WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.270 And today is episode 192 with the 19 00:01:18.270 --> 00:01:22.270 title Beyond Performative Inclusion. And I 20 00:01:22.270 --> 00:01:25.510 have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sile Walsh. 21 00:01:25.910 --> 00:01:29.350 Sile is an award winning coach, author and 22 00:01:29.350 --> 00:01:32.790 leadership specialist dedicated to embedding equity and 23 00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:36.390 psychological safety into leadership and organisational culture 24 00:01:36.550 --> 00:01:40.550 worldwide. When I asked Sile to describe their superpower, they said 25 00:01:40.710 --> 00:01:44.160 it is bridging lived experience with leadership 26 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:48.040 insight to drive systemic inclusion. Hello, Sile. 27 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:51.120 Welcome to the show, Joanne. Thank you for having me. 28 00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:56.080 Absolute pleasures. And when I was just 29 00:01:56.080 --> 00:01:59.799 logging on this morning to set this episode up, I was looking at your name, 30 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:03.360 thinking, I wonder how I pronounce that? And I had to nip onto 31 00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:07.000 LinkedIn. So whilst you're speaking English, you're not from 32 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.749 England, you're from Ireland. Yeah? Yes, yes. And my 33 00:02:10.749 --> 00:02:14.429 name is spelled, it's actually, I've butchered it a little bit. It's actually 34 00:02:14.749 --> 00:02:17.989 with a father, so S I fader L E. But a lot of people call 35 00:02:17.989 --> 00:02:21.429 me Sile, which I am fine with. But when I used to live in England, 36 00:02:21.429 --> 00:02:24.949 actually, and I'd be called like in the hospital or something, they used to come 37 00:02:24.949 --> 00:02:28.749 out and say, silly, do we have sill? 38 00:02:29.229 --> 00:02:33.109 Because they didn't want to say silly and that's what they thought my name was. 39 00:02:33.109 --> 00:02:36.990 But yes. So I'm based in Ireland, in Dublin. I have lived and worked in 40 00:02:36.990 --> 00:02:40.750 the UK and I still do go back and forth for work, but my 41 00:02:40.750 --> 00:02:44.350 name, and actually my name here is Walsh, but my Irish name is Sile 42 00:02:44.350 --> 00:02:48.270 Branock, but it's, it's a mouthful to spell for people, so Sile 43 00:02:48.270 --> 00:02:51.630 Walsh is much quicker and it's. It's kind of a shame really that you have 44 00:02:51.630 --> 00:02:55.310 to adapt who you are to make it easier for other People, as you say. 45 00:02:55.310 --> 00:02:59.270 Yeah, your. Your authentic surname is hard for people 46 00:02:59.270 --> 00:03:03.070 to spell or hard for people to. To read and pronounce, I guess, 47 00:03:03.070 --> 00:03:07.000 and find ourselves having to fit into other people's cultures, don't 48 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.760 we? Yeah, it's an interesting one because in Ireland, being 49 00:03:10.760 --> 00:03:14.200 Irish is very like. Is very important and I know every country has it, but 50 00:03:14.200 --> 00:03:18.120 because of our history with the uk, it is very important. And having an Irish 51 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:21.880 name for lots of people is more than their name, it's about their. Their 52 00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:25.800 history and. And what side of the history that they. They 53 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:29.240 are Irish from, let's say. I actually don't 54 00:03:29.810 --> 00:03:33.490 mind because for me, who I am 55 00:03:33.890 --> 00:03:37.330 and my identity is about my relationship with myself 56 00:03:37.650 --> 00:03:41.490 first and foremost. And then my. For me in the 57 00:03:41.490 --> 00:03:45.330 world, my job is to find the places where I 58 00:03:45.330 --> 00:03:48.770 can meet other people and they can meet me. And sometimes I have to adjust, 59 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:52.650 sometimes they have to adjust. It doesn't. Even though it's my name, it doesn't feel 60 00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:56.620 like an adjustment of who I am. It feels like a translation, 61 00:03:56.780 --> 00:04:00.740 which is different to this idea of fitting. I'm just translating it to 62 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:04.140 something that's understandable. But, yeah, it's a bit like when I deal with my nephew 63 00:04:04.140 --> 00:04:07.620 who's now 11 and I adore, or my niece, who's 17. I adjust my 64 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:11.100 conversations to meet them in a way that we can meet each other. 65 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:15.420 So I don't. I don't feel that same pressure. Whereas there's other people who do 66 00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:19.420 very strongly feel that it's important that you know 67 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:23.240 their authentic name and can pronounce it in their language. 