WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share stories that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:19.620 And today is episode 187, the title 19 00:01:19.860 --> 00:01:23.820 Healing at the Heart. And I have the absolute honour and privilege 20 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:27.780 to welcome Jared Carroll. Jared is a personal development coach 21 00:01:27.860 --> 00:01:31.220 working at the intersection of social change and healing. 22 00:01:32.020 --> 00:01:35.700 He helps people understand who they are so they can show up more consciously, 23 00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:39.660 courageously and sustainably in the world. When I asked 24 00:01:39.660 --> 00:01:42.940 Jared to describe his superpower, he said it is bringing 25 00:01:42.940 --> 00:01:46.500 equanimity to difficult conversations so people can stay present, 26 00:01:47.260 --> 00:01:51.260 honest and open instead of shutting down or fighting back. 27 00:01:51.580 --> 00:01:55.540 Hello, Jared. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you for having 28 00:01:55.540 --> 00:01:59.380 me. Great to be here. Absolute pleasure. And we were. We've been 29 00:01:59.380 --> 00:02:03.100 yakking away for probably 25 minutes and we had to press record quickly, otherwise everything 30 00:02:03.100 --> 00:02:06.780 we talk about is going to end up on the floor and be lost 31 00:02:06.860 --> 00:02:10.820 for time. But we were. We talked about the fact that you live 32 00:02:10.820 --> 00:02:14.630 in Oakland, California. I do, yeah. That gave us something in 33 00:02:14.630 --> 00:02:17.750 common because I was in Oakland a year ago. A year and a half ago. 34 00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:22.070 That's right. Well, you said you were at HR west emceeing the 35 00:02:22.070 --> 00:02:25.550 conference. I spoke at HR West. I think it was 36 00:02:25.550 --> 00:02:29.270 2019. 2018 19, but. Yeah, right. Downtown 37 00:02:29.270 --> 00:02:33.190 Oakland, 10 minutes, same place. The Marriott Convention Centre, was it? 38 00:02:33.270 --> 00:02:36.470 Yeah, they have a big, big building there down like. I think it's. 39 00:02:38.230 --> 00:02:42.050 Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool. 40 00:02:42.050 --> 00:02:45.810 And. And back at me. You're a football fan, so you've. 41 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:49.770 Sorry, UK soccer fan. So you follow the English Premiership. 42 00:02:49.770 --> 00:02:53.090 So you know about Portsmouth and where I come from. Because you follow the team. 43 00:02:53.250 --> 00:02:57.130 I do. I. His. I. Well. And maybe we'll get into this because 44 00:02:57.130 --> 00:03:00.770 it's part of my journey, but I was a college athlete. Not soccer, but 45 00:03:00.850 --> 00:03:04.770 lacrosse. And I was a big Sports guy in my youth, in 46 00:03:04.770 --> 00:03:08.650 college and young, Young adult. And then I decided I didn't want to be that 47 00:03:08.650 --> 00:03:12.480 guy anymore. But I kind of had one. One little thing I couldn't let 48 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:15.760 go from my youth, which was. Which was soccer. So I decided, well, if I'm 49 00:03:15.760 --> 00:03:19.760 going to follow sport, I'm just going to pick one, one country. And I chose 50 00:03:19.760 --> 00:03:23.640 England. And so. So I know the. I 51 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:27.440 know the British geography largely through where the soccer teams 52 00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:30.600 are. That's a. That's a really, really good way of doing it. And I know 53 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:34.320 many Brits who follow American football 54 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.040 or basketball or baseball, and they know all of the names of the 55 00:03:38.040 --> 00:03:41.880 clubs and where they are in their world. So, yeah, 56 00:03:41.880 --> 00:03:45.760 I guess if you're going to learn geography, tie it to something and 57 00:03:45.760 --> 00:03:49.640 why not sport? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, happy to be 58 00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:53.400 here and talk about whatever makes sense for us to talk 59 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.280 about. Well, let's start with the word that I was you 60 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:01.280 put into your bio and show notes as equanimity. I 61 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.280 struggled there. I struggled to pronounce it the first time because I'd never used it 62 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.130 before. And so I even had to feed it to copilot to look 63 00:04:09.130 --> 00:04:12.770 up what it meant. But you said that word has sat with you for a 64 00:04:12.770 --> 00:04:16.290 couple of decades, so why did you bring that into the 65 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:20.130 conversation? I bring it into all conversations about 66 00:04:20.210 --> 00:04:23.330 anything trivial or serious or anything in between. 