WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.510 And today is episode 173 with title 19 00:01:19.210 --> 00:01:23.130 inclusion Starts With Recruiters. And I have the absolute honour and 20 00:01:23.130 --> 00:01:27.010 privilege to welcome Jo. Major Jo is transforming the recruitment 21 00:01:27.010 --> 00:01:30.810 industry by equipping professionals with the tools and mindset 22 00:01:30.970 --> 00:01:34.490 to embed equity and inclusion at every stage of the hiring process. 23 00:01:35.130 --> 00:01:38.770 When I asked Jo to describe her superpower, she said it is inspiring 24 00:01:38.770 --> 00:01:42.330 recruiters to care more deeply and to think differently 25 00:01:42.570 --> 00:01:45.860 about people. Hi, Jo, welcome to the show. 26 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:50.940 Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me. I should say welcome 27 00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:54.820 back because we did actually record this episode with two 28 00:01:54.820 --> 00:01:58.820 months ago and silly me, I was in 29 00:01:58.820 --> 00:02:02.820 the cutting room studio and I cut too deep 30 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:06.580 on the track and erased you and I gave you a rather 31 00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:10.540 sheepish email back and said, I'm really sorry, do you forgive me? And you've 32 00:02:10.540 --> 00:02:14.540 said anything to have another chat with you, that's fine. Yes, exactly. This 33 00:02:14.540 --> 00:02:17.680 is a privilege to get to do do this all over again. 34 00:02:18.640 --> 00:02:22.400 Another conversation, and it's been so long since we actually recorded that I 35 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:26.000 really don't remember the conversation. So it's a ideal opportunity to 36 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:29.680 maybe update our thinking based on some of 37 00:02:30.160 --> 00:02:34.000 the BS that's going on in the world right now and some of the challenges 38 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.520 that recruiters are still facing. What a difference a month makes, 39 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.680 right? It is, yeah. I mean, what difference breakfast 40 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.600 makes on one day? You know, you start by eating your bowl of cereal and 41 00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:49.560 then by the time you finished it, you're no longer enfranchised in the 42 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:53.200 country. Yeah, stuff happens really 43 00:02:53.200 --> 00:02:56.840 rapidly. We live in very, very interesting times. 44 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.960 So you hang out predominantly in the recruitment space and 45 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.880 it's mainly what, I guess agency recruiters rather than in house. Is it? 46 00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:09.960 It's more of a mix now. But when I launched the business, my 47 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:13.930 mission was to support the recruitment industry 48 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:18.970 just because of the responsibility I felt and 49 00:03:18.970 --> 00:03:21.690 saw that the recruitment industry had and also 50 00:03:23.130 --> 00:03:27.130 the power it has given, how much it's responsible 51 00:03:27.130 --> 00:03:30.490 for in terms of the job markets and moving people around. 52 00:03:31.130 --> 00:03:35.090 So that. Yeah, that's where it all started. And that's my sweet 53 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:38.850 spot as well. Having been an agency recruiter for such a long time, 54 00:03:38.850 --> 00:03:42.830 over 17 years, it felt like a sensible move to start in 55 00:03:42.830 --> 00:03:46.830 a space where I was familiar and I also could use myself 56 00:03:46.830 --> 00:03:50.750 as that kind of case study because I'd. Although I was 57 00:03:50.750 --> 00:03:54.590 an ethical recruiter, those ethics had been built in me from day 58 00:03:54.590 --> 00:03:58.550 one. I didn't really understand anything about inclusion and accessibility 59 00:03:58.710 --> 00:04:02.550 and equity. It was just that kind of natural part of 60 00:04:02.550 --> 00:04:06.550 me that wanted to do the right thing by humans and for humans 61 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:10.270 to have a good experience of me, but without that kind of that 62 00:04:10.270 --> 00:04:13.160 technical knowledge and. And confidence. 