WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:17.710 And today is episode 175 19 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.400 with the title Brave Learning, Bold Leadership. 20 00:01:22.720 --> 00:01:26.000 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Pippa O'Brien. 21 00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:29.520 Pippa is a learning innovator and founder of Proda, 22 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.720 transforming how frontline teams experience inclusion through immersive 23 00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:37.640 drama and authentic conversations. And when I asked Pippa 24 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:41.360 to describe her superpower, she said, it is turning everyday people 25 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.430 into empowered learners to through real world storytelling. 26 00:01:45.750 --> 00:01:49.550 Hello, Pippa. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for 27 00:01:49.550 --> 00:01:53.390 inviting me. I feel really privileged and honoured to be the 28 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:57.390 guest on episode 175. I'm in very safe 29 00:01:57.390 --> 00:02:00.870 hands, clearly. And looking at your nails, I think 30 00:02:00.870 --> 00:02:04.830 beautifully manicured. Safe hands as well. Mine are under the table 31 00:02:04.830 --> 00:02:08.630 for a reason. Not so manicured. Right? Beautiful. 32 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:13.640 Oh, thank you. We met probably 18 months 33 00:02:13.720 --> 00:02:17.320 ago. Must be to work with Tallis, wasn't it? We did a 34 00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:21.280 storytelling. I was one of your protagonists in a 35 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.160 story, wasn't I? Yes, definitely. And then we took that input 36 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.000 and we used it for some drama where we 37 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:32.960 showcased what allyship should and could look like and 38 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:36.640 involved the learners in feeding lines to the 39 00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:40.360 actors so they could be really fully immersed and involved in 40 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:44.180 the story as well. Well, yeah, and it was all around transgender 41 00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:47.980 inclusion, if I remember rightly, with. And my wife Marie was involved and we. We 42 00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:51.780 did a kind of a dual perspective on workplace and how she 43 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:55.780 felt and how I felt, which is quite powerful, wasn't it? It was really powerful. 44 00:02:55.780 --> 00:02:59.700 And I think one of the lessons that that organisation took from that 45 00:02:59.700 --> 00:03:03.300 session was, yes, it could be transgender, it could be 46 00:03:03.380 --> 00:03:07.220 any other situation that somebody is facing in their life 47 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:11.020 and that there's no playbook out there that covers every possible 48 00:03:11.180 --> 00:03:15.100 scenario that could be going on. In somebody's life. And actually the 49 00:03:15.260 --> 00:03:18.940 using your and Marie's story, if you like, to set the 50 00:03:18.940 --> 00:03:22.700 scene was so powerful and really thought provoking. 51 00:03:22.700 --> 00:03:26.140 And then in the drama we flipped it and we had 52 00:03:26.780 --> 00:03:30.460 the actor from memory. The scenario that I'd written was a 53 00:03:31.260 --> 00:03:35.140 gay couple where one of the members of 54 00:03:35.140 --> 00:03:39.030 the one partner in that partnership was wanted to transition. 55 00:03:39.190 --> 00:03:41.510 That was the way that we flipped it. And actually 56 00:03:42.950 --> 00:03:46.070 you never know what's going on for people. People show up for work, 57 00:03:47.430 --> 00:03:51.270 they do the best that they can in the moment and what's under 58 00:03:51.270 --> 00:03:55.270 the surface is like this massive iceberg that you just don't see. But it 59 00:03:55.270 --> 00:03:59.190 comes out through people's behaviour. It's what they say and what they do that 60 00:03:59.190 --> 00:04:03.110 gives clues to what's going on to the surface. And quite often that's the 61 00:04:03.110 --> 00:04:07.030 time when somebody needs to reach out and say, when what's happening? Tell me. 62 00:04:07.030 --> 00:04:10.990 And doing so from a position of 63 00:04:11.230 --> 00:04:14.950 where there's trust between the two people and the leadership 64 00:04:14.950 --> 00:04:18.470 behaviour then is really around not just trust, but the 65 00:04:18.470 --> 00:04:22.430 integrity piece as well. Like, I need you to 66 00:04:22.430 --> 00:04:26.270 trust me and I'm going to trust you, but actually I need 67 00:04:26.270 --> 00:04:30.110 you to treat that information with integrity and 68 00:04:30.190 --> 00:04:33.920 be there to support me as a person. Really, that's. That's