67 00:04:24.290 --> 00:04:27.650 The way I define it, actually, I don't really have a concise, 68 00:04:27.730 --> 00:04:31.610 tidy definition like copilot I gave you, but I see 69 00:04:31.610 --> 00:04:35.380 it as a way for us, for me, for you, for anyone 70 00:04:35.380 --> 00:04:39.260 to. The hardships, the suffering, 71 00:04:39.260 --> 00:04:43.220 the challenges, the situations that we face, just as, you 72 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:46.740 know, being human with. With composure, with poise, with 73 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:50.420 calmness, without. Without freaking out, without getting too 74 00:04:50.900 --> 00:04:54.380 down or perpetuating. Perpetuating a 75 00:04:54.380 --> 00:04:58.180 storyline that may or may not often is not true. 76 00:04:59.050 --> 00:05:02.170 And then conversely, when you know the quote, unquote, good things happen. 77 00:05:02.810 --> 00:05:06.570 Not getting too elated, not getting too high, not getting too cocky. And so 78 00:05:06.570 --> 00:05:10.410 just it's this kind of ongoing self and meta 79 00:05:10.410 --> 00:05:14.330 awareness of what's going on and having the confidence 80 00:05:14.410 --> 00:05:18.370 to know I can handle it, even if I don't like it, even 81 00:05:18.370 --> 00:05:20.970 if it's hard, even if I don't know what to do or what to say, 82 00:05:21.210 --> 00:05:24.970 I can handle it. So as we both know, doing this type of 83 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:28.970 work, those are important skills to have, and a lot of people 84 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:32.890 do have them, but a lot of people don't. And then in your superpower, you 85 00:05:32.890 --> 00:05:36.610 said it's about avoiding shutting down or 86 00:05:36.610 --> 00:05:40.170 fighting back. And when you are oppressed, 87 00:05:40.330 --> 00:05:44.049 marginalised, at the brunt of somebody else's 88 00:05:44.049 --> 00:05:47.810 bullying or discrimination, those are often the two choices, aren't they? 89 00:05:47.810 --> 00:05:51.570 Shut down, run away, tail between your legs, or come out with 90 00:05:51.570 --> 00:05:55.280 teeth showing and growling and is trying 91 00:05:55.280 --> 00:05:59.200 to sit somewhere in the middle there where you can engage in the conversation. 92 00:05:59.200 --> 00:06:03.080 And that's a really tough thing to do when you're under that psychological pressure. It 93 00:06:03.080 --> 00:06:06.640 is. And I'm a, you know, I'm a cis straight white 94 00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:11.000 man. So I have, I'm, I'm at the top of the privilege food 95 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.960 chain. So for, I think for a long time, I mean, I've been 96 00:06:14.960 --> 00:06:18.920 doing this work for 25 years. My father was a, was a gay man. He 97 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:22.810 died of AIDS in 2000. And that's when I decided 98 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:26.490 to change really to do the work. And so when I started doing the work, 99 00:06:26.570 --> 00:06:30.530 it was the typical kind of social justice warrior, like, 100 00:06:30.530 --> 00:06:34.490 okay, time to wake up, Jared. You've been, you know, ignoring all this 101 00:06:34.490 --> 00:06:38.410 stuff for, you know, your whole life and now it's time to not. 102 00:06:38.970 --> 00:06:42.890 So I jumped into that work. I was teaching at the time, that was my 103 00:06:42.890 --> 00:06:46.810 profession. And I was, I was snarky, I was acerbic, I was 104 00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:50.650 dogmatic, I was, you know, things were new to me, new 105 00:06:50.890 --> 00:06:54.310 theories, new philosophies, new understandings of history 106 00:06:55.190 --> 00:06:59.190 that I hadn't really, I mean, I had had some exposure to 107 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:02.950 some of this through my dad, but I wasn't really listening that closely or, you 108 00:07:02.950 --> 00:07:06.950 know, didn't, it didn't affect me who I thought. So I'd say for 109 00:07:06.950 --> 00:07:10.950 the first, you know, eight to 10 years, I was that, you 110 00:07:10.950 --> 00:07:14.950 know, newly woke white guy who was telling everyone 111 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:19.110 how unwoke they were until I decided 112 00:07:19.110 --> 00:07:23.070 that that wasn't really effective or sustainable, which I'm sure 113 00:07:23.150 --> 00:07:27.070 we'll jump into many, many stories of how and why and how 114 00:07:27.070 --> 00:07:30.790 I, how I shifted. But that's, that's a good place to start with where I 115 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:34.670 was back then. Yeah, I think it is the temptation 116 