Joanne Lockwood: Foreign.
Hannah Cohen: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Hannah Cohen: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Hannah Cohen: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Hannah Cohen: inclusion, belonging and societal transformation.
Hannah Cohen: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone
Hannah Cohen: not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.
Hannah Cohen: Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge
Hannah Cohen: the status quo and share storeys that resonate
Hannah Cohen: deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're
Hannah Cohen: sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's
Hannah Cohen: connect, reflect and inspire action together.
Hannah Cohen: Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out
Hannah Cohen: to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Hannah Cohen: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Hannah Cohen: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Hannah Cohen: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Hannah Cohen: And today is episode 197 with the
Hannah Cohen: title Beyond Sight. And I have the
Hannah Cohen: absolute honour and privilege to welcome Hannah Cohen.
Hannah Cohen: Hannah is a visually impaired inclusion coach who empowers
Hannah Cohen: teams, leaders and individuals to understand and support
Hannah Cohen: hidden disabilities through workshops and one to one
Hannah Cohen: coaching. When I asked Hannah to describe a superpower, she said
Hannah Cohen: that it is turning Live Challenge into practical
Hannah Cohen: inclusion. Hello, Hannah, welcome to the show.
Joanne Lockwood: Hi, Jo, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no, it's absolutely
Hannah Cohen: superb. I can almost hear you. Are you around the
Hannah Cohen: corner? Maybe you're not. Where are you based in the country?
Joanne Lockwood: Manchester. Manchester? Well, I'm in Portsmouth, so probably just
Hannah Cohen: a bit out of. Bit out of hearing range. So you don't sound very
Hannah Cohen: Mancunian. The outskirts. Posh bit. Posh
Hannah Cohen: bit. Possibly, Possibly, possibly. You couldn't say. You couldn't.
Hannah Cohen: And I understand we're also joined by
Hannah Cohen: Manny. Yes, Manny the Cavapouson is around
Joanne Lockwood: and. About, so we may have an interlude with a bit of yelping and
Hannah Cohen: a bit of earlier I heard the collar flicking and the ears flapping on
Hannah Cohen: the mic. So if we are joined by Manny, we'll welcome him most sincerely because
Hannah Cohen: news, everybody. Special news. I bought myself or ourselves a
Hannah Cohen: cavapoo at the weekend, so we're newly dogged up. So our dog is
Hannah Cohen: in the other room with my wife at the moment. So, yeah, we're well into
Hannah Cohen: the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Poodle
Hannah Cohen: crossbreeds. Yeah. And if Manny barks, maybe she'll.
Joanne Lockwood: He'll set Amber off. She may. Well, she may well join in. Yeah. In which
Hannah Cohen: case I look forward to her being a key part of future episodes. It'll be
Hannah Cohen: the Joe and Amber show in future over. She'll bring the cuteness,
Hannah Cohen: I'll just bring the practicalities. So, Anna, you just. As in the intro
Hannah Cohen: there, we talked about you were visually impaired inclusion coach, and the
Hannah Cohen: authenticity in that is you are visually impaired yourself. Do you. Do you want to
Hannah Cohen: just explain who you are, your storey and your
Hannah Cohen: background? Yeah, definitely. Thank you. So I became visually
Joanne Lockwood: impaired around four and a half to five years ago. I'm actually a
Joanne Lockwood: solicitor and a trained solicitor and since my
Joanne Lockwood: site has changed, it's been very hard to do my job and I
Joanne Lockwood: ended up training to become a coach. I wasn't really sure if it would be
Joanne Lockwood: a career or not, but I thought I'd do some training to keep
Joanne Lockwood: myself more busy and yeah, I just sort of fell in love with
Joanne Lockwood: it. And when I started trying to think how I could sort of niche
Joanne Lockwood: into what direction inclusion coaching just felt really perfect and
Joanne Lockwood: that I could help people who are. Had similar challenges to me and helped
Joanne Lockwood: them navigate their way. Whether it's one to one, people who are struggling
Joanne Lockwood: maybe with a new diagnosis or just struggling with,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, life, which is tough, or may or. And then going
Joanne Lockwood: into teams and companies, helping them work out how to
Joanne Lockwood: best work with each other and work with their own, with their clients
Joanne Lockwood: and then also leaders, how to work with their employees. So, yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: works with everyone, really. That's incredible.
