WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.830 --> 00:01:18.480 Today is episode 183 with the 19 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:22.240 title Owls and the Fouls. And I have the absolute honour and 20 00:01:22.240 --> 00:01:26.080 privilege to welcome Stephen Jasper Stephenis a jet lag 21 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:30.080 consultant and chrono diversity advocate who reshapes how 22 00:01:30.080 --> 00:01:33.520 we review time, productivity and work based 23 00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:37.400 inclusion. When I asked Stephen to describe his superpower, he said 24 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:40.920 it is providing simple interventions that help people manage 25 00:01:41.240 --> 00:01:44.870 not only their jet lag, but their working lives and 26 00:01:44.870 --> 00:01:48.630 productivity. Hello, Stephen, welcome to the show. Hello, 27 00:01:48.630 --> 00:01:52.390 Joanne. Thanks for the lovely welcome. Absolute pleasure. 28 00:01:53.350 --> 00:01:56.230 I could tell by your accent you're not from around these parts. 29 00:01:56.790 --> 00:02:00.310 I'm about as far away from those parts as you can get. Really? 30 00:02:00.550 --> 00:02:04.510 Yes, I am. I'll confess up front, I am an Australian and that's 31 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:08.350 why it's pitch black here. It's just gone midnight when you're 32 00:02:08.350 --> 00:02:12.190 interviewing me and I'm a bit of a night owl. Come back to that. And 33 00:02:12.190 --> 00:02:15.830 it's a public holiday here, so that's what I'm doing on my public 34 00:02:15.830 --> 00:02:19.230 holiday at midnight. So which public holiday is it? 35 00:02:19.790 --> 00:02:23.790 It's a public holiday called Anzac Day and the 36 00:02:23.790 --> 00:02:27.710 closest equivalent I know, the Americans have Veterans Day. What's 37 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:31.470 the UK equivalent? Armistice. Yeah. 38 00:02:31.470 --> 00:02:35.350 Remembrance Sunday. Armistice. Yeah, that kind of thing. Or Victory in Europe. 39 00:02:35.350 --> 00:02:39.250 VE Day. Those sort of things. Yeah, those sort of. It's. But 40 00:02:39.250 --> 00:02:43.130 it's a commemoration of a loss. So Anzac stands for Australia, 41 00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:47.010 New Zealand Army Corps. So of course it's celebrated in both Australia and New 42 00:02:47.010 --> 00:02:50.890 Zealand and it's a loss in a place called Gallipoli 43 00:02:50.890 --> 00:02:53.130 in Turkey. So 44 00:02:54.730 --> 00:02:57.890 10 years ago they had their hundredth anniversary and it was a very big and 45 00:02:57.890 --> 00:03:01.850 emotional deal. So we will have a dawn service 46 00:03:02.010 --> 00:03:05.970 and halfway between me and the city, I'm about eight kilometres out of the 47 00:03:05.970 --> 00:03:09.670 city, we have the shine of remembrance and there'll be a. A dawn 48 00:03:09.670 --> 00:03:13.390 service there for the fallen and fallen, those 49 00:03:13.390 --> 00:03:17.230 who. In war. And so there's going to be early morning trams, like 4 50 00:03:17.230 --> 00:03:21.110 o' clock in the morning transport to get people to the shrine of remembrance or 51 00:03:21.110 --> 00:03:24.630 other places of commemoration. So very. A very 52 00:03:25.190 --> 00:03:28.470 deep, meaningful. And I say sombre. Sombre. 53 00:03:28.870 --> 00:03:32.830 Sombre is a good word for sombre. Yeah, yeah. Reflection of the 54 00:03:32.830 --> 00:03:36.780 nation's loss. Yeah. And remembrance. And also gratitude to 55 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:40.260 those who fought for our nation. Yeah, it's. I don't know if you have the 56 00:03:40.260 --> 00:03:44.180 same expression. In Australia we would say lest we forget. 57 00:03:44.500 --> 00:03:48.500 It's a very much. Yeah, very much. That phrase 58 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:52.180 here. And we have the torch that gets lit and. 59 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:56.300 Okay, is that a thing that you do there? Is that an Australian 60 00:03:56.300 --> 00:04:00.180 thing? Like in a. An RSL or a legacy club with a member? They'll 61 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:04.160 say lest we forget. And there's a torch that gets lit. It's 62 00:04:04.160 --> 00:04:07.960 an electric light inside a torch. I don't know 63 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.640 that particular tradition. We will probably have a lone 64 00:04:11.640 --> 00:04:15.480 bugler trumpeting out the 65 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.400 last post. Yes, we have that, but you. Okay, we had the torch as 66 00:04:19.400 --> 00:04:23.320 well. So I'm not aware of the torch. So it's possible we 67 00:04:23.320 --> 00:04:27.320 would lay holly wreaths at the cenotaph or. Yeah, we would 68 00:04:27.320 --> 00:04:30.910 lay wreath to Hollywood. That's more of a First World War remembrance as well, 69 00:04:31.310 --> 00:04:35.150 right? Yes. And also rosemary sprigs. Is that a thing for you? 70 00:04:36.030 --> 00:04:39.390 I don't think we're big on rosemary sprigs in the. In the uk. But 71 00:04:39.790 --> 00:04:43.390 it's for remembrance. It's not to, you know, garnish your lamb roast. 