WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.670 --> 00:01:18.590 And today is episode 178 with the title 19 00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:23.090 Breaking Barriers for Women. And I have the absolute honour and 20 00:01:23.090 --> 00:01:26.690 privilege to welcome Christine Boston. Christine is a 21 00:01:26.690 --> 00:01:30.450 lifelong gender equality advocate and leadership specialist 22 00:01:30.450 --> 00:01:34.130 who's on a mission to build inclusive cultures that empower 23 00:01:34.210 --> 00:01:38.010 everyone to thrive. When I asked Christine to describe her 24 00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:41.650 superpower, she said that it is turning strategic vision 25 00:01:41.970 --> 00:01:45.890 into inclusive purpose led action. Hello, Christine, 26 00:01:46.130 --> 00:01:50.050 welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Hi, Jo. Nice to see you. Yeah, 27 00:01:50.050 --> 00:01:53.650 and we were just chatting in the green room just now and we first connected 28 00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:57.530 on LinkedIn in 2018, so that's. We've been 29 00:01:57.530 --> 00:02:01.530 stalking each other for seven years. That's a while. A long time. 30 00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:05.530 Indeed. And did I pick up on the fact you're 31 00:02:05.530 --> 00:02:09.050 based in Wales, is that right? I am in Wales, yeah. Just outside 32 00:02:09.050 --> 00:02:12.380 Cardiff. Lovely city. I've 33 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:16.180 spent many a night out in the. Near the 34 00:02:16.180 --> 00:02:19.660 Wetherspoons area. The Prince of Wales, is it the. That's the one, yeah. 35 00:02:20.540 --> 00:02:24.500 In my younger days, when I was a bit more of a party animal than 36 00:02:24.500 --> 00:02:28.420 I am now. Great part of town. So 37 00:02:28.420 --> 00:02:31.580 the kids are breaking up for Easter soon, aren't they? Is that right? 38 00:02:32.140 --> 00:02:36.020 They are, yeah. One more week of school and then, yeah, they'll be home 39 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:39.940 for two weeks. Wow. Wow. What are you gonna do with 40 00:02:39.940 --> 00:02:43.820 them? Well, probably avoid the rain. We've had really good weather all week, you know, 41 00:02:43.820 --> 00:02:46.940 in the run up to the Easter holiday. So that means it's definitely going to 42 00:02:46.940 --> 00:02:50.420 be a wet one. So I'm sure we'll be, you know, doing lots of soft 43 00:02:50.420 --> 00:02:54.100 play and finding some indoor activities to keep them 44 00:02:54.100 --> 00:02:58.020 occupied instead of letting them run around outside. Well, you. Yeah, 45 00:02:58.020 --> 00:03:01.580 the introduction. I said this is the title is Breaking Barriers for Women 46 00:03:02.220 --> 00:03:05.820 and I realise and know that that's a huge passion of you around 47 00:03:05.980 --> 00:03:09.850 gender equity and equality for all gen and calling 48 00:03:09.850 --> 00:03:13.810 out some of the constructs that are there. So what got you into what you're 49 00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:17.770 doing? And, yeah, give us a bit of background as to why you 50 00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:21.730 do that. Yeah, so I've been a gender equality activist 51 00:03:21.730 --> 00:03:25.730 since I was about 6 or 7. And I know that always kind of 52 00:03:25.730 --> 00:03:29.410 sounds really strange, you know, how is that possible? But actually, 53 00:03:29.650 --> 00:03:33.530 I grew up in a Catholic family, so we were at church every week. 54 00:03:33.530 --> 00:03:37.530 I went to a Catholic school and it was about that age that, you know, 55 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:40.730 as a girl, I realised there were things that I would be told I couldn't 56 00:03:40.730 --> 00:03:44.730 do, you know, just for that reason, no other good reason, just because I'm 57 00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:48.210 a girl. So, you know, we were kind of, as girls, we'd sit and think, 58 00:03:48.210 --> 00:03:51.050 well, that's not fair, you know, why can't we do that? And that's kind of 59 00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:54.850 where it started. And then I was a child of the 80s as 60 00:03:54.850 --> 00:03:58.810 well, so, you know, that was a really big time for women's empowerment. And I 61 00:03:59.050 --> 00:04:02.690 don't think, you know, there was any way really of avoiding having that 62 00:04:02.690 --> 00:04:06.490 influence me in my household as well. My mum was the main earner, 63 00:04:06.490 --> 00:04:09.670 but we'd still have salespeople, people ringing the house 64 00:04:10.230 --> 00:04:13.430 and not wanting to speak to her, but wanting to speak to my dad or, 65 00:04:13.430 --> 00:04:16.270 you know, if they're coming round, you know, can they come round when my dad's 66 00:04:16.270 --> 00:04:20.150 home? Because they're still kind of obsessed with the man making the buying 67 00:04:20.150 --> 00:04:24.070 decisions, you know, and that wasn't the case practically in my home 68 00:04:24.070 --> 00:04:27.950 growing up, so. But of course it was into the 80s, you 69 00:04:27.950 --> 00:04:31.910 know, the Sex Discrimination act was passed in 1975, so 70 