WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives? You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:19.690 And today is episode 188 with the 19 00:01:19.690 --> 00:01:23.570 title the Art of Authentic Living. And I have 20 00:01:23.570 --> 00:01:27.090 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sam Turlington. 21 00:01:28.050 --> 00:01:31.730 Sam is a non binary, award winning actor and multi 22 00:01:31.730 --> 00:01:35.690 hyphenated creative whose work champions queer joy 23 00:01:35.690 --> 00:01:39.690 and the complexity of authentic storytelling. And when I asked 24 00:01:39.690 --> 00:01:43.570 Sam to describe their superpower, they said that it is seeing people soulfully 25 00:01:44.050 --> 00:01:47.650 honouring the truth of. Of their experience. Sam, 26 00:01:47.810 --> 00:01:51.770 welcome to the show. Hello. It's lovely to be here. So, judging 27 00:01:51.770 --> 00:01:55.770 by the accent, you're not based in the uk, where I live. So where 28 00:01:55.770 --> 00:01:59.570 in the world are you? So I. I'm American, I live in New York 29 00:01:59.570 --> 00:02:03.330 City, but I have really strong ties to the uk. I 30 00:02:03.330 --> 00:02:06.850 got my master's degree in Glasgow. I think you're saying before we went on air 31 00:02:06.930 --> 00:02:09.850 that you spent a lot of time working up in Glasgow and you've just come 32 00:02:09.850 --> 00:02:13.709 back to the us? Yes, I do. I. I'm actually working on a 33 00:02:13.709 --> 00:02:17.709 film in Glasgow at the moment and a lot of my colleagues are in London 34 00:02:17.709 --> 00:02:21.349 as well. So I pop over and we create things together 35 00:02:21.429 --> 00:02:24.869 and yeah, I'm all over the place. 36 00:02:25.989 --> 00:02:29.789 I'm fascinated by the term multi hyphenated. So what is, what 37 00:02:29.789 --> 00:02:33.749 is. What is a multi hyphenate creative then? So 38 00:02:33.749 --> 00:02:37.509 essentially, you know, when I first trained, I got my BFA 39 00:02:37.589 --> 00:02:41.549 many, many years ago. You could just kind of be one thing like you, you 40 00:02:41.549 --> 00:02:45.090 focus and that for me, at the time, that was just 41 00:02:45.330 --> 00:02:49.330 an actor. And as my career has developed and shifted 42 00:02:49.330 --> 00:02:53.210 and changed, and as I have developed and shifted and changed, I've taken 43 00:02:53.210 --> 00:02:56.530 on other positions. You know, I've produced 44 00:02:56.690 --> 00:03:00.530 films, I have directed plays. I don't know 45 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:04.530 that just one title suits me. So, but saying 12 of them would 46 00:03:04.530 --> 00:03:08.210 be a mouthful. So just I'm a creative arts multi hyphenate. 47 00:03:08.210 --> 00:03:11.480 Boom, there it is. But always an actor first. 48 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:15.320 So it's kind of the identity equivalent of being non binary, I guess. So you're 49 00:03:15.320 --> 00:03:19.200 not nailing yourself to any particular identity there? Absolutely. I think my 50 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:22.960 entire life could be summed up as if I find myself on a binary, 51 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.840 I jump off of it immediately. So what makes you tick? 52 00:03:27.640 --> 00:03:31.520 What was your kind of inspiration as a young person to plot 53 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.320 your course in this direction? So I have a fundamental 54 00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:40.290 curiosity at the core of my person to just connect and 55 00:03:40.850 --> 00:03:44.210 wonder. And I grew up in a. 56 00:03:44.690 --> 00:03:48.130 Not a small town, but in a small southern space 57 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:52.770 where I didn't really have a lot of access to the wider world around me. 58 00:03:52.930 --> 00:03:56.690 And I found myself just gravitating towards 59 00:03:56.690 --> 00:04:00.690 anything that was different from what my upbringing had introduced 60 00:04:00.690 --> 00:04:04.650 me to. And that's how I fell into acting. Because as an artist, as an 61 00:04:04.650 --> 00:04:08.040 actor, you get to take on other people, other 62 00:04:08.040 --> 00:04:11.760 personalities, you get to walk in another person's shoes, you get to research 63 00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:15.800 their experiences and put yourself in scenarios that you yourself 64 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:19.720 would never find yourself in. So I 65 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:23.480 think in a strange way, my core 66 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.440 nature of curiosity and wanting connection with the 67 00:04:27.440 --> 00:04:31.440 outside world led me to acting. And then I'm pretty sure it's that that 68 00:04:31.440 --> 00:04:35.250 led me even deeper in myself to discover that I'm non 69 00:04:35.250 --> 00:04:39.170 binary and that my experience of the world is much