WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:17.790 And today is episode 179 19 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:22.580 with the title Stuttering Without Apology. And I have the 20 00:01:22.580 --> 00:01:25.500 absolute honour and privilege to welcome James Burden. 21 00:01:26.380 --> 00:01:29.900 James is a speech language pathologist and the founder of 22 00:01:29.900 --> 00:01:33.500 Stuttering Blueprint, empowering professionals who stutter 23 00:01:33.660 --> 00:01:37.180 to lead with confidence and connect without 24 00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:40.860 compromise. And when I asked James to describe his superpower, 25 00:01:41.020 --> 00:01:44.740 he said it is creating safe spaces where stuttering 26 00:01:44.740 --> 00:01:48.730 becomes strength, not silence. Hello, James, welcome to 27 00:01:48.730 --> 00:01:52.050 the show. Hi, Joanne, thank you so much for having me. 28 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:56.610 I understand from where we were chatting just now it's early o' clock for you 29 00:01:56.610 --> 00:02:00.570 because you're based Pacific time on the US 30 00:02:00.570 --> 00:02:04.210 continent, aren't you? Yes, that's right. So 31 00:02:04.450 --> 00:02:08.450 I'm from Vancouver BC originally and I still live there. That's 32 00:02:08.450 --> 00:02:12.370 my home base. But right now I am living in Mexico for the last 33 00:02:12.370 --> 00:02:16.340 couple months, on my way to Peru soon. So I love 34 00:02:16.340 --> 00:02:20.140 doing what I do and I also love doing it while travelling and seeing the 35 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:23.460 world because it really brings some depth to 36 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:28.100 my, my service and I like to go to places that have 37 00:02:28.100 --> 00:02:31.900 a lot of sort of spiritual, interesting things to do. So I. 38 00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:35.860 I got to go and do different ceremonies with different indigenous 39 00:02:35.860 --> 00:02:39.740 peoples all over the world, which is not something to do with my stuttering 40 00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:43.480 programme, but is very much to do with what I 41 00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:47.400 find valuable. Wow, that sounds fascinating. I can't wait to get to 42 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.080 that. One of my claim to fames is I've been to Mexico by mistake 43 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.360 and you might wonder how one could go to Mexico by mistake. Well, 44 00:02:56.839 --> 00:03:00.800 it's quite easy when you're driving down the aisle in California and you're not paying 45 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.480 attention and then suddenly there's a sign that says last US Exit and it 46 00:03:04.480 --> 00:03:08.340 disappears behind you. The next Sign you see is welcome to Mexico. It's 47 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:11.940 like that wasn't the plan. So it took like 30 seconds to get into Mexico 48 00:03:11.940 --> 00:03:15.780 and it took about three hours to get back out again through border control. So 49 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:20.500 that's my claim to fame Mexico by mistake. Luckily we happened to have the 50 00:03:20.500 --> 00:03:24.260 passports in the car. So you were there for all 51 00:03:24.420 --> 00:03:28.180 three hours? Yeah, you just end up queuing up out of 52 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:32.100 Tijuana to try and come back in. It's like, yeah, I guess it 53 00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:35.980 was the spring breakers or the college students were all out in force trying to 54 00:03:35.980 --> 00:03:39.760 queue back because it was a whole roll of us plated 55 00:03:39.760 --> 00:03:43.560 cars trying to get back in. So, yeah, we were, yeah, we were kind of 56 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.800 okay. But yeah, we're a bit worried for a bit because we were lucky to 57 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.760 have our passports. Just happened to have them in the glove compartment, the car. So 58 00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:53.720 we were lucky. But yeah, could have been fun. Yeah. So that's my claim 59 00:03:53.720 --> 00:03:57.600 to fame Mexico by mistake. James, we were chatting again in the 60 00:03:57.600 --> 00:04:01.280 green room before we went live. Around stuttering and 61 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:05.650 your masterclass in your programme, what triggered 62 00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:09.410 you to focus on stuttering and speech in the way you 63 00:04:09.410 --> 00:04:12.770 have? Well, my focus on 64 00:04:12.770 --> 00:04:16.410 stuttering