72 00:04:43.950 --> 00:04:46.830 We have rosemary, but now we would use poppies. Poppy 73 00:04:47.390 --> 00:04:50.670 poppies are kind of our remembrance symbol. 74 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:53.950 We use poppies as well, but they tend to be 75 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.560 fake because I don't know that there's a lot of. They certainly don't grow wild 76 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:02.520 here. I have seen gardens near 77 00:05:02.520 --> 00:05:06.400 me, but, yeah, they don't. They're biodegradable these days. They used to be 78 00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:09.800 paper and plastic. Hopefully they're better now. Wow. 79 00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:13.800 We just had a quick cultural lesson, so thank you for that, Stephen. It was 80 00:05:13.880 --> 00:05:16.880 fascinating. I don't know if it's linked at all, but, you know, you are a 81 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:20.280 jet lag expert. And cranodiversity. You could talk a bit about 82 00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:23.310 cranodiversity. Is the fact you're in Australia 83 00:05:24.110 --> 00:05:27.230 contributing factor to the fact you're an expert in jet lag? 84 00:05:27.630 --> 00:05:31.550 Absolutely, absolutely. Australia is the best 85 00:05:31.550 --> 00:05:35.230 place in the world to research jet lag. And if you've ever 86 00:05:35.230 --> 00:05:38.030 flown here, you'll understand why. 87 00:05:39.230 --> 00:05:43.150 And I'll explain how I got into it, because how did this guy become 88 00:05:43.150 --> 00:05:46.830 a jet lag expert? So I started off life as a pharmacist and I was 89 00:05:47.150 --> 00:05:51.070 happy as a compounding pharmacist working in the hospital system. So 90 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:54.670 I'm one of those people that actually knows how to work in water and pestle. 91 00:05:54.670 --> 00:05:58.590 I can drive those things. And after about 92 00:05:58.590 --> 00:06:02.430 10 years in the hospital system and you get burnout. I hear stories 93 00:06:02.430 --> 00:06:06.030 about, you know, the nurses, especially during the pandemic, how 94 00:06:06.030 --> 00:06:09.790 exhausting it was. And I felt for them because I'd been, you know, in 95 00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:13.740 that and not in the pandemic. And I moved into the pharmaceutical industry, which 96 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:17.580 is a fairly logical progression. And I had a number of roles 97 00:06:17.580 --> 00:06:21.500 and I fell into a role where I did a lot of travel and 98 00:06:21.500 --> 00:06:25.460 there was no expectation that I travelled when I went for the job, either 99 00:06:25.460 --> 00:06:29.459 from the people hiring me or me myself, there was no expectation of travel. 100 00:06:29.459 --> 00:06:31.980 And I had a boss and he said, I'm sick of travel, you do it. 101 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:35.940 So I did it. And so I became one of the small number of Australians 102 00:06:35.940 --> 00:06:39.540 that does crazy travel. You know, could I fly to America through 103 00:06:40.070 --> 00:06:43.190 a week and stopped by London for a couple of days on my way home? 104 00:06:44.310 --> 00:06:48.190 That was normal. And I think my craziest travel, the one that 105 00:06:48.190 --> 00:06:51.870 really changed my life was a three day trip to Buenos 106 00:06:51.870 --> 00:06:55.830 Aires. And if you know anything, it's 11 time zones. The 107 00:06:55.830 --> 00:06:59.790 jet lag between here and South America is insane. It's about as bad 108 00:06:59.790 --> 00:07:03.630 as you can possibly get. And it was four flights going 109 00:07:03.630 --> 00:07:07.310 there from Melbourne to Sydney to Auckland to Santiago to 110 00:07:07.310 --> 00:07:11.010 Buenos Aires. Worked, you know, worked for two days, had a day off at the 111 00:07:11.010 --> 00:07:14.810 end of it and did it all in reverse. So that was, yeah, that 112 00:07:14.810 --> 00:07:18.450 was my craziest escapade. And so I had an interest 113 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:22.530 because I get shocking jet lag, you know, if I don't treat it. My jet 114 00:07:22.530 --> 00:07:26.410 lag is absolutely shocking, as I discovered on my first 115 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:30.410 overseas trip. And the thing that saved 116 00:07:30.410 --> 00:07:33.490 me, and I didn't know it at the time, but I know now 117 00:07:34.700 --> 00:07:38.660 on the first day, the people I was training said, hey, we're going 118 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:42.580 to lunch, we could drive you, but it's only a kilometre away. Do you 119 00:07:42.580 --> 00:07:45.620 want to go for a walk? I'd love to go for a walk and have, 120 00:07:45.620 --> 00:07:48.940 you know, see the streets of Buenos Aires. That's not something you see every day. 121 00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:53.500 And it was sunny, you know, it was Winter, but it was sunny 122 00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:57.740 and that sunlight absolutely saved me. So 123 00:07:57.740 --> 00:08:01.020 sunlight is a key thing. And so I did an MBA 124 00:08:01.870 --> 00:08:04.830 after that job and I wanted to do project management. 