WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.350 And today is episode 183 with the total 19 00:01:19.270 --> 00:01:23.070 authenticity over assimilation. And I have the 20 00:01:23.070 --> 00:01:26.990 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Jenny Chen. Jenny is 21 00:01:26.990 --> 00:01:30.790 a former top ranking finance professional turned DEI consultant 22 00:01:31.030 --> 00:01:34.310 who is on a mission to dismantle performative inclusion 23 00:01:34.790 --> 00:01:37.350 and rebuild cultures where 24 00:01:39.110 --> 00:01:42.830 authenticity thrives. That's easy for you to say. And when I asked 25 00:01:42.830 --> 00:01:46.650 Jenny to describe her superpower, she said that is her relentless 26 00:01:46.650 --> 00:01:50.250 curiosity that drives transformative conversations 27 00:01:50.410 --> 00:01:54.090 and systemic change. Hello Jenny, welcome to the show. 28 00:01:55.130 --> 00:01:59.050 Thanks so much Jo for having me. Absolute pleasure. We've 29 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:02.090 had a good natural ready in the green room and we were in danger of 30 00:02:02.090 --> 00:02:04.570 losing all the material on the cutting room floor so I had to quickly get 31 00:02:04.570 --> 00:02:08.410 on here and press record. So you were telling me you're from Canada, 32 00:02:08.490 --> 00:02:12.010 is that right? Yep, I'm from Ottawa, Canada. 33 00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:16.370 Welcome to we are the capital of our great nation 34 00:02:16.370 --> 00:02:19.930 and we actually just finished with our 35 00:02:19.930 --> 00:02:23.650 Canadian federal elections a couple weeks ago. And 36 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:27.490 so we are all a little politics doubt right now. Mark 37 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:31.450 Carney, I mean the UK know Mark Carney well as our former bank of 38 00:02:31.450 --> 00:02:35.450 England governor. I guess secretly we were all probably egging him 39 00:02:35.450 --> 00:02:39.290 on as a honorary Brit for a few 40 00:02:39.290 --> 00:02:43.040 years. You know what, it's so, it's so crazy right now because you 41 00:02:43.040 --> 00:02:46.440 know, as you know in the world there's so much political 42 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:50.640 unrest, right. Even in countries. I have never, I'm, I'm 43 00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:54.600 almost 40 and Joe, I have never really paid 44 00:02:54.600 --> 00:02:58.040 attention to nor really cared about Canadian 45 00:02:58.040 --> 00:03:01.880 politics before because even our biggest problems used to be 46 00:03:01.880 --> 00:03:04.840 just cute, cute compared to other global 47 00:03:05.690 --> 00:03:09.370 issues happening. And this was the first time where our 48 00:03:10.570 --> 00:03:14.570 normally conservative family were really challenged with 49 00:03:14.570 --> 00:03:18.450 the decision on who we wanted representing us. And this 50 00:03:18.450 --> 00:03:22.170 time we actually voted with Our moral values versus the political 51 00:03:22.250 --> 00:03:25.970 party that it was. So, yes, we actually voted for Mark Carney. We egged him 52 00:03:25.970 --> 00:03:28.410 on too, because 53 00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:33.600 we, you know, Prime Minister is what, in the 54 00:03:33.600 --> 00:03:37.520 UK too? They last what, four, eight years maybe. But the 55 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.880 values that we want shaping our country today 56 00:03:42.160 --> 00:03:46.000 lasts for generations. Right. So, yeah, 57 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.960 interesting times. I've seen that in the UK as well, where there's 58 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.960 this real blurred line between the traditional colours, the reds, the 59 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.880 blues, the oranges, the greens, and people are starting to 60 00:03:57.880 --> 00:04:01.860 work out that you can't get everything from one person or you can't get everything 61 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:05.620 from anybody. You got to try and pick and choose and sometimes you end up 62 00:04:05.620 --> 00:04:09.460 picking and choosing the least worst option. One party says has something you 63 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:13.460 really, really strongly disagree with, but they do. Lots you do agree 64 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:17.220 with. You've got to be careful here that you don't end up absorbing stuff that 65 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:20.220 you