 00:02:52.030 --> 00:02:55.670 that experience or by how I arrived between 45 00:02:55.750 --> 00:02:59.230 these two worlds and that bridge that I live on. I was born in 46 00:02:59.230 --> 00:03:03.110 Afghanistan and I was raised in Canada. My family 47 00:03:03.110 --> 00:03:07.030 were refugees in exile, as many, many Afghans are all around 48 00:03:07.030 --> 00:03:10.910 the world. And I did not grow up necessarily assuming 49 00:03:10.910 --> 00:03:14.390 that I would have a personal and direct connection to Afghanistan. The country 50 00:03:14.390 --> 00:03:18.350 itself was Always really behind the headlines of 51 00:03:18.350 --> 00:03:22.150 war. And when I was growing up in Canada and as a child, I did 52 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:26.070 not necessarily have any problem with my identity 53 00:03:26.070 --> 00:03:30.070 or any feeling of lacking. But in 2005 54 00:03:30.070 --> 00:03:33.910 I was able to go back to Afghanistan, initially 55 00:03:33.910 --> 00:03:37.480 as a volunteer, and I ended up staying for 15 years. 56 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.440 And when that happened, I became someone who had a childhood 57 00:03:41.440 --> 00:03:45.120 in Canada that shaped me and now a good chunk of my 58 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:49.000 adulthood that was shaping me further. And I 59 00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:53.160 somehow realised that I kind of live now between both worlds, neither 60 00:03:53.160 --> 00:03:57.120 fully in the Canadian sort of childhood that I had been 61 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.080 brought up with, not necessarily fully connected anymore, and neither 62 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.000 was I fully connected to Afghanistan. And the way that people had been 63 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.000 born and raised there might have felt. I felt that I was now 64 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.000 in the role of observer. Whether I was in Canada as 65 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.600 a, you know, someone with an Afghan background or whether I was in Afghanistan with 66 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.960 someone as a Canadian raised background. It really offered me a lot of 67 00:04:19.960 --> 00:04:23.520 opportunity to see disconnects and to see where we could 68 00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:27.120 connect in ways that we aren't. And that's really just shaped 69 00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:31.170 the path of, of many projects I've done and that I want 70 00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:34.650 to do in my life. So I've spoken to many people over the years and 71 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:38.730 when you are living somewhere outside 72 00:04:38.810 --> 00:04:42.370 of your birth community, all those, all those roots or that 73 00:04:42.370 --> 00:04:45.930 heritage, sometimes your own sense of culture becomes 74 00:04:45.930 --> 00:04:49.850 diluted by the new culture. How long 75 00:04:49.850 --> 00:04:53.610 does it take you to become kind of bridged in that sort of security about 76 00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:57.410 who you were and your heritage versus trying to also 77 00:04:57.410 --> 00:05:01.410 embrace the Canadian lifestyle as well? Right. Well, I think 78 00:05:01.410 --> 00:05:05.290 that's going to differ for different generations. Right. It would really depend on 79 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:09.210 how much lived experience you have in your, in your country of origin to begin 80 00:05:09.210 --> 00:05:13.090 with. Myself, along with many others, including in the UK and all around 81 00:05:13.090 --> 00:05:16.930 the world, many of us have grown up without any access 82 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:21.130 to the country that we're originally from. And so we're really kind of creating our 83 00:05:21.130 --> 00:05:25.080 identity within, with bits and pieces, whether it's the example of Afghanistan 84 00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:29.000 is. Is going to include headlines as part of how we piece together who we 85 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.920 are. War headlines. It's going to be stories that our parents share with 86 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.760 us, it's going to be language and food and music. But 87 00:05:36.760 --> 00:05:40.720 it's. And I, I had that. And I felt connected to who, you know, my 88 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.040 