kind of the 69 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:37.760 message that I wanted to come out from that session. Because we hear 70 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.440 that lived experience talking and stories are 71 00:04:42.440 --> 00:04:45.840 really, really powerful. And they are, yeah. But in my experience, 72 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:50.520 the learning doesn't always occur. I. I don't go 73 00:04:50.520 --> 00:04:54.400 and watch a Netflix or go to the cinema and hear these powerful 74 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:56.720 stories, whether they're real drama or 75 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.600 interpreted, and always take learning away from them. So 76 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.680 what we're going to try and do is take a two dimensional story 77 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:08.360 and create rumination, creating 78 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:13.120 firing points in our brains. And that's where the experiential, 79 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.960 the storytelling with interaction kicks in, isn't it? Totally. 80 00:05:16.960 --> 00:05:20.920 And that's really what we've done with a programme that we've been running 81 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.970 quite recently. And this is, this is 82 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:28.930 something that was really a little bit of a. Well, I'm going to 83 00:05:28.930 --> 00:05:32.410 suggest this, this is a bit out there, if you know what I mean. And 84 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:35.810 I was really expecting the client to come back and go, oh, no, that's. Well, 85 00:05:35.810 --> 00:05:39.690 we couldn't do that. And actually they didn't. They went, okay, let's do it. And 86 00:05:39.690 --> 00:05:43.490 I was okay. So a bit surprised, but also really honoured 87 00:05:43.890 --> 00:05:47.490 that they had trusted me to do a great job for them. And 88 00:05:47.730 --> 00:05:51.170 not just me, but my whole team, the whole team here at Poda and 89 00:05:53.080 --> 00:05:55.960 though their population and workforce, 90 00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:00.560 although there's a number of them who are really highly 91 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.440 qualified professionals, the bulk of their workforce is 92 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:08.640 people who are really skilled but they're manual workers. So they do 93 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:12.400 manual work outside in all weathers. That's pretty 94 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:16.040 unpleasant at times. I'll be honest. The average reading age 95 00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:19.540 for a lot of these operatives is 11. 96 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:23.460 Age 11. So when I was designing something 97 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:26.820 I had to be really mindful that 98 00:06:28.020 --> 00:06:31.900 for whatever reason they had this lower literacy 99 00:06:31.900 --> 00:06:35.740 level but that could be caused by a number of different reasons. But 100 00:06:35.740 --> 00:06:39.620 whatever for, but for whatever reason school had failed them 101 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:43.500 in some way or another or education had failed them. So 102 00:06:43.500 --> 00:06:47.270 putting them in a classroom environment with. And here's slide 103 00:06:47.270 --> 00:06:50.670 199 which just describes the 104 00:06:51.150 --> 00:06:55.070 Equality act of 2010 probably wasn't going to be 105 00:06:55.630 --> 00:06:59.310 the real way forward for this audience. So what we 106 00:06:59.790 --> 00:07:03.590 designed was a programme where from the 107 00:07:03.590 --> 00:07:07.470 moment they arrived they were immersed into a real life 108 00:07:07.470 --> 00:07:11.390 drama, if you want to call it that. We had the characters in the drama 109 00:07:12.990 --> 00:07:16.750 welcoming them. Oh dear, my words got a little bit mumbled up there, 110 00:07:17.980 --> 00:07:21.940 mumbled up, inviting them and welcoming them 111 00:07:21.940 --> 00:07:25.780 and I still can't say it, welcoming them to the session and 112 00:07:25.780 --> 00:07:29.740 then allowing them to observe a meeting where 113 00:07:30.140 --> 00:07:33.820 there was some extremes of opinion being expressed. 114 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:37.820 Okay. And what we asked them to do was just listen and then talk about 115 00:07:37.820 --> 00:07:41.700 it afterwards. Okay, so what did they notice? What behaviours 116 00:07:41.700 --> 00:07:45.680 did they notice, what words did they hear and what did that mean for them? 117 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.640 So how did that resonate with them and their own personal experiences. 