125 00:08:05.710 --> 00:08:09.670 Looked around, nothing interesting came up. I was being offered pretty much the 126 00:08:09.670 --> 00:08:13.030 same sort of roles that I'd done. So I thought, stop it, I'll do a 127 00:08:13.030 --> 00:08:16.270 PhD as you do. I was hunting around for things 128 00:08:16.750 --> 00:08:20.710 and my supervisor and research manager were all saying, no, that's rubbish, 129 00:08:20.710 --> 00:08:24.710 don't do that. And then I mentioned the whole jet lag, explain the story. 130 00:08:24.710 --> 00:08:28.560 And they said, yes, absolutely, this is what you should do, research. And 131 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:32.520 I did it. And that's how I became the jet lag guy. 132 00:08:32.520 --> 00:08:36.360 So, yes, I have a PhD in jet lag, so 133 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.320 wow. International management. So it was a 134 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.080 series of so many left turns. That's a spiral. I'm just 135 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.040 thinking there must be a, a whole collective of jet lag 136 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:51.960 PhD, experts of one. Yeah. 137 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.920 And also, I mean, there's lots of scientists that do circadian rhythm 138 00:08:55.920 --> 00:08:59.000 stuff. And that's great. We need more of that. And I cite them. 139 00:08:59.890 --> 00:09:03.690 But in terms of international management, now, bearing in 140 00:09:03.690 --> 00:09:06.930 mind I was doing it through what was then the College of Business and Law, 141 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:11.010 so people were writing about finance, economics, they're, you know, 142 00:09:11.010 --> 00:09:15.010 big on blockchain and of course all the various types of law. And I came 143 00:09:15.010 --> 00:09:18.770 across fairly late in my PhD, a study where they injected 144 00:09:19.570 --> 00:09:23.490 hamsters with Viagra for jet lag. And 145 00:09:23.810 --> 00:09:27.770 I had worked with Viagra in the clinical trials back in 97. I 146 00:09:27.770 --> 00:09:31.460 actually, you know, was up close and personal, you know, 147 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:35.940 with 2,000 bottles of Viagra, and it was still being researched. 148 00:09:37.140 --> 00:09:40.940 And so I dedicated a paragraph for my PhD to that 149 00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:44.940 statement, you know, and it's all done academically. I 150 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:48.780 think I lay claim to being the only person in that college to 151 00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:52.380 ever have written a paragraph about Viagra being injected into 152 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:56.360 hamsters for jet lag. So, yeah, that, that's, I think 153 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.960 that's unique. Blowing here, thinking, what other side effects did the hamster 154 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:03.920 exhibit with Viagra? Well, that's the funny 155 00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:07.480 thing. I mean, going back to, like I said, I've worked with Viagra. It started 156 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.440 off as a heart drug. It opens blood vessels, surprise, surprise, it 157 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.240 opens some other blood vessels. And one of the nurses in the very 158 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:19.080 early stage, like first time in humans trials, 159 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.840 asked the patient, did you notice anything? Well, actually, nurse, I 160 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.560 noticed. And da, da, da, da, da. And interestingly, 161 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.480 that same drug. I'm digressing here, that's 162 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.600 fascinating. Fascinating. Is used in a 163 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:38.200 serious cardiovascular condition called pulmonary arterial 164 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.680 hypertension. And it's fatal. It strokes 165 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.200 mostly young women. It's a horrible disease. But 166 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:49.560 the active drug sildenafil is used in that application to open up blood 167 00:10:49.560 --> 00:10:53.180 vessels and alleviate that. So it is still used as a 168 00:10:53.180 --> 00:10:56.700 cardiovascular drug, but it gets a lot more use with other uses. 169 00:10:57.020 --> 00:11:00.940 Yes, yes. And it's also now useful for jet lag, 170 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:04.780 but only in the eastbound direction. That's the other. 