WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.110 And today is episode 181 with the title 19 00:01:18.880 --> 00:01:22.840 Beyond Reflection Towards Belonging. And I have 20 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.920 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Gillian Russell. 21 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.080 Gillian is the CEO of Beyond Reflections, who champion 22 00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:34.000 mental well being and inclusion by empowering the younger generation 23 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.560 with chances the older generations never had. When I asked Gillian 24 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:42.200 to describe her superpower, she said it is giving younger people those 25 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.910 opportunities her generation was developing. Hello, Gillian. 26 00:01:45.910 --> 00:01:48.470 Welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, how are you? 27 00:01:49.670 --> 00:01:51.910 Yeah, well, yeah. No, 28 00:01:53.350 --> 00:01:57.190 yeah, it's been a tough day at the office. Tough day at the office. 29 00:01:58.470 --> 00:02:02.430 16th of April, 2025, and we had 30 00:02:02.430 --> 00:02:05.990 the Lord Chief Justices of the Supreme Court of the United 31 00:02:05.990 --> 00:02:09.990 Kingdom rule on the definition of woman. And that as a trans 32 00:02:09.990 --> 00:02:13.840 woman, that affects me and without wishing to out you any further, other 33 00:02:14.320 --> 00:02:18.240 affects us both in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a 34 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.160 tough day. It has, it has. It's been one of those days. It's 35 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:26.040 not unexpected, I suppose, but it's still. It's still a kick in the guts really, 36 00:02:26.040 --> 00:02:30.040 isn't it? That's. That's the trouble. Brutal is the word already is. It 37 00:02:30.040 --> 00:02:34.000 is. It is brutal. But no, not unexpected. And I think the problem has 38 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.520 been, if I may say, is that in my view. 39 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.670 How can I put this, I don't know that we've done enough to 40 00:02:41.670 --> 00:02:44.950 a protect the freedoms we had to protect the rights we have. 41 00:02:45.510 --> 00:02:48.230 I don't know if we've done enough to take 42 00:02:49.670 --> 00:02:51.910 enough action quickly and 43 00:02:53.590 --> 00:02:56.630 effectively enough. I don't know. Because we're such 44 00:02:57.430 --> 00:03:01.110 a diverse community, as a group of transgender people 45 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:05.190 under that huge umbrella, it's hard to get everybody to come together. You know, I 46 00:03:05.190 --> 00:03:09.190 sit in meetings with CEOs and other structures in the 47 00:03:09.670 --> 00:03:13.530 trans health and I listen to people to go talking and talking and talking and 48 00:03:13.530 --> 00:03:17.290 talking and talking. And just sometimes I just wish, can we just do 49 00:03:17.290 --> 00:03:21.170 something? And I think. I think, you know, there's an 50 00:03:21.170 --> 00:03:24.850 orange man in the White House at the moment, and he has proven 51 00:03:24.850 --> 00:03:28.730 one thing above all for me. It's something which has 52 00:03:28.730 --> 00:03:32.130 been my mantra all my life. It's not what you do, it's how fast you 53 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:36.130 do it. And if you're gonna make change happen, you do it fast. And 54 00:03:36.130 --> 00:03:39.980 that means that things happen. And I just think we spent a lot of 55 00:03:39.980 --> 00:03:43.340 time consulting, coordinating, thinking, policy making, 56 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:47.300 pontificating. And I understand why, get me wrong? 57 00:03:47.300 --> 00:03:51.260 Because of course, you know, it's. But there's this idea that we have 58 00:03:51.260 --> 00:03:55.260 to have everybody on the same train, all going the same direction, whatever that train 59 00:03:55.260 --> 00:03:58.740 is and where the tracks are. Sometimes I think. And I'm looking at myself, by 60 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:01.980 the way, Joe, you know, I think this is really important. People like myself, the 61 00:04:01.980 --> 00:04:05.550 elders in the community, as it were. And I'm proud to say I'm older than 62 00:04:05.550 --> 00:04:09.430 you, so I can call myself a true elder if I'm 63 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:13.190 older than you. That is something, isn't it? But, you know, we've not pressed hard 64 00:04:13.190 --> 00:04:16.630 enough. And I think we fought so hard to get the rights we had, 65 00:04:16.950 --> 00:04:20.230 and then we sat down and thoroughly celebrated them, and then we sort of went 66 00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:23.270 to sleep and we just assumed that was all ours. And I think what we've 67 00:04:23.270 --> 00:04:27.230 seen in the States is that erosion of a democracy. And I think 68 00:04:27.230 --> 00:04:30.430 we're seeing it in the UK and I think we're seeing, you know, the big 69 00:04:30.430 --> 00:04:34.410 picture, a big political movement against trans people for all sorts of different reasons, 70 00:04:35.290 --> 00:04:39.170 but in the day to day, you know, it's the case, isn't 71 00:04:39.170 --> 00:04:42.330 it, that who really cares about 72 00:04:42.890 --> 00:04:46.810 this decision? It's about 25 people with a particular agenda. 