63 00:04:14.440 --> 00:04:18.360 That makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. And I did work in the 64 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.640 recruitment sector as well as, you know, and I see so many 65 00:04:22.280 --> 00:04:25.800 just talk about agency recruiters here wanting to be 66 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.920 ethical. They wanted to do the right thing, they wanted to 67 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:33.720 create opportunities for everybody because, let's be honest, it 68 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:37.520 makes good business sense as well, you know, broaden your. Yeah, it's hard 69 00:04:37.520 --> 00:04:41.120 finding good talent to give to clients on your slate of 70 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:45.020 options. So it does make sense. But I still get frustrated 71 00:04:45.020 --> 00:04:48.740 sometimes. It is a bit performative. It's almost like a tick. Yes. 72 00:04:48.820 --> 00:04:52.020 We're a diverse and inclusive recruitment organisation. 73 00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:55.700 It seems to be a bit of. A trend that, doesn't it? It does, yeah, 74 00:04:55.940 --> 00:04:59.460 yeah, yeah. Some of them are. I think the will is that, 75 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:03.820 and I think a lot of them have taken more of 76 00:05:03.820 --> 00:05:07.580 an interest in D and 77 00:05:07.580 --> 00:05:11.470 I because they've been held accountable for it from 78 00:05:11.470 --> 00:05:15.030 their clients. It's not unusual for a recruitment business to approach 79 00:05:15.510 --> 00:05:19.390 me, as I'm sure you've experienced this as well, when something's gone 80 00:05:19.390 --> 00:05:23.350 wrong when it comes to the commercial side of it, they've been kicked 81 00:05:23.350 --> 00:05:26.950 off a preferred supplier list or they've been 82 00:05:26.950 --> 00:05:30.870 rejected for, you know, for a big retained project that 83 00:05:30.870 --> 00:05:34.790 they were going for because they've not been able to demonstrate their experience, inclusive 84 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:38.790 recruitment competency and capability. There 85 00:05:38.790 --> 00:05:42.750 is a. There is a lot of. There's a lot of talk. There is some 86 00:05:42.750 --> 00:05:46.750 box ticking stuff. Unfortunately, you know, we get as much box ticking in 87 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:50.390 the recruitment industry as we do in the employer space. I think one of the 88 00:05:50.390 --> 00:05:53.670 biggest challenges is the 89 00:05:54.950 --> 00:05:58.950 capacity and the resources to be able to actually 90 00:05:58.950 --> 00:06:02.310 change the hiring model that recruiters use. And I think 91 00:06:03.510 --> 00:06:07.350 if you look at, you know, the metrics that recruiters are measured 92 00:06:07.350 --> 00:06:11.150 on the environment that they've got to, you know, got to 93 00:06:11.150 --> 00:06:14.710 work in, given a, you know, for example, from a, from a time 94 00:06:14.790 --> 00:06:18.710 perspective, it's not supportive of a proper 95 00:06:18.790 --> 00:06:22.670 inclusive recruitment process unless you're doing or operating 96 00:06:22.670 --> 00:06:26.070 a retained model. It's very, very different to class 97 00:06:26.150 --> 00:06:29.830 recruiters who are their successes measured and their 98 00:06:30.090 --> 00:06:34.090 performance is rewarded based on time to hire and speed and it 99 00:06:34.090 --> 00:06:37.370 may be minimal human resources, you know, and 100 00:06:37.610 --> 00:06:41.490 maximum output and then asking them to then integrate 101 00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:45.450 inclusion and accessibility and equity into that process, to change 102 00:06:45.530 --> 00:06:49.450 the way they hire, to change the way that they make 103 00:06:49.450 --> 00:06:53.450 decisions, to change, to add extra layers into that 104 00:06:53.450 --> 00:06:57.130 process. This is difficult for them to kind of understand 105 00:06:57.290 --> 00:07:00.930 because they've got all these other responsibilities going on around them and 106 00:07:00.930 --> 00:07:04.550 they're like, we need to slow things down and they're like that. That doesn't make 107 00:07:04.550 --> 00:07:07.750 sense to us. We need to speed things up. I get it, I get that. 108 00:07:09.030 --> 00:07:12.510 One of the questions I often when I'm having conversations, not just with recruiters, other 109 00:07:12.510 --> 00:07:16.310 organisations, is what are you doing for yourselves? You are trying 110 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:18.870 to offer these services to your clients, 111 00:07:20.070 --> 00:07:23.790 but look in the mirror yourself to start with. What are your own 112 00:07:23.790 --> 00:07:27.110 processes? What does your demographic look like? How can you evidence? 113 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:31.740 Because if you're trying to show a better way to your client 114 00:07:31.900 --> 00:07:35.700 and you're not matching that, that lacks the authenticity, doesn't it? I think sometimes 115 00:07:35.700 --> 00:07:38.940 we're recruits themselves are very narrow demographic. 