speech came just from an interest in 65 00:04:16.650 --> 00:04:20.490 speech and language, from learning Spanish years ago and 66 00:04:20.970 --> 00:04:24.770 finding it fascinating the similarities between Spanish and 67 00:04:24.770 --> 00:04:28.610 English, the words that are similar. So I got interested in linguistics. I 68 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:32.430 already had a psychology degree and then the, the idea of speech 69 00:04:32.430 --> 00:04:36.350 pathology came up and I'm like, wow, that's a great combination of both. So 70 00:04:36.350 --> 00:04:39.990 I put all the effort into getting into grad school, which wasn't easy, still isn't 71 00:04:39.990 --> 00:04:43.950 easy to become a speech language pathologist. It's very competitive, but I 72 00:04:43.950 --> 00:04:47.910 managed to get in. And then during grad school at one of my 73 00:04:47.910 --> 00:04:51.910 practicums, I started, I went and did a practicum at Columbia Speech 74 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:55.710 and Language Services in Vancouver and they were doing a 10 75 00:04:55.710 --> 00:04:59.550 day intensive stuttering workshop. And this is the first 76 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:03.500 time I had come across people who stuttered in a professional 77 00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:07.420 setting. And when I met everybody, they all came in, 78 00:05:07.420 --> 00:05:11.140 they had quite intense stutters and I, I very quickly got used to 79 00:05:11.140 --> 00:05:14.860 hearing that, so it wasn't quite so scary or 80 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:18.819 different. I, I didn't feel as uncomfortable as I think a lot of people feel 81 00:05:18.819 --> 00:05:22.740 when they hear it. And then over those 10 days, these 10 people 82 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:25.820 went from stuttering intensely to 83 00:05:26.700 --> 00:05:30.700 almost completely fluent. And some were completely fluent. It was, it was 84 00:05:30.700 --> 00:05:34.050 an incredible transformation and 85 00:05:34.530 --> 00:05:38.410 I was, I was impressed by this. I decided this, this is 86 00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:42.410 something I wanted to do in so much in speech Pathology is, 87 00:05:42.410 --> 00:05:46.130 you know, making little ripples and, and hoping those turn into big 88 00:05:46.130 --> 00:05:50.130 waves later. But this was a massive change in a short 89 00:05:50.130 --> 00:05:53.770 period of time and I, I found it very satisfying. However, 90 00:05:53.770 --> 00:05:57.570 there's a little bit more to this story when it comes to working just 91 00:05:57.570 --> 00:06:01.470 on fluency. But I'll, I'll circle back 92 00:06:01.470 --> 00:06:05.110 around to that in a minute because it's important for inclusion. 93 00:06:05.910 --> 00:06:09.790 But for this story, I see these people have this 94 00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:13.510 massive transformation. I changed my graduate paper, 95 00:06:13.510 --> 00:06:17.350 graduating paper topic so that I could follow this up. And I was very 96 00:06:17.350 --> 00:06:21.230 lucky in that one of my professors was a 97 00:06:21.230 --> 00:06:25.070 clinical professor and a speech language pathologist who specialised in 98 00:06:25.070 --> 00:06:29.040 stuttering. And so she took me under her wing after 99 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.800 graduation. She started giving me clients for stuttering from 100 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.720 her overflow. She mentored me. I picked up a couple other 101 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:40.560 mentors along the way in those first few years. So I got to 102 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:44.440 do in a one on one setting what I'd seen done in this intensive 103 00:06:44.440 --> 00:06:48.440 setting. I also discovered this programme called Camperdown, 104 00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:52.320 which is from Australia and it's using the same method, the 105 00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:56.090 prolonged speech method as well we used in the intensive 106 00:06:56.090 --> 00:06:59.770 programme. But now it could be done in a once a week 107 00:07:00.010 --> 00:07:03.850 setting and send clients home with practise. And then it also 108 00:07:03.850 --> 00:07:07.770 transferred very well when the time came to doing it 109 00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:12.010 via zoom. So very powerful method, making big 110 00:07:12.010 --> 00:07:15.770 changes. As I started to see those changes, I started to feel 111 00:07:15.770 --> 00:07:19.450 very comfortable, very good at this. I'm like good at helping 112 00:07:19.610 --> 00:07:23.050 people become fluent. I'm very comfortable around 113 00:07:24.130 --> 00:07:27.850 people who are stuttering. And one of the most interesting parts 114 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:31.490 was almost like a therapist effect 115 00:07:31.650 --> 00:07:35.610 or a placebo effect that would be like when people 116 00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:39.290 came in and even when they had just started to begin to work with 117 00:07:39.290 --> 00:07:43.090 me, they started to relax right away. And I 118 00:07:43.090 --> 00:07:47.010 think that came from being in a place 119 00:07:47.010 --> 00:07:50.610 where stuttering is okay. Being in a place where stuttering is 120 00:07:50.770 --> 00:07:54.210 accepted, we're accepting it. At the same time, we're trying to 121 00:07:54.530 --> 00:07:58.390 make it easier to speak. Speak. And that's always been kind of. My 122 00:07:58.390 --> 00:08:01.390 attitude is let's make it easier to speak 123 00:08:01.950 --> 00:08:05.830 rather than let's fix you, let's make sure 124 00:08:05.830 --> 00:08:09.230 you don't stutter so that you'll be okay. Because I don't believe 125 00:08:09.950 --> 00:08:13.950 that stuttering makes someone not okay. So removing the shame and 126 00:08:13.950 --> 00:08:17.870 the stigma and the awkwardness, taking away the pressure 127 00:08:18.270 --> 00:08:22.030 to be perfect. Exactly. And what is perfect 128 00:08:22.030 --> 00:08:25.840 anyway is a little bit of 129 00:08:25.840 --> 00:08:29.800 stuttering here and there. I mean, we all do it sometimes. The difference 130 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.840 between someone who stutters every once in a while 131 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.480 and someone who Stutters a little bit more is 132 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.600 that if that stuttering starts to 133 00:08:41.800 --> 00:08:45.520 affect their mindset, like, oh my God, there's something wrong with me, 134 00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:49.000 I, I don't speak right. And they're getting messages 135 00:08:49.160 --> 00:08:52.880 from well meaning family, maybe even well meaning teachers 136 00:08:52.880 --> 00:08:56.870 or not so well meaning peers, you know, in school getting teased 137 00:08:56.870 --> 00:09:00.470 or bullied. They're getting the message over and over that stuttering 138 00:09:00.870 --> 00:09:04.670 is not an acceptable way to speak. And once that takes 139 00:09:04.670 --> 00:09:08.310 root, it can really blossom into a not so pleasant 140 00:09:08.310 --> 00:09:12.310 plant that just affects the way they 141 00:09:12.310 --> 00:09:15.910 interact with the world. And so we're trying not to, 142 00:09:16.150 --> 00:09:20.110 trying not to stutter. And in avoiding it, in avoiding the 143 00:09:20.110 --> 00:09:24.090 stutter we start, people start to avoid important 144 00:09:24.170 --> 00:09:28.170 speaking situations, making, not putting themselves out there. Maybe on a 145 00:09:28.170 --> 00:09:31.890 professional level, it might be job interviews or it might be even 146 00:09:31.890 --> 00:09:35.770 applying for certain types of jobs because if I can't speak, I 147 00:09:35.770 --> 00:09:39.290 can't do that job. I could never be a lawyer because they have to speak. 148 00:09:39.290 --> 00:09:43.010 I could never be a, a politician or 149 00:09:43.010 --> 00:09:46.410 whatever it is. And yet we know that's not true because in the US 150 00:09:46.650 --> 00:09:50.590 Joe Biden, who was the most powerful men in on the planet for 151 00:09:50.750 --> 00:09:54.670 a number of years, was a person who stuttered or is 152 00:09:54.670 --> 00:09:58.350 a person who stutters. So there's a lot of myths that 153 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:02.430 get in the way. That is a big part of 154 00:10:02.910 --> 00:10:06.350 my masterclass that I will share the link with you later. 155 00:10:06.670 --> 00:10:10.310 How to break those myths. But also in the 156 00:10:10.310 --> 00:10:14.070 masterclasses, how to speak more fluently from a place of I'm 157 00:10:14.070 --> 00:10:17.960 already enough. I'm just trying to work on my 158 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:21.680 speech, not I need to work on my speech in order to be enough. There's 159 00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:25.520 an important fine distinction there. Is there a root 160 00:10:25.520 --> 00:10:29.360 cause? Is it childhood trauma? Is it just a 161 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.120 developmental difference? Is there something that 162 00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:36.840 triggers your language development, if you like, or your speech development that 163 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:40.400 can make you more susceptible to developing a stutter or 164 00:10:40.400 --> 00:10:44.190 stammer or speech impairment. That 165 00:10:44.190 --> 00:10:48.030 is the billion dollar question, because so much, 166 00:10:48.030 --> 00:10:51.990 and I say that literally, I don't know exactly how much money has gone into 167 00:10:51.990 --> 00:10:55.870 researching that exact question, what causes stuttering. But 168 00:10:55.870 --> 00:10:59.230 we still don't have a definitive answer. 