118 00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:53.440 So the lived experiences then came from within the room 119 00:07:53.440 --> 00:07:57.200 as much as anything. And we, we really wanted people 120 00:07:57.200 --> 00:08:00.400 who were maybe of a generation, 121 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.160 I think Gen Z, I think is a, is a, is one way to describe 122 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.760 them, to talk about how people have made assumptions about them and what they were 123 00:08:08.760 --> 00:08:12.530 capable of based on their age. We wanted people to talk about gender. We 124 00:08:12.530 --> 00:08:16.530 wanted to talk about people who had and really explore a 125 00:08:16.530 --> 00:08:20.490 whole range of labels really which that people give other 126 00:08:20.490 --> 00:08:24.450 people that are really, that are really about bias, aren't they? You know, 127 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:28.450 there's, there's nothing else to describe it. Oh, there are this, there are that, that's 128 00:08:28.450 --> 00:08:32.450 a label and actually the label is the bias and it can be positive or 129 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:35.610 not so positive. But equally there's something here around 130 00:08:35.850 --> 00:08:39.660 challenging those biases and really reminding people that 131 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:43.580 actually as individuals and as human beings we're always looking 132 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:47.420 to confirm biases unless we actively are challenged on them. 133 00:08:47.660 --> 00:08:51.220 So the data that sticks is the data that confirms the 134 00:08:51.220 --> 00:08:55.180 biases that we already hold and the opinions that we already hold. So. And 135 00:08:55.180 --> 00:08:58.380 that's kind of linked to also. And then with these people we were talking about, 136 00:08:58.540 --> 00:09:02.180 well why is that then? And they were talking about, well, it's social media in 137 00:09:02.180 --> 00:09:05.820 it. You know, we had some great discussions around social media, 138 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:10.560 the role of the press and then moving into allyship and how 139 00:09:10.560 --> 00:09:14.360 to challenge and how to challenge up. And we used our drama team 140 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:18.000 to role play like a more senior member of staff and then how they could 141 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.880 challenge that in a way that was going to be non threatening for 142 00:09:21.880 --> 00:09:25.720 them individually. And we had some great outcomes from that. Really great, 143 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:29.600 some really great conversations. You've got some people that go, no, he's right, 144 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.240 he's wrong and that was it. But everybody else in the room was saying, you 145 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.920 don't think that, do you? Well, yes, I do. And that's great because you're bringing 146 00:09:36.920 --> 00:09:40.740 it all out into the open in one go. The only way we could do 147 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:44.700 that was to create a really safe environment where people felt they could 148 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:47.820 genuinely say what they believe 149 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:52.740 and to be prepared to be challenged by other people in a way that was 150 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:56.500 appropriate. Okay, yeah, we're really pleased with that one. It 151 00:09:56.500 --> 00:10:00.420 landed well. And you can see from my face that we actually really 152 00:10:00.420 --> 00:10:04.420 enjoy doing it as well. And I'm doing it this week for a company down 153 00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:07.900 in Winchester. So I'm quite excited about that. It's one that I love doing. 154 00:10:09.130 --> 00:10:12.570 Yeah, I found, you know, I've run a lot of training sessions on inclusive recruitment. 155 00:10:12.570 --> 00:10:16.410 Inclusive best practise, whatever it may be. And sometimes you walk into the room and 156 00:10:16.410 --> 00:10:20.130 you can see people with their arms folded. You know, I don't want to be 157 00:10:20.130 --> 00:10:24.050 here. This is all a bunch of woke nonsense. And they have 158 00:10:24.050 --> 00:10:27.130 that face on, don't they? And then you do the introductions in a room. Yeah. 159 00:10:27.130 --> 00:10:29.970 And I said, what are you hoping to get out today? And this person's always 160 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:33.970 kind of making some sort of remark about whatever because I have to be 161 00:10:33.970 --> 00:10:37.810 whatever and. But I find that those people do two 162 00:10:37.810 --> 00:10:41.810 things. One is they enlighten the rest of the room as to the importance 163 00:10:41.810 --> 00:10:45.410 of why we're here today. Because they're doing my job there. They're saying, well, I 164 00:10:45.410 --> 00:10:49.370 haven't got to say the anti pushback on this. There's already