116 00:07:39.580 --> 00:07:43.419 Yeah, absolutely. I think representation is a real challenge for the 117 00:07:43.419 --> 00:07:47.220 recruitment industry. It never fails to fascinate me as to 118 00:07:47.220 --> 00:07:50.740 why we have such a, you know, a 119 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:54.640 diverse talent pool as an industry and yet we are pretty. We 120 00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:58.560 can be one dimensional as an industry ourselves and we don't. We 121 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:02.440 are not representing the communities that we're here to serve 122 00:08:02.440 --> 00:08:06.120 and to recruit, recruit for as our clients and to place. 123 00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:10.080 And I think that creates a lot of invisible 124 00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:14.040 barriers for the recruitment industry and our success. You know, we often 125 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.800 wonder why certain roles, certain areas, certain certain 126 00:08:17.880 --> 00:08:21.720 areas of expertise are hard for us to recruit. And it's like, well, 127 00:08:22.310 --> 00:08:26.190 do your recruiters reflect the talent pool that you're wanting to bring 128 00:08:26.190 --> 00:08:29.190 into the organisation? Usually 129 00:08:29.750 --> 00:08:32.870 that's a hard no. And I think that 130 00:08:33.590 --> 00:08:37.510 we've moved on from an industry where the 131 00:08:37.510 --> 00:08:41.230 key factor that we looked for in skillset was the 132 00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:45.150 ability to sell. And I think now that what we're 133 00:08:45.150 --> 00:08:48.550 working with is the ability to develop relationships, 134 00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:52.530 to have the expertise of hiring strategy, 135 00:08:52.530 --> 00:08:56.410 a market Job marketing strategy, to be able 136 00:08:56.410 --> 00:08:59.890 to think strategically, to understand how a business 137 00:08:59.890 --> 00:09:03.810 operates, to understand how all those pestle factors impact 138 00:09:03.810 --> 00:09:07.770 our clients and our industry and the movement of candidates. And I 139 00:09:07.770 --> 00:09:11.730 think that now more than ever we need true business partners 140 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.490 and true talent consultants who properly 141 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:19.060 consult. Because I, I think we're moving away while tech's replacing 142 00:09:19.060 --> 00:09:22.980 recruitment as a process. And if we, you know, this, this continual, if 143 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:26.980 we're continually selling the basics, I think that's where we're really 144 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:30.900 gonna struggle. And I, I don't want the recruitment industry to 145 00:09:30.900 --> 00:09:32.700 just be a place for young 146 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:38.140 homogenous groups. It should be a career for 147 00:09:38.140 --> 00:09:42.020 everybody. There's no barriers to getting into it. So why do we all look the 148 00:09:42.020 --> 00:09:45.500 same? And I think a lot of that is down to the, the working environment 149 00:09:45.500 --> 00:09:48.220 and the culture and the stereotype that we've buil. 150 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:53.680 I remember a friend of mine who, you know, Bill Borman always said to me, 151 00:09:53.680 --> 00:09:56.760 nobody leaves school to aspire to be a recruiter. 152 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:01.960 It's one of those careers you kind of, Most people, I don't want 153 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.560 to stereotype. Most people drop into, they got a salesy background, they've got this 154 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:09.080 background or they somehow get into recruitment. Somehow. 155 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.520 Is that part of the problem? People naturally gravitate 156 00:10:13.400 --> 00:10:16.940 and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Recruiters 157 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:20.860 attract recruiters in their image and it's how to break that image down. 158 00:10:21.660 --> 00:10:25.180 Yeah. Isn't it sad that such an interesting 159 00:10:25.180 --> 00:10:28.980 career path is seen as something that you fall into? You 160 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:32.940 know, why do people not choose to go into recruitment when 161 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:36.820 recruitment itself can be an incredible profession and an 162 00:10:36.820 --> 00:10:40.460 incredible career? And it's like I said, it's something that you don't 163 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:44.210 necessarily, you know, the barriers to it, the entry and 164 00:10:45.170 --> 00:10:49.090 the entry levels to it are relatively straightforward to get 165 00:10:49.090 --> 00:10:52.130 into. So. But I think it's because we built this 166 00:10:52.530 --> 00:10:56.490 caricature of ourselves and in reality, who want, 167 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:00.330 