WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.240 And this is episode 177 with the 19 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:22.160 title Empowering Through Routine. And I have 20 00:01:22.160 --> 00:01:26.120 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Ed Johnson. Ed is a 21 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.880 tech entrepreneur and the CEO and co founder of URoutine, 22 00:01:30.440 --> 00:01:34.440 driven by a passion for empowering people through structure, goals and 23 00:01:34.440 --> 00:01:38.240 inclusive design. When I asked Ed to describe his superpower, 24 00:01:38.240 --> 00:01:41.880 he said it is being fueled by purpose. He builds 25 00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:45.630 systems that help people thrive to self motivation and 26 00:01:45.630 --> 00:01:49.270 meaningful accountability. Hello, Ed, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:50.150 --> 00:01:53.270 Thank you very much. Wonderful to be here. Excited about our conversation? 28 00:01:53.990 --> 00:01:57.710 Yeah. And we were just chatting away in the green room before we pushed the 29 00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:01.270 record button. We first met, we reckon about 2018 30 00:02:01.350 --> 00:02:05.110 sometime IBM South bank and it was an EDI DEI 31 00:02:05.110 --> 00:02:09.030 recruiter type conference, if I remember rightly. And you were one of the 32 00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:12.360 keynote speakers on that day? I was. And I 33 00:02:12.760 --> 00:02:16.360 have to say I felt at that time I was very early on in my 34 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.920 previous company and founding my previous company. I felt at the time like I had 35 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:23.720 no idea what I was talking about and I was trying to 36 00:02:23.720 --> 00:02:27.480 perfect the elevator pitch and some days it was really eloquent and 37 00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:31.720 sounded professional and other days I'd hear myself saying 38 00:02:31.720 --> 00:02:34.040 it back and think even I don't know what I'm trying to do. 39 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.720 Or sometimes it sounds so crass, doesn't it? Sometimes you lift back and go, oh, 40 00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:42.390 that's a bit cringy. And oh, did I really say that? Exactly, 41 00:02:42.390 --> 00:02:46.190 yeah. And I think that IBM day was probably one of those 42 00:02:46.190 --> 00:02:50.150 days where I was one of the keynote speakers and didn't really 43 00:02:50.150 --> 00:02:53.990 know what I was talking about. I sort of mumbled and rumbled through it. 44 00:02:53.990 --> 00:02:57.870 But I met some wonderful people, you included, so that was 45 00:02:57.870 --> 00:03:01.190 a great point. I will say you winged it well and you did create a 46 00:03:01.190 --> 00:03:05.070 lasting impression on me and your belief because the product you were involved with 47 00:03:05.070 --> 00:03:08.590 was Pushfile, which is a mentoring platform. And I'm a great believer 48 00:03:08.990 --> 00:03:12.870 in the people space around the power of mentoring, formally or 49 00:03:12.870 --> 00:03:16.270 informally. And Pushfire Platform was about trying to formalise, 50 00:03:17.390 --> 00:03:21.190 creating accountability within mentoring, wasn't it? Absolutely. 51 00:03:21.190 --> 00:03:24.870 The main objective was for us to help people to find and form 52 00:03:24.870 --> 00:03:28.310 mentoring relationships that worked and give that a bit of 53 00:03:28.310 --> 00:03:32.190 structure, give people the ability to track their progress with their 54 00:03:32.190 --> 00:03:36.080 mentor or mentee. Yeah, we seemed to have managed to 55 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.920 achieve that when we went on that journey and started engaging with 56 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:43.680 lots of people who were interested in mentoring, which was great to see. It 57 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.560 became quite a big hit in corporates. I saw 58 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.240 some of your client lists and it really did get traction and still is, I 59 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.520 guess. Absolutely. It's continuing to grow. It's really 60 00:03:55.160 --> 00:03:58.920 a wonderful thing to see it continuing to thrive and 61 00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:02.360 incredibly proud that my co founder and I built this, you know. Yeah. 62 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.280 Organisations really were engaging with and continue to engage with the power 63 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:09.960 of mentoring. I think it's such an important part of one's 64 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.400 professional development, access to a mentor, but also 65 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.880 the opportunity to be a mentor. I think that's very empowering for 66 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.320 