WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to joe.lockwoodeechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.630 --> 00:01:18.910 And today is episode 195 19 00:01:19.970 --> 00:01:23.970 with the title Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging. 20 00:01:24.610 --> 00:01:28.490 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Amanda 21 00:01:28.490 --> 00:01:32.210 Van der Heyden. Amanda is a Chaos coordinator 22 00:01:32.530 --> 00:01:36.290 and a relationship builder with over 20 years experience 23 00:01:36.290 --> 00:01:40.170 in L and D, leading global rollouts for 24 00:01:40.170 --> 00:01:44.130 over 40 companies across 15 countries, spread 25 00:01:44.130 --> 00:01:47.940 over 12 different industries, and of 26 00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:51.340 course, empowering teams through People first solutions. 27 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:55.780 And when I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it is 28 00:01:55.780 --> 00:01:59.260 translating complexity into people centred 29 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:03.220 momentum. That all sounds fascinating. I say hello, Amanda, welcome to 30 00:02:03.220 --> 00:02:06.220 the show. Thank you for having me. So your name, 31 00:02:07.020 --> 00:02:10.980 it says to me Dutch. So you have some Dutch heritage in 32 00:02:10.980 --> 00:02:14.900 you? Yep, my dad is from the Netherlands. His whole family is still there. 33 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:18.340 He's the only one in the States. Wow. So you're. You're now in the States 34 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:22.100 yourself? Yeah, Yep. Did you say New 35 00:02:22.100 --> 00:02:26.020 York or thereabouts. So in real life, I'm a New Yorker currently living 36 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:29.860 in Rhode Island. Very random. So it's been fun journey. So for 37 00:02:29.860 --> 00:02:33.340 someone who doesn't know the geography of the States too well, I mean, that's me. 38 00:02:33.980 --> 00:02:37.950 So Rhode island is on the east coast. Still isn't is so 39 00:02:37.950 --> 00:02:41.470 with COVID and all the moving and fun stuff that happened, I used to be 40 00:02:41.470 --> 00:02:45.470 about an hour from Manhattan and then I moved down to Kentucky, which 41 00:02:45.470 --> 00:02:49.270 is like the Middle west, very drastically different world. 42 00:02:49.350 --> 00:02:52.950 And then all the way up to the tippy top point on the east side 43 00:02:53.350 --> 00:02:57.230 of little tiny Rhode island, so. So above you 44 00:02:57.230 --> 00:03:01.230 is Canada, is that? Yes, basically. Basically not too far away. If 45 00:03:01.230 --> 00:03:04.910 you had asked a couple years ago, Rhode Island, I'd say, what's in Rhode Island? 46 00:03:04.910 --> 00:03:08.470 But just one of those things. Life takes you to new 47 00:03:08.470 --> 00:03:12.390 places and the People are really nice here, so I love it. But I definitely 48 00:03:12.390 --> 00:03:14.670 am missing the food from New York, that is for sure. 49 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:19.670 Yeah, I was, I've been in New York probably three or four times. I, I 50 00:03:19.670 --> 00:03:22.510 worked over there and had a bit of a holiday there once. And you're right, 51 00:03:22.510 --> 00:03:26.350 there's. On every street corner there's, there's something else. Yeah, you've got the 52 00:03:26.590 --> 00:03:30.330 left Liftly, you got all those sort of places, you've got all the different 53 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:34.290 zones and things. Whatever you want. And it's a bit 54 00:03:34.290 --> 00:03:37.930 like London I guess. You can. Whenever you want, whatever time of the day you 55 00:03:37.930 --> 00:03:41.330 want, whatever time of year you want, you can find whatever you like. 56 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:45.570 Yeah. If you can't, they'll deliver it somewhere. Yeah, yeah, it's 57 00:03:45.570 --> 00:03:49.490 great melting pot. So the climate must be a 58 00:03:49.490 --> 00:03:53.370 bit cooler up in Rhode island. Does it? Yeah, it's off the water, so 59 00:03:53.370 --> 00:03:57.210 it's, you know, northeast definitely right now it's really pretty. This is the right 60 00:03:57.210 --> 00:04:01.010 time of year. But it has both extremes, the heat in August and 61 00:04:01.010 --> 00:04:04.890 the freezing cold in the winter. So we definitely get the 62 00:04:04.890 --> 00:04:08.890 seasons here. What's the nickname of the state then? What's it, 63 00:04:08.890 --> 00:04:12.330 what is it? It's not Sunshine State. What is it? Quiz me. That's 64 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:16.170 California. Rhode island is the Ocean State because it's basically a tiny 65 00:04:16.170 --> 00:04:20.130 little island in the, in the. So it's completely an island. So you 66 00:04:20.130 --> 00:04:23.880 have a bridge over the top, do you? There's bridges everywhere, 67 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:26.680 there's. And the funny thing I've learned, so I've only been here about a year 68 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.080 and a half and the fun part is, is that locals like local Rhode island 69 00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:34.000 people will be like, wow, you cross two bridges to be here. And I'm like, 70 