background, what my background was. And I think once I moved 89 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.880 to Afghanistan, I. That's when I realised, wow, there's actually a lot 90 00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:52.720 missing when, when you're trying to piece it together on your own. I 91 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.680 think a conclusion that I'm arriving at now is that we're not 92 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.600 ever going to be able to have the same connection 93 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.440 as maybe our parents had or that people that live in Afghanistan have to that 94 00:06:04.440 --> 00:06:08.200 identity. Nor are we going to have a fully like I belong here 95 00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:11.560 kind of feeling that a lot of times people in our host country 96 00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:15.560 can have. And what I'd like to see is that we, instead of 97 00:06:15.870 --> 00:06:19.470 falling into victimhood or anger about it, find a way to 98 00:06:19.630 --> 00:06:23.350 recognise that it's almost a new category and 99 00:06:23.350 --> 00:06:27.310 that we are maybe blessed to be part of more than one world rather 100 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:30.510 than ostracised from whatever world we're sitting in. 101 00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:34.950 So you're enriching the environment you're now in with all of the 102 00:06:34.950 --> 00:06:38.550 heritage and family and 103 00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:42.290 culture that you bring with you. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. So what, what 104 00:06:42.290 --> 00:06:46.290 inspired you to go back after all those years? That's a 105 00:06:46.290 --> 00:06:49.010 great question, I think. And I think that also has a lot to do with 106 00:06:49.010 --> 00:06:52.730 how my experience may have differed from others. And I think the great part about 107 00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:56.730 it is I never planned to go back. And sometimes when things happen 108 00:06:56.730 --> 00:07:00.010 as a surprise, that way it you manage your 109 00:07:00.010 --> 00:07:03.970 expectations, you're not coming in with preconceived notions that others 110 00:07:03.970 --> 00:07:07.050 might have had. If I had been dreaming of going back my whole life, I 111 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:10.870 would have had, you know, an entire upbringing of hopes and 112 00:07:10.950 --> 00:07:14.310 expectations going in. I didn't, I went in 113 00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:18.790 really with some ingrained stereotypes. I went in with 114 00:07:18.950 --> 00:07:22.830 the expectation that I truly expectation that I wouldn't be 115 00:07:22.830 --> 00:07:26.590 welcomed as much as I ended up being welcomed. And because of that, I 116 00:07:26.590 --> 00:07:29.830 think a lot of my, a lot of my experience was 117 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:33.830 surprisingly positive. And maybe that's why I was able 118 00:07:33.830 --> 00:07:37.780 to sort of maintain that and see that wait, maybe this 119 00:07:37.780 --> 00:07:41.180 dual identity and dual experience is a 120 00:07:41.180 --> 00:07:45.140 superpower and not the worst thing that could happen to someone. Maybe we have an 121 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:49.060 opportunity to really be a bridge between two worlds because we 122 00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:52.540 are part of two worlds. I suppose my, my perception of 123 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:56.500 Afghanistan is, is extremely limited. Probably similar to yours before you 124 00:07:56.500 --> 00:08:00.340 went back. I know of it like 125 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:03.020 many do, because of the troubles, because of the wars, 126 00:08:04.470 --> 00:08:08.350 either the American influence, the Russian influence, Taliban 127 00:08:08.350 --> 00:08:12.190 or various other bodies there. And most of my, I kind 128 00:08:12.190 --> 00:08:16.110 of, if I had to picture Afghanistan with my eyes closed, I 129 00:08:16.110 --> 00:08:19.750 would see a very rocky, mountainous desert type place with 130 00:08:20.630 --> 00:08:24.630 men with Kalashnikov rifles running around in very sandy 131 00:08:24.630 --> 00:08:28.150 sort of environments, presumably. And 132 00:08:28.390 --> 00:08:32.370 I'm sure that I'm completely missing the real, real day 133 00:08:32.370 --> 00:08:36.170 to day