individuals as well. So who was your mentor? Did you have many? 67 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:26.040 I have had a number of mentors through the years. The one that I 68 00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:29.920 always cite is our chairman at the time, Martin 69 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:33.790 Sherwood, and he was a wonderful mentor. Mentor to me. He would 70 00:04:33.790 --> 00:04:37.670 advise me on the things to do, but often things not to 71 00:04:37.670 --> 00:04:41.590 do in running startups. He's been involved in and on the 72 00:04:41.590 --> 00:04:45.030 board of a number of startups and he's fantastic at what he does, gives me 73 00:04:45.030 --> 00:04:48.750 really good advice and is also honest. I think that's really important 74 00:04:48.830 --> 00:04:52.710 too. So I can ask questions and he'll give me 75 00:04:52.710 --> 00:04:56.310 a really honest answer. I've seen and had interaction with some 76 00:04:56.310 --> 00:05:00.170 mentors who will just tell you what they think you want to 77 00:05:00.170 --> 00:05:03.930 hear and actually that doesn't really serve as very valuable. I'd 78 00:05:03.930 --> 00:05:07.890 rather hear the truth, even if it's, that was terrible or 79 00:05:07.890 --> 00:05:11.850 that was awful. I'd rather hear that than someone say, yeah, that was great, when 80 00:05:11.850 --> 00:05:15.570 it really wasn't. So, yeah, he was a very good, very good 81 00:05:15.570 --> 00:05:19.330 mentor to me. Yeah, I agree. I've 82 00:05:19.330 --> 00:05:23.210 mentored a few people and I'm sometimes thinking, sitting there when I'm talking 83 00:05:23.210 --> 00:05:26.780 to them and saying, I'm in danger of being very brutal here, and 84 00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:32.580 that's what you're there for, is to really hold the mirror up 85 00:05:32.580 --> 00:05:36.220 and say, look at yourself. You're saying this. Do you really believe that? Or you're 86 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:39.420 just going through the motions and you need people to really cut through that 87 00:05:39.900 --> 00:05:42.540 BS that you're hiding behind 88 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:47.660 and face up to those realities. But, yeah, as someone who's 89 00:05:47.660 --> 00:05:51.110 mentored others, I have found it quite personally challenged to 90 00:05:51.190 --> 00:05:55.070 balance that own objectivity with personal 91 00:05:55.070 --> 00:05:59.030 opinion. That's a real challenge as a mentor, isn't it? Completely. And I 92 00:05:59.030 --> 00:06:02.550 think the best way to overcome that fear is to be really 93 00:06:02.550 --> 00:06:06.510 transparent and honest with one another. When you're having the initial 94 00:06:06.510 --> 00:06:10.230 conversation about, will you be my mentor or mentee? But also then 95 00:06:10.230 --> 00:06:14.150 reminding one another at the start of every mentoring conversation and saying, look, I'll be 96 00:06:14.150 --> 00:06:18.100 completely honest with you. I'll tell you what I. What I think. And I'm doing 97 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:21.540 that because I want to be helpful. And if at any point you'd rather I 98 00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:25.380 didn't, please just say can change. Change the conversation. But actually, if you're 99 00:06:25.380 --> 00:06:29.340 setting that as an expectation at the beginning, you'll find that 99% of 100 00:06:29.340 --> 00:06:33.140 the time, the individual being mentored will say, yes, I do want that. I 101 00:06:33.140 --> 00:06:36.620 want you to be honest with me. If I was looking simply for 102 00:06:36.940 --> 00:06:39.860 a bit of an ego boost or a pat on the back, I could go 103 00:06:39.860 --> 00:06:43.410 to my friends for that. And actually, a mentor is there when they're slightly 104 00:06:43.410 --> 00:06:46.170 removed, and they can give you that honest response. 105 00:06:47.530 --> 00:06:51.410 So, first of all, you mentioned you founded it with a co founder. So there 106 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:55.290 you are, two people developing on this thing. You've got maybe a. 107 00:06:55.690 --> 00:06:59.610 Maybe a shadow board or an informal board to start with, or some business coaches, 108 00:06:59.610 --> 00:07:03.610 but you grew to a sizable employee base. 109 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:07.530 I'm guessing 20s, 30s, 50s, over the course of 110 00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:12.500 months, maybe years. How did you find that 111 00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:16.460 challenge of growing from 2 to 4 to 112 00:07:16.460 --> 00:07:20.300 8 to 16 to 32. You know, that exponential growth that you did. How did 113 00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:24.299 you find that challenge of growing? Actually, you 114 00:07:24.299 --> 00:07:27.980 say that we grew the team. Actually, the team stayed fairly small. What 115 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:31.820 grew was the client base. And because it was software, it's 116 00:07:31.820 --> 00:07:35.580 scalable. And