Jenny Chen: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 183 with the total
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity over assimilation. And I have the
Joanne Lockwood: absolute honour and privilege to welcome Jenny Chen. Jenny is
Joanne Lockwood: a former top ranking finance professional turned DEI consultant
Joanne Lockwood: who is on a mission to dismantle performative inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: and rebuild cultures where
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity thrives. That's easy for you to say. And when I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Jenny to describe her superpower, she said that is her relentless
Joanne Lockwood: curiosity that drives transformative conversations
Joanne Lockwood: and systemic change. Hello Jenny, welcome to the show.
Jenny Chen: Thanks so much Jo for having me. Absolute pleasure. We've
Joanne Lockwood: had a good natural ready in the green room and we were in danger of
Joanne Lockwood: losing all the material on the cutting room floor so I had to quickly get
Joanne Lockwood: on here and press record. So you were telling me you're from Canada,
Joanne Lockwood: is that right? Yep, I'm from Ottawa, Canada.
Jenny Chen: Welcome to we are the capital of our great nation
Jenny Chen: and we actually just finished with our
Jenny Chen: Canadian federal elections a couple weeks ago. And
Jenny Chen: so we are all a little politics doubt right now. Mark
Joanne Lockwood: Carney, I mean the UK know Mark Carney well as our former bank of
Joanne Lockwood: England governor. I guess secretly we were all probably egging him
Joanne Lockwood: on as a honorary Brit for a few
Joanne Lockwood: years. You know what, it's so, it's so crazy right now because you
Jenny Chen: know, as you know in the world there's so much political
Jenny Chen: unrest, right. Even in countries. I have never, I'm, I'm
Jenny Chen: almost 40 and Joe, I have never really paid
Jenny Chen: attention to nor really cared about Canadian
Jenny Chen: politics before because even our biggest problems used to be
Jenny Chen: just cute, cute compared to other global
Jenny Chen: issues happening. And this was the first time where our
Jenny Chen: normally conservative family were really challenged with
Jenny Chen: the decision on who we wanted representing us. And this
Jenny Chen: time we actually voted with Our moral values versus the political
Jenny Chen: party that it was. So, yes, we actually voted for Mark Carney. We egged him
Jenny Chen: on too, because
Jenny Chen: we, you know, Prime Minister is what, in the
Jenny Chen: UK too? They last what, four, eight years maybe. But the
Jenny Chen: values that we want shaping our country today
Jenny Chen: lasts for generations. Right. So, yeah,
Jenny Chen: interesting times. I've seen that in the UK as well, where there's
Joanne Lockwood: this real blurred line between the traditional colours, the reds, the
Joanne Lockwood: blues, the oranges, the greens, and people are starting to
Joanne Lockwood: work out that you can't get everything from one person or you can't get everything
Joanne Lockwood: from anybody. You got to try and pick and choose and sometimes you end up
Joanne Lockwood: picking and choosing the least worst option. One party says has something you
Joanne Lockwood: really, really strongly disagree with, but they do. Lots you do agree
Joanne Lockwood: with. You've got to be careful here that you don't end up absorbing stuff that
Joanne Lockwood: you don't want to get what you do want. And you've got to try and
Joanne Lockwood: balance that in your own sort of psyche as to which is best for
Joanne Lockwood: the long term future of the country. And sometimes we're allowing people in
Joanne Lockwood: with really, really dangerous views because they do
Joanne Lockwood: some things we like. Yeah. And we
Jenny Chen: really have to step back, you know, and
Jenny Chen: instead of thinking, what's in it for me? What is this party
Jenny Chen: or what is this leader going to do for me personally, you
Jenny Chen: know, and, and take a look at the bigger picture, the next generation,
Jenny Chen: how this is going to impact. Right. Like we talked about in
Jenny Chen: the Green Room, we talked about the climate in the US right
Jenny Chen: now and how polarising it has
Jenny Chen: become and how openly people with
Jenny Chen: discriminatory behaviours. Right. Racism, sexism,
Jenny Chen: homophobia, xenophobia. The current
Jenny Chen: administration has just given them more confidence and a
Jenny Chen: voice to share a lot of those hateful rhetorics that
Jenny Chen: I was hoping were a thing of our past. But we know better,
Jenny Chen: you and I, Joe, that they're still very, very much a pervasive
Jenny Chen: issue broadly. And so, you know, those. It comes back to values,
Jenny Chen: right, that are shaping the next generation, not just our
Jenny Chen: generation. Yeah, so true, so true. And I think, if anything, I think what the
Joanne Lockwood: US is doing is giving a world
Joanne Lockwood: model that you can either embrace or you can reject. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think if nothing else, that administration is. Everyone else
Joanne Lockwood: is waking up and going, if we're not careful, we will slide into that
Joanne Lockwood: ourselves. If we don't want that, now's our chance to do something about it rather
Joanne Lockwood: than sliding in. And then once it's happened, it's too late. People are seeing that
Joanne Lockwood: this can happen. This slide into authoritarianism is real.
Jenny Chen: We experienced that this year up
Jenny Chen: in the Canadian elections. Our Conservative Party leader
Jenny Chen: here shared. They actually call him Maple Trump. And
Jenny Chen: he shared a lot of the viewpoints in example, saying,
Jenny Chen: you know, racism doesn't exist unless we talk about racism, so
Jenny Chen: everybody just stop talking about racism and it'll go away. And it's like,
Jenny Chen: that doesn't really make sense. Right. And as a. As a racialized
Jenny Chen: woman, as a Chinese Canadian immigrant, I came here in
Jenny Chen: 1989 as a political refugee during the
Jenny Chen: Tiananmen Square massacre. I can tell you that
Jenny Chen: it's very much deeply rooted in our systems.
Jenny Chen: And so saying we shouldn't talk about it and it'll go away
Jenny Chen: is exactly why systemic gender barriers, racial
Jenny Chen: barriers, all kinds of discrimination continue to happen because we treat it
Jenny Chen: like it doesn't exist. Look at indigenous peoples in
Jenny Chen: our country right across the world. So, yeah, very, very interesting.
Jenny Chen: It's funny that you were just introducing my
Jenny Chen: episode as authenticity, and here we are spreading, spending
Jenny Chen: this much time talking about politics, but I think it's more about. These are
Jenny Chen: the topics that impact each and every single
Jenny Chen: person right. In society. And why don't we talk
Jenny Chen: about these things? So thanks for giving me a space and a
Jenny Chen: platform to share some of my perspectives. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And you just dropped the Tiananmen Square bombshell on me there. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: now thinking, wow, I can't let that pass without listening to
Joanne Lockwood: some of your experience about that time in that. In the country.