who would ever want to step into that as a role? And 168 00:11:00.330 --> 00:11:03.970 it's my belief as well that we're seen as a temp, as a stepping stone, 169 00:11:04.930 --> 00:11:08.450 you know, a role that I might do for a temporary amount of time. 170 00:11:09.170 --> 00:11:12.690 And it's like why, why, why has it become so 171 00:11:12.690 --> 00:11:16.080 transactional? Why have we created this career 172 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:19.960 opportunity where you come in and then you go out and you, you 173 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.440 know, when you tend to come in at a certain point in your life and 174 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.080 you tend to leave at certain point in your life, you know, why, why are 175 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.080 we not professionalising the recruitment industry enough so it actually 176 00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:33.120 becomes a, you know, a genuine career option? 177 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:38.320 And I think A lot of it is, like I said, this sales caricature when 178 00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:42.320 my belief has always been that, you know, we. Yes, it is sales 179 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:46.300 to a degree, but it's also a lot more technical. You know, 180 00:11:49.020 --> 00:11:52.940 you can sell a concept. Can you sell human beings 181 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:56.660 with their own minds and their own behaviours and their own, their own 182 00:11:56.660 --> 00:12:00.220 agendas? That's really difficult. Yeah, because it's. 183 00:12:00.780 --> 00:12:04.700 If you talk about sales, you know, the high street sales would be 184 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:09.220 cars, used or brand new cars. You've got estate 185 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:13.180 agents, letting agents, those are the sort of caricatures that pop into your head. 186 00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:17.530 But we've got to realise that people are not inanimate objects, are they? They're all 187 00:12:17.530 --> 00:12:20.730 unique, they're all different in the same way. A second hand car I guess is 188 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:24.970 unique to a, to that car. You're trying to find a 189 00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:28.850 fit with it. But humans are different. I think often do. We think as 190 00:12:28.850 --> 00:12:32.810 recruiters there's a whole evolution. You 191 00:12:32.810 --> 00:12:36.730 know, I look at the recruitment industry, the sourcing people who source they are 192 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:40.620 technical geniuses with searching and the deep research and 193 00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:44.500 investigators. It's a unique skill in their own just sourcing, 194 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:48.340 finding candidates, finding opportunities for people. Then you've got 195 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:51.540 workforce planning, you've got OD teams, you've got 196 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:56.500 talent management, talent development. All that kind of fits 197 00:12:56.500 --> 00:13:00.100 under the TA banner if you like. In a big 198 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:04.060 organisation, agency recruits is just a small element of that. 199 00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:07.920 It's the combination of sourcing, placing and 200 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:12.040 evaluating candidates, isn't it? But in a whole strategy, Chris, are far 201 00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:14.720 more than that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think 202 00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:19.400 I'm seeing. It's interesting, isn't it? Which I'm just reflecting on what you just said 203 00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:23.120 then. It's like you have like a, you've got a 204 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.640 very, very interesting dynamic career 205 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:30.520 path as an internal recruiter because there are so many moving 206 00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:34.410 parts to it. And yet as an agency recruiter 207 00:13:34.650 --> 00:13:38.450 I feel that there's just, you know, there is just one, one pathway. 