that had its own challenges where you have to become a bit more 117 00:07:35.580 --> 00:07:39.460 professional, not in the way that you do necessarily when you have employees, but. 118 00:07:39.530 --> 00:07:43.370 But you do it to a lesser or greater extent within the client base that's 119 00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:47.050 growing as well. I think the big challenges were 120 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:51.330 things like process for us. And, okay, we were used to having 121 00:07:51.330 --> 00:07:54.890 conversations with maybe 10 clients, and we could talk to them all and 122 00:07:55.050 --> 00:07:58.930 invite them to lots of things and really understand their 123 00:07:58.930 --> 00:08:02.650 own unique position and situation and therefore adapt the technology 124 00:08:02.730 --> 00:08:06.620 and the software to those 10 clients. When you have 50 clients, 125 00:08:06.620 --> 00:08:10.460 that becomes more of a challenge. When you have 150, that becomes a 126 00:08:10.460 --> 00:08:14.380 real challenge. Because what we found was, whilst there were some core 127 00:08:14.380 --> 00:08:18.380 components to our software that everyone wanted, every organisation 128 00:08:18.380 --> 00:08:22.020 is unique. Every organisation has different mentoring programmes that have different 129 00:08:22.020 --> 00:08:25.900 requirements, and building software that can be 130 00:08:25.900 --> 00:08:29.700 customised to all of them becomes quite 131 00:08:29.700 --> 00:08:33.620 tricky and quite a challenge. And it's setting the expectations that this 132 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:37.460 is out of the box software. There are loads of customizations 133 00:08:37.460 --> 00:08:41.140 and features within it that you can change, but there are always going to be 134 00:08:41.140 --> 00:08:44.540 some limitations. And those early on, 135 00:08:44.780 --> 00:08:48.660 clients who were used to saying to us, can your software do X, Y and 136 00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:51.500 Z? We would go back and say, not at the moment, but give us a 137 00:08:51.500 --> 00:08:54.900 couple of weeks and we'll develop that. It got to a point where we simply 138 00:08:54.900 --> 00:08:58.820 couldn't say that and we had to actively change those goalposts and say, 139 00:08:58.820 --> 00:09:02.230 well, look, we're with software as a service and 140 00:09:02.790 --> 00:09:06.750 we'll try and factor that into development. We have another 141 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:10.430 client who is asking us for a feature that is completely 142 00:09:10.430 --> 00:09:14.030 opposite to what you've just asked us for. So that presented some interesting 143 00:09:14.030 --> 00:09:17.990 challenges along the way. So being able to say no, being able 144 00:09:17.990 --> 00:09:21.910 to manage expectations, otherwise you say yes to everybody 145 00:09:21.990 --> 00:09:25.350 and it becomes too stressful, I guess, 146 00:09:26.270 --> 00:09:30.190 completely. And I always wanted to say yes to everybody. I want to 147 00:09:30.190 --> 00:09:33.630 help people to get the best from their mentoring 148 00:09:33.630 --> 00:09:37.630 programmes and see those thriving. And it was a 149 00:09:37.630 --> 00:09:40.830 shift that we had to make in how we 150 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:45.070 positioned ourselves. But we got to a point where we were good at doing 151 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:48.990 that, but it took us the best part of two years probably, to make that 152 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:52.670 shift and transition, but we were able to. You are a completely 153 00:09:52.670 --> 00:09:56.470 virtual business. So you didn't have big offices and people were 154 00:09:56.470 --> 00:10:00.350 working all over the world. Correct. We were totally virtual. We 155 00:10:00.350 --> 00:10:04.270 were virtual before COVID in fact. So my co founder is a 156 00:10:04.270 --> 00:10:07.870 chap called Gabriel, he is based in Romania. So we were 157 00:10:07.870 --> 00:10:11.670 definitely virtual and we were 158 00:10:11.670 --> 00:10:15.510 working remotely together. And then when 159 00:10:15.510 --> 00:10:19.270 the pandemic hit and lockdowns were enforced, 160 00:10:19.270 --> 00:10:23.130 it was then a case of doing what 161 00:10:23.130 --> 00:10:27.090 we'd always been doing. There was not really any change for us. The 162 00:10:27.090 --> 00:10:30.890 only change was that actually organisations were suddenly saying, okay, we need 163 00:10:31.050 --> 00:10:34.890 our employees to still be learning, let's give them virtual mentoring. 