WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:01.240 Foreign. 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.296 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.176 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.696 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.016 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.176 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.736 the status quo and share stories that resonate 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.456 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.376 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.846 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.206 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:19.390 And today is episode 172 00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:23.480 with the title Telling Untold Stories. 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:27.640 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Tracy Stewart. 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:31.616 Tracy is a book coach, editor and founder of 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:35.536 Freshly Press, who is dedicated to amplifying untold 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.400 stories and advocating for diverse voices in publishing. 00:01:39.960 --> 00:01:43.456 When I asked Tracy to describe her superpower, she said it is 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:47.336 championing unheard voices and guiding storytellers to share 00:01:47.360 --> 00:01:50.680 their truth. Hello, Tracy. Welcome to the show. 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:55.496 Thanks for having me. Delighted to have the opportunity to chat with you in 00:01:55.520 --> 00:01:59.000 a bit more detail than we normally have the opportunity to do on LinkedIn. 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:03.216 Yes. Yeah, I think we bumped into each other probably four or five months ago, 00:02:03.240 --> 00:02:06.520 didn't we? And we've been talking about 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:11.080 a book. I've got a budding book. I've got podcast poetry, so. 00:02:12.600 --> 00:02:15.000 Looking forward to seeing that come to life. 00:02:15.790 --> 00:02:19.646 Yeah, well, you will be featured probably in volume two, so. Yeah, I'm looking 00:02:19.670 --> 00:02:23.630 forward to that as well. So whereabouts in the country are you right now? 00:02:23.950 --> 00:02:27.630 Well, I'm actually in France because although I'm British, I live in France. 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:29.310 Yeah. Live in Normandy. 00:02:30.110 --> 00:02:34.046 Wow. Still got the same daylight out the window, so I would have 00:02:34.070 --> 00:02:35.206 never known, so. 00:02:35.230 --> 00:02:36.230 No, I know. 00:02:37.230 --> 00:02:41.166 I think you're probably the first guest in the 172 episodes that has 00:02:41.190 --> 00:02:43.050 actually been based in France. Wow. 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:46.010 There you go. Always upload somewhere. 00:02:46.410 --> 00:02:50.186 Yeah. So, Tracy, one of the reasons we started talking originally 00:02:50.210 --> 00:02:54.066 was, you know, we talk about this, guiding storytellers to 00:02:54.090 --> 00:02:57.386 tell their truth. And I think for the first moment we had a conversation, you 00:02:57.410 --> 00:03:01.306 talked about the publishing industry as a whole, the lack of diversity that's 00:03:01.330 --> 00:03:04.730 there, and the usual suspects. Get in if you like. 00:03:05.130 --> 00:03:05.467 Yeah. 00:03:05.491 --> 00:03:09.050 So how. What. What started this? What ignited your passion to help 00:03:09.390 --> 00:03:12.670 untold authors, if you like untold people, tell their stories. 00:03:14.670 --> 00:03:18.606 I guess about 10 years ago I, which is 00:03:18.630 --> 00:03:22.606 when I moved over to France, I'd stopped working, doing my old job in 00:03:22.630 --> 00:03:26.166 the city. That was a very traditional career. And I had the 00:03:26.190 --> 00:03:30.046 opportunity to go and work with a small publishing house, independent 00:03:30.070 --> 00:03:33.966 publishing house, remotely supporting authors. From 00:03:33.990 --> 00:03:37.746 that I ended up building a business which I started with two other 00:03:37.770 --> 00:03:41.626 women. And we were really wanting to 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:45.226 focus on giving authors who never usually had the 00:03:45.250 --> 00:03:49.026 opportunity to get their books in front of large audiences 00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:52.946 to be able to get publishing opportunities or to promote their 00:03:52.970 --> 00:03:56.786 books better, differently, all of those things. And it really 00:03:56.810 --> 00:04:00.546 stemmed from the fact that the books we were looking at and publishing 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:04.466 originally were, were all largely you know, traditional, middle 00:04:04.490 --> 00:04:08.090 class, white, you know, not, not terribly 00:04:08.250 --> 00:04:12.250 reflective of society and certainly not telling stories that 00:04:12.650 --> 00:04:16.570 we were experiencing in everyday life and needed to be told, 00:04:16.650 --> 00:04:20.346 needed to be amplified. So that was really the cause was, was looking 00:04:20.370 --> 00:04:23.466 at, you