68 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.920 I know most people don't speak Irish and so saying my Irish name, 69 00:04:27.320 --> 00:04:30.280 they butcher it anyway, you know what I mean? Even with the best attempt, if 70 00:04:30.280 --> 00:04:34.000 you don't speak a tongue. Like, I'm not great at Irish myself, but I know 71 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.800 enough to be able to pronounce the word. So it's an. It's an interesting one. 72 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.680 You know, how we're seen in the world and how we interact based on our 73 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.600 names. I think, yeah, that's important. 74 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.040 You know this. What you do is psychological safety, 75 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.970 organisational culture. Sometimes what we find when we talk about 76 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:55.450 inclusion is demands of people to meet us where we are, 77 00:04:55.930 --> 00:04:59.810 rather than trying to find that middle ground and meeting each other somewhere in the 78 00:04:59.810 --> 00:05:03.810 middle there to help each other come a 79 00:05:03.810 --> 00:05:07.810 barrier or a conflict or a challenge. What you're doing 80 00:05:07.810 --> 00:05:11.330 here is you're putting yourself into the middle rather than expecting everyone to come to 81 00:05:11.330 --> 00:05:15.210 you. But the reason that I do that is 82 00:05:15.210 --> 00:05:19.200 because I'm not letting myself behind when I do that. So there'll be 83 00:05:19.200 --> 00:05:23.120 parts of my identity that I might feel if I don't bring with me very 84 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:27.040 strongly I've left something important behind. And I'm sure for people, we 85 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.680 all have different versions of what part that would be. But my name, 86 00:05:31.640 --> 00:05:35.160 like my name, for me, I'm named after my grandmother. I'm the eldest 87 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.080 of that. That line. I was the first grandchild, but I'm also the first 88 00:05:39.320 --> 00:05:43.080 female. The name means so much more than what anyone would ever 89 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:46.880 conceive anyway. And so I bring it with me where I am, as 90 00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:50.820 opposed to needing other people to see it the way I see it. 91 00:05:50.820 --> 00:05:54.820 Yeah. So it's interesting. But for other people, it has very different meanings and weights, 92 00:05:54.820 --> 00:05:58.780 but I do. It depends whether we have to, when we meet someone, wherever 93 00:05:58.780 --> 00:06:02.660 we meet them, whether leaving it behind is protective in some way and we 94 00:06:02.660 --> 00:06:06.420 don't really have the choice. Whereas for me, it's in 95 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:10.060 me, so it doesn't matter if other people understand it. I can hold it for 96 00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:12.820 myself and it doesn't have a negative impact on me, 97 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:17.780 you know, Whereas maybe if people presume I'm English, 98 00:06:17.780 --> 00:06:21.180 that has a different impact. So I don't just leave that in the background. 99 00:06:22.060 --> 00:06:25.980 So there's these kind of subtle things that I guess we all have 100 00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:29.980 that have more and less need for external witnessing. 101 00:06:30.380 --> 00:06:34.220 And just my name isn't. Because it comes from. Well, it's Irish, so it has 102 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:38.100 a deep heritage meaning. It's my grandmother's name. It's an honour to be named after 103 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:41.960 someone who raised my aunts and uncles with such courage and 104 00:06:41.960 --> 00:06:45.120 velocity and, you know, so. So to me, I don't need somebody to know all 105 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:48.760 that for me to. To be comfortable with it. But there would be other things, 106 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:52.720 as I'm sure we all have, that it would. Like when people assume 107 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:56.480 I'm English abroad, that's quite frustrating as an Irish person. Right. So. And 108 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.560 sometimes even in Ireland, because I grew up in, in the uk, I spent a 109 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.440 couple of years in uk and in the uk I was Irish because that was 110 00:07:02.440 --> 00:07:05.960 how we understood ourselves growing up in London. Come back to Ireland and I assume 111 00:07:05.960 --> 00:07:09.710 I'm Irish, but I'm actually English to the Irish kids. Right. So 112 00:07:09.790 --> 00:07:13.510 in both places, I was never quite enough, I guess, or, or. 113 00:07:13.510 --> 00:07:17.270 Or didn't belong enough. And so when someone mistakes my heritage, 114 00:07:17.270 --> 00:07:21.110 that hurts, but not when they mistake my. My name or, you know, I hold 115 00:07:21.110 --> 00:07:24.790 that differently. Although I'm getting better now when they mistake where I'm from, I'm Thinking, 116 00:07:24.790 --> 00:07:26.910 yeah, well, it's your best guess. It's not bad guess. 