00:04:31.910 --> 00:04:35.870 kind of awareness, empowerment was kind of really coming about. It 71 00:04:35.870 --> 00:04:39.390 was the era of women having independence, being financially 72 00:04:39.390 --> 00:04:42.870 independent, you know, because of the new legislation. Women then, 73 00:04:43.510 --> 00:04:46.190 you know, there was kind that could no longer be told. They had to have 74 00:04:46.190 --> 00:04:49.910 a male guarantor to have a mortgage, for example, they could have their own bank 75 00:04:49.910 --> 00:04:53.150 account, they could have their job. And it was kind of the age of the 76 00:04:53.150 --> 00:04:57.070 superwoman archetype. You know, women, you can have it all. You 77 00:04:57.070 --> 00:05:00.790 can have the career, the big shoulder pads, the family, you know, 78 00:05:00.950 --> 00:05:04.890 all that. Yeah. So that, you know, those kind of, like values and 79 00:05:04.890 --> 00:05:08.690 ideals really sunk in for me. So I was very 80 00:05:08.690 --> 00:05:11.730 determined. I was going to have the career, I was going to have the independence 81 00:05:11.730 --> 00:05:15.490 I was going to. You know, from that point, I kind of really championed 82 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:19.370 women's rights and I have been a trailblazer myself. You know, there are 83 00:05:19.370 --> 00:05:23.130 changes in terms of altar service. I mean, this sounds really geeky, doesn't it? And 84 00:05:23.130 --> 00:05:26.770 I'm not a massive religious churchgoer these days. But 85 00:05:26.930 --> 00:05:30.290 it is true to say that, you know, I played a major role in 86 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:34.190 shaping the kind of system where boys could serve on the 87 00:05:34.190 --> 00:05:38.030 altar and girls couldn't. And now boys and girls do that equally. And I 88 00:05:38.030 --> 00:05:41.710 just believe that if you want to, there's no practical reason why you 89 00:05:41.710 --> 00:05:45.070 shouldn't, then that ought to be okay. So, yeah, so brought about a lot of 90 00:05:45.070 --> 00:05:48.510 change. And then I was very determined myself to be financially 91 00:05:48.510 --> 00:05:52.470 independent. I. Because kind of, you know, women then 92 00:05:52.470 --> 00:05:56.430 were able to get mortgages, get property in their own right. That's what 93 00:05:56.430 --> 00:05:59.830 I was going to do. I bought my first house when I was 21, 94 00:06:00.830 --> 00:06:03.830 I think, kind of to get a real idea of what that's like. I found 95 00:06:03.830 --> 00:06:07.750 the Handmaid's Tale really, like, enlightening because they're 96 00:06:07.750 --> 00:06:11.190 going through a time, you know, at the kind of beginning of season one, where 97 00:06:11.190 --> 00:06:14.310 they're losing all these rights again. You know, only the men can have the bank 98 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:18.190 account. So all your money and your bank account and your assets have to go 99 00:06:18.190 --> 00:06:22.190 in, you know, your brother's or your husband's name. So I think, you know, that's 100 00:06:22.190 --> 00:06:24.950 a really good way to sort of understand it and it brings it to life 101 00:06:24.950 --> 00:06:28.840 in a kind in the modern day. Um, and then I went on to work 102 00:06:28.840 --> 00:06:32.760 in gender equality professionally. I was policy and research lead 103 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:36.600 for the Welsh charity Gwara Teag, which is. Was an organisation 104 00:06:36.840 --> 00:06:40.760 focusing on gender equality in the economy. Then I was a founding 105 00:06:40.760 --> 00:06:44.680 trustee of When Wales, which is the Women's Equality Network in Wales. I spent 106 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:48.360 some time in Africa working for the Federation of Women Lawyers Feeder in 107 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:52.360 Lesotho. And I've had my own women's leadership journey in those roles. 108 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:56.120 I've done a lot on women's leadership, and I kind of really took that to 109 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:59.880 heart and sort of have, you know, tried to be a women's 110 00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:03.760 leader, leadership role model myself as well, in my own career. So Wales, 111 00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:06.800 for those of you who are listening outside of the uk, is a separate country. 112 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:11.359 You have a different culture, maybe to the rest of the uk. I 113 00:07:11.359 --> 00:07:15.200 know that the Welsh government were very forthright in gender 114 00:07:15.200 --> 00:07:18.880 equity and promoting women in society and leadership roles. 115 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.840 Do you think that's had a big influence on you, the fact that you are 116 00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:26.210 Welsh and not English or not British, if you 117 00:07:26.210 --> 00:07:30.170 like, and there's an identity around that? Yeah. So I Was born in England, 118 00:07:30.170 --> 00:07:33.890 made in Wales. Right. So my career has been in 119 00:07:33.890 --> 00:07:37.850 Wales, my gender equality professional career has been Wales. 