know, I've been a book buyer all my life, but looking at it 00:04:23.490 --> 00:04:27.370 from the other perspective made me realise just how many stories 00:04:27.450 --> 00:04:31.216 effectively don't make the cut with publishers because they're often 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.856 not brave enough to take on stories that are different. I 00:04:34.880 --> 00:04:38.856 presume there's also the imposter syndrome of many people would 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:42.856 have me an author. No, really, no one's going to 00:04:42.880 --> 00:04:46.656 be interested in what I have to say. So you must find that the 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.496 barrier there is one, getting someone to actually have their story 00:04:50.520 --> 00:04:54.460 and want to do something with it and secondly, getting someone who's prepared. 00:04:54.530 --> 00:04:55.570 Prepared to publish that. 00:04:56.210 --> 00:04:59.970 Yeah. And there are several steps in between and after. 00:05:00.290 --> 00:05:04.050 Very often imposter syndrome is a huge barrier. People 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:07.946 wanting to write, they want to, they know they've got a good story, they want 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:11.466 to be able to get it out into the world, but they, you know, they 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:15.226 go through that. Who am I to tell my story? Or they might start to 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:19.026 write it and then not know where to go with it. Because all 00:05:19.050 --> 00:05:22.856 books have a certain flow, we might not realise it, but 00:05:22.880 --> 00:05:26.000 as humans we like to have stories told in certain, 00:05:26.960 --> 00:05:30.616 you know, in certain flows, in certain ways, you know, to reach peaks and 00:05:30.640 --> 00:05:34.496 troughs at different times. And so when, when you're an inexperienced 00:05:34.520 --> 00:05:38.376 writer, when you're trying to get your story down, it's very difficult to know 00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:42.160 what that pathway is initially. But equally 00:05:42.320 --> 00:05:46.080 then being able to have the confidence to approach 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.036 agents or to approach publishers. How do you go about doing 00:05:50.060 --> 00:05:53.356 that? How do you learn how to do that? I mean, there were lots of 00:05:53.380 --> 00:05:57.236 free resources on the Internet, but Sometimes they offer conflicting advice. 00:05:57.260 --> 00:05:59.580 So there are lots of different 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:04.460 barriers really for people being able to get in and often 00:06:04.700 --> 00:06:08.636 for people with disabilities, for example, which is 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:12.436 something I'm really passionate about, they actually don't 00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:16.116 have proper access to be able to use 00:06:16.140 --> 00:06:19.820 computers in the same way as you or I may be able to do it. 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:24.220 People may have issues with blindness, with colours, with 00:06:24.700 --> 00:06:28.556 dyslexia, people may have issues of not being able to use their hands 00:06:28.580 --> 00:06:32.476 easily to type or write. And all of those things present barriers 00:06:32.500 --> 00:06:36.436 as well. So there are difficulties and challenges to be faced, 00:06:36.460 --> 00:06:40.036 not just in the idea of writing or having the 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:43.390 confidence to write, but also in the physicality of getting 00:06:43.950 --> 00:06:45.046 something written as well. 00:06:45.070 --> 00:06:49.006 It's also a cost barrier, isn't it? Because it's to 00:06:49.030 --> 00:06:52.270 do it properly. I don't know what properly means, but 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:57.046 there's sub editing, editing, design, marketing, 00:06:57.070 --> 00:07:00.750 all those various aspects aren't free 00:07:00.830 --> 00:07:04.406 because people have to earn a living doing this. So that can also be a 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:08.316 barrier to people maybe with non traditional backgrounds, maybe don't have the financial 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:11.060 resources or wealth to embark on this process. 00:07:11.380 --> 00:07:15.300 Yeah, absolutely. Whilst now you can 00:07:16.420 --> 00:07:20.276 much more easily publish, self publish, using, you 00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:24.020 know, the usual suspects at Amazon off the digital, 00:07:24.100 --> 00:07:27.340 there are lots of different platforms now and ways in which you can self publish. 