more varied than I 70 00:04:39.170 --> 00:04:42.810 originally thought. When I was a kid, just being an actor playing, 71 00:04:43.050 --> 00:04:46.810 playing a part through someone else's words. I guess most of the time when you're 72 00:04:46.810 --> 00:04:50.610 acting, someone else has scripted you. You're someone else's 73 00:04:50.610 --> 00:04:54.170 Persona. Did that give you an opportunity to maybe 74 00:04:54.650 --> 00:04:58.610 step outside of yourself and try on new things? Is that kind of what 75 00:04:58.610 --> 00:05:02.460 happened there? Absolutely. I would say, you 76 00:05:02.460 --> 00:05:06.420 know, as a young actor, you get a script and your first instinct 77 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:09.340 is to say, well, how would I do this? And then you learn very quickly, 78 00:05:09.340 --> 00:05:12.860 oh, that doesn't actually serve, you know, the play or the film or whatever it 79 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:16.660 is you're doing. So I felt a freedom to be like, oh, great. 80 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.540 I don't have to think about what Sam would do. I get to 81 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:24.580 use the tools I have to figure out what this person would do. And 82 00:05:24.580 --> 00:05:28.390 then the freedom that comes from that to be like, great. I don't have 83 00:05:28.390 --> 00:05:31.670 to worry about how I feel about a thing. I know how they feel about 84 00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:35.670 a thing. And then the inevitable conclusion of that is, okay, 85 00:05:35.670 --> 00:05:39.630 well, I, Sam, do not understand why this kind of person would make this 86 00:05:39.630 --> 00:05:43.550 kind of decision because it's so vastly different from what 87 00:05:43.550 --> 00:05:47.550 I would do. So then you have to, you know, 88 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:51.470 whatever kind of research you do, talking to people. I sought a psychology 89 00:05:51.470 --> 00:05:55.390 minor when I went into my time in university. I was like, I have to 90 00:05:55.390 --> 00:05:59.370 understand why people do the things that they do do. And really 91 00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:03.210 all that was doing was fostering greater empathy for 92 00:06:03.210 --> 00:06:07.010 people in the world around me. So it's amazing how all that kind of plays 93 00:06:07.010 --> 00:06:10.970 in together. Yeah. When I used to run IT companies and when I 94 00:06:11.210 --> 00:06:14.010 tend to transition about 10 years ago, give or take, 95 00:06:14.970 --> 00:06:18.090 I bulked from this new part of my career, both career and 96 00:06:19.130 --> 00:06:22.090 identity and I was looking for what I was going to do in the middle 97 00:06:22.090 --> 00:06:24.540 of the night and I thought I would try and get into acting because I 98 00:06:24.540 --> 00:06:28.540 had a few friends who were, who did bit parts, you 99 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:32.420 know, the sort of, you know, they were. The person walking behind somebody or 100 00:06:32.420 --> 00:06:36.140 they were serving them at a table. There's sort of minor roles 101 00:06:36.380 --> 00:06:39.820 and I wrote with a lot of agencies and I never, I never got anywhere 102 00:06:39.820 --> 00:06:43.180 as it happened, but I did, I did have a couple of auditions doing a 103 00:06:43.180 --> 00:06:45.940 few things and it kind of got me into that. It made me realise that 104 00:06:45.940 --> 00:06:49.100 I didn't want to do it, to be honest. But it was, it was fascinating 105 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.720 because I actually changed my bio to being aspiring actor at 106 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.760 one point. You know, I love it, you have. To manifest it for it to 107 00:06:56.760 --> 00:07:00.280 become real. So I tried to manifest it on my bio 108 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:04.720 and I just decided it was. It didn't pay very well. You know, it 109 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.680 doesn't, you know, when you're in that early stage, £100 for a day 110 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:12.320 or something. And I thought that's a lot of work to go all the way 111 00:07:12.320 --> 00:07:14.760 to London and back and stand around and maybe get to. 112 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:19.320 I decided I wanted to focus on higher worth 113 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.560 opportunities. I absolutely understand the amount of 114 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.200 work that you have to put in as an actor 115 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.440 compared to the benefit and 116 00:07:30.999 --> 00:07:34.640 compensation that you get, especially early career is near 117 00:07:34.640 --> 00:07:38.600 impossible. Sometimes I'm inspired by. I don't know how younger me 118 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.130 did it, I really don't. And I applaud them. And 119 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.170 any young actor who's starting out right now, particularly, 120 00:07:46.170 --> 00:07:50.170 goodness gracious, they're my heroes. I don't. The leap of faith you 121 00:07:50.170 --> 00:07:53.090 have to take and the amount of work you have to put in and the 122 00:07:53.090 --> 00:07:55.890 amount of rejection you have to deal with in an already 123 00:07:56.770 --> 00:08:00.690 tumultuous world that's rejecting you and your identity potentially 124 00:08:00.690 --> 00:08:03.170 is overwhelming. 