120 00:07:38.009 --> 00:07:41.450 And yes, you know, I kind of work very close with government, 121 00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:45.730 very closely with the most senior women in Wales. And yeah, there 122 00:07:45.730 --> 00:07:49.590 is a kind of, you know, attitude ethos that, you 123 00:07:49.590 --> 00:07:53.270 know, women can be and will be leaders too, that we need 124 00:07:53.270 --> 00:07:56.950 gender diversity and broader diversity in decision making. 125 00:07:58.390 --> 00:08:01.990 And they've been, you know, some wins, some losses. I think we have a gender 126 00:08:01.990 --> 00:08:05.870 balanced cabinet now. We've certainly had them in the past, but then the 127 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:09.710 number of women in the Senate, the Welsh Parliament, that's gone 128 00:08:09.710 --> 00:08:12.510 down over the years, you know, and that continues to be a drive to try 129 00:08:12.510 --> 00:08:16.270 and increase that. And I think, you know, it's the societal barriers, I think, that 130 00:08:16.270 --> 00:08:19.750 get in the way, stereotypes, things like that, that really need to be 131 00:08:19.830 --> 00:08:23.770 discussed in the open and addressed as far as possible. In the. In 132 00:08:23.770 --> 00:08:26.690 the workplace, when we talk about career and aspirations, 133 00:08:27.410 --> 00:08:30.890 there's always this, I think the word, is it 134 00:08:30.890 --> 00:08:34.210 dichotomy. You can't, you can't have it all. Women still have to make a choice 135 00:08:34.210 --> 00:08:38.210 whether they want a career or a family. No matter how, 136 00:08:38.210 --> 00:08:41.890 how much girl power is there, the need 137 00:08:42.130 --> 00:08:45.090 to be a great mum or be a great parent 138 00:08:46.380 --> 00:08:50.380 often overrides the priority of furthering a career. Or you have to make that sacrifice. 139 00:08:50.380 --> 00:08:54.100 And I know many career women who have to have that. Trade and 140 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:57.860 compromise. Are we ever going to get to the point where women can have it 141 00:08:57.860 --> 00:09:01.140 all? I think it's very difficult and I think it needs a balance, really. But 142 00:09:01.140 --> 00:09:04.780 the fact is we're in a patriarchal society and in a patriarchal society, 143 00:09:05.020 --> 00:09:08.940 you know, a masculine culture by default, the very, you know, 144 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:12.780 fundamental basis of that is distinct roles for men and women. 145 00:09:12.940 --> 00:09:16.620 Now, in my household, we have a very feminine culture. You know, there are 146 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.880 no clear gender roles between myself and my husband and I'm quite interested to 147 00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:24.640 see how that influences my son as the years go on. I mean, he's 148 00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:28.520 definitely very subject to the influence of stereotyping 149 00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:32.360 in school, I notice. And so he's having to sort of make his own 150 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:35.960 mind up about gender ideals, you know, whether pink is an okay colour for him 151 00:09:36.040 --> 00:09:39.720 and that sort of thing, whether he can, you know, have his nails painted 152 00:09:39.800 --> 00:09:43.510 if he wants to and play with the girls and all these. All these 153 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:47.470 things that, you know, shouldn't really matter. But the, you 154 00:09:47.470 --> 00:09:51.470 know, social values and norms are being constructed at that age. He's six, 155 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:54.790 you know, so he's in primary school. That's kind of where it's all coming together 156 00:09:54.790 --> 00:09:58.230 and you can see, you know, different children have different ideas. 157 00:09:59.110 --> 00:10:02.950 You know, some households will be more traditional than ours is and yeah, 158 00:10:02.950 --> 00:10:06.790 we'll see how he grows up. But I think, you know, he certainly doesn't see 159 00:10:06.870 --> 00:10:10.330 this one role for Mum and one role for dad. So, you know, I think 160 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:14.210 he'll grow up to be more open minded and more kind of like 161 00:10:14.210 --> 00:10:17.570 understanding of difference. Yeah, I was watching, I don't know if you've seen it, the 162 00:10:17.570 --> 00:10:21.570 Netflix series Adolescence, which everyone's talking about at the moment and 163 00:10:21.970 --> 00:10:24.530 talk about incel talking about the rise of 164 00:10:26.930 --> 00:10:30.050 say, toxic masculinity. I know that's an inflammatory phrase. I don't mean that to be 165 00:10:30.050 --> 00:10:33.970 inflammatory to what I'm listening. But it's kind of using the language of Andrew 166 00:10:33.970 --> 00:10:37.560 Tate and the followers and the 167 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:41.960 how the intel movement is gaining traction amongst 168 00:10:42.520 --> 00:10:46.320 younger generation, you know, young boys mainly. And that must be 169 