Afghanistan. You know, the towns, the cities, the people. But that's the 134 00:08:36.170 --> 00:08:39.050 media Bias I have. That's the pictures I see all the time. 135 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:43.450 Absolutely. And, and I think this is where a word 136 00:08:43.930 --> 00:08:47.770 that I bring up a lot comes in compassion. I think that 137 00:08:47.770 --> 00:08:51.650 it is the responsibility of those of us who want you 138 00:08:51.650 --> 00:08:55.170 to see Afghanistan more broadly to understand with some 139 00:08:55.170 --> 00:08:59.090 compassion that that's the image that you were given and that that's 140 00:08:59.090 --> 00:09:02.730 not a decision you made to think that of Afghanistan you didn't 141 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:06.530 decide. I want to just picture Sandy, you know, dry 142 00:09:06.530 --> 00:09:10.490 desert and guns and men. That's what you were given. So I really 143 00:09:10.490 --> 00:09:14.450 approach it now in a different way than I might have before where, 144 00:09:14.450 --> 00:09:18.410 you know, in my younger years I might have been defensive of. Why. Why 145 00:09:18.410 --> 00:09:21.940 would you only think that of where I'm from when it's so different? And, and 146 00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:25.900 I think the time has done this for me and really 147 00:09:25.900 --> 00:09:29.620 just reassessing. If I want to be positive about where I'm from and 148 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:33.300 the reality of how beautiful it is, then I have to 149 00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:37.060 remember that I came in with without knowing that how am I to 150 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:41.020 expect that anyone else should know it organically? And that includes people 151 00:09:41.100 --> 00:09:44.900 who are of Afghan origin. It's not a message that I direct just 152 00:09:44.900 --> 00:09:48.540 at those who may not know much about the country. 153 00:09:48.700 --> 00:09:51.980 Our own, I would say Afghans in exile, the 154 00:09:51.980 --> 00:09:55.900 diaspora, however we want to. To label them, they've also had 155 00:09:55.900 --> 00:09:59.660 a limited access. I also myself had a limited access. So I really 156 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:03.540 like to realise that fair enough, that's all you saw. 157 00:10:03.540 --> 00:10:07.420 That's. And that's not on you. And absolutely. It does not reflect 158 00:10:07.420 --> 00:10:11.180 the day to day life. It doesn't reflect the day to day communities. It doesn't 159 00:10:11.180 --> 00:10:14.940 reflect the beauty or the positivity or the. You 160 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:18.500 know, resilience is a word I don't really love, but you also 161 00:10:19.510 --> 00:10:23.430 see it from a place of Afghans are victims of war. But no, resilience 162 00:10:23.430 --> 00:10:27.270 is also maintaining who you are and maintaining the strength of your 163 00:10:27.270 --> 00:10:30.710 culture despite the war. And that's hard to see 164 00:10:31.030 --> 00:10:34.070 from what, you know, we've got access to 165 00:10:35.030 --> 00:10:38.950 because. In that, in that region of the world there's lots of countries 166 00:10:39.030 --> 00:10:42.550 with the kind of the stan ends, Kazakhstan, 167 00:10:42.550 --> 00:10:46.350 Afghanistan. There's lots of. That's kind of that region where you want a 168 00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:50.180 bigger nation that's split into various countries or 169 00:10:50.260 --> 00:10:54.100 we all very virulently independent. Afghanistan 170 00:10:54.100 --> 00:10:57.700 itself has a history that's over 5,000 years old. So there were 171 00:10:58.020 --> 00:11:01.740 empires that you could define if you go far back enough. But I think 172 00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:05.660 that's to be said for any part of the world. The word stand just 173 00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:09.460 Means land of. So it's, you know, when the UK 174 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:13.500 had a strong role in creating the Pakistan, for example, 175 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:17.390 it was using the language that was similar to existing countries in 176 00:11:17.390 --> 00:11:21.230 the region. I've learned something now. So Kurdistan, 177 00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:25.150 land of the Kurds. Afghanistan, land of the Afghans. 