125 00:08:04.610 --> 00:08:08.610 But I soon figured out that my stage was different. It didn't need to 126 00:08:08.610 --> 00:08:12.210 be an acting stage. So I'm now a keynote speaker, a professional speaker on stage. 127 00:08:13.030 --> 00:08:16.470 So you still bring that larger than life Persona. 128 00:08:16.870 --> 00:08:20.870 So you. Absolutely. It's authentic, but it's a bigger version of you. 129 00:08:21.590 --> 00:08:25.350 It's not the quiet you, it's the stage you. So yeah, 130 00:08:25.750 --> 00:08:29.590 I enjoy performing because I think being a professional keynote speaker 131 00:08:29.670 --> 00:08:33.482 is a performance as well. It has to have Act 1, Act 2, 132 00:08:33.538 --> 00:08:37.310 Act 3 and thank you at the 133 00:08:37.310 --> 00:08:40.990 end. So yeah, it is like being a solo performer. 134 00:08:40.990 --> 00:08:44.929 Solo act for sure. The overlap between public speakers 135 00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:48.889 and keynote speakers and actors is. I mean the Venn diagram 136 00:08:48.889 --> 00:08:52.889 is a circle. Basically it's the same thing. Except for I think you 137 00:08:52.889 --> 00:08:56.529 usually control what you're going to say and we sometimes are 138 00:08:56.689 --> 00:09:00.569 saying other people's words. Sometimes I don't know what I'm going to say next. It 139 00:09:00.569 --> 00:09:03.969 is like ad lib. Sometimes it is. Yeah, lots of. And 140 00:09:04.129 --> 00:09:07.489 improv. And improv. Yeah. Yes. And 141 00:09:08.740 --> 00:09:12.580 yeah. So yeah. But I mean obviously I know what the topic is when I 142 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:16.340 stand on stage. I know what I'm gonna talk about roughly. But in all seriousness. 143 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:19.420 And if you're looking to book and pay me to do anything, don't worry, I 144 00:09:19.420 --> 00:09:22.340 always get it right. But I often don't know what I'm gonna say next until 145 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:26.020 it actually comes out my mouth. Cause it is conversational often. Yes. 146 00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:29.620 I actually think that's a really wonderful skill 147 00:09:29.940 --> 00:09:33.900 and it's something that all actors have to be in some 148 00:09:33.900 --> 00:09:37.770 way shape or form good at improv. And if 149 00:09:37.770 --> 00:09:41.770 not improv, when you're in a play, you have 150 00:09:41.770 --> 00:09:45.370 to be so comfortable with the script that it's as if you are saying it 151 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:49.090 off the cuff. It's as if it's not pre planned. So 152 00:09:49.170 --> 00:09:52.850 I think knowing the shape of a conversation, 153 00:09:53.170 --> 00:09:56.690 knowing the shape of what you want to say, knowing, okay, we're going to go 154 00:09:56.690 --> 00:09:59.730 here, we're going to move here, we're going to end here eventually. 155 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:04.380 That's the most important thing. You don't always need to know exactly what words and 156 00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:08.020 exactly what order are coming out of your mouth. But knowing what the journey's going 157 00:10:08.020 --> 00:10:12.020 to be is incredibly important and a 158 00:10:12.020 --> 00:10:15.500 really good skill to have when you're working on a very wordy play 159 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:19.900 because your errors are going to happen, you're going to make mistakes 160 00:10:19.900 --> 00:10:23.900 and recovering from that is really the mark of 161 00:10:24.060 --> 00:10:27.460 a true professional. How you recover and for simply, it's not just you that makes 162 00:10:27.460 --> 00:10:30.940 messes up, it's the person you're acting against or with and 163 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:34.230 they've gone off on one and you're thinking, well, that's not in my script, but 164 00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:36.670 I'll just have to rock with this and see what happens, see when you come 165 00:10:36.670 --> 00:10:40.070 back. And I'll pick it up from wherever you leave it. Yeah, you just gotta 166 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:42.910 roll with the punches sometimes. And if it goes off the rails, it goes off 167 00:10:42.910 --> 00:10:46.790 the rails. And if you're in a play, it's going 168 00:10:46.790 --> 00:10:50.630 off the rails live in front of a bunch of people. And either 169 00:10:50.630 --> 00:10:53.710 they're gonna be on board or they're not gonna be on board. And it's your 170 00:10:53.710 --> 00:10:56.790 job to get them on board with whatever madness is happening. 