169 00:10:59.630 --> 00:11:03.590 And when we don't have a definitive answer, it usually 170 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:07.510 leads to the conclusion that it's just a normal part of being 171 00:11:07.510 --> 00:11:10.770 human. And that is what came out in 172 00:11:10.770 --> 00:11:14.730 2023. There was a forum of some of the 173 00:11:14.730 --> 00:11:18.690 biggest names in stuttering treatment. Mark 174 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:22.250 Onslow, Barry Guitar, Rosalie Shenker, 175 00:11:22.650 --> 00:11:26.650 others. Now these are people who literally wrote textbooks. 176 00:11:26.650 --> 00:11:30.090 Barry Guitar wrote my textbook in grad school for 177 00:11:30.090 --> 00:11:33.850 stuttering and in this forum it's a discussion over 178 00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:38.500 stuttering as a neurodivergence. It's 179 00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:42.380 not it. And it follows a neurodivergent pattern. It 180 00:11:42.380 --> 00:11:46.380 affects all different cultures at the same rate. It is a little bit 181 00:11:46.380 --> 00:11:50.220 more common in men than in women, but 182 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:55.500 that could easily be a reporting issue because 183 00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:59.500 of the pressure on women to conform a little bit more in 184 00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:03.180 society or maybe a lot more. The masking abilities might be there. 185 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:07.250 Now I can't necessarily prove that one, but what we see 186 00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:11.010 reported is a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. Stutter 187 00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:14.690 more, men stutter more. That's people who are identified at birth 188 00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:18.210 as men or women or male or female. But, 189 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:23.730 and, and, and so this neurodivergent neurodiverse 190 00:12:23.730 --> 00:12:27.610 angle is I think incredibly powerful because as a 191 00:12:27.610 --> 00:12:30.450 society we are learning to accept that we 192 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:35.090 have people with different kinds of minds, ADHD 193 00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:39.010 minds, people with autism, people who are 194 00:12:39.010 --> 00:12:42.570 left handed, and also 195 00:12:42.810 --> 00:12:46.810 in this case stuttering. That's very interesting. You say that happens across languages and I, 196 00:12:47.050 --> 00:12:50.730 I suppose that never, never occurred to me. I just always in my head 197 00:12:51.210 --> 00:12:54.970 imagined a stutter in English. But I guess, 198 00:12:55.130 --> 00:12:58.090 yeah, it happens in Chinese, it happens in 199 00:12:59.380 --> 00:13:03.300 Indian, Punjabi, whatever. It just, I guess the words 200 00:13:04.260 --> 00:13:08.140 manifest themselves differently because often in English it's certain 201 00:13:08.140 --> 00:13:11.940 letters that trigger, isn't it? Is it the same sounds 202 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:16.340 that trigger or is it, what's the commonality between. 203 00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:20.300 Because often people get stuck on the T's or the S's or something or 204 00:13:20.300 --> 00:13:24.100 certain words. Are there certain words in different languages that also trigger. 205 00:13:25.130 --> 00:13:28.730 You know what, that's another great question because what it 206 00:13:28.730 --> 00:13:32.730 turns out to be, it's usually a bit of a self fulfilling 207 00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:36.690 prophecy. The sound that an individual is going to stutter 208 00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:40.010 on. Now the way it usually works is something like this. 209 00:13:40.329 --> 00:13:43.850 Some big stutter happens on a certain letter that 210 00:13:44.650 --> 00:13:48.650 results in an embarrassed feeling. So the 211 00:13:48.650 --> 00:13:52.610 next time that letter comes up for that person in a high 212 00:13:52.610 --> 00:13:56.490 stakes situation, they're expecting to stutter. And lo 213 00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:00.330 and behold they do. Because they, their body gets 214 00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:04.050 more tense. They, they're expecting this to happen. 