don't want to get what you do want. And you've got to try and 66 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:24.220 balance that in your own sort of psyche as to which is best for 67 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:28.020 the long term future of the country. And sometimes we're allowing people in 68 00:04:28.020 --> 00:04:31.720 with really, really dangerous views because they do 69 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.640 some things we like. Yeah. And we 70 00:04:35.640 --> 00:04:39.560 really have to step back, you know, and 71 00:04:39.640 --> 00:04:43.320 instead of thinking, what's in it for me? What is this party 72 00:04:43.400 --> 00:04:47.400 or what is this leader going to do for me personally, you 73 00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:51.320 know, and, and take a look at the bigger picture, the next generation, 74 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.450 how this is going to impact. Right. Like we talked about in 75 00:04:55.450 --> 00:04:59.290 the Green Room, we talked about the climate in the US right 76 00:04:59.290 --> 00:05:03.250 now and how polarising it has 77 00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:06.130 become and how openly people with 78 00:05:06.610 --> 00:05:10.610 discriminatory behaviours. Right. Racism, sexism, 79 00:05:10.690 --> 00:05:14.450 homophobia, xenophobia. The current 80 00:05:14.450 --> 00:05:18.210 administration has just given them more confidence and a 81 00:05:18.210 --> 00:05:21.970 voice to share a lot of those hateful rhetorics that 82 00:05:22.590 --> 00:05:26.350 I was hoping were a thing of our past. But we know better, 83 00:05:26.350 --> 00:05:30.110 you and I, Joe, that they're still very, very much a pervasive 84 00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:34.070 issue broadly. And so, you know, those. It comes back to values, 85 00:05:34.070 --> 00:05:37.790 right, that are shaping the next generation, not just our 86 00:05:37.790 --> 00:05:41.750 generation. Yeah, so true, so true. And I think, if anything, I think what the 87 00:05:41.750 --> 00:05:45.150 US is doing is giving a world 88 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:49.190 model that you can either embrace or you can reject. And 89 00:05:49.190 --> 00:05:53.110 I think if nothing else, that administration is. Everyone else 90 00:05:53.110 --> 00:05:56.970 is waking up and going, if we're not careful, we will slide into that 91 00:05:56.970 --> 00:06:00.890 ourselves. If we don't want that, now's our chance to do something about it rather 92 00:06:00.890 --> 00:06:04.410 than sliding in. And then once it's happened, it's too late. People are seeing that 93 00:06:05.130 --> 00:06:08.810 this can happen. This slide into authoritarianism is real. 94 00:06:09.370 --> 00:06:12.170 We experienced that this year up 95 00:06:13.370 --> 00:06:17.050 in the Canadian elections. Our Conservative Party leader 96 00:06:17.130 --> 00:06:20.890 here shared. They actually call him Maple Trump. And 97 00:06:20.890 --> 00:06:24.690 he shared a lot of the viewpoints in example, saying, 98 00:06:24.690 --> 00:06:28.590 you know, racism doesn't exist unless we talk about racism, so 99 00:06:28.590 --> 00:06:32.230 everybody just stop talking about racism and it'll go away. And it's like, 100 00:06:32.550 --> 00:06:36.270 that doesn't really make sense. Right. And as a. As a racialized 101 00:06:36.270 --> 00:06:39.790 woman, as a Chinese Canadian immigrant, I came here in 102 00:06:39.790 --> 00:06:43.350 1989 as a political refugee during the 103 00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:46.950 Tiananmen Square massacre. I can tell you that 104 00:06:47.590 --> 00:06:51.310 it's very much deeply rooted in our systems. 105 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:54.890 And so saying we shouldn't talk about it and it'll go away 106 00:06:55.130 --> 00:06:58.970 is exactly why systemic gender barriers, racial 107 00:06:58.970 --> 00:07:02.890 barriers, all kinds of discrimination continue to happen because we treat it 108 00:07:02.890 --> 00:07:06.730 like it doesn't exist. Look at indigenous peoples in 109 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:10.810 our country right across the world. So, yeah, very, very interesting. 