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.920 the bridges are like every five, 10 minutes. But apparently when you 71 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:41.800 have a smaller island like this, it's like a big deal. When you cross 72 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:44.720 two bridges to get somewhere, I'm like, it's only a 30 minute drive, it's not 73 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.680 a big deal. But to them they measure things and how many bridges you 74 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:52.320 cross to get, to get places. So that's pretty fun. So I guess if you, 75 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:55.520 if you brought up there all your life, your whole life is centred around 76 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.080 being an Islander, I guess. Is it? Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I'm still learning. 77 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:03.920 You're not going to stir crazy then as a, as a, as a New York, 78 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.320 you're not going. It's not like, ah, I need, I need more, I need, obviously 79 00:05:07.320 --> 00:05:10.600 you need more food, but can you, can you cope with the, the pace of 80 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.320 life? Yeah, it, you know, I keep myself busy. I find 81 00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:17.880 ways, I find ways. But no, the people are really, really great. So it's been 82 00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:21.880 a fun. It's been a fun adventure. See, 83 00:05:22.280 --> 00:05:24.960 when we were chatting in the green room and looking at some of the notes 84 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:28.600 you put together, you kind of grown up between two worlds 85 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:33.000 and not quite fitted in anywhere. So how did that come about? 86 00:05:33.640 --> 00:05:37.640 Is this your Dutch ancestry or is this something else in there as 87 00:05:37.640 --> 00:05:41.240 well? Yeah, my dad's from a different country, but when I talk about that, I'm 88 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.640 really talking about Kentucky and New York. So anyone in the States knows those are 89 00:05:44.640 --> 00:05:48.560 basically polar opposite places. Especially in the world today. 90 00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:52.720 The US is very polarised. Even back then, we're 91 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.560 talking multiple decades ago. Kentucky is very rural, 92 00:05:56.880 --> 00:06:00.840 horses and different way of life. I explained to people who've never 93 00:06:00.840 --> 00:06:04.760 been, it's like going back like 50 years and people's rights and way of living 94 00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:08.680 and thought processes. And then in New York, you know, you're always pushing the 95 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.640 boundaries and they want to be on the cutting edge and, you know, it's very, 96 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.580 very, very drastically different world. And my parents divorced when I was very 97 00:06:16.580 --> 00:06:20.180 young and so I really was raised between two 98 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:23.940 completely polar opposite environments. And it gave such a 99 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:27.700 unique perspective because I'm. I always joke that, like, I 100 00:06:27.700 --> 00:06:31.500 don't fit anywhere, but I can fit in anywhere. It's one of those things 101 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:35.220 where I'm not a perfect fit, but I can work with, meet 102 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:38.980 with, socialise with any type of person because of it. And the nice part about 103 00:06:38.980 --> 00:06:42.520 growing up in kind of two extreme environments and is that you. 104 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:47.080 It's not about the right way or the wrong way. It's about this is way 105 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.880 this group does it. This is the way that group does it. This is the 106 00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:53.080 way people over here live. This is the way people over there live. And so 107 00:06:53.080 --> 00:06:56.960 you get this perspective of, you know, you don't have to take on the 108 00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:00.880 identity of, you know, your bubble. So often day people are in kind of like 109 00:07:00.880 --> 00:07:04.880 an echo chamber or they're, you know, their own little bubble. And 110 00:07:04.880 --> 00:07:08.440 even back in the day, especially before, like Internet and social media and all that 111 00:07:08.440 --> 00:07:11.300 fun stuff, like people just were a product of where 112 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:15.860 they were born and raised and they hadn't been to other places before 113 00:07:15.940 --> 00:07:19.860 and been exposed to new things. Whereas for me, such a young age growing 114 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:23.660 up in those extremes, I also learned that there's no capital T 115 00:07:23.660 --> 00:07:27.660 truth like there are. People believe strongly this is the way, but it's 116 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:31.500 usually because they haven't been exposed to other ideas or other places. Or other 117 00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:35.380 groups before. Whereas, because from a very young age I was constantly 118 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:39.250 being witness to and involved with 119 00:07:39.250 --> 00:07:43.210 so many different types of groups. It was not. It was refreshing and kind of 120 00:07:43.210 --> 00:07:47.130 liberating in the sense that you could truly figure out, oh, I 121 00:07:47.130 --> 00:07:50.770 like this, I don't like that. Leave this, take that, you know, take on a 122 00:07:50.770 --> 00:07:54.770 little bit of. And come to, you know, especially with parents divorcing very young, 123 00:07:54.850 --> 00:07:58.290 it wasn't like this was his storey, this was her storey. So the truth is 124 00:07:58.290 --> 00:08:02.130 probably somewhere over here, right. And so it's learning how to disseminate between 125 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:06.440 those things. I also, I don't know if this is a viewing one, but 126 00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:10.320 my hair is my birthmark. I was born with it. And so 127 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:14.120 when I was born in Kentucky and when I moved to New York, I moved 128 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.960 in second grade. When all the other kids had been together for a few years, 129 00:08:16.960 --> 00:08:20.640 I moved with two colour hair, two coloured skin and a southern accent. 130 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.560 They basically thought I was an alien from another planet. So. Which I basically 131 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.560 was. And so being able to be so different, where you don't have the 132 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.820 choice to fit in, you, you really just always stand out. 133 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:36.020 It kind of, it's hard at first, but eventually you learn to just 134 00:08:36.020 --> 00:08:40.020 embrace who you truly are and own that and be okay with 135 00:08:40.020 --> 00:08:43.940 who that is and, and be happy with who that is and realise you 136 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:47.820 don't have to take other people's perspectives or other people's opinions. You can 137 00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:51.740 truly do what makes sense to you. And that's kind of how I've lived 138 00:08:51.740 --> 00:08:55.700 through it. Well, you'll hear for those who are listening to this, not, not able 139 00:08:55.700 --> 00:08:59.380 to see the video, it is quite striking. It's. I guess it's like an 140 00:08:59.380 --> 00:09:03.200 albino. Yeah, that's exactly. It's funny you say this. So 141 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.000 it's called piebalism. So I'm partially albino, which is a medical 142 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.960 impossibility, but here I am. It's very, very, very rare. Some people 143 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:14.840 sometimes see my skin and think vitiligo, which is a degenerative disease. That's not what 144 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:18.640 I have. It runs in my dad's side of the family. And it's just special. 145 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.360 Like this is how I was born, this is how I'll die. Whereas vitiligo is 146 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.680 more of like it, you get more over time and all that. 147 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.210 So it's very, very rare. And so, so it's, it's a, 148 00:09:30.610 --> 00:09:34.250 it's definitely a differentiator. And I always joke it's a conversation 149 00:09:34.250 --> 00:09:37.490 starter. Cause I get it attracts all the people, 150 00:09:37.650 --> 00:09:41.490 crazies and the like. And so, you know, it's. It's interesting 151 00:09:41.810 --> 00:09:45.610 being so different. You learn a lot of interesting things with how people 152 00:09:45.610 --> 00:09:49.490 approach you and kind of the situations I've been in. But, yeah, I get. 153 00:09:49.490 --> 00:09:52.690 The two things I get the most often are I get Rogue from X Men. 154 00:09:52.690 --> 00:09:56.410 So for those listening, Rogue from X Men. And then I also now get Princess 155 00:09:56.410 --> 00:09:59.490 Anna from Frozen, so I have rogue red hair and then I have a white 156 00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:02.730 streak in the front. And now people. I say, oh, gee, how much people 157 00:10:03.210 --> 00:10:06.930 would die for that? Like, they. How much people pay to dye their hair like 158 00:10:06.930 --> 00:10:10.170 that? So now I'm in vogue, I'm in style. But, you know, when you're a 159 00:10:10.170 --> 00:10:14.090 kid and you're different, you know, it's hard to be different. But I think 160 00:10:14.090 --> 00:10:17.850 it teaches some really valuable lessons on empathy 161 00:10:17.850 --> 00:10:20.970 and inclusion and all of it, you know, Really? 