215 00:14:04.130 --> 00:14:07.890 They, they, they sort of tense up and then it does. And then 216 00:14:07.890 --> 00:14:11.330 that is proof that it's that letter that is the problem 217 00:14:11.570 --> 00:14:15.050 and it just compounds from there. And 218 00:14:15.050 --> 00:14:18.620 usually it's not always this way. But a very common 219 00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:22.420 letter for someone to stutter on is the first 220 00:14:22.420 --> 00:14:26.340 letter of their name. Because they have had an 221 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:30.260 experience where they've tried to introduce themselves, they've stuttered and then 222 00:14:30.260 --> 00:14:34.140 some smart person has said, what did you forget your name? Because 223 00:14:34.140 --> 00:14:38.100 that's such a classic thing to say when someone stutters on their own name 224 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:42.020 and people don't realise how harmful that can be and how 225 00:14:42.020 --> 00:14:45.990 hurtful. Even though it seems like an innocuous joke, it 226 00:14:45.990 --> 00:14:49.350 is not an innocuous joke if you're very sensitive and 227 00:14:49.430 --> 00:14:52.710 understandably so, considering how people treat stutterers 228 00:14:53.350 --> 00:14:57.190 about stuttering and not wanting to stutter where people can hear you. So 229 00:14:57.190 --> 00:15:01.110 as a listener or the other part of a conversation and 230 00:15:01.110 --> 00:15:04.550 somebody is struggling, however we would describe that, 231 00:15:06.870 --> 00:15:10.720 what should I do to be a better listener and to help that 232 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:14.720 person over the situation? Should I. Obviously I shouldn't 233 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.160 be speaking for them. I shouldn't be interrupting them, I shouldn't be completing their sentence. 234 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.000 How should I react? You're absolutely right with the not 235 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.960 interrupting and not completing sentences. That's. If there. If there were 236 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:29.880 gonna be rules, that would be rule number one. The best thing 237 00:15:29.880 --> 00:15:33.680 to do is simply wait and listen and just be 238 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:37.110 patient and keep looking at the person. And 239 00:15:38.550 --> 00:15:41.750 I think more importantly is what we're doing here 240 00:15:42.230 --> 00:15:45.830 is advocating that stuttering is not a disorder, 241 00:15:45.990 --> 00:15:49.990 it's not a disease, it's not a neurological 242 00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:53.510 problem, it's not a tick. It's simply 243 00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:57.910 the way that this portion of the population, 244 00:15:58.070 --> 00:16:02.010 1%, which is much, much bigger than most people would 245 00:16:02.010 --> 00:16:05.890 realise, how many people that stutter, that's simply the way that they talk 246 00:16:05.890 --> 00:16:09.570 and that it's okay. And if you understand that deep 247 00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:13.250 inside as the listener, makes it a lot easier not 248 00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:17.330 to have to, like, remember all the rules about how to talk to a 249 00:16:17.330 --> 00:16:21.330 person who stutters. You just know that it's okay and you don't have to worry 250 00:16:21.330 --> 00:16:25.130 about them and they're fine. They're just doing their thing. It's just going to take 251 00:16:25.130 --> 00:16:28.950 a couple extra seconds. Sometimes it's going to take even longer. But if 252 00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:32.790 you wait, the message will come out. And you don't have to 253 00:16:32.790 --> 00:16:36.790 say anything like, it's okay, I'm waiting. You don't have to, 254 00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:40.710 like, draw attention to it in any real way. You're just. You're just paying 255 00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:44.390 attention like you would to anyone who is taking a little bit longer to say 256 00:16:44.390 --> 00:16:48.190 something. Yeah. As you're talking now, I'm just thinking, how would I react in the 257 00:16:48.190 --> 00:16:52.150 situation? And I'm thinking all these emotions and things are flying 258 00:16:52.150 --> 00:16:55.720 around my head going, oh, do I feel. So am I feeling sorry for that 259 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.720 person? Maybe I am. Maybe I'm feeling a bit of empathy. Maybe I'm feeling a 260 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:02.520 bit of compassion, benevolence. I want to say they're there. It's