117 00:07:28.750 --> 00:07:32.270 I've chatted to other people in the past who have mixed heritage and 118 00:07:32.510 --> 00:07:36.320 this lady I spoke to always said that she's too white to be black 119 00:07:36.320 --> 00:07:40.040 and too black to be white. So you're, you're too English to be 120 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.200 Irish and too Irish to be English, and it's obviously. But you're not, you don't 121 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:47.160 want to be English, but you, your native, if 122 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.480 you like, you've inherited a worldly Persona. 123 00:07:51.440 --> 00:07:54.400 And it's an interesting one because I spoke to a psychologist at a conference a 124 00:07:54.400 --> 00:07:58.080 couple of years ago. She's a child psychologist and she talked about people from 125 00:07:58.640 --> 00:08:02.600 mixed cultural backgrounds. Now, both my parents are Irish, but living in a country that 126 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:06.230 isn't of your culture for formative years 127 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:10.030 changes your cultural identity. And she talks about 128 00:08:10.030 --> 00:08:13.430 how those of us who are, who are, have had cultural 129 00:08:13.430 --> 00:08:17.230 experiences during development years having mixed culture, even if our 130 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:20.870 parents aren't from a mixed culture, because we've grown up in different 131 00:08:20.870 --> 00:08:24.750 cultures and how this sense of home is so, so 132 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:28.470 different. And I really resonate with that because I have brothers who 133 00:08:28.470 --> 00:08:32.190 have. So also my accent, it might not be obvious to you, Joanne, but my 134 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:35.970 accent in Ireland is considered English and in England my accent is consider considered 135 00:08:35.970 --> 00:08:39.650 Irish, but my brothers have Irish accents. My dad and my mom 136 00:08:39.650 --> 00:08:43.490 generally have Irish accents. And so it's also very unusual 137 00:08:43.570 --> 00:08:47.530 in my family because I remember talking to, I don't know, when I was out 138 00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:51.250 dating, whatever, talking to some guy at the bar and he was saying, he was 139 00:08:51.250 --> 00:08:53.970 talking about my dad and my brothers because my dad trained him at one point 140 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:57.650 and he said, no, no, there's no girl there, there's only two lads. I was 141 00:08:57.650 --> 00:09:01.130 like, no, no, they, you've just. They're my brothers and my dad and he's like, 142 00:09:01.130 --> 00:09:04.730 no, no, no, they, no, they were never in England. So he was cracking my 143 00:09:04.730 --> 00:09:07.450 accent and couldn't place me with my family because of it. 144 00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:12.970 And so, so it's interesting these kind of how that kind of cultural 145 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:16.570 mixed background, even though technically both my parents are Irish and my 146 00:09:16.570 --> 00:09:19.890 heritage is Irish, still comes into effect because of my lived 147 00:09:19.890 --> 00:09:23.850 experiences and being cultured in different, different norms. And like a very subtle 148 00:09:23.850 --> 00:09:26.250 one, this one used to come up a lot, was when I started going to 149 00:09:26.250 --> 00:09:30.210 school in Ireland, I used to bring pate on toast, which is very. But 150 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:34.010 it's because when our neighbour used to give us pate on toast constantly and it 151 00:09:34.010 --> 00:09:37.350 was the only thing I would eat at. And so at home, Everyone thought I 152 00:09:37.350 --> 00:09:41.150 was absolutely insane because first of all it's smelly. And second of all, nobody was 153 00:09:41.150 --> 00:09:45.070 getting pate on toast in East Cork, small country school and 154 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:48.870 Sheila's like rocking up with her, her burnt toast in her pate. So there was 155 00:09:48.870 --> 00:09:52.590 all these like subtle things, you know. Or we grew up with a Thai person 156 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:56.590 next to us cooking gorgeous Thai food and there was no spices 157 00:09:56.590 --> 00:09:59.270 in Ireland when I was growing up, you know what I mean? So we come 158 00:09:59.270 --> 00:10:02.940 back with spicy food and they're like, you know. But for us, for me, I 159 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:06.900 just thought everyone grew up with different foods. But that wasn't the case in the 160 00:10:06.900 --> 00:10:10.740 countryside in Ireland. Potato. Potato, wasn't it? It was, yeah, 161 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:14.700 like it was potato, it was white sandwiches. There was other things, 162 00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:18.700 but nothing like what I had exposure from coming from London. And so 163 