162 00:10:21.850 --> 00:10:24.690 I love that. Yeah. I mean, my first reaction when I saw your hair, and 163 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:28.660 I saw you when you came onto the show as well, loving your hair, 164 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:32.660 it's imagined it was a style choice. And as you say, people pay 165 00:10:32.660 --> 00:10:36.420 good money to have that done. And you've had your roots done recently, sort of 166 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:40.180 thing. So. Yeah. But no, it's. Own it. You never thought to dye it out 167 00:10:40.180 --> 00:10:44.180 or. I tried when I was little. Little, I tried because kids 168 00:10:44.180 --> 00:10:47.660 can be really cruel and there's no pigment, so it doesn't hold 169 00:10:47.660 --> 00:10:51.620 colour. So I went to, like, a professional salon and they couldn't dye 170 00:10:51.620 --> 00:10:54.640 it. And then the second. Second question that people always get is, well, why don't 171 00:10:54.640 --> 00:10:58.480 you make your red as. As, like all white? And I'm like, you can't. So 172 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.960 I've only seen one person my whole life get her hair as white as mine, 173 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.880 who wasn't naturally. She was naturally a blonde to begin with and she had, 174 00:11:05.880 --> 00:11:09.680 like, dyed her hair, like, blue or something, and she stripped it. And so it 175 00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:13.640 was like, dead and brittle and, like, gross because she had, you know, taken 176 00:11:13.640 --> 00:11:16.920 all the pigment out of her hair, whereas mine's natural. And that's the other thing 177 00:11:16.920 --> 00:11:19.240 I get a lot. People are always shocked by this, but I have so many 178 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:23.200 storeys. I could tell. But people will come up to me all the time, strangers, 179 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:26.880 and pet me or try to take a picture with 180 00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:29.920 me. And you think it's like, you know, a lot of people dye their hair 181 00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:33.280 now. You think it wouldn't be so novel. But people still, like, constantly are coming 182 00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:37.280 up to me and trying to, like, pet me or talk about my 183 00:11:37.280 --> 00:11:41.040 hair. And it's really funny because the thing that you learn, actually, 184 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:45.040 is that people, people are people. 185 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:49.000 And literally there's about five things that people typically say. And 186 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.340 the fun part, and I've kind of relearned this a few times throughout my life, 187 00:11:52.340 --> 00:11:56.220 but people really fit into one of five categories, usually 188 00:11:56.300 --> 00:12:00.180 the way they think. And so I hear the same things over and over 189 00:12:00.180 --> 00:12:03.180 again. And you search, and when they say it, they're saying it for the first 190 00:12:03.180 --> 00:12:07.060 time, so they think they're being creative and inventive and, oh, I'm gonna say this 191 00:12:07.060 --> 00:12:10.980 unique thing that nobody's heard of before, right? And it's, it's really funny 192 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:14.900 because it's, it's very rare for someone to say something truly unique 193 00:12:14.900 --> 00:12:18.580 and different. And when they do, I'm like, ooh, your brain works different. You're 194 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:22.520 interesting because usually it's like one of five things that people say. Have 195 00:12:22.520 --> 00:12:26.400 you seen a ghost? I've been in near death experience, Rogue or ana. How 196 00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.720 do you know how much people pay for that? You know, like, all those are 197 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.440 the typical ones I get over and over again, but every once in a while 198 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.319 I'll hear like something far out and I'm like, wow, your brain is 199 00:12:36.319 --> 00:12:40.120 very different. So. And I could do that with authority because I talk to a 200 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.400 lot of people from around the world. So. Oh, my first reaction was, wow, I 201 00:12:43.400 --> 00:12:46.920 love it. And just it's, as you say, it's a conversation starter. It's brilliant. 202 00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:52.590 We called this title of this show, this episode, Organising Chaos, 203 00:12:52.590 --> 00:12:56.430 Sparking Belonging. That chaos you've lived in being a bit 204 00:12:56.430 --> 00:12:59.990 different. This dual culture, the Kentucky culture, 205 00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:04.070 the Dutch historic culture, the New York culture, now the Rhode island 206 00:13:04.070 --> 00:13:08.030 culture, that sort of. You've been in a constant state 207 00:13:08.030 --> 00:13:11.590 of flux most of your life and not sure what's up or what's down. As 208 00:13:11.590 --> 00:13:14.550 you say, you're not enough of this to be that and you're not enough of 209 00:13:14.550 --> 00:13:18.150 that to be this. The others living in the middle somewhere. 