Joanne Lockwood: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone
Joanne Lockwood: not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.
Joanne Lockwood: Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge
Joanne Lockwood: the status quo and share storeys that resonate
Joanne Lockwood: deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're
Joanne Lockwood: sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's
Joanne Lockwood: connect, reflect and inspire action together.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out
Joanne Lockwood: to joe.lockwoodeechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 195
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Amanda
Joanne Lockwood: Van der Heyden. Amanda is a Chaos coordinator
Joanne Lockwood: and a relationship builder with over 20 years experience
Joanne Lockwood: in L and D, leading global rollouts for
Joanne Lockwood: over 40 companies across 15 countries, spread
Joanne Lockwood: over 12 different industries, and of
Joanne Lockwood: course, empowering teams through People first solutions.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it is
Joanne Lockwood: translating complexity into people centred
Joanne Lockwood: momentum. That all sounds fascinating. I say hello, Amanda, welcome to
Joanne Lockwood: the show. Thank you for having me. So your name,
Joanne Lockwood: it says to me Dutch. So you have some Dutch heritage in
Joanne Lockwood: you? Yep, my dad is from the Netherlands. His whole family is still there.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: He's the only one in the States. Wow. So you're. You're now in the States
Joanne Lockwood: yourself? Yeah, Yep. Did you say New
Joanne Lockwood: York or thereabouts. So in real life, I'm a New Yorker currently living
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in Rhode Island. Very random. So it's been fun journey. So for
Joanne Lockwood: someone who doesn't know the geography of the States too well, I mean, that's me.
Joanne Lockwood: So Rhode island is on the east coast. Still isn't is so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: with COVID and all the moving and fun stuff that happened, I used to be
Amanda Van Der Heiden: about an hour from Manhattan and then I moved down to Kentucky, which
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is like the Middle west, very drastically different world.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And then all the way up to the tippy top point on the east side
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of little tiny Rhode island, so. So above you
Joanne Lockwood: is Canada, is that? Yes, basically. Basically not too far away. If
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you had asked a couple years ago, Rhode Island, I'd say, what's in Rhode Island?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: But just one of those things. Life takes you to new
Amanda Van Der Heiden: places and the People are really nice here, so I love it. But I definitely
Amanda Van Der Heiden: am missing the food from New York, that is for sure.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I was, I've been in New York probably three or four times. I, I
Joanne Lockwood: worked over there and had a bit of a holiday there once. And you're right,
Joanne Lockwood: there's. On every street corner there's, there's something else. Yeah, you've got the
Joanne Lockwood: left Liftly, you got all those sort of places, you've got all the different
Joanne Lockwood: zones and things. Whatever you want. And it's a bit
Joanne Lockwood: like London I guess. You can. Whenever you want, whatever time of the day you
Joanne Lockwood: want, whatever time of year you want, you can find whatever you like.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah. If you can't, they'll deliver it somewhere. Yeah, yeah, it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: great melting pot. So the climate must be a
Joanne Lockwood: bit cooler up in Rhode island. Does it? Yeah, it's off the water, so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's, you know, northeast definitely right now it's really pretty. This is the right
Amanda Van Der Heiden: time of year. But it has both extremes, the heat in August and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the freezing cold in the winter. So we definitely get the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: seasons here. What's the nickname of the state then? What's it,
Joanne Lockwood: what is it? It's not Sunshine State. What is it? Quiz me. That's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: California. Rhode island is the Ocean State because it's basically a tiny
Amanda Van Der Heiden: little island in the, in the. So it's completely an island. So you
Joanne Lockwood: have a bridge over the top, do you? There's bridges everywhere,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: there's. And the funny thing I've learned, so I've only been here about a year
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and a half and the fun part is, is that locals like local Rhode island
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people will be like, wow, you cross two bridges to be here. And I'm like,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the bridges are like every five, 10 minutes. But apparently when you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: have a smaller island like this, it's like a big deal. When you cross
Amanda Van Der Heiden: two bridges to get somewhere, I'm like, it's only a 30 minute drive, it's not
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a big deal. But to them they measure things and how many bridges you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: cross to get, to get places. So that's pretty fun. So I guess if you,
Joanne Lockwood: if you brought up there all your life, your whole life is centred around
Joanne Lockwood: being an Islander, I guess. Is it? Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I'm still learning.
Joanne Lockwood: You're not going to stir crazy then as a, as a, as a New York,
Joanne Lockwood: you're not going. It's not like, ah, I need, I need more, I need, obviously
Joanne Lockwood: you need more food, but can you, can you cope with the, the pace of
Joanne Lockwood: life? Yeah, it, you know, I keep myself busy. I find
Amanda Van Der Heiden: ways, I find ways. But no, the people are really, really great. So it's been
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a fun. It's been a fun adventure. See,
Joanne Lockwood: when we were chatting in the green room and looking at some of the notes
Joanne Lockwood: you put together, you kind of grown up between two worlds
Joanne Lockwood: and not quite fitted in anywhere. So how did that come about?
Joanne Lockwood: Is this your Dutch ancestry or is this something else in there as
Joanne Lockwood: well? Yeah, my dad's from a different country, but when I talk about that, I'm
Amanda Van Der Heiden: really talking about Kentucky and New York. So anyone in the States knows those are
Amanda Van Der Heiden: basically polar opposite places. Especially in the world today.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: The US is very polarised. Even back then, we're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: talking multiple decades ago. Kentucky is very rural,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: horses and different way of life. I explained to people who've never
Amanda Van Der Heiden: been, it's like going back like 50 years and people's rights and way of living
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and thought processes. And then in New York, you know, you're always pushing the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: boundaries and they want to be on the cutting edge and, you know, it's very,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: very, very drastically different world. And my parents divorced when I was very
Amanda Van Der Heiden: young and so I really was raised between two
Amanda Van Der Heiden: completely polar opposite environments. And it gave such a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: unique perspective because I'm. I always joke that, like, I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: don't fit anywhere, but I can fit in anywhere. It's one of those things
Amanda Van Der Heiden: where I'm not a perfect fit, but I can work with, meet
Amanda Van Der Heiden: with, socialise with any type of person because of it. And the nice part about
Amanda Van Der Heiden: growing up in kind of two extreme environments and is that you.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It's not about the right way or the wrong way. It's about this is way
Amanda Van Der Heiden: this group does it. This is the way that group does it. This is the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: way people over here live. This is the way people over there live. And so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you get this perspective of, you know, you don't have to take on the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: identity of, you know, your bubble. So often day people are in kind of like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: an echo chamber or they're, you know, their own little bubble. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: even back in the day, especially before, like Internet and social media and all that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: fun stuff, like people just were a product of where
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they were born and raised and they hadn't been to other places before
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and been exposed to new things. Whereas for me, such a young age growing
Amanda Van Der Heiden: up in those extremes, I also learned that there's no capital T
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truth like there are. People believe strongly this is the way, but it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: usually because they haven't been exposed to other ideas or other places. Or other
Amanda Van Der Heiden: groups before. Whereas, because from a very young age I was constantly
Amanda Van Der Heiden: being witness to and involved with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so many different types of groups. It was not. It was refreshing and kind of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: liberating in the sense that you could truly figure out, oh, I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: like this, I don't like that. Leave this, take that, you know, take on a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: little bit of. And come to, you know, especially with parents divorcing very young,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it wasn't like this was his storey, this was her storey. So the truth is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: probably somewhere over here, right. And so it's learning how to disseminate between
Amanda Van Der Heiden: those things. I also, I don't know if this is a viewing one, but
Amanda Van Der Heiden: my hair is my birthmark. I was born with it. And so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: when I was born in Kentucky and when I moved to New York, I moved
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in second grade. When all the other kids had been together for a few years,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I moved with two colour hair, two coloured skin and a southern accent.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: They basically thought I was an alien from another planet. So. Which I basically