Joanne Lockwood: I saw it, I mean, 1989. I was how old? I was probably
Joanne Lockwood: 1920 about then. Yeah, about that age. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: thinking I didn't really understand world politics. So we got the iconic
Joanne Lockwood: image of the lone person confronting a tank
Joanne Lockwood: and holding up the tanks in Tiananmen Square. That's kind of the iconic world image
Joanne Lockwood: of Tiananmen Square. You were there living it as a. As a Chinese
Joanne Lockwood: citizen. So what was going on in the country at that time, if you don't
Joanne Lockwood: mind sharing. Yeah. So I was very young,
Jenny Chen: I would say, so my experience is limited.
Jenny Chen: I was in Changsha, Hunan. That's where I was born. It's actually
Jenny Chen: Chairman Mao's hometown. So when you go back home,
Jenny Chen: when I go back to visit, people see Chairman
Jenny Chen: Mao as this icon, this hero. Right.
Jenny Chen: And I recall, because I was in Canada at the time the
Jenny Chen: Tiananmen Square massacre happened. My father was here
Jenny Chen: on a scholarship pursuing his PhD in
Jenny Chen: computer science. And my mom and I came. I was three years old at the
Jenny Chen: time, Joe. We came to Visit him in April 1989 and
Jenny Chen: June is when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened. And
Jenny Chen: the previous Prime Minister Trudeau, the senior
Jenny Chen: Prime Minister Trudeau, granted all Chinese nationals
Jenny Chen: landed immigrant or permanent resident status right here
Jenny Chen: in Canada for asylum. And we were not
Jenny Chen: able to go back home. My mom and dad left everything
Jenny Chen: they knew, everyone they knew behind because we had to take
Jenny Chen: up residence in Canada. And I am, and again, I was so young.
Jenny Chen: I really am grateful
Jenny Chen: for the opportunity to be here. But sometimes it
Jenny Chen: gives you that perspective that others might
Jenny Chen: not have if you're born in a country, right. And we talk about
Jenny Chen: we still have refugees seeking asylum all over the
Jenny Chen: world because they're fleeing war, genocide,
Jenny Chen: anything, Right. And it allows me, I think,
Jenny Chen: to have a much more compassionate
Jenny Chen: and also pragmatic lens when it comes to things
Jenny Chen: like immigration. So back to
Jenny Chen: politics. You know, we were saying that
Jenny Chen: the values that shape our country. Well, if a
Jenny Chen: leader or a party are against immigration
Jenny Chen: or have a very negative rhetoric to immigration,
Jenny Chen: I say that that deeply impacts the
Jenny Chen: values that I have grown up with. As a first generation
Jenny Chen: immigrant, I've got. No lived experience of
Joanne Lockwood: that kind of scenario. Effectively went on holiday and never went
Joanne Lockwood: home, really. Yeah. Never went home. Your home, your
Joanne Lockwood: possessions, your television or your clothes or your toys
Joanne Lockwood: as a young person, your friends, your school suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: gone, you know, you now have a new life. And I would imagine
Joanne Lockwood: your command of English was almost non existent at
Joanne Lockwood: that age when you were just learning to speak anyway. But yeah, you had to
Joanne Lockwood: learn a new language and you had to parents had to learn a new language
Joanne Lockwood: and you had to become part of the Canadian culture. That's a
Joanne Lockwood: huge, huge undertaking for any family. You know how I learned
Jenny Chen: English, Joe? We shared a basement apartment in
Jenny Chen: Kitchener Waterloo. It's a very university town here, very small
Jenny Chen: town. I watched Disney movies, so Alice in Wonderland,
Jenny Chen: Little Mermaid, Cinderella were my first three Disney movies. And
Jenny Chen: I watched, you'll laugh at this, a lot
Jenny Chen: of old 80s 90s action
Jenny Chen: movies with Sylvester Stallone, Arnold
Jenny Chen: Schwarzenegger. And. Because in China
Jenny Chen: they're so popular, right, that they have actually
Jenny Chen: phonetically, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can't translate that into Mandarin,
Jenny Chen: but they phonetically have created names for all these
Jenny Chen: movie stars. So that's all I knew when I was growing up. But yeah, it
Jenny Chen: was wild. And realistically, a lot of the
Jenny Chen: nuances from China we carried over
Jenny Chen: with us, right? So in communist China, this is all
Jenny Chen: I'm told from my parents, because I don't remember, obviously
Jenny Chen: I was too young. But in communist China, right, Like we
Jenny Chen: Lived on rations. So monthly the government
Jenny Chen: would hand out rations of like this much cooking
Jenny Chen: oil, this much rice. And I don't think anybody really
Jenny Chen: understands during that time what that was like
Jenny Chen: for a, for a growing family with two parents
Jenny Chen: and a child. And then even my
Jenny Chen: grandmother to the day she passed away in 20,
Jenny Chen: 2017, she used to be a devout
Jenny Chen: Buddhist and she prayed in her closet. And
Jenny Chen: growing up watching that, I never understood that. Right. Because here
Jenny Chen: there's all, there's freedom of religion. Nobody is
Jenny Chen: hopefully ostracised in communities for their religion. But
Jenny Chen: in China, if you have religion during that time, during the Cultural
Jenny Chen: Revolution, you'd go to jail or worse.
Jenny Chen: Right. And so for 30 years she lived in Canada.
Jenny Chen: She prayed in her little tiny, not even a walk in
Jenny Chen: closet, just a corner of her closet. So, yeah, these things
Jenny Chen: really shaped your experiences growing up, right?