73 00:04:46.810 --> 00:04:50.490 Sorry, there's probably maybe 250 people with a particular gender. 74 00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:54.490 And of the other 79¼ million people in this country, 75 00:04:54.650 --> 00:04:58.570 no kids are monkeys about it, apart from us, who are severely 76 00:04:58.570 --> 00:05:02.380 disadvantaged by it. And. And that's the. That's the trouble with 77 00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:05.180 this. That's the trouble with this rule. Yeah, but we don't want to talk all 78 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:09.140 day about this because that's just moaning and pitching, isn't it? You know, 79 00:05:09.140 --> 00:05:13.140 that's why, just like opening. Salvo, it's a car 80 00:05:13.140 --> 00:05:16.260 crash on the way to work. I guess it's probably the best way of describing 81 00:05:16.260 --> 00:05:19.740 it. Yeah. And you know what's really brilliant about it? It does two things. It 82 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:23.460 polarises People, doesn't it? So you have people. I was on LBC this morning chatting 83 00:05:23.460 --> 00:05:27.340 and I had someone called Graham who rang in, say ah, Gillian with the blokes 84 00:05:27.340 --> 00:05:30.980 voice. Ah, you know, what's the reason this is important is for the protection of 85 00:05:30.980 --> 00:05:34.840 our spec. And are they great? Yeah, because I'm single handedly 86 00:05:34.840 --> 00:05:38.000 not doing my bit to help them. You know, the carry on of the species 87 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.920 having fathered children in the past. So, you know, my job is done 88 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.840 here, both as a man, as a woman. Was that Nick Ferrari you did, 89 00:05:45.840 --> 00:05:49.720 was it? No, it was on James Bright or Brian, part of the phone 90 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:53.480 in the thing. Yeah, I did GB News this morning. I'm sure you did. You 91 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.240 live on there now, don't you? I don't know. You can't live 92 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.390 there, it's far too toxic and 93 00:06:01.190 --> 00:06:05.190 soul destroying. But I was sat in the green room or on 94 00:06:05.190 --> 00:06:08.950 Zoom waiting to go live and I just listened to the two presenters, 95 00:06:09.430 --> 00:06:13.390 they were just piling on the bigotry, the bias, the anti trans 96 00:06:13.390 --> 00:06:16.270 rhetoric and it was just like by the time I got on there I was 97 00:06:16.270 --> 00:06:20.230 feeling kind of unclean and dirty. And then they had someone outside the court 98 00:06:20.230 --> 00:06:24.120 in Scotland who was basically celebrating from one 99 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.080 of the board of Sex Matters charity and they were euphoric 100 00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:31.280 and it was kind of. And I was trying not to be too doom and 101 00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:34.920 gloomy and just be very practical. You know, we've got to accept the decision, we've 102 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.000 got to work out what it means. Today is a day for reflection, 103 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.360 tomorrow is a day to regroup and re establish, you 104 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:46.320 know, I still have a gender recognition certificate, I'm a certificated woman. 105 00:06:46.400 --> 00:06:49.760 According to the judge, I may not be a biological woman and I never claimed 106 00:06:49.760 --> 00:06:53.690 to be a biological woman, but I'm legally, for all intents and 107 00:06:53.690 --> 00:06:57.490 purposes a woman. I'm just not covered under the Equality act under 108 00:06:57.490 --> 00:07:01.490 the sex protection. And let's, let's be really clear about this. 109 00:07:01.490 --> 00:07:04.610 What we need to do is look back in six months time and say, and 110 00:07:04.610 --> 00:07:08.610 see how the figures of rapes, crimes, violence against women 111 00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:12.450 have dramatically dropped because all of these transgender women are being excluded from 112 00:07:12.450 --> 00:07:16.290 these spaces. It is ludicrous. Well, what it shows is that 113 00:07:16.290 --> 00:07:19.980 well funded, well invested, well organised, small 114 00:07:19.980 --> 00:07:23.580 groups of people can make a big impact and we can do that. And that's 115 00:07:23.580 --> 00:07:27.260 why I keep sort of, you know, we have great allies out there, we have 116 00:07:27.260 --> 00:07:31.220 advocates who speak passionately on behalf, you know, Joe Lysert, Dave, David 117 00:07:31.220 --> 00:07:35.220 Tennant. We've got good people out there and we're just Not. We're just 118 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:38.860 not joining the dots to bring it all together and make that process work. And, 119 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:42.940 you know, that's what we have to do. Simples. But isn't the problem we're not 120 00:07:42.940 --> 00:07:46.620 really a community? Yeah, we're not. We're a. A group of people 121 00:07:46.700 --> 00:07:50.540 who share a characteristic. Yes, but we're so diverse, 122 00:07:50.540 --> 00:07:54.380 so disparate, so intersectional. We're not really a community. And even 123 00:07:54.380 --> 00:07:57.820 within. We're organised as a community. But we are a community, as I would say. 124 00:07:57.820 --> 00:08:01.820 But I remember Bobby Pickard saying this in Trans. In the City. You 125 00:08:01.820 --> 00:08:05.460 know, we don't have a hut, we don't have a badge, we don't have a 126 00:08:05.460 --> 00:08:08.300 flag that we always. Which is funny because we do have all those three things. 