AJ Hannah: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone
Joanne Lockwood: not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.
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Joanne Lockwood: the status quo and share storeys that resonate
Joanne Lockwood: deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're
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Joanne Lockwood: connect, reflect and inspire action together.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out
Joanne Lockwood: to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 193
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Animating Queer Futures.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome AJ.
Joanne Lockwood: AJ is the founder and creative director of 3dio
Joanne Lockwood: Studios, a queer bipoc woman led indie
Joanne Lockwood: studio creating adult anime series, animated series
Joanne Lockwood: Poison Us. And she also champions
Joanne Lockwood: globally resonant LGBTQ storytelling.
Joanne Lockwood: So when I asked AJ to describe her superpower, she said it is telling
Joanne Lockwood: storeys and it is something she loves to do and always has
Joanne Lockwood: done. Hello, AJ, welcome to the show.
AJ Hannah: Hello. Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. This is our
Joanne Lockwood: second attempt. So we tried this probably a couple of months ago and
Joanne Lockwood: detect differences between us and anyway, we're back today.
Joanne Lockwood: Whereabouts in the world are you? You're. You're. You're in the States somewhere. I
AJ Hannah: am in the States on the east coast, near
AJ Hannah: Washington dc. In between that? In between that. So what's the weather
Joanne Lockwood: like this time of year? Is it getting colder? Is it. It is getting colder,
AJ Hannah: but it's that nice fall cold where you're wearing your plaid
AJ Hannah: and your. Yeah, it feels really nice. And the
AJ Hannah: pollen has finally died down a little bit because it's just cold enough to kill
AJ Hannah: off that last round of like weeds and hay fever. That really tries.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So it's nice, soft, warmish. We just
AJ Hannah: had Halloween. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yes. So the
Joanne Lockwood: trick and treating is big in the States. I mean, over here it's become becoming
Joanne Lockwood: something, but probably not as big as it is in the States. Big
AJ Hannah: in the States. I have two kids and they were just
AJ Hannah: tearing through the neighbourhood in the pitch blackness and I was like,
AJ Hannah: great, awesome. Door to door. We noticed over here is you go to
Joanne Lockwood: the local cinema and they're Doing reruns of all the horror movies. Sort of
Joanne Lockwood: October is horror movies these and then everything is there. All the
Joanne Lockwood: Halloween movies or the, all the Freddy Kruegers and all this
Joanne Lockwood: other stuff. Final Destination comes out. I think they bring that back. And so yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a lot of. Culturally we seem to do a lot of horror movies on
Joanne Lockwood: at the cinema at this time of year. Yeah, we have a
AJ Hannah: decent amount of horror movies come out on like the streaming
AJ Hannah: platforms and then there's some that show like, hey, you have a
AJ Hannah: limited showing in theatres, but I mean it'd be nice to do, to do that,
AJ Hannah: but you'd have to find one of those small
AJ Hannah: theatres that probably do it. We do, we're
AJ Hannah: big on Rocky, the Rocky Horror Picture Show. A lot
AJ Hannah: of theatres. Yeah, they'll either show it or they'll have like live
AJ Hannah: acts or plays of it that go on the same time the movie's running. Like
AJ Hannah: that's a big thing. So you never thought about your indie studio knocking out some
Joanne Lockwood: R rated horror then? We actually have a
AJ Hannah: thriller piece that we want to work on and it is,
AJ Hannah: it's got two women who try to seek
AJ Hannah: revenge on men who I guess treat women
AJ Hannah: poorly. It's called the Manslaughter Project and
AJ Hannah: so it's one of those thriller comedies
AJ Hannah: that. But we're, we're, we're way in, we're still in pre production with that.
AJ Hannah: So that's. Yeah. Oh, sounds intriguing. So I, I noticed from your
Joanne Lockwood: bio that you sent through that your studio
Joanne Lockwood: aims to be a gayer and more colourful
Joanne Lockwood: Disney. That's an ambition, isn't, is an ambition.
AJ Hannah: When you think about Disney? We have just this titan in the
AJ Hannah: industry right now and it's, I mean, I grew up on Disney.
AJ Hannah: A lot of us grew up on Disney. We watched the
AJ Hannah: movie the Lion King and really formative in our years.
AJ Hannah: And then, not to say, I mean, Disney still does great stuff,
AJ Hannah: but there's a whole section of Disney that I feel
AJ Hannah: could be better. And
AJ Hannah: then we had the closings in the last couple of years of a
AJ Hannah: lot of our DEI sectors and our LGBT
AJ Hannah: and bipoc and women were laid off.
AJ Hannah: If you know anything about the animation industry or the Hollywood industry,
AJ Hannah: the animators and artists, while they are a lot of
AJ Hannah: times female, they very rarely reach those
AJ Hannah: opportunities to become the creators or to become the
AJ Hannah: directors or become somebody that can actually call shots.
AJ Hannah: So once that started happening, a decent amount of us still
AJ Hannah: wanted to create and we wanted to create projects that were
AJ Hannah: reflective of who we are and when this
AJ Hannah: studio was formed, we decided, okay, this is going to be.
AJ Hannah: Our mission, is to tell these sort of storeys that
AJ Hannah: are missing in Disney. So when I say more colourful, I mean Disney's colourful
AJ Hannah: when it comes to colour and we love colour,
AJ Hannah: but we also want colourful, as in the different
AJ Hannah: shapes and colours of people
AJ Hannah: represented. So the main character isn't always,
AJ Hannah: you know, a person, you know, a white girl or a white
AJ Hannah: boy or a white male
AJ Hannah: toy or a. I mean, you can argue that
AJ Hannah: Lightning McQueen, he's a car, you know, he's a bright red
AJ Hannah: car. But we kind of know the demographic that he
AJ Hannah: represents. You know, between the manner of speaking
AJ Hannah: and the voice actor and
AJ Hannah: all of that, you. You kind of get the hint as to where he
AJ Hannah: falls. So that's what we want to do, is we want to bring
AJ Hannah: more people of colour in and
AJ Hannah: queer people in and people that haven't been able to really
AJ Hannah: lead and put those things in to
AJ Hannah: animation into storeys without that
AJ Hannah: pushback from the board or, hey, you need to rewrite this.
AJ Hannah: There was not exactly recently, but Disney had
AJ Hannah: that character who was trying to tell her
AJ Hannah: storey through baseball or softball and she
AJ Hannah: is trans and they had.
AJ Hannah: While the aspect of her transness still stayed, certain scenes were
AJ Hannah: cut out, like the scene of her having to choose in the locker room, that
AJ Hannah: was cut out. The. Some of the language was cut out when
AJ Hannah: she was trying to come out. And so we don't want to have to
AJ Hannah: censor those sort of things, if that makes
AJ Hannah: sense. But yeah, it's a big game, it's a big, big reach,
AJ Hannah: but we're going to do it. I think it's down to responsibility
Joanne Lockwood: of organisations and production companies like yourselves to take this messaging
Joanne Lockwood: on, because we can all criticise Disney and other corporates for their stance,
Joanne Lockwood: but we have to recognise they operate in territories all over the world. Some of
Joanne Lockwood: those territories. It's illegal to be queer in any shape or form.
Joanne Lockwood: They've got sponsors, they've got money, they got shareholders, they've got everything going on. So
Joanne Lockwood: they are trying to tow this middle line and we can complain that
Joanne Lockwood: they're selling out and they're not really standing up for us. I'd
Joanne Lockwood: rather invest in some, in an organisation such as yourselves
Joanne Lockwood: that aren't. Well, you're unashamedly
Joanne Lockwood: queer, queer led and you're trying to push that message
Joanne Lockwood: out to the masses and you're not, you're not actually going to be swayed
Joanne Lockwood: by someone saying, oh, you can't say that in China or no, in, in the.
Joanne Lockwood: In The Middle east. You're going to have to cut that bit out and change
Joanne Lockwood: that word. Aiming at a queer audience or an
Joanne Lockwood: ally audience who are receptive to the message of Chantel,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't you? Yeah. There are
AJ Hannah: people that are obviously going to say, hey, this isn't.