164 00:10:34.890 --> 00:10:38.730 So actually we saw an uptick in demand as the pandemic struck 165 00:10:38.730 --> 00:10:42.690 and I think that remote working that we'd always been doing put 166 00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:46.650 us in a really good position and also enabled us to be a global 167 00:10:46.650 --> 00:10:50.290 business very quickly as well. So we had clients all over the world and 168 00:10:50.290 --> 00:10:54.250 mentoring. It doesn't really change from one country. To another when we think 169 00:10:54.250 --> 00:10:58.170 about the culture of an organisation. Some of these, when we look 170 00:10:58.170 --> 00:11:02.010 at big corporate, global companies, they're so massive, it's really 171 00:11:02.010 --> 00:11:05.650 hard to create a culture that seeps into every 172 00:11:05.650 --> 00:11:09.090 corner. But you were able to grow a culture 173 00:11:09.410 --> 00:11:13.370 from day zero. How conscious were you of 174 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:17.370 the fact that you were effectively driving the culture based on 175 00:11:17.370 --> 00:11:21.080 your personality and your style? Did you ever consciously think about the culture of your 176 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:24.920 organisation and what its internal values were? I 177 00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:28.720 absolutely did. The reason, one of the reasons why I did, aside from it being 178 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.600 incredibly important and something that I think is so powerful and really does 179 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.520 shape a business, is I remember one of my first jobs where 180 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:41.080 the CEO of the company said, I know that you won't work in this 181 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.800 company forever. He said this to everybody. He wasn't singling me out. He said to 182 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:48.490 everybody, I know that you won't work in this company, company forever, or you're very 183 00:11:48.490 --> 00:11:51.810 unlikely to, but wherever you go in your career, 184 00:11:52.610 --> 00:11:56.370 the one objective I would have is for you to always look back on your 185 00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:59.890 time at that company, at our company, he said, and 186 00:12:01.170 --> 00:12:05.130 know that you enjoyed your time there and feel like 187 00:12:05.130 --> 00:12:09.050 it was the best company you'd ever worked for. And I always thought, what 188 00:12:09.050 --> 00:12:12.980 a cool thing to say and aspire to, you 189 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:16.700 know, it's not about revenue, it's not about growth, it's about the 190 00:12:16.780 --> 00:12:20.740 one place where you really enjoyed working. And so I always 191 00:12:20.740 --> 00:12:24.740 wanted to build businesses where people felt like that when 192 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:28.460 they were working with me and for the companies that I was co founding. 193 00:12:28.540 --> 00:12:32.260 And so that was very much in the forefront of my mind. And then you 194 00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:35.140 start to look at, well, how does one achieve that? And you think, well, what 195 00:12:35.140 --> 00:12:38.750 would I like from an employer? What would I like 196 00:12:38.750 --> 00:12:42.630 to know that I can talk to them about or that I can get from 197 00:12:42.630 --> 00:12:46.150 the company and that they will give back to me? And it really starts with 198 00:12:46.150 --> 00:12:49.950 honesty and trust. I think that has to be implicit from day 199 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:53.510 one. And so I would always talk to new hires. There weren't a lot. We 200 00:12:53.510 --> 00:12:57.350 were a small team, which makes things obviously easier when it comes to culture. But 201 00:12:57.350 --> 00:13:01.310 it was that total honesty, total transparency, and it was saying, 202 00:13:02.190 --> 00:13:06.190 if you ever have any issues or challenges or you ever just want to talk 203 00:13:06.190 --> 00:13:10.110 about anything, please don't hesitate to do so. And 204 00:13:10.110 --> 00:13:14.070 also then instilling that flexibility early on. So if it was 205 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:17.910 a sunny day and I knew that people were in London or 206 00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:21.070 in the UK and the weather was Great. I'd say, look, it's a Friday afternoon, 207 00:13:21.070 --> 00:13:24.310 if you finish your work, just log off. And it wasn't that we had a 208 00:13:24.390 --> 00:13:28.390 formal policy of a four day working week. It was actually, I 209 00:13:28.390 --> 00:13:32.310 understand what's going on and I remember a colleague who was 210 00:13:32.310 --> 00:13:36.120 really into football. I have to confess, I'm not, I'm not a 211 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.080 huge football follower and fan. But England had got into the, this is 212 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.920 going to show how little I understand football. They got into the quarter or semi 213 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:47.680 finals of a big tournament, I can't remember which one. And I said, 214 00:13:47.680 --> 00:13:51.560 I said to this colleague, look, whatever the outcome, I know you're going 215 00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:55.160 out with friends tonight, don't worry about logging on tomorrow. Because I knew 216 