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:32.076 If you self publish something that hasn't had the right attention 00:07:32.100 --> 00:07:35.700 beforehand, as you rightly point out, you know, the editing process, 00:07:36.290 --> 00:07:40.106 the COVID the fact that the layout is done correctly, all of those 00:07:40.130 --> 00:07:43.946 things, then actually when you present that to market, although 00:07:43.970 --> 00:07:47.090 it costs you nothing to put it onto Amazon, 00:07:48.930 --> 00:07:52.786 you're actually providing a product that is not fit for 00:07:52.810 --> 00:07:56.770 purpose, it's not fit for market and in some ways isn't respectful of 00:07:57.170 --> 00:08:00.826 the reader, the buying public. So yeah, the cost is 00:08:00.850 --> 00:08:04.706 definitely an issue as well because everybody in the chain, 00:08:04.730 --> 00:08:08.730 and I'll call it a chain because it is, everybody in that chain has to 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:12.570 earn a living somehow. And ultimately the writer wants to 00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:16.586 earn an income, if not a living from the books that 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:20.346 they're writing. You know, there's, there's, you know, if you take, there's 00:08:20.370 --> 00:08:24.186 one, one big gold coin and that act, that gold coin has to be 00:08:24.210 --> 00:08:27.770 split in so many different ways before ultimately, as a 00:08:28.010 --> 00:08:31.666 published author, you can get the royalties in the end. So it's not an 00:08:31.690 --> 00:08:33.186 easy process to navigate. 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:35.329 I also, I'm just thinking about my own 00:08:36.689 --> 00:08:40.265 authorial, authorial, if that's a word, ambitions. I'm kind of a 00:08:40.289 --> 00:08:44.145 pragmatist because I know many people who've published books or even I 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:47.625 Know people who publish tens of books and some of them have achieved what we 00:08:47.649 --> 00:08:50.985 call bestselling author, genuine Sunday Times. Someone who is 00:08:51.009 --> 00:08:54.785 incredibly a bestselling author rather than a screenshot of an 00:08:54.809 --> 00:08:58.625 Amazon page on day three after their launch. It's not easy to 00:08:58.649 --> 00:09:00.759 become celebrated authority. 00:09:01.390 --> 00:09:05.246 It's not, it's not at all. And for various reasons, you know, there's a 00:09:05.270 --> 00:09:09.046 huge number of books now in the market. It's, it's quite a saturated 00:09:09.070 --> 00:09:12.806 space. While self publishing has given an opportunity 00:09:12.830 --> 00:09:16.270 for many people to get their work out, 00:09:16.829 --> 00:09:20.326 it means that there is so many more options for 00:09:20.350 --> 00:09:24.006 buyers in terms of what they, they can read. And if you don't have a 00:09:24.030 --> 00:09:27.956 big marketing budget or if you, you don't have the opportunity to 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:31.940 be picked up by national newspaper or, you know, a 00:09:32.180 --> 00:09:35.300 Richard Book club or whatever it may be, 00:09:35.860 --> 00:09:39.540 actually getting recognition is incredibly difficult. 00:09:39.620 --> 00:09:43.300 Incredibly difficult. I think a lot of it comes 00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:46.876 back down to why you're wanting to write. Some people 00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:50.876 genuinely just want to write to get their story out there, to share their 00:09:50.900 --> 00:09:54.566 experience. It's about knowing who your target 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:58.510 audience really is. Because you can't be everything to everybody. And really 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:02.246 finding your niche and finding people who are going to be 00:10:02.270 --> 00:10:06.046 genuinely interested in your story is an important aspect. 00:10:06.070 --> 00:10:09.790 Because if you can nurture, you know, a community 00:10:10.510 --> 00:10:14.326 of people who are wanting to hear your 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:17.870 story and who are able then to talk to others about your story, 00:10:18.540 --> 00:10:22.196 you know, that helps the process. It definitely 00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:26.076 isn't easy. And we've all done it, haven't we? We've all bought books on, you 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:29.836 know, Waterstones, Amazon looked at something. Do we go back and review 00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:33.836 it very often not. Because, you know, inherently we're often quite 00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:37.580 lazy about doing things like that. And one thing that readers really 00:10:37.900 --> 00:10:41.900 can do to support authors is to review a book they've written. Because 00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:45.740 unfortunately, the algorithm on social media on, 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:50.140 on all the big platforms, big publishing platforms, they only work 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:53.980 on the basis of somebody having a review 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:57.956 or having a, you know, a rating against their book. 00:10:57.980 --> 00:11:01.076 So one of the things I always try and encourage anyone who reads a book 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:04.516 to do is actually go in and take the trouble to enjoy it and review 00:11:04.540 --> 00:11:04.860 it. 00:11:04.940 --> 00:11:08.940 And as you're thinking now, I'm thinking because my publishing 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:13.316 ambition is kind of very vocational, very around what I do, what I talk 00:11:13.340 --> 00:11:16.580 about. So it's more a business 00:11:16.900 --> 00:11:20.636 outcome or associated with business. But there's 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:24.660 also, I guess there's people who are having their voice heard, who 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:28.516 are novelists, who are science fiction writers, who are maybe even 00:11:28.540 --> 00:11:29.716 comic writers or whatever. 