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:50.240 quite worrying because there's almost like this pushback 170 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.520 or hang on a minute, women are getting too much. Men want to take their 171 00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:57.480 power back. Yeah, it's very worrying. And you know, I 172 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.320 wouldn't even repeat the things that are being communicated by Andrew Tate 173 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.220 because I think it is, you know, it's a real concern and 174 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:09.140 a worry it should be for all of us and what that creates. I mean, 175 00:11:09.140 --> 00:11:13.100 Andrew Tate, you know, he's such an influential TikTok personality. 176 00:11:13.420 --> 00:11:17.180 His videos have been watched 11.6 billion times 177 00:11:17.180 --> 00:11:20.620 according to the article I was reading. And that is, you know, I'm sure 178 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:24.940 increased already. And it's creating really extreme views 179 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:28.380 against women, I would say. Women, I would argue, 180 00:11:29.090 --> 00:11:31.410 which I think is fair to say, you know, the figures really back this up. 181 00:11:31.410 --> 00:11:35.250 Women are already really disadvantaged and face a lot of 182 00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:39.090 barriers to, you know, to kind of achievement, to 183 00:11:39.090 --> 00:11:42.850 being independent. And you know, I think that 184 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:46.050 is really played down a lot. And we're in a society where 185 00:11:46.850 --> 00:11:50.770 a lot of households have two incomes, you know, whether 186 00:11:50.770 --> 00:11:54.370 that second income be part time or full time. But you know, both 187 00:11:54.370 --> 00:11:58.250 parents in the household are working. So yeah, women need to 188 00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:02.070 be able to kind of participate. If they're being kind of treated equally in 189 00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:05.950 terms of financial responsibility, then they need to be able 190 00:12:05.950 --> 00:12:09.550 to participate equally as well. And I always think, you know, we've, 191 00:12:09.630 --> 00:12:13.550 we're educating our girls, we're paying to educate our girls and, and that's 192 00:12:13.550 --> 00:12:16.909 exactly the right thing, but then we should be 193 00:12:17.230 --> 00:12:21.070 helping them to utilise their skills as well. There's so many women working in low 194 00:12:21.070 --> 00:12:24.870 paid, low skilled, part time roles because they're trying 195 00:12:24.870 --> 00:12:28.750 to, you know, raise the family at the same time, and that's a great loss 196 00:12:29.290 --> 00:12:33.010 to society. It's not a great use of the investment, I think, that we've put 197 00:12:33.010 --> 00:12:36.170 into women. But yeah, of course, you know, as well as Andrew Tate, we've had 198 00:12:36.170 --> 00:12:39.770 the Mark Zuckerberg comments as well, haven't we, recently, about 199 00:12:40.010 --> 00:12:43.890 too much feminine energy is neutering the corporate world. And he's saying he 200 00:12:43.890 --> 00:12:47.890 wants a culture that celebrates aggression more. And really what does 201 00:12:47.890 --> 00:12:51.810 that achieve for anybody, you know, celebrating aggression? And I've kind of, you know, 202 00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:55.580 I think we need to have a better awareness of male and female 203 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:59.420 styles and approaches, but it's a matter of bringing those all 204 00:12:59.420 --> 00:13:02.420 together for the benefit. And I mean, I kind of looked at the 205 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:06.900 figures around the Meta senior leadership team and their 206 00:13:06.900 --> 00:13:10.500 board. Their leadership team is one third women. Their 207 00:13:10.580 --> 00:13:14.500 board is 23% women. You know, as far as I could tell, I'm 208 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.420 just looking at the website and that. So the board roles, that's about the 209 00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:22.410 same as the global average. They're making about $62 billion net 210 00:13:22.410 --> 00:13:26.330 profit, which seems pretty good to me. So it doesn't kind of look like women 211 00:13:26.330 --> 00:13:29.690 have, you know, held them back too much. I think, you know, Zuckerberg might actually 212 00:13:29.690 --> 00:13:33.490 agree that gender diversity on boards is good for business. And I just 213 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:37.290 think, you know, maybe his views are more related to the fear of the 214 00:13:37.290 --> 00:13:41.210 male elite losing their power in a patriarchal society, you know, 215 00:13:41.210 --> 00:13:44.330 which the US and the UK are. But in terms of kind of the benefits 216 00:13:44.330 --> 00:13:48.270 for business, you know, we know diversity is good. The figures show that, you 217 00:13:48.270 --> 00:13:51.990 know, in terms of kind of boardroom representation, the