171 00:11:06.060 --> 00:11:10.020 That was my next question. In my 172 00:11:10.020 --> 00:11:13.580 earlier career I used to work for a private bank and they had offices 173 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:18.140 in Hong Kong, Singapore and la, San 174 00:11:18.140 --> 00:11:22.060 Diego, New York, Miami, east and west and Uruguay and 175 00:11:22.060 --> 00:11:25.980 Bahamas and Cayman, other other lovely places. So I used to 176 00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:29.460 fly regularly east, west, up, down across Europe and 177 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:33.539 further afield. And I was aware that there was a different 178 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:37.820 experience of east west travel to west east travel. 179 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:41.140 So what's, what's the, what's the okay 180 00:11:42.100 --> 00:11:45.950 for most people? And I'm going to put a, you know, red underline, 181 00:11:46.430 --> 00:11:50.230 yellow highlight. This is the kind of diversity kicking in for most 182 00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:52.910 people. East is a beast and west is best 183 00:11:54.190 --> 00:11:57.230 for most people. Flying east is a beast. And 184 00:11:57.790 --> 00:12:01.750 here's the thing. And for morning people it's the other way around. So let, let 185 00:12:01.750 --> 00:12:05.670 me unpack that because that just sounds random. So when you 186 00:12:05.670 --> 00:12:09.230 fly west, say if you're, you're in London, if you fly to Los Angeles, 187 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.240 the day seems to stretch out whether it's a long night or a long day, 188 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.880 but your day seems to stretch out. It seems to last longer than 189 00:12:16.880 --> 00:12:20.840 24 hours. So what you do is you stay up late and you 190 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.640 have a sleep in. But if you're a night owl, 191 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.560 lovely, that's fine. If 192 00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:32.320 you're a morning person, that's hard. And then going the 193 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:36.160 other way, flying east, the day seems to shrink. So 194 00:12:36.160 --> 00:12:40.120 your sun rises and sets less than 12 hours because you're flying against the 195 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.920 sun. So you have to go to bed early when you're not 196 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:46.760 really tired and wake up early when you still are tired. 197 00:12:47.640 --> 00:12:51.520 For night owl, that's hard going. But for 198 00:12:51.520 --> 00:12:55.400 a morning person or a foul, that's easier for them. 199 00:12:55.560 --> 00:12:59.000 Yep, they'll go to bed early and wake up early. So there's that 200 00:12:59.880 --> 00:13:03.720 intersection between direction of flight and chronodiversity. And that's where I 201 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.280 stumbled into onto that. And I'll give you an 202 00:13:07.280 --> 00:13:11.150 example from my own life. During my PhD, 203 00:13:11.150 --> 00:13:14.790 I got a scholarship to go to an international management 204 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:18.630 conference in Paris. You haven't had catering 205 00:13:18.630 --> 00:13:22.070 until you've been to an international management conference in Paris. But that's another 206 00:13:22.470 --> 00:13:25.190 story. But I noticed 207 00:13:26.230 --> 00:13:30.190 I flew there and it was my birthday. It's 208 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:33.470 the only time in my life I've ever had a warm birthday because my birthday's 209 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:37.320 in winter here. Landed and I was good 210 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.720 to go. And I just said to the conference 211 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.600 organisers, every break we get, I'll be going outside just to get 212 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:48.400 some sunlight. And then I knew coming back, 213 00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:52.600 I had to throw everything I could at it because I'm a night owl. This 214 