that person's in the 165 00:10:49.370 --> 00:10:53.290 room. But the second thing that happens is this person becomes 166 00:10:53.290 --> 00:10:56.810 enlightened. Their change in them is far 167 00:10:56.810 --> 00:11:00.690 greater than the change in people who actually get it. So I always 168 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:02.690 come at the end of it. I've had these people come out to me or 169 00:11:02.690 --> 00:11:05.240 at the end of the day, so what have we got out of it? Oh, 170 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.880 I've seen a new perspective and I never really thought about this. And it's like, 171 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:11.560 you think, wow, I've made a 172 00:11:11.560 --> 00:11:15.160 immeasurable difference in this one person. My job is done. 173 00:11:15.800 --> 00:11:18.760 Everybody else got it already. All I've done is nudge them a bit. This person 174 00:11:18.760 --> 00:11:22.760 here went from being uninformed to being embracing it. You think, 175 00:11:22.760 --> 00:11:26.360 wow, how powerful is that? And I think that's what frustrates me. 176 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.080 Sometimes when we have these conversations, we always end up with the echo 177 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.620 chamber in the room, not the people who should be in the room, but who 178 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:36.940 aren't. Do you find it's easier to get people in the room 179 00:11:38.060 --> 00:11:41.420 when you're doing the storytelling and this is role playing, than it would be through 180 00:11:41.420 --> 00:11:45.340 traditional training? 100%. And that's regardless 181 00:11:45.500 --> 00:11:49.300 of the organisational level, if you 182 00:11:49.300 --> 00:11:52.700 like, it's just as powerful at exec level. 183 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:57.260 For example, if we were looking at a DEI programme, 184 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:02.030 then we would start at the top, obviously, and really explore, 185 00:12:02.510 --> 00:12:05.950 well, why is this so important? 186 00:12:06.270 --> 00:12:10.230 But with that team, and then obviously bring in 187 00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:13.789 some data at that point. But also, more importantly, do something around 188 00:12:13.789 --> 00:12:17.550 allyship, because that's their role, that's what they should be doing every single day, 189 00:12:17.790 --> 00:12:21.230 is being the ally for people in their organisation 190 00:12:21.710 --> 00:12:25.650 and making sure that their organisations reflect the communities 191 00:12:25.650 --> 00:12:29.410 and the organisations that they serve as well. And when I see so 192 00:12:29.410 --> 00:12:33.210 many people who. I'm going to use example here of back to the 193 00:12:33.210 --> 00:12:36.890 office, you know, going back to the office and you hear so many people 194 00:12:37.050 --> 00:12:40.810 at exec level that are saying, everybody should work from the office. This 195 00:12:40.810 --> 00:12:44.170 is, you know, the people. And actually, when you look at them, there's a certain 196 00:12:44.170 --> 00:12:47.770 demographic that says that, and typically they would be 197 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:51.130 male, white, probably over 50 198 00:12:51.830 --> 00:12:55.670 now. Yes. For them, I'm sure that going to the office is 199 00:12:55.670 --> 00:12:59.390 structure, it's routine. And then when they get home, there's 200 00:12:59.390 --> 00:13:03.310 somebody who's made sure that their shirts are ready for the next day, that they've 201 00:13:03.310 --> 00:13:07.190 got everything that they need to be for them to be successful, if 202 00:13:07.190 --> 00:13:11.030 you see what I mean, on the. Table, the kids are looked after. Yeah. 203 00:13:11.350 --> 00:13:14.870 The cat has been fed everything else. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And 204 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:18.120 when you. When you look at people who, during 205 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:22.520 lockdown, who were loving it, were the people who had that flexibility 206 00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:26.640 of being able to. To do a bit of work, look after 207 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:30.440 their children, be the best person that they could be for their families, do things 208 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.400 like the school pickup and the things that they just didn't have a chance to 209 00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:36.440 do. And I did a bit of research for a company at the back end 210 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:40.280 of lockdown around whether going back to work was, 211 00:13:40.280 --> 00:13:43.880 was really the way to go, or whether they could actually consider 212 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.920 closing down some of their sites and going to a fully remote model, but 213 