178 00:11:25.150 --> 00:11:27.310 Wow. I can feel completely educated now. 179 00:11:28.910 --> 00:11:32.870 Well, let's not go too deep into the historical facts, because it's not 180 00:11:32.870 --> 00:11:36.430 my. It's not necessarily my forte, but, yeah, just organically I 181 00:11:36.670 --> 00:11:40.670 learn as I'm part of it. So Afghanistan, over the 182 00:11:40.670 --> 00:11:44.220 last, As I say, 50, 60 years, 183 00:11:44.780 --> 00:11:48.460 has gone through a cultural evolution 184 00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:51.900 and then due to various troubles and wars 185 00:11:52.300 --> 00:11:56.300 and regimes, it's gone in and out 186 00:11:56.380 --> 00:12:00.100 of freedoms for women, for girls. And we're currently 187 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:03.300 living in a time where a lot of the freedoms that women and girls have 188 00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:07.300 experienced for almost. Almost a generation have almost been taken 189 00:12:07.300 --> 00:12:11.140 away overnight. And that must be quite heartbreaking for you. Yeah, 190 00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:15.060 it's devastating because for many reasons, it's devastating. One, 191 00:12:15.060 --> 00:12:18.900 that it's a complete violation of their very basic right. Two, that 192 00:12:18.900 --> 00:12:22.620 it's being, I think, labelled as some decision 193 00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:26.540 made by the community itself, which is not true. It's an imposed 194 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:30.300 violation of their rights. It's also being, I think, oftentimes 195 00:12:30.300 --> 00:12:34.140 labelled as part of our culture, which it's not. And history proves that for me. 196 00:12:34.140 --> 00:12:37.130 I don't need to just. I don't need to just stomp my feet and say, 197 00:12:37.130 --> 00:12:40.650 that's not who we are. Our history will show you that we had women in 198 00:12:40.730 --> 00:12:44.650 high positions of political power and ministers and 199 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:48.610 a very good representation in society, oftentimes before 200 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:52.450 the west did the right to vote very early. So, you know, the 201 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:56.250 history can show you that our community supports women in 202 00:12:56.330 --> 00:13:00.170 society when the atmosphere allows for it, when security 203 00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:03.970 allows for it. War has always impacted women first and 204 00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:07.900 foremost in loss of rights. And Afghanistan, unfortunately, 205 00:13:07.900 --> 00:13:11.900 I wish it was even only 50, 60 years, we were going back a hundred 206 00:13:11.900 --> 00:13:15.740 more of instability. We have pockets that we've had of, 207 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:19.340 I would call it, breathing space for Afghan society, 208 00:13:19.420 --> 00:13:23.340 when and which has never meant that we were fully free and able 209 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:26.860 to sort of rebuild and be who we want to be. But let's say pockets 210 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:30.640 of security. When women could come out and attempt to re. Rebuild, 211 00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:34.470 rejoin society, those were in pockets. So when you look at 212 00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:38.350 pockets, you can look at it as the potential or you can look at 213 00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:42.350 it as, oh, they were just influenced by what. But that's not true, because no 214 00:13:42.350 --> 00:13:46.270 matter who was attempting to control Afghanistan, when there was a bit of 215 00:13:46.270 --> 00:13:49.910 security, women were out. And now that we don't even have any security. 216 00:13:50.310 --> 00:13:54.270 Women are still out there demanding that they be heard 217 00:13:54.270 --> 00:13:58.190 and seen and given their, given their rights. Despite all the danger and 218 00:13:58.190 --> 00:14:02.010 lack of support, they're still out protesting. Are they being heard at all though? 