00:07:36.030 --> 00:07:39.110 when you're trying to educate people, you want to, you want to educate them by 117 00:07:39.110 --> 00:07:42.910 being right and they want to be uneducated by being 118 00:07:42.910 --> 00:07:46.670 right themselves and not needing to be educated. It's trying to find that balance 119 00:07:46.670 --> 00:07:50.430 of how to educate without telling, isn't it? How to show don't tell. 120 00:07:51.260 --> 00:07:53.900 Yeah, it's. Which is interesting you bring that up because I was a teacher for 121 00:07:53.900 --> 00:07:57.660 12 years and for most of that time I taught middle school humanities, 122 00:07:58.460 --> 00:08:02.180 you know, language arts, writing history, I taught a social 123 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:06.140 justice curriculum. So everything was through the lens of power and privilege. And whether it 124 00:08:06.140 --> 00:08:09.980 was literature or history or current events or classroom dynamics, it was all through 125 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:13.020 these lenses. And that was. I was fortunate and 126 00:08:13.580 --> 00:08:17.530 intentional about finding a school that allowed me to, you know, not 127 00:08:17.530 --> 00:08:20.850 only it allowed me, but that was what the school did and that they expected 128 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:24.650 and supported us in doing. But to your point, yeah, we 129 00:08:24.650 --> 00:08:28.050 see that the world is unjust, is 130 00:08:28.050 --> 00:08:31.930 inequitable, is unfair historically and contemporarily on a 131 00:08:31.930 --> 00:08:35.890 micro and macro, on a local and global level. And we 132 00:08:35.890 --> 00:08:39.730 want change yesterday. And so we get upset 133 00:08:39.890 --> 00:08:43.370 when people don't see that as clearly or as 134 00:08:43.370 --> 00:08:46.600 quickly or as urgently as we do. 135 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.840 And so that causes us to. To be more upset 136 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:55.400 because if. If this person or this community or this, you know, this 137 00:08:55.400 --> 00:08:59.400 government only saw. And so 138 00:08:59.400 --> 00:09:03.360 then it becomes charged. And I'm not saying there isn't a place 139 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.280 for charged or for protest or for other things, but which again, we. I'm sure 140 00:09:07.280 --> 00:09:11.160 we'll dive into more details, but I think we lose track of 141 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:15.200 what we're actually trying to do and we don't realise that we're actually 142 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:18.780 not being effect our. Call it what you want to call it, fervour, 143 00:09:18.780 --> 00:09:22.740 righteousness. And I would argue that that has. Has 144 00:09:22.740 --> 00:09:26.660 contributed to the challenges that 145 00:09:26.660 --> 00:09:30.340 we in this industry, dei, hr, social justice, 146 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:34.340 whatever, however expansive or narrow, we want to define that as 147 00:09:34.340 --> 00:09:37.940 some of the challenges that we. That we. I think I, as I've matured, you 148 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:41.500 know, I'm in my. I'm in my early 60s. How did that happen? You know, 149 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:45.380 I think over your. The arc of your life, you go through 150 00:09:45.380 --> 00:09:48.620 different phases, don't you? And I think I. I've become to learn 151 00:09:49.260 --> 00:09:53.140 that even though I'm more settled in my ways, more relaxed, more 152 00:09:53.140 --> 00:09:56.620 calm, more pragmatic, more logical, always 153 00:09:57.020 --> 00:10:00.740 I'm able to shift my thinking from my amygdala into my prefrontal cortex. 154 00:10:00.740 --> 00:10:04.620 Easier. Today. I don't get triggered. I'm able to feed my 155 00:10:04.700 --> 00:10:08.500 human emotions differently. But I also recognise that 156 00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:12.470 in order to enact change, you need different people 157 00:10:13.030 --> 00:10:16.950 with different levels of passion, if you like, for whatever way. 158 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:20.470 You do need the people who are the angry social, 159 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:24.830 not necessarily the mob, but the angry social justice warriors who are 160 00:10:24.830 --> 00:10:28.830 fighting for the cause, who are whipping up people who are in that 161 00:10:28.830 --> 00:10:32.630 same space as they are. But then you've got the people on the other side 162 00:10:32.630 --> 00:10:35.590 who are looking for political change, which is slow, methodical, 163 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.880 nuanced, persuasive, lobbying, all those kind of things. 