AJ Hannah: We can't show this here. And it's okay, fine, don't show it.
AJ Hannah: That's the people that will want to see it. They'll reach for
AJ Hannah: it, or they'll take it and they'll grab it and they'll want it. And we
AJ Hannah: have such a history, a robust history,
AJ Hannah: and even more, you know, future options for the people that, you know, don't
AJ Hannah: want to see queer or don't want to see people of colour in the
AJ Hannah: forefront. They still have all of their options. We're not taking anything from them,
AJ Hannah: obviously. We are building a media and
AJ Hannah: platform for people that want to and need that
AJ Hannah: sort of representation, want to have and need that sort of representation.
AJ Hannah: So we're not worried about. I mean, even in China, where
AJ Hannah: sometimes you'll get censored stuff, they'll still go, and
AJ Hannah: the queer young people of China will still go and they'll find
AJ Hannah: what they want to watch. That's just the way it is. Just even in the
AJ Hannah: States where you try to, you know, block something as simple as,
AJ Hannah: like high schoolers and you're trying to block, I don't know, Reddit at
AJ Hannah: their school, they'll find ways around so that they can read what they want on
AJ Hannah: Reddit. It just, it comes down to, this is what we're making
AJ Hannah: and we are making it for us and we're making it for our community.
AJ Hannah: And if you don't like it, you don't have to be a part of it.
AJ Hannah: That's fine. Yeah. But the advantage that you have
Joanne Lockwood: is your talent through a queer lens as well. It's not just
Joanne Lockwood: a straight director or a straight
Joanne Lockwood: screenwriter or the production is tend to be people straight with a
Joanne Lockwood: queer character or a queer author. Maybe. In there
Joanne Lockwood: you're telling the entire storey and the concept queer first, if you like, which
Joanne Lockwood: means you're going to get a different version, a different flavour
Joanne Lockwood: of the output than you would from a mainstream studio. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's the power, isn't it? So someone's quoting Abraham Lincoln the other day.
Joanne Lockwood: By the people, for the people, by the queer community, for the queer community. It's
Joanne Lockwood: going to be far more representation, isn't it? Yes, and that's important
AJ Hannah: when you want to tell a storey, you can put a queer character in there.
AJ Hannah: Or a character of colour in there. But if you don't have the
AJ Hannah: people behind it, the storyboard artists, the writers, the
AJ Hannah: voice actors behind it that can actually tell that storey in
AJ Hannah: a representative and authentic sort of way, then what
AJ Hannah: are you doing? That comes back to that 2020 where you're just sort. It
AJ Hannah: feels sort of like you're pandering or you're trying to
AJ Hannah: give the people what they want for commercial aspects rather than what
AJ Hannah: they're actually asking for. So we have a character in
AJ Hannah: Poison Us in our animated show coming up. We have a
AJ Hannah: character who is Filipino and our voice
AJ Hannah: actress is Filipino. We could have just cast a regular,
AJ Hannah: like any other sort of voice actress like that came to us.
AJ Hannah: We could have found somebody cheaper. We could have just said, hey, we need an
AJ Hannah: Asian voice actress. But no, we want somebody who. That is
AJ Hannah: representative of the demographic that we're putting out there.
AJ Hannah: Other character in Poison Us, Oleander, he
AJ Hannah: is a trans man. And we have a
AJ Hannah: trans person of colour playing Oleander
AJ Hannah: because that's important. It's important and authentic to have somebody in there.
AJ Hannah: And then I can also. If there's moments in the script that don't read
AJ Hannah: right or that maybe need to be changed, we allow
AJ Hannah: that flexibility to talk back and forth and be like, hey,
AJ Hannah: actually, in this culture, or in. We have that
AJ Hannah: exchange of ideas, so it's not gonna run up against
AJ Hannah: some sort of. I guess. What is that word that I'm looking for?
AJ Hannah: Not political. I'll just use the word inauthentic so that it doesn't
AJ Hannah: sound inauthentic. When we're creating a character, when we're creating a
AJ Hannah: storyline, we want it to be
AJ Hannah: reflective of other people. Like other Filipino
AJ Hannah: people when they see it, or other ace people when they see it, or other
AJ Hannah: trans men when they see it. We want their
AJ Hannah: experiences to be, hey, I actually relate
AJ Hannah: to this. Even though it's set in a world. With magic, I hear something there
Joanne Lockwood: about this authenticity part. And by going back
Joanne Lockwood: so it's 100% through the eyes, through the ears,
Joanne Lockwood: through the writing of someone with that lived experience and then portrayed by someone with
Joanne Lockwood: that lived experience, the character becomes real to the
Joanne Lockwood: people that it matters to. We see it in mainstream movies all the time. We
Joanne Lockwood: think, well, is that a straight guy playing a gay guy? Is
Joanne Lockwood: that. Is he. Is he really getting off on that kiss or that. That love
Joanne Lockwood: scene? Is he just performing? And, yeah, act is acting,
Joanne Lockwood: but if you believe that as well, that's part of the storytelling, is that
Joanne Lockwood: belief in that storey, that message that resonance, actually, that
Joanne Lockwood: is my storey as well. And there are so many
AJ Hannah: talented people that are not seen in
AJ Hannah: Hollywood because it's very much a who you know,
AJ Hannah: or this person knows this person and recommended them.
AJ Hannah: So you end up, or you went to school with this person. And that
AJ Hannah: leaves out a whole demographic that leaves out several demographics of people. That leaves
AJ Hannah: out people in other countries that maybe couldn't afford to go to scad. That
AJ Hannah: leaves out people that, you know, even in this country that
AJ Hannah: couldn't afford to go to acting school or, you know, knew that, hey,
AJ Hannah: acting school is probably not my best choice. As a queer person of
AJ Hannah: colour. I need something that I can fall back on, that's going
AJ Hannah: to spend more money, but at the same time, they're a
AJ Hannah: great voice actor or voice actress and they,
AJ Hannah: you know, do it on the side. They're not represented,
AJ Hannah: they're not being seen by people or they're just. They're thought to be
AJ Hannah: too niche, so they're not picked up by an agent.
AJ Hannah: There's so much talent out there that,
AJ Hannah: you know, if you just look, you can find it.
Joanne Lockwood: I think what you just said there about they're not getting picked up by the
Joanne Lockwood: mainstream agents, films, whatever it may be,
Joanne Lockwood: because they're not of the typical blend. So what you're also doing is the
Joanne Lockwood: valuable part of this is actually putting money in people's pockets,
Joanne Lockwood: giving visibility to people, amplifying people that would not
Joanne Lockwood: sort of be amplified elsewhere. So it's not just about telling someone else's storey and
Joanne Lockwood: the audience, it's actually providing income into that,
Joanne Lockwood: into that segment as well, isn't it? Mm. And there's a big critique with
AJ Hannah: indie animation right now. There's a lot of people
AJ Hannah: that create their own studios, that create their own
AJ Hannah: shows. And for pre product, pre production or even
AJ Hannah: sometimes production, they're not paying their
AJ Hannah: screenwriters or their voice actors. And for some people,
AJ Hannah: especially getting started in the voice acting scene, I mean, explain exposure
AJ Hannah: or building clips, that's great for them. Some people can do that.
AJ Hannah: And. But indie animation gets a bad rap
AJ Hannah: because we're. It's like, oh, you want us
AJ Hannah: to work for free for you? No, Wideo doesn't want you to work for free.
AJ Hannah: No, we pay everyone. Except for me. I don't get paid right now. And
AJ Hannah: that's fine. I put all the money back into the company and back into the
AJ Hannah: artists and animators and people that work with me to create our
AJ Hannah: projects. We know that, especially with all the people
AJ Hannah: that got laid off, it's important to have income, any kind of income.