Amanda Van Der Heiden: was. And so being able to be so different, where you don't have the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: choice to fit in, you, you really just always stand out.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It kind of, it's hard at first, but eventually you learn to just
Amanda Van Der Heiden: embrace who you truly are and own that and be okay with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: who that is and, and be happy with who that is and realise you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: don't have to take other people's perspectives or other people's opinions. You can
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truly do what makes sense to you. And that's kind of how I've lived
Amanda Van Der Heiden: through it. Well, you'll hear for those who are listening to this, not, not able
Joanne Lockwood: to see the video, it is quite striking. It's. I guess it's like an
Joanne Lockwood: albino. Yeah, that's exactly. It's funny you say this. So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's called piebalism. So I'm partially albino, which is a medical
Amanda Van Der Heiden: impossibility, but here I am. It's very, very, very rare. Some people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: sometimes see my skin and think vitiligo, which is a degenerative disease. That's not what
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I have. It runs in my dad's side of the family. And it's just special.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Like this is how I was born, this is how I'll die. Whereas vitiligo is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: more of like it, you get more over time and all that.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So it's very, very rare. And so, so it's, it's a,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's definitely a differentiator. And I always joke it's a conversation
Amanda Van Der Heiden: starter. Cause I get it attracts all the people,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: crazies and the like. And so, you know, it's. It's interesting
Amanda Van Der Heiden: being so different. You learn a lot of interesting things with how people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: approach you and kind of the situations I've been in. But, yeah, I get.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: The two things I get the most often are I get Rogue from X Men.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So for those listening, Rogue from X Men. And then I also now get Princess
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Anna from Frozen, so I have rogue red hair and then I have a white
Amanda Van Der Heiden: streak in the front. And now people. I say, oh, gee, how much people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: would die for that? Like, they. How much people pay to dye their hair like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that? So now I'm in vogue, I'm in style. But, you know, when you're a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: kid and you're different, you know, it's hard to be different. But I think
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it teaches some really valuable lessons on empathy
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and inclusion and all of it, you know, Really?
Joanne Lockwood: I love that. Yeah. I mean, my first reaction when I saw your hair, and
Joanne Lockwood: I saw you when you came onto the show as well, loving your hair,
Joanne Lockwood: it's imagined it was a style choice. And as you say, people pay
Joanne Lockwood: good money to have that done. And you've had your roots done recently, sort of
Joanne Lockwood: thing. So. Yeah. But no, it's. Own it. You never thought to dye it out
Joanne Lockwood: or. I tried when I was little. Little, I tried because kids
Amanda Van Der Heiden: can be really cruel and there's no pigment, so it doesn't hold
Amanda Van Der Heiden: colour. So I went to, like, a professional salon and they couldn't dye
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it. And then the second. Second question that people always get is, well, why don't
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you make your red as. As, like all white? And I'm like, you can't. So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I've only seen one person my whole life get her hair as white as mine,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: who wasn't naturally. She was naturally a blonde to begin with and she had,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: like, dyed her hair, like, blue or something, and she stripped it. And so it
Amanda Van Der Heiden: was like, dead and brittle and, like, gross because she had, you know, taken
Amanda Van Der Heiden: all the pigment out of her hair, whereas mine's natural. And that's the other thing
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I get a lot. People are always shocked by this, but I have so many
Amanda Van Der Heiden: storeys. I could tell. But people will come up to me all the time, strangers,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and pet me or try to take a picture with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: me. And you think it's like, you know, a lot of people dye their hair
Amanda Van Der Heiden: now. You think it wouldn't be so novel. But people still, like, constantly are coming
Amanda Van Der Heiden: up to me and trying to, like, pet me or talk about my
Amanda Van Der Heiden: hair. And it's really funny because the thing that you learn, actually,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is that people, people are people.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And literally there's about five things that people typically say. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the fun part, and I've kind of relearned this a few times throughout my life,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: but people really fit into one of five categories, usually
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the way they think. And so I hear the same things over and over
Amanda Van Der Heiden: again. And you search, and when they say it, they're saying it for the first
Amanda Van Der Heiden: time, so they think they're being creative and inventive and, oh, I'm gonna say this
Amanda Van Der Heiden: unique thing that nobody's heard of before, right? And it's, it's really funny
Amanda Van Der Heiden: because it's, it's very rare for someone to say something truly unique
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and different. And when they do, I'm like, ooh, your brain works different. You're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: interesting because usually it's like one of five things that people say. Have
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you seen a ghost? I've been in near death experience, Rogue or ana. How
Amanda Van Der Heiden: do you know how much people pay for that? You know, like, all those are
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the typical ones I get over and over again, but every once in a while
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I'll hear like something far out and I'm like, wow, your brain is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: very different. So. And I could do that with authority because I talk to a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: lot of people from around the world. So. Oh, my first reaction was, wow, I
Joanne Lockwood: love it. And just it's, as you say, it's a conversation starter. It's brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: We called this title of this show, this episode, Organising Chaos,
Joanne Lockwood: Sparking Belonging. That chaos you've lived in being a bit
Joanne Lockwood: different. This dual culture, the Kentucky culture,
Joanne Lockwood: the Dutch historic culture, the New York culture, now the Rhode island
Joanne Lockwood: culture, that sort of. You've been in a constant state
Joanne Lockwood: of flux most of your life and not sure what's up or what's down. As
Joanne Lockwood: you say, you're not enough of this to be that and you're not enough of
Joanne Lockwood: that to be this. The others living in the middle somewhere.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah. And it's funny because so what it really is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is when I talk about organising the chaos. So my parents met because of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: horses. I'm alive because of horses. And so, you know,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: even from a very young age, when you're on a farm, you work for those
Amanda Van Der Heiden: who know. They know. And so I was doing. I was running
Amanda Van Der Heiden: horse programmes. I was running horseshoes when I was like 10 years old. Even my
Amanda Van Der Heiden: mom recently was like, how do you do what you do? And I was like,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: well, it's easy. Like, you rate. Like, I was running horse shows when I was
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a child, basically. And that's where kind of organising the chaos comes in when
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you have a large event or a lot of different types of people or a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: lot of different types of roles and variety and diversity and, you know,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: all this fun stuff is how do you bring them all together? And that's really
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a lot of what I do. And it's called a lot of different things in
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a lot of different places. But I consider myself kind of the glue that brings
Amanda Van Der Heiden: everybody together and like, okay, how are we going to work together? We may
Amanda Van Der Heiden: come from different perspectives, we may come from different backgrounds, different languages, different
Amanda Van Der Heiden: cultures, but how do we. How can we come together to get
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a shared result and get the best result possible? So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I've been doing this a very long time and it was way before
Amanda Van Der Heiden: my corporate life, like even in my teenage years, you know, being able to bring
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people together to get a better result together, that's kind of what I do at
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the heart of what I do, like, if I oversimplify. But of course, the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: complexity that we talk about comes in when you have all these different types of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people from different backgrounds having different views of what'll be the most
Amanda Van Der Heiden: successful. And how do you get them to agree and align and move
Amanda Van Der Heiden: forward in the right direction together? Well, that's the universal question,
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't it? How do we get people to often talk about herding
Joanne Lockwood: cats and pigeons? People very rarely go where you want them to go.