110 00:07:10.890 --> 00:07:14.250 It's funny that you were just introducing my 111 00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:18.820 episode as authenticity, and here we are spreading, spending 112 00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:22.660 this much time talking about politics, but I think it's more about. These are 113 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:26.420 the topics that impact each and every single 114 00:07:26.420 --> 00:07:30.300 person right. In society. And why don't we talk 115 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:33.980 about these things? So thanks for giving me a space and a 116 00:07:33.980 --> 00:07:37.700 platform to share some of my perspectives. Yeah. 117 00:07:37.700 --> 00:07:41.660 And you just dropped the Tiananmen Square bombshell on me there. And I'm 118 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:45.650 now thinking, wow, I can't let that pass without listening to 119 00:07:45.650 --> 00:07:48.850 some of your experience about that time in that. In the country. 120 00:07:49.570 --> 00:07:53.410 I saw it, I mean, 1989. I was how old? I was probably 121 00:07:54.290 --> 00:07:58.290 1920 about then. Yeah, about that age. And I'm 122 00:07:58.290 --> 00:08:02.130 thinking I didn't really understand world politics. So we got the iconic 123 00:08:02.130 --> 00:08:06.050 image of the lone person confronting a tank 124 00:08:06.290 --> 00:08:09.930 and holding up the tanks in Tiananmen Square. That's kind of the iconic world image 125 00:08:09.930 --> 00:08:13.330 of Tiananmen Square. You were there living it as a. As a Chinese 126 00:08:13.330 --> 00:08:16.730 citizen. So what was going on in the country at that time, if you don't 127 00:08:16.730 --> 00:08:20.170 mind sharing. Yeah. So I was very young, 128 00:08:20.730 --> 00:08:24.170 I would say, so my experience is limited. 129 00:08:24.570 --> 00:08:28.570 I was in Changsha, Hunan. That's where I was born. It's actually 130 00:08:28.570 --> 00:08:32.490 Chairman Mao's hometown. So when you go back home, 131 00:08:32.890 --> 00:08:36.570 when I go back to visit, people see Chairman 132 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:40.559 Mao as this icon, this hero. Right. 133 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.399 And I recall, because I was in Canada at the time the 134 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.839 Tiananmen Square massacre happened. My father was here 135 00:08:48.079 --> 00:08:51.959 on a scholarship pursuing his PhD in 136 00:08:51.959 --> 00:08:55.679 computer science. And my mom and I came. I was three years old at the 137 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:59.679 time, Joe. We came to Visit him in April 1989 and 138 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.439 June is when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened. And 139 00:09:03.439 --> 00:09:06.959 the previous Prime Minister Trudeau, the senior 140 00:09:07.410 --> 00:09:11.250 Prime Minister Trudeau, granted all Chinese nationals 141 00:09:11.490 --> 00:09:15.010 landed immigrant or permanent resident status right here 142 00:09:15.330 --> 00:09:19.330 in Canada for asylum. And we were not 143 00:09:19.330 --> 00:09:23.250 able to go back home. My mom and dad left everything 144 00:09:23.490 --> 00:09:27.330 they knew, everyone they knew behind because we had to take 145 00:09:27.330 --> 00:09:31.010 up residence in Canada. And I am, and again, I was so young. 146 00:09:31.010 --> 00:09:34.780 I really am grateful 147 00:09:34.940 --> 00:09:38.780 for the opportunity to be here. But sometimes it 148 00:09:39.020 --> 00:09:42.780 gives you that perspective that others might 149 00:09:42.780 --> 00:09:46.620 not have if you're born in a country, right. And we talk about 150 00:09:47.020 --> 00:09:50.980 we still have refugees seeking asylum all over the 151 00:09:50.980 --> 00:09:54.700 world because they're fleeing war, genocide, 152 00:09:54.780 --> 00:09:58.500 anything, Right. And it allows me, I think, 153 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:02.320 to have a much more compassionate 154 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.040 and also pragmatic lens when it comes to things 155 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:09.040 like immigration. So back to 156 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.120 politics. You know, we were saying that 157 00:10:13.680 --> 00:10:17.560 the values that shape our country. Well, if a 158 00:10:17.560 --> 00:10:21.200 leader or a party are against immigration 159 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.440 or have a very negative rhetoric to immigration, 160 00:10:25.680 --> 00:10:29.020 I say that that deeply impacts the 161 00:10:29.020 --> 00:10:32.780 values that I have grown up with. As a first generation 162 00:10:32.780 --> 00:10:36.460 immigrant, I've got. No lived experience of 163 00:10:36.460 --> 00:10:40.420 that kind of scenario. Effectively went on holiday and never went 164 00:10:40.420 --> 00:10:44.100 