127 00:08:08.460 --> 00:08:12.140 But. But you're absolutely right, we don't. And we don't have people who, 128 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:16.700 dare I say, have been in the commercial world enough 129 00:08:16.700 --> 00:08:19.980 to understand how large scale change management 130 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:22.860 lobbying works in the real world. 131 00:08:24.700 --> 00:08:27.660 Like lots of people, we've got a lot of people running this sort of community 132 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:31.660 interest companies who have come from that community. We don't have people who've 133 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:34.780 maybe got the breadth of experience. You and I have been in the corporate world 134 00:08:35.020 --> 00:08:38.980 and managing huge changes and understanding. How do you get a government to 135 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:42.840 change and understanding if you've got a thousand people heading in one 136 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.720 direction, how do you change that really quickly? And all of this, 137 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.520 all of this can happen. Just needs. It just needs some. 138 00:08:50.880 --> 00:08:54.480 Hold the first meeting. I always think, and I've often. If you look at. If 139 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.920 I look through the sex matters and looked at the who's who there on their 140 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:01.760 website and they have people on their board 141 00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:05.520 who are specifically targeted at lobbying mps and 142 00:09:05.760 --> 00:09:09.600 ministers and people like that. They have someone deliberately working with the press 143 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.560 and media to get that. Stories. We don't have that. We don't have an 144 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:17.320 advocacy charity. We used to. I mean, Press for Change used to be 145 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:21.160 that organisation wasn't there and. And we. But we didn't. And we 146 00:09:21.160 --> 00:09:24.720 didn't. But we didn't have the forces against us in that time. But I 147 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.160 genuinely. I'm actually genuinely. What's the word? I mean, across. 148 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.560 I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm bloody mad, actually. But I'm 149 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:36.500 actually quite optimistic as well because there comes these points in the 150 00:09:36.500 --> 00:09:40.380 road where what they've done is. They've said, right, it's this. So 151 00:09:40.380 --> 00:09:43.820 now we know what we're dealing with because since 2010 it's been 152 00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:47.580 anything and no one's known what they're dealing with now, we might not like the 153 00:09:47.580 --> 00:09:50.740 result we've got, but now we know what we're fighting against. And actually, it's better 154 00:09:50.740 --> 00:09:54.620 to have a fight against something than half a fight against lots of different 155 00:09:54.620 --> 00:09:58.460 things. And what's important for us now is that we're a wedge 156 00:09:58.540 --> 00:10:02.140 piece of. This is a wedge piece of legislation against all marginalised 157 00:10:02.140 --> 00:10:05.720 communities. And, you know, we have to get others, 158 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.240 those marginalised communities, to stand behind us and with us, because 159 00:10:09.640 --> 00:10:13.640 there's also already attacks on gay marriage. And this is, you know, Project 160 00:10:13.640 --> 00:10:17.520 2025. I had the joy of reading all 900 pages at one point. This is 161 00:10:17.520 --> 00:10:20.360 all written down. This is actually a plan. 162 00:10:21.560 --> 00:10:25.520 This is not someone, you know, actually sort of making up goes along. 