Hannah Cohen: Even with the prevalence now of computing,
Hannah Cohen: tablets, text to speech, all these kind of tools and AI,
Hannah Cohen: it's still quite difficult. I guess as a solicitor,
Hannah Cohen: there's lots of paper, lots of processes to follow, different
Hannah Cohen: websites, different. Is that part of the challenge you faced? Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's. It's really tough. I mean, I've spoken to loads of different solicitors in different
Joanne Lockwood: types of law and asked, you know, to try and see how different people do
Joanne Lockwood: it. It is possible to do it. A lot of people have support workers
Joanne Lockwood: and, you know, the software and my. I work in a very small firm, the
Joanne Lockwood: software isn't very accessible and, you know, some of the big firms, they have a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of extra. Well, as well as the money, they've got more
Joanne Lockwood: staff, more software, different options. Different tools and stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I've used access to work. They've been
Joanne Lockwood: relatively helpful at times, but it's really tricky.
Joanne Lockwood: It's really tricky and it's a different way to work. I've got to listen to
Joanne Lockwood: documents all day in my ear. It's not. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's hard to focus on things like that. You know, you're used to sort of
Joanne Lockwood: scanning Documents with your eyes and you take the important
Joanne Lockwood: things and now can't do that. And it's a whole new
Joanne Lockwood: way of learning. And yeah, it's, I'm not sort of enjoying that.
Joanne Lockwood: So I am actually still working part time as a solicitor. But yeah, I'm really
Joanne Lockwood: hoping my inclusion work takes off and it's, you know, I'm loving it, really
Joanne Lockwood: enjoying it. Yeah. I actually listened to an audio book
Hannah Cohen: in the car yesterday about puppies actually.
Hannah Cohen: So my wife is a book reader. I'm not a book reader. So I bought
Hannah Cohen: my wife the book and I bought myself the audio audible version.
Hannah Cohen: I, I, I knew cause I was picking a puppy up and it was three
Hannah Cohen: hours each way, so I knew I had three hours and the book was four
Hannah Cohen: and a half hours. So I started listening to it. I know exactly what you
Hannah Cohen: mean. The bits I would skim through and even
Hannah Cohen: the audiobook sort of said, I'm going to give you the 10 points to consider
Hannah Cohen: in a minute. And you had to wait. I couldn't just flick ahead and recap
Hannah Cohen: or. So I guess you're faced with. Everything is very
Hannah Cohen: sequential now. It's hard to get a random access of the,
Hannah Cohen: of the info or data you need. You can't flick in back and forwards.
Joanne Lockwood: No, definitely. And I do actually listen to a lot of books, but
Joanne Lockwood: there are some that are, I think, especially in learning. So personal
Joanne Lockwood: development books or educational books, they are meant for,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, going into specific chapters and yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not easy to do that. So yeah, look, it's
Joanne Lockwood: just a new way of learning, but it is, can be a bit tricky. So
Hannah Cohen: you describe yourself as visually impaired. To what
Hannah Cohen: extent has your sight failed? So
Joanne Lockwood: I'm actually registered blind, but I feel like if I say that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: blind, people don't really understand because I can see. And there is
Joanne Lockwood: a real spectrum of blindness. I can see, I can sort
Joanne Lockwood: of see on the screen. But you're blurry, so I don't really see
Joanne Lockwood: detail. I can't see words. So I use a lot of tech to
Joanne Lockwood: read stuff to me on my computer boards, on my phone. And when I'm out
Joanne Lockwood: and about, I use my phone to read things. So luckily I can
Joanne Lockwood: get out and about sort of. I can see the contrast between the pavement and
Joanne Lockwood: the road almost 100% of the time. So, you know, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: lucky about that. But blindness really is a spectrum and people
Joanne Lockwood: think people who are blind see nothing. But you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you never really know, you know, unless you ask. I'm very happy to Be asked,
Joanne Lockwood: but everyone's different. There are people who've had
Hannah Cohen: their optic nerve fail or parts of their brain fail. Maybe
Hannah Cohen: that's. I guess that's when they get almost like the complete blindness, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Just. I'm not sure whether they see black or white or nothing
Hannah Cohen: or. Well, my optic nerves have actually failed. Oh, they.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, yeah, that's part of my condition and, I mean, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know about loads of other conditions. I don't really, you know, know everything, but
Joanne Lockwood: I know that my optic nerves. I think they said they're dead, but,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I can see stuff, so I don't really know how it works, to
Joanne Lockwood: be honest. So you'd lived a good chunk of your
Hannah Cohen: life, and I don't want to give your age away. So you're aware of the
Hannah Cohen: world around you, you've got context to what you can see.