Joanne Lockwood: And I guess the chaos ensues because we're all different, aren't we?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, definitely. So you're an L and D
Joanne Lockwood: specialist, you work across the world. And I think we were talking earlier, you said
Joanne Lockwood: that you're often. I asked which time zone you're in. Say, well, I'm in the
Joanne Lockwood: time zone of the moment, whoever you're speaking to.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for those listening, L and D. So I'm a big believer
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in, like, spelling things out because L and D can mean a lot of different
Amanda Van Der Heiden: things. So I'm in learning development, so. But L and D can also be labour
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and delivery and a few other lnds come to mind. But so for me, it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: learning development. So it's funny because growing up, I thought I'd be a teacher. My
Amanda Van Der Heiden: mom was a teacher. And like I said earlier, I coached horseback riding and I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: taught and I love working with kids. And so I actually went to university
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to be a teacher. And I'm an overachiever, so I was actually
Amanda Van Der Heiden: working in the school system while I was in college to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: become a teacher. And I realised that as much as I Love working with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: kids. I wanted to do more and I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: wanted to, you know, be able to continue to learn and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: improve and grow. And so I kind of fell into psychology and business
Amanda Van Der Heiden: because I've always loved psychology and how what makes people motivated and what
Amanda Van Der Heiden: makes people tick and interacting with all these different types of people from all the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: world. And so I fell into corporate America right out of undergrad,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and then through a series of events a couple of years
Amanda Van Der Heiden: later, I came full circle back into adult learning
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and development. And so that's where I am. So I like to just joke, but
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's true. I'm certified to train birth through death. And so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's a fun full circle of how do you. Continuous
Amanda Van Der Heiden: improvement and continuous learning. But so really having that full
Amanda Van Der Heiden: journey of learning and development from all stages of life. Yeah, I agree with you.
Joanne Lockwood: I talk a lot about belonging and I think one of the key things
Joanne Lockwood: to get the best out of people is they have to feel welcomed
Joanne Lockwood: and they have to feel the paces for them, don't they? And it's very
Joanne Lockwood: hard to describe what belonging means, but you know when
Joanne Lockwood: you do. When you have it. Yeah. You know it when you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: feel it. Yeah. And I always describe belonging or
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion as a feeling. It's. I feel belonging, I
Joanne Lockwood: feel included. I also say that
Joanne Lockwood: you can, in the same way you can be
Joanne Lockwood: with a whole lot of people and still be alone, lonely.
Joanne Lockwood: Alone and lonely are different. I can be lonely in a room full of people
Joanne Lockwood: and I can also. I can be included
Joanne Lockwood: but not feel belonging. Absolutely. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's, it's, it's, I think a lot of the time, businesses
Joanne Lockwood: spend a lot of time talking about diversity, equity,
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, but they miss, they miss the magic, which is the belonging
Joanne Lockwood: side. Because I'm not going to hang around for long if
Joanne Lockwood: I, if I just, if it doesn't rub with me, it doesn't resonate if I
Joanne Lockwood: feel awkward. And that's where the magic happens for me. And so, you know, calling
Joanne Lockwood: this sparking belonging really, really resonates. Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It's so often that people are especially like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you talked about big businesses, right? They. They talk the talk, but
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it does, it doesn't. It either feels shallow or doesn't feel authentic
Amanda Van Der Heiden: or it feels like it's just checking a box. And so to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truly have belonging where your employees or your contractors,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: consultants, feel belonging, they have to really understand your why of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what you're doing. And really, they want to be seen. That's really all people want
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is to be heard and seen. And if they feel that then they are going
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to feel that sense of belonging and that they're cared for and if they don't,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you know, people are good at sensing when something doesn't quite add up.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean in a modern world where we're where
Joanne Lockwood: consuming huge amounts of video and online information
Joanne Lockwood: and TikTok, you've certainly got, I think you've got about three seconds to get
Joanne Lockwood: someone's attention and they'll just swipe it on to the next one. And that's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit like belonging I guess as well where you instantly, no, not interested, that
Joanne Lockwood: not interested, that not interested. And we're going to try and get people's, grab people's
Joanne Lockwood: attention. And I do it again when I watch Netflix and trying to
Joanne Lockwood: find a new box set. You start it off within five minutes. You think
Joanne Lockwood: this is, this isn't going to work for me, move on. And
Joanne Lockwood: it is. And that's how we can find our employees. Our
Joanne Lockwood: customers feel they're walking in and just going, no,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not working. And that's a really hard thing to nail down.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you remember the sitcom Cheers?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yep. In the 70s or 80s, whatever it was, or 90s.
Joanne Lockwood: And I always thought that bar, that's, that's how I
Joanne Lockwood: describe belonging. It's a, it's a place where everyone knows your name. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: your, your, your mug behind the counter, you've got your chair, you've got all your
Joanne Lockwood: friends around you. Every time you walk in there, it's just so comfortable
Joanne Lockwood: that you, you desire you.
Joanne Lockwood: And if they refurb that bar or change it or you'll swap your chair out,
Joanne Lockwood: you're gonna go, it's not working for me anymore. So it's, it's really
Joanne Lockwood: sweet spot we gotta try and find for people. And I guess when you're,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, you talk about learning and development, when we gotta really tailor
Joanne Lockwood: what we do and how we develop things so that people do
Joanne Lockwood: resonate with that, the content or the topic or even
Joanne Lockwood: the vibe and what you're trying to provide. So
Joanne Lockwood: what techniques do you find most insightful? I guess when you're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to find that sweet spot. So a lot of it is, you know, you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: start this in school and people dictate what your curriculum is,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they dictate what you need to do. Maybe they talk about the why,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: maybe they don't. But I find especially with adult learning and even earlier,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I think we should, the school should incorporate this too. But especially with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: companies, a lot of times they have, they have their mandates, they have to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: there's certain compliance trainings that have to happen, right, for. To make sure you're on
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the up and up. For the most part. What you want to do is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: spark that curiosity and make sure people understand what, what's in it
Amanda Van Der Heiden: for them. They need to be driving it, they need to be involved
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in it, not it happening to them, but really them wanting to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: involve. And in the world we're living in, it's not an option anymore.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I'm a lifelong learner. Some of the, the,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the greats really are because they want to continue to improve themselves and that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: wonderful. The world we're living in now, there's no choice. You have to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: continue to learn and adapt because of the pace of everything moving. We talked a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: little bit about technology before we signed in and, you know, it's, it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: critical now more than ever, but it's people understanding
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what's in it for them and also having autonomy in what they
Amanda Van Der Heiden: get to do and how they get to do it. So it's, it's them being
Amanda Van Der Heiden: able to say, hey, you know, I'd rather have a conversation with a person
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and that's how I'm going to learn the best, or I'm going to get the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: most out of it. Where someone else might want to read the entire manual first
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and then take a test, right? So there's so many different types of learning styles
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and individual things. So I think with organisations, the best you can
Amanda Van Der Heiden: do is really get that what's in it for them, so they really understand what
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they're gaining from it, but then give them some autonomy of how they're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: consuming it, how they're leveraging it? And the challenge and the fun
Amanda Van Der Heiden: part becomes how do you create something that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: individual enough that it's really going to resonate with the person,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: but standard enough that you have an organisation of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people understanding and the same words mean the same
Amanda Van Der Heiden: things and how to do processes in a certain way.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So it's that, it's that fine line you have to walk between giving them their
Amanda Van Der Heiden: individuality and authenticity and, you know, their
Amanda Van Der Heiden: autonomy, but also weaving through the culture and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the collective. How do we move together? You
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned the what's in it for me, the wifm, I call it the, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: it's your product developers, designers, you're
Joanne Lockwood: always focusing on trying to be person centric, so you're developing for
Joanne Lockwood: somebody. And whenever I develop solutions, I'm always thinking, thinking
Joanne Lockwood: in the audience, what's in it for me? Why should I carry on? Why should
Joanne Lockwood: I invest my time in you. And then that's,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, part of the mechanism to resonate with what's going on.