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:22.500 even that was this kind of cultural odd. Like your 8 year old eats pate 164 00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:26.500 on toast, your, you know, they like curries. Like these were very strange 165 00:10:26.500 --> 00:10:30.500 things at that time. Now they're not, thankfully, but they were then. We were then 166 00:10:31.060 --> 00:10:34.980 into that because I mentioned in the green room. In the 90s I 167 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:38.980 worked for a bank and travelled extensively over the world for 168 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:42.660 that bank. And also I was a member of a club and the club 169 00:10:42.900 --> 00:10:46.580 used to have meets in different countries, 170 00:10:46.660 --> 00:10:50.420 different traditional. You stayed in people's houses. So you go to 171 00:10:50.420 --> 00:10:54.180 Finland, stay for a week in a Finnish family with their 172 00:10:54.180 --> 00:10:58.030 children and you'd sit in the hot tub outside, they'd put 173 00:10:58.350 --> 00:11:02.270 logs in the burner and they'd heat the hot tub and vodka. And 174 00:11:02.910 --> 00:11:06.830 Estonia running around in naked and jumping into plunge pools at three in 175 00:11:06.830 --> 00:11:10.670 the morning, having a lot of work done. But you're living within the culture and 176 00:11:10.670 --> 00:11:14.550 you really get to understand them. I suppose that 177 00:11:14.550 --> 00:11:18.550 was part of my formative years in my mid to late 20s to my 178 00:11:18.550 --> 00:11:22.160 mid to late 30s. That was part of my 179 00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:25.920 adult formulation, if you like. And I got a greater appreciation 180 00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:29.280 of the world and culture and 181 00:11:30.800 --> 00:11:34.680 ways of people interacting with each other, which I'd never had had. 182 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:38.000 I just stayed as a UK focused 183 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.360 person going on holiday once a year. I see myself as more 184 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:46.160 multicultural, which I guess is why the 185 00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:49.840 UK's decision to leave the EU did so much at the time. Because 186 00:11:51.160 --> 00:11:54.440 that's futures being global, not not 187 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.360 local. And I see what you're saying there, it's of 188 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.840 culture and the value add that people bring through their history. 189 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:09.640 It was once nothing you said in the green one, because I was just checking 190 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:14.600 how you're identifying your gender so I could make sure I use the Right, pronouns. 191 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.330 In the introduction you said agnostic, you know, of the 192 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:22.290 gender. It's not that you're non binary or not female, you're just not bothered 193 00:12:22.290 --> 00:12:23.970 by it. So, yeah. 194 00:12:26.530 --> 00:12:30.210 It'S taken me a while to move through it because 195 00:12:30.450 --> 00:12:34.330 from a human rights perspective, I wouldn't want to undermine anyone 196 00:12:34.330 --> 00:12:37.810 else else's relationship with their own gender. And I say that because 197 00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:41.650 often at the moment, within the kind of LGBTQ plus 198 00:12:42.380 --> 00:12:46.380 population, there's all sorts of breaks and arguments and this idea that if 199 00:12:46.380 --> 00:12:49.980 you have that identity, it challenges mine and, you know, 200 00:12:50.060 --> 00:12:54.020 lots of prob, to me, lots of problematic, oppressive practises 201 00:12:54.020 --> 00:12:57.860 occurring when. When. So one of the things with kind 202 00:12:57.860 --> 00:13:00.660 of coming from a background and not being Irish enough and then not being English 203 00:13:00.660 --> 00:13:03.780 enough and all of these things and then going on to be, you know, to 204 00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:07.540 find out I was dyslexic and not really quite being smart on 205 00:13:07.540 --> 00:13:11.460 paper, but being quite smart verbally and cognitively, but 206 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:14.900 just not being able to capture on paper and then kind of moving through the 207 00:13:14.900 --> 00:13:18.740 queer community. And that's how I identify it more because it's just quicker for me 208 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:22.620 to say I'm queer and not being lesbian enough, gay 209 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:26.620 enough, not being feminine in one way, but then 210 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:30.060 not being this assumption that I'm a certain 211 00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:34.420 gender, a certain kind of identity. I started to realise that the only time my 212 00:13:34.420 --> 00:13:38.420 gender is relevant is when other people are assessing how they 213 00:13:38.420 --> 00:13:42.300 want to interact with me. So the pronouns is a respectful way to do it. 214 00:13:42.460 --> 00:13:46.300 That's like a question of how do I respect you in this conversation. That's great. 