171 00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:01.200 I guess you've got to have faith in the writer because everything you're saying should 172 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.600 be optimised to be part of the storey or a necessary plot. 173 00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:10.320 You're often not just saying words for the sake of it. They're part of 174 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.240 evolving the character, aren't they? They should be. They certainly 175 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.240 should be. I think I didn't know this when I was a young artist, 176 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.320 but I have more experience now that 177 00:11:23.290 --> 00:11:27.210 you can hear the difference between a good script and 178 00:11:27.370 --> 00:11:31.330 just a script by how 179 00:11:31.330 --> 00:11:34.970 important is every word that the characters are saying? 180 00:11:35.450 --> 00:11:39.290 Is all the details coming out in an organic way? Is it a show me, 181 00:11:39.290 --> 00:11:42.890 don't tell me kind of thing? You can really hear if there's filler, 182 00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:46.490 if there's just fluff, language. Like, the writer was like, oh, this might sound a 183 00:11:46.490 --> 00:11:49.800 bit clever if I say it like this, but it doesn't serve the purpose of 184 00:11:49.800 --> 00:11:53.800 the storey. And they're out there. You're gonna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've auditioned with 185 00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:57.720 some doozy scripts, but, you know, that's my job, to make 186 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:01.560 it better and make it real and solve the problem as we say. You 187 00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:05.520 always want to solve the problem. Do you find yourself having 188 00:12:05.520 --> 00:12:09.480 your own version of predictive text in your head where you're listening along to 189 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.080 something and you know exactly what the next character's gonna say? I mean, I watch 190 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.560 TV and films all the time thinking, and I'm reading out the next time 191 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.240 Marie's looking at me going, how'd you know they were gonna say that? It just 192 00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:24.920 gonna happen. It is. All the time. Yeah. The 193 00:12:24.920 --> 00:12:28.760 same. Em and I will be on the couch and they'll be like, especially 194 00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:32.760 in high dramas, there's always those long pauses waiting for the next character 195 00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:36.040 to speak. And nine times out of 10, I'm like, I know exactly what they're 196 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:39.880 gonna say. And it's not even the gist of what they're gonna Say 197 00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:43.820 it's actually the word. Cause there's obviously there's lots of superlatives they could have 198 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:47.660 picked. And I go, I just say, da, da, da, da. There it is. 199 00:12:47.660 --> 00:12:51.540 Exactly what they just said. Almost in time with them as well. Yeah, 200 00:12:51.540 --> 00:12:55.260 maybe I became invested in the character and I became with them. Honestly, 201 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:59.540 that might be you syncing up with the character and their narrative. That's a form 202 00:12:59.540 --> 00:13:03.100 of acting as well, is being able to empathetically get 203 00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:07.380 into the headspace of someone else so much that their words 204 00:13:07.380 --> 00:13:11.340 are coming out of your mouth. Absolutely. So you obviously hang out 205 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:14.860 in creative space a lot as a 206 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:18.860 thespian. If you identify as a thespian, a producer or your 207 00:13:18.860 --> 00:13:22.780 hyphenates out there, I would imagine as someone who isn't in that space, 208 00:13:22.780 --> 00:13:26.700 that it's a very open, queer friendly type environment. Is that 209 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:30.660 a truism? Say yes with an asterisk. 