00:11:29.740 --> 00:11:32.900 It May be, yeah. And this is one of the things that 00:11:33.540 --> 00:11:36.956 is a huge challenge for the industry, but a huge 00:11:36.980 --> 00:11:40.916 frustration for writers is that particularly those with 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:44.876 disabilities are probably the ones that are left 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:48.676 behind in the culture of publishers and agents trying 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:52.436 to bring wider representation and diversity in 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:56.260 publishing. Lgbtq, the 00:11:56.420 --> 00:12:00.316 writers of colour, they have tended to have more 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:04.156 opportunity. They still don't have enough, but they had more 00:12:04.180 --> 00:12:08.116 opportunity than writers who have disabilities. One 00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:11.800 of the clients I've worked with have seen several years. She 00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:15.976 has been writing fiction and poetry practically 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.976 all her life. You know, she's received awards for it. She's 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.400 won a Hemingway prize and was included in 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.496 the Hemingway anthology. And yet her 00:12:27.520 --> 00:12:31.456 novels, because they include disabled 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.320 protagonists, are not being picked up. But you're getting lots of 00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:38.250 comments back about the quote, quality of the writing, 00:12:39.770 --> 00:12:42.730 how wonderful and interesting the storylines are. 00:12:43.610 --> 00:12:47.266 But we have yet to find a publisher 00:12:47.290 --> 00:12:51.130 brave enough to take on a story with a disabled character 00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:55.690 as the principal character in the book. And 00:12:57.530 --> 00:13:01.530 it is a challenge, a real challenge for 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:05.130 many writers and across all different types of 00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:08.420 disability and all different types of, 00:13:09.300 --> 00:13:13.276 you know, challenges that people face. The industry largely, 00:13:13.300 --> 00:13:16.716 and there's been quite a lot of research done into this in the last few 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:20.516 years, the industry largely is speaking to and publishing 00:13:20.540 --> 00:13:24.180 for, you know, a white middle class audience. 00:13:24.980 --> 00:13:28.756 And the industry is making decisions about 00:13:28.780 --> 00:13:32.636 what it sees as being commercial and it 00:13:32.660 --> 00:13:36.466 doesn't feel yet when it's not brave enough 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:40.346 in very many instances to try something a bit different. And 00:13:40.370 --> 00:13:44.306 then we've been through this process with writers of colour, with 00:13:44.330 --> 00:13:47.890 writers of LGBTQ literature. 00:13:48.130 --> 00:13:51.970 It took so long to start to get those stories out there 00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:55.010 and there's still a long way to go for sure. 00:13:56.290 --> 00:14:00.266 So we talked about, I asked you earlier about the costs and you talked 00:14:00.290 --> 00:14:03.866 about the big gold coin and everyone's got to try and earn a living out 00:14:03.890 --> 00:14:06.686 of this. No one's doing it for free. So when you're about here is publishers 00:14:06.710 --> 00:14:09.790 are reluctant to take the risk is where they would maybe 00:14:10.670 --> 00:14:14.366 take, assume some of that cost, financial cost of the editing process, the 00:14:14.390 --> 00:14:17.710 publishing process and take that burden off of the author 00:14:18.430 --> 00:14:21.790 rather than expect them to have to fund all that themselves and take the risk. 00:14:22.350 --> 00:14:26.206 It's a bit like venture capitalists. We know that many female founders, many 00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:29.870 people with disabilities, aren't getting the investment for venture capital 00:14:30.430 --> 00:14:33.560 Raft and the publisher to be our venture capital 00:14:33.880 --> 00:14:37.000 investing in our book. And that's what you're saying the challenges people 00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:40.816 perceive there to be a market isn't that strikes me as there's a bit of 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.520 chicken and egg. There is no market, therefore we can't. But 00:14:44.760 --> 00:14:48.456 because we can't, there is no market. And it's kind of, we need to break 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.480 through that. 00:14:49.560 --> 00:14:53.416 And that's a really good analogy about the publishers being the venture 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.840 capitalists for authors, for sure. And the thing is, 00:14:57.730 --> 00:15:01.546 I genuinely believe that there is a market, you know, that people, 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.330 if you look, if you, if you read in newspapers, in 00:15:05.410 --> 00:15:09.410 magazines or if you look at what people are watching on tv, 00:15:09.810 --> 00:15:13.250 people are really interested in stories 00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:17.906 that bring a different perspective to life, that 00:15:17.930 --> 00:15:20.930 something that is different from our own lived experience. 