AJ Hannah: And right now we can't afford to pay union rates. We
AJ Hannah: want to. And we want to be able to pay union rates to people
AJ Hannah: that are underrepresented, are. You know,
AJ Hannah: without an agent at this point, we don't have that sort of
AJ Hannah: income. Our Kickstarter has the goal of
AJ Hannah: being able to pay people that. And it's going on right now,
AJ Hannah: but we'll see if we reach that goal, honestly. But until then,
AJ Hannah: I'm paying people. FWDIO is paying people. We
AJ Hannah: want people that are underrepresented to get paying
AJ Hannah: gigs so that they can also put on their
AJ Hannah: resume that they had this paying gig. They have done
AJ Hannah: this thing for actual money for a company and
AJ Hannah: hopefully launch them even further. Yeah, because that. That c.
Joanne Lockwood: That showreel, that testimony is so
Joanne Lockwood: valuable. How can you get experience? And you need experience to get experience.
Joanne Lockwood: It's. It's a crazy world we live in. So this social proof, this footage
Joanne Lockwood: you can give, the portfolio you start helping people build is
Joanne Lockwood: invaluable for their career. As well as it is. And I remember going
AJ Hannah: into my first job, my first interview at I was
AJ Hannah: 15 or 16, and I went in for
AJ Hannah: a stockroom position. Position and at a grocery store.
AJ Hannah: And she asked me if I had any experience. And I said no.
AJ Hannah: Cause I mean, I'm clearly high school at that point. And
AJ Hannah: she goes, well, we're looking for someone with experience. And I
AJ Hannah: remember sitting there thinking, well, how do I get experience if nobody gives me
AJ Hannah: experience? But I mean, either way, I was
AJ Hannah: hired not in the stock room, but I was hired as a cashier up front.
AJ Hannah: So that was, I guess, but that was that first foot in the door
AJ Hannah: of okay, this is a job. And any kind of job
AJ Hannah: that I get, I have to use it to pivot to whatever I'm
AJ Hannah: doing next. Because it's hard. It's hard
AJ Hannah: to go in there with no experience and try to get something. Especially when it
AJ Hannah: says, hey, you need to have experience. And that's why I see a lot of
AJ Hannah: people in indie animation doing clips for free, doing voice acting
AJ Hannah: for free, because they're building that roster. So what is the typical
Joanne Lockwood: length of a feature that you produce? Is this
Joanne Lockwood: long hour, two hour, or is this short? We
AJ Hannah: have short. Okay, so Poison Us, the pilot is about
AJ Hannah: 10 minutes. The next several episodes are also in that
AJ Hannah: between 10 and 15 minute range.
AJ Hannah: Just because that's the amount that we've budgeted for. And we've
AJ Hannah: also found that we can tell that short enough storey in that amount
AJ Hannah: of Time. Now, what I was talking about briefly before the manslaughter
AJ Hannah: project, that's at more of an hour and a half
AJ Hannah: for a movie length. That's. But again, that one
AJ Hannah: is still in pre production, so we haven't nailed down the number. We just still
AJ Hannah: have the script that we're finishing out and
AJ Hannah: fleshing out and actually I'm looking for
AJ Hannah: a co writer on that one just because the
AJ Hannah: topic does have a mAJor
AJ Hannah: character, dear Woman, who is part of the
AJ Hannah: indigenous community. And this is one of those projects that I'm not going to go
AJ Hannah: forward on until we have a writer from the indigenous community
AJ Hannah: that is wanting to join on this. Because
AJ Hannah: that's a cultural icon. I guess icon's the wrong word.
AJ Hannah: That's. A dear woman is a cultural. Dear woman is a part of their
AJ Hannah: culture that I don't want to mess up
AJ Hannah: personally. And if I don't have somebody that can
AJ Hannah: consult on it and I don't have somebody that can write on
AJ Hannah: it, then that's not something. We're either gonna
AJ Hannah: have to pivot hard with the film or that one is gonna have to
AJ Hannah: be shelved because it's just. That's the way of
AJ Hannah: the world. Like I. That's the way of foidio, at least. It
AJ Hannah: doesn't matter how great it is. It needs to be
AJ Hannah: responsible, reflective and
AJ Hannah: resonant. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Where do you push these films shorts out? Is this
Joanne Lockwood: a YouTube or is it self hosted? Is it through independent cinemas
Joanne Lockwood: and things? Or a bit of everything? So with Poison Us,
AJ Hannah: we have several shorts that come out on TikTok, but the
AJ Hannah: actual pilot will come out on YouTube, but it'll come out on
AJ Hannah: YouTube after we do a separate screening
AJ Hannah: for the people in the Kickstarter that have
AJ Hannah: paid, you know, the $25 to be VIP or
AJ Hannah: we have. I think we're also debating right now
AJ Hannah: whether or not to do a physical screening
AJ Hannah: alongside. Like a. Alongside the early
AJ Hannah: screening. When it comes to Poison Us, the rest of the episodes
AJ Hannah: will come out on YouTube. And when it
AJ Hannah: comes to indie animation, it's kind of like you can
AJ Hannah: make a pilot or you can make an animation, but then if you end
AJ Hannah: up partnering with another company, like a production company
AJ Hannah: or a distribution company, then it has to be held until
AJ Hannah: they put it on whatever streaming platform it's going to be. We don't have that
AJ Hannah: issue right now with any of our
AJ Hannah: projects. So we get to decide when we're putting them out, which gives us
AJ Hannah: amount of time, whatever amount of time we need to finish it
AJ Hannah: or to make it so if somebody has.
AJ Hannah: Somebody has surgery or somebody needs a mental health break for a week, especially
AJ Hannah: like one of my animators or one of the cleanup artists. Okay, cool.
AJ Hannah: Like, if I can't get somebody else to jump in on that week to
AJ Hannah: fill in that piece that we need, that's fine. We will wait a week.
AJ Hannah: We have that luxury right now. And that's great because mental health is so important
AJ Hannah: to me and it's important to a lot of the people that work
AJ Hannah: with, you know, in this industry. It's easy to burn out and burn out
AJ Hannah: fast. So your route to monetization is through
Joanne Lockwood: sponsorship. Adverts, YouTube,
Joanne Lockwood: watch, revenue monetization on the channel. That is that. That's primarily
Joanne Lockwood: your. Your trAJectory to. To revenue generation.
AJ Hannah: Yeah. So we have. We have sponsorships. We actually just
AJ Hannah: about a month ago landed a sponsorship with Toon Boom, which is a
AJ Hannah: big animation software piece in
AJ Hannah: the field. Big player for 2D animation. So we have a
AJ Hannah: sponsorship from them. We also have
AJ Hannah: two other sponsorships right now. And
AJ Hannah: then we have the Kickstarter going on, which will fund the
AJ Hannah: mAJority of the pilot.
AJ Hannah: Ooh, your puppy. Puppy's
Joanne Lockwood: here. Puppy's here. She's getting. She's getting all
Joanne Lockwood: excited. She's playing with a nylon bone and she's
Joanne Lockwood: making her very excited. So, yeah, anyway, yeah, sorry,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, no. So we have several different
AJ Hannah: streams of revenue. So we have the sponsorships, we have
AJ Hannah: the Kickstarter, we will have
AJ Hannah: merch also, and we have whatever comes back to
AJ Hannah: us from the YouTube or TikTok, that
AJ Hannah: sort of thing. And we're. We're thinking about doing Patreon,
AJ Hannah: but that's not something that we've committed to yet.
Joanne Lockwood: So this is using sort of modern, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: sounds quite patronising, modern, young, younger ways of doing this.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, you're not looking traditional production, fundraising, going
Joanne Lockwood: to the usual suspects. This is community
Joanne Lockwood: sponsored and fed and the people are sponsoring. You are
Joanne Lockwood: predominantly interested in queer bipoc content, so that
Joanne Lockwood: you're accessing that market as well, right? Yeah. So we do
AJ Hannah: have. There's a couple of reasons for that. One is that our
AJ Hannah: topic and our. What we're producing is niche in the
AJ Hannah: idea of. This isn't what Disney would put on. This
AJ Hannah: isn't what necessarily Netflix would pick up
AJ Hannah: because it is. Because it is queer and it's bipoc
AJ Hannah: and it's right there. So unless we,
AJ Hannah: you know, negotiated some sort of control of, you know, content
AJ Hannah: and creative direction, that's. And that's probably not something that they would
AJ Hannah: take and want to give up those liberties. So there's the
AJ Hannah: reason for that. But the other reason is, yeah, we're community driven. We
AJ Hannah: are making things for our community by people in our community.