Joanne Lockwood: But you also mentioned that we're living in this world now where
Joanne Lockwood: people are polarised. There's a lot of political
Joanne Lockwood: discourse going on, there's war zones around the
Joanne Lockwood: world. It feels a very unstable world today
Joanne Lockwood: than it did five years ago. There's a lot more negative
Joanne Lockwood: discourse and real challenging conversations going on amongst
Joanne Lockwood: people who are completely polarising
Joanne Lockwood: around beliefs. That's a really difficult thing
Joanne Lockwood: to try and bring into the workplace or even into society.
Joanne Lockwood: How do we create room for those conversations, allow
Joanne Lockwood: free speech, but also create boundaries.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I get this question a lot in a different kind of context of like,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: how can people be authentic? And it's a very
Amanda Van Der Heiden: similar thing is, you know, I talk about being who you are,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truly. However, you also have to realise you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: with people, you're with people, other groups of people and working with different
Amanda Van Der Heiden: types of people who may have varying beliefs. And so a lot of people say,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: well, I'm just being authentic, I'm just being real, I'm just being me. And that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: fine. But what you need to be able to do, and you know
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what more advanced people can do, is instead of just being
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the, this is, this is the raw me and this is how I'm going to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: be all the time. You have to realise that how you show up in the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: world is going to impact other people and influence other people. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so what I try to be is I always try to be authentically myself. Obviously
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I am who I am. However, there's a way that I can be true to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: myself but also be respectful of somebody else. So for example, I am
Amanda Van Der Heiden: absolutely an extrovert. You can probably tell for any of those watching, I'm moving around
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in my chair, I'm talking with my hands. It's also a New York thing. However,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I know that when I'm in front of a bunch of technical people, engineers and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: against the stereotype, but it's tends to be a little bit true. You know, they
Amanda Van Der Heiden: want much more. They don't want the information as big
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and as colourful, they want the data, they want the facts. And so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's knowing your audience, it's knowing who you're speaking to. And when I say
Amanda Van Der Heiden: audience, I don't necessarily mean like a true audience. All it might be, but it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: more of like if you're in a meeting with 10 people or if you're having
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a one on one conversation with a person, right, Understanding their
Amanda Van Der Heiden: preference their communication styles because I know that's going to get the most.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I am who I am. However, I know that I can be
Amanda Van Der Heiden: overwhelming to some people in my true state, or quote unquote
Amanda Van Der Heiden: true state. And so I know how to truly be me, but also adapt to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: give them the space of what they need to be successful too. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that's really, that's really where you want to be. Is that being
Amanda Van Der Heiden: true to who you are and showing up, but ensuring that you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: also being the best you can be for others around you. Because again,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that's how you come together, that's how you bring people together. Instead of this
Amanda Van Der Heiden: divisive this way or that way, it's, this is how I am.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I am an extrovert. I do talk of my hands, but I realised that, that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and especially when people say, well, I don't want to change who I am, you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: know, just because I'm around certain people or whatever the case may be. But the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truth is, is what all people want, including yourself, is to be heard and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: understood. So if your goal, your real goal is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to communicate effectively so you're conveying your message to somebody
Amanda Van Der Heiden: else, then you do want to take note of this. Because if you're waving
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your hands and talking really loud and fast, they're not going to receive the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: message you're trying to deliver. So if you still be you and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: still give the message, but do it in a way where they can actually hear
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you and actually understand what you're trying to gain, then you start to have
Amanda Van Der Heiden: common ground and understanding. So you're truly being yourself, but
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you're doing it in a way that the other person can receive the information and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that's, it's a hard line to walk. But that's what I try to explain to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people is that that's, you know, people think, well, I'm just going to be me
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and if people don't like it, they can just shove off. Right? But
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you're missing out because you're not making the connection. You're not
Amanda Van Der Heiden: able to put people first and understand,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: okay, well how can we come together and have a thoughtful, respectful
Amanda Van Der Heiden: conversation or whatever the case may be? Yeah, the best conversations are
Joanne Lockwood: where both parties put the effort in
Joanne Lockwood: to communicate and be able to listen and
Joanne Lockwood: speak in a way that the other party is going to understand.
Joanne Lockwood: And it always reminds me, I don't dunno how old you are, but
Joanne Lockwood: I remember dial up Internet, you know, the AOL, the CompuServe days
Joanne Lockwood: of the 90s and your modem used to Make a screeching noise and it
Joanne Lockwood: all this kind of really buzzing noise and then the other one would kick in
Joanne Lockwood: and he'd screech back and then this modem would screech and the other modem would
Joanne Lockwood: screech. Eventually you'd go, eh, ee, oh ee, aw. And then it would connect.
Joanne Lockwood: And that bit there when they're making that eeyore noise is where the,
Joanne Lockwood: that's where they're communicating, how fast they can speak, what the error correction
Joanne Lockwood: is, all those other things. So those two modems had to negotiate the
Joanne Lockwood: protocol that they could speak in and then they could, once they negotiated the protocol
Joanne Lockwood: they could then speak. So I always think that as humans we need to that
Joanne Lockwood: e awe eat or eat or bit at the beginning so we understand what our
Joanne Lockwood: styles are. And you know, you're waving your hands around a bit too
Joanne Lockwood: much, it's freaking me out. I'll move my hands down. I
Joanne Lockwood: also have to recognise that you are going to move your hands and you communicate
Joanne Lockwood: better that way. And I have to sort of adapt my style as well. And
Joanne Lockwood: then at the end of that, hopefully we can then communicate without swiping off and
Joanne Lockwood: going, oh no, I can't handle this anymore. Yeah, move on to the next TikTok.
Joanne Lockwood: That's the emotional intelligence in this, isn't it? We're trying to really
Joanne Lockwood: put ourselves in a place where we communicate effectively.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Absolutely. And one of the things I always like to remind people of is, you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: know, especially from psychology, it's people judge other people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: based off of their actions, but they judge themselves based off their intentions.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So for example, if I'm late to something, right, I'm like, oh, you know, oh,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I had a crazy day and I'm not usually late. I don't see myself as
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a late person, but I was, there was traffic and I was rushing around. But
Amanda Van Der Heiden: when you're the person, when someone else walks in the room late, you're like, oh,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they don't. They disrespect me my time. They're not showing up,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they're not. And so it's, it's an important reminder that cheque
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your perspective because a lot of times you're judging other people based
Amanda Van Der Heiden: off of what you're physically seeing, like a one instance thing. And you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: judge yourself based off of your own intentions. And so if we can
Amanda Van Der Heiden: even take a step forward, forward to kind of bridge the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: gap, if you are, we're going to do better with our communications
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and our connections. Yeah, that was. Reminds me of HR
Joanne Lockwood: people. They're quick to judge, you know, when someone's
Joanne Lockwood: late in, or we put you on a warning, you know, we've made a note
Joanne Lockwood: of that. What we should be doing is checking in with people.