163 00:10:25.520 --> 00:10:29.520 This is a well considered, well thought out, well funded, well organised plan and 164 00:10:29.520 --> 00:10:33.420 we can do the same. I'm very hopeful. Let's get to it. Yeah, we 165 00:10:33.420 --> 00:10:36.380 just gotta. We just gotta come together. I think you're right. But, yeah, we said 166 00:10:36.380 --> 00:10:39.300 in the green room before we went live here that we weren't gonna spend the 167 00:10:39.300 --> 00:10:43.140 entire episode talking about this. So we've done a bit of a prelude and we 168 00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:46.020 got it off our chest and we've kind of screamed at the world and 169 00:10:46.820 --> 00:10:50.420 committed it to tape. But, Jillian, tell us a bit more about what your 170 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:54.740 real passion is in your other life, if you like. It's interesting, isn't 171 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:58.380 it? Because being very old, even older than you, as you said, I mean, I've 172 00:10:58.380 --> 00:11:02.340 had a number of different careers and not just working for Beyond Reflections. I'm the 173 00:11:02.340 --> 00:11:06.260 chair of Support you, which is a LGBT charity up in Thames Valley, 174 00:11:06.260 --> 00:11:10.220 and I'm the host of TransVox, which is a campaign and podcasts such as 175 00:11:10.220 --> 00:11:13.780 your own, but specifically in the trans world, and trying to, you know, making change 176 00:11:13.780 --> 00:11:17.580 happen in the trans world with a colleague of mine, as well as working in 177 00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:22.140 Beyond Reflections. So I've always said that 178 00:11:22.140 --> 00:11:26.060 because I left it so late to transition, I look at some of the younger 179 00:11:26.060 --> 00:11:29.340 people who come along behind and say, it's a real. You know, I want those 180 00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:32.300 people to have what I didn't have. Now, what I didn't have is through my 181 00:11:32.300 --> 00:11:35.820 own choice, and sometimes because of a lack of opportunity and knowledge and time and 182 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:39.700 resources and such like. But you see, when I started out, and maybe 183 00:11:39.700 --> 00:11:43.660 you're the same, we didn't have the word transgender. We didn't really talk 184 00:11:43.660 --> 00:11:47.500 about identity as a psychological construct. We didn't really talk about. Certainly 185 00:11:47.500 --> 00:11:50.940 didn't talk about gender identity. We had. You know, I come from the Northeast of 186 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:54.940 England. And you. If you were wearing women's clothing, were you 187 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:58.460 just seen as a pervert? And there was no concept or 188 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.300 construct. I mean, we had that, you know, documentary about the person that was 189 00:12:02.300 --> 00:12:06.020 born in the wrong body. And, you know, I remember that being discussed. And 190 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:10.500 I think, you know, the youngsters today, they've got the 191 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:14.500 language, they've got. They've got evidence, they've got science, they've got 192 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:17.500 all sorts of things which are there to be able to make things work for 193 00:12:17.500 --> 00:12:20.020 them. And I think it's, you know, the job of us elders to be able 194 00:12:20.020 --> 00:12:23.980 to facilitate for that next generation the opportunity, but also the 195 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:27.300 skills on how to fight and how to lobby and negotiate and do the things 196 00:12:27.300 --> 00:12:31.120 that we've done. Because arguably, trans people are very 197 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.120 resilient, but also they're not. At the same time, they're very vulnerable. So it's 198 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.080 about how we transfer those skills. Now, I was lucky. 199 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.840 I remember when I was very young, a 200 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:46.560 conversation with my uncles, actually, and my uncle was a 201 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:50.680 very large man. He just come from Poland, working in the steelworks in 202 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:54.440 Poland. Steelworks, remember those? And he was sitting. He used to work for 203 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.730 Swan Hunters, the people that made the tanks in the war. And he was sitting 204 00:12:57.730 --> 00:13:01.490 there. And I used to be a musician. I used to play A musician, play 205 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:04.690 music. And I used to say to him, E. E. 206 00:13:05.810 --> 00:13:09.690 Because we always say E at the beginning everything in Geordieland. He's a funny 207 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:12.849 un. He's a funny un. But at least he's not a Tory. 208 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:18.570 There are worse things, aren't there, than being trans. And I always think, and this 209 00:13:18.570 --> 00:13:22.050 is no disrespect to any of my friends or anybody that listens to this, I'd 210 00:13:22.050 --> 00:13:25.170 rather be trans than a Morris dancer or a Tory. And, sorry, that's not meant 211 00:13:25.170 --> 00:13:29.150 to be pissed anybody. That's very funny. And it is interesting, though, isn't it? It's 212 00:13:29.150 --> 00:13:33.070 interesting that, you know, I have met trans people in the Reform Party and in 213 00:13:33.070 --> 00:13:36.870 the Tory Party, and it's. And it's that lovely idea. So your point