215 00:13:46.540 --> 00:13:50.460 But often when somebody's trying to put me into any identity group, whether 216 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:54.380 it's through my sexuality or through gender, they're kind of trying to 217 00:13:54.380 --> 00:13:58.220 pick a box to put me in to decide how I 218 00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:01.770 should be interacted with. And when someone says to me, you know 219 00:14:02.170 --> 00:14:06.130 about my gender, like, the only times I know about my gender is based 220 00:14:06.130 --> 00:14:09.370 on how other people interact with me. I don't wake up and feel like 221 00:14:10.410 --> 00:14:14.130 a strong woman, let's say, unless in that moment something 222 00:14:14.130 --> 00:14:18.130 connected to my womanhood is relevant. And if I'm really honest, the only time that 223 00:14:18.130 --> 00:14:21.530 anything is connected to something like that, it's more connected to 224 00:14:21.930 --> 00:14:25.850 being assigned female at birth, which is mostly around healthcare. 225 00:14:25.850 --> 00:14:29.620 That's the most time that anything is relevant to me about these 226 00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:33.340 things. And I understand that they're relevant to other people for other reasons, but 227 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:36.620 I just. And I understand, I even understand why, like 228 00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:40.860 critical gender feminists hold their position. I understand why pro 229 00:14:41.020 --> 00:14:44.819 trans and non binary People hold their position. I just don't care what you 230 00:14:44.819 --> 00:14:48.220 think I am. It doesn't give me anything. 231 00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:52.780 The only thing I have an issue with is if you decide I'm something 232 00:14:53.180 --> 00:14:56.620 and then you decide how I should be because of it. But my real issue 233 00:14:56.620 --> 00:15:00.380 is that your decision about how I should be is my. It's my problem. 234 00:15:00.540 --> 00:15:04.460 And if I'm honest, I think it came from first the sexuality stuff, 235 00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:08.620 which is, you know, my wife looks they soft, butch, 236 00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:12.540 I guess, typically. And people assume I'm femme. But, like, when we have to 237 00:15:12.540 --> 00:15:16.500 deal with situations, I deal with the things that are traditionally considered butch. I grew 238 00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:20.300 up in the country, you know, I can do that stuff. She doesn't, let's 239 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:23.420 say. And so when people are putting us in these boxes, I find it really 240 00:15:23.420 --> 00:15:27.410 interesting because they're just deciding, first of all that we're 241 00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:31.130 female, and then they're deciding what type of female, and then they're 242 00:15:31.130 --> 00:15:35.130 deciding what kind of, like, lesbian, you know, and then they go on and on 243 00:15:35.130 --> 00:15:38.850 and none of that fits. I'm like, you know, the only time you need to 244 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:42.530 worry about my gender is when it's relevant to you. And that's very 245 00:15:42.530 --> 00:15:45.570 rare. And the only time you need to worry about my sexuality is if I'm 246 00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:49.210 interested in you. Because you being interested in me doesn't change my sexuality. So the 247 00:15:49.210 --> 00:15:53.100 only time you need to cheque what my sexuality is is if I'm pursuing you. 248 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:56.420 And that's important to you in some way to know a lot of the time. 249 00:15:56.580 --> 00:16:00.500 And I just listened to a beautiful piece about one of the activists 250 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:04.460 in the States about who. Who was activating for trans 251 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:08.420 people's rights. And she identified as a. Sorry, he identified as a lesbian and then 252 00:16:08.420 --> 00:16:12.020 went on and identified as a trans man, but continued to identify as a 253 00:16:12.020 --> 00:16:15.740 lesbian. And one of the quotes that I thought was really powerful was the 254 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:19.540 labels are only meant to be used to help us understand each other, not 255 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:23.180 to stereotype us and put another box. And I 256 00:16:23.180 --> 00:16:26.980 suppose that's why I kind of don't interact very actively around 257 00:16:26.980 --> 00:16:30.780 gender, because I don't mind interacting about other people's gender if it's important to 258 00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:34.500 them. But my gender to me is only 259 00:16:34.819 --> 00:16:38.420 going to be used to make decisions about me that I'd rather you just ask, 