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow, that's. What a story. And yeah, thank you so
Joanne Lockwood: much for sharing that. It's. Yeah, it's incredible to hear
Joanne Lockwood: this truth. So you were in this finance
Joanne Lockwood: environment, a male dominated industry, and you realised
Joanne Lockwood: that it wasn't as easy for you as it was for others. And was that
Joanne Lockwood: because of being a woman, Was that because being of Chinese descent or was
Joanne Lockwood: it a combination of those factors? Yeah, so that's a
Jenny Chen: great question. I found that
Jenny Chen: I didn't know I was experiencing
Jenny Chen: systemic barriers or that I was different until
Jenny Chen: someone told me I was different. Right. Until someone told
Jenny Chen: me I was going through or experiencing
Jenny Chen: sexism or racism. Because by
Jenny Chen: virtue of assimilating at a very young
Jenny Chen: age, learning the language, trying to fit in,
Jenny Chen: I think that as a survival mechanism, I
Jenny Chen: never wanted to stand out. So spending also six
Jenny Chen: years in Plano, Texas when my dad worked in
Jenny Chen: telecommunications. Right. You just don't want to stand out. And
Jenny Chen: so in my career, I was often
Jenny Chen: the only woman or the only
Jenny Chen: person of colour. And then realistically, when I started
Jenny Chen: raising these experiences to our leaders,
Jenny Chen: I feel like it wasn't being challenged
Jenny Chen: enough. Right. Some of these systems weren't being challenged enough. So I felt
Jenny Chen: compelled to just, hey, say hey, take a step back
Jenny Chen: and look at this experience. And this is DEI as
Jenny Chen: an element of a person, right? This is sexism. And
Jenny Chen: the emotions that I felt
Jenny Chen: being the recipient of these actions so that
Jenny Chen: we could hopefully help dismantle them in our
Jenny Chen: organisation. And then I was appointed
Jenny Chen: a DEI leader for our global wealth management
Jenny Chen: firm because like many women, and especially
Jenny Chen: women of colour, that title is often given to
Jenny Chen: us based on our lived experience and not because
Jenny Chen: it's something I ever pursued Right. I was a salesperson through
Jenny Chen: and through and I had no HR experience. But
Jenny Chen: realistically, Joe, what I realised during my time
Jenny Chen: leading DEI efforts for a few
Jenny Chen: years that, you know, I'm a business
Jenny Chen: strategist through and through, and I realised we could not,
Jenny Chen: as a global organisation, accelerate our
Jenny Chen: growth or drive innovation if we
Jenny Chen: were stuck in the same way. Our,
Jenny Chen: our organisation was built in a time where women didn't have
Jenny Chen: the right to work, right. Weren't included in our workforce, didn't
Jenny Chen: even have the right to vote. And we
Jenny Chen: continued operating and leading inclusion
Jenny Chen: and belonging in a separate silo in
Jenny Chen: an HR initiative off the side of the desk of a lot of
Jenny Chen: our leaders and decision makers. So
Jenny Chen: my journey, as I said, into DEI wasn't in the
Jenny Chen: classroom, but really began through these
Jenny Chen: lived experiences. Again, I eventually
Jenny Chen: was able to integrate our, what we
Jenny Chen: really wanted as dei, as a value,
Jenny Chen: into our core operations, into our business as
Jenny Chen: usual. So instead of just featuring our black
Jenny Chen: Asianized women wealth management
Jenny Chen: professionals on International Women's Day, Black History
Jenny Chen: Month, you know, Asian American Pacific Islander
Jenny Chen: Heritage Month, integrating that and highlighting that
Jenny Chen: in our regular programming, like it's not, it's not rocket
Jenny Chen: science. Right. And so I took a step out of corporate
Jenny Chen: finance and I actually started my own management consulting firm called
Jenny Chen: Catalyst Consulting, where we help organisations do
Jenny Chen: exactly this, right, integrating
Jenny Chen: inclusive business practises, equitable business practises,
Jenny Chen: inclusive leadership into their core operations
Jenny Chen: because that's the only way that we will be able to drive long lasting
Jenny Chen: sustainable change. Yeah, I, I, I think I realised that
Joanne Lockwood: had an epiphany probably about 10 years ago when I did a transition that in
Joanne Lockwood: my most of my life I'd never appreciated what it
Joanne Lockwood: liked, what it was like to not have advantage, what it was like to
Joanne Lockwood: not be considered, to be not the default, to be not in the majority.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's only when you step over that line into an environment where you
Joanne Lockwood: are suddenly the minority, the marginalised, the voiceless, the
Joanne Lockwood: different, that you realise how cold, how bleak it can be
Joanne Lockwood: over there. I would imagine when you're with your own
Joanne Lockwood: community, within Chinese community, you're in the majority
Joanne Lockwood: and it's very easy to feel that sense of belonging, but if you step out
Joanne Lockwood: into that other zone, you're not. How can we get
Joanne Lockwood: people who are in the majority and we can use the term
Joanne Lockwood: privileged, if you like, to start being aware
Joanne Lockwood: of that difference of experience. Yeah. So you raise an
Jenny Chen: interesting point because this is something that I navigated,
Jenny Chen: but also my kids are navigating right now where,
Jenny Chen: yes, you would think that if I'm with a community
Jenny Chen: of other Asianized people that
Jenny Chen: I would have a stronger sense of belonging. But
Jenny Chen: remember I came here when I was three years old, very quickly
Jenny Chen: assimilated, as I mentioned, as a survival mechanism.
Jenny Chen: So growing up, like we didn't even, we weren't even speaking English
Jenny Chen: like Chinese at home. We weren't. We. I lost my language so long
Jenny Chen: ago to learn English and then French because
Jenny Chen: we're in Canada and those were the things we
Jenny Chen: needed to do in order to, like, my parents wanted to fit
Jenny Chen: in, to be successful here. And so
Jenny Chen: growing up I wasn't Chinese enough
Jenny Chen: or considered Chinese enough for the Chinese community.
Jenny Chen: And then I very obviously stand out and
Jenny Chen: don't really fit in in the non racialized
Jenny Chen: communities. So I think especially with
Jenny Chen: Asianized communities across the world,
Jenny Chen: we are often put into this
Jenny Chen: monolithic group. But Asia has what,
Jenny Chen: like 52, 56 different countries, right?
Jenny Chen: And then different nuances impact. Vietnamese,
Jenny Chen: Korean, Japanese, Chinese cultures,
Jenny Chen: Cambodian, Laos. Like there's so many. And if you
Jenny Chen: peel all the layers back, Joe, of what you and I are
Jenny Chen: talking about, it all comes down to
Jenny Chen: just treating each and every single person
Jenny Chen: you know, you meet, you see as the
Jenny Chen: individuals that they are and respecting
Jenny Chen: them as the individuals they are,
Jenny Chen: right? Because at the end of the day, if you take a look at
Jenny Chen: racism, sexism, homophobia,
Jenny Chen: transphobia, all of these discriminatory
Jenny Chen: phenomenons and behaviours, it's about
Jenny Chen: not respecting, right? Being
Jenny Chen: compassionate, being kind to these people. So
Jenny Chen: oftentimes I tell organisations, before we put a
Jenny Chen: diversity lens on anything, let's remove it and
Jenny Chen: just ground ourselves in respect, kindness, human
Jenny Chen: compassion and start there. Like that's a great starting point,
Jenny Chen: right? But surely, surely everybody
Joanne Lockwood: thinks they're kind, everyone thinks they're, they're a great person. Everyone
Joanne Lockwood: thinks they're, they care, everyone thinks that they, they're, you know, everyone thinks they're
Joanne Lockwood: right to be honest. And that's, that's half the battle. But nobody gets up in
Joanne Lockwood: the morning thinking, I'm going to be a really nasty, horrible person today and cause
Joanne Lockwood: pain to everybody else. They're just doing what they believe and their own
Joanne Lockwood: echo chamber, their own culture, their own lived experience, that's, that's part
Joanne Lockwood: of the challenge, is trying to encourage people to see
Joanne Lockwood: a, a greater, a greater truth or a greater perspective
Joanne Lockwood: without telling them they're wrong. That's the hard bit, isn't it? It is. And
Jenny Chen: realistically and, and that's, that's human nature, right?