AJ Hannah: And that's what those people want to see
AJ Hannah: as well. So we're reaching out directly to them rather
AJ Hannah: than to a studio or, you know, financial
AJ Hannah: backers that, I don't know live in the clouds.
AJ Hannah: They don't live in the clouds, obviously, but they people that
AJ Hannah: we also don't have access to because a lot of us were in the
AJ Hannah: lower tiers of the echelons of Hollywood.
AJ Hannah: We never had access. There's no way to go up and be like, hey, look
AJ Hannah: at this script, look at this project that I have an idea for.
AJ Hannah: We never had access to that anyway. So we also don't have
AJ Hannah: the type of access to the financial that
AJ Hannah: I guess other creators would have. So we have to put our content.
AJ Hannah: We have to make our content and put it out first and say, hey, look,
AJ Hannah: this is what we have. This is what we love to do. This
AJ Hannah: is how good we are. And this is how many people want to see
AJ Hannah: it. And then maybe they'll be like, oh, hey,
AJ Hannah: do you want to also distribute that over here? Be like, oh,
AJ Hannah: sure, yeah, we can do that and distribution.
AJ Hannah: A lot of times you don't have to give up your creative direction for. So
AJ Hannah: that's excellent. So what's the genre
Joanne Lockwood: apart from queer and bipoc? Is there a style? Is it gay at
Joanne Lockwood: Disney? Is it a Pixar type or is it anime type or.
AJ Hannah: So we do 2D animation. We do 2D hand drawn
AJ Hannah: animation. If you know Boondocks how it had a little bit of that
AJ Hannah: anime feel, but it was still very American cartoon. That's kind
AJ Hannah: of where we land. It does have a little bit of that
AJ Hannah: animation anime feel to it, but
AJ Hannah: it is still very much an American cartoon. We
AJ Hannah: also have, yeah, Poison Us is an
AJ Hannah: adult dark comedy. But then we have the
AJ Hannah: manslaughter project, which is also supposed to be like a. But it's a thriller
AJ Hannah: comedy. And we have a book that came out,
AJ Hannah: which was a rom com kind of book
AJ Hannah: that came out earlier in Halloween. That's. We have all
AJ Hannah: kinds of. We're trying to. When it comes to genre, we're trying to
AJ Hannah: spread across. The next thing that we want to also work into
AJ Hannah: is comics and. But that's just, you know, time management.
Joanne Lockwood: So you say hand drawn, obviously computer hand drawn on
Joanne Lockwood: paper. You know, you're not drawing slope. It's hand drawn.
AJ Hannah: But yes, it's Computer. It's not like. It's not
AJ Hannah: like we're actually doing it on paper anymore. So is this frame by
Joanne Lockwood: frame animation hand drawn, or is this. Are you. Yeah,
AJ Hannah: 24 frames per second. Yeah, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. It's a. It's quite a. Quite a
AJ Hannah: mountain of time. But we have such a talented
AJ Hannah: crowd, group of people that every time when they come back
AJ Hannah: with pieces, I'm just like. I was just. I just showed my.
AJ Hannah: My character designer.
AJ Hannah: Why can I not remember the name for that? There's a technical word, there's a
AJ Hannah: fur. It's not character designer. Anyway, I
AJ Hannah: showed them the key art to one of the pieces of
AJ Hannah: animation that has come in recently and
AJ Hannah: they were like. And I was like, I know, it's amazing.
AJ Hannah: And that's just like for the opening scene, for the opening credits of
AJ Hannah: the show. Of the show. Poison Us. Anyway, so how long does it take to
Joanne Lockwood: generate each frame? So presumably you've got some stock foot, you've got some stock
Joanne Lockwood: animation that you layer on. You're just looking at the
Joanne Lockwood: specific character or their movement or what they're interacting with. But
Joanne Lockwood: everything else is a stock image. Is it? I presume
AJ Hannah: not for us. So we have. We have background artists
AJ Hannah: that draw in the backgrounds and we have, you know, our
AJ Hannah: colour person and our cleanup artist that does the colour.
AJ Hannah: We have. Every character is animated
AJ Hannah: by our rough animators and fine animators, like our. And our
AJ Hannah: character animators. So there's not any stock footage
AJ Hannah: right there. Every piece of art that's in there, even like
AJ Hannah: one of the girls has tarot cards. Even that has
AJ Hannah: been illustrated by one of our people. So it's
AJ Hannah: a. It's a labour of love. It takes a long time. It's that
AJ Hannah: fun, I guess, clip or gif that goes around where it's like, animation
AJ Hannah: takes a long time and it does. I don't expect
AJ Hannah: Poison Us to be out until
AJ Hannah: I'm shooting for, like, the worldwide premiere date
AJ Hannah: of Halloween of next year. Just because.
AJ Hannah: Yeah, I know. Just because we do have
AJ Hannah: storyboards down and we have the voice acting mostly down and
AJ Hannah: all of that. But then we still have to finish the
AJ Hannah: animation. We have to clean up the animation. There are going to be some
AJ Hannah: effects to it. We have original music
AJ Hannah: in it as well. So it's really. Yeah,
AJ Hannah: I mean, it's great. It's coming together, but it takes a
AJ Hannah: while to make sure that everything hits. And then
AJ Hannah: there's that whole thing that you have to do with marketing and run up and,
AJ Hannah: you know, that's like three months within Itself, even if
AJ Hannah: it's. Done, do the characters
Joanne Lockwood: get modified so they look a little bit like the voice actor? Because
Joanne Lockwood: I think about Jack Black or the Rock or things like this,
Joanne Lockwood: or Jason Momoa when they're playing. Jason Momoa is in the
Joanne Lockwood: Moana, isn't he? And his character looks a bit Jason
Joanne Lockwood: Momoa. Like, do you kind of blend that reality of the
Joanne Lockwood: person with the character? Or you have a character and you have the voice.
AJ Hannah: That's an interesting thought. So I have had people say
AJ Hannah: part of it is that, okay, so we had. We have a Filipino
AJ Hannah: character. She's played by a Filipino woman. So we have
AJ Hannah: a Latina character, she's played by a Latina woman. We have
AJ Hannah: a trans man, black character played by
AJ Hannah: a trans black person. You know, that
AJ Hannah: in a way, they sort of mirror each other or they look
AJ Hannah: like each other. But I feel like as the series goes on,
AJ Hannah: there's always tweaks in animation, and
AJ Hannah: I. I do feel like the characters will look more and more like their
AJ Hannah: people or the people will take on more and more of
AJ Hannah: their character. Um,
AJ Hannah: especially. I want to say especially Belladonna,
AJ Hannah: but we'll see. Belladonna is
AJ Hannah: a white redhead and she is a
AJ Hannah: nurse. But she's
AJ Hannah: also, from what I know of the voice actress, they're similar in
AJ Hannah: how. In their, like, studiousness, I suppose,
AJ Hannah: in the way that they approach the world.
AJ Hannah: And I feel like it's kind of like that thing where you name a baby
AJ Hannah: and it's like, is the baby reflective of the name or is the.
AJ Hannah: Did you name the baby that way because you already knew that the baby was
AJ Hannah: gonna be, you know, kind of like that? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I was wondering whether the voice actors themselves,
Joanne Lockwood: whether people fan over them, you know, sort of like they were following and,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I think Disney and other big animation studios now, they
Joanne Lockwood: pick the actor, voice actor as part of the
Joanne Lockwood: promo to get the publicity, get the credibility. There's.
Joanne Lockwood: I guess you want their acting skills as well. Whereas you go back 20 or
Joanne Lockwood: 30 years, did you really care who the voice actor was if it was animated?
Joanne Lockwood: You didn't really think about it at all. Whereas now the voice actor is
Joanne Lockwood: a critical part of the marketing of the movie. So presumably
Joanne Lockwood: your voice actors, when they become part of the queer
Joanne Lockwood: bipoc community, they're going to be known and people are going to follow them.