208 00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:42.290 I mean some would argue you could do client facing or you could 209 00:13:42.290 --> 00:13:46.090 do candidate facing or you can manage people or you don't have to manage 210 00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:49.970 people, you can build out divisions. But it's strange how we just see it maybe 211 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.930 as this like one dimensional role instead of actually 212 00:13:54.170 --> 00:13:58.060 investing in the professional developer development 213 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:02.060 of our recruiters to go from that, you know, that 214 00:14:02.140 --> 00:14:05.660 job specification piece to the recruitment, 215 00:14:05.660 --> 00:14:09.460 marketing, talent attraction, you know, through to the, 216 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:12.980 you know, to the, to the filling of the roles. And actually why are we 217 00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:16.980 not, how on earth are we not sitting down with recruiters and talking to Them 218 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:20.620 about organisational design, workforce planning, 219 00:14:20.620 --> 00:14:24.620 dynamic employer brand development, EVP development 220 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:28.510 and all of that. All of that human stuff, all of that. The 221 00:14:28.510 --> 00:14:32.350 things that are instrumental in attracting and 222 00:14:32.350 --> 00:14:36.030 retaining great people. Why do we. Why are we still just 223 00:14:36.030 --> 00:14:38.950 plugging into the very basics of what a recruiter does? 224 00:14:39.910 --> 00:14:43.710 You mentioned earlier about the consultative approach. That's where 225 00:14:43.710 --> 00:14:47.350 every agency recruiter wants to be. They want to be seen as a value add, 226 00:14:47.350 --> 00:14:51.190 not just a shifter. Yeah. Oh, yeah, 227 00:14:51.190 --> 00:14:54.880 we add value. We do this. I think what you just said there is what 228 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.400 a lot of agencies, and I'm not criticising anybody here is what they're not doing 229 00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:02.000 is they're not interfacing to the business at a strategic level. 230 00:15:02.400 --> 00:15:06.360 They're just fulfilling a hiring manager's desire. I want 231 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:10.320 this without asking why or can we help? Or can we. 232 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:14.040 Can we understand your brand values better? So we can. We can look at the 233 00:15:14.040 --> 00:15:17.880 candidate profile, as you say, the evp, the recruit marketing based 234 00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:21.280 on who you are, rather than just putting out this bland. 235 00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:25.640 I want a Java developer, I want a DevOps programme or whatever 236 00:15:25.640 --> 00:15:28.960 it may be without understanding the context of the brand. 237 00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:32.880 I think a lot of it has got. We've also got to think about, like, 238 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.640 who's created this and I do think it is. It's the fact that 239 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:40.360 recruitment agencies are devalued, I think, by a lot of 240 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.320 clients that, you know, paying them an awful lot of money just to source 241 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:48.260 CVs. Essentially. It's not unusual for me to sit 242 00:15:48.260 --> 00:15:51.980 down with recruiters and for them to, you know, we talk about the, you know, 243 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:55.940 the job brief stage and for them to not even be able 244 00:15:55.940 --> 00:15:59.540 to have a meeting with a client about the job, let 245 00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:03.420 alone meet the hiring manager, let alone get more than 10 246 00:16:03.420 --> 00:16:07.060 minutes with them. And yeah, that client's paying for a service. 247 00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:11.780 The payer, you know, they could be paying anything from 5, 10, 15 248 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:14.960 to. Depends on what rates are. And yet 249 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.040 the relationship between the recruiter and the client 250 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:24.080 is. Said it before, is so transactional, 251 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.280 you might as well. Well, you will be able to. You might as well just 252 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.960 feed in a command into a piece of recruitment technology 253 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:36.400 and pay it 10k. And this is. And I do think 254 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:40.090 the recruiters have got. They've got. We need to think 255 00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:44.050 about how do we actually change the perception of 256 00:16:44.050 --> 00:16:48.010 where we fit in to the talent attraction strategy. It's. 257 00:16:48.010 --> 00:16:51.610 We can say that we are. We add value and we're