210 00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:23.350 Yeah. And it's funny because so what it really is 211 00:13:23.430 --> 00:13:27.390 is when I talk about organising the chaos. So my parents met because of 212 00:13:27.390 --> 00:13:31.230 horses. I'm alive because of horses. And so, you know, 213 00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:34.230 even from a very young age, when you're on a farm, you work for those 214 00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:37.990 who know. They know. And so I was doing. I was running 215 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:41.910 horse programmes. I was running horseshoes when I was like 10 years old. Even my 216 00:13:41.910 --> 00:13:44.470 mom recently was like, how do you do what you do? And I was like, 217 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:48.250 well, it's easy. Like, you rate. Like, I was running horse shows when I was 218 00:13:48.250 --> 00:13:52.210 a child, basically. And that's where kind of organising the chaos comes in when 219 00:13:52.210 --> 00:13:54.690 you have a large event or a lot of different types of people or a 220 00:13:54.690 --> 00:13:58.570 lot of different types of roles and variety and diversity and, you know, 221 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:02.490 all this fun stuff is how do you bring them all together? And that's really 222 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:05.050 a lot of what I do. And it's called a lot of different things in 223 00:14:05.050 --> 00:14:08.730 a lot of different places. But I consider myself kind of the glue that brings 224 00:14:08.730 --> 00:14:12.660 everybody together and like, okay, how are we going to work together? We may 225 00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:16.380 come from different perspectives, we may come from different backgrounds, different languages, different 226 00:14:16.380 --> 00:14:20.220 cultures, but how do we. How can we come together to get 227 00:14:20.700 --> 00:14:24.700 a shared result and get the best result possible? So 228 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:28.660 I've been doing this a very long time and it was way before 229 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:32.660 my corporate life, like even in my teenage years, you know, being able to bring 230 00:14:32.660 --> 00:14:36.620 people together to get a better result together, that's kind of what I do at 231 00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:40.170 the heart of what I do, like, if I oversimplify. But of course, the 232 00:14:40.170 --> 00:14:43.530 complexity that we talk about comes in when you have all these different types of 233 00:14:43.530 --> 00:14:47.330 people from different backgrounds having different views of what'll be the most 234 00:14:47.330 --> 00:14:51.210 successful. And how do you get them to agree and align and move 235 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:55.010 forward in the right direction together? Well, that's the universal question, 236 00:14:55.010 --> 00:14:58.730 doesn't it? How do we get people to often talk about herding 237 00:14:58.730 --> 00:15:02.730 cats and pigeons? People very rarely go where you want them to go. 238 00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:06.450 And I guess the chaos ensues because we're all different, aren't we? 239 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.680 Yeah, definitely. So you're an L and D 240 00:15:10.680 --> 00:15:13.920 specialist, you work across the world. And I think we were talking earlier, you said 241 00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:17.400 that you're often. I asked which time zone you're in. Say, well, I'm in the 242 00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:21.080 time zone of the moment, whoever you're speaking to. 243 00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:24.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for those listening, L and D. So I'm a big believer 244 00:15:24.920 --> 00:15:27.400 in, like, spelling things out because L and D can mean a lot of different 245 00:15:27.400 --> 00:15:31.200 things. So I'm in learning development, so. But L and D can also be labour 246 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.240 and delivery and a few other lnds come to mind. But so for me, it's 247 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.100 learning development. So it's funny because growing up, I thought I'd be a teacher. My 248 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:41.820 mom was a teacher. And like I said earlier, I coached horseback riding and I 249 00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:45.500 taught and I love working with kids. And so I actually went to university 250 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:49.740 to be a teacher. And I'm an overachiever, so I was actually 251 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:53.780 working in the school system while I was in college to 252 00:15:53.780 --> 00:15:57.740 become a teacher. And I realised that as much as I Love working with 253 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:01.460 kids. I wanted to do more and I 254 00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:05.430 wanted to, you know, be able to continue to learn and 255 00:16:05.430 --> 00:16:09.390 improve and grow. And