Joanne Lockwood: They'll want the merch. You said they'll ought to be associated with that one,
Joanne Lockwood: though. Vinvox, who does Oleander. They
AJ Hannah: actually do a lot of other indie stuff and they do a lot of other
AJ Hannah: queer indie stuff, so they're a person for sure
AJ Hannah: to follow. I always see them everywhere. To me,
AJ Hannah: they're going to be like the next Michael Kovach,
AJ Hannah: like the next. But like. Or they're already
AJ Hannah: that way in, like the queer sphere, you know, I don't know if you know
AJ Hannah: what I'm saying. They're. Do you know Michael Kovac
AJ Hannah: name Isabelle? He does. He's Jax
AJ Hannah: in. And I don't know, I always say Kovach, but it's not Kovach. It's
AJ Hannah: like Kovac or whatever. He does Jax in the Digital.
AJ Hannah: The amazing Digital Circus. He voiced Angel Dust in the
AJ Hannah: pilot of Hazbin Hotel. He voices one of the main
AJ Hannah: characters in another. And like another big indie thing
AJ Hannah: that's coming out Lackadaisy. So he's. He's
AJ Hannah: a big indie voice actor right now. Vinvox to me
AJ Hannah: is kind of like that. They're in
AJ Hannah: a bunch of stuff and I. When we're in
AJ Hannah: different. When I'm popping around through different indie
AJ Hannah: spheres or indie, like the communication channels when I'm
AJ Hannah: on. I'm gonna call it Twitter. When they're. When I'm on Twitter or Blue sky
AJ Hannah: or any of that, I see them there a lot
AJ Hannah: in the projects for those upcoming things, for those upcoming pilots
AJ Hannah: or the indie work. And they're just. They go.
AJ Hannah: They're like a machine with how much they audition and put out.
AJ Hannah: So, yeah, they're going to be up there in one of these
AJ Hannah: days and I'm going to be like, ha, ha. You talked about. We talked about
Joanne Lockwood: funding and how you raise capital for these projects. Is
Joanne Lockwood: there a kind of like an umbrella funder so that people want to get
Joanne Lockwood: involved? They could sort of fund a funding organisation who then
Joanne Lockwood: hands out money as needed. We can bid for money
Joanne Lockwood: for your project or do people invest direct for indie
Joanne Lockwood: projects? As far as I know, people invest directly into the
AJ Hannah: indie project, whether that's through the indie projects
AJ Hannah: Patreon or that's through purchasing the Merch or, for example,
AJ Hannah: our stuff. Um, we have the Kickstarter open
AJ Hannah: a lot of those. Lackadaisy, which was another indie project,
AJ Hannah: did a Kickstarter for their pilot and for their first couple of episodes.
AJ Hannah: And that's where if you wanted to fund them, you would go
AJ Hannah: directly to, I guess, them and fund it. But that's a. I mean, that's
AJ Hannah: a good idea. I don't know of anybody that actually takes in the,
AJ Hannah: hey, we. We want to, you know, we want to fund indie Animation, especially
AJ Hannah: queer indie animation or we want to fund indie, you know,
AJ Hannah: media in the queer and, you know, people of colour
AJ Hannah: sphere. I want to give you the money and then you can distribute it. That's
AJ Hannah: a great idea. I don't know anybody that, that does that. Wish I
AJ Hannah: did. You want some sort of philanthropist, don't you, as a, a huge
Joanne Lockwood: bundle of cash somewhere who you can embid
Joanne Lockwood: to for your project. You want, I don't know, hundred thousand
Joanne Lockwood: dollars or something? Absolutely. I tell people all of
AJ Hannah: the time if I didn't have to do any of the fundraising,
AJ Hannah: that would be amazing. Like if I had some
AJ Hannah: extroverted clone of me that wanted to go
AJ Hannah: schmooze and talk to people and, you know, bring back
AJ Hannah: the sponsorships or the deals or the indie animation.
AJ Hannah: Amazing. Because I'm an introvert at heart. I'm a behind the camera
AJ Hannah: person. I absolutely, absolutely like
AJ Hannah: abhor going out and having to do this, but I do it
AJ Hannah: because I believe in the cause. So
Joanne Lockwood: you said. Yeah, you said Poison Is what, 15 minutes
Joanne Lockwood: thereabouts? Is that right? So what does 15
Joanne Lockwood: minutes of poison Us take in terms of funding? You know,
Joanne Lockwood: obviously don't have to give me your exact figures, but just. Are we talking
Joanne Lockwood: a hundred thousand dollars? We're talking $200,000, we're talking a million dollars.
Joanne Lockwood: What do we talk about that? That's a great, that's a great question we have
AJ Hannah: right now. We could do it in about
AJ Hannah: $50,000, but that wouldn't pay people what I
AJ Hannah: want to pay people. So I would
AJ Hannah: love to get $90,000 for the Kickstarter so that
AJ Hannah: I can pay people living wages.
AJ Hannah: And again, that's not me taking any money, that's them, you know, me paying people
AJ Hannah: to take money to do this work
AJ Hannah: so that they can get living wages. When it comes
AJ Hannah: to, you know, and union. Union,
AJ Hannah: I guess, wages when it comes to doing this sort of work.
AJ Hannah: That would be about $90,000 for an episode.
AJ Hannah: Yeah, but we're gonna, if we have to,
AJ Hannah: we'll squeeze it through there. So what was going through my mind
Joanne Lockwood: was it's not a lot, but it is when you're trying to, when you're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to get it, get the cash in. Especially when you're
Joanne Lockwood: niche, you haven't got big budgets and big, big marketing
Joanne Lockwood: departments. You say you're doing it all yourself. You're a little introvert sat there in
Joanne Lockwood: your studio begging for money, which is not your forte.
AJ Hannah: No, you know, I'm actually one of those people that I can't Even I've been
AJ Hannah: in instances where I needed to hitchhike. I can't even
AJ Hannah: work up the courage to stick my thumb out on the highway. I would
AJ Hannah: rather end up walking 10 miles than ask for help.
AJ Hannah: And, and so this is a whole new
AJ Hannah: world that I'm going into because I want, you know, I want these
AJ Hannah: people to see their passions come to life. I
AJ Hannah: want these people to be paid and they should be paid what they're worth.
AJ Hannah: And I'd love to do that. I'm just, you know, I
AJ Hannah: don't come from a tonne of wealth
AJ Hannah: was born. I'm the first in my family to go to college, to graduate
AJ Hannah: college, I should say, you know,
AJ Hannah: I don't know that I'm the first to like be out, you know, out as
AJ Hannah: a queer person. But I
AJ Hannah: grew up in upper middle class, but I
AJ Hannah: grew up in a way that was like house poor,
AJ Hannah: I guess. So we have a, we have a
AJ Hannah: nice big home kind of that I grew up in
AJ Hannah: that districted to a nice school district so that I could get the education.
AJ Hannah: My dad's originally from West Virginia. He basically finished
AJ Hannah: his high school education and went straight into a union
AJ Hannah: job. And as a, you know, black American with a high
AJ Hannah: school education in order to get into upper middle class, that was a
AJ Hannah: big thing. So yeah, that's not. If I had the
AJ Hannah: money, if, you know, if my dad was able to donate a million dollars to
AJ Hannah: start my, you know, whatever, that would be great. But
AJ Hannah: that's not how it is. You know, we're here and
AJ Hannah: this is, I've got to do it myself. And that is
AJ Hannah: perfectly fine. Love doing things by myself.