00:15:22.050 --> 00:15:25.730 And they want to know these stories, they're interested 00:15:26.150 --> 00:15:30.006 in these stories. But unless there 00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:33.990 is some way in which a publisher 00:15:34.070 --> 00:15:37.430 sees that they've almost got a ready made audience, 00:15:38.310 --> 00:15:42.245 they're very unwilling to take on books that 00:15:42.269 --> 00:15:46.166 are different. I mean they're even unwilling, if you look 00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:49.670 at it in this perspective, they're unwilling to take books which are 00:15:50.710 --> 00:15:54.686 very, very well written crime novels for example, that are 00:15:54.710 --> 00:15:56.950 in a, you know, written by a normal 00:15:59.510 --> 00:16:02.806 person like me, you know, who comes along, just, you know, has a good idea 00:16:02.830 --> 00:16:06.686 for a story, writes a story and sends it off. They, 00:16:06.710 --> 00:16:09.830 they get so many of those types of 00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:13.886 solicitations. They, they don't, you know, they take on a very, very 00:16:13.910 --> 00:16:17.846 small percentage. And so often, you know, we go off and we self 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:21.826 publish. But there's a, even for books where there's a market, there 00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:25.570 is not enough capacity or courage within 00:16:25.650 --> 00:16:29.546 publishing houses now to take on someone who doesn't 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:33.010 have an established following. Very rare. 00:16:33.650 --> 00:16:37.466 So as an author, particularly as an author 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:40.426 with a form of disability or from an 00:16:40.450 --> 00:16:43.810 underrepresented part of the community, 00:16:45.410 --> 00:16:49.010 they've also got to work on building their audience 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:52.970 before they even get to the stage of presenting their work 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:56.890 to an agent or publisher. Because they want 00:16:57.050 --> 00:17:00.906 agents, publishers, they all want some form 00:17:00.930 --> 00:17:04.746 of, you know, partial guarantee if you like, that there are 00:17:04.770 --> 00:17:08.585 people out there already wanting to buy this book. And that's a 00:17:08.609 --> 00:17:10.170 difficulty, that's a challenge. 00:17:11.370 --> 00:17:15.346 Yeah, I've, I've spoken to, I suppose you would call them 00:17:15.370 --> 00:17:19.066 book coaches, which not, not too dissimilar to yourself. And I've been 00:17:19.090 --> 00:17:22.810 quoted between 10 and 20,000 for 00:17:23.530 --> 00:17:26.330 depending on how light touch, you know, guided 00:17:27.370 --> 00:17:31.306 toward, you know, how much I want them involved in the process. And 00:17:31.330 --> 00:17:34.986 that's just to get the book to a publisher, not actually do the publishing and 00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:38.066 then do the marketing and the branding and all that kind of stuff. So it's 00:17:38.090 --> 00:17:40.106 probably, I don't know, I'm just guessing off the top of my head. Let's pick 00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:44.090 a number. 30,000 pound to get from A to B. 00:17:44.890 --> 00:17:47.866 And it each book doesn't make that much money, does it? There's not a huge 00:17:47.890 --> 00:17:48.930 amount of money in books. 00:17:49.170 --> 00:17:52.466 No, there's not. You know, there isn't. There really isn't a huge amount of money 00:17:52.490 --> 00:17:56.130 in books. There are ways in which you can earn a living, 00:17:56.210 --> 00:17:59.946 but it's very rare that it's purely from the books you've 00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:03.866 written. You know, you tend to have as a writer, you often have a sort 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:07.330 of portfolio career. So you'll do some commercial writing. You might be 00:18:07.570 --> 00:18:11.170 journalists part, you know, you might also be content writing 00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:14.280 or copywriting in those types of 00:18:14.840 --> 00:18:18.696 situations. So it's very rare that someone earns solely from 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.536 the books that they've written. It can happen, you know, if a series 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:26.360 gets auctioned and gets put to market through Netflix or 00:18:26.520 --> 00:18:30.296 Apple TV or something like that. But purely from writing a 00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:33.720 book. No, it's a challenge. And this is where 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.036 one of the things that I always look to do with freshly press was find 00:18:38.060 --> 00:18:41.756 a way to be affordable. Because nobody I 00:18:41.780 --> 00:18:45.596 know, you know, has 30 grand sitting in their back pocket to use 00:18:45.620 --> 00:18:49.300 that, you know, picked out the air sum to to even get a book 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:53.060 ready to go to an agent or publisher. 