trusted 258 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:55.530 partners and splash all that stuff across the, you know, our websites, but 259 00:16:55.610 --> 00:16:59.290 that won't be happening with each and every role that we've got in. 260 00:16:59.610 --> 00:17:03.010 There'll be a degree of that, but not with all of them. So how do 261 00:17:03.010 --> 00:17:06.590 we change that relationship between hiring manager and 262 00:17:06.590 --> 00:17:10.430 client and recruiter and for us to truly be seen as business 263 00:17:10.430 --> 00:17:14.390 partners? I believe it's when we start to evolve and change our services and 264 00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:18.390 what we actually do and what we actually consult on. Because taking 265 00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:21.870 a job brief over a five minute conversation with a client 266 00:17:22.110 --> 00:17:25.870 is not consultation, it's not advisory 267 00:17:25.870 --> 00:17:29.790 work, it's not expertise. It's something that could be picked up 268 00:17:29.790 --> 00:17:33.390 like that by recruitment technology and it's my belief that it will be. 269 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.960 Yeah, certainly you look at some of the ATSs and some of the AI integrations 270 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.320 out there, the platforms are doing a lot of this work for you. And 271 00:17:41.800 --> 00:17:45.320 Even the way LinkedIn is changing its recruitment platform within LinkedIn 272 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.400 it's making it more easy to self serve, more easy for candidates to 273 00:17:49.560 --> 00:17:53.400 amplify themselves and look at fit better. And yeah, I 274 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.280 think we're seeing an evolution where if not careful agencies will just be 275 00:17:57.280 --> 00:18:00.000 a, it will just be going back to being a bucket shop if they can't 276 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.870 elevate into that consulting. Do the hiring teams want that? Does the 277 00:18:03.870 --> 00:18:06.950 in house hiring manager actually want the agency 278 00:18:07.590 --> 00:18:11.270 to consult or are they forcing them into that transactional 279 00:18:11.270 --> 00:18:14.990 relationship? It's a good question, isn't it? It's almost like we've got to do a 280 00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:18.230 PR job on a lot of the industry and change this perception. 281 00:18:19.270 --> 00:18:22.830 I think it will take recruiters talking to hiring 282 00:18:22.830 --> 00:18:26.230 managers about something different and this is 283 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:30.320 where I feel that I really try to push the 284 00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:33.960 whole DE&I and inclusive hiring 285 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.880 expertise as your USP. For us to actually 286 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.760 keep on top of trends, for us to truly understand 287 00:18:41.800 --> 00:18:45.400 all the factors that are influence that, that are influencing 288 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.160 our clients hiring decisions, the stuff that's truly keeping them 289 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.920 awake at night. Because I sometimes listen to, you know, go to the conferences 290 00:18:53.080 --> 00:18:57.000 and nobody ever really talks about what's keeping clients awake at night. And 291 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.240 when they do it's like where did you get that from? Because that's not an 292 00:19:00.630 --> 00:19:04.590 a deep dive survey. It's understanding trends and understand actually 293 00:19:04.590 --> 00:19:08.510 sitting down with an organisation at the beginning of the year and asking them a 294 00:19:08.510 --> 00:19:12.070 question about where they want to be from a diversity and demographic 295 00:19:12.070 --> 00:19:15.790 perspective. What, where it, what's their weak points in their hiring 296 00:19:15.790 --> 00:19:19.590 strategy? What upskilling do their hiring managers need? What about, 297 00:19:19.590 --> 00:19:23.470 you know, without even being invited to do it, doing a, 298 00:19:23.470 --> 00:19:26.630 you know, an audit of their website and their careers page, 299 00:19:27.530 --> 00:19:31.370 you can easily access your client's job descriptions at the click of a 300 00:19:31.370 --> 00:19:35.370 button and critiquing them and rebuilding 301 00:19:35.370 --> 00:19:39.370 them and saying, I know you've not asked me to do this, 302 00:19:39.450 --> 00:19:42.290 but I've done it and I'd really like to have a chat with you about 303 00:19:42.290 --> 00:19:45.770 the results. It's that kind of like proactive. And for some reason 304 00:19:45.770 --> 00:19:48.090 recruiters are terrified of stepping into 305 00:19:49.050 --> 00:19:52.930 EDNI and recruitment because they think it's political. We 306 00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:56.690 