260 00:16:38.900 --> 00:16:42.460 you know, like, if you want to treat me a certain way, maybe just treat 261 00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:45.920 me like a decent human being and don't assume things based on my gender. And 262 00:16:45.920 --> 00:16:49.000 if you do assume things, I can say yes or no to them, but 263 00:16:49.640 --> 00:16:53.640 it just doesn't it just doesn't make sense to me to tell people 264 00:16:53.640 --> 00:16:57.520 what my gender is when it. It's not relevant to 265 00:16:57.520 --> 00:17:00.640 them usually. And if I'm. As long as I'm not offended and I'm not offended 266 00:17:00.640 --> 00:17:03.840 by any pronoun use. If I was offended, that might be different. But I'm not 267 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.400 hurt or offended or I give no weight to the pronouns that are used about 268 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.240 me because that's not my experience of me. That's just how someone's making 269 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.660 sense of me. That's fine for me. It's much more important that I know me. 270 00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:17.820 Yeah, people can make sense of me. I. I like that as a kind of. 271 00:17:17.820 --> 00:17:21.820 A kind of meeting people where they are. You're recognising 272 00:17:21.820 --> 00:17:25.700 that the society needs to have some sort of hand or to 273 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:29.300 hook you on. It's. It's you. You're having to use 274 00:17:29.540 --> 00:17:33.460 this terminology, these words, these pronouns for other people's reference, 275 00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:36.340 not for your own. It relates to that I 276 00:17:37.710 --> 00:17:40.590 looking the green rice. I just thought about this which I was going to raise, 277 00:17:40.590 --> 00:17:44.510 which I'll do now. Is my marooned on a desert island 278 00:17:46.030 --> 00:17:49.910 self reflection. So if I'm washed up on a desert island, I'm the 279 00:17:49.910 --> 00:17:53.589 only human being on that island. Am I a 280 00:17:53.589 --> 00:17:57.230 sexuality? Do I have a gender identity or am I just a survivor? 281 00:17:58.670 --> 00:18:02.510 I don't think on my own I'm a survivor. I'm beef 282 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.040 human being because that's relative to other creatures on that island that I may be 283 00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:10.720 trying to eat. So I guess I'm a human if I'm on my own. 284 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.360 Gender's relative. Sexuality is relative to who I'm around. 285 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.240 And when someone comes to rescue me, someone else 286 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:22.160 gets stranded with me that I become relative to them. Am I more 287 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.160 feminine or more masculine than the person I'm with? That it has 288 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.760 a relativity. But other than that I'm just, I'm just 289 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.840 even have a name maybe. Maybe my deep thoughts. I may talk to myself 290 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:37.720 maybe. But my name's not important, my gender's not important, my sexuality is not 291 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.600 important. Just whether I can eat, drink and sleep and survive. 292 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.880 I often wonder whether we all concept of gender sexuality. 293 00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:51.120 I think as you said it's only relevant if I fancy you then decide if 294 00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:54.890 you fancy me then. So yeah, yeah. Isn't that a 295 00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:58.410 wonderful place to be where actually matter until I'm interested? 296 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.930 Well, I think there's. There's kind of. Because I get caught on this quite a 297 00:19:02.930 --> 00:19:06.890 lot because I think that that speaks to our relationship with ourselves 298 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:10.810 which is kind of. I think One point, and then there's 299 00:19:11.370 --> 00:19:15.130 how we're responded to in society is based on how society perceives us, 300 00:19:15.130 --> 00:19:18.730 not actually based on how we are, and so often 301 00:19:18.890 --> 00:19:21.930 not based on how we are, but actually how they perceive us or how the 302 00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:25.770 group. Because I kind of come from a group dynamics perspective. And at that point 303 00:19:25.770 --> 00:19:28.770 then we do need to have some sense of 304 00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:34.050 clarity, not necessarily about an individual's identity, but about 305 00:19:34.450 --> 00:19:38.330 collective protections. You know, so legislation, code of conduct 306 00:19:38.330 --> 00:19:42.090 with each other. And I think that sometimes in 307 00:19:42.090 --> 00:19:45.770 my. For me, what I've realised is if I have something unprocessed 308 