219 00:14:02.730 --> 00:14:06.570 Are they making any difference at all or are they the 220 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:10.410 men in society that are basically drowning them out? Well, 221 00:14:10.410 --> 00:14:14.330 the men in society are either part 222 00:14:14.330 --> 00:14:17.930 of the oppressed community that they are and who. I, 223 00:14:18.570 --> 00:14:21.450 you know, I think we need to understand that there's a difference between who is 224 00:14:21.450 --> 00:14:25.250 oppressing Afghanistan from sort of that political space and, and the 225 00:14:25.250 --> 00:14:28.930 community itself. The community itself includes men who are defending women. It 226 00:14:28.930 --> 00:14:32.770 includes men who want, you know, their wives and sisters and daughters 227 00:14:32.770 --> 00:14:35.690 in school who, you know. So it's not really 228 00:14:37.290 --> 00:14:41.170 that. I don't think it's as necessarily nuanced as some 229 00:14:41.170 --> 00:14:44.770 people want to make it. At the end of the day, it's the laws and 230 00:14:44.770 --> 00:14:48.730 decrees coming in from the Taliban that are holding 231 00:14:48.810 --> 00:14:51.690 women in the position that they are society wise. 232 00:14:53.020 --> 00:14:56.380 That's not where it's coming from solely, absolutely at all. How were the. 233 00:14:57.660 --> 00:15:00.820 I can ask this question. I'm not sure I know it's the right question, but 234 00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:04.460 how were the Taliban allowed to get this control 235 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:08.339 over the, over the region? How did that, how are they allowed? Because people must 236 00:15:08.339 --> 00:15:12.260 have seen it coming. You said they weren't voted and 237 00:15:12.260 --> 00:15:15.340 I can tell you that people and the communities, 238 00:15:16.140 --> 00:15:19.260 for the most part, I can't speak for everyone, no one can ever speak for 239 00:15:19.260 --> 00:15:23.170 everyone, but travelled to a lot of the 240 00:15:23.170 --> 00:15:26.650 provinces of Afghanistan. There are 34, I've been to 30. A lot of Afghans who 241 00:15:26.650 --> 00:15:30.330 are born and raised in Afghanistan haven't seen as much of the country as I 242 00:15:30.330 --> 00:15:33.290 have or spoken to as many new women in different. 243 00:15:34.170 --> 00:15:37.850 Women and families in different parts of the country and different, 244 00:15:39.050 --> 00:15:42.570 with different livelihoods. And they feared the return of 245 00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:46.530 Taliban the entire time because it meant. They knew what it meant. They 246 00:15:46.530 --> 00:15:50.300 knew that it was. That they wouldn't have changed and that they would be oppressive 247 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:53.380 as they had been in the past. It's also worth. We're not going to, you 248 00:15:53.380 --> 00:15:57.180 know, hopefully go too, too deep into politics and how we got here. But 249 00:15:57.500 --> 00:16:01.380 it is worth noting that the Taliban and their ideology is 250 00:16:01.380 --> 00:16:04.860 foreign to Afghanistan. They were not even schooled in Afghanistan, 251 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:08.860 so we'll leave it at that. It is not something welcome 252 00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:12.380 and they have not been voted in and how did they get there? Also 253 00:16:12.380 --> 00:16:16.340 includes the role of Afghanistan's own unfortunately 254 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:20.740 quite corrupt government and it also very much includes the 255 00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:24.260 many, many countries that came into Afghanistan under the guise of 256 00:16:24.260 --> 00:16:28.100 saviorism and said, we're here to liberate the women of Afghanistan 257 00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:31.820 and we're here to fight terrorism. And then suddenly changed their mind and 258 00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:35.620 decided none of that was important overnight and left. So 259 00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:39.460 there's a lot of, I think, hands involved in how we got here. 260 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:43.430 Unfortunately, it's not just straightforward. It's this guy's fault how we 261 00:16:43.430 --> 00:16:47.430 got to this level of a person. It's just everybody's in a sense, 262 00:16:47.430 --> 00:16:50.430 really. It was a quite a messy, messy buildup. 263 00:16:51.390 --> 00:16:54.670 See, I'm assuming you must have many friends 264 00:16:55.070 --> 00:16:59.030 still there living under this rule. Are you able to communicate 265 00:16:59.030 --> 00:17:02.790 with them or is their communication shut down? No, in this day and age, we 266 00:17:02.790 --> 00:17:06.790 have the Internet, we have the phone. It's not. They're 267 00:17:06.790 --> 00:17:10.600 not. Yeah, no, they've got the means to communicate. Yeah, 268 00:17:10.600 --> 00:17:14.440 no, sorry. I wasn't suggesting that they were suddenly some backwards 269 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.040 society, but I was wondering what controls were in place. Internet restrictions. 