okay. Don't 261 00:17:02.520 --> 00:17:06.400 worry. I want to help them and reassure them, but I also, 262 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.440 in my head is, don't draw attention to it. Be patient. Don't look like I'm 263 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.680 bothered. But it's trying to find that middle ground, isn't it? 264 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.320 Just a blank stare and kind of a vacant 265 00:17:18.320 --> 00:17:22.250 smile, tilting your head to one side and going, I'm waiting on the inside. I'm 266 00:17:22.250 --> 00:17:26.170 waiting on the inside. Keep going. And I'm just trying to think of how 267 00:17:26.170 --> 00:17:28.890 I can learn myself to create the right 268 00:17:29.850 --> 00:17:33.650 listening face, the right listening mode to not 269 00:17:33.650 --> 00:17:37.410 add to the pressure. I think that when we know that there's 270 00:17:37.410 --> 00:17:41.330 nothing wrong, it's not a sign of anything. It's not a 271 00:17:41.330 --> 00:17:45.250 sign of lower intelligence, it's not a sign of a 272 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:48.880 neurological problem, it's not a sign of a disease or 273 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.360 anything, then it takes the pressure off us to, to look 274 00:17:52.360 --> 00:17:56.200 normal, look normal, everything's okay. Also, 275 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.640 when I said don't draw attention to it, I think that's 276 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.680 absolutely fair. When talking to adults, we. We don't need to tell them 277 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.600 they're okay or, or. Or give them a pat or, or feel sorry for 278 00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:11.520 anyone. What we. But 279 00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:15.420 I. That. That doesn't necessarily mean. Let's 280 00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:19.140 say you've got a young child who stutters. I'm not 281 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:23.060 saying don't talk about it because that just makes it into the 282 00:18:23.060 --> 00:18:26.980 elephant in the room. When we, when we don't talk to a child 283 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:30.979 about their stutter at all, then we're sending 284 00:18:30.979 --> 00:18:34.860 the message, this is so bad that we can't 285 00:18:34.860 --> 00:18:38.660 even talk about it. I remember experiences when I was 286 00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:42.620 young. Nothing to do with stuttering, but, like, the things that we don't talk about 287 00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:46.930 are the worst possible things. We don't talk about 288 00:18:47.010 --> 00:18:50.930 Uncle John because, you know, in his drinking 289 00:18:50.930 --> 00:18:54.770 problem. Just don't talk about it. Never mention it, you know, like it. Those 290 00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:58.530 are the things in families that are a sign 291 00:18:58.530 --> 00:19:02.410 that it's really, really bad. So I don't suggest that 292 00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:06.410 parents don't talk to their children about stuttering if that starts to 293 00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:10.290 happen. There's also a lot of, like, 294 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:14.720 typical developmental stuttering that may come 295 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:18.320 and then go just on its own. And 296 00:19:19.360 --> 00:19:22.640 if it goes fine, if it stays also fine, there are 297 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.280 other ways to deal with it. And I don't mean deal with it as in 298 00:19:26.280 --> 00:19:30.200 fix it. I just mean ways to interact with your child. I 299 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.200 mean Palin pci. So Palin parent child interaction 300 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:38.120 is actually based out of the UK where you're located. And it's From Michael 301 00:19:38.120 --> 00:19:41.950 Palin. And I love Michael Palin's story. You remember him 302 00:19:41.950 --> 00:19:45.870 from Monty Python. Monty Python, yeah. Great fan of Michael Payne. So 303 00:19:45.870 --> 00:19:49.830 he did a movie called the Fish Called Wanda many 304 00:19:49.830 --> 00:19:53.670 years ago where he played a stutterer. Yes, he did. And 305 00:19:53.670 --> 00:19:57.550 he was the comic relief. And after the movie aired, a stuttering 306 00:19:57.550 --> 00:20:01.270 organisation came to him and said, hey, you've actually done us 307 00:20:01.750 --> 00:20:05.430 a disservice. You know, you're putting up stutterers 308 00:20:05.430 --> 00:20:09.030 as people to be laughed at and mocked. And he was so 309 00:20:09.030 --> 00:20:12.690 struck by this that he 310 00:20:12.770 --> 00:20:16.450 founded the Palin Institute for Stuttering. 