boards that have a 218 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:55.630 good representation of women, they celebrate, you know, the benefits of different 219 00:13:55.630 --> 00:13:59.470 perspectives. They have better business performance and they're more 220 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:03.150 innovative and creative. So, you know, there's a very clear argument for 221 00:14:03.150 --> 00:14:06.790 helping women to progress. Now, I, I've written some articles on Sheryl 222 00:14:06.790 --> 00:14:09.910 Sanderberg, the. The former Facebook executive 223 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:14.840 who is famous for her leaning in mantra and 224 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.000 the criticism coming that really she isn't a feminist, she's a 225 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.600 complicit male applauder and promoting 226 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.800 white women and not intersectional approach and pulling 227 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.760 up, she's pulling up the ladder behind her for black women and people 228 00:14:30.760 --> 00:14:34.320 around her. So even though we have maybe female 229 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:38.000 representation in some of these big mega corporates, are they 230 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.560 really doing much for gender equality or are they doing a lot for themselves? 231 00:14:42.510 --> 00:14:45.270 And that is the question we need to ask. Pulling the ladder up behind them 232 00:14:45.270 --> 00:14:48.830 is extremely common and kind of, you Know what I see, sex 233 00:14:48.830 --> 00:14:52.510 discrimination is still an issue today. You know, I can kind of give a personal 234 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:56.550 example. When I was accessing financial services not that long 235 00:14:56.550 --> 00:14:59.590 ago, I, you know, it was me that went for the service, it was me 236 00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:02.510 that was paying for the service. And then when, you know, I was looking to 237 00:15:02.510 --> 00:15:06.110 get a mortgage with my husband, they wanted to put my husband's name first 238 00:15:06.510 --> 00:15:10.470 on their, you know, because it helps their filing. I mean, I just don't 239 00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:14.400 see it, you know, I can't understand what the reason 240 00:15:14.400 --> 00:15:18.200 is, why that's important. If I'm your client and I'm paying, 241 00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:22.400 you know, why does my husband need to go first? So that 242 00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:26.120 was really kind of, you know, enlightening for me. And then we know 243 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.000 that claims are going up as well. So, you know, there's clearly things happening 244 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.840 here. And the figures show that ACAs are reporting a 245 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.840 6.2 increase in disputes between 23 246 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.670 and 24 facing successful claims and an 247 00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:45.550 increase in the amount of money awarded. And I think kind of what's 248 00:15:45.550 --> 00:15:49.470 happening is, you know, got lots of. There's lots of awareness about 249 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:52.990 underrepresented groups and the barriers for them. I think you have lots of kind of 250 00:15:52.990 --> 00:15:56.590 empowerment programmes for those non 251 00:15:56.590 --> 00:16:00.030 underrepresented groups. So there. And I think what's happening is, you know, they are really 252 00:16:00.030 --> 00:16:04.030 empowered and they understand what's happening, they can see 253 00:16:04.030 --> 00:16:07.920 it. But then, you know, kind of, I, I think where 254 00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:11.640 it goes wrong is businesses increase diversity, but they don't do the culture work to 255 00:16:11.640 --> 00:16:15.320 go with it. And so you have, you know, there will be conflict 256 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.480 and probably lots of microaggressions. Maybe, you know, when concerns 257 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:23.400 get raised, nothing happens and it can become like a really big, 258 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.600 you know, reputational issue. You're seeing lots of examples of 259 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.440 it. I feel like I'm seeing it every week at the minute. It was Mid 260 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:34.200 and North Wales Police having major issues with harassment and sex 261 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.000 discrimination. BBC McDonald's. You know, there's been kind of quite a 262 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.360 number in the last few weeks that are kind of really standing out for me. 263 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.680 And yeah, I think it's, you know, I