home, really. Yeah. Never went home. Your home, your 165 00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:48.060 possessions, your television or your clothes or your toys 166 00:10:48.220 --> 00:10:51.900 as a young person, your friends, your school suddenly 167 00:10:52.470 --> 00:10:56.470 gone, you know, you now have a new life. And I would imagine 168 00:10:57.830 --> 00:11:01.830 your command of English was almost non existent at 169 00:11:01.830 --> 00:11:05.830 that age when you were just learning to speak anyway. But yeah, you had to 170 00:11:05.830 --> 00:11:08.589 learn a new language and you had to parents had to learn a new language 171 00:11:08.589 --> 00:11:12.470 and you had to become part of the Canadian culture. That's a 172 00:11:12.470 --> 00:11:16.270 huge, huge undertaking for any family. You know how I learned 173 00:11:16.270 --> 00:11:19.910 English, Joe? We shared a basement apartment in 174 00:11:19.910 --> 00:11:23.630 Kitchener Waterloo. It's a very university town here, very small 175 00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:27.570 town. I watched Disney movies, so Alice in Wonderland, 176 00:11:27.570 --> 00:11:31.450 Little Mermaid, Cinderella were my first three Disney movies. And 177 00:11:31.450 --> 00:11:35.170 I watched, you'll laugh at this, a lot 178 00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:39.010 of old 80s 90s action 179 00:11:39.170 --> 00:11:42.330 movies with Sylvester Stallone, Arnold 180 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:45.490 Schwarzenegger. And. Because in China 181 00:11:46.050 --> 00:11:49.970 they're so popular, right, that they have actually 182 00:11:50.210 --> 00:11:53.730 phonetically, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can't translate that into Mandarin, 183 00:11:54.640 --> 00:11:58.440 but they phonetically have created names for all these 184 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:02.200 movie stars. So that's all I knew when I was growing up. But yeah, it 185 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.840 was wild. And realistically, a lot of the 186 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.839 nuances from China we carried over 187 00:12:09.839 --> 00:12:13.800 with us, right? So in communist China, this is all 188 00:12:13.800 --> 00:12:17.720 I'm told from my parents, because I don't remember, obviously 189 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:21.680 I was too young. But in communist China, right, Like we 190 00:12:21.680 --> 00:12:25.480 Lived on rations. So monthly the government 191 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.720 would hand out rations of like this much cooking 192 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:33.000 oil, this much rice. And I don't think anybody really 193 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:36.960 understands during that time what that was like 194 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:40.920 for a, for a growing family with two parents 195 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.520 and a child. And then even my 196 00:12:44.520 --> 00:12:48.264 grandmother to the day she passed away in 20, 197 00:12:48.456 --> 00:12:52.330 2017, she used to be a devout 198 00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:56.170 Buddhist and she prayed in her closet. And 199 00:12:56.170 --> 00:12:59.930 growing up watching that, I never understood that. Right. Because here 200 00:13:00.170 --> 00:13:03.450 there's all, there's freedom of religion. Nobody is 201 00:13:04.010 --> 00:13:07.610 hopefully ostracised in communities for their religion. But 202 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:12.250 in China, if you have religion during that time, during the Cultural 203 00:13:12.250 --> 00:13:14.810 Revolution, you'd go to jail or worse. 204 00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:19.780 Right. And so for 30 years she lived in Canada. 205 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.740 She prayed in her little tiny, not even a walk in 206 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:27.220 closet, just a corner of her closet. So, yeah, these things 207 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:30.420 really shaped your experiences growing up, right? 