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.920 chances are I'd probably be having a few drinks and probably wouldn't feel very fresh 217 00:13:58.920 --> 00:14:02.480 in the morning whether England won or lost. So I said, look, just have the 218 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.820 day off. And I think, you know, little things like that where 219 00:14:06.140 --> 00:14:10.020 actually as long as it doesn't affect work and doesn't 220 00:14:10.020 --> 00:14:13.780 affect the, you know, the experience that clients have or anything else and then you've 221 00:14:13.780 --> 00:14:17.580 got to obviously make those judgments, then actually you should be doing that. And 222 00:14:19.020 --> 00:14:22.820 he said that that really resonated with him and was something that he will always 223 00:14:22.820 --> 00:14:26.820 remember. So it's that building that sort of. Culture based on 224 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:30.820 trust, does that scale easy for startup, easy for small team, but can IT 225 00:14:30.820 --> 00:14:34.750 scale to 50,000 employees globally? I think it can if 226 00:14:34.750 --> 00:14:38.630 you have the right managers of teams and that they have it instilled in 227 00:14:38.630 --> 00:14:42.510 them early on. I've always questioned whether it can scale but in questioning it I 228 00:14:42.510 --> 00:14:45.590 always come back to if you have the right team leaders who are aware of 229 00:14:45.590 --> 00:14:49.470 the team, who are aware of the challenges and the tasks and what's going 230 00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:53.470 on for the team, then I think it can scale. I think obviously 231 00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:55.790 you have to be mindful of if you've got a big project with a big 232 00:14:55.790 --> 00:14:59.420 deadline, then you can't say to people, well, you can take Friday 233 00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:03.220 afternoon off or I know that that's going on for you, but I think 234 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:07.180 actually if those things happen then then when 235 00:15:07.180 --> 00:15:10.260 you've set the right culture in the first place, then actually 236 00:15:11.140 --> 00:15:14.740 the individuals who are in the team, the employees will think, well, 237 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:18.740 I know I was given last Friday off or I, I, you know, was given 238 00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:21.860 time off and we've now got a deadline, I've got to work towards it and 239 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:25.820 I'm, you know, more willing to work for 240 00:15:26.140 --> 00:15:29.940 longer hours on a Friday afternoon to hit a deadline. And I think when 241 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:33.940 you've got that Mutual respect and mutual understanding from the employer to the employee and 242 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:37.580 vice versa, then it can scale. The mantra I would probably use is the 243 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:41.540 Ying as an entrepreneur is you work when you want, but 244 00:15:41.540 --> 00:15:44.380 the yang is you have to work when you don't want. 245 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:49.740 So both are true. You can take the swings, you can take the roundabouts, but 246 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:53.310 you have to balance it out. There are times where you're. I think actually I'm 247 00:15:53.310 --> 00:15:57.150 not feeling it today, or today's not going to be a good day. It's sunny, 248 00:15:57.150 --> 00:16:00.550 I need to clear my head, I need to get some creative thinking going and 249 00:16:00.550 --> 00:16:04.150 I just need to switch off and do something else. Other days you go, as 250 00:16:04.150 --> 00:16:07.670 you say, there's that deadline, the buck stopping with me. I've got no choice. It 251 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:10.510 has to happen. No matter how sunny it is, no matter how rough I feel, 252 00:16:10.590 --> 00:16:14.070 it's got to happen today. So if you have that personal accountability and personal 253 00:16:14.070 --> 00:16:17.870 responsibility, then that can work, can't it? And I think 254 00:16:18.050 --> 00:16:21.810 what we don't always breed are artisan employees or artisan 255 00:16:21.810 --> 00:16:25.570 colleagues who have that creativity and that self management, 256 00:16:25.570 --> 00:16:29.170 if you like, self leadership, completely, 257 00:16:29.170 --> 00:16:33.090 definitely. And I think a good manager or a good leader will 258 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:37.050 understand how everybody, how everybody in 259 00:16:37.050 --> 00:16:40.810 their team functions. They'll have that emotional intelligence to 260 00:16:40.810 --> 00:16:44.620 understand their team and how they, how they work 261 00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:48.300 and how they work best. And you know, I think I'd rather 262 00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:52.660 if someone wasn't producing very