00:18:53.300 --> 00:18:57.236 It's just not practical. Yeah. And there are other ways that, that you 00:18:57.260 --> 00:19:01.220 can support people to help them write. Memberships, there are 00:19:01.300 --> 00:19:04.996 writing hours or writing groups. There are lots of different 00:19:05.020 --> 00:19:08.836 ways in which you can help. But ultimately to package a book, 00:19:08.860 --> 00:19:12.500 to get it to market, whether that's to self publish or to 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:15.860 put it to an agent or an independent publisher, 00:19:16.580 --> 00:19:19.940 there is a certain amount of polishing that has to be done at the end 00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:24.436 to make it viable. And publishers also are, 00:19:24.460 --> 00:19:28.076 they don't have the wherewithal that they used to have to do a lot of 00:19:28.100 --> 00:19:31.996 the editing. You know, the big publishing houses, if you're one of their 00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:35.916 bigger authors, then they'll have an editor and you know, it'll 00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:39.220 look something like we all thought the traditional model of 00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:43.196 publishing does and should look like. But there are an 00:19:43.220 --> 00:19:47.076 awful lot of people who, even if they publish with Penguin 00:19:47.100 --> 00:19:50.996 Random House, you know, they have that little logo on the side of their 00:19:51.020 --> 00:19:54.100 book. But what they don't have is a huge lot of support 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:58.260 around that book, particularly once it's published, because 00:19:58.580 --> 00:20:00.500 marketing budgets are really small. 00:20:00.580 --> 00:20:03.510 Yeah, it's the best route to self publish 00:20:04.790 --> 00:20:08.566 and then hope that gives you a kind of a cv. 00:20:08.590 --> 00:20:12.486 If you like to go to a publishing house with is it better to do 00:20:12.510 --> 00:20:15.990 one yourself. Or is it better to say let's not come out early, 00:20:16.790 --> 00:20:19.830 let's go straight for publishing house because if I come out badly 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:23.750 then I'm going to be judged on that first piece of work. What's the guidance? 00:20:24.070 --> 00:20:27.926 I really wish there was a right answer, but honestly there 00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:31.270 isn't one size or one route that fits all because 00:20:32.550 --> 00:20:35.830 authors have lots of different needs. I mean, some of the authors I work with, 00:20:36.310 --> 00:20:39.830 you know, are from a neurodivergent background. 00:20:40.310 --> 00:20:44.206 And so the prospect of actually self publishing and 00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:47.350 having to deal with inquiries, with 00:20:47.830 --> 00:20:51.350 arranging all the interviews, with reaching out to 00:20:52.310 --> 00:20:56.230 podcasters or book reviewers, you know, it's just not something that 00:20:56.780 --> 00:21:00.380 they're able to do. It's an incredibly stressful, 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:06.076 potentially stressful situation for them to find themselves in and they don't want 00:21:06.100 --> 00:21:09.420 to be connected necessarily contacted directly by people. 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.940 So for them an agent is often, 00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:17.740 you know, a much more appropriate route and a route that gives them 00:21:18.780 --> 00:21:22.716 a lot less stress. But it costs more to 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:26.296 go down that route and it takes longer. I mean the thing with self publishing 00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:30.096 is it's super fast as you can literally get your book 00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:33.960 up and within, within a week you, you, you're rolling. Some 00:21:34.040 --> 00:21:37.480 authors do get picked up from self publishing 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.496 because one of the things that some of the bigger publishing houses and other agents 00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:45.496 do now is that they're looking to see what's coming up, what's selling in 00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:48.440 the self published charts and then they're approaching, 00:21:49.560 --> 00:21:53.336 they're approaching authors from that direction, which is something that would 00:21:53.360 --> 00:21:57.236 never have happened a few years back. So 00:21:57.260 --> 00:22:01.116 I think there are positives, absolutely there are positives from