208 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:35.860 Wow. Wow, that's. What a story. And yeah, thank you so 209 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.620 much for sharing that. It's. Yeah, it's incredible to hear 210 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:44.100 this truth. So you were in this finance 211 00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:48.060 environment, a male dominated industry, and you realised 212 00:13:48.060 --> 00:13:51.020 that it wasn't as easy for you as it was for others. And was that 213 00:13:51.020 --> 00:13:54.940 because of being a woman, Was that because being of Chinese descent or was 214 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:58.820 it a combination of those factors? Yeah, so that's a 215 00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:02.580 great question. I found that 216 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:06.100 I didn't know I was experiencing 217 00:14:06.420 --> 00:14:10.120 systemic barriers or that I was different until 218 00:14:10.280 --> 00:14:14.240 someone told me I was different. Right. Until someone told 219 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.720 me I was going through or experiencing 220 00:14:17.880 --> 00:14:21.880 sexism or racism. Because by 221 00:14:21.880 --> 00:14:25.599 virtue of assimilating at a very young 222 00:14:25.599 --> 00:14:29.320 age, learning the language, trying to fit in, 223 00:14:29.560 --> 00:14:33.320 I think that as a survival mechanism, I 224 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.320 never wanted to stand out. So spending also six 225 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.550 years in Plano, Texas when my dad worked in 226 00:14:40.550 --> 00:14:44.270 telecommunications. Right. You just don't want to stand out. And 227 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.630 so in my career, I was often 228 00:14:48.190 --> 00:14:52.110 the only woman or the only 229 00:14:52.430 --> 00:14:56.030 person of colour. And then realistically, when I started 230 00:14:56.030 --> 00:14:59.470 raising these experiences to our leaders, 231 00:14:59.790 --> 00:15:03.710 I feel like it wasn't being challenged 232 00:15:03.710 --> 00:15:07.510 enough. Right. Some of these systems weren't being challenged enough. So I felt 233 00:15:07.510 --> 00:15:11.510 compelled to just, hey, say hey, take a step back 234 00:15:11.510 --> 00:15:15.390 and look at this experience. And this is DEI as 235 00:15:15.390 --> 00:15:19.190 an element of a person, right? This is sexism. And 236 00:15:19.190 --> 00:15:22.470 the emotions that I felt 237 00:15:23.590 --> 00:15:27.470 being the recipient of these actions so that 238 00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:31.190 we could hopefully help dismantle them in our 239 00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:34.390 organisation. And then I was appointed 240 00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:38.230 a DEI leader for our global wealth management 241 00:15:38.630 --> 00:15:42.500 firm because like many women, and especially 242 00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:46.580 women of colour, that title is often given to 243 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:50.340 us based on our lived experience and not because 244 00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:54.620 it's something I ever pursued Right. I was a salesperson through 245 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:58.260 and through and I had no HR experience. But 246 00:15:58.260 --> 00:16:02.180 realistically, Joe, what I realised during my time 247 00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:06.220 leading DEI efforts for a few 248 00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:10.120 years that, you know, I'm a business 249 00:16:10.280 --> 00:16:14.200 strategist through and through, and I realised we could not, 250 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.280 as a global organisation, accelerate our 251 00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:22.280 growth or drive innovation if we 252 00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:25.960 were stuck in the same way. Our, 253 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.920 our organisation was built in a time where women didn't have 254 00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:33.880 the right to work, right. Weren't included in our workforce, didn't 255 00:16:33.880 --> 00:16:37.330 even have the right to vote. And we 256 00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:40.810 continued operating and leading inclusion 257 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:44.850 and belonging in a separate silo in 258 00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:48.490 an HR initiative off the side of the desk of a lot of 259 00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:52.650 our leaders and decision makers. So 260 00:16:52.650 --> 00:16:56.130 my journey, as I said, into