about 214 00:13:36.870 --> 00:13:40.870 not being a community, isn't it? We're not all. We don't need to be 215 00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:44.710 cut from the same place. The point about our, you know, the trans existence is 216 00:13:44.710 --> 00:13:48.310 that it's. It's separate to our lives. It's possible to have 217 00:13:48.310 --> 00:13:52.270 views which are not linked to being transgender the whole time. So I 218 00:13:52.270 --> 00:13:56.040 suppose I was lucky, you see, because I grew up in the arts world, so 219 00:13:56.040 --> 00:14:00.000 I had gender dysphoria, but didn't know it was gender dysphoria. I was often caught, 220 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:04.000 you know, dressing in clothes, female clothes, not knowing that was a 221 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.920 bad thing. Remember coming to London and going to Transformation, you know, like, I'm one 222 00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:10.360 of those people that went to the Old Place and Euston Road, you know, it 223 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:14.160 was great. Used to see the adverts and used to come down, you have to 224 00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:17.920 make a phone call from the call box around the corner. And I was about 225 00:14:17.920 --> 00:14:21.800 13, 14, coming down to Newcastle, from Newcastle to London to have 226 00:14:21.800 --> 00:14:25.360 music lessons, such like. And then, you know, sort of trying to experiment with this, 227 00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.240 but at least the arts. And I've always been a big fan of the arts 228 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.520 and I always think lots of trans people come from the arts and they come 229 00:14:30.520 --> 00:14:34.240 from it as well. Being in the arts gave me that ability to express 230 00:14:34.400 --> 00:14:38.200 yourself through music. And, of course, that was marvellous because 231 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:42.120 I wasn't able to express myself with words because the words sort of didn't 232 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:46.000 exist at that time. And at the time, you know, we're talking, I 233 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.750 remember a friend of mine, I was a musicologist who committed suicide because, you know, 234 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.150 gay rights weren't even a thing really, back then. You know, early set, it was, 235 00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:56.950 you know, it was. I can't remember when gay homosexuality was 236 00:14:56.950 --> 00:15:00.830 decriminalised, can't remember it. But there's a huge amount of, you know, negativity 237 00:15:00.830 --> 00:15:04.750 around the whole thing. So the idea of being transgender was just nowhere. So. 238 00:15:04.910 --> 00:15:08.430 So I think it's been. It's been a classic story of you. You find your 239 00:15:08.430 --> 00:15:12.310 way, you understand yourself. I mean, how many people we met in the military have 240 00:15:12.310 --> 00:15:15.630 tried to deny it themselves? You know, how to try and fight against it, got 241 00:15:15.630 --> 00:15:19.150 married, had children, all that sort of stuff, you know, try to deny themselves. 242 00:15:19.590 --> 00:15:22.190 I mean, a lot of people I meet who are trans say, I wish. I 243 00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:25.830 just. I wish I wasn't. Wouldn't life be easier not being 244 00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:29.630 transgender? People don't understand this, who aren't transgender. I remember sitting recently and 245 00:15:29.630 --> 00:15:33.110 saying in a board meeting, you know, I sit here now 246 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:37.110 and I used to have white male privilege. And whatever I said, whatever, 247 00:15:37.110 --> 00:15:40.350 whatever it was, people just listened to and go, oh. I used to suck their 248 00:15:40.350 --> 00:15:43.590 teeth and say, that's very profound. And then a woman would say something and it 249 00:15:43.590 --> 00:15:46.510 was, ah. And then a transgender says, this person says that. And they're sort of 250 00:15:46.510 --> 00:15:50.070 saying, oh, are you a she or a they? And it's like. It's just not 251 00:15:50.590 --> 00:15:54.390 the conversation. And it's like, we. We lose our. This, you know, this 252 00:15:54.390 --> 00:15:58.390 idea of crossing identities is very Very powerful. And, you know, which 253 00:15:58.390 --> 00:16:01.790 is something that's fascinating. But I think having a world for me 254 00:16:02.110 --> 00:16:06.070 built in the arts gave me this access, especially from the Northeast. 