Joanne Lockwood: So working out where they're at, what's going on in your life. Not
Joanne Lockwood: do you know you're late. It's like, how are you doing today? Is everything okay?
Joanne Lockwood: You know, you've had, is your home life okay? What's going on? You go, I
Joanne Lockwood: missed the bus and I, I, I had to drop my child off at the
Joanne Lockwood: care and they weren't there for me. The person cancelled on me and
Joanne Lockwood: it started raining. I didn't have an umbrella and it's like, oh, I've just got
Joanne Lockwood: in. Oh, God, I'm soaking wet. You go,
Joanne Lockwood: I get it. It's one of those things. It's not a deliberate act. You weren't
Joanne Lockwood: being lazy, you weren't being careless. So we need to be
Joanne Lockwood: quicker to ask people where they're at, what's going on, what's going on in their
Joanne Lockwood: life. Show an interest in somebody and not just judge them. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's really, really important. As I say, a lot of companies, a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: HR people straight to disciplinary, rather than meeting people where they're.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: At, seek to understand first, for sure. And also a lot
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of times I'm reminding senior leaders, like, why are we doing this? Why do
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they have to be in at 8am, right? Or why do they have to be
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in XYZ? Like, what is this accomplishing? And what we found is that, you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: know, we're working off of outdated models here and we saw
Amanda Van Der Heiden: this when, you know, when Covid hit and with hybrid work, we saw all of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: this where people didn't have a choice, they had to kind of show up with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: where they're at. But, you know, so many organisations and the best organisations
Amanda Van Der Heiden: took note of that and said, well, I can have someone sit in a desk
Amanda Van Der Heiden: for eight hours or I can figure out what's going to set them up for
Amanda Van Der Heiden: success. Because ultimately, if your people are set up for success, not only are you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: going to get better output, but you're also going to have a company that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: thriving because the people are thriving. And I remind people all the time, there's no
Amanda Van Der Heiden: such thing as an organisation, it's a collection of people. So if you, if you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: want your organisation to do well, you want your people to do well. If your
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people are doing well, your organisation will do well. It's, it's math,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's, it's been shown Study, study, study after study is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: shown that the more people set up for. Are set for success,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the more better the profit margins. The like, everything
Amanda Van Der Heiden: falls into place. When you really, truly put people first,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you see unbelievable results. And I think people lose sight of that.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And that's the most. That's one of the biggest things I'm constantly reminding people,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: because a lot of times I'm brought into organisation during a time of change, whether
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's like a system implementation, we're rolling out AI, or
Amanda Van Der Heiden: we're doing a culture transformation or we're doing some big initiative.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Right. So that's usually when people bring me in to help bring everyone together and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: get the results that they're looking to get. And so I have to remind people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that it's a lot when people go through change, when human beings go through
Amanda Van Der Heiden: change, there is a process that needs to be followed and you might not
Amanda Van Der Heiden: think, oh, I don't want people to get emotional about this. It's just, we're, we're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: just changing this one thing. Sure. But people might not see it that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: way. Right. So some people are going to be your early adapters and jump right
Amanda Van Der Heiden: on the change wagon. Right. But some are going to be a little bit slower.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And again, it's that if you can set your people up for success,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your business will see the results of that 1000% of the time
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's come. It's bringing that awareness and understanding
Amanda Van Der Heiden: into. And that's kind of a piece of the. Organising the chaos too, is like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: understanding what people need to be successful, setting them up for success and supporting
Amanda Van Der Heiden: them throughout. I'm pleased you mentioned the chaos of COVID and how
Joanne Lockwood: we had to adapt really, really quickly and, you know, the
Joanne Lockwood: focusing on people, wellbeing, all these strategies.
Joanne Lockwood: But what seems to have happened in the last 18 months is we
Joanne Lockwood: seem to have got amnesia. All the things we learned about
Joanne Lockwood: valuing our people, looking after our people, motivating our people,
Joanne Lockwood: caring deeply and then they believed us with authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: We flushed that down the toilet. We see all these organisations rolling it all back
Joanne Lockwood: now, back to work policies, commuting,
Joanne Lockwood: environmental hits, whatever it may be. What's going on?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: The pendulum swings. So in education and politics, they always say that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you go one extreme and then you flip back to the other extreme. Instead of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: learning from both sides and coming to a better middle.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It's, it's, it's a. It's typical. When you look through history
Amanda Van Der Heiden: like it. Constantly streams,
Joanne Lockwood: is it politically motivated or power motivated? Do you think that?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So one of the first things that came about
Amanda Van Der Heiden: with the COVID night with COVID and people having to work from
Amanda Van Der Heiden: home and all this stuff is all of a sudden they're like, oh, there's communication
Amanda Van Der Heiden: issues, there's leadership issues. I was like, that's always been there. The difference is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the best leaders, the best communicators,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: pre Covid knew they have to do it.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: There's an effort that goes into it, there's strategy that goes into making sure
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people are heard and you're setting things up and there's success in that. Right?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: But the people who are the water cooler managers, where they see you in the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: hallway or they look over your shoulder or the micromanagers and they
Amanda Van Der Heiden: really had a extra hard time when people weren't physically there and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they couldn't rely on those like we'll say lazy tactics but
Amanda Van Der Heiden: those in the moment tactics. Now I'm a people person. I miss people.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Like I love. I was eight years working from home pre Covid so I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: was doing a lot of workshops at that time to set people up for success
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of how do you work from home successfully and how do you lead
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people when they're working from home and all these things. And you have to. The
Amanda Van Der Heiden: name of the game is intention intentional. And so a lot of times companies will
Amanda Van Der Heiden: say, well we want the culture and we want to bring people back into the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: office. And I get it, I missed people too when we were in our little
Amanda Van Der Heiden: bubble. But again, you have a, a huge
Amanda Van Der Heiden: background of people, a very diverse, varied group.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: How do you set them up for success? So somebody who really
Amanda Van Der Heiden: enjoys their time in the office, you know, that's great. There's other
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people who are going to do so much better work not in the office. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so the best organisations are figuring out a way to adapt to make
Amanda Van Der Heiden: their people as successful as they can be. And so, you know, some of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: them, I know like I've heard from other organisations that are doing it, some of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: my clients are doing mandatory return to the office and you know,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they have an idea of they want everyone together and the answer
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is, you know, if that's, if that's the priority,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: well then people are going to either self select out of that because
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of the world that they know or you know, or you're not going to get
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your the most and the best out of, out of all of your population.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And that's the answer on question. And that's the reality, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: It's often dictated by the style or thinking of the
Joanne Lockwood: leaders, senior leaders or middle management. And
Joanne Lockwood: the group think Kicks in, said, oh no, we can never succeed unless people have,
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, have those watercooler conversations. And I used
Joanne Lockwood: to say back in, you know, back in post Covid days, it was
Joanne Lockwood: what we need to do is we need to find a way of engaging with
Joanne Lockwood: people on a person centric way. So you said you're an extrovert, you thrive around
Joanne Lockwood: people. And we tend to find a lot of our leaders tend to
Joanne Lockwood: be, well, extrovert, passing. Whether they are truly extrovert,
Joanne Lockwood: we don't know. But there's this belief you have to be loud and shouty and
Joanne Lockwood: omnipresent to be successful. And we need to
Joanne Lockwood: celebrate the passive, the introvert, the people who just want to
Joanne Lockwood: quietly get on. I'm a high functioning introvert, I don't mind being
Joanne Lockwood: extrovert when I need to be. I love working from home, I love sitting in
Joanne Lockwood: my office here, I love chatting to people online. I don't need to thrive, I
Joanne Lockwood: develop my own culture in my own home. I don't need your culture in the
Joanne Lockwood: office. That's what we've been losing now.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, and you need all types. And so a lot of times one of the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: models I work with is disc but there's all these different personality type models