so I kind of fell into psychology and business 256 00:16:09.390 --> 00:16:13.270 because I've always loved psychology and how what makes people motivated and what 257 00:16:13.270 --> 00:16:16.630 makes people tick and interacting with all these different types of people from all the 258 00:16:16.630 --> 00:16:20.270 world. And so I fell into corporate America right out of undergrad, 259 00:16:20.830 --> 00:16:24.670 and then through a series of events a couple of years 260 00:16:24.670 --> 00:16:28.190 later, I came full circle back into adult learning 261 00:16:28.430 --> 00:16:31.700 and development. And so that's where I am. So I like to just joke, but 262 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:35.580 it's true. I'm certified to train birth through death. And so 263 00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:39.220 it's a fun full circle of how do you. Continuous 264 00:16:39.220 --> 00:16:43.100 improvement and continuous learning. But so really having that full 265 00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:47.020 journey of learning and development from all stages of life. Yeah, I agree with you. 266 00:16:47.020 --> 00:16:50.460 I talk a lot about belonging and I think one of the key things 267 00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:54.860 to get the best out of people is they have to feel welcomed 268 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:58.940 and they have to feel the paces for them, don't they? And it's very 269 00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:02.820 hard to describe what belonging means, but you know when 270 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:06.820 you do. When you have it. Yeah. You know it when you 271 00:17:06.820 --> 00:17:10.740 feel it. Yeah. And I always describe belonging or 272 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:14.660 inclusion as a feeling. It's. I feel belonging, I 273 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:17.180 feel included. I also say that 274 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:21.740 you can, in the same way you can be 275 00:17:22.860 --> 00:17:26.040 with a whole lot of people and still be alone, lonely. 276 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.600 Alone and lonely are different. I can be lonely in a room full of people 277 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:34.280 and I can also. I can be included 278 00:17:34.760 --> 00:17:38.640 but not feel belonging. Absolutely. Yeah. And 279 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.400 it's, it's, it's, I think a lot of the time, businesses 280 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.120 spend a lot of time talking about diversity, equity, 281 00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:50.040 inclusion, but they miss, they miss the magic, which is the belonging 282 00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:53.930 side. Because I'm not going to hang around for long if 283 00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:57.010 I, if I just, if it doesn't rub with me, it doesn't resonate if I 284 00:17:57.010 --> 00:18:00.370 feel awkward. And that's where the magic happens for me. And so, you know, calling 285 00:18:00.370 --> 00:18:04.050 this sparking belonging really, really resonates. Yeah, absolutely. 286 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:08.650 It's so often that people are especially like 287 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:12.370 you talked about big businesses, right? They. They talk the talk, but 288 00:18:12.690 --> 00:18:16.450 it does, it doesn't. It either feels shallow or doesn't feel authentic 289 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:20.390 or it feels like it's just checking a box. And so to 290 00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:24.030 truly have belonging where your employees or your contractors, 291 00:18:24.030 --> 00:18:27.950 consultants, feel belonging, they have to really understand your why of 292 00:18:27.950 --> 00:18:31.670 what you're doing. And really, they want to be seen. That's really all people want 293 00:18:31.670 --> 00:18:35.670 is to be heard and seen. And if they feel that then they are going 294 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.670 to feel that sense of belonging and that they're cared for and if they don't, 295 00:18:39.670 --> 00:18:43.670 you know, people are good at sensing when something doesn't quite add up. 296 00:18:43.670 --> 00:18:47.020 Yeah. I mean in a modern world where we're where 297 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:51.820 consuming huge amounts of video and online information 298 00:18:52.060 --> 00:18:55.780 and TikTok, you've certainly got, I think you've got about three seconds to get 299 00:18:55.780 --> 00:18:59.580 someone's attention and they'll just swipe it on to the next one. And that's a 300 00:18:59.580 --> 00:19:03.420 bit like belonging I guess as well where you instantly, no, not interested, that 301 00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:07.420 not interested, that not interested. And we're going to try and get people's, grab people's 302 00:19:07.420 --> 00:19:11.420 attention. And I do it again when I watch Netflix and trying to 303 00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:14.460 find a new box set. You start it off within five minutes. You think 304 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.240 this is, this isn't going to work for me, move on. And 305 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:23.320 it is. And that's how we can find our employees. Our 306 00:19:23.320 --> 00:19:26.920 customers feel they're walking in and just going, no, 307 00:19:27.080 --> 00:19:30.520 it's not working. And that's a really hard thing to nail down. 308 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.720 Do you remember the sitcom Cheers? 