Hannah Cohen: So if you'd have been born this way or
Hannah Cohen: acquired this at a very early age, you'd have less context or at least you
Hannah Cohen: know, what the sky looks like, the grass looks like. So when you.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah, whatever vision you have left, you can still
Hannah Cohen: contextualise it and get. Get some joy from that, from that image, I
Hannah Cohen: guess. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel so lucky that I still have
Joanne Lockwood: enough sight to enjoy, you know, seeing things. I mean, it.
Joanne Lockwood: Look, it's completely different, but I can still. I love going to the beach and
Joanne Lockwood: I still love going to the beach and you see it, but it's more the
Joanne Lockwood: feeling and the noise, you know, all the senses, really.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I. But I do feel lucky that I
Joanne Lockwood: still have enough sight to do a lot of things. Can you recognise
Hannah Cohen: people that you know still? Yes and no. I recognise
Joanne Lockwood: mostly the people I see all the time, but then some people,
Joanne Lockwood: I think, you know, I think I'm seeing someone and I'm not. And I do
Joanne Lockwood: see funny things, you know, I think I'm seeing something. I remember saying to the
Joanne Lockwood: kids recently, what's that over there? I think we were stood outside the apple
Joanne Lockwood: shop in town, said, what's that? And they said, it's a child. I went,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, thought it was a statue. So, you know, you're
Joanne Lockwood: not really sure sometimes what you're seeing, what surprised you. The most in
Hannah Cohen: society around your condition. So you said to yourself,
Hannah Cohen: you don't want to describe yourself as blind, you prefer visually impaired, because
Hannah Cohen: blindness is misunderstood. So by saying visually impaired, you're almost implying
Hannah Cohen: that it's not absolute. Do people lack understanding? I
Joanne Lockwood: guess I think the thing is. And also why I've
Joanne Lockwood: you know, some of my works around hidden disabilities is because
Joanne Lockwood: often in some ways, you know, it is
Joanne Lockwood: invisible to people. Well, it always is. But in some ways that's really good
Joanne Lockwood: because, you know, I can be an inverted commas normal,
Joanne Lockwood: which, you know, I suppose some people with their
Joanne Lockwood: disabilities aren't able to do that. But in a lot of ways it makes me
Joanne Lockwood: invisible in other ways, as in people forget that
Joanne Lockwood: I have it and then I feel excluded in lots of situations. But
Joanne Lockwood: also, I always have to advocate for myself. You know, if I go into a
Joanne Lockwood: shop and I can't find something, I have to ask people constantly. Whereas maybe
Joanne Lockwood: if I went in with a stick, people would come up to me and ask
Joanne Lockwood: me if they can help me. So, you know, there are pros and cons, I
Joanne Lockwood: think, to hidden disabilities, and I think it's probably the same with every kind of
Joanne Lockwood: hidden disability. It's almost like you want a T shirt that says, I have a
Hannah Cohen: sight impairment, visual impairment, but I'm kind of okay,
Hannah Cohen: just, just, just be ready to help if I need it. But
Hannah Cohen: don't. That would be perfect. Don't patronise me and mother me. Yeah, you know
Joanne Lockwood: what? That is exactly right. Sometimes I just want to paint on my forehead and
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes I don't want anyone to, you know, it is really. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's, it's. It is very tricky because. Exactly. I don't want people
Joanne Lockwood: to patronise me and, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: mother me or whatever. But at the same time, I do need help a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of the time. I've got a good friend of mine who, who was born with
Hannah Cohen: cerebral palsy and she has a power wheelchair and she's fearfully
Hannah Cohen: independent. You try and you try and mother her manager or do anything for her
Hannah Cohen: that she hasn't asked for. She'll. She'll bite her like a.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah, like a puppy. But being around her taught me
Hannah Cohen: that when I'm with her, I'll know. She'll ask if
Hannah Cohen: she wants some help and I'll be sitting there and she'll say,
Hannah Cohen: it's my round. And she'll, she'll scoot off the bar and she'll come back with
Hannah Cohen: a, With a. One of the bar staff in attendance carrying the drinks.