think what's really important 264 00:16:45.160 --> 00:16:49.080 is understanding, understanding and understanding that men 265 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.440 and women are different. I feel like that gets played down all the time, 266 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.840 you know, like men and women are a homogenous group. But there's so much evidence 267 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.520 that demonstrates the kind how women are disadvantaged in 268 00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:04.440 society and particularly from an economic point of view. And 269 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.260 I'm really, really interested. I'm extremely passionate about the work of 270 00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:12.180 Deborah Tannen, who's A sociolinguist and she wrote a book and 271 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:16.180 it's a bit dated now, but for me it's such an important piece of work 272 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:20.220 and I know that she was kind of quite blown away about the 273 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:24.060 interest in the kind of gender aspect of her work and has done a lot 274 00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:27.220 more on that as a result. But yeah, the book's called you Just Don't Understand 275 00:17:27.620 --> 00:17:31.420 Women. Women and Men in Conversation. And what she talks 276 00:17:31.420 --> 00:17:35.290 about is she says male female conversation is cross 277 00:17:35.290 --> 00:17:38.530 cultural communication. She uses the term 278 00:17:38.530 --> 00:17:42.090 genderlect and I quote, she says 279 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:45.970 learning each other's way of talking is a leap across the communication 280 00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:49.930 gap between men and women and a giant step towards genuine 281 00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:53.530 understanding. You know, I think there are such fundamental 282 00:17:53.530 --> 00:17:57.210 differences, you know, that are reinforced in many 283 00:17:57.210 --> 00:18:01.170 ways, you know, through stereotypes and things like that that we're just not 284 00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:05.020 talking about. And it's creating, I mean, we're in a world of polarisation, aren't 285 00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:08.980 we? And it's just creating more and more polarisation and we 286 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:12.620 need to kind of combat that by making all 287 00:18:12.620 --> 00:18:16.300 individuals aware. So, you know, I think there's a place for 288 00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:20.140 women's empowerment programmes, you know, all the women in leadership 289 00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:23.820 programmes, I think that's very important. But I also think it's important 290 00:18:24.060 --> 00:18:28.060 for organisations to be gender aware and make sure, 291 00:18:28.060 --> 00:18:31.980 you know, all their colleagues have an understanding of how, you know, women leaders are 292 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:35.880 stereotyped and how that impacts them negatively and that sort of 293 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:39.680 thing and how to kind of like appreciate the range of different approaches that, that 294 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.640 can be in the workplace. Yeah, put it back to what you were saying there 295 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:46.400 around the difference between men and women. You specifically 296 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:50.040 mentioned around conversation and language. Having 297 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.920 spent a good part of my life surrounded and 298 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.400 immersed in male culture and male groups. Male language, 299 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.650 male interests, male banter, male humour, and then 300 00:19:02.130 --> 00:19:05.810 crossing the fence, if you like, and spending the next part of my life 301 00:19:06.370 --> 00:19:10.290 almost entirely female focused in female groups and language. 302 00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:14.850 I can completely agree there is a difference 303 00:19:14.930 --> 00:19:18.930 in the whole tone of conversations and the 304 00:19:18.930 --> 00:19:22.610 how you support each other. I'm not saying every male conversation is about 305 00:19:22.610 --> 00:19:26.530 competition and alpha male and trying to prove a point. I'm not saying every 306 00:19:26.530 --> 00:19:30.460 female conversation is around collaboration and helping and supporting each 307 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:34.380 other. There are obviously shades of grey and a spectrum there, but I 308 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:38.380 do find inherently female based conversations are more inclusive, 309 00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:42.380 more