Jenny Chen: Like that's part of our limbic brain. Like that
Jenny Chen: part of our human makeup of
Jenny Chen: needing to belong and needing to find people who are exactly
Jenny Chen: like us, think like us, look like us, come from the same backgrounds as we
Jenny Chen: do, socioeconomic, educational, professional, whatever.
Jenny Chen: That is so deeply rooted in our
Jenny Chen: human makeup that it's hard to really
Jenny Chen: navigate around that. But I think that if you are
Jenny Chen: inherently curious, if you come from a place
Jenny Chen: of being open minded and seeing the world
Jenny Chen: around you, that it isn't the same world as it was five years ago, ten
Jenny Chen: years ago, right? Not even like two years ago. Look how much has changed in
Jenny Chen: the world in the last two years. That if we
Jenny Chen: do that and allow for different
Jenny Chen: perspectives and different people in. I think
Jenny Chen: that's a really hard but very necessary thing to
Jenny Chen: do. Because the only reason why we were talking about this in the green
Jenny Chen: room, even you and I have had different perspectives is
Jenny Chen: by being open, being inherently curious and open to
Jenny Chen: hearing different perspectives. I've learned so much
Jenny Chen: from all people from all different walks of life.
Jenny Chen: I've learned the most actually from my
Jenny Chen: Caucasian male counterparts
Jenny Chen: that have taught me everyone is
Jenny Chen: just navigating systems that never
Jenny Chen: included women, racialized
Jenny Chen: communities, trans communities. And we're still
Jenny Chen: navigating in those systems, we haven't evolved them. So
Jenny Chen: actually I think it was Nelson Mandela who, you know,
Jenny Chen: when, during apartheid said there's
Jenny Chen: no victims and villains when it comes to
Jenny Chen: racism in Africa. There is only victims
Jenny Chen: on both sides navigating a broken system. And if we treat it
Jenny Chen: that way, then people who think differently than us or
Jenny Chen: are not one of us are not villains. Right? Just because
Jenny Chen: they have a different perspective, they're not the bad guy, we're not
Jenny Chen: listening to them to try and change their mind because we're right and they're
Jenny Chen: wrong. We actually have to meet people where they and
Jenny Chen: just recognise that we have all been navigating a system
Jenny Chen: that did not include most of the world as
Jenny Chen: it is today. And I think that would be a great starting point. I
Joanne Lockwood: completely agree. I'm in the same echo chamber as you. I get it
Joanne Lockwood: completely. I value that perspective on life. But where I always
Joanne Lockwood: struggle is as a EDI professional myself, is trying
Joanne Lockwood: to convert the unconvertible and
Joanne Lockwood: who are entrenched in their zero sum view. You win,
Joanne Lockwood: I lose. A lot of these DEI initiatives have got a bad name.
Joanne Lockwood: Especially, you know, look at what's going on in the US and certain parts of
Joanne Lockwood: the UK and other things where people are
Joanne Lockwood: the incumbent privilege are starting to feel themselves being
Joanne Lockwood: marginalised because they're not getting the advantages and they see DEI as
Joanne Lockwood: taking away their maleness, their whiteness and
Joanne Lockwood: their power base and they're having eroded and saying, hang on, I don't like this
Joanne Lockwood: feeling of being uncomfortable and losing stuff. It's everybody
Joanne Lockwood: else that's trying to take things from me. And that's a real human fear, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It's an innate limbic system you talked about. It's our fight,
Joanne Lockwood: fight, freeze mechanism kicking in, going, I've got to hang on to what I've
Joanne Lockwood: got. And it's really hard to get people to lower those defences
Joanne Lockwood: and have truly honest, open conversation to address those fears, isn't it?
Jenny Chen: I think we have, in good intention,
Jenny Chen: tried to overcorrect for historical
Jenny Chen: imbalances across the globe, right? Because
Jenny Chen: again, you know, it's about time that we
Jenny Chen: take a look around and see what's been missing, right, and
Jenny Chen: what's holding people back. I think that
Jenny Chen: in good intention we have created
Jenny Chen: this environment of zero sum game,
Jenny Chen: meaning exactly as you said, by
Jenny Chen: bringing other people in, we are
Jenny Chen: leaving or pushing other people out. That's what we.
Jenny Chen: That's the environment we've created. But we really need to take a step back
Jenny Chen: and recognise that the reason why these. And I, again, I.
Jenny Chen: Every time I say dei I put it in air quotes because every time we
Jenny Chen: created these initiatives, committees, task forces
Jenny Chen: in organisations, in society and politics and government,
Jenny Chen: it was to bring, level out the playing
Jenny Chen: field and give equal opportunity
Jenny Chen: what we didn't stress enough. And again, I'll go
Jenny Chen: back to Nelson Mandela because I think he did an exceptional job in this. Like
Jenny Chen: apartheid was such an incredibly horrific
Jenny Chen: thing that happened in that country. It could have ended in bloodshed,
Jenny Chen: but it didn't, right? Because he said, I am not
Jenny Chen: for the oppression of black people, but I also am not
Jenny Chen: here for the oppression of white people. He always had to be
Jenny Chen: explicitly clear that he was not against
Jenny Chen: either side. And we have not done that. And
Jenny Chen: I'll give you a very specific example, Joe, because my
Jenny Chen: background is in corporate finance, right? Investment
Jenny Chen: advisors, wealth managers, portfolio managers, what have you.
Jenny Chen: Key sales roles are still, across the board,
Jenny Chen: 15% women, 15% women. Today
Jenny Chen: that number has remained stagnant. We cannot, across the
Jenny Chen: industry, globally, seem to fix this problem
Jenny Chen: because we continue saying things like, women
Jenny Chen: make better advisors than men. Women can
Jenny Chen: emotionally connect with men better, right? And deal
Jenny Chen: with women clients better. That's not true.