255 00:16:06.070 --> 00:16:08.590 It gave me access to people from different classes, different 256 00:16:09.390 --> 00:16:12.110 aspects, different journeys, you know, 257 00:16:13.310 --> 00:16:17.280 and it was a. It was a marvellous thing. It was true inclusivity and, 258 00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:20.640 you know, because actually what you're trying to do is to produce a performance and 259 00:16:20.640 --> 00:16:24.000 no one cares after a while. There was quite a lot of 260 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:27.920 sexism at the time, but no one cared after a while whether 261 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:30.920 you know, what you were, what you. Who you were or where you come from. 262 00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:34.600 It just mattered. That was a great performance. I say that as if it's true. 263 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.560 I mean, clearly there was a lot of untruth sitting behind that. But, you know, 264 00:16:37.560 --> 00:16:40.400 that was really what it's all about. I was in the freelance world as well. 265 00:16:40.400 --> 00:16:43.760 So freelance players were either you were either up to it or you weren't. 266 00:16:44.550 --> 00:16:48.550 And so, you know, it's been a founding part of my life before 267 00:16:48.550 --> 00:16:52.310 I went into commerce and even in commerce. I've always understood and 268 00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:57.350 had that sort of musical brain being able to see the world differently. 269 00:16:57.350 --> 00:17:01.070 I mean, I now think, you know, neurodiversity. I think Howard Gardner talked about this 270 00:17:01.070 --> 00:17:04.990 idea of multiple intelligence is slightly erroneous thing, but 271 00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:08.790 musical intelligence is quite an interesting concept 272 00:17:08.790 --> 00:17:11.750 and musical language and such like for those who habit. 273 00:17:12.790 --> 00:17:16.350 So I've always been able to see the world differently. And to a certain extent, 274 00:17:16.350 --> 00:17:19.670 I think I thought that explained being trans 275 00:17:20.550 --> 00:17:24.350 because I already looked at the world differently. I already used to 276 00:17:24.350 --> 00:17:27.990 think that everybody used to look at the mirror and think, well, I'm this. And 277 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:31.870 I look in the mirror and think, who's that? I thought every. Like posadamba. Don't 278 00:17:31.870 --> 00:17:35.510 know whether you had that experience. It's peculiar, isn't it? Just seeing a person you 279 00:17:35.510 --> 00:17:38.950 want being reflected back. Who is that? It's like when you watch Cats. So don't 280 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:41.710 you see Cats in the. Looking in the mirrors and the sort of, you know, 281 00:17:41.710 --> 00:17:44.370 that thing where they jump into the air and I think I spent a lot 282 00:17:44.370 --> 00:17:48.130 of time doing that. Yeah. I probably only became 283 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.050 hyper aware of that mirror 284 00:17:52.050 --> 00:17:55.970 image at the point when I was transitioning, I guess. 285 00:17:56.850 --> 00:18:00.850 And the dysphoria, you know, the. I was okay here, 286 00:18:01.570 --> 00:18:04.610 I was okay here. But it was on that bit in the middle where 287 00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:09.170 you just didn't see the reflection of the somebody who 288 00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:12.780 you believed you were on the inside. I could handle it. Looking at a bloke 289 00:18:12.780 --> 00:18:16.140 when I was a bloke, sort of thing, it didn't bother me but it was 290 00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:19.060 when I was embarking on my transition I was hyper aware 291 00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:24.300 imposter syndrome, passing a test, not being good 292 00:18:24.300 --> 00:18:27.700 enough for anybody. Who am I kidding? All that kind of dysphoric 293 00:18:28.260 --> 00:18:32.220 self loathing kicked in and it's only when I was able to break away from 294 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.300 that self loathing and that focus on what I look like 295 00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:39.860 because actually that became irrelevant. Actually what I looked like was not irrelevant at all 296 00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:44.030 how I felt and loved myself. And that's when I focused on 297 00:18:44.030 --> 00:18:47.870 that. It doesn't matter what you think of me, whether you 298 00:18:47.870 --> 00:18:50.350 criticise me or you slag me off. You don't like my voice, whatever it may 299 00:18:50.350 --> 00:18:54.190 be, that's not relevant. It's what's in my heart and my 300 00:18:54.190 --> 00:18:57.510 soul and my being that's the important. Who you are, 301 00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:02.350 the root of you. And I think sometimes I genuinely 302 00:19:02.350 --> 00:19:05.990 envy some of the young members of the trans population because 303 00:19:06.710 --> 00:19:10.710 just younger people because they've not grown up with those sort of stereotypical 304 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:14.690 roles. Lots more gender fluidity, there's 305 00:19:14.690 --> 00:19:18.610 lots more accept. I mean, you know, people used to be out there in 306 00:19:18.610 --> 00:19:21.330 my world if you had a pink shirt on, sorry a purple shirt on with 307 00:19:21.330 --> 00:19:25.210 big, big collars now I mean people come in wearing the most amazing clothes and 308 00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:29.050 you look at them and think that's incredible because societal 309 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:33.130 breakdown has happened around fashion and, and those