collaborative, more supportive. Certainly in a friendship group where 310 00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:45.780 male conversations are all about trying to pick holes in each other and trying to 311 00:19:45.780 --> 00:19:49.740 get one up. I find it really difficult now to spend much time 312 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:53.580 in male company because I find it so exhausting so 313 00:19:53.580 --> 00:19:57.510 it. Is a very different. It's completely exhausting. And I really 314 00:19:57.830 --> 00:20:01.710 celebrate and embrace my female identity and being in female 315 00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:05.630 only company because it's just. I just feel so much more at home 316 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:09.550 with it. And. Yeah, and the other thing I notice is how I 317 00:20:09.550 --> 00:20:13.550 call it gender coded language. So I can tell if 318 00:20:13.550 --> 00:20:17.470 I'm with a person or with people who code me as male or 319 00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:20.710 code me as female by the language and how they talk to me. At the 320 00:20:20.710 --> 00:20:24.540 extreme is I'm sitting in a taxi and I'm getting effing and blinding 321 00:20:24.540 --> 00:20:28.340 and mate and football and my wife this and my 322 00:20:28.340 --> 00:20:32.340 wife that, that kind of laddie type conversation. Whereas 323 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:36.100 if the taxi driver codes me as female, it's all right, love, how you doing? 324 00:20:36.100 --> 00:20:40.100 And it's a very much more relaxed, chatty sort of thing. And so 325 00:20:40.100 --> 00:20:43.900 I, I can, I can very easily tell the energy that's coming 326 00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:47.900 towards me. And so it is different and it. Is that 327 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:51.840 a construct? Have we invented that or is it just the differences between the 328 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:55.600 genders? It is so interesting, isn't it? So now, I don't know if you've read 329 00:20:55.600 --> 00:20:58.200 Tanner's work, but it very much sounds like you have. They are the types of 330 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.120 things that she talks about. And I think it's really important to be clear that 331 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.120 according to UN figures, they say that 90% of 332 00:21:06.120 --> 00:21:10.000 men and women hold bias against women. So kind 333 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.000 of, you know, what I've seen in the workplace at times is that, you know, 334 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.680 basically, well, a woman's said that, a woman's made that claim. So it must be 335 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.320 true. There can't be. There can't be this in it. It must be true because 336 00:21:21.320 --> 00:21:24.200 a woman said it about a woman, you know, and it's like, well, no, because, 337 00:21:24.600 --> 00:21:27.800 you know, we're in a patriarchal society and 338 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.600 90% of men and women hold those views about 339 00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:35.600 what's normal. So that's definitely not the way to judge it. But 340 00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:39.560 yeah, Tannen talks about exactly kind of what you've just shared. Really, like 341 00:21:39.560 --> 00:21:43.400 report talk versus rapport talk. So, you know, 342 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:47.270 men are in conversation, they're competing for a higher 343 00:21:47.270 --> 00:21:50.510 status and women want connection and 344 00:21:50.510 --> 00:21:54.030 relationships. So it's kind of the status versus relationship, 345 00:21:54.110 --> 00:21:57.990 competition versus connection. And it's really interesting. So I've got plenty of 346 00:21:57.990 --> 00:22:01.870 examples from home and I wonder if kind of you and listeners can 347 00:22:01.870 --> 00:22:05.790 relate to this. But, you know, I could give you a situation where, you 348 00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:09.670 know, I might be kind of having my dinner with the family and my 349 00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:13.670 husband's talking about frustrations from his day. You know, and 350 00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:17.530 my response is, oh, yeah, I know. Here's the thing that happened to 351 00:22:17.530 --> 00:22:21.290 me, you know, so I'm trying to demonstrate how I understand 352 00:22:21.770 --> 00:22:25.730 what he's talking about. I've experienced it too. And his reaction 353 00:22:25.730 --> 00:22:29.210 to that is, you've just made it about yourself, you know, because 354 00:22:29.290 --> 00:22:33.010 he's thinking about status and competition. That has to be about one or two of 355 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:35.930 us, and it's about me, you know, because. And, you know, he wants it to 356 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:39.810 be about him because, you know, he's put that forward. Whereas to me, I'm 357 