Joanne Lockwood: So how did you get into this? Is this something you went, you picked up
Joanne Lockwood: at school, college, university, or did you get a. You've had a
Joanne Lockwood: career first and you then said, hang on a minute, I want to jump out
Joanne Lockwood: of that corporate BS and start my own thing. What, what kind of.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you, how do you set the studio up? Got you into it? I
AJ Hannah: wish, you know, part of me wishes that, yeah, I had that corporate thing that
AJ Hannah: I could, you know, fall back on. But no, I, I was a
AJ Hannah: journalist for about a decade and then journalism really started
AJ Hannah: to. I mean, it was already a dying industry when I went into it as
AJ Hannah: an 18 year old who didn't know that I shouldn't be taking out all those
AJ Hannah: student loans for journalism. But I did that
AJ Hannah: for about a decade and for a couple of years you could see the
AJ Hannah: writing on the wall. And I tried to get out, I tried
AJ Hannah: to pivot I tried to, you know, look for something else, but it
AJ Hannah: just wasn't happening. And I actually did
AJ Hannah: whole, I think segment on the podcast,
AJ Hannah: this queer book saved my life or something like that about
AJ Hannah: how I ended up reading
AJ Hannah: a storey about two Sapphic women
AJ Hannah: who not only fell in love, but there was also like
AJ Hannah: this otherworldly mystery that was going on.
AJ Hannah: And I was like, oh,
AJ Hannah: this can be mainstream. And so I was like, well, why
AJ Hannah: aren't there more storeys like this? Where can I find more storeys like
AJ Hannah: this? And one of the, one of the Sapphic women was a person of colour
AJ Hannah: too. So it was like, it was just hitting all the notes for me. It
AJ Hannah: wasn't just like a coming out storey or like a first love storey or a
AJ Hannah: rom com. It was like this thing that had a little bit of
AJ Hannah: like sci fi mystery to it. It had, you know, a
AJ Hannah: person of colour as a main character. It had, you know,
AJ Hannah: adult overtures. It wasn't just like a high school, you know,
AJ Hannah: storey. So I tried to look for more of those storeys
AJ Hannah: and I, and I found a few, but they're so hard to find. And
AJ Hannah: there were mostly indie creators and
AJ Hannah: I had had some connections in the industry before
AJ Hannah: the whole journalism collapse and I had
AJ Hannah: always wanted to get back to creative writing. So I was like, you know what?
AJ Hannah: And then all those DEI shut offs were happening and layoffs and stuff in the
AJ Hannah: animation industry and I was like, okay, well
AJ Hannah: if nobody else is going to do this, we're going to do this. Let's do
AJ Hannah: this. Let's come together and start making stuff and
AJ Hannah: actually put it out there for people that want it and need
AJ Hannah: it and we don't have to. Let's stop
AJ Hannah: trying to pitch to people that aren't going to listen to us anyway.
AJ Hannah: So yeah, that's, that's kind of the long and short of how I ended up
AJ Hannah: here. So you mentioned the layoffs, the dei,
Joanne Lockwood: the political climate. In passing there. We're living in a, I hate this
Joanne Lockwood: word, unprecedented. Everything's become bloody unprecedented, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: But the world as we know it has been kind of kicked into the orbit
Joanne Lockwood: at the moment. What's going on? The pushback against dei, the pushback against
Joanne Lockwood: what we thought was progressive moves to be a more inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: culture, society, workplace now seems to be kind of
Joanne Lockwood: fighting against right wing extremism, doesn't it? And
Joanne Lockwood: are you fearing that within what you're doing? I mean, it's precedented in
AJ Hannah: the way of like Nazis, but to be, you know, quite
AJ Hannah: honest, yeah, in Is there ways that I fear it?
AJ Hannah: Sure. My. Even back in, when I was a journalist, still my face was
AJ Hannah: put on a white supremacist website for what I write about.
AJ Hannah: Know that we're not going to get certain funding and I know that we're going
AJ Hannah: to get blowback from people in the right wing. That's if we ever get
AJ Hannah: popular enough to be seen by them as pushing an agenda.
AJ Hannah: But that's not. What else am I going to do? Compromise my morals? What
AJ Hannah: else am I going to do? Pretend to be someone that I'm not? They already
AJ Hannah: know. They, the big. They already know who I
AJ Hannah: am. I'm already I. For a lot of us, we have nothing else to
AJ Hannah: lose. We lost our jobs, you know, we, we
AJ Hannah: lost our source of income. We are struggling against
AJ Hannah: places that aren't going to hire us because of the names that we have
AJ Hannah: on the application or because we are born
AJ Hannah: female or because, you know, we're
AJ Hannah: people of colour or because, you know, a Google search will
AJ Hannah: show you that this person is queer. We're already
AJ Hannah: there. So what's to stop us? I
AJ Hannah: mean, is the smart thing to
AJ Hannah: lay a bit low? I suppose, but
AJ Hannah: laying low is not helping in a way, I guess, like
AJ Hannah: we're not, we're not making that sort of
AJ Hannah: healthy impact on our own life. We touched on it right at the beginning
Joanne Lockwood: of this. Who are we doing this for? Who are you doing this for? You're
Joanne Lockwood: doing it for the queer community, for the bipoc community. You're doing it for people
Joanne Lockwood: who look up to you as people, who are representing them
Joanne Lockwood: and having a voice and giving them hope. I think if you lay
Joanne Lockwood: low, what you're doing is you're
Joanne Lockwood: copping out, you're doing what corporates do all the time. They
Joanne Lockwood: say it's just too difficult, we'll step away from it. And I
Joanne Lockwood: don't think we, and I say we, as in marginalised communities,
Joanne Lockwood: we have a responsibility to say, hang on a minute, I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: going to lay low, I'm not going to hide. I'm here whether
Joanne Lockwood: you like me or not. In fact, the more I'm distasteful to you, the
Joanne Lockwood: more I'm going to make myself in your face because I
Joanne Lockwood: want to remind you that I'm not going to go away. And I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: the world we're in at the moment, isn't it? Try and repress us, try and
Joanne Lockwood: oppress us, try and shut us down, but we've got
Joanne Lockwood: to keep existing just to be
Joanne Lockwood: unpalatable to the people who don't. Like us, I guess.
AJ Hannah: So there's. I have two thoughts on that. One is that Michelangelo
AJ Hannah: painted the Sistine Chapel and he wasn't necessarily religious, Right.
AJ Hannah: But he painted this religious, beautiful piece of art
AJ Hannah: that is recognised now. And so
AJ Hannah: it's. I have the thought of how can we be
AJ Hannah: subversive or kind of, how can we
AJ Hannah: be there and very much still be loud and
AJ Hannah: showy, but also like just under their
AJ Hannah: nose enough to where we're
AJ Hannah: able to paint on their ceiling? And then they
AJ Hannah: come back and they don't realise it at first because of all of the
AJ Hannah: prejudice that they have in their hearts. And it's not until years later
AJ Hannah: that they realise, oh, this beautiful piece of art
AJ Hannah: was made by like this little gremlin of a person.
AJ Hannah: But so I. I have two thoughts. Yes. And I never.
AJ Hannah: I don't do things for people. I've been told in the past that people
AJ Hannah: look up to me for stuff and I don't necessarily do things
AJ Hannah: for people, for other people. I don't know if that's the autism in me
AJ Hannah: or if that's just the. Hey,
AJ Hannah: I don't have the time to process other people thinking about
AJ Hannah: me in any sort of capacity.
Joanne Lockwood: Nobody sets out to be a role model, do they? Nobody sets out to be
Joanne Lockwood: a people's champion. People will accuse you of it and you go,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, if you think I'm a role model or other people's champion, thank you, I
Joanne Lockwood: appreciate the. But I don't do it for that. No.
AJ Hannah: So I. It's more of the play in their face,
AJ Hannah: like, okay, you're gonna lay us off. Okay. You're going to not give
AJ Hannah: us jobs, Fine. Okay, you're not going to put
AJ Hannah: our characters in front of the audience.
AJ Hannah: Fine, we'll do it ourselves. We'll do it.
AJ Hannah: We'll build it and make it and put it out there. And just because
AJ Hannah: you don't want it doesn't mean it's not going to be out there. Doesn't mean
AJ Hannah: it's not going to not be made, doesn't mean it's not going to not exist.
AJ Hannah: It's still going to exist. That is, I
AJ Hannah: guess, where I come from in the whole.
AJ Hannah: Yeah, let's. For what purpose do I do this? If that makes sense.