164 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.680 You've got people in the middle who are trying to do a bit of both 165 00:10:43.680 --> 00:10:47.640 and try and do it. I've come to realise that as I swing 166 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:51.560 towards the more nuanced, logical approach, there's 167 00:10:51.560 --> 00:10:55.520 still a place for the people who want to wear the T shirt, 168 00:10:56.640 --> 00:10:59.920 march, those sort of things. Well, I think 169 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.720 there's. What I've learned is there three, three 170 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:08.200 perspectives to take in this work. There's the why, 171 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.560 there's the what and there's the how. So the why. I 172 00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:16.120 would imagine or, or hope or suspect that every person doing 173 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.840 this work, social justice, dei, change, work, right, Has. Has a personal 174 00:11:20.920 --> 00:11:24.920 why. They may or may not have, have be clear 175 00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:28.160 about it or really know it. Maybe they haven't done that work, but there's something 176 00:11:28.160 --> 00:11:31.530 that's driving them to do this work, right, which is good. You need that. Or 177 00:11:31.530 --> 00:11:34.930 else, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? Right? Then there's the 178 00:11:35.090 --> 00:11:38.490 what, which I think is what. What you were kind of getting at. Like, what 179 00:11:38.490 --> 00:11:42.330 is your role? So I'm a coach, I'm a facilitator. You know, some. 180 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:46.210 Some people might be, you know, a community organiser, some people might be 181 00:11:46.210 --> 00:11:49.450 head of, you know, DEI at A. @ a big company or, you know, whatever. 182 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:53.450 They're. Maybe you're a speaker. So there's. There's the what. And then I was 183 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:57.210 reminded, as you were talking of, I don't have it super handy. Maybe we can, 184 00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:59.880 after the show, we can put a link to it so people have it. But 185 00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:02.960 there's a woman named Deepa Iyer and she has this. 186 00:12:04.400 --> 00:12:08.360 What does she call it? The social change ecosystem. And 187 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:12.000 she talks about the different roles that are needed 188 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.760 and they. Not all of us are and can be 189 00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:20.320 frontline protesters, rebel rabble rousers. There 190 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.000 needs. There need to be caretakers, educators, coaches, 191 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.070 storyteller. I mean, and she has this whole kind of, you know, graphic 192 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:31.830 that illustrates it very, very well. And that gets to the. 193 00:12:31.910 --> 00:12:35.790 For me, the why, the what, the how, I 194 00:12:35.790 --> 00:12:39.750 think is under underappreciated 195 00:12:40.550 --> 00:12:44.430 and under emphasised because, especially if 196 00:12:44.430 --> 00:12:47.190 you see someone like me who, as I said, you know, a little bit ago, 197 00:12:47.190 --> 00:12:51.110 very comes from a privileged position doing this work, 198 00:12:51.510 --> 00:12:53.940 it's easy to dismiss my 199 00:12:55.140 --> 00:12:59.140 angle into this work as well. Of course you're privileged, 200 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:03.100 so of course you can do that. But what about me, who has, you 201 00:13:03.100 --> 00:13:06.820 know, X, Y, Z marginalised identities, 202 00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:11.700 which is fair and taking this approach 203 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:15.620 is open to anyone if they have the wisdom and 204 00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:19.620 maturity to see it. And so that's what I 205 00:13:19.780 --> 00:13:23.540 have come to emphasise and focus on in My work 206 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:27.580 and I can share some personal experiences that have led 207 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:31.180 directly to that. But it's the how. 208 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:35.980 How are we going about the work that is going to be effective and 209 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:39.860 sustainable and build community, build connection. 