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and really at the end of the day what it is is all types. People
Amanda Van Der Heiden: say, well, which is the best type? There is no best type. Everyone adds value
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and that's the whole point and that's the leader's job really is to be how
Amanda Van Der Heiden: can I make all these people successful? How can I get the best work out
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of all of them? And that is to set them up where they feel the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: best, they do the best work. And again, there's not one style that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: better. Don't believe the hype. If someone says there's a better type, there's not because
Amanda Van Der Heiden: we all have different strengths and, and so why don't we leverage our strengths
Amanda Van Der Heiden: instead of trying to focus on, you know, this weakness or that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: weakness or what, you know, people are quick to go into like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: improvement, like fix this, do that, fix that. But if we
Amanda Van Der Heiden: can leverage people's strengths and really let them
Amanda Van Der Heiden: truly be in their strength, you're gonna see the best
Amanda Van Der Heiden: results because it's complimentary. You need all, all the different
Amanda Van Der Heiden: types and roles in order for it to succeed. Because again, study after
Amanda Van Der Heiden: study has shown and the results are proof. In the pudding, right, is that the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: organisations that have more diverse thinking. You talked about groupthink earlier, but if you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: have more diverse, if you are, you need to be at least as diverse as
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your client base from an organisation perspective. So the more diverse
Amanda Van Der Heiden: thoughts and viewpoints and backgrounds and training that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you have, the better the end product or end result
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is going to be. And the companies that do that, that incorporate
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that have seen time and time again that improve their
Amanda Van Der Heiden: profit margins, improve their sales because you have more
Amanda Van Der Heiden: different ideas saying like hey this might work for this type of person but it's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: not going to work for that. So how do we make sure to think through
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that and think of different perspectives? Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. And
Joanne Lockwood: I just wish other people would hear that. And that's the frustration.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, well they're hearing it now from us and I'm constantly talking to leaders about
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it. So it's a daily conversation. I remember pre Covid
Joanne Lockwood: that's going back a bit these days. Pre Covid it boiled down to trust.
Joanne Lockwood: If I can't see you, I can't trust you. It's the
Joanne Lockwood: policing, people wanting a policy. It's. I remember being people being
Joanne Lockwood: said that they hadn't earned enough good boy or good
Joanne Lockwood: girl credits in order to work from home yet they needed to be a more
Joanne Lockwood: senior in their role or they must have worked at least six months before they
Joanne Lockwood: were allowed to work from home. Because I need to make sure that I can
Joanne Lockwood: trust you to do that. And I think over Covid it must have, it must
Joanne Lockwood: have really. People must have really struggled with that twitchy that I
Joanne Lockwood: about being seen and I think people just jumped in that bandwagon.
Joanne Lockwood: I also wonder if some of it is political that what
Joanne Lockwood: happens many city, downtown
Joanne Lockwood: environments, cafes, transport links, all
Joanne Lockwood: these sort of value add services that support businesses.
Joanne Lockwood: We're going out of business again, bust employment issues. It's almost like
Joanne Lockwood: we need to get people in the office because we've got people to service and
Joanne Lockwood: support them in the office. And certainly in London,
Joanne Lockwood: the metro, the underground in London was running at a
Joanne Lockwood: huge loss because people just weren't in London anymore. I
Joanne Lockwood: do wonder if some of it was politically motivated and to.
Joanne Lockwood: To get the money back into those capitals. Otherwise they've just become
Joanne Lockwood: wastelands. Yeah. In New York City they talked about real estate, like why
Amanda Van Der Heiden: are we paying for all this real estate? But that's backwards thinking. So if you.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So when, when companies, when leaders would tell me this, well, I really want people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: back in the office. Is that okay, great, make them want to be back in
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the office. What are you going to do for them for them to want to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: be back and have that engagement or for the, you know,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Manhattan real estate people, they were saying like, well, okay,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: but there's other ways that you could save money if you give up your lease
Amanda Van Der Heiden: or sell your building or whatever. So there's always a way, but at the end
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of it, it's remembering why are we doing this and how are we setting people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: up for success? Because that's really what the critical thing is. And so when
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you hear that noise and it's just like an individual person, right, we have all
Amanda Van Der Heiden: these things competing for our attention and our time and our energy. And so if
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you really get clear on your why, on your priorities,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: then it's like, okay, that's a symptom of, that's not the root, that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: not the real reason, right? So a lot of times people operate on like surface
Amanda Van Der Heiden: things when really if you just dig a little bit deeper, you realise that there's,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's actually a different thing than you think it is. I like to do the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: why exercise. So if you, if you ask a question to yourself, to a leader
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and you say, okay, here's, here's what we're going to do, we're going to do
Amanda Van Der Heiden: this initiative, okay, why? What do you hope to gain from it? You know, even
Amanda Van Der Heiden: goal setting, right? So a lot of people like to set goals. I love it.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: But why are you setting the goal, right? And so if you ask five whys,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so if you say, okay, well, why this goal or why this initiative? What do
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you hope to gain from this? And they answer it and then you ask it
Amanda Van Der Heiden: again and again and again, you'd be shocked at the real reason you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: get to, or the deeper level meaning. And so a lot
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of times people are solving for things, they're solving for the wrong problem. And so
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I always like to take like a step back and say, okay, but let's actually
Amanda Van Der Heiden: analyse this why this initiative, why this goal? And then, and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: then you can reverse engineer what the real problem is so you can do
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a proper solve for it instead of a knee jerk reaction. And the interesting thing
Joanne Lockwood: is when you ask that why question maybe one
Joanne Lockwood: or two levels down, the person says, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know, right? I really don't know why
Joanne Lockwood: actually, because we've always done it that way or because
Joanne Lockwood: that's the way I believe we should be acting, but I don't know why we
Joanne Lockwood: should be doing that. And you see it in politics all the time. You think,
Joanne Lockwood: well, why are we doing that? And you think you're just doing it because
Joanne Lockwood: it's politics. There's not Actually a logic to it. You're just trying to
Joanne Lockwood: win or something, or trying to achieve something. Yeah. It's important to understand
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the real reason. And when you do, when you have those thoughtful
Amanda Van Der Heiden: conversations or exercises, you realise, oh, wow,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: there is definitely a better way to solve for this. So it's interesting. People like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to jump into fixing or solving, but if you just
Amanda Van Der Heiden: ask a few extra questions and you get to a deeper circle, back
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to deeper understanding and really, truly understanding what a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: person or a group or whatever is saying, an organisation is saying,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: then it becomes so much more clear on what needs to be to actually happen
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and what's actually going to move you forward and make you better. One of the
Joanne Lockwood: frustrating things I found when I used to work for people
Joanne Lockwood: was the leader would always keep back pieces
Joanne Lockwood: of the jigsaw. So you never saw the full picture and almost
Joanne Lockwood: said the leader had the power or the control to say,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, I'm the only one who knows the whole storey. I want you to keep
Joanne Lockwood: working on this. There was a number of occasions where if only
Joanne Lockwood: that little bit of extra information had been shared, I'd be. And I had the
Joanne Lockwood: whole picture, I would have able to be under. Better understanding what the end
Joanne Lockwood: goal was, rather than getting towards the end goal and said, no, no,
Joanne Lockwood: that's not what we're after. What are you after? Well, we needed to have five
Joanne Lockwood: wheels, not four wheels. Why do you want that? Well, that's part of the design
Joanne Lockwood: criteria. You didn't tell me that. Oh, I know. It doesn't matter. You've
Joanne Lockwood: got. We want you to do that. So I think, again, leadership comes down to
Joanne Lockwood: trust and listening and sharing and being open and that's where we
Joanne Lockwood: often make our mistakes. Yeah. And you would have been more motivated, probably.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And so that's why the best leaders do communicate that they do have that
Amanda Van Der Heiden: transparency, because they know that if you're understanding the reason
Amanda Van Der Heiden: behind something, you're going to be more on board with it.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: You're going to be more likely to actually contribute successfully. Yeah, no, I
Joanne Lockwood: agree. I mean, we just need to fix the world, don't we? We need to.