sorts of things 310 00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:36.410 and I think the traditional idea of what a woman and a man looks like 311 00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:39.690 has broken down. This has allowed I think the non binary community to, 312 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:44.160 to sort of go ah, okay, that makes a lot of sense because I'm none 313 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.000 of those things. And you know that's, that's been a really wonderful opportunity for people 314 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.840 to, to think about that. Whether they're always a non binary or they move 315 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:55.040 from one side to the other or you know, it's part of a path, whatever 316 00:19:55.040 --> 00:19:59.040 that might be. I think, I think being non binary is very misunderstood possibly 317 00:19:59.040 --> 00:20:03.000 because it is that concept which is, it's not this rather 318 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.600 than being a something which is, which is very clear. It's an 319 00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:10.600 absence rather than a positive statement. Yes. It's like a vacuum, isn't it? It's 320 00:20:10.600 --> 00:20:14.020 like, you know, okay, I, that's not, doesn't got, hasn't got that in. But what 321 00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:16.700 is it that, what is it you are rather than what is that you're not? 322 00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:20.940 And I saw a good old J.K. rowling launching 323 00:20:21.340 --> 00:20:25.260 Seven Pennyworth into the conversation about agender people on a website 324 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:29.420 and. You know, asexual people. Yeah. Yeah, 325 00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:33.260 exactly. So there you go, confusing sexuality and gender again, 326 00:20:33.260 --> 00:20:37.020 as usual. But there you go. Well, there was this person, one of the presenters 327 00:20:37.020 --> 00:20:40.740 on TV news this morning, pontificating about the fact that now they don't have to 328 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:44.520 pander. The people who use they them pronoun. We know it's all rubbish. 329 00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:47.720 It's like, no, you're just extrapolating 330 00:20:48.360 --> 00:20:52.280 BS from this. It doesn't weaponize. It doesn't 331 00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:56.120 empower you. No, but you see, I was talking to someone and 332 00:20:56.280 --> 00:20:59.959 talking to Jenny, colleague of mine, who's a big YouTube 333 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.640 on the podcast, and it's something I've talked about for a long time. And I 334 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.960 remember a couple of the tech bros talking about this idea of woke 335 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.800 scolding, this idea that you're talking down to people, telling 336 00:21:10.800 --> 00:21:14.740 them this is not right and that's not right. And. And I've been a 337 00:21:14.740 --> 00:21:18.660 huge advocate of removing all that. And you know, what you're. You're 338 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.300 saying is, I don't want to be treated differently, I want to be treated the 339 00:21:21.300 --> 00:21:23.980 same as everybody else. And I'm not going to get bent out of shape for 340 00:21:23.980 --> 00:21:27.579 some of some of these things, because I understand. Takes you time to understand because 341 00:21:27.579 --> 00:21:31.300 you've got limited intelligence and you know, that's hard. And I get that. And 342 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:34.340 one of the things I think is we have spent a bit too much time 343 00:21:34.340 --> 00:21:37.500 focusing on the wrong things. I do think we spend too much time talking down 344 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:41.500 to people. I don't think we've. Actually, if I 345 00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:45.220 always like to say this, if you took our community and looked at the ROI 346 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:48.940 from our community in the performing arts and the soft power of the UK in 347 00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:52.700 the IT world, for goodness sake, we would be a significant 348 00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:57.940 community in terms of impact. No one talks about that. No one talks about 349 00:21:57.940 --> 00:22:01.740 the part we play within LGBTQIA umbrellas. 350 00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:04.580 No one talks about the impact of those people. And if they do, they don't 351 00:22:04.580 --> 00:22:08.480 talk about enough in a way that people get. And I think 352 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.400 for me, this is your point about not being 353 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.800 a community. We never sit down, do we, and think, actually, what are we worth? 