good work because they were 263 00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:56.020 exhausted or they just weren't feeling it that day, I'd be more inclined to say 264 00:16:56.020 --> 00:16:59.980 to them, look, take the afternoon off. You're not, you're not doing very 265 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:03.380 good work because you're exhausted or because you're just not feeling it. And that's absolutely 266 00:17:03.380 --> 00:17:07.100 fine. We're all human. And hopefully in giving them the afternoon 267 00:17:07.100 --> 00:17:11.040 off or giving them an hour or two's additional lunch break, that they'll 268 00:17:11.040 --> 00:17:14.720 then come back feeling more motivated and therefore be far more 269 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.680 productive. I think where some organisations get it wrong 270 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.520 is they align productivity to the 271 00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:26.200 number of hours worked and they think the more hours you work, the more 272 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.040 productive you are. And I just had never bought into that. I'd rather someone was 273 00:17:30.040 --> 00:17:34.040 really productive in three days. Yeah, we know the stories 274 00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:37.120 in the city where people would put the jacket on the back of their chair. 275 00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:40.800 So where's Frank? Oh, his jacket's here. He must be around somewhere. 276 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.360 And they get lost in the system and really they're outside having a cigarette or 277 00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:48.120 gone to the pub or at Balls brothers having some champagne for the afternoon or 278 00:17:48.120 --> 00:17:50.680 something like that. And they sneak back in at half six in the evening when 279 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:54.320 everyone has to gone home, pick their jacket up and go home. But that was 280 00:17:54.320 --> 00:17:58.200 kind of rife in the city. Maybe, maybe not recently, but 281 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.040 maybe in the 90s and the noughties when I was up there. But 282 00:18:02.040 --> 00:18:05.400 yeah, we have to breed 283 00:18:06.280 --> 00:18:10.160 cultures where people are self accountable and trust is 284 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.080 there. But we still find that many managers and leaders have been brought 285 00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:17.960 up the old way with lack of trust where they're micromanaged, they have to 286 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.960 have to sit at their desk and that can't be the blocker that we're not 287 00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:26.000 really nurturing a new generation of leaders. We're just more of 288 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.880 the same. Totally. And I think one of the other 289 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.640 really interesting things is that there are some individuals 290 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.590 not who like micromanagement per se, but who 291 00:18:37.590 --> 00:18:41.390 actually appreciate a bit of clarity around what 292 00:18:41.390 --> 00:18:45.390 accountability looks like. And I think there's a danger that 293 00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:48.590 organisations can go the opposite way and they can say, well this is the big 294 00:18:48.590 --> 00:18:51.630 picture, this is where we need to be in 12 months time, make sure it 295 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:55.510 happens. And for some employees who've maybe just come out of college 296 00:18:55.510 --> 00:18:59.470 or university or school thinking, okay, what do you want me to do today? I 297 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:03.330 don't, I don't have any clarity around what's going on. I'm not 298 00:19:03.330 --> 00:19:06.970 saying I want to be micromanaged but I would like a bit of structure and 299 00:19:07.290 --> 00:19:10.970 I'm working from home so I know I've got a call at 9am but 300 00:19:11.050 --> 00:19:13.570 well, I can roll out of bed at 5 to 9 and then I'll be 301 00:19:13.570 --> 00:19:17.290 on that call from 9 till 9:30 and then what? I'll check my emails 302 00:19:17.290 --> 00:19:21.210 and actually they probably want 303 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.850 to be a bit more productive. They want to have that clarity but don't really 304 00:19:24.850 --> 00:19:28.800 know what they're doing or will think, okay, I've got five 305 00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:31.760 things to do, I don't really know how I'm going to do them. They haven't 306 00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:35.360 got the discipline at any age but may be 307 00:19:35.360 --> 00:19:39.280 particularly prevalent in people who've been used to the education system 308 00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:43.200 