Joanne Lockwood: We need to take, take this and get every leader to think about it. But
Joanne Lockwood: I've talked to many leaders on this podcast and everyone I talk
Joanne Lockwood: to, maybe it's just I'm. I'm lucky. But everyone has this kind of same,
Joanne Lockwood: same mantras. Yeah. Everyone gets it.
Joanne Lockwood: Are we the only unique people? But surely everyone believes that they
Joanne Lockwood: get it. Why aren't we doing something with it? Is it just
Joanne Lockwood: culture? I think People don't realise how much influence they actually do have
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and so they feel like, oh, this is overwhelming. And especially like the types of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: organisations I work with, you're talking thousands and thousands and thousands of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: people from different countries. And it does. When you look at it, it looks like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: a Herculean task, like how. How am I going to change culture
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in an entire organisation of 10,000 people by. With one
Amanda Van Der Heiden: person? The answer is you don't, but you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: do. But once you start, you create momentum, you create the
Amanda Van Der Heiden: conversation, you create that open mindset and then
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you start to gain momentum and that's how you. That's how all change happens.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Actually, I have a favourite book that I love, like the Power Of Habit by
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Charles Duhig. Definitely cheque it out if you don't know it. But it's such a
Amanda Van Der Heiden: fun book because it talks about how does an individual change, how does an
Amanda Van Der Heiden: organisation change and how does society change? And it's so. But simple is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: not easy and that's what people mix up sometimes. It's. It's not
Amanda Van Der Heiden: easy, but it is simple. It's getting to the root,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: understanding, figuring out the pattern and finding a solve
Amanda Van Der Heiden: for it. And so it seems overly simplistic, but again,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: simple is not easy. It's. It. But it's, you know,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's about having those conversations and keeping it going. Would you mind me go back
Joanne Lockwood: to a bit of your own. You said earlier
Joanne Lockwood: on, when we were chatting around this, you brought up in these two different locations
Joanne Lockwood: to polar opposite. You're kind of lost in the middle there somewhere.
Joanne Lockwood: And now you're working in a global organisation, across time zones, across countries,
Joanne Lockwood: across sectors and industry. So you're constantly in this state
Joanne Lockwood: of flux and having to mould and adapt to
Joanne Lockwood: different situations. That itself must be
Joanne Lockwood: quite stressful. How do you cope with that? Actually, I love it. It's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so interesting. What I love about what I do is I get to work with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: all different types of people from all different backgrounds, from all different perspectives. And that's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the fun. I don't have two days that are the same ever, ever.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And so that is what keeps me going because it's so fascinating and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: interesting and you learn, just naturally learn so much because you have
Amanda Van Der Heiden: to. And you have to kind of have that mindset to go with it,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you know, to really, like, embrace it and figure out where this
Amanda Van Der Heiden: is coming from and seek to understand, like we talked about. And
Amanda Van Der Heiden: so it's not stressful for me. It's,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's, it's. It's more like Some people say stress, some people say
Amanda Van Der Heiden: adrenaline. Like, you get adrenaline from that. And it's all. It's all about mindset and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: perspective, right? So you can be in a situation, be like, oh, I'm on deadline,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I'm really stressed out right now. Or you'd be like, ooh, I have a deadline
Amanda Van Der Heiden: and this is gonna fuel me, you know, and so people don't realise how much
Amanda Van Der Heiden: control they have over their life. And really, it starts. And I talk a lot
Amanda Van Der Heiden: about this is mindset and perspective. So you can take any
Amanda Van Der Heiden: situation and flip it in the sense of understanding. If
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you're feeling really negative about something, if you're feeling really challenged by something or
Amanda Van Der Heiden: overwhelmed by something, flip it and just say,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: okay, well, what if this is, you know, teaching me
Amanda Van Der Heiden: something? What if this is opening up my eyes to something? What if. And when
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you take that, you take back control. So even when you're. We talked about earlier,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: in an uncontrollable environment or an environment that's out of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your own control, it's cliche, but it's cliche for a reason.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: You can control yourself in the way that you look at the situation.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And that's really the difference between the people who are successful and the people who
Amanda Van Der Heiden: just sit down and give up. Is there a default
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda under all of those hats? Is there a person that.
Joanne Lockwood: When you're not being driven to achieve or you're not being on the
Joanne Lockwood: receiving end of a demand, what is Amanda's natural
Joanne Lockwood: state? Where are you in there? So it's.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Well, always. So I love continuous improvement. I really do. But I would
Amanda Van Der Heiden: say that the. The deep hack for the people listening is you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: have to know yourself and you have to be conscious and aware of your
Amanda Van Der Heiden: thought processes. And that's really the biggest hack of all. Because if you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: can be conscious to it, a lot of people, you know, we think. And that's.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Again, I talked about the power of habit. But when you. A lot of people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: think that they're making choices every day, but they're not. If you look at people's
Amanda Van Der Heiden: patterns, it's. It's pattern. If you look at what people do every day, they think
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they're making a choice, but they're not actually making a choice. And so the first
Amanda Van Der Heiden: step is like realising what it is that you're doing.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And then the second thing is really to take action on it and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: do something about it, right? So if you're sick of this or you're sick of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that or you want to change something, you know, people have a lot of ideas,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: but they don't do the follow through. So for me it's like the awareness piece.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Then it's the, the next step is, okay, well what am I going to do
Amanda Van Der Heiden: about it? And you need both. You can't just. A lot of people are
Amanda Van Der Heiden: unaware so it is very important for them to become conscious of it. But once
Amanda Van Der Heiden: they're aware, a lot of people say, well, that's just who I am, that's just
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what I do. But it's that, okay, what are you going to do about it?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Like, you can make it better. And again, it starts with
Amanda Van Der Heiden: mindset. And you know, people talk about like,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: oh, I'm just going to wish to win the lottery. And it's like, okay, well
Amanda Van Der Heiden: that's not actually accomplishing anything. Right? And back to our earlier point, why do you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: want to win the lottery? Do you actually need to win the lottery to fulfil
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what you're trying to fulfil? And so that's the two part breakdown of like
Amanda Van Der Heiden: overall across people, across all the things I've
Amanda Van Der Heiden: worked on. It's if you're aware of what you're doing, if you're at your
Amanda Van Der Heiden: actions and your mindset and then you can take it and put
Amanda Van Der Heiden: action behind it, like intention, you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: golden. You'll be able to do whatever you set your mind to because of that.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And that's what I would recommend to everybody, is to just to notice, to be
Amanda Van Der Heiden: aware of how you're framing a situation. You know, people
Amanda Van Der Heiden: like. Even a slight shift in wording can significantly impact
Amanda Van Der Heiden: your behaviour. If you start recognising it, you can break
Amanda Van Der Heiden: any pattern or you can build any amazing pattern. So I always think
Joanne Lockwood: about the lottery. I don't buy lottery tickets to win
Joanne Lockwood: the lottery per se. I buy a lottery ticket or
Joanne Lockwood: hope for dreams because if I never buy a
Joanne Lockwood: lottery ticket, how can I ever say if I won the lottery I would
Joanne Lockwood: or I'd love to buy that when I win the lottery, if I never
Joanne Lockwood: enter, I lose all those aspirations, all those dreams or that hope or
Joanne Lockwood: the conversations you have with your partner. Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could
Joanne Lockwood: do this? We can dream about that. The lottery is more about hope
Joanne Lockwood: than it ever is around winning. And I think that's the power
Joanne Lockwood: of those sort of things. Okay, we've got to be careful it doesn't become dangerous.