00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:51.900 with some hubs where go for meetings, you know, face to face meetings 214 00:13:51.900 --> 00:13:55.220 if needed. I ran some focus groups for them and 215 00:13:55.300 --> 00:13:58.900 universally there was a demographic that was like, 216 00:13:59.140 --> 00:14:02.380 this is brilliant, I love this. I can get up, I can do two hours 217 00:14:02.380 --> 00:14:05.939 work, I get the kids packed, lunches in the bags, I get them to school, 218 00:14:05.939 --> 00:14:09.820 I come back, I do more. And it's. For them, it was just what they've 219 00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:13.620 always needed and just what they've always needed to be able 220 00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:17.540 to be the best person that they can be at work and also 221 00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:20.500 the best person that they can be for their family as well. 222 00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:24.660 Surely that's what organisations need to 223 00:14:24.660 --> 00:14:28.500 ensure is available, is people to have 224 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:32.380 the flexibility of what works for them, but also make sure that 225 00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:36.300 they are. They know how to manage people in 226 00:14:36.300 --> 00:14:39.660 a completely different environment. Because I think a lot of people tried to manage people 227 00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:43.500 as they always had done from home and it didn't 228 00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:47.220 work. So they've all got to come back to the office. Not what we do 229 00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:50.940 needs to change, but. Or the way that we do this needs to change, but 230 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:54.660 let's just take away all the bits that work for a good 231 00:14:54.660 --> 00:14:58.620 percentage of the workforce and impose bits that don't work, you know, 232 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:01.980 so it's like, for me, it's a real fundamental of 233 00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:05.700 flexibility, is that you trust people to do a great job, you 234 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:09.540 explain the why and you're the leader that 235 00:15:09.540 --> 00:15:13.350 they need in order to be the best that they can be. It's quite 236 00:15:13.350 --> 00:15:17.230 simple in my opinion. Yeah. When 237 00:15:17.470 --> 00:15:21.470 I was doing some events, some roundtable type discussions around 238 00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:25.310 the time where we were just about to take our face masks off on 239 00:15:25.310 --> 00:15:28.590 trains, you know, sort of that early stage, remember back in that time, back in 240 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:32.550 that history, and I remember that lots of big companies were trying to 241 00:15:32.550 --> 00:15:36.110 sell their culture. We need to get you back in the office because we've got 242 00:15:36.110 --> 00:15:38.910 our culture, we've got our way of talking, we've got our way of being, 243 00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:43.610 we've got a fantastic culture, we want to. I 244 00:15:44.010 --> 00:15:46.730 took a step back and said, well, hang on a minute, what you're trying to 245 00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:50.490 do me is exchange culture for commute is what you're saying. 246 00:15:51.130 --> 00:15:54.890 You give me, I commute for you and then you give me a culture. And 247 00:15:54.890 --> 00:15:58.250 I said, now, hang on a minute. I want my culture, like my pension. 248 00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:02.290 It's a personal pension, I could take it anywhere. So when I leave you, I 249 00:16:02.290 --> 00:16:06.050 take it with me and go somewhere else. So my personal culture, my family 250 00:16:06.050 --> 00:16:09.820 culture, my community culture should be first. And 251 00:16:10.300 --> 00:16:14.220 your culture is this something I borrow while I'm here. I have 252 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.540 to like it, I have to fit in with it. But I would rather you 253 00:16:17.540 --> 00:16:21.300 encourage me to build community links, to co work in my local 254 00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:25.060 community to have more family time so that my 255 00:16:25.060 --> 00:16:28.860 culture is now my own. And we 256 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:32.740 meet because your culture and my culture meet. But don't tell 257 00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:36.630 me that I have to have your culture because, yeah, you may 258 00:16:36.630 --> 00:16:40.470 have this belief that your culture is amazing, but actually my family is 259 00:16:40.470 --> 00:16:44.190 amazing, my friends are amazing, my hobbies 260 00:16:44.910 --> 00:16:47.110 and I want that time back. I don't want to give you two and a 261 00:16:47.110 --> 00:16:51.109 half hours of commute each direction because that's my time that 262 00:16:51.109 --> 00:16:54.950 I'm giving you for free. 100%. I completely agree with that. And I 263 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:58.710 think that's where having values and actually within an 264 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:02.290 organisation can bridge that gap. Because if you 265 00:17:02.530 --> 00:17:06.370 make values meaningful in people's daily behaviour 266 00:17:06.370 --> 00:17:10.370 in an organisation, that's one way of bridging the gap between 267 00:17:10.690 --> 00:17:14.490 the culture and like personal culture 268 00:17:14.490 --> 00:17:18.410 and organisational culture, if you want to call it that, because it's making 269 00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:21.650 sure that, for example, if you've got a 270 00:17:21.970 --> 00:17:25.730 innovation as a value, which a lot of organisations 271 00:17:25.810 --> 00:17:29.640 do, then if somebody asks a great idea, oh, I've got an idea, the 272 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.280 hand goes out and then you get, no, that's not going to work. Or really. 273 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.960 Or no, then it's. I would 274 00:17:37.120 --> 00:17:40.640 liken that to that whack a mole game. You know, that you get in the 275 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.560 fun fair with the hammer and you get the little mole and you stick your 276 00:17:43.560 --> 00:17:47.480 chin up like that, that's my mole impression for the morning. And then the 277 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.200 manager's there with a hammer, whacking it down. After a while, that mole's going to 278 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.070 go, I'm nice and warm and cosy in my hole. I'm not going to get 279 00:17:55.070 --> 00:17:57.870 up because if I stick my head up, I'm going to get whacked on the 280 00:17:57.870 --> 00:18:01.470 head with a hammer. So that whack a mole culture, 281 00:18:01.870 --> 00:18:05.750 where people say, oh, we believe in innovation. No, 282 00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:09.230 they don't. You've got. If somebody comes up with an idea, then you need to 283 00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:12.870 give it the airtime, explore it. It might not work in that 284 00:18:12.870 --> 00:18:16.750 circumstance, but you've got to be really clear with the person, why not? Rather 285 00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:20.190 than just that dismissal piece because the one 286 00:18:20.270 --> 00:18:24.150 idea that that little mole may have in the future, that could be the 287 00:18:24.150 --> 00:18:28.110 salvation of whatever, that you're never going to hear it because they're never going to 288 00:18:28.110 --> 00:18:31.830 tell you. And that's what I mean about living values and 289 00:18:31.830 --> 00:18:35.550 bringing values to life. Yeah, it's not always a bad idea. Because 290 00:18:36.430 --> 00:18:40.390 if you were to enlighten the person who came up with that thought that 291 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:44.230 didn't work for whatever reason as to the reasons why right 292 00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:48.150 now it doesn't work, then they go, I get that now let me have 293 00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:52.070 small thinking. Correct. Because one person's thought isn't always one 294 00:18:52.070 --> 00:18:55.900 person's thought. A lot of people are often thinking the same thing. I mean, 295 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:58.980 I look at what the government do and think that's crazy. Why are they doing 296 00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:01.700 that? I look at what's going on across the water in the States, I think 297 00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:05.580 that's crazy why they're doing that. Maybe there's information, I don't 298 00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:09.020 know, the media, the military, 299 00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:13.140 there's data, there's awareness, there's briefings that politicians 300 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:17.100 have, there's big think tanks going on. And my 301 00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:20.980 bias says I know better because I'm more intelligent, I'm cleverer. That's 302 00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:24.460 not a bias I have. We all have that. So we're almost saying, well, that 303 00:19:24.460 --> 00:19:27.780 they don't know what they're doing. They must be less intelligent than me. 304 00:19:28.260 --> 00:19:31.460 But we've got to accept that they have some good ideas as well. That I 305 00:19:31.460 --> 00:19:34.780 don't know is why they think that. And that's what I need to know if 306 00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:38.500 they tell me. Actually, Joe, the reason we're doing this, the reason we're 307 