210 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:43.820 It's so easy to dismiss people who don't get it, who don't want to 211 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:47.780 get it, who are hurtful, harmful, but the ways 212 00:13:47.780 --> 00:13:51.710 we've been going about it aren't working and they're not going to bring 213 00:13:51.710 --> 00:13:55.670 about the change that we say we. Want. As you're talking, I'm thinking about 214 00:13:55.670 --> 00:13:59.430 some famous people in history that have 215 00:13:59.590 --> 00:14:03.590 probably themselves transitioned through. There's different ways 216 00:14:03.590 --> 00:14:06.950 of enacting change. You know, Nelson Mandela, for example, 217 00:14:07.430 --> 00:14:11.430 he was a freedom fighter terrorist. Prison probably calmed him down, 218 00:14:11.430 --> 00:14:15.310 but he came out a state statesman of the nation, the 219 00:14:15.310 --> 00:14:18.490 grandfather of the nation who then enacted change 220 00:14:19.290 --> 00:14:22.650 through political discourse, dialogue, calmness and reason. 221 00:14:23.050 --> 00:14:26.970 Lech was instrumental in the fall down 222 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:30.730 of the Cold War, the Berlin war coming down in the 223 00:14:30.730 --> 00:14:34.530 80s, the Solidarity Movement. He was a freedom fighter. And we look 224 00:14:34.530 --> 00:14:37.850 at Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, these people started off by, 225 00:14:38.330 --> 00:14:41.850 in the protest, freedom fighter space and then 226 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:45.450 transitioned into the reasonable politician or the logical 227 00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:49.400 response. I think. Yeah, I think that's probably a natural arc 228 00:14:49.400 --> 00:14:52.840 of evolution. I. Think. Well, it is and it can be, 229 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:56.920 and I hate to use the word should, but I would argue that it would 230 00:14:56.920 --> 00:15:00.840 be beneficial on an individual and collective level if it was that 231 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:04.840 arc. And, you know, I don't think 232 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:08.920 someone has to, you know, be in prison for 27 years to, 233 00:15:08.920 --> 00:15:12.880 you know, to come to that. Not really a conclusion, but to come to that 234 00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:16.810 awareness. Right. So how do you, how do all of us, you know, 235 00:15:16.810 --> 00:15:20.810 the people on the street doing this work, how do we come to those, that 236 00:15:20.810 --> 00:15:24.650 awareness ourselves without, you know, those, those 237 00:15:24.650 --> 00:15:27.850 big dire, you know, historically 238 00:15:28.570 --> 00:15:32.530 relevant and known, you know, events in our life, because 239 00:15:32.530 --> 00:15:35.770 we don't all have those, right? We have, you know, we have our own things. 240 00:15:35.770 --> 00:15:39.730 We have our own local things, our own personal things, our own, you know, but 241 00:15:39.730 --> 00:15:42.990 they're just as important. They're just as. They're just as relevant. 242 00:15:44.030 --> 00:15:47.830 And so how do we individually decide, you know, what? I'm not 243 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:51.470 giving up on this work, but I'm going to do it differently 244 00:15:52.270 --> 00:15:55.710 so that it's more sustainable and more effective. 245 00:15:56.030 --> 00:15:59.710 And it's building what I want to see, not just taking 246 00:15:59.790 --> 00:16:03.630 down what I don't want to see. And there's all kinds, you know, 247 00:16:03.950 --> 00:16:07.950 there's so many people, you know, contemporary people who are doing 248 00:16:07.950 --> 00:16:11.910 this work. And I've, I mean, I can, I'M sure we'll get into some of 249 00:16:11.910 --> 00:16:15.390 them. But one who, who immediately comes to mind is actually, he lives in Oakland 250 00:16:15.390 --> 00:16:18.390 as well, Dr. Sean Ginright. And he wrote a book, 251 00:16:19.670 --> 00:16:23.630 I think it's fairly recent, a couple years ago, maybe 20, 22 or so, 252 00:16:23.630 --> 00:16:27.190 called the four pivots. He 253 00:16:27.750 --> 00:16:30.870 gist of the book is switching from trauma 254 00:16:30.950 --> 00:16:34.560 informed work to healing centred 255 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.240 or healing centred, healing engaged. And so his first of the four 256 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.960 pivots is from lens to mirror. Right. So the lens is 257 00:16:43.520 --> 00:16:47.480 the world is inequitable, unjust, unfair, we 258 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.840 need to change it. Here's what we're going to do. So it's not like that 259 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:54.760 goes away or that's wrong, but the mirror is okay, how do 260 00:16:54.760 --> 00:16:58.160 I need to change? What am I doing or not doing 261 00:16:59.030 --> 00:17:02.790 that's contributing to the chaos, to the, 262 00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:09.150 you know, to the status quo? And so he talks and 263 00:17:09.150 --> 00:17:12.350 I follow his, you know, his newsletter and he send once or twice a week, 264 00:17:12.350 --> 00:17:16.230 he'll share a little video and, and he's a, you know, he's a black man. 265 00:17:16.950 --> 00:17:20.830 So that's just one small example of this isn't just a privileged, 266 00:17:20.830 --> 00:17:24.670 you know, white guy thing. In fact, most of the people who I've 267 00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:28.390 been influenced by have been folks of 268 00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:32.310 colour, queer folks of colour, trans folks, people who 269 00:17:32.310 --> 00:17:36.030 are in, in multiple ways, have experienced and still are 270 00:17:36.030 --> 00:17:39.870 experiencing marginalisation, injustice, et cetera. 271 00:17:40.190 --> 00:17:43.390 And so I, I take. What's the word I want to look for? I guess 272 00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:46.630 I don't want to say like, oh, I'm glad, I'm glad they're experiencing that, because 273 00:17:46.630 --> 00:17:50.270 I'm not, but I'm. I'm glad that it's an. So many 274 00:17:50.270 --> 00:17:54.010 examples of people who have chosen, kind of what 275 00:17:54.010 --> 00:17:57.890 you were getting at with Nelson Mandela and others have chosen to do their 276 00:17:57.890 --> 00:18:01.810 work differently and are better for it and the world is 277 00:18:01.810 --> 00:18:05.690 better for. It. Yeah. Again, as you're talking, my mind's 278 00:18:05.690 --> 00:18:09.610 racing ahead, thinking, you touched a few buttons there. 279 00:18:09.610 --> 00:18:13.330 And I'm thinking in my own experience, about 280 00:18:14.210 --> 00:18:15.730 12, 15 years ago, 281 00:18:18.210 --> 00:18:22.180 I awoke for one of the, you know, to paraphrase, lived same as you. 282 00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:25.620 I'd lived a lived life of privilege on the outside, 283 00:18:27.300 --> 00:18:31.300 benefited from that privilege. And then suddenly I, I stepped out of 284 00:18:31.300 --> 00:18:35.020 that lane into another lane and it was, it was a lot 285 00:18:35.020 --> 00:18:38.980 tougher, a lot harder, a lot more. And I think once I look back 286 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:42.900 at that time, I definitely see myself transitioning through that 287 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.020 awareness of what's going on in the world. Suddenly I'd lost 288 00:18:47.020 --> 00:18:49.300 a lot of privilege and gained a lot of 289 00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:54.020 marginalisation for Want a better way of describing it. And I think that 290 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:57.620 then woke me up to the injustice in the world. 291 00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:02.300 I think maybe when you say you talk to people there, queer 292 00:19:02.300 --> 00:19:06.260 people, people of colour, whatever it may be, is they've, they've, they've, 293 00:19:06.260 --> 00:19:09.900 they've started to. They've experienced this wind in their face all their lives, or they 294 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:13.560 suddenly open the door and it's hit them and you go, hang on a minute. 295 00:19:13.800 --> 00:19:17.520 Whereas if you never open that door, you never feel that wind, you never have 296 00:19:17.520 --> 00:19:21.440 that feeling of being marginalised. It's really hard to build 297 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.360 empathy with someone who has. You haven't got any reference point, have. 298 00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:29.320 You? Well, that's why, you know, people in our industry use the phrase, you 299 00:19:29.320 --> 00:19:33.240 know, do the work. It's ubiquitous, right? Do the work, do your work, do the 300 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.160 work. We gotta do the work. And we do. But I think sometimes 301 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.710 do the work is. Is implied too 302 00:19:40.710 --> 00:19:44.630 narrowly, I think, when people, because I've had so 303 00:19:44.630 --> 00:19:48.470 many conversations and either personal conversations or witnessed kind of 304 00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:52.350 conversations or been part of online conversations, where do the 305 00:19:52.350 --> 00:19:56.310 work means get woke 306 00:19:56.950 --> 00:19:59.990 and they're talking to privileged folks. Do the work. 307 00:20:01.110 --> 00:20:05.030 Understand kind of what you were taught, understand why we're so upset, 308 00:20:05.820 --> 00:20:09.780 why black folks are so upset about racism, why queer folks 309 00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:13.100 are so