Joanne Lockwood: Presumably, I look at why I do what I do sometimes and I use. Probably
Joanne Lockwood: use the word hope. You don't buy a lottery ticket expecting to win the lottery,
Joanne Lockwood: but if you buy a lottery ticket, at least you've got some hope you've got
Joanne Lockwood: a Dream. You can pretend you think, oh, if I won, what would I spend
Joanne Lockwood: the money on? So people don't buy lottery tickets. If anything other than a dream
Joanne Lockwood: or a hope. And I think I could be repressed by
Joanne Lockwood: society. I could have people telling me I'm not good enough. I'm this, I'm that.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm a Byron. All the things people say about queer trans people, whatever,
Joanne Lockwood: and I could just be downtrodden by it, or I could say, actually,
Joanne Lockwood: I want to have power. I want to have agency. I want to reclaim that.
Joanne Lockwood: I want to be part of a wider community. I want to be in the
Joanne Lockwood: middle of that, because that gives me hope. It makes me believe that I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: alone. It makes me believe I'm part of something bigger. So I think that's why
Joanne Lockwood: I do. What I do is to be part of something bigger than me, so
Joanne Lockwood: I get hope. And I can. By helping others.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't worry about helping me anymore because I'm part of
Joanne Lockwood: everybody. And I think that's why I do what I do, and that's why I
Joanne Lockwood: won't stop doing what I do, because it gives me a purpose
Joanne Lockwood: in life to do something. That's a good reason. It's
AJ Hannah: good to have a purpose, I guess. Like, it's good
AJ Hannah: to have a purpose and to have a reason and to. And to give people
AJ Hannah: hope. And that's very positive. I
AJ Hannah: do things on the opposite spectrum. I do them
AJ Hannah: for chaos and vindication
AJ Hannah: and, you know, that sort of troublemaking. Yeah, good
Joanne Lockwood: trouble. Good trouble. You tell me it's wrong. You tell me I can't do this.
AJ Hannah: Fine, I'll do it. Like I don't care. Fuck you.
AJ Hannah: Yeah, that kind of. All right. Fuck you. We'll do it.
AJ Hannah: You're not gonna stop me from doing it. Part of that comes from a lot
AJ Hannah: of people of colour. Queer people of colour especially. We realise early on
AJ Hannah: you gotta be twice as good to get half as far just because of
AJ Hannah: the way that you look. So as a. As a person of colour.
AJ Hannah: So then once you add in, like a. As a queer person of colour, as
AJ Hannah: a trans person of colour, it's like, fuck it. Like, we're
AJ Hannah: gonna. We already know we gotta work hard for anything. So you're already
AJ Hannah: gonna tell me I can't have it. So I'm not gonna. Like.
AJ Hannah: Doesn't necessarily mean I actually can't have it. It just means you're gonna tell me
AJ Hannah: I can't have it, and then I just gotta work twice as hard to prove
AJ Hannah: that I can. Do it. So what's it matter? But the secret is you
Joanne Lockwood: don't want. Don't want them to have it anyway. You don't want what they have.
Joanne Lockwood: You don't. You don't. You don't want it on their rules. That's what you're doing,
Joanne Lockwood: what you're doing because you wanna create your own rules, create your own platform, create
Joanne Lockwood: your own audience. It's that sense of justice, like what is right
AJ Hannah: and what needs to be right and what should be right.
AJ Hannah: Everybody should be equal. Everybody should get an opportunity. Everybody should have
AJ Hannah: this. If they have this potential, they should be able to show it. It's
AJ Hannah: that need for justice. It's that need to be able to dance
AJ Hannah: on the graves of your enemies. Like, that's why
AJ Hannah: I do things. I continue to live for spite. I
AJ Hannah: continue to be me for spite, you know, for hope. And that's. It's,
AJ Hannah: it's great to have hope because you need to have the dichotomy. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: well, I know that I. People off just by existing,
Joanne Lockwood: just by speaking, just by being. Being in spaces. I. I upset people. I know
Joanne Lockwood: there's people in the room who look at me with their. Down their nose going,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, you're not normal. It's like. I go, hell, yeah. Hell yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Good. Is it sometimes intimidating? Yeah, absolutely.
AJ Hannah: Do I always. There have been times when I've
AJ Hannah: wished I don't look the way that I do.
AJ Hannah: Not because, like, I don't like who I am, but just because I don't
AJ Hannah: like the attention. But it's never actually stopped me from doing
AJ Hannah: anything. So. Can I unpack that a bit? You say you don't
Joanne Lockwood: like the way you look, or you just look like a young
Joanne Lockwood: person of colour. Queer person. I mean, you didn't look queer. You just looked
Joanne Lockwood: like a young. A young. Yeah. Well, and that's the, that's the thing
AJ Hannah: is like. Okay, so as a person of colour, you already
AJ Hannah: stand out sometimes. Going into a classroom or
AJ Hannah: going into a business or going into, like a boardroom.
AJ Hannah: You're already kind of standing out as a person of colour because that's not,
AJ Hannah: you know, that's not what. I don't know.
AJ Hannah: You just. You, you are. You get that. That blowback sometimes, or you get that,
AJ Hannah: you know, second glance. And then for the longest time, like
AJ Hannah: right now, I don't have it on, but for the longest time, I
AJ Hannah: couldn't wear a binder because even wearing a binder,
AJ Hannah: I still had it. Just made it look like I
AJ Hannah: had a sports bra on. I'm Non binary. I'm gender fluid.
AJ Hannah: So. So, you know, I do a lot of she her. That's the way I
AJ Hannah: grew up. But there were so many times, especially post
AJ Hannah: having kids where I was like, I
AJ Hannah: am not a she her. Especially today. But I couldn't, I
AJ Hannah: couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't wear a binder. I couldn't, you know, or
AJ Hannah: I could, but it just didn't, it didn't give me that whatever
AJ Hannah: sense of who I am.
AJ Hannah: And I got top surgery. So now
AJ Hannah: I'm able to be femme
AJ Hannah: when I want to or feminine presenting when I want to, and I'm able to
AJ Hannah: be masculine presenting when I want to. They took five pounds
AJ Hannah: off the top. Five pounds. And I still have
AJ Hannah: a significant, you know, thing here. So
AJ Hannah: that's. But it was quite something. So you had,
Joanne Lockwood: you were well endowed up top. Yeah. So I
AJ Hannah: haven't always felt that I look the way that I should.
AJ Hannah: And I haven't necessarily always liked the attention,
AJ Hannah: whether it was because, hey, you're a black person in this
AJ Hannah: upper middle class boardroom or you're a black person in
AJ Hannah: this, you know, advanced placement class, or
AJ Hannah: you're a. Clearly you're a woman
AJ Hannah: doing this very masculine thing. I guess in those
AJ Hannah: ways, if that makes, if that does a little bit,
AJ Hannah: digs into my treasure box. Yeah. I mean, I have
Joanne Lockwood: a experience. I walk into rooms of several hundred
Joanne Lockwood: people. I got on stage, speak to people, 600 people in the audience.
Joanne Lockwood: Statistically, there will be other trans or gender diverse people in the room,
Joanne Lockwood: but often I'm the exception. You know, I get
Joanne Lockwood: on a bus, I get on a train. Generally I'm the only trans woman in
Joanne Lockwood: my immediate, visible, immediate, immediate circle there.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm used to walking into places, being the old one
Joanne Lockwood: out, or people look at me and go, what's your name? And you say,
Joanne Lockwood: and they say, yeah, it's Joanne. Yeah, Joanne.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay. They're kind of querying it or they hear the voice and not
Joanne Lockwood: sure. I've kind of got, I don't know, over the last 10,
Joanne Lockwood: 12 years, I've been. I kind of got used to it and
Joanne Lockwood: I don't even think about it anymore. I don't know, just maybe I'm privileged that
Joanne Lockwood: I can not think about it. But yeah, I get away with it.