00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:42.500 invading that country and it looks to be a little bit one sided here, is 308 00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:46.460 because there's some threat intelligence that we see that you 309 00:19:46.460 --> 00:19:49.540 don't. Okay, now I get it. So 310 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:53.900 if we listen to people's ideas and dismissing them, we need to give them the 311 00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:57.380 why. Because if you tell me the why, I can challenge your why with, 312 00:19:57.540 --> 00:20:01.500 huh, how about this? And maybe that's what people don't want. They don't want the 313 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:05.380 debate, do they? They don't want the debate. And I think also there's this 314 00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:09.220 I know better than you syndrome as well, which goes back to trust. 315 00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:13.220 And I think, I think I know nothing about government, please, 316 00:20:13.300 --> 00:20:17.210 but accept what I see and hear and read like everybody else. 317 00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:21.010 But equally what I do know is I struggle to trust 318 00:20:21.010 --> 00:20:24.610 people that don't do what they say they're going to do. And if, 319 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:28.930 if you want people to, to accept what you 320 00:20:28.930 --> 00:20:32.930 say because you know facts and information that can't be revealed, whether 321 00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:36.290 that's within an organisation or. Or nationally or 322 00:20:36.290 --> 00:20:40.130 internationally. Globally. You have to prove that you are trustworthy 323 00:20:41.020 --> 00:20:45.020 because why would you trust somebody that says one thing and then does something else? 324 00:20:45.340 --> 00:20:49.340 Okay, so it's around building a culture that's based 325 00:20:49.660 --> 00:20:53.660 on trust. And then people might not 326 00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:57.580 like what you do. They may not fully understand the reasons, 327 00:20:57.580 --> 00:21:01.100 but if they trust that you are a leader with integrity, 328 00:21:01.660 --> 00:21:04.300 then they will go with it and they'll buy into it. 329 00:21:06.090 --> 00:21:10.090 Because I think worse than being told there's a reason, I can't tell you. 330 00:21:10.330 --> 00:21:12.730 It's like, oh, so I'm not worthy of 331 00:21:15.610 --> 00:21:19.530 that. I'm aloof here. I've got stuff you don't 332 00:21:19.530 --> 00:21:23.330 know. So I guess sometimes you can't be told that you don't know something 333 00:21:23.330 --> 00:21:26.890 you don't know. It's trying to sell that, as you say in a trust. 334 00:21:27.130 --> 00:21:31.130 I look at the government in opposition or the 335 00:21:31.130 --> 00:21:34.980 potential government, all the politicians sit there going, making these 336 00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:38.340 really wacky statements about, oh, yeah, we cut this, we do this and we do 337 00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:41.860 that. When they get into power, they go, actually, now, now we've got the books 338 00:21:41.860 --> 00:21:44.940 open, we see the data. Actually, we know we can't now, but we can't say 339 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:48.900 we didn't. Yeah, yeah, we can't tell. That's really difficult as well. And I 340 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:52.380 think often when you look at. When you observe, think, 341 00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:56.140 particularly the UK Parliament, I 342 00:21:56.140 --> 00:22:00.010 find it's not about debate, it's just about mudslinging 343 00:22:00.010 --> 00:22:03.930 and almost playground behaviours as well, which I think devalues 344 00:22:03.930 --> 00:22:07.890 the whole process. There's no. There's no structured debate. It's 345 00:22:07.890 --> 00:22:11.290 just who can slag the other party off with the greatest 346 00:22:11.290 --> 00:22:15.050 panache in the moment. You know, it's like, it's point scoring but 347 00:22:15.290 --> 00:22:18.410 not real points, if. If you see what I mean, it's not about the topic, 348 00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:21.450 it's about. It's about visibility. 349 00:22:23.210 --> 00:22:26.730 That's my perception. Public school debate society of the past, isn't it? 350 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.880 Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's. And 351 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.840 I think our media don't help either. The media, the mainstream media, social 352 00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:38.800 media, they like this polarisation because polarisation creates tribes. 