270 00:17:18.840 --> 00:17:22.200 Are women allowed to use technology? I don't know how it works in the household. 271 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.720 I mean, out in the street, I guess there's enforcement. But 272 00:17:25.800 --> 00:17:29.560 inside households, is it a fairly free regime? Well, a regime 273 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.280 is separate from a household. A household makes its own decisions, and the 274 00:17:33.280 --> 00:17:37.240 regime are the decrees that are being imposed from. From 275 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.320 higher, you know, levels of power. Those are two separate things. 276 00:17:41.560 --> 00:17:45.360 So what they decide for you is a decree, and it's a law. And it 277 00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:49.240 may represent how you have to present outside of your home. It is not 278 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.039 reflective of decisions that people make in their home. It never has 279 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.960 been. Okay, so most people are allowed to carry on 280 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.840 their home life and their private lives outside the gaze, if 281 00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:03.640 you like, of the people in the street with the freedom to epiphone. 282 00:18:04.780 --> 00:18:08.220 I don't. I wouldn't phrase it that way. I would say that women are confined 283 00:18:08.300 --> 00:18:12.060 to the homes, and I wouldn't assume that their 284 00:18:12.140 --> 00:18:16.140 own family is saying, we don't want you reading a book. So, you know, they're 285 00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:19.939 potentially reading a book in the house, but no, outside of the home. The 286 00:18:19.939 --> 00:18:23.700 decrees are not in their favour. I kind of imagine that the 287 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:27.180 government, if you like, would shut down Internet communications, 288 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:31.330 television broadcasts, and control it, I. 289 00:18:31.330 --> 00:18:35.330 Think might have goals like that. But the decrees don't work overnight. And 290 00:18:35.330 --> 00:18:39.010 you have to remember that people, other countries, like the uk, like Canada, like the 291 00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:42.090 US For a. For a moment there was, I think 292 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:46.890 I use the word pretending, pretending to monitor them, pretending to care about 293 00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:50.650 their violation of human rights. From the UN to the, you know, 294 00:18:50.650 --> 00:18:54.410 superpowers of the world, they might Be putting on a show here and there 295 00:18:54.410 --> 00:18:58.250 in how slow things move. But they're, they're playful. Their 296 00:18:58.250 --> 00:19:02.210 decrees are announced on a regular basis. I believe today they announced that 297 00:19:02.290 --> 00:19:05.890 women are not to be on radio anymore. Initially it was 298 00:19:06.050 --> 00:19:09.650 women and men shouldn't be on radio together, and now it's women gone altogether. 299 00:19:09.810 --> 00:19:13.690 Wouldn't. I would be open to being corrected on that, because I just saw 300 00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:17.650 that today. But the list is. Is horrendously long of things 301 00:19:17.650 --> 00:19:21.490 that they have announced. But announced is different than 302 00:19:21.810 --> 00:19:25.610 imposed. But you still don't want to live in a country where the law says 303 00:19:25.610 --> 00:19:28.490 you're not allowed to go to school, the law says you're not allowed to be 304 00:19:28.490 --> 00:19:32.430 in a park because they can enforce their laws. They 305 00:19:32.430 --> 00:19:36.430 do. Yeah. It's. I have no point of reference to understand how 306 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:40.390 or why people think this way. And it's, It's a, It's a really. I'm 307 00:19:40.390 --> 00:19:44.070 sure many of the people listen to this, don't understand how, 308 00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:46.390 how you can oppress somebody so greatly. 309 00:19:48.630 --> 00:19:52.550 Ask this when we're thinking about what is a cult? What does a 310 00:19:52.550 --> 00:19:56.530 cult do? How is a cult reach the point where they're a cult and 311 00:19:56.530 --> 00:20:00.450 they are oppressing their own members and they're oppressing and they 312 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:03.210 want the entire society to live like them. It's not different. 