Jenny Chen: Right? That's not true. That's. I don't know where that rhetoric came from,
Jenny Chen: but all that told the 85% men
Jenny Chen: in our industry was that women are better than this, than
Jenny Chen: you, and we're coming from. For your jobs.
Jenny Chen: That's not true. What we should have actually said was
Jenny Chen: women make up 54% of the global population.
Jenny Chen: They make up 50% now of our workforce, our labour
Jenny Chen: force, of our talent. And so how can we
Jenny Chen: as an industry be confident that we have the best
Jenny Chen: talent out there to take care of clients and
Jenny Chen: their wealth if we only have 15% of the
Jenny Chen: 54% of the talent that's out there? Right? And
Jenny Chen: so this, again, if you remove the diversity lens
Jenny Chen: and just say this is a gender equity problem because
Jenny Chen: we need more women, and now we've created this, this narrative
Jenny Chen: that we women are taking opportunities away from men,
Jenny Chen: we should actually say, for the continuity of this
Jenny Chen: entire industry, we, we do not have enough
Jenny Chen: wealth professionals to take care of
Jenny Chen: the next generation when our current workforce
Jenny Chen: retires. And that's the reality as it is today, Joe. Across
Jenny Chen: finance, we actually don't have enough wealth
Jenny Chen: professionals, we don't have enough doctors, engineers,
Jenny Chen: right across sectors to sustain
Jenny Chen: the continuity of a lot of these sectors. So, picking up
Joanne Lockwood: on what you're saying there about some of the root cause of where we are
Joanne Lockwood: today is that within our community
Joanne Lockwood: groups, however we want to describe it, our affinity groups,
Joanne Lockwood: we've almost overcompensated in order to give ourselves that
Joanne Lockwood: sense of belonging and that sense of purpose, that sense of fighting back
Joanne Lockwood: against oppression, we've overcomplicated, compensated by saying,
Joanne Lockwood: we're better, we can take over this. And so we're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to shoot too far, whereas what we should be trying to do is shoot for
Joanne Lockwood: equity, not overpowering.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that kind of what you're. The hint of what you're saying there? Yeah, a
Jenny Chen: hundred percent. If you look at why diversity councils were created in the
Jenny Chen: first place, right? Employee resource groups across
Jenny Chen: organisations, across industries, they were created because
Jenny Chen: racialized and also. Right, like different genders, different
Jenny Chen: sexual orientations, everyone who didn't fit the
Jenny Chen: legacy mould of our workforce.
Jenny Chen: We're trying to create a space
Jenny Chen: where our voices could be heard and hopefully,
Jenny Chen: through sharing our experiences,
Jenny Chen: impact the change that is so needed in these
Jenny Chen: infrastructures. But again, what we created
Jenny Chen: was through personalising the hurt of
Jenny Chen: centuries, right, of different communities.
Jenny Chen: We forgot that what we were trying to
Jenny Chen: aim for was to inspire change.
Jenny Chen: And you cannot inspire change through
Jenny Chen: adversarial rhetorics, through
Jenny Chen: divisiveness, through polarisation. That's what
Jenny Chen: the world is like right now. What we really need to
Jenny Chen: do is find a way to bridge a lot of these
Jenny Chen: gaps by creating stronger
Jenny Chen: partnerships Collaboration across the board,
Jenny Chen: realising that, you know, if we don't,
Jenny Chen: it's actually like, what. What's our world gonna look
Jenny Chen: like in 5 years, 10 years? This next Generation,
Jenny Chen: Right? Yeah. Yeah. How can we. Not sure these are the right words, but how
Joanne Lockwood: can we undo the damage that we've created by overshooting
Joanne Lockwood: and trying to get it back to this level playing field where we're
Joanne Lockwood: all trying to find this common purpose where to create a world where we can
Joanne Lockwood: all thrive. We're looking for a happy life. We're looking for somewhere
Joanne Lockwood: where I can feel safe in my community, I can bring my family up, I
Joanne Lockwood: have a roof over my head, I have food on the table. I only want
Joanne Lockwood: what is fair and reasonable and sustainable. It's really hard to see a vision where
Joanne Lockwood: we can find that nirvana. The Star Trek world, if you like, where
Joanne Lockwood: everybody sort of gets along with each other except for the Klingons and the Ferengi.
Jenny Chen: I love. I love that reference. I think that, you know, again, we
Jenny Chen: just have to take a real step back
Jenny Chen: and look at it from a different
Jenny Chen: perspective. I could say that, you know,
Jenny Chen: it really comes down to, as I mentioned before, if you strip away
Jenny Chen: the diversity lens off of a lot of these issues that we're trying
Jenny Chen: to solve for, right, it's really about
Jenny Chen: having a systems failure, a true systems
Jenny Chen: failure, and recognising that as the starting point, right? This isn't just
Jenny Chen: a diversity issue. It's not about immigration,
Jenny Chen: gender, race, sexual orientation. It's. It's
Jenny Chen: really about, you know, the system that we are in
Jenny Chen: right now, across the world, society.
Jenny Chen: It's not broken. It was actually built this way, right?
Jenny Chen: And so the only way forward is to rebuild
Jenny Chen: it together, based on what the world
Jenny Chen: looks like today. And what I've realised is,
Jenny Chen: you know, if you strip away all of these
Jenny Chen: issues, these. These. These very important issues,
Jenny Chen: but we've named the problem as
Jenny Chen: like a diversity problem. It comes down to a lack
Jenny Chen: of respect, a lack of kindness, a lack of human compassion
Jenny Chen: and understanding. And so whether we talk about inclusion
Jenny Chen: in workspaces, healthcare, politics or in our
Jenny Chen: communities, we don't need to ask how do we support
Jenny Chen: this group or that group, Right? That's. Those are the solutions we've come up
Jenny Chen: with. We really need to start with how do we
Jenny Chen: treat people like human beings and everyone is
Jenny Chen: different? Recognising that each and every single person is different. My experience
Jenny Chen: as a woman of colour in finance will
Jenny Chen: not be the same as another woman of colour, not even
Jenny Chen: the same as another Chinese Canadian immigrant. Right. And
Jenny Chen: that's the point. Systems aren't designed to account
Jenny Chen: for complexity, but real leadership and real
Jenny Chen: change in each and every single one of us requires that we do.