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.440 is why I'm talking to you. Just after midnight, 215 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.440 I did. I managed my jet lag. Day two, day three, I went 216 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.240 to bed a little bit early, like 8:30, 9 o', clock, which is early for 217 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.160 me, but I didn't lose any productivity. And that's when I. Yeah, 218 00:14:08.160 --> 00:14:12.040 I'm onto something. I'm definitely onto something. And I did everything 219 00:14:12.040 --> 00:14:15.240 I needed to do. So coming back. 220 00:14:16.280 --> 00:14:20.160 So that directional component's absolutely vital. Yeah. I was 221 00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:23.400 thinking the last time I went long haul was Australia, 222 00:14:24.040 --> 00:14:27.640 Melbourne, where you're. Where you are. That was pre Covid 223 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.700 and I'd never travelled. Say 224 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:35.420 again from. I'm in Melbourne. I'm not from Melbourne, I'm from the other cities. 225 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:39.500 Sorry. Oops, Sorry. The most 226 00:14:39.500 --> 00:14:43.260 I'd ever flown before, I think in terms of time was 227 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:48.300 Singapore, Thailand, those sort of Hong Kong and they tend 228 00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:52.300 to be about 13 hours. From the UK was about eight, 229 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:56.430 I think. Singapore. Eight, was it? Yeah, maybe. Maybe 230 00:14:56.430 --> 00:15:00.230 it was Thailand. It was Thailand. Thailand, I think, is 231 00:15:00.230 --> 00:15:04.230 about. I think it might only about seven. No, it's definitely 232 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:06.030 more than that. I've. Yeah, I've done it. 233 00:15:08.270 --> 00:15:11.790 Singapore and Hong Kong are both +8 and Thailand's a little bit west 234 00:15:12.910 --> 00:15:16.110 time zone. I'm talking about flight time. Sorry, I'm talking about flight time. 235 00:15:16.670 --> 00:15:20.360 No, no, you're right. You're really right. Sorry. And I, 236 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.800 I. Because when we went to Melbourne, we went via Singapore. 237 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.040 Yeah, no, sorry, via. We went via Hong Kong. We stopped over in Hong Kong. 238 00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:32.240 I remember the journey. We got. We weren't rich, we. We went. We went coach. 239 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.040 We were at the back of the plane, knees on our chest like you do. 240 00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:38.520 And the flight to Hong Kong was absolutely 241 00:15:38.520 --> 00:15:42.320 painful. And then you have to get off and you have to do it 242 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.240 again. So you do 13 hours, have a couple of hours break 243 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.660 and then you got to do another eight. It was that second eight. It's very 244 00:15:49.660 --> 00:15:53.340 heady. Yeah. It's not quite as far 245 00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:56.740 from here to Hong Kong as it is from London, but it's still a long 246 00:15:56.740 --> 00:16:00.620 way. It's a long way, yeah. And so the jet lag was One thing, because, 247 00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:04.540 you know, you talked about the fact that you're flying into the sun or flying 248 00:16:04.540 --> 00:16:08.260 away from the sun when you're flying 18 hours total, the whole 249 00:16:08.260 --> 00:16:12.260 circadian rhythm gets messed up. You've gone past that. Is the day getting longer or 250 00:16:12.260 --> 00:16:16.170 shorter? It's wrapping itself, isn't it? Well, there's a couple 251 00:16:16.170 --> 00:16:19.890 of things to pull apart there. And the first is jet 252 00:16:19.890 --> 00:16:21.970 lag versus travel fatigue. 253 00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:27.570 And an example I would give to you. Say you 254 00:16:27.570 --> 00:16:31.490 want to fly to Cape Town in South Africa, but you can't get a direct 255 00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:35.490 flight. So you've got to do a couple of, you know, you've got 256 00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:39.450 the long flight to Johannesburg, then you're going to hang around Johannesburg airport, then you 257 00:16:39.450 --> 00:16:43.250 get another flight to Cape Town and then you, you get in a 258 00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:46.930 taxi and you get to your hotel, right? And of course there's the getting to 259 00:16:46.930 --> 00:16:50.810 the airport in London at your end. That's an exhausting 260 00:16:50.810 --> 00:16:54.650 