Joanne Lockwood: And people don't say anything if they do
Joanne Lockwood: Them. Them. Yeah, no, I still get that sometimes. I'll get
AJ Hannah: that liberated feeling when they go, oh, thank you, sir. And
AJ Hannah: I'm like, yes, yes. Like, yes. Especially if, like,
AJ Hannah: I'm checking out at a grocery store or something like that. And I'm having a
AJ Hannah: very masculine day and I'm, you know, have a binder on and I'm dressed in
AJ Hannah: baggier clothes and I have my beanie and stuff like that. I'm like,
AJ Hannah: yes, like that's. Or when they do that very long
AJ Hannah: pause. For me as somebody that's like non binary or
AJ Hannah: gender fluid. Awesome. You don't know what I am. Great. Love it. Because I don't
AJ Hannah: know what I am half the time either. Ha ha. That's the whole point. I
AJ Hannah: think that that goes along with that autism thing of like, we just like to.
AJ Hannah: We don't think about ourselves a lot as like,
AJ Hannah: people, so as people with like physical
AJ Hannah: stationary planes of being. So it's like,
AJ Hannah: okay, you want me to determine if I'm a boy or a girl today?
AJ Hannah: That's like, can I just not be me, the creature that I am?
AJ Hannah: But yeah, no. But then there's the. There are some days
AJ Hannah: where I guess maybe one day I'll
AJ Hannah: have the less thought about walking into a room
AJ Hannah: and seeing who I am being reflected on people's
AJ Hannah: faces. But I'm still very much
AJ Hannah: in that young portion of thinking about what other people
AJ Hannah: think about me, and I hate doing that. I
AJ Hannah: try not to do that. At least thinking about what other
AJ Hannah: people think about me in the physical sense of my being.
AJ Hannah: That's something that like, comes up often enough because I have
AJ Hannah: to, you know, you have to think about physical safety and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Joanne Lockwood: Most people are more worried about themselves than they are about other people even notice
Joanne Lockwood: you most of the time. Yeah, no, that's. That's true.
AJ Hannah: And I. I'm also one of those people that can be a little bit.
AJ Hannah: I have two kids. I have two younger kids. So I
AJ Hannah: have found that I will step in front of them more
AJ Hannah: to protect them and not care as much
AJ Hannah: about my physical body as theirs. But then again,
AJ Hannah: I didn't always think about my physical body that much.
AJ Hannah: So it's one of those weird moments where it's like I know their. I don't
AJ Hannah: want their physical body to be harmed, but like,
AJ Hannah: forgetting that I have one that can also be.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I don't know if it's. I've. I've kind of reached this
Joanne Lockwood: sort of plateau of existence where
Joanne Lockwood: I don't think about, yay, I'm a woman. Yay, I'm this. Yay, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: that. Which is, I think, what Cis people feel. They don't have any kind of.
Joanne Lockwood: They don't get up and go, yeah, I'm a bloke today. Oh, yeah, I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: woman. Great idea. Yeah. They just are. And I think I've found this
Joanne Lockwood: plane of existence where I don't wake up thinking, yay, I'm a woman, or anything
Joanne Lockwood: like this. I just wake up being me. But I still get. I still get
Joanne Lockwood: queer joy, or trans joy, by someone saying, mind this lady,
Joanne Lockwood: she's coming, you know, or mind this lady with her puppy or something like this.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, people are talking about me and I. Oh, yes. So those,
Joanne Lockwood: Those micro validations you get are
Joanne Lockwood: brilliant. But apart from that, I guess I'd be pissed off if they
Joanne Lockwood: said, mind this man or mind this bloke or something.
Joanne Lockwood: I probably would get upset. But no, I. There's little moments of
Joanne Lockwood: joy where people get it right without. Without prompting. And I'm. I'm not feeling
Joanne Lockwood: particularly glamorous at that moment. I'm just wearing my hoodie or
Joanne Lockwood: my wear. Wear a pair of jeans and I think, oh, life's good,
Joanne Lockwood: life's good. But take in the joy and let everything else wash over you.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that's right, it is. And it's. I think you get too hung
Joanne Lockwood: up on worrying about what other people think of you because you start to
Joanne Lockwood: realise that they don't. They don't think about you, they think about themselves or
Joanne Lockwood: they're rushing for something. The example I often use is if you've
Joanne Lockwood: got a photograph, like a family photograph with a wedding or something, and
Joanne Lockwood: there's 20 people in it, you hand the photograph around. Nobody
Joanne Lockwood: looks at anybody in that photograph apart from themselves. Everyone, oh, I've got my
Joanne Lockwood: eyes closed. I don't like my glasses in that one. Or they're standing like that
Joanne Lockwood: and you won't notice anything about them because you're too busy looking about you and
Joanne Lockwood: say, people just. People care about themselves. People will always look for
Joanne Lockwood: themselves in a photograph. They'll always worry about themselves in public and they're
Joanne Lockwood: too busy getting on their life. And I realised that and I think,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, all I gotta do is just get on with my life. They'll get on
Joanne Lockwood: with theirs. If I don't interact at that moment, we'll probably
Joanne Lockwood: never interact again in our lives. So it doesn't matter. True.
AJ Hannah: Very true. It's like that high school thing. Not everybody's looking at you.
AJ Hannah: Don't worry about it. Nobody cares. They're worried about themselves. They're worried about
Joanne Lockwood: themselves. When you realise that, life becomes much simpler if you just
Joanne Lockwood: worry about yourself and don't worry about what other people think of it. Worry about
AJ Hannah: yourself. Yeah. Because they're not thinking about you.
Joanne Lockwood: They don't care unless you tell them to care. Unless you show that you care.
AJ Hannah: Unless you show that it's like a weakness or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. Then they can turn that against you or whatever thing. But
Joanne Lockwood: generally it's their own insecurity that's coming out, not you.
AJ Hannah: True. Yeah. But I've turned 60, so I guess
Joanne Lockwood: I'm. I've had a lot of life and a lot of experience that I've learned
Joanne Lockwood: these lessons. And if you're younger, you're still trying to figure yourself out,
Joanne Lockwood: still trying to fight your way in the world, then I guess these
Joanne Lockwood: challenges are real. I'll get there. I'll get there one day.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. When you're a fantastic queer
Joanne Lockwood: studio, Gay Disney celebrated the world over
Joanne Lockwood: with revenue coming in and people looking to fund you, and you'll be sat there
Joanne Lockwood: going, I made it. It got there in the end. And now giving
Joanne Lockwood: everyone the finger if they're not interested. Yeah. All my
AJ Hannah: wrinkles don't matter. The way that I look in my physical body doesn't matter.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Elevate yourself to Whoopi Goldberg status, won't you, where you'll be kind of like
Joanne Lockwood: this really celebrated person that. Who doesn't give. Who
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't give a flying fuck about anybody else because they've made it,
Joanne Lockwood: and that's. That's where you're going to be. You're going to. You're going to be
Joanne Lockwood: celebrated. True. You just got to project
AJ Hannah: confidence, I guess. Project confidence. Just. Yeah, just go for
Joanne Lockwood: it. Go for it, A.J. we've had a fantastic hour. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I feel like I just carry on chatting to you, and it's a shame you're
Joanne Lockwood: so far away, because I'd love to drop in for a coffee one day
Joanne Lockwood: and see the studio, but. Yeah, no, it's been lovely talking to you,
Joanne Lockwood: and I'm glad we got this reschedule. And our little
Joanne Lockwood: puppy made an appearance halfway through just to say hello, which is good. It was
Joanne Lockwood: nice to meet you. Yeah. Our first podcast. So
Joanne Lockwood: many of my other episodes, I've had other people's dogs joining the show, and this
Joanne Lockwood: is the first time I've had my own puppy joining in
Joanne Lockwood: my podcast. So. Yeah, that's right. I don't know where
Joanne Lockwood: she is now. I think she's fallen asleep somewhere. So she's. Puppies needs lots of
AJ Hannah: rest. Puppies need. Not so. Well. I need to take her out for a walk.
Joanne Lockwood: Now it's just about turned get dark so I need to put my head torch
Joanne Lockwood: on and get out there and take her for a walk. Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you so much. It's been amazing. Thank you. It was great talking with you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion
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Joanne Lockwood: Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all
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Joanne Lockwood: lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and
Joanne Lockwood: let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one
Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.