DEI wasn't in the 261 00:16:56.130 --> 00:16:59.690 classroom, but really began through these 262 00:16:59.770 --> 00:17:03.370 lived experiences. Again, I eventually 263 00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:07.440 was able to integrate our, what we 264 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.720 really wanted as dei, as a value, 265 00:17:11.600 --> 00:17:15.600 into our core operations, into our business as 266 00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:19.040 usual. So instead of just featuring our black 267 00:17:19.360 --> 00:17:22.720 Asianized women wealth management 268 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.960 professionals on International Women's Day, Black History 269 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.800 Month, you know, Asian American Pacific Islander 270 00:17:30.800 --> 00:17:34.240 Heritage Month, integrating that and highlighting that 271 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.680 in our regular programming, like it's not, it's not rocket 272 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.400 science. Right. And so I took a step out of corporate 273 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.120 finance and I actually started my own management consulting firm called 274 00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:49.800 Catalyst Consulting, where we help organisations do 275 00:17:49.800 --> 00:17:52.680 exactly this, right, integrating 276 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.760 inclusive business practises, equitable business practises, 277 00:17:56.840 --> 00:18:00.680 inclusive leadership into their core operations 278 00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:04.760 because that's the only way that we will be able to drive long lasting 279 00:18:05.340 --> 00:18:09.180 sustainable change. Yeah, I, I, I think I realised that 280 00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:12.980 had an epiphany probably about 10 years ago when I did a transition that in 281 00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:16.620 my most of my life I'd never appreciated what it 282 00:18:16.620 --> 00:18:20.580 liked, what it was like to not have advantage, what it was like to 283 00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:24.540 not be considered, to be not the default, to be not in the majority. 284 00:18:25.100 --> 00:18:28.860 And it's only when you step over that line into an environment where you 285 00:18:28.860 --> 00:18:32.730 are suddenly the minority, the marginalised, the voiceless, the 286 00:18:32.730 --> 00:18:36.610 different, that you realise how cold, how bleak it can be 287 00:18:36.610 --> 00:18:40.530 over there. I would imagine when you're with your own 288 00:18:40.530 --> 00:18:43.770 community, within Chinese community, you're in the majority 289 00:18:44.650 --> 00:18:47.770 and it's very easy to feel that sense of belonging, but if you step out 290 00:18:47.770 --> 00:18:51.770 into that other zone, you're not. How can we get 291 00:18:52.570 --> 00:18:56.370 people who are in the majority and we can use the term 292 00:18:56.370 --> 00:18:59.540 privileged, if you like, to start being aware 293 00:19:00.260 --> 00:19:04.220 of that difference of experience. Yeah. So you raise an 294 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:08.180 interesting point because this is something that I navigated, 295 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:11.860 but also my kids are navigating right now where, 296 00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:16.820 yes, you would think that if I'm with a community 297 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:21.140 of other Asianized people that 298 00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:24.820 I would have a stronger sense of belonging. But 299 00:19:25.060 --> 00:19:28.860 remember I came here when I was three years old, very quickly 300 00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:32.300 assimilated, as I mentioned, as a survival mechanism. 301 00:19:32.780 --> 00:19:36.540 So growing up, like we didn't even, we weren't even speaking English 302 00:19:36.540 --> 00:19:40.540 like Chinese at home. We weren't. We. I lost my language so long 303 00:19:40.540 --> 00:19:44.380 ago to learn English and then French because 304 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:48.340 we're in Canada and those were the things we 305 00:19:48.340 --> 00:19:52.100 needed to do in order to, like, my parents wanted to fit 306 00:19:52.100 --> 00:19:55.750 in, to be successful here. And so 307 00:19:55.910 --> 00:19:59.350 growing up I wasn't Chinese enough 308 00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:03.910 or considered Chinese enough for the Chinese community. 