upset, et cetera. And that is necessary 310 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:17.580 and I don't disagree with that at all. Yes, do that work. 311 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:21.180 And to me, do the work 312 00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:26.380 also includes just as equally. And if I was a 313 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:30.140 good graphic designer, I'd have some fancy little graphic that would show this 314 00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:34.040 in maybe like a quadrant or something, means do 315 00:20:34.040 --> 00:20:38.040 your inner work, do your inner work, do your 316 00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:42.000 healing work, whatever that looks like. For me, it's 317 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.960 been Buddhist meditation, mindfulness philosophy. Right. 318 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.960 The equanimity stuff that we started with doesn't have to be everyone's, 319 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.480 you know, angle into it, but there has to be something 320 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.560 that is, that is healing. Or else, as I keep 321 00:20:57.560 --> 00:21:01.490 coming back to, it's the other work that you're doing isn't going 322 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:04.490 to be effective or sustainable. 323 00:21:05.530 --> 00:21:09.290 So the other part of my story that, you know, I said my, My father, 324 00:21:09.370 --> 00:21:12.570 he was. So I was, I was 14 325 00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:17.650 and I was, I was. Lived in San Diego and my dad had moved to 326 00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:21.130 San Francisco. We'd been there, I think, since I was 11. So I'd go up 327 00:21:21.130 --> 00:21:23.730 and visit him and it was kind of cool to come from the suburbs and 328 00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:27.100 go to the big city and ride the cable cars and, you know, all the, 329 00:21:27.100 --> 00:21:29.980 all the fun. Go to, go to Haight street and see all the hippies. And, 330 00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:33.700 you know, all the. All the San Francisco touristy things. So I was 14, 331 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:37.860 end of my freshman year in high school. And he sat me down at the 332 00:21:37.860 --> 00:21:40.300 end of the weekend, and it was usually one of those, hey, I love you, 333 00:21:40.300 --> 00:21:43.140 Jared. I wish we could see each other more often. You're a good kid. You 334 00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:46.180 know, all those things, which he did do. And then he said, 335 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:50.500 you know something? You should know I'm gay, so I'm 14. 336 00:21:51.540 --> 00:21:55.220 This is the late 80s. We know what was going on in the world, 337 00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:59.040 especially in the United States. Reagan was still, I think, president, 338 00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:03.040 maybe for a little bit longer. So there's a huge stigma. 339 00:22:03.520 --> 00:22:07.520 So I didn't tell anyone. I went home. I cried, I went 340 00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:11.280 home, and I didn't tell anyone for almost 341 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:15.280 six years. I had the privilege of geographical separation. No one knew 342 00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:18.520 my dad. They knew he lived in San Francisco. And I'd go up and see 343 00:22:18.520 --> 00:22:22.240 him three, four, five times a year. But I went through 344 00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:26.000 all the rest of high school and halfway through college without telling anyone because I 345 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:29.810 was embarrassed. I was ashamed. I was confused. My dad and I had a. We. 346 00:22:29.810 --> 00:22:33.570 We. We had a decent relationship. But about 347 00:22:33.570 --> 00:22:37.490 halfway through college, I was a college athlete, and I wasn't 348 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.490 mature enough to. To have a. Have a gay dad, to 349 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:45.330 own that, right? So he and his partner would visit, you know, 350 00:22:45.330 --> 00:22:48.850 every once in a while, and I'd have to arrange things or make up lies. 351 00:22:48.850 --> 00:22:51.290 And. Yeah, it's my dad and his friend, and we're just going out to lunch 352 00:22:51.290 --> 00:22:54.280 and. No, no, you know, we don't need to invite any of my friends. Dad. 353 00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:57.840 It's. Cool. Like, that kind of. I don't know if I can swear on this 354 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:01.640 podcast, but that kind of bs, right? So finally, 355 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.320 summer of my. So after my sophomore year, about halfway through college, I was with 356 00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:09.560 my friend Amy and I. And she was my best friend since. 