00:19:45.770 --> 00:19:49.450 individually, I bring it into the collective and look for 309 00:19:49.450 --> 00:19:53.290 approval. But if, and this is just for me, if I have 310 00:19:53.290 --> 00:19:57.170 something that I have a good relationship with within myself, I don't need the 311 00:19:57.170 --> 00:20:01.010 collective approval, but I do need to make sure that the collective doesn't 312 00:20:01.010 --> 00:20:04.450 harm me because of it, which is a different thing to approval. But a lot 313 00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:07.890 of the stuff that I would have wanted kind of some kind of 314 00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:11.730 external approval on is usually the stuff I haven't 315 00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:15.450 got where I need to get to in myself, where I'm comfortable with me. 316 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:20.020 But the part that we do need to work on collectively is the protections. And 317 00:20:20.020 --> 00:20:23.700 I think that's. Sometimes those two things get collapsed. Nobody can 318 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:27.660 protect me from somebody not understanding me. And 319 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.579 that's appropriate because I don't understand everyone, but I shouldn't. 320 00:20:31.579 --> 00:20:35.300 And you know, and it's my belief from a human rights perspective, my identity 321 00:20:35.300 --> 00:20:39.180 shouldn't mean I am more exposed to, like, whether, you know, whether 322 00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:42.900 it's because I'm a trans person, whether it's because I'm a woman, 323 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:46.700 whether it's because I'm a man, whether it's because I'm black, 324 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:50.580 whether it's because. And for anyone watching the video, I'm a white person, I'm not, 325 00:20:50.580 --> 00:20:54.460 but I'm just giving an example. Regardless of the part of the identity that is 326 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:57.540 presented from a human rights perspective, I don't believe that should 327 00:20:57.940 --> 00:21:01.860 equate to further harm or more harm or higher risk. And 328 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:05.780 that's maybe where I think we sometimes collapse two separate things, which is 329 00:21:05.860 --> 00:21:09.710 my relationship with myself, the desire for us to have external approval, 330 00:21:09.710 --> 00:21:13.670 which I get, and then the harm part. And I do think we should be 331 00:21:13.670 --> 00:21:17.670 resolving the harm part, but I do find that sometimes we 332 00:21:17.670 --> 00:21:21.630 go other places with it, which can be unhelpful long term. You 333 00:21:21.630 --> 00:21:24.070 work with organisations, the leadership space, 334 00:21:26.310 --> 00:21:29.750 a bit of psychology. It's inclusive 335 00:21:30.790 --> 00:21:34.320 culture, if you like, what got you into what you were doing, 336 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.520 if you did all your Life or is it something you bumped into? 337 00:21:38.320 --> 00:21:42.200 Yeah, so I haven't, I've been doing it for about 14 years I guess is 338 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:46.040 the starting point. But before I was working in this field I left 339 00:21:46.040 --> 00:21:49.960 school at 15 because I was, I am, I was highly dyslexic. I 340 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.680 am very dyslexic and school was just torture. And I went on and did an 341 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.680 apprenticeship to be a chef and I was an awful manager. And I 342 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:01.390 don't say that lightly. I roared and shouted, I demeaned people I didn't know any 343 00:22:01.390 --> 00:22:05.310 better. I was 15, 16, running my first team. Everyone's older than me, you 344 00:22:05.310 --> 00:22:09.110 know, but I, I kind of started 345 00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:12.870 to. And I grew up during that whole time volunteering. I've been volunteering since I 346 00:22:12.870 --> 00:22:16.670 was very young and being involved in community groups and inequity 347 00:22:16.670 --> 00:22:20.550 was always visible to me because of the communities that I was working with 348 00:22:20.550 --> 00:22:24.270 and I came from, even where I worked was a really well off place with 349 00:22:24.270 --> 00:22:27.760 lots of well off people. But I was also working with people 350 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.800 from, you know, underprivileged areas or I myself come 351 00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:35.760 from like a working class background. So I was constantly seeing that the same 352 00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:39.240 thing didn't result in the same outcome for everyone. And I was always quite 353 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.960 fascinated. Went back and forth to India for a few years, kind of 354 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.960 exploring spirituality and kind of got into psychology and started doing some courses, 355 