210 00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:34.260 It's. The majority of creative spaces are going to be open to 211 00:13:35.060 --> 00:13:38.820 queer people and multiple identities and things like that. 212 00:13:39.150 --> 00:13:42.870 It shocked me to discover that some 213 00:13:42.870 --> 00:13:46.790 creative places are not. I didn't. I never really considered that. I 214 00:13:46.790 --> 00:13:50.750 kind of took for granted that everyone who works in this 215 00:13:50.750 --> 00:13:54.630 industry has the level of empathy required to 216 00:13:54.630 --> 00:13:58.350 just be cool with everybody and be 217 00:13:58.430 --> 00:14:02.390 specifically inclusive of everybody. Because being cool with someone and being inclusive of them 218 00:14:02.390 --> 00:14:05.960 are very different things. And a few years ago, 219 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.760 I went to a play 220 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.720 that I didn't know anything about, but someone was like, hey, I have a ticket, 221 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.280 let's go. It was a small off off Broadway play and 222 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:20.799 I was not in the audience very long before I realised this is a 223 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.600 conservative propaganda piece. And I am surrounded 224 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.920 in a theatre with actors, with 225 00:14:28.920 --> 00:14:32.730 directors, all of the normal people, but they're putting on 226 00:14:32.730 --> 00:14:36.690 this play that's saying some really not okay things. And 227 00:14:36.770 --> 00:14:39.810 it was my first interaction with how could this happen 228 00:14:40.530 --> 00:14:44.450 in our community? I didn't know these spaces existed. And so of course, I 229 00:14:44.450 --> 00:14:48.450 go out into the lobby afterwards and there's some prominent conservative media 230 00:14:48.450 --> 00:14:52.450 figures there. And I'm like, this is odd. And I talk to, 231 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:55.570 like the house manager and stuff and I'm like, how in the world 232 00:14:56.850 --> 00:15:00.510 do spaces like this happen? And she goes, well, we all have to 233 00:15:00.510 --> 00:15:04.350 eat and we have jobs to do and we get hired to do these jobs. 234 00:15:04.350 --> 00:15:08.150 And sometimes the people that we're working for are not 235 00:15:08.150 --> 00:15:11.990 great, but we don't control who rents the 236 00:15:11.990 --> 00:15:15.790 theatre. Some people are dicks and you can't legislate. It was so 237 00:15:15.790 --> 00:15:19.430 shocking because the house manager was like, well, you know, I don't know 238 00:15:19.910 --> 00:15:23.670 when the theatre gets rented, we don't know what show's going in there, so 239 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.520 we're just as surprised as you. And I said, well, what about the actors? Do 240 00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:30.880 you know what's going on with that? And she was like, you know, 241 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:35.360 it's an acting job and some actors can just be like, well, you know, I'm 242 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.320 not gonna worry about it. I'm just gonna do my job and then get on 243 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.480 with it and take the paycheck. I was shaken by that news. 244 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:46.720 Can't bring your friends to the opening night, can you? Oh, 245 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.000 I don't know, sort of have. This shame I'm in this play or you can't 246 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.300 come and see it. It's awful. Here's the thing. I've been in some bad plays, 247 00:15:55.300 --> 00:15:58.460 but I've never been in bad plays because they were written by bad people 248 00:15:59.020 --> 00:16:02.980 like, or had something bad to say. I will happily invite my friends 249 00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:06.380 to a bad play that's not very good and the writing or the storytelling is 250 00:16:06.380 --> 00:16:10.260 green. But my goodness, I don't know if I 251 00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:14.140 could ever agree to be in a play that was actively trying to 252 00:16:14.140 --> 00:16:17.940 cause harm to somebody or is going to say something that could cause harm to 253 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:21.560 somebody. So other than that very specific 254 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:25.800 group of people that does exist, maybe 5% 255 00:16:26.280 --> 00:16:30.200 of the industry as I know it, most every creative space I'm in 256 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:34.280 is wonderfully queer friendly. Thank goodness. You said earlier 257 00:16:34.280 --> 00:16:38.000 about it's not you playing the role, you're having to step into the character and 258 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.920 