357 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.520 Since high school. She went to school in Colorado, and we were in the mountains 358 00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:16.640 camping, and I said, amy, I gotta tell you something. She's like, what's going on? 359 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.310 You're being weird. I said, my dad's gay. Said, big fucking deal. 360 00:23:20.470 --> 00:23:24.470 So I was 20 years old. And that was. That was the. The 361 00:23:24.470 --> 00:23:28.270 moment that I wouldn't say I changed all of a sudden. And just like, with 362 00:23:28.270 --> 00:23:31.950 his was this, you know, gay. Gay rights advocate. But that 363 00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:35.830 opened up like, oh, like, this is. This is. This is a me thing. 364 00:23:35.830 --> 00:23:39.630 This is like a limiting belief that I have. So it 365 00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:42.910 started growing and growing a little bit. And then when he was. When I was 366 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:45.160 27 is when. When he passed. 367 00:23:46.520 --> 00:23:49.400 And so when he, 368 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:54.200 he, he was HIV positive and so he, I would go up and visit 369 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:58.120 him. You know, I'm in my mid-20s now, out of college, still living back in 370 00:23:58.120 --> 00:24:01.960 San Diego and I'd go up to visit him and he started going 371 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.560 to these gay men's meditation circles in Dubose, 372 00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:09.800 Dubose Triangle. People know the city, it's right next to the Castro. It's like kind 373 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:13.240 of a cute little neighbourhood. And it would just, it'd be him with like three 374 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:17.120 other men in their 40s and 50s and this woman who led it 375 00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:21.040 and then me, this 26 year old kid and, 376 00:24:21.120 --> 00:24:25.040 and this woman would lead these like little. It was in this super 377 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:29.240 huge like open yoga studio with skylights and hardwood. 378 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.400 It was beautiful. And she would lead us in these, in these 379 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:36.520 meditations. Sitting, we do like walking, chew, like 380 00:24:36.520 --> 00:24:39.490 eating like all this stuff that I know now is like, you know, Buddhist stuff. 381 00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:42.810 But at the time I hated, was physically 382 00:24:42.810 --> 00:24:45.250 uncomfortable, it was hard to sit still. 383 00:24:46.530 --> 00:24:50.330 But my dad, who was never religious or even 384 00:24:50.330 --> 00:24:53.810 spiritual, he knew he was, you know, he knew he was going to die 385 00:24:54.610 --> 00:24:58.290 soon. And so he felt that he needed something to ground 386 00:24:58.290 --> 00:25:01.970 him. And so that's what he did. And I was, 387 00:25:02.050 --> 00:25:04.970 I know now that I was lucky to be exposed to that. I probably went 388 00:25:04.970 --> 00:25:08.900 to those sessions maybe not even a half a dozen times, 389 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:12.740 probably four times. And when he died I decided, 390 00:25:12.820 --> 00:25:16.820 and it wasn't with the clarity that I had, but I 391 00:25:16.820 --> 00:25:20.340 decided that I would do the work 392 00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:24.100 that I described before to understand 393 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:28.420 the injustices, but I would also do my personal work 394 00:25:29.300 --> 00:25:33.060 and develop equanimity, develop, 395 00:25:33.860 --> 00:25:37.700 cultivate the healing for myself so that 396 00:25:38.340 --> 00:25:42.220 I could do the work more effectively. So that's the 397 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:46.100 origins of the, or the, the original origins. 398 00:25:46.100 --> 00:25:50.100 There are more recent stories that have deepened my appreciation and 399 00:25:50.180 --> 00:25:53.940 belief in the need for healing. But that was the, 400 00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:57.940 the original genesis of. It. When you said yeah, your friend 401 00:25:57.940 --> 00:26:01.860