Joanne Lockwood: And the gambling and you know, it becomes a, you become driven by that hope
Joanne Lockwood: and aspiration. But yeah, it's about hope, it's about dreams, I think.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's all about that. I think that comes down to what we talked about
Joanne Lockwood: earlier. The belongingness, the need to, need
Joanne Lockwood: to feel part of connection, our safe zone,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it may be, whether it's our shut the front door and have a quiet
Joanne Lockwood: weekend and know what it's going to be. But yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: when we think about our leaders, our managers, our teams, what can they,
Joanne Lockwood: what can they do? Because you talked about that effectively, I would talk about from
Joanne Lockwood: an eq, an emotional intelligence point of view is the first is self awareness,
Joanne Lockwood: self management, recognising other people's communication style and then be
Joanne Lockwood: able to, then be able to negotiate and build stronger relationships. So
Joanne Lockwood: how can people who are listening to this now take some action from this?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, so I love it. And some of the best leadership courses we've designed
Amanda Van Der Heiden: over the years is first understand yourself. You need to be able to lead yourself,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: understand yourself, know yourself, lead yourself. Then you can understand,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: know others, lead others. And then you can.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It goes individual, then it goes person and then it goes
Amanda Van Der Heiden: teams and organisations. Right. And so what I would say
Amanda Van Der Heiden: today, this is an action for you today is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: pay conscious attention about the wording you're using,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the way you're approaching things. Do you, do you have,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: how are you showing up? Record it. So a lot of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: companies will say my people need time management. It's not normally a time management issue.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: It's usually a communication issue, a leadership issue or a vision issue.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: And so if you track this for a few days, you'll start to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: see certain trends. And then if you take the action of
Amanda Van Der Heiden: saying this is what I'm going to focus on, you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: going to see improvement. But I'm a big believer in tracking everything because
Amanda Van Der Heiden: what gets, what gets measured gets managed. Right. So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: again, it's consciously today, think about how you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: reacting to people, think about the thoughts in your head, think about the actions you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: do, the choices you're making and you would be shocked once you, once
Amanda Van Der Heiden: you put a couple of days into this, you'll start to see certain trends and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: say, okay, what do I want to do with it? What do I want to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: focus on? And then actually put action in it. So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: reverse engineer figure out, okay, this is what I'm going to do differently. So
Amanda Van Der Heiden: for example, I, I have two children.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: My, one of, my daughter, my oldest. I never said the word no to, they're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: like, you don't say no to your 2 year old. Is it no? I don't
Amanda Van Der Heiden: say the word no. I tell her what to do, what not to do. If
Amanda Van Der Heiden: I told her what not to do. That's the first thing she would do and
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it would become a big fight. So when she was two years old, I would
Amanda Van Der Heiden: literally focus on what's the inverse saying,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: don't do that. Instead of saying, don't do that, I'm saying, here's where you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: should focus. Right. And just that small tweak, it's, it's,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: it seems simple. Again, bull's not easy. So you focus on it and you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: realise you get so, so much better just by being aware of the wording you're
Amanda Van Der Heiden: using, the way your thoughts are processing certain things. When you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: reframe it and you start to in some muscle, like anything else, you have to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: practise, practise, practise. But yeah, so that's a specific example that I do. I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: constantly try to flip my language so that it's a positive instead of a negative
Amanda Van Der Heiden: because it yields better results. And so it seems simple, but you
Amanda Van Der Heiden: don't realise how much, so much you're saying phrases in a negative instead
Amanda Van Der Heiden: of a positive. And so that's what I would challenge everyone to do is
Amanda Van Der Heiden: be aware, take action. So deflect and distract.
Joanne Lockwood: Not know. For 2 year olds, yes. And sometimes for 42 year olds too.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: But it's, yeah, be aware,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: action behind. It and personal accountability. You have the
Joanne Lockwood: power in you, you have to want to. Yeah,
Amanda Van Der Heiden: absolutely. And ask yourself why a lot and then ask it
Joanne Lockwood: again and keep going until you actually figure out what it is. And if you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know why, then stop and replan.
Joanne Lockwood: Imagine. Just be fascinating and chat to you. We could, we could carry on. We've
Joanne Lockwood: been naturally away before we went online. How could people get a hold of you?
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So I have a giveaway for everyone. I love organising the cast and I've spent
Amanda Van Der Heiden: the last two decades helping thousands of people from all over the world and I
Amanda Van Der Heiden: wanted to give you actionable templates that you can use today.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: So go to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: www.gtdscorp.com
Amanda Van Der Heiden: giveaway and you get a free giveaway. My gift to you. And I'm excited to
Amanda Van Der Heiden: hear how you leverage them to organise your chaos.
Joanne Lockwood: I'll make sure I put that in the show notes so you can search that
Joanne Lockwood: down. And of course you're on LinkedIn as well, is that right? Yes, of course.
Amanda Van Der Heiden: Always happy to connect with everyone and hear their questions or thoughts. That's
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda Van Der Heiden. H E I D E N.
Joanne Lockwood: Very Dutch sounding name from a person who was raised in Kentucky, lived in New
Joanne Lockwood: York and now is in Rhode Island. So, yeah, and there's chaos in
Joanne Lockwood: there somewhere, obviously. Always. So,
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and good luck with trying to
Joanne Lockwood: solve that chaos. Thank you so much. Have a great day, everyone.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye. As we bring this conversation to a
Joanne Lockwood: close, I want to express my deepest joy, gratitude to you,
Joanne Lockwood: our listener, for lending your ear and heart
Joanne Lockwood: to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a
Joanne Lockwood: chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites
Joanne Lockwood: and become part of our ever growing community driving real
Joanne Lockwood: change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's
Joanne Lockwood: amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts,
Joanne Lockwood: storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears.
Joanne Lockwood: Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and
Joanne Lockwood: unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one
Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.