journey. And you'll be tired, but you won't be jet lagged 261 00:16:54.650 --> 00:16:58.130 because you're very similar time zone. There's no 262 00:16:58.370 --> 00:17:02.010 travel fatigue. I mean, sorry, there's no real jet lag. There's travel 263 00:17:02.010 --> 00:17:05.450 fatigue. Lots of travel fatigue. The example I use in Australia is if we flew 264 00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:09.040 to Vladivostok, same thing, lots of travel 265 00:17:09.040 --> 00:17:12.880 fatigue. If on the other hand, they rebuilt the Concorde, 266 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.680 you know, or you know, some super duper. One article was 267 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:20.320 talking about London to Australia in three hours and you've got this super, 268 00:17:20.320 --> 00:17:24.280 supersonic jet, right? Let's say you boarded the supersonic jet and 269 00:17:24.280 --> 00:17:28.120 for that three hours there's soft pillows and, you know, 270 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.000 little meals and cups of tea and anything you could want, right? 271 00:17:33.970 --> 00:17:37.410 And you land in Melbourne three hours later, 272 00:17:38.370 --> 00:17:42.130 you won't have travel fatigue because you've had three hours just sitting very 273 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:46.010 comfortably. It's like going to the movies. But the jet lag will be 274 00:17:46.010 --> 00:17:49.809 brutal. So I want to pull those two things apart. The other 275 00:17:49.809 --> 00:17:53.610 thing is when you fly so far east, what can happen is your 276 00:17:53.610 --> 00:17:57.450 brain doesn't shrink the day. It's like it's flying 277 00:17:57.450 --> 00:18:00.130 west. And I've had that happen to me. You get so 278 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:05.110 disoriented because there's two mechanisms to adjust to 279 00:18:05.110 --> 00:18:09.110 flying east. You have phase advance. So you, you know, you 280 00:18:09.110 --> 00:18:13.070 go to bed and wake up early. That's called phase advance. Viagra 281 00:18:13.310 --> 00:18:17.270 helps with that mechanism. When you fly west, you have phase delay. You go 282 00:18:17.270 --> 00:18:21.070 to bed late and you wake up late and that's phase delay. And that's easier 283 00:18:21.070 --> 00:18:24.430 for most people. So what can happen if you Fly, say 284 00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:28.680 London to Australia and you're just so not coping. 285 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:32.360 What your body might do instead of doing phase advance, it might go into phase 286 00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:36.280 delay and take you longer to overcome your jet lag. So. 287 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:40.160 Yeah, absolutely. And that first flight from London to Hong Kong is 288 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.040 the one that, that's the terrible one in terms of time jet lag. 289 00:18:44.040 --> 00:18:47.720 That's an eight hour time difference. Hong Kong to 290 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:51.440 heat too, not a problem. So if you could stop at Hong 291 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.300 Kong, you know, rest up, that will help. Yeah, 292 00:18:55.620 --> 00:18:59.260 that's exactly what I did on my first round the world trip. I stopped at 293 00:18:59.260 --> 00:19:01.900 Hong Kong for a few days cause I knew my jet lag would be terrible 294 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:05.460 and it was. And I was fine. And I used the old Hong Kong airport. 295 00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:09.340 That was scary. I've landed in there when you're 296 00:19:09.340 --> 00:19:13.220 flying in. That was in the 90s. Yeah. Yes. 297 00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:16.260 You fall through the mountains and you land on a cricket pitch. 298 00:19:16.820 --> 00:19:20.580 Yeah. I remember distinctly about that was you could 299 00:19:20.580 --> 00:19:24.570 smell the sewers in the plane when you were on the tarmac and you 300 00:19:24.570 --> 00:19:28.490 could smell Hong Kong coming through. I remember seeing 301 00:19:28.490 --> 00:19:32.250 the slums. But what I also remember, 302 00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:35.530 at the end of the Runway there was a cafe 303 00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:39.130 and you could watch the planes landing or taking off. 304 00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:44.530 It just looked terrifying. You know, all that had to happen was for 305 00:19:44.530 --> 00:19:48.140 one plane not to break properly and it would plough straight into that cafe and. 306 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:52.130 And everyone seems perfectly oblivious to that. No, no, absolutely 307 00:19:52.130 --> 00:19:56.090 not. Get me out of here. If I fly to the 308 00:19:56.090 --> 00:20:00.010 us they tend to structure the flight so that you get on mid evening 309 00:20:00.010 --> 00:20:03.810 and then you're effectively landing and waking up at six in the morning and then 310 00:20:03.810 --> 00:20:06.330 you just get off the plane and get on with your day. And then in 311 00:20:06.330 --> 00:20:10.210 reverse you structure the flights and then morning. So getting off and then going home, 312 00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:13.490 going to bed and then try and kick your routine back in, is that kind 313 00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:17.330 of a good thing to do? It can be. I think going 314 00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:21.530 from the US to London is, will be harder for most people to having a 315 00:20:21.530 --> 00:20:25.170 day flight, I think I've done night flights, all my 316 00:20:25.170 --> 00:20:29.050 flights and they're brutal. The transatlantic eastbound crossings and 317 00:20:29.050 --> 00:20:32.730 I've done trans Pacific crossings a lot as well. But the 318 00:20:32.730 --> 00:20:36.610 transatlantics are the ones that get me because I don't get a chance 319 00:20:36.610 --> 00:20:40.370 to nap. I don't the overnight ones. So yeah, a day 320 00:20:40.370 --> 00:20:44.080 flight I think would be better. You know, the overnight ones. 321 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:48.120 I be lucky to sleep for two hours on a 322 00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:51.440 transatlantic flight. And if you do it in this height of summer, 323 00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:55.520 you've got sunlight most of the way anyway. There's not Much night. 324 00:20:56.320 --> 00:21:00.240 You're flying that far north. When I was flying a lot, let's say 325 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.600 back in the 90s, I used to do a lot of short haul. Let's say 326 00:21:04.320 --> 00:21:07.440 it was to. From London to Zurich. I guess that short haul, two and a 327 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.390 half, three hours or whatever it was. We had domestic flights, given 328 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:14.710 that here. Yeah. I got so used to it 329 00:21:15.110 --> 00:21:18.870 that I could literally fall asleep before 330 00:21:18.950 --> 00:21:22.790 takeoff. And I would land as we landed. 331 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:25.990 I would chop and wake up as we hit the tarmac at the other end. 332 00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:29.790 And I'd probably let out an expletive out of my mouth, go, that just 333 00:21:29.790 --> 00:21:33.590 happened something. Because I was mid deep sleep. Everyone around me 334 00:21:33.590 --> 00:21:37.580 going, what the hell is this going on? But now I found it 335 00:21:37.820 --> 00:21:40.620 very easy to fall asleep on those short hauls. 336 00:21:41.900 --> 00:21:45.820 And my technique for long haul is get on there and pick about four 337 00:21:45.820 --> 00:21:49.820 movies. And the movie that I'm not that fussed about is always 338 00:21:49.820 --> 00:21:52.740 the third or fourth one. Because I know by the time I've watched the first 339 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:56.700 two that my brain is now getting to the tiresome stage. 340 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:00.580 Then I found myself forcing myself to stay awake for the third. And generally I 341 00:22:00.580 --> 00:22:04.060 miss most of it. It's a bit like go for an operation. They inject you 342 00:22:04.060 --> 00:22:07.500 and say, count back from 10. You know, you never get past two. I never 343 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:11.220 get past the third movie sort of thing. So it's a. It's a good technique 344 00:22:11.220 --> 00:22:15.020 that I've learned over the years. Now I'm 345 00:22:15.020 --> 00:22:18.820 one of those strange people. They call it raw dogging, which sounds 346 00:22:18.820 --> 00:22:22.780 positively obscene. It's not. I just like to watch the flight map. 347 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.260 I don't really want to watch movies. I don't want to have headphones in. 348 00:22:30.260 --> 00:22:33.680 I just. I just want to see my flight map. 349 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.720 And I'm. I think we are relatively rare in 350 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.520 the population in that we fall asleep on planes. I know, you know, I get 351 00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:46.240 the white noise and there's light vibration and bang, I'm out. But I know most 352 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.800 people can't sleep on planes and they complain they can't sleep on planes. And I 353 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:53.280 can't stay awake on the things, you know. So, yeah, 354 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.160 