going down 00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:05.116 the self publishing route and there are some authors that have never done 00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:07.780 anything but self published and are multi million 00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:12.276 sellers. But what they've done is they've been very smart and very 00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:16.236 savvy about the way that they've self published. So 00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:20.236 there isn't a right or a wrong route. I'm a firm believer 00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:23.996 that you choose the route that is right for the 00:22:24.020 --> 00:22:27.860 author because not authors operate and 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.460 have the same skill sets. I've got some wonderful 00:22:33.540 --> 00:22:37.380 authors that I work with who are well aged, 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:41.116 I think we'll say, and they're vintage, vintage 00:22:41.140 --> 00:22:44.716 skills. They're vintage, absolutely. And they write 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:48.516 cracking books. But their skills in dealing with all the minutiae 00:22:48.540 --> 00:22:52.290 of self publishing and you know, marketing side of things, 00:22:52.530 --> 00:22:56.530 that's not their bag. They just want to write. So for them 00:22:56.610 --> 00:23:00.466 going down a straight self publishing route would, would be a challenge if they 00:23:00.490 --> 00:23:04.306 didn't have someone to Support them along that line. So it's 00:23:04.330 --> 00:23:08.306 multi layered. It's multi layered. And also a 00:23:08.330 --> 00:23:12.146 lot of the things, you know, using. Using platforms to 00:23:12.170 --> 00:23:16.170 self publish is often not accessible to 00:23:16.250 --> 00:23:19.210 writers with disabilities because the 00:23:20.090 --> 00:23:23.786 logistics themselves, you know, lining everything up 00:23:23.810 --> 00:23:27.666 and making sure that the book is uploaded in the right way and then it 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:31.530 goes off and you have all these different boxes to tick. You know, 00:23:31.930 --> 00:23:35.786 somebody with visual impairments is not going to be able to manage 00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:39.770 that. And someone who finds it difficult to work keyboard or 00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:43.196 hold a pen finds that very difficult as well. 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:47.076 Yeah, you're talking about. It's really hard as a. As a 00:23:47.100 --> 00:23:50.836 minority person, if you come from a minority background, to get published. You 00:23:50.860 --> 00:23:54.596 mentioned specifically people with disability. We are seeing good 00:23:54.620 --> 00:23:58.356 representation of black queer authors because they have their own 00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:02.196 communities. I guess it resonates with. As you're talking about that, I was thinking 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:06.020 about just looking at everyday television, BBC, Netflix, whatever it is, 00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:11.030 and you see many black led TV 00:24:11.270 --> 00:24:15.190 series, documentaries, films, whatever it may be. Again, queer stuff. 00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:20.166 As you're talking, I'm thinking. I'm just trying to think where the series 00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:24.046 is centred around a person with a disability, such as a wheelchair 00:24:24.070 --> 00:24:28.006 user, such as an amputee or whatever it may be. There's sort of 00:24:28.030 --> 00:24:31.686 representation in programmes like Silent 00:24:31.710 --> 00:24:35.430 Witness with Liz Clark. Yeah, Liz Clark. And 00:24:35.510 --> 00:24:39.406 the newer series we're going back in Time, show My Age. Ironside 00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:43.366 was a detective who was a wheelchair user. But we 00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:47.270 don't see strong TV representation, which 00:24:47.750 --> 00:24:51.350 presumably that helps. What's the opposite of fuel? Extinguish 00:24:52.150 --> 00:24:55.926 demand. Because we're not seeing those lived experiences being. I hate the word 00:24:55.950 --> 00:24:59.650 normalised, but becoming everyday every day. 00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:01.410 Visual associations. 00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:05.570 We shouldn't. We shouldn't see these books or these TV 00:25:05.730 --> 00:25:09.706 series or films as being something special. They should 00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:13.626 be just part and parcel of 00:25:13.650 --> 00:25:17.306 everyone's experience, because they are. It's a 00:25:17.330 --> 00:25:21.250 conversation and I think. Was the guest you had last 00:25:21.330 --> 00:25:25.106 week Charlie. Charlie Hunt, Charlie Hart. 00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:28.630 Yeah, yeah. And she was talking about the fact that, you know, having 00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:32.406 labels, you know, being ADHD or being 00:25:32.430 --> 00:25:35.110