know it's political, but they see it as this conversation that they've not been invited 307 00:19:56.690 --> 00:20:00.250 to. They don't see it as an enhancement of their 308 00:20:02.330 --> 00:20:06.170 service capability. And that for me is, you know, is, 309 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:09.930 is, is wild. You know, if TA is saying we 310 00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:12.890 can't make decisions on CVs because 311 00:20:13.530 --> 00:20:17.450 candidates are using technology far too much and 312 00:20:17.530 --> 00:20:21.410 Instead of having five CVs that fit the bill, we 313 00:20:21.410 --> 00:20:25.250 have 500 CVs that are a perfect match of the 314 00:20:25.250 --> 00:20:29.130 JD. And we don't, we cannot shortlist. Why are 315 00:20:29.130 --> 00:20:33.050 the recruiters in that conversation going in and going, shall 316 00:20:33.050 --> 00:20:36.810 we have a conversation around how we can change the sifting 317 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:40.810 process? What can we do to. Why don't 318 00:20:40.810 --> 00:20:44.130 we do a pilot where we take the CV out of the process? Let's look 319 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:47.820 at the other things that we can do to help you with this. And I 320 00:20:47.820 --> 00:20:50.940 don't know whether or not they just feel that it's out of their capability or 321 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:54.940 it's, you know, I think there is this tendency to stick 322 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:58.460 to what we've done over the last 10, 20, 30 years instead of 323 00:20:58.860 --> 00:21:02.220 really ramping it up and being at the same level as the tech 324 00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:04.940 providers trying to kick us out. 325 00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:08.460 I'm going down rabbit hole with this, but. 326 00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:14.700 You'Ve probably must have worked more hiring managers than I have in my time at 327 00:21:15.330 --> 00:21:18.850 Are we, Are we setting this hiring manager up 328 00:21:19.330 --> 00:21:22.610 as some sort of super expert on talent management 329 00:21:23.170 --> 00:21:26.930 branding diversity? Often a hiring manager in my 330 00:21:26.930 --> 00:21:30.610 experience has been a department head or someone in a department who 331 00:21:30.930 --> 00:21:34.770 has an empty seat or wants to grow his team or her team 332 00:21:34.930 --> 00:21:38.610 or their team, and they may not 333 00:21:38.610 --> 00:21:42.610 hire daily, they may hire once or twice a year or maybe every 334 00:21:42.610 --> 00:21:46.540 other year. They're not necessarily match fit in the hiring process. 335 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:51.700 Should, should our agencies, should our external recruiters be 336 00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:55.580 interfacing at a different level in organisation? Interfacing with the DNI team, interface with the 337 00:21:55.580 --> 00:21:59.420 HR team, interfacing with marketing and branding or a general 338 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:03.260 talent overview team and encouraging the 339 00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:07.140 organisation to maybe have professional hirers? And 340 00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:11.110 that's a TA business partner, for one of a better way of describing it, where 341 00:22:11.110 --> 00:22:15.030 people are professional recruiters. In house as well. Because I think too 342 00:22:15.030 --> 00:22:18.790 often the hiring manager is an amateur hirer. They're a professional 343 00:22:18.790 --> 00:22:22.670 person but an amateur. Hire a recruiter, right. Their job isn't a recruiter and 344 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:26.590 they, you know, you're right, you get, they're often given that role that 345 00:22:26.590 --> 00:22:30.510 you know, through promotional or hiring in and not actually 346 00:22:30.510 --> 00:22:34.310 given the skill set. And so the ideal scenario 347 00:22:34.310 --> 00:22:38.110 for me would be to, you know, to even just 348 00:22:38.110 --> 00:22:41.950 send check the basic capacity of hiring managers and see 349 00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:45.950 that as an opportunity to, you know, as recruiters we 350 00:22:45.950 --> 00:22:49.910 claim that we are experts in interviewing. What can 351 00:22:49.910 --> 00:22:53.630 we do to share that expertise and also just 352 00:22:54.030 --> 00:22:57.990 being able to audit the capability of the TA team and seeing 353 00:22:57.990 --> 00:23:01.910 whether or not we can bring in our professional services that way. There's 354 00:23:01.910 --> 00:23:05.870 often pain points, there's often, you know, gaping holes in a, 355 00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:10.160 in our clients recruitment and TA playbook and again 356 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.000 we pride ourselves on being recruitment and TA experts. 