354 00:22:15.800 --> 00:22:19.720 Not just individuals, but what are we actually worth in the UK economy? We're worth 355 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.680 a lot. I mean, how many IT firms would grow into a halt 356 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.120 if we took our transgender people 357 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.520 out of coding? Nothing would be flying for a while, would 358 00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:35.440 it? Well, certainly gender queer, gender fluid, gender expansive people. Yeah. The 359 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.930 whole spectrum. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 360 00:22:39.250 --> 00:22:42.290 And I think. And I think we. And I think that's the point, isn't it? 361 00:22:42.290 --> 00:22:45.850 The point is we need to Stand up for ourselves. We need to bring this 362 00:22:45.850 --> 00:22:49.650 evidence together. You know, one of the things in the arts funding at the moment 363 00:22:49.650 --> 00:22:53.450 is they're saying things like, well, actually, if you invest a pound into the arts 364 00:22:53.450 --> 00:22:56.610 community, you get something like three or four thousand pounds back 365 00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:01.770 into the cultural zeitgeist. And I mean, so that's the argument, isn't 366 00:23:01.770 --> 00:23:05.140 it? So invest, because actually you're going to get a return on investment. The issue 367 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.140 is how quickly does that return come? Okay, it's not quick enough. Let's figure 368 00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:12.100 out how we get that to return fast enough. Now we've got a different conversation. 369 00:23:12.100 --> 00:23:15.140 We're not saying we shouldn't, we're just saying how do we do it? And I 370 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:18.460 think this is the thing that's being missed again in our community. I'm not, by 371 00:23:18.460 --> 00:23:20.939 the way, suggesting that this is a piece of work we need or should be 372 00:23:20.939 --> 00:23:24.020 doing, but it's that sort of commercial thinking about the world. 373 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:27.660 It's about how we lead, how we manage, how we develop, how we think about 374 00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:31.140 cultures. It's about we've. We can, we can become 375 00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:35.540 so protective. We don't give people the tools to be 376 00:23:35.540 --> 00:23:39.280 able to have robust conversations. We can remove people and say. 377 00:23:39.760 --> 00:23:43.200 I remember someone asking me a question at a speaking event 378 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.840 and one of the facilities on the panel there was something quite 379 00:23:47.840 --> 00:23:51.680 innocuous saying that's hate speech is anti trans. I said, it's not 380 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.200 hate speech and not anti trans. A. I'm not offended because I've chosen to be, 381 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.160 but actually it's coming from a place where you're finding out when he wasn't calling 382 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.660 me something, it was asking. And I think this is the thing, isn't it? We. 383 00:24:04.410 --> 00:24:07.450 We run the risk of closing down arguments. We run the risk of 384 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:12.170 being vulnerable to the extent that we don't actually educate and inform 385 00:24:12.170 --> 00:24:15.530 people. And a lot of people, once they educate and informed, are quite 386 00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:19.410 okay there. I mean, it's a classic piece of research, isn't it? Once you met 387 00:24:19.410 --> 00:24:22.850 a trans. If you don't like trans people, A, you probably met one never knew. 388 00:24:22.850 --> 00:24:26.330 But if you have met an explicit trans person, you tend. Your opinions about trans 389 00:24:26.330 --> 00:24:30.220 people completely change at the end of it. Yeah, I think 390 00:24:30.220 --> 00:24:33.220 we've tried to create people accuse us of having an ideology 391 00:24:34.020 --> 00:24:37.700 and I think to a certain extent we've created language that 392 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:41.700 seems complex. We're forcing people to conform to our way of thinking. 393 00:24:41.780 --> 00:24:45.700 As a minority, we're trying to influence the majority. And I think sometimes what we 394 00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:49.380 probably need to do is be more tolerant ourselves I totally agree. 395 00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:54.580 And learn to navigate a world where we're not the majority, we're not the default, 396 00:24:55.250 --> 00:24:58.650 and therefore we have to figure it out. And no minority ever wants to fit 397 00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:02.290 here, that they're not included. But sometimes we have to work at it. And I 398 00:25:02.290 --> 00:25:06.050 think, I know if we attack people, 399 00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:11.170 your argument, if we go there with pitchforks, people tend to put the barricades 400 00:25:11.170 --> 00:25:14.170 up. So how do we lower the drawbridge? How do we get people to sit 401 00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:18.170