the character plays the role, if you like. Where do you stand on 259 00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:45.720 your own identity? Do you play CIS male, CIS female 260 00:16:46.050 --> 00:16:50.050 characters as a non binary person or do you have to bring your identity into 261 00:16:50.050 --> 00:16:53.930 that role as well? My first and foremost approach is to always bring 262 00:16:53.930 --> 00:16:57.850 my identity to a role. But I play CIS women all 263 00:16:57.850 --> 00:17:01.690 the time. I've had the very A highlight for me has been 264 00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:05.490 playing CIS men recently, which is really great. I usually 265 00:17:05.890 --> 00:17:09.890 when I get cast as whatever gender identity, the 266 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:13.829 first conversation I have with the director is, okay, you have chosen someone 267 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:16.909 like me to play this role. Let's deal with 268 00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:21.069 the narrative dramaturgical ramifications of that or 269 00:17:21.629 --> 00:17:25.469 the gift that that is. I was in a play last year by a 270 00:17:25.949 --> 00:17:29.789 wonderful playwright who's actually in the uk and the role I was cast as 271 00:17:29.789 --> 00:17:33.789 was just called the son S o n and it was a family dynamic where, 272 00:17:33.789 --> 00:17:37.789 you know, parents and then a son and a daughter and 273 00:17:38.080 --> 00:17:41.040 they cast me as the son and the director said, actually, 274 00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:45.920 how would you feel if we explore what this role's gender 275 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.840 identity actually is. Does it actually need to be a CIS 276 00:17:49.840 --> 00:17:53.640 man? It doesn't have to be. Let's see what happens. And we ended 277 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.560 up coming to the conclusion that this character was non 278 00:17:57.560 --> 00:18:01.040 binary and it actually served the storey better 279 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.350 for them to be so. So that was a moment of me 280 00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:09.270 bringing who I am to the role and it actually made the play 281 00:18:09.350 --> 00:18:12.870 better. And I think now the writer has actually rewritten 282 00:18:13.190 --> 00:18:16.950 the script so that that character just is non binary. Now I 283 00:18:16.950 --> 00:18:20.790 suppose at that point there, you're then having to give an authenticity 284 00:18:20.790 --> 00:18:24.790 consultation top to bottom on that script so that 285 00:18:24.870 --> 00:18:27.590 all the characters who interact with that character 286 00:18:28.630 --> 00:18:32.150 know that person's identity, how they're going to refer to them, how those 287 00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:35.860 relationships, work, family, whatever, and all those little 288 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:39.420 words that you forget agenda, suddenly you have to be 289 00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:43.340 reorientated, don't they? Absolutely. One very specific example 290 00:18:43.340 --> 00:18:47.300 of that. I was in a production of as yous like it, and I 291 00:18:47.300 --> 00:18:50.660 was playing Touchstone, who's the clown in that play 292 00:18:52.100 --> 00:18:55.220 and originally written for a CIS man. 293 00:18:56.340 --> 00:19:00.340 But we decided that in the context of the play, this 294 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:03.940 character would start out in stealth mode, hiding 295 00:19:04.260 --> 00:19:08.180 as if they were a CIS man, but then transitioning to non 296 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:11.980 binary as the play went on. And we got curious of like, 297 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:15.699 okay, how are we going to support that with Shakespeare's language in a very 298 00:19:15.699 --> 00:19:18.940 well known play? And we ended up getting curious about 299 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:22.940 neopronouns and maybe Touchstone refers 300 00:19:22.940 --> 00:19:26.940 to themselves with zee zem zir and how does that fit with 301 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:30.540 Shakespeare's language? And as we got curious, as we 302 00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:33.460 dived dove into the text and explored, 303 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:38.420 we just decided, you know, what Shakespeare was doing all 304 00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:41.220 kinds of weird gender stuff a long time ago. I don't think he would mind. 305 00:19:41.300 --> 00:19:44.980 We changed all of Touchstone's pronouns in the script so that even when other 306 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:48.660 