357 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.640 What are we doing to be able to seek to identify where 358 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.240 help may be needed and then adapting our services accordingly and 359 00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:25.920 moving towards offering a whole suite of professional services 360 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.920 that go beyond just advertising a role, emailing out the 361 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.770 database and going through the recruitment process. Not to simplify 362 00:23:34.770 --> 00:23:37.890 the hiring process because I know it's a lot more than that and I don't 363 00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:41.530 want people throwing rocks at me after they've listened to the test. But I get, 364 00:23:41.530 --> 00:23:44.690 you know, I get it's more than that but I think that we're not even 365 00:23:44.690 --> 00:23:48.690 having the conversation Joanne around. This is what 366 00:23:48.690 --> 00:23:52.490 we do and these are our capabilities. Have you ever thought about 367 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:55.890 working with us in a slightly different way? Is it worth 368 00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:59.810 exploring? Is that nudging into the RPO space where we are trying to 369 00:23:59.810 --> 00:24:03.480 be the outsourced partner on this rather than an 370 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.520 arm's length agency that is that, is that the blurring 371 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.000 occurring there? I mean maybe we will see more capability 372 00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:15.160 building through, you know, in that RPO offering. 373 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.759 I've heard, you know, I've heard noise around 374 00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:23.800 that being, you know, being, being a thing. But then I 375 00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:27.720 guess, you know, an RPO model's not, it's not what. 376 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:31.830 They're really good on paper, right? They're really good on 377 00:24:31.830 --> 00:24:35.830 paper and they work for some organisations but they 378 00:24:35.830 --> 00:24:39.750 often don't deliver on their promises. It's not this transformational 379 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:43.790 silver bullet that we always expect it to be. And I don't think you 380 00:24:43.790 --> 00:24:47.350 necessarily need, you know, an all singing, all dancing kind of like 381 00:24:47.350 --> 00:24:51.270 RPO model. I just think it's about just in 382 00:24:51.270 --> 00:24:55.190 its most basic form, just thinking about 383 00:24:55.350 --> 00:24:59.270 what level of expertise You've got in your organisation what's 384 00:24:59.270 --> 00:25:03.270 missing, bringing it in and then packaging it up. So 385 00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:06.990 you are almost that one stop shop 386 00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:12.190 for everything modern recruitment needs. 387 00:25:12.270 --> 00:25:15.550 You know, you've got. You know, you've got tech capability. 388 00:25:16.110 --> 00:25:19.870 You know, recruiters, I feel, need to be recruitment technology 389 00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:23.830 experts. Right. I know if some recruitment businesses who are not, you 390 00:25:23.830 --> 00:25:27.600 know, where things like ChatGPT are getting banned and they're not 391 00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:31.080 allowed to use things like Otter AI, and they're actually being moved away 392 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:35.200 from recruitment technology instead of embracing it. If it was. 393 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.600 If I ran a recruitment business today, I'd be sending all my recruiters out, 394 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:42.840 I'd be getting them trained fully on the. They'd know 395 00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:45.960 everything about the future impact of AI and recruitment technology. 396 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.440 I would be wanting them to be the people who have conversations 397 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:54.200 about where clients can go to and talk to them about that stuff. Not every 398 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:57.860 recruiter, it's not realistic, but a person within the organisation 399 00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:02.100 whose side hustle is AI and technology in 400 00:26:02.100 --> 00:26:05.900 recruitment. Yeah, I agree. I think if you're not using things like 401 00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:09.700