00:22:39.810 --> 00:22:43.290 just trying to, you know, to build that connection. That's what's important 358 00:22:43.860 --> 00:22:47.580 to me. And, yeah, I can. You know, the examples of that at home all 359 00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:51.420 the time that I notice. And it's just kind of a natural thing. I 360 00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:54.220 call that an empathy bridge. What you're trying to do is. I don't know what 361 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:57.940 you're going through. I can't relate to everything, your lived experience. But what I can 362 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:01.700 try and do is build empathy across this bridge to what you're saying against something 363 00:23:01.700 --> 00:23:05.700 I recognise. And to show connection with you, I'm repeating 364 00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:09.660 back in my own language, which then you think is diverting away from 365 00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:13.200 you. But actually it's me checking my understanding. In my own language 366 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.520 and women might do that. And I think that's kind of quite typical in 367 00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:21.760 communication. And that's what Tannen demonstrates. I do wonder if there's been 368 00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:25.600 change over time. Like I say, you know, her work's fairly dated now, 369 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.600 it's probably news. And I do think there's a lot more awareness today 370 00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:33.560 that, you know, an individual's lived experience is their lived experience. And not 371 00:23:33.560 --> 00:23:37.530 to try and say, yeah, you know, I know exactly when you don't, because it's 372 00:23:37.530 --> 00:23:41.330 them. But, yeah, I think, you know, the approach in the communication 373 00:23:41.330 --> 00:23:44.730 and the kind of, you know, the fundamental ways that men and women 374 00:23:44.970 --> 00:23:48.970 communicate and react to each other, they are still very much true and kind 375 00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:52.890 of need to be part of the debate. I've never. I've never 376 00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:55.690 read that book or heard of that study before. So it's really interesting because I. 377 00:23:55.690 --> 00:23:59.250 I guess my. My perception is. My perception is 378 00:23:59.250 --> 00:24:02.970 completely born out of lived experience and observation. And I guess when 379 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:06.820 you're a member of the club on the inside, you 380 00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:10.540 get a true representation of the real language and the real 381 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:14.540 culture that goes on. And I've been on both clubs, but I 382 00:24:14.540 --> 00:24:18.420 can't now join, go back to the old club and I was 383 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:22.260 never welcome in the same way in the new club. So when I'm 384 00:24:22.260 --> 00:24:26.180 in these situations. Now, I do have this before 385 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:29.860 and after I was a member of that club. Now I'm not and I see 386 00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:33.200 how it is. I'm a member of this club. Well, I wasn't before and now 387 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.600 I see how it is. It really is 388 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:40.720 personal observation, just realising and being hyper aware of 389 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.800 what's going on. I'll give you a story. 390 00:24:46.280 --> 00:24:49.240 I had two nights out in Brick Lane in London. For those who know, the 391 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.080 East End of London is the bagel and curry place central for. 392 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.520 And I was out with a group of men one night and the men were 393 00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.990 talking about a fight they'd been in, how they had their nose 394 00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:04.630 broken and had stitches and they're bleeding and all this sort of thing. 395 00:25:04.790 --> 00:25:07.790 And there was three or four men in this group all talking about their broken 396 00:25:07.790 --> 00:25:11.670 noses. And I was out three night, two or three nights later with 397 00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:15.110 a group of women in literally a hundred yards down the road in Brick Lane. 398 00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:19.510 And they were talking about childbirth and they were talking about stitches they'd had 399 00:25:19.830 --> 00:25:23.830 after childbirth and how much pain it was. I thought men were talking about 400 00:25:23.830 --> 00:25:27.430 their noses being broken and women were talking about their. The stitches they'd had post 401 00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:31.080