309 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:38.040 Yep. In the 70s or 80s, whatever it was, or 90s. 310 00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:42.550 And I always thought that bar, that's, that's how I 311 00:19:42.550 --> 00:19:46.430 describe belonging. It's a, it's a place where everyone knows your name. You've got 312 00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:50.310 your, your, your mug behind the counter, you've got your chair, you've got all your 313 00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:54.310 friends around you. Every time you walk in there, it's just so comfortable 314 00:19:54.390 --> 00:19:56.470 that you, you desire you. 315 00:19:58.150 --> 00:20:01.870 And if they refurb that bar or change it or you'll swap your chair out, 316 00:20:01.870 --> 00:20:05.670 you're gonna go, it's not working for me anymore. So it's, it's really 317 00:20:05.830 --> 00:20:08.730 sweet spot we gotta try and find for people. And I guess when you're, 318 00:20:09.770 --> 00:20:13.610 you know, you talk about learning and development, when we gotta really tailor 319 00:20:14.730 --> 00:20:18.450 what we do and how we develop things so that people do 320 00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:22.250 resonate with that, the content or the topic or even 321 00:20:22.250 --> 00:20:24.810 the vibe and what you're trying to provide. So 322 00:20:26.090 --> 00:20:29.890 what techniques do you find most insightful? I guess when you're trying 323 00:20:29.890 --> 00:20:33.890 to find that sweet spot. So a lot of it is, you know, you 324 00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:37.790 start this in school and people dictate what your curriculum is, 325 00:20:37.790 --> 00:20:41.590 they dictate what you need to do. Maybe they talk about the why, 326 00:20:41.590 --> 00:20:45.550 maybe they don't. But I find especially with adult learning and even earlier, 327 00:20:45.550 --> 00:20:49.230 I think we should, the school should incorporate this too. But especially with 328 00:20:49.230 --> 00:20:53.070 companies, a lot of times they have, they have their mandates, they have to 329 00:20:53.070 --> 00:20:57.070 there's certain compliance trainings that have to happen, right, for. To make sure you're on 330 00:20:57.070 --> 00:21:00.270 the up and up. For the most part. What you want to do is 331 00:21:00.750 --> 00:21:04.680 spark that curiosity and make sure people understand what, what's in it 332 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.680 for them. They need to be driving it, they need to be involved 333 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.520 in it, not it happening to them, but really them wanting to 334 00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:16.240 involve. And in the world we're living in, it's not an option anymore. 335 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.480 I'm a lifelong learner. Some of the, the, 336 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.480 the greats really are because they want to continue to improve themselves and that's 337 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.280 wonderful. The world we're living in now, there's no choice. You have to 338 00:21:28.280 --> 00:21:31.960 continue to learn and adapt because of the pace of everything moving. We talked a 339 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:35.630 little bit about technology before we signed in and, you know, it's, it's 340 00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:39.630 critical now more than ever, but it's people understanding 341 00:21:39.630 --> 00:21:43.470 what's in it for them and also having autonomy in what they 342 00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:47.150 get to do and how they get to do it. So it's, it's them being 343 00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:51.069 able to say, hey, you know, I'd rather have a conversation with a person 344 00:21:51.069 --> 00:21:53.230 and that's how I'm going to learn the best, or I'm going to get the 345 00:21:53.230 --> 00:21:57.030 most out of it. Where someone else might want to read the entire manual first 346 00:21:57.190 --> 00:22:00.830 and then take a test, right? So there's so many different types of learning styles 347 00:22:00.830 --> 00:22:04.740 and individual things. So I think with organisations, the best you can 348 00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:08.340 do is really get that what's in it for them, so they really understand what 349 00:22:08.340 --> 00:22:11.820 they're gaining from it, but then give them some autonomy of how they're 350 00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:15.900 consuming it, how they're leveraging it? And the challenge and the fun 351 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.860 part becomes how do you create something that's 352 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:22.620 