Jenny Chen: And to your point, at the beginning of our conversation,
Jenny Chen: you know, hearing from different perspectives, inviting in
Jenny Chen: different perspectives, because when we challenge each other and when
Jenny Chen: we offer feedback or invite these different
Jenny Chen: viewpoints, it's not because we're trying to tear each other down.
Jenny Chen: It's actually because we care. Some of the angriest people out
Jenny Chen: there right now, some of the loudest voices,
Jenny Chen: are angry because they actually care. Like, if you. If
Jenny Chen: you take down all of the
Jenny Chen: hateful rhetoric that's out there. Right. They care.
Jenny Chen: And real leadership isn't about avoiding these
Jenny Chen: uncomfortable discussions, but be willing to
Jenny Chen: sit in it with curiosity and not come back. And I think that
Jenny Chen: that's something that is truly, truly missing. Because
Jenny Chen: empathy builds momentum, and then
Jenny Chen: momentum changes systems. Right.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think you picked up some points that I really resonate with. It's around
Joanne Lockwood: these perspectives. It's around that understanding of where
Joanne Lockwood: we're at, each of us, because we all have different starting points, different lived experience.
Joanne Lockwood: And you start the conversation by talking about Canadian politics and world
Joanne Lockwood: politics. But we don't all vote for the same party. We don't vote for the
Joanne Lockwood: same people, do we? Yet when I look at it and think, well, it's really
Joanne Lockwood: obvious, of course you should vote for this person, because that's everything I. But we
Joanne Lockwood: don't. So it's really trying to understand why somebody has a different viewer
Joanne Lockwood: perspective and an opinion on something. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: We get caught up at the bigger picture of the outcome.
Joanne Lockwood: We never sit there and actually drill down as to why someone. Why does
Joanne Lockwood: someone feel disenfranchised? Why does someone feel hurt? Why does someone feel lonely?
Joanne Lockwood: And as you said, as a racialized Chinese person,
Joanne Lockwood: you have a different perspective on inclusion than somebody who is
Joanne Lockwood: maybe Canadian French or Canadian Inuit
Joanne Lockwood: or Indigenous. Right. I think.
Jenny Chen: So back to the politics. I.
Jenny Chen: This was the first time, as I said, in my life where I was deeply
Jenny Chen: impacted by a lot of the things happening, the
Jenny Chen: conversations happening, the rhetoric that was taking place here in
Jenny Chen: Canada, because I always pictured us as a
Jenny Chen: very inclusive society. And maybe that was me being naive or
Jenny Chen: in my own little echo chamber. But I'm not surrounded by
Jenny Chen: people who think that immigrants are the
Jenny Chen: downfall of this country or that racism doesn't
Jenny Chen: exist. Right. And one post actually made
Jenny Chen: me emotional. I cried when I saw that in the US There was a
Jenny Chen: congressman in West Virginia who proposed a ban
Jenny Chen: on International Chinese students from entering the United
Jenny Chen: States. Joe, this was like two months ago, right?
Jenny Chen: Right before our, our Canadian federal
Jenny Chen: election. And how many people agreed with that?
Jenny Chen: I had just attended at our
Jenny Chen: Senate two years ago, 2023, the
Jenny Chen: centenary for the Chinese Exclusion
Jenny Chen: Act. So 1923, Canada put
Jenny Chen: forward a law that banned Chinese exclusive
Jenny Chen: people from entering Canada, even though we built the
Jenny Chen: railway, even though we were here working the gold mines. But
Jenny Chen: because they were afraid that Chinese people were going to take over Canada
Jenny Chen: right through immigration, we actually put a ban forward
Jenny Chen: that prevented families from being together until the
Jenny Chen: ban was lifted in 1947. That was the worst
Jenny Chen: period and not found in any
Jenny Chen: history books. I didn't learn that until I attended this event. And I
Jenny Chen: grew up in Canada, not a single history book mentions that. And
Jenny Chen: one thing I realised through this election, how many
Jenny Chen: friends of mine voted with a
Jenny Chen: party for a party who was,
Jenny Chen: you know, against higher taxes, Right.
Jenny Chen: Better for businesses. Right. But again, standing
Jenny Chen: for these values that myself, as a racialized Chinese
Jenny Chen: Canadian didn't stand for. And I saw this quote, Joe, and
Jenny Chen: I'm going to say it here because I think it's really important. I don't know
Jenny Chen: who wrote it, but it says, may you never know the fear of having your
Jenny Chen: human rights challenged every time there's an election.
Jenny Chen: And may you never know the pain of watching loved ones vote against your
Jenny Chen: right to exist fully, equally and authentically.
Jenny Chen: Because when and why do we
Jenny Chen: politicise caring? When and
Jenny Chen: why do we continue to politicise basic human
Jenny Chen: rights, basic respect, basic understanding of
Jenny Chen: people? Why is it that if you care about
Jenny Chen: people of all different backgrounds, you are labelled
Jenny Chen: this way? Politically, we are a very conservative family.
Jenny Chen: I have always grown up with that because we come from Communist China.
Jenny Chen: We came here as first generation immigrants, you know, pulled
Jenny Chen: up our bootstraps, never asked for social assistance, worked from the
Jenny Chen: ground up and built a legacy and a life for ourselves in this country.
Jenny Chen: And so by virtue of that, and not
Jenny Chen: trusting governments, because we come from Communist China,
Jenny Chen: we have always, as a family, voted conservative. And this is
Jenny Chen: the very first time we didn't, because again, the leader of our party
Jenny Chen: did not represent the values we wanted to see shaping the next
Jenny Chen: generation. And these are going to be the next
Jenny Chen: generation of leaders, of government, of
Jenny Chen: society. And they're watching every single thing we are
Jenny Chen: doing right now and all the decisions we are making. And they are
Jenny Chen: asking, how did you treat our parents?
Jenny Chen: How did you treat our family? How did you treat my
Jenny Chen: lineage and my legacy? Because those
Jenny Chen: will impact and shape the values that they have
Jenny Chen: later on. Right. Yeah. As you, as you're talking there, I'm,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm almost a bit choked in that quote you gave. That that quote would not
Joanne Lockwood: have resonated with me. Ten years ago, I was voting for parties
Joanne Lockwood: for my pocket, for my wealth, for my economy,
Joanne Lockwood: for my business. What I'm now hyper aware is
Joanne Lockwood: that I'm now voting for my safety, for my right to
Joanne Lockwood: exist, my right, my freedoms. And that is something
Joanne Lockwood: in my old life as a perceived straight white male,
Joanne Lockwood: I never had to consider that side of it. But now you're right.