and the structure of a timetable and you know, bedtimes and 309 00:19:43.360 --> 00:19:46.480 that routine to go from that to then a 9 to 5 job where you 310 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.360 kind of log on in the morning, you go right, I've got these tasks, how 311 00:19:49.360 --> 00:19:53.040 am I going to do them? You know what, what am I doing really 312 00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:57.080 is, is the opposite, which can be 313 00:19:57.080 --> 00:20:00.960 a danger as well. So I think there's that, it's really important that there's that 314 00:20:01.040 --> 00:20:04.480 self accountability but it's also important that an organisation 315 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.840 presents Their employees, their team, with 316 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:14.320 clarity around what accountability actually looks like. There's a. There's a book, I don't know 317 00:20:14.320 --> 00:20:17.880 if you've ever read it, it's called Nine Lies About Work by Marcus Buckingham and 318 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.080 Ashley Goodall. And they have this list of eight 319 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.240 insightful questions to ask, how to measure belonging. 320 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.720 And one of them, I can't remember if it's two or three, is at work. 321 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.440 I know what's expected of me and what you just said there is I need 322 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.200 to know how I win, how I lose and how I please 323 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.000 you. If I don't understand that and you say, I can't work in a 324 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.120 vacuum. I need parameters, I need goalposts, I need edges 325 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.010 to my world to know where my interfaces are. So by having that 326 00:20:49.010 --> 00:20:52.690 expectation about when I'm doing great and when I'm not doing great, 327 00:20:53.010 --> 00:20:56.610 I can then manage within those frameworks and depending on the person, 328 00:20:57.170 --> 00:21:00.650 we can either shrink that down to a cage or we can create a safari 329 00:21:00.650 --> 00:21:04.410 park and people can wander more freely within their safari 330 00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:08.050 park because they know what the parameters are. So about trying to find the right 331 00:21:08.050 --> 00:21:11.010 size of guides, if you like, when you go bowling with the kids, you put 332 00:21:11.010 --> 00:21:14.420 the guides up there and stop the bowling ball go down the galley. It's just 333 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:17.340 putting those little nudge points in there to say, right, okay, we're still trying to 334 00:21:17.340 --> 00:21:21.340 hit the first pin, get back in there completely. And 335 00:21:21.580 --> 00:21:25.540 there will be some people in an organisation and in their job who know 336 00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:29.380 already exactly what's expected of them and they know how to do it and when. 337 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:32.540 And then there will be other people who will need a bit more. 338 00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:36.940 It's going to be very rarely going to be a one size fits all as 339 00:21:36.940 --> 00:21:40.780 well. So it's giving people the tools and the resources to be able to 340 00:21:40.780 --> 00:21:44.690 have that structure and support should they want or need it. And then there 341 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:47.970 will be inevitably some individuals who say, do you know what? I'm good, I've already 342 00:21:47.970 --> 00:21:50.770 got this covered. I know exactly what I need to work with. You said earlier 343 00:21:50.770 --> 00:21:53.770 that one of the signs of a great organisation is 344 00:21:54.730 --> 00:21:57.970 that you will always think it is the best place you've ever worked. There's that 345 00:21:57.970 --> 00:22:01.930 tear in your eye and you reluctantly have to move on to develop 346 00:22:01.930 --> 00:22:05.730 your career and find something else. You've done that recently 347 00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:09.610 with pushfar. You had an exit plan, VC investors, 348 00:22:09.610 --> 00:22:13.490 or however you sort it out. Was it the best place you've ever worked? 349 00:22:13.570 --> 00:22:17.090 I think that's a really hard thing to say about a company that you are 350 00:22:17.090 --> 00:22:20.890 the founder of. I Suppose it definitely was in that it was seven 351 00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:24.250 years of my life and previously I'd only been at jobs for a year or 352 00:22:24.250 --> 00:22:27.970 two at a time before moving on. So it was probably the best and the 353 00:22:27.970 --> 00:22:31.490 worst, if that makes sense. And as an entrepreneur, I'm sure you all know this. 354 00:22:31.490 --> 00:22:35.060 You know, you have days where you think, oh, my gosh, this is really hard, 355 00:22:35.060 --> 00:22:39.060 I don't know what I'm doing, or it's all going wrong. And 356 00:22:39.060 --> 00:22:41.580 then you have days where you're on top of the world because you've just won 357 00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:45.500 a brand new contract with a multinational company and you suddenly think, 358 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:49.020 wow, my software is going to be rolled out to tens of thousands of people. 