individual enough that it's really going to resonate with the person, 353 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:27.140 but standard enough that you have an organisation of 354 00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:31.030 people understanding and the same words mean the same 355 00:22:31.030 --> 00:22:34.430 things and how to do processes in a certain way. 356 00:22:34.830 --> 00:22:38.670 So it's that, it's that fine line you have to walk between giving them their 357 00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:42.270 individuality and authenticity and, you know, their 358 00:22:42.270 --> 00:22:46.030 autonomy, but also weaving through the culture and 359 00:22:46.670 --> 00:22:50.390 the collective. How do we move together? You 360 00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:53.790 mentioned the what's in it for me, the wifm, I call it the, you know, 361 00:22:53.790 --> 00:22:57.560 it's your product developers, designers, you're 362 00:22:57.560 --> 00:23:01.280 always focusing on trying to be person centric, so you're developing for 363 00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:05.160 somebody. And whenever I develop solutions, I'm always thinking, thinking 364 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:08.520 in the audience, what's in it for me? Why should I carry on? Why should 365 00:23:08.520 --> 00:23:12.400 I invest my time in you. And then that's, 366 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.240 I guess, part of the mechanism to resonate with what's going on. 367 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:20.640 But you also mentioned that we're living in this world now where 368 00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:25.080 people are polarised. There's a lot of political 369 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:29.080 discourse going on, there's war zones around the 370 00:23:29.080 --> 00:23:32.920 world. It feels a very unstable world today 371 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.400 than it did five years ago. There's a lot more negative 372 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.280 discourse and real challenging conversations going on amongst 373 00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:45.480 people who are completely polarising 374 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.530 around beliefs. That's a really difficult thing 375 00:23:49.530 --> 00:23:52.610 to try and bring into the workplace or even into society. 376 00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:58.530 How do we create room for those conversations, allow 377 00:23:58.530 --> 00:24:01.010 free speech, but also create boundaries. 378 00:24:02.290 --> 00:24:06.050 I get this question a lot in a different kind of context of like, 379 00:24:06.050 --> 00:24:09.890 how can people be authentic? And it's a very 380 00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:13.410 similar thing is, you know, I talk about being who you are, 381 00:24:13.410 --> 00:24:17.330 truly. However, you also have to realise you're 382 00:24:17.330 --> 00:24:21.090 with people, you're with people, other groups of people and working with different 383 00:24:21.090 --> 00:24:24.890 types of people who may have varying beliefs. And so a lot of people say, 384 00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:28.130 well, I'm just being authentic, I'm just being real, I'm just being me. And that's 385 00:24:28.130 --> 00:24:32.130 fine. But what you need to be able to do, and you know 386 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:36.090 what more advanced people can do, is instead of just being 387 00:24:36.090 --> 00:24:38.930 the, this is, this is the raw me and this is how I'm going to 388 00:24:38.930 --> 00:24:42.060 be all the time. You have to realise that how you show up in the 389 00:24:42.060 --> 00:24:45.740 world is going to impact other people and influence other people. And 390 00:24:45.820 --> 00:24:49.540 so what I try to be is I always try to be authentically myself. Obviously 391 00:24:49.540 --> 00:24:53.060 I am who I am. However, there's a way that I can be true to 392 00:24:53.060 --> 00:24:56.900 myself but also be respectful of somebody else. So for example, I am 393 00:24:56.900 --> 00:25:00.700 absolutely an extrovert. You can probably tell for any of those watching, I'm moving around 394 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:03.740 in my chair, I'm talking with my hands. It's also a New York thing. However, 395 00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:07.900 I know that when I'm in front of a bunch of technical people, engineers and 396 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:11.710 against the stereotype, but it's tends to be a little bit true. You know, they 397 00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:15.350 want much more. They don't want the information as big 398 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:19.430 and as colourful, they want the data, they want the facts. And so 399 00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:23.230 it's knowing your audience, it's knowing who you're speaking to. And when I say 400 00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:26.990 audience, I don't necessarily mean like a true audience. All it might be, but it's 401 00:25:26.990 --> 00:25:29.550