00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:51.040 side courses to learn about myself. And as I was doing that, I 356 00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:54.430 was still in my volunteering work and I was saying, you know, I'm working with 357 00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:58.110 leaders who are, who have lots of power and 358 00:22:58.110 --> 00:23:02.110 privilege. And then I turn around and I go into a community room where 359 00:23:02.110 --> 00:23:05.910 people have very little access to what they need. 360 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:09.670 And it just felt really contradictory, constantly this tension between 361 00:23:10.070 --> 00:23:13.870 this room we could nearly do anything we wanted and this room we've to 362 00:23:13.870 --> 00:23:17.790 beg for resourcing or something or just understanding or 363 00:23:17.790 --> 00:23:21.460 approval. And so I was kind of always had this tension and I grew up 364 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:25.100 in a home where they wouldn't use this language. But you 365 00:23:25.100 --> 00:23:29.100 weren't just obligated to yourself, you're obligated to your collective in some 366 00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:32.660 way. So we would have always supported others. Our family would have had people stay, 367 00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:36.540 you know, we would have invited people to Christmas dinner. We would have been involved 368 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:40.460 in charity work. Not like sit all singing, all dancing, just it was like 369 00:23:40.460 --> 00:23:44.340 a normal part of my family experience that you take care of those near you 370 00:23:44.590 --> 00:23:47.230 who need it and they will do the same for you and did do the 371 00:23:47.230 --> 00:23:50.390 same for us. And so it was always kind of there and Then I was 372 00:23:50.390 --> 00:23:54.350 working with leaders. And before I ever called it inclusive leadership, I come from a 373 00:23:54.350 --> 00:23:58.310 relational and collective leadership perspective because of my background, community work, 374 00:23:58.310 --> 00:24:02.110 you know, and I was always using inclusion without that 375 00:24:02.110 --> 00:24:06.070 word, because I was helping people understand that the 376 00:24:06.070 --> 00:24:09.950 environment you put people in has as much impact on their performance 377 00:24:10.030 --> 00:24:13.910 as their capability, and that if that environment is set up correctly. And I 378 00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:17.910 knew this because I'd been going to school and suffering and failing, but also I 379 00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:21.630 was working part time and thriving and I was running a team at 16 380 00:24:21.950 --> 00:24:25.790 in a really important pastry kitchen in Ireland and I wasn't able 381 00:24:25.790 --> 00:24:29.790 to like, barely get through a test. So I knew that the environment mattered 382 00:24:29.870 --> 00:24:33.830 and so that was always in my work. And then about five years ago, I 383 00:24:33.830 --> 00:24:36.150 made a few calls and I said, if I was going to do a PhD 384 00:24:36.150 --> 00:24:39.880 on something and I have access to leaders because that's who I work with, 385 00:24:40.120 --> 00:24:43.920 what would I do? And one person said, look into what inclusive leadership could be 386 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.840 practically in real organisations. And the other person said, please 387 00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:51.560 don't effing look at D. And I generally look at something 388 00:24:51.560 --> 00:24:55.520 specific so that I can tell leaders, this is how you engage with 389 00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:58.600 it. So they were very clear that whatever I did had to be 390 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.210 practical for leaders to connect with. And so I kind of 391 00:25:03.210 --> 00:25:07.050 started to sow in my previous experience and the knowledge I had from 392 00:25:07.050 --> 00:25:11.010 all the different small courses I had done and my coaching training. And I started 393 00:25:11.010 --> 00:25:14.850 to realise that if I was to understand inclusion scientifically, 394 00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:18.890 I could help leaders more effectively. Because leaders often think to be 395 00:25:18.890 --> 00:25:22.490 inclusive they have to know everything about everyone. And what I figured out was you 396 00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:24.770 don't need to know everything about everyone, you need to know how to work with 397 00:25:24.770 --> 00:25:28.730 everyone. That's a different, different beast altogether. And so it kind of 398 00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:31.770 evolved in that way. But one thing I will tell you is the minute I 399 00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:35.490 use the term inclusive leadership, the people who sought me out 400 00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:39.490 changed. And that was interesting because I've always been working with inclusive leadership. As 401 00:25:39.490 --> 00:25:43.170