313 00:20:04.650 --> 00:20:08.410 Yes, I hear you, and you're right. I. I guess I've never lived in that 314 00:20:08.410 --> 00:20:11.610 sort of environment where my fundamental right 315 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:15.770 to walk down the street is being questioned. Okay. As a, As a trans woman, 316 00:20:15.770 --> 00:20:18.810 I feel that there's some people out there that probably want that of me, you 317 00:20:18.810 --> 00:20:22.380 know, to hide me, to erase me and to, to eradicate me. But law 318 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.380 protects you. Yeah, the law in the UK certainly 319 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:30.140 does. I mean, the law in some other countries probably wouldn't, but yeah, it's. Yeah, 320 00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:32.740 it's. It's even worse when the law actively 321 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:37.819 legislates against you is the issue, isn't it? And that's. That's what we're seeing 322 00:20:37.819 --> 00:20:41.420 in Afghanistan right now with the women. It's a great way to put it. 323 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:45.300 Absolutely. Yeah. Where you think they were there to protect you, they're actually there 324 00:20:45.300 --> 00:20:48.500 to do you the harm. And, yeah, it's extremely sad. 325 00:20:49.590 --> 00:20:52.310 And I don't want to spend the entire episode just talking about that, because I 326 00:20:52.310 --> 00:20:55.910 know you're a bigger person than just an Afghani or 327 00:20:56.310 --> 00:20:59.270 a person with Afghani history and spending many years there. 328 00:21:00.390 --> 00:21:04.310 So what does excite you these days? I would say that after Afghanistan fell 329 00:21:04.310 --> 00:21:08.270 to Taliban, just, you know, to segue from it, it was, was in kind 330 00:21:08.270 --> 00:21:11.750 of what I would describe as an emergency state. You know, trying 331 00:21:12.150 --> 00:21:15.790 imagining that they're only gonna last six months. But we've gotta help the people that 332 00:21:15.790 --> 00:21:19.300 are there and the people who are in immediate danger. And in my case life 333 00:21:19.300 --> 00:21:22.860 right now, I think I'm just, we're now almost at four years and 334 00:21:22.860 --> 00:21:26.860 I'm, I'm just grounding into what do I do with this 335 00:21:27.020 --> 00:21:30.780 and what do I do when I look at this as long term, 336 00:21:30.860 --> 00:21:34.140 as potentially long term. How do we continue to support, 337 00:21:34.540 --> 00:21:38.380 continue to recognise emergencies when they are emergencies. 338 00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:42.140 But what does it look like for me to better 339 00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:46.260 spaces of understanding both of Afghanistan like 340 00:21:46.260 --> 00:21:49.620 we're having in this conversation today of Afghanistan society, of 341 00:21:49.620 --> 00:21:53.400 Afghanistan's women also just, you know, supporting people in 342 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.360 the healing that has to happen when they've, they're now in 343 00:21:57.360 --> 00:22:01.240 exile or when people are meeting an Afghan who is newly in 344 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:05.240 exile. How do we, you know, support that connection? How do we 345 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:09.040 continue to support the, how do we 346 00:22:09.040 --> 00:22:12.600 continue to support how people have looked at Afghanistan? 347 00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:16.280 You know, from before the Taliban to after the Taliban? It doesn't matter. We've always 348 00:22:16.280 --> 00:22:20.230 had that label of war torn country. And that's 349 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:24.070 not something that I can even put on the Taliban alone. That's something 350 00:22:24.070 --> 00:22:28.030 that I put on lack of information and lack of curiosity and 351 00:22:28.030 --> 00:22:31.990 lack of sharing of information. So that's, that's where I'm 352 00:22:31.990 --> 00:22:35.870 more focused now because that's something tangible that I can make a difference 353 00:22:35.870 --> 00:22:39.670 to and I can't change who's in power in Afghanistan 354 00:22:40.070 --> 00:22:43.750 and I, I don't want the stress of that always on me. 355 00:22:43.750 --> 00:22:47.420 So I try to make an effect where I can make an effect. 