311 00:20:16.530 --> 00:20:20.370 He has done more for stuttering than any 312 00:20:20.370 --> 00:20:24.330 single other person I can think of off the top of my head. You 313 00:20:24.330 --> 00:20:28.330 know, he founded this institute, he's put money into research and more important, 314 00:20:28.330 --> 00:20:32.210 he's put money into therapy. And so I did one of 315 00:20:32.210 --> 00:20:35.330 my trainings. I did, I flew to Boston and 316 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:39.660 people from the Palin Centre flew into Boston as well. And I spent a week 317 00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:43.540 learning about Palin Parent Child Interaction Therapy, which 318 00:20:43.540 --> 00:20:47.500 is very different from the Lidcombe method. So Palin 319 00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:50.860 pci, or Parent Child Interaction, teaches how 320 00:20:51.420 --> 00:20:55.380 you interact with your child on a. You get down to their level, 321 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:59.220 you learn how to play with them by commenting instead of asking a bunch of 322 00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:03.180 questions. Now, it's interesting. I'm talking a lot now 323 00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:06.980 about how to help a young child. My 324 00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:09.900 current focus and the focus of my 325 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:14.060 masterclass is on adults. It's like 326 00:21:14.060 --> 00:21:17.900 how especially professionals, entrepreneurs, 327 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:21.980 people who are. Have a lot of skin in the game and need 328 00:21:22.220 --> 00:21:26.220 their speech to advance their careers or advance 329 00:21:26.300 --> 00:21:30.100 their business or whatever they're working on, go after their 330 00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:33.850 goals. So that's what I'm focusing on now. But I've worked 331 00:21:33.850 --> 00:21:37.690 with all ages. I've worked with adults, I've worked with teenagers, 332 00:21:37.690 --> 00:21:41.530 I've worked with school age kids and I've worked with preschool kids, 333 00:21:41.530 --> 00:21:45.490 pretty much everybody. So I'm giving you guys some information about what 334 00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:49.210 to do if you're a parent and you're worrying about your child starting to stutter. 335 00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:52.970 But, but most of what I'm. My, my masterclass is 336 00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:56.570 focused on the adult. So if you're a person who stutters as an 337 00:21:56.570 --> 00:22:00.240 adult, definitely check it out. It'll give you more about 338 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.400 how society and 339 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.240 how the stigma has made things 340 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.920 harder for you on a level that I'm sure you understand 341 00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:16.400 if you're a person who stutters, but how it's actually affecting 342 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.240 your speech and by going underneath the iceberg. 343 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.640 So Joseph Sheehan, a longtime stuttering 344 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.160 advocate, person who stutters and a therapist 345 00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:32.400 Talked about the stuttering iceberg. And so the top of the iceberg is the 346 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.840 stutters that you hear and maybe avoidance behaviours that 347 00:22:36.840 --> 00:22:40.560 you see like I'm not going to talk in this situation, I'm, I'm going to 348 00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:44.200 avoid this word. I'm going to do everything I can to avoid 349 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.080 speaking or avoid stuttering. But 350 00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:52.050 underneath the iceberg is the 351 00:22:52.050 --> 00:22:55.290 thoughts, the feelings, the self judgement, 352 00:22:55.770 --> 00:22:59.730 the myths about stuttering. All of the parts that affect 353 00:22:59.730 --> 00:23:03.370 your mind and your soul and create 354 00:23:03.530 --> 00:23:07.329 those surface behaviours. So if we are 355 00:23:07.329 --> 00:23:10.330 tensing up, we're more likely to stutter. 