359 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:53.180 How cool is that? We're working with some incredible brands. 360 00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:58.220 The cherry on the cake is it's not just software, but it's software that 361 00:22:58.220 --> 00:23:02.140 makes a difference to people. And that's a really cool thing. I would 362 00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:05.700 say it was the best and the worst place that I've ever worked 363 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:09.780 as a founder. And, yeah, I'm incredibly proud of what 364 00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:13.580 we've done and it was wonderful and I hope I can do 365 00:23:13.580 --> 00:23:17.460 that all over again. The day 366 00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:21.420 after they changed your password, took your email address off the system, took your 367 00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:25.140 security badge back, did you wake up the next morning going, 368 00:23:25.540 --> 00:23:29.470 I miss it? I woke up the next morning and set up 369 00:23:29.470 --> 00:23:33.270 a new email account for the, for the new business. So I sort of 370 00:23:33.270 --> 00:23:36.910 thought straight out of one and into another. But obviously when you set up a 371 00:23:36.910 --> 00:23:40.470 new business, you don't have many emails coming through. 372 00:23:41.110 --> 00:23:45.110 I'm still in the habit of checking my inbox every five minutes and going, 373 00:23:45.110 --> 00:23:49.110 oh, no new mail, there's nothing. And 374 00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:53.030 then I sort of think, that's because no one's heard of you. And that is 375 00:23:53.030 --> 00:23:56.730 a sort of, you know, cold shock to the system. 376 00:23:57.690 --> 00:24:01.570 You know, the cold reality and the cold light of day, it's a bit of 377 00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:04.250 a shock to the system where you think, right, I've actually got to build this 378 00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:08.090 brand now. I've got to get people to hear about it. So 379 00:24:09.610 --> 00:24:13.410 it wasn't, it wasn't that I missed it because I, I'm, I, 380 00:24:13.410 --> 00:24:17.410 I was ready, I think, to move on, but it was very much a case 381 00:24:17.410 --> 00:24:20.330 of ready to move on, but aware that I'm not very good at sitting around, 382 00:24:20.330 --> 00:24:23.980 doing not a lot and relaxing. So I was ready for the new 383 00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:27.580 challenge and the new chapter. And it was quite literally the next day that I 384 00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:31.460 started doing that with my, with my same co founder, Gabriel. We both exited 385 00:24:31.460 --> 00:24:35.460 at the same time and have gone on To a new adventure. 386 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.020 I remember when I sold my IT company back in 2017. 387 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:43.940 I woke up the next day and I felt a little bit lost for a 388 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:46.980 while. Even though I was embarking on a new journey, 389 00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:51.710 a lot of who I was or am was tied up in an 390 00:24:51.710 --> 00:24:55.430 identity of technical director of IT company, 391 00:24:56.070 --> 00:24:59.950 business partners, staff, customers. I knew who I was. And 392 00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:03.830 as you were saying, the phone stopped ringing. People weren't talking to me, they were 393 00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:07.830 talking to the business. And I happened to be the business. Suddenly the world goes 394 00:25:07.830 --> 00:25:11.550 very, very quiet and you talk about this new employee. If 395 00:25:11.550 --> 00:25:15.420 there's too much vacuum of. Of what to do now, you sit 396 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.740 there going, well, nothing's happening. What do I do? Do you gone from a position 397 00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:21.860 where you're. You're looking at a bank account going up and up and up and 398 00:25:21.860 --> 00:25:25.820 up and stuff happening. Bat bills, corporation tax, all the things you 399 00:25:25.820 --> 00:25:28.860 have to worry about as a business owner and suddenly you're sat there watching your 400 00:25:28.860 --> 00:25:32.860 bank account go down and there's no revenue coming in. In fact, it's worse than 401 00:25:32.860 --> 00:25:36.820