characters referred to them, they used these 307 00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:52.610 neo pronouns. And then there was an evolution of like when they were 308 00:19:52.610 --> 00:19:56.410 in the first act in the very strict horrible Court, they 309 00:19:56.410 --> 00:20:00.290 referred to Touchstone as him. And then they slowly 310 00:20:00.290 --> 00:20:03.730 started going to they them. And then by the end of the play, Z zem's 311 00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:07.690 ear, which was so cool, to figure out how that 312 00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:11.370 functions and to not put any limits on what it could be. And it's actually 313 00:20:11.370 --> 00:20:15.250 quite like real life as well, because you don't go from here 314 00:20:15.250 --> 00:20:18.940 to there overnight. You don't wake up one morning and go, well, maybe you do, 315 00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:22.820 but you have to bring the world with you, don't you? Yes. I 316 00:20:22.820 --> 00:20:26.220 say, there's a joke that everyone makes. 317 00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:30.940 It's the he, him to he, they to they, she 318 00:20:31.180 --> 00:20:34.700 to they, them to she her pipeline, it just 319 00:20:35.020 --> 00:20:38.780 starts to go and. Cause it's an exploration. 320 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:42.060 It's a soft launch, isn't it? Coming out as non binary. It can be a 321 00:20:42.060 --> 00:20:45.900 soft launch, but that validates your, that, that also invalidates non binary 322 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.780 identities as seeing it as a. Oh, you're just trying it out. 323 00:20:49.820 --> 00:20:53.780 That's actually my destination. So you've got to be careful. You're not propagating that myth, 324 00:20:53.780 --> 00:20:57.740 isn't you? Yes, of course. Because like, and some people 325 00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:01.420 can use non binary, the non binary identity as like a 326 00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:05.180 stopping ground to kind of sit and reorient before they move on to something 327 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:08.900 else. Because they might think that being non binary is my destination. But then they 328 00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:12.410 get here where I am and they go, oh, I thought this was the 329 00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:16.250 conclusion, but it's actually not. And they can keep going. And then some people like 330 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:20.130 myself get here and we go, sweet, we've made it home. This 331 00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:23.730 is the correct thing. And I have explored the other 332 00:21:24.050 --> 00:21:27.810 direction and been like, oh, nope, that wasn't right. So the 333 00:21:27.970 --> 00:21:31.810 freedom to move from one to the other and to validate 334 00:21:32.370 --> 00:21:36.370 everyone as they're passing through or making camp 335 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:40.190 as twere, I think is really important. Yeah, no, I get that 336 00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:44.030 completely. Yeah, I skipped the middle bit. I just went straight to the other end. 337 00:21:44.030 --> 00:21:47.350 I just, I knew I was going at the book, had the map, 338 00:21:47.750 --> 00:21:51.550 honestly. Yeah, respect. To know exactly where you're going, 339 00:21:51.550 --> 00:21:55.190 exactly what you want. All of my trans siblings who know exactly 340 00:21:55.190 --> 00:21:59.110 like, this is me, I have such respect for that and I have such 341 00:21:59.110 --> 00:22:02.710 admiration for it because I've just never been able to make up my mind. 342 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.730 But to be fair, my evolution was back in the 1970s and 343 00:22:07.730 --> 00:22:10.250 you know, think about how long ago that was. And 344 00:22:12.010 --> 00:22:14.850 she her was bad enough in those days. You know, there's no, there's no kind 345 00:22:14.850 --> 00:22:18.490 of. There's no, There was no queer option or gender queer or 346 00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:22.250 gender expansive options at the time. You had to be here or I had to 347 00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:26.170 be here. And that bit in the middle was a destination rather than, 348 00:22:26.330 --> 00:22:30.330 as you say, a stopping ground. Absolutely. What's going on here then? Let's 349 00:22:30.330 --> 00:22:34.260 have a look around. So true. I mean, as 350 00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:37.860 tumultuous as things are right now for our community, 351 00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:43.220 I can't fathom the experience that it was in 352 00:22:43.540 --> 00:22:46.500 the 80s, in the 70s, in the 60s and beyond. 