353 00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:42.520 Tribes create revenue and advertising and clicks and 354 00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:46.360 discussions and people get fired up because unless we have emotion 355 00:22:46.360 --> 00:22:50.360 attached to a thought, it doesn't happen, does it? You know, we have to. 356 00:22:50.360 --> 00:22:54.210 Negative or positive emotions, they mean. He knows that negative emotions 357 00:22:54.690 --> 00:22:58.290 are stronger than positive emotions. So it drives. It drives 358 00:22:58.290 --> 00:23:02.210 engagement. This is it. And if you look at a technique, say, like transactional 359 00:23:02.210 --> 00:23:06.090 analysis where you've got, you know, people that are behaving adult to adult, which is 360 00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:09.930 rational, listening, giving and giving. It doesn't make for 361 00:23:09.930 --> 00:23:13.730 great tv. Let's be fair. It's when you've got people who are acting 362 00:23:13.730 --> 00:23:17.610 as like the critical parent with the finger out or where you've got 363 00:23:17.610 --> 00:23:21.250 people who have been in child. I don't like this. That under foot stamping 364 00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:25.120 that's what makes for good watching. Anything in the middle ground is just. 365 00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:28.400 Is sensible, rational and maybe not so 366 00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:33.960 appealing. Yeah, there's a couple of. An 367 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.800 author I quite enjoy reading is Ricker Bregman. He's 368 00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:41.560 done two books that I really found inspiring. One is Utopia for Realists which is 369 00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:45.440 a great read if you've not read it. Humankind. 370 00:23:45.520 --> 00:23:49.450 Humankind is. It's about analysing the human being 371 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:53.330 and the human psyche. It really summed up the whole idea 372 00:23:53.330 --> 00:23:57.250 of reality TV and what happens is in these scenarios, you know, who 373 00:23:57.250 --> 00:24:01.250 wants to be. I'm sorry to get me out of here. Big Brother or Love 374 00:24:01.250 --> 00:24:04.810 Island. What they found was these would be very 375 00:24:04.810 --> 00:24:08.810 benign, very controlled. If you just put a 376 00:24:08.810 --> 00:24:12.170 group of people in the room, they'll get on largely they'll get on, they'll have 377 00:24:12.170 --> 00:24:15.890 a good time. They'll start forming little communes and Kumbaya and sitting around the 378 00:24:15.890 --> 00:24:19.260 campfire. You say not great telly. So what they have to do is they have 379 00:24:19.260 --> 00:24:23.220 to starve them. They have to put a. A grenade in there like a. A. 380 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:26.540 A rogue personality who's going to disrupt. They're gonna have to create a love interest, 381 00:24:27.020 --> 00:24:30.860 a power base, create a. Create a leader who has power that 382 00:24:30.860 --> 00:24:34.460 others don't like. Suddenly you've got. You've got this disrupted human 383 00:24:34.620 --> 00:24:38.620 environment that creates great telly and then so they have to prod the bear 384 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:42.620 and the beast to make it. To make it interesting. Otherwise 385 00:24:42.620 --> 00:24:46.160 people will just go so what we assume that people are 386 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.240 antagonistic and aggressive towards each other, but that's manufactured by the media. 387 00:24:51.040 --> 00:24:54.640 Agree. And I think in most cases I think yes and 388 00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:58.800 I think I would say that manufactured by the media. But I think 389 00:24:58.800 --> 00:25:02.800 in face to face, 100% I agree. I think the challenge 390 00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:06.720 comes now with social media where people say. Feel that they can 391 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.640 say all sorts of chisel, which is a technical term, 392 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.800 all sorts of chisel with. Under the COVID of. Of. Of being a 393 00:25:14.800 --> 00:25:18.560 keyboard warrior and they don't have to actually sit in front of somebody 394 00:25:18.560 --> 00:25:21.840 and say well I think this, that and the other because in the real life 395 00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:24.520 they wouldn't actually Risk that 396 00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:28.520 antagonistic behaviour because it could be risky for them. 397 00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:32.480 It's the old who's the bigger dog in the pack type scenario. You know, 398 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.080 they might get bitten back, but on a keyboard they can be as unpleasant as 399 00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:40.080 they wish. Yeah, I mean, we're recording this on 31 March 2025, which 400 00:25:40.080 --> 00:25:43.750 is trans day of visibility. And as a, 401 00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:47.710