309 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:08.070 And then I very obviously stand out and 310 00:20:08.230 --> 00:20:11.670 don't really fit in in the non racialized 311 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:15.590 communities. So I think especially with 312 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:19.910 Asianized communities across the world, 313 00:20:21.030 --> 00:20:24.070 we are often put into this 314 00:20:24.150 --> 00:20:27.950 monolithic group. But Asia has what, 315 00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:31.750 like 52, 56 different countries, right? 316 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:35.510 And then different nuances impact. Vietnamese, 317 00:20:35.590 --> 00:20:38.790 Korean, Japanese, Chinese cultures, 318 00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:42.310 Cambodian, Laos. Like there's so many. And if you 319 00:20:42.630 --> 00:20:46.550 peel all the layers back, Joe, of what you and I are 320 00:20:46.550 --> 00:20:50.110 talking about, it all comes down to 321 00:20:50.590 --> 00:20:54.430 just treating each and every single person 322 00:20:54.590 --> 00:20:58.110 you know, you meet, you see as the 323 00:20:58.110 --> 00:21:01.830 individuals that they are and respecting 324 00:21:01.830 --> 00:21:05.470 them as the individuals they are, 325 00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:09.390 right? Because at the end of the day, if you take a look at 326 00:21:09.870 --> 00:21:13.390 racism, sexism, homophobia, 327 00:21:13.930 --> 00:21:16.490 transphobia, all of these discriminatory 328 00:21:17.610 --> 00:21:21.450 phenomenons and behaviours, it's about 329 00:21:21.610 --> 00:21:25.090 not respecting, right? Being 330 00:21:25.090 --> 00:21:28.170 compassionate, being kind to these people. So 331 00:21:28.410 --> 00:21:32.050 oftentimes I tell organisations, before we put a 332 00:21:32.050 --> 00:21:35.970 diversity lens on anything, let's remove it and 333 00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:39.700 just ground ourselves in respect, kindness, human 334 00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:43.380 compassion and start there. Like that's a great starting point, 335 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:46.900 right? But surely, surely everybody 336 00:21:47.540 --> 00:21:51.180 thinks they're kind, everyone thinks they're, they're a great person. Everyone 337 00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:55.020 thinks they're, they care, everyone thinks that they, they're, you know, everyone thinks they're 338 00:21:55.020 --> 00:21:58.820 right to be honest. And that's, that's half the battle. But nobody gets up in 339 00:21:58.820 --> 00:22:02.780 the morning thinking, I'm going to be a really nasty, horrible person today and cause 340 00:22:02.780 --> 00:22:06.560 pain to everybody else. They're just doing what they believe and their own 341 00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:10.520 echo chamber, their own culture, their own lived experience, that's, that's part 342 00:22:10.520 --> 00:22:14.400 of the challenge, is trying to encourage people to see 343 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.000 a, a greater, a greater truth or a greater perspective 344 00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:21.840 without telling them they're wrong. That's the hard bit, isn't it? It is. And 345 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.640 realistically and, and that's, that's human nature, right? 346 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.600 Like that's part of our limbic brain. Like that 347 00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:34.400 part of our human makeup of 348 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:38.440 needing to belong and needing to find people who are exactly 349 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.440 like us, think like us, look like us, come from the same backgrounds as we 350 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.440 do, socioeconomic, educational, professional, whatever. 