Hannah Cohen: So she doesn't expect us to be the bar staff. And, yeah, sometimes she'll
Hannah Cohen: sit there and say, my shoe's fallen off. Can you put my shoe back
Hannah Cohen: on, please? Or when you're sitting there having a meal, she'll.
Hannah Cohen: She'll ask the waiter, can you please cut my food for me? Rather than ask
Hannah Cohen: her friends to cut the food. So she's very good at advocating, but
Hannah Cohen: I also know that she'll just look at me and go, can you? I go,
Hannah Cohen: of course, but I would never offer that. Yeah,
Hannah Cohen: so it's knowing when to. When to help, when not to help. I guess that's
Hannah Cohen: the same with you. You expect new people around you to be mind readers and
Hannah Cohen: be emotionally intelligent enough to figure out this is a Hannah moment,
Hannah Cohen: we need to be there. Yeah, 100%. I mean, my friends
Joanne Lockwood: always say they know I'm so independent and I hate having to ask for things,
Joanne Lockwood: but I do have to sometimes. But, yeah, some of the time I wish they
Joanne Lockwood: were all psychic and just knew that I want to go to the shops and
Joanne Lockwood: why aren't they going to collect me now? But other times I don't want anyone
Joanne Lockwood: to ask me and I will ask if I need it. So, yeah, there's
Joanne Lockwood: a balance. But I am. Yeah, I'm very independent and I think that's one of
Joanne Lockwood: the hardest things. You do feel like in some ways you've lost your independence. Especially
Joanne Lockwood: for me stopping driving because, you know, especially having children, I
Joanne Lockwood: can't drive them around. I have to ask other people, you know, it is difficult.
Hannah Cohen: Did it come on suddenly? Was it. Or was it over a period of time?
Joanne Lockwood: No, one eye, sort of. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's like the central vision loss. So one eye went. But I
Joanne Lockwood: didn't really realise. It's strange when you don't have one eye, you still see
Joanne Lockwood: fine. So one eye went. And then I sort of mentioned it to
Joanne Lockwood: someone and they said, I think you should go to the optician. Anyway, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: a few months later, the second one. And over the time I'd been to the
Joanne Lockwood: optician, I'd been sent to a ophthalmologist and
Joanne Lockwood: anyway, long storey short, I got
Joanne Lockwood: admitted to hospital. They pumped me with steroids and all different things. I
Joanne Lockwood: had like lumbar puncture, all. All different things. In the end, there was
Joanne Lockwood: nothing they can do. It's a condition. That is what it is really. It's something
Joanne Lockwood: that triggered, which I didn't know was in me already. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's it. There's nothing they can do. There's. It's quite rare, but, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, over time, who knows what might be able to be done. But currently, no,
Joanne Lockwood: nothing. There's no equivalent to the cochlear implant for
Hannah Cohen: optic nerves at the moment, is there? No, they're doing
Joanne Lockwood: stem cell. I don't even know what it's called, but, you know, but there's nothing
Joanne Lockwood: that's actually worked as of yet. Yeah, I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: if there's other conditions that are, you know, like ahead of it and
Joanne Lockwood: terms of research, but yeah, who knows what the future holds?
Hannah Cohen: So saying that it manifests itself as such, the central vision's failed. You've still got
Hannah Cohen: some periphery. Yeah, I mean, it's strange because I don't see,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, to me it just looks like I've got normal vision but
Joanne Lockwood: blurry. But yes, essentially I've got peripheral
Joanne Lockwood: vision. So your out of focus peripheral vision is doing the seeing.
Hannah