Joanne Lockwood: I am now hyper, hyper, hyper aware
Joanne Lockwood: of my right to exist. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: scared, I mean, I really am scared about
Joanne Lockwood: some of the parties and some of the political rhetoric in the UK and also
Joanne Lockwood: that's coming from the US it's actually threatening my
Joanne Lockwood: right to even walk the street. And yeah, we saw
Joanne Lockwood: this in. Yeah. And I don't like drawing parallels to 1930s
Joanne Lockwood: Germany, but we, this is the state we're looking at. We're looking
Joanne Lockwood: at countries around the world that have oppressive regimes that
Joanne Lockwood: are denying people's freedoms. And I'm almost unbelievably thinking
Joanne Lockwood: that this could happen in my town, in my village, in my house
Joanne Lockwood: right now. And it's absolutely scary.
Joanne Lockwood: It really is. And yeah, that quote you gave was, is so
Joanne Lockwood: brutally real. Yeah. And like I said,
Jenny Chen: we are my family. We are in the highest tax
Jenny Chen: bracket here. And I knew that voting a certain way would mean that we're
Jenny Chen: paying 54 cents on the dollar of every dollar we earn to
Jenny Chen: the government, and we're not here for that. But at the end of the
Jenny Chen: day, our kids. My stepson
Jenny Chen: is a schoolteacher. My daughters
Jenny Chen: are both engineers and scientists. Right.
Jenny Chen: Our extended family are all nurses.
Jenny Chen: And so the certain, certain political
Jenny Chen: platforms, certain political parties will
Jenny Chen: impact with their policies, impact our
Jenny Chen: family. Our kids can't buy homes right now in Canada.
Jenny Chen: Right. And across the world, like, housing prices are so high,
Jenny Chen: the healthcare systems all over the globe are, are
Jenny Chen: broken. Even, even in Canada, where countries look
Jenny Chen: up to our health care system, our public health care system here
Jenny Chen: is broken. We actually have private healthcare in Canada. We choose to,
Jenny Chen: but we also have the option a lot of families don't.
Jenny Chen: And so again, looking beyond our myopic needs,
Jenny Chen: our individual needs, and seeing the world
Jenny Chen: around us and who is in society today
Jenny Chen: and making sure that things like just
Jenny Chen: safety rights that we fought
Jenny Chen: so long for aren't stripped away. Because progress, as
Jenny Chen: we know, as we've seen, is so incredibly
Jenny Chen: fragile. But I can tell you. 30% of our
Jenny Chen: country voted for a party whose leader
Jenny Chen: spews the same hateful rhetoric that the US
Jenny Chen: has allowed into their government right
Jenny Chen: now. And it's scary. Well, not an insignificant
Joanne Lockwood: portion of the UK population is voting for
Joanne Lockwood: parties which have allegiances to the
Joanne Lockwood: Republican government in the US and these are kindred
Joanne Lockwood: spirits, all financed through the same sort of money channels.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, it is. And we see the rise of this over Europe, in France
Joanne Lockwood: and other countries, and Germany is even seeing a pushback for the first time since
Joanne Lockwood: the war that they're seeing a rise in right wing politics in Germany.
Joanne Lockwood: And this is spreading around the world. No longer should
Joanne Lockwood: we be worried about communism stealing our freedoms. We should be worried about the rise
Joanne Lockwood: of fascism stealing our freedoms and squeezing out the middle ground. Right,
Jenny Chen: exactly. You know, in, in Canada, there was a, there was
Jenny Chen: in Toronto, Canada, so four hours away from here, but the biggest, one of
Jenny Chen: the biggest metropolises in Canada, there was a
Jenny Chen: protest yesterday where a group of masked
Jenny Chen: men were protesting for mass deportation
Jenny Chen: and anti DEI here
Jenny Chen: in Toronto. Right. 2025, Joe. I never thought that that would
Jenny Chen: happen. And they're actually chanting, you know, Shiloh
Jenny Chen: Hendricks did nothing wrong. Shiloh Hendricks in
Jenny Chen: Massachusetts was a white woman who has
Jenny Chen: a viral video of her spewing racial
Jenny Chen: slurs at a black autistic child in a
Jenny Chen: park. Right. She's calling him the
Jenny Chen: N word, she's berating him. And when she was
Jenny Chen: questioned on why she did it, she said, well, if that's what he's going to
Jenny Chen: act like. And there's a group now protesting, saying
Jenny Chen: she's done nothing Wrong, she's raised
Jenny Chen: $700,000 in support from
Jenny Chen: people in our own communities. Right. That
Jenny Chen: are saying that she was within her right to do this to a 5 year
Jenny Chen: old autistic black boy in a park. And
Jenny Chen: so if you think around the world, because I know that there's
Jenny Chen: listeners from all around the world hearing this
Jenny Chen: podcast, that if you think that these
Jenny Chen: things don't happen in our very own backyards,
Jenny Chen: it's because we weren't looking. But some of us experience
Jenny Chen: this each and every single day. It's so
Joanne Lockwood: easy to see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear, and
Joanne Lockwood: not open the door, not lift the carpet, not look under
Joanne Lockwood: because our communities and our echo chamber isn't talking about it. It doesn't mean it's
Joanne Lockwood: not happening. Yeah. And I said this during our
Jenny Chen: earlier discussion, like we don't need any more DEI
Jenny Chen: statements or DEI initiatives, like we don't need any more
Jenny Chen: labels or more buckets or any more separate systems that we create
Jenny Chen: for different people. You know, we don't need more
Jenny Chen: committees. And if, when we talk about inclusion, we really
Jenny Chen: need to stop assigning the work of equity
Jenny Chen: to the very people most impacted by
Jenny Chen: exclusion. That's actually why I created my consulting
Jenny Chen: firm, because I'm helping organisations take off their own
Jenny Chen: blinder and reevaluate the
Jenny Chen: foundation in which their company is built on. And
Jenny Chen: I'm really tired of companies thinking that just
Jenny Chen: because they've put together an employee resource group
Jenny Chen: or a diversity council, that means they're driving change. Absolutely
Jenny Chen: not. Right, again, back to our earlier point. These were
Jenny Chen: created not as innovation tools, but they started
Jenny Chen: because underrepresented people had no seat at decision making tables.
Jenny Chen: So we created these spaces for ourselves, for survival, for
Jenny Chen: solidarity, for, for a sense of community. And
Jenny Chen: it's easy for organisations to use these groups as a way to
Jenny Chen: say, look, we're doing something right without actually
Jenny Chen: changing the systems that created the need for these groups in the first
Jenny Chen: place. And so I don't think that's inclusion. I actually think those
Jenny Chen: groups are a way of containing the voices.