356 00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:14.930 If we are afraid that we're going to stutter, we're more likely to 357 00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:18.600 avoid. So the way to really 358 00:23:18.600 --> 00:23:22.400 help in the long run and not only help but 359 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.800 provide lasting support is to melt that 360 00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:29.600 iceberg. So take that to warmer water. And by warmer water 361 00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:33.480 I mean an environment like a therapy room like with me, 362 00:23:34.040 --> 00:23:37.560 where you start to feel accepted for your stutter. And 363 00:23:38.520 --> 00:23:42.520 I also like to get people together who stutter so that 364 00:23:42.760 --> 00:23:46.760 they can see other people who stutter, see how completely normal it 365 00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:50.450 is. Completely, um, okay. And because 366 00:23:50.450 --> 00:23:54.410 people judge themselves insanely, hardly insanely 367 00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:58.090 hard, but then they see somebody else and they're not anywhere near as 368 00:23:58.090 --> 00:24:02.010 judgmental. So we can learn not to judge someone else. Then we can learn to 369 00:24:02.010 --> 00:24:05.370 turn that around on ourselves. And this is where it kind of gets into almost 370 00:24:05.370 --> 00:24:09.210 a, like a spiritual aspect. Like when, when. 371 00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:13.690 Because I used acceptance commitment therapy as part of my 372 00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:17.720 programme and that's about like turning that light of 373 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.640 consciousness back on yourself and looking at yourself with kindness and a 374 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.480 lack and non judgement. And that's what act is about. It's 375 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.040 about deciding what your values are. 376 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:33.680 What is more important to me, not stuttering or going for what I 377 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.600 know I can do and deserve. And at first it's going to be not 378 00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:41.560 stuttering is more important. But then as we begin to 379 00:24:41.560 --> 00:24:45.440 not judge we can move that down and begin to see that maybe going 380 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.400 for the job interview is more important, maybe building a 381 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.400 business is more important. Maybe talking to the man or woman that 382 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:57.280 you're interested in is more important than not stuttering and 383 00:24:57.280 --> 00:25:01.120 slowly working towards those goals. You're putting your 384 00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:04.720 values in a new order. Yeah, I can certainly relate to the 385 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.690 internalisation and manifesting your, 386 00:25:08.250 --> 00:25:12.170 manifesting all of the stereotypes, all of that self loathing 387 00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:15.850 all at once in your head and putting yourself in situations where 388 00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:20.410 you can't stop by being wholly consumed that cognitive 389 00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:24.410 load of worry that you're gonna, the first thing that's gonna come 390 00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:27.770 out of your mouth is gonna be a stutter. So I can certainly understand 391 00:25:28.570 --> 00:25:32.090 how that limits people's ability to interact in society. 392 00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:35.770 Because you say, as you said earlier, what we have is this 393 00:25:36.490 --> 00:25:39.970 stigma and is there an opposite of normalisation, 394 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:43.890 denormalization, where you're in society and society treats 395 00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:47.850 you less fairly because of that speech impairment 396 00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:51.850 difference and you're hyper aware 397 00:25:51.850 --> 00:25:55.810 that you don't want to feel foolish, come across foolish. If you're in a 398 00:25:55.810 --> 00:25:59.700 job interview, think, well, you, you're almost walking into the room go, they 399 00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:02.900 won't like me if I started with this. Pressure's on you to get it right, 400 00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:06.740 isn't it? You know, when we dig down deep 401 00:26:07.780 --> 00:26:11.700