356 00:22:49.020 --> 00:22:52.140 So you work with people who've been 357 00:22:53.340 --> 00:22:57.180 forcibly disenfranchised, relocated, fleeing 358 00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:01.020 the country. Do you have much memory of when you first 359 00:23:01.100 --> 00:23:04.620 arrived in Canada as a, as a refugee, stroke immigrant, 360 00:23:05.020 --> 00:23:07.740 how you felt at that time in terms of your 361 00:23:08.780 --> 00:23:12.380 loss of reference to the culture, lots of reference to your language. 362 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:17.370 How long did it take you to adapt? Say that would be more my parents 363 00:23:17.530 --> 00:23:21.410 story because I was too young. So you know, I'm trying to absorb how 364 00:23:21.410 --> 00:23:24.810 that was for them to a point. And I think I saw more of the 365 00:23:24.810 --> 00:23:28.689 after effect of that of having to conform a lot and 366 00:23:28.689 --> 00:23:32.490 having to be maybe being too sad to talk about the things they 367 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:36.090 missed. It took them a long time to really open up about the positive sides 368 00:23:36.090 --> 00:23:39.660 of the country to me outside of home life, 369 00:23:39.820 --> 00:23:43.180 meaning, yes, we had the food, we had the music. They, we loved the culture 370 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:46.860 but it was painful for them to discuss the lives that they'd left behind. That 371 00:23:46.860 --> 00:23:49.820 took a long time, and I picked up on that, that that was difficult for 372 00:23:49.820 --> 00:23:53.380 them. Like I said, I was too young. So I arrived here. By the time 373 00:23:53.380 --> 00:23:56.860 I was four years old, I was already in Canada and in kindergarten. So I 374 00:23:56.860 --> 00:24:00.660 wouldn't say that I was affected by the actual transition to the extent 375 00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:04.380 that an adult or an older child would be. But I had always, 376 00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:08.540 in looking back, I had never had it acknowledged 377 00:24:08.780 --> 00:24:12.140 for me that I am a child of a first generation 378 00:24:12.300 --> 00:24:16.180 discovering a whole new host country. I had never been acknowledged 379 00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:19.980 for my personal loss of, you know, not having a. 380 00:24:20.780 --> 00:24:24.580 Not growing up somewhere that my parents even understand. I didn't have 381 00:24:24.580 --> 00:24:28.140 guides to tell me what a Canadian upbringing is and what 382 00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:31.660 life is going to look like. I think a lot of people in my position, 383 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:35.650 which, again, there are millions of Afghans alone, never mind of other 384 00:24:35.650 --> 00:24:39.370 backgrounds, we really do have to fend for ourselves. And there are layers of 385 00:24:39.370 --> 00:24:43.370 guilt because we're so lucky while our parents had to flee, 386 00:24:43.370 --> 00:24:47.050 and we're so lucky while other people still live in war. And we 387 00:24:47.050 --> 00:24:50.850 rarely take the moment or that time to say we had it 388 00:24:50.850 --> 00:24:54.770 bad, too. Not getting caught up in that victimhood and 389 00:24:54.850 --> 00:24:58.770 finding a place where we feel powerful, that's where. That's 390 00:24:58.770 --> 00:25:02.630 where I want to sort of be part of that narrative, because I. Always consider 391 00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:06.550 it to be a extreme privilege to have been raised 392 00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:10.070 and brought up in the country in which I was born, with a language, with 393 00:25:10.070 --> 00:25:13.950 a culture where my parents resided. To suddenly 394 00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:17.670 find yourself transported effectively the other side of the world, 395 00:25:18.550 --> 00:25:22.470 where your, Your. Your language is not understood, you don't understand the 396 00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:26.190 other language. Maybe, maybe you've got some understanding of English or French, 397 00:25:26.190 --> 00:25:30.190 whichever part of Canada you're in, but it's not inherently part 398 00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:34.190 of your first language. Also, you've probably left behind a 399 00:25:34.190 --> 00:25:37.910 career, a profession. You could be a doctor, a lawyer, 400 00:25:38.070 --> 00:25:41.990 a plumber. You could have a 401 00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:45.630