Jenny Chen: And I think it's time we call it what it is. Right. And we,
Jenny Chen: we just need redesign and we need clarity and we need
Jenny Chen: workplaces that work for everyone. But more than
Jenny Chen: anything, we need courage, because courage
Jenny Chen: is needed to drive the change that we need to challenge
Jenny Chen: some of these really hurtful,
Jenny Chen: exclusive behaviours that have remained a
Jenny Chen: pervasive, perpetual issue in society today. I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: very powerful. You know, just to paraphrase what you said, you know, equity is
Joanne Lockwood: championed by those who lack it, I guess, is what you're trying to say there.
Joanne Lockwood: And the problem, I go back to the point I made earlier as well, is
Joanne Lockwood: how do we get the people who have the power, the privilege,
Joanne Lockwood: the tools to enable, you know, sexism is a male
Joanne Lockwood: problem, racism is a white problem. You know, how do we get the people who
Joanne Lockwood: propagate these systems of oppression to recognise
Joanne Lockwood: that they have to step up and create the equity? I can't create
Joanne Lockwood: equity from underneath. It has to be allowed. But they're so busy
Joanne Lockwood: fighting their own equity battle, their own needs, their own threats, their own
Joanne Lockwood: analysis, so we're all pulling in different directions. The challenge is trying to get
Joanne Lockwood: everybody around the table working out what the zero sum game
Joanne Lockwood: isn't and all going, actually, if we just stop all this
Joanne Lockwood: bickering and just carrying on, we all be great. But
Joanne Lockwood: it's almost like an impossible ask because we're so Divided. We're so
Joanne Lockwood: focused on ourselves. We're so focused on our rights and our needs and our
Joanne Lockwood: environment, we can't stop and look at somebody else. I don't spend a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: my time thinking about the issues of racism or ableism in society
Joanne Lockwood: because that's not my crusade. But it is others. I'm not a bad person.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just not looking in that direction. Think that. Well, actually, this is.
Jenny Chen: This is exactly why I also started my podcast. I'm not
Jenny Chen: 183 episodes in Joe. I'm only five. But
Jenny Chen: it's called Tune up youp Warrior. Because I
Jenny Chen: had been championing systemic change by
Jenny Chen: sharing not only my own lived experiences,
Jenny Chen: but experiences of everyone who had the courage to share it
Jenny Chen: with me during my time leading
Jenny Chen: diversity, equity, inclusion efforts. And
Jenny Chen: then by sharing these experiences, I was actually told
Jenny Chen: that I needed to tone down my warrior. That these
Jenny Chen: personal stories I had shared about overcoming
Jenny Chen: adversity, about standing up for what's right, weren't
Jenny Chen: aligned with the image of a leader they wanted
Jenny Chen: to project. And at first I didn't even know what that means. Like, what does
Jenny Chen: tone down your warrior meaning? And I actually replaced
Jenny Chen: ally. What we thought of an ally, what we considered an ally
Jenny Chen: before, right? I'm tired of the word ally. Because you can be an
Jenny Chen: ally, know something is wrong and do
Jenny Chen: absolutely nothing about it. What I
Jenny Chen: always think is what we need more of. We need more warriors, right?
Jenny Chen: Ones that will challenge status quo, will
Jenny Chen: stand up for the people who don't have a voice
Jenny Chen: or are the only ones at a table. How many times did we have
Jenny Chen: to stand up for ourselves in a very uncomfortable situation?
Jenny Chen: Right? Though that moment was a
Jenny Chen: turning point when I was told to tone down my warrior because
Jenny Chen: I realised that I wasn't meant to lower that voice,
Jenny Chen: I was meant to amplify it. And
Jenny Chen: I think that we just need to raise
Jenny Chen: awareness about these experiences
Jenny Chen: so that people can understand what is still
Jenny Chen: happening. Because if you look at what happened with what I
Jenny Chen: mentioned, Chinese history in Canada,
Jenny Chen: what we've learned through the discovery of,
Jenny Chen: you know, what has taken place for
Jenny Chen: Indigenous communities all around the world, black
Jenny Chen: communities all around the world, is that we
Jenny Chen: don't put it in history books, we don't talk
Jenny Chen: about it. And because we don't talk about it, we treat it like
Jenny Chen: it's something of our past or that it no longer
Jenny Chen: exists. And so I think having the courage to
Jenny Chen: share these experiences, but also not your own
Jenny Chen: experiences, sharing the experiences of others at
Jenny Chen: tables where there are still so few of us there
Jenny Chen: will help inspire the change that
Jenny Chen: we desperately need. Because again, to
Jenny Chen: your earlier point, we don't even, we don't even look for it because we
Jenny Chen: don't know it's happening. But once we learn about it,
Jenny Chen: whether it's through people that are in our own circles,
Jenny Chen: our networks, our workplaces, our neighbours that go
Jenny Chen: through it, only then can we realise these
Jenny Chen: are still very much challenges that we have
Jenny Chen: to overcome here as a society. I think we'll leave it there, if that's okay.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's a fascinating conversation. I think your insight and perspective have been
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely mind opening for me and I hope if you're listening to
Joanne Lockwood: this, that you'll also be challenged on your own perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: on what Jenny's been saying. So Jenny, how can people get hold of you if
Joanne Lockwood: they want to connect with you and find out more about you? Yeah,
Jenny Chen: absolutely. So you can find me through
Jenny Chen: catalias.com that's C-A-T-A-L-A-I
Jenny Chen: S.com and there you'll find all the
Jenny Chen: different ways to get a hold of me. You'll have a link to my podcast
Jenny Chen: that's available everywhere called Tune up your Warrior and follow me on
Jenny Chen: Instagram Catalias Consulting because there's a
Jenny Chen: if you really enjoyed or what I said resonated with
Jenny Chen: you, I try and share these little nuggets
Jenny Chen: often as they come up pop up in my brain because I think that
Jenny Chen: we really need to have more conversations
Jenny Chen: like this. Not left completely agree with that. You're not going to have any
Joanne Lockwood: resistance. We're one and truly in the same echo chamber here. So yeah, I'm an
Joanne Lockwood: open door to your thoughts. So Jenny, thank you
Joanne Lockwood: so much. Thank you, Joe.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community
Joanne Lockwood: driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.
Joanne Lockwood: Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all
Joanne Lockwood: ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more information. Enriching narratives that challenge, inspire
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.