353 00:22:49.300 --> 00:22:53.220 Unbelievable. Well, there was just, there was no language. 354 00:22:53.540 --> 00:22:57.430 There was nothing to envy or be worried about. It was when you've got 355 00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:00.710 no options, you don't worry about having no options because you don't know no options. 356 00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:04.550 So you don't know what you don't know. Absolutely. That was 357 00:23:04.550 --> 00:23:08.470 a big thing in conversations around my coming out, because I, as 358 00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:12.470 far as the current generation believes I came out 359 00:23:12.470 --> 00:23:16.230 later in life because so many of our community members get to come out when 360 00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:20.190 they're like children because they know exactly who they are and they have 361 00:23:20.190 --> 00:23:24.040 the access to the language. But non binary did not exist 362 00:23:24.040 --> 00:23:27.320 when I was in high school. When I was in middle school, I didn't. I 363 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:30.920 don't think I met an out trans person until I was in 364 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.840 college. So I had no access to that identity 365 00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:38.679 or that life or how it might apply to me. Which, 366 00:23:39.320 --> 00:23:42.520 hilariously, I figured that out through 367 00:23:43.560 --> 00:23:47.160 theatre. I got cast not long out of school, 368 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.250 I got cast in a play playing 369 00:23:51.290 --> 00:23:55.210 a trans woman. And in that time, 370 00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:59.170 the conversation around casting CIS actors as trans people was 371 00:23:59.170 --> 00:24:02.970 not existent really, or was not loud like it is 372 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:06.970 now. But I ended up playing a trans character. 373 00:24:07.370 --> 00:24:10.570 And it was the first time my brain went, is this me? 374 00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:15.050 This is the way I feel. And it was a 375 00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:19.370 doorway. I tell that I haven't ever told that director who cast me 376 00:24:19.370 --> 00:24:22.530 in that play, but I need to write her a letter and say thank you, 377 00:24:22.610 --> 00:24:26.410 because if it wasn't for that play, I don't know that I would have gotten 378 00:24:26.410 --> 00:24:30.210 the unlock as early as I did in my adulthood. 379 00:24:31.170 --> 00:24:35.090 It would have been many, many more years later before figuring out who I was. 380 00:24:35.410 --> 00:24:37.730 Maybe she knew something that I didn't. I don't know. 381 00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:42.930 Now you say that I can relate to that experience where 382 00:24:44.910 --> 00:24:48.870 there's a life trigger that allows you to unlock that 383 00:24:48.870 --> 00:24:52.750 door, whatever that may be. So when I say I knew 384 00:24:52.830 --> 00:24:56.830 from a very early age in my life there were certain 385 00:24:57.070 --> 00:25:00.910 triggers that if that hadn't have happened at that time, 386 00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:05.110 it may have happened later. But I can say that, well, that was a key 387 00:25:05.110 --> 00:25:08.590 to that door that went, now let's explore that. And then 388 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:11.440 once you've got the key, you want to keep trying the doors, don't you? You 389 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.920 want. Yeah, I've got the key now. I want to keep opening stuff. So, yeah, 390 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.760 I see what you mean. You were in a situation where your brain 391 00:25:18.760 --> 00:25:22.640 went, okay, let's play with this and see what happens. You go, actually, it fits. 392 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.040 It works. Yeah, yeah, I remember. So. 393 00:25:26.600 --> 00:25:30.520 So clearly I was cast in this role and the director said, okay, 394 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.920 so we've cast you as a trans person and the writer of 395 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.660 this play was a trans woman, and she 396 00:25:38.660 --> 00:25:42.660 has asked that you go to lunch with her 397 00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:46.860 so that she can help you understand the mindset, so that you 398 00:25:46.860 --> 00:25:50.740 can. Doing my actor job, I am researching and 399 00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:54.420 getting information. So Carla and I went to lunch 400 00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:59.140 and as she is orienting me to what it feels like, 401 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:03.310