I put a lot of weight on over. Over Covid and other things, and I 355 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:02.400 flew to San Francisco. I found that really, really 356 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.360 difficult to fly to San Francisco a couple of years ago after Covid, because I 357 00:23:05.360 --> 00:23:08.480 was a lot bigger. I was a lot more cramped. I was just 358 00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:12.880 uncomfortable. And it's. It really, as you say, that, 359 00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:16.960 that travel fatigue combined with the jet lag and just 360 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:20.000 that frustration of the whole cramped in space, 361 00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:24.900 it's just, it's painful, isn't it? And the airlines know that that's 362 00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:28.780 the, the problem. And they, they charge you premium to book a bigger 363 00:23:28.780 --> 00:23:32.740 seat or to have pick your aisle. And it's like you trap me in 364 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:36.100 the middle up middle aisle or you trap me by the window with a family 365 00:23:36.100 --> 00:23:39.860 next to me. It's hell, isn't it? Well, I, 366 00:23:40.020 --> 00:23:43.780 I hate the middle seats. I really don't like the big planes. I'm happier 367 00:23:43.780 --> 00:23:47.700 on not the tiny ones, but you know, medium sized planes where I like 368 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:48.900 being next to the window. 369 00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:55.630 But yeah, I think the flight from Raleigh Durham to London, 370 00:23:55.870 --> 00:23:59.430 I was near a whole lot of families with small children. So that was an 371 00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:03.270 overnight flight from Raleigh Durham international to London. So what's the 372 00:24:03.270 --> 00:24:07.150 recovery time? You know, I get you have the jet lag and I appreciate 373 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:10.710 everyone's different, but how the body's natural 374 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:13.390 recovery, what is the kind of process it goes through? 375 00:24:14.430 --> 00:24:17.950 The rule of thumb is about a day per hour 376 00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:21.760 crossed. That's the rule of thumb. Bearing in mind 377 00:24:21.760 --> 00:24:25.320 a few things. First of all, that it's easy to 378 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:27.720 recover from west than east for most people. 379 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:31.920 So like I said, when I went to Paris, I just got off the plane, 380 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.880 I'm good to go. Off we go. And 381 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:39.480 when I went back, I managed to telescope it. 382 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.720 I interviewed someone for my podcast. 383 00:24:43.800 --> 00:24:47.720 So it's wonderful doing a podcast. I don't have to press any buttons here. 384 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.180 You can do that. And he investigated Canadian in speed 385 00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:55.060 skaters. He's based in Montreal and they 386 00:24:55.060 --> 00:24:58.820 looked at speed skaters and they recovered much more quickly than they anticipated. 387 00:24:59.060 --> 00:25:03.060 So I think the state of health is important. Of course these speed skaters 388 00:25:03.060 --> 00:25:06.979 are in peak condition. They have to be speed 389 00:25:06.979 --> 00:25:07.700 skaters. 390 00:25:11.780 --> 00:25:15.660 But the rule of thumb is a day for every hour cross. So if 391 00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:19.380 you're crossing 10 time zones, which you do from to London, give 392 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:23.380 yourself 10 days. But I think it could be less. And I think 393 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:27.300 there's lots of things you can do to manage that. If I'm, if 394 00:25:27.300 --> 00:25:31.180 I'm spending 10 days in Melbourne, it's going to take me 395 00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:34.940 10 days when I'm in Melbourne to recover from the 10 days I'm in Melbourne. 396 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:39.140 And then I ping back again. Is that 10 days plus 10 days, 397 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:42.860 that's 20 days of recovery or does the reverse offset it? 398 00:25:42.860 --> 00:25:46.350 No. Yep. Well, there are some. An 399 00:25:46.350 --> 00:25:49.830 airline crew typically do this and this is why they don't want you to open 400 00:25:49.830 --> 00:25:53.790 the windows, by the way, the blinds. Obviously not 401 00:25:53.790 --> 00:25:57.390