351 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.680 That is so deeply rooted in our 352 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.840 human makeup that it's hard to really 353 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.680 navigate around that. But I think that if you are 354 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:01.440 inherently curious, if you come from a place 355 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:05.140 of being open minded and seeing the world 356 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.140 around you, that it isn't the same world as it was five years ago, ten 357 00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:12.900 years ago, right? Not even like two years ago. Look how much has changed in 358 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:16.700 the world in the last two years. That if we 359 00:23:16.700 --> 00:23:19.900 do that and allow for different 360 00:23:20.060 --> 00:23:23.900 perspectives and different people in. I think 361 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:27.700 that's a really hard but very necessary thing to 362 00:23:27.700 --> 00:23:31.600 do. Because the only reason why we were talking about this in the green 363 00:23:31.600 --> 00:23:35.480 room, even you and I have had different perspectives is 364 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:39.240 by being open, being inherently curious and open to 365 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.920 hearing different perspectives. I've learned so much 366 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.240 from all people from all different walks of life. 367 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.400 I've learned the most actually from my 368 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:55.000 Caucasian male counterparts 369 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:59.620 that have taught me everyone is 370 00:23:59.620 --> 00:24:02.700 just navigating systems that never 371 00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:06.660 included women, racialized 372 00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:10.420 communities, trans communities. And we're still 373 00:24:10.420 --> 00:24:14.180 navigating in those systems, we haven't evolved them. So 374 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:18.060 actually I think it was Nelson Mandela who, you know, 375 00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:21.870 when, during apartheid said there's 376 00:24:21.870 --> 00:24:25.030 no victims and villains when it comes to 377 00:24:25.670 --> 00:24:29.350 racism in Africa. There is only victims 378 00:24:29.350 --> 00:24:33.190 on both sides navigating a broken system. And if we treat it 379 00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:37.030 that way, then people who think differently than us or 380 00:24:37.830 --> 00:24:41.710 are not one of us are not villains. Right? Just because 381 00:24:41.710 --> 00:24:45.190 they have a different perspective, they're not the bad guy, we're not 382 00:24:45.350 --> 00:24:49.150 listening to them to try and change their mind because we're right and they're 383 00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:53.090 wrong. We actually have to meet people where they and 384 00:24:53.250 --> 00:24:57.010 just recognise that we have all been navigating a system 385 00:24:57.170 --> 00:25:01.050 that did not include most of the world as 386 00:25:01.050 --> 00:25:05.050 it is today. And I think that would be a great starting point. I 387 00:25:05.050 --> 00:25:09.049 completely agree. I'm in the same echo chamber as you. I get it 388 00:25:09.049 --> 00:25:12.650 completely. I value that perspective on life. But where I always 389 00:25:12.650 --> 00:25:16.330 struggle is as a EDI professional myself, is trying 390 00:25:16.330 --> 00:25:20.160 to convert the unconvertible and 391 00:25:21.120 --> 00:25:24.960 who are entrenched in their zero sum view. You win, 392 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.960 I lose. A lot of these DEI initiatives have got a bad name. 393 00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:31.960 Especially, you know, look at what's going on in the US and certain parts of 394 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.200 the UK and other things where people are 395 00:25:35.840 --> 00:25:39.760 the incumbent privilege are starting to feel themselves being 396 00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:43.360 marginalised because they're not getting the advantages and they see DEI as 397 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:47.890 taking away their maleness, their whiteness and 398 00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:51.530 their power base and they're having eroded and saying, hang on, I don't like this 399 00:25:51.530 --> 00:25:55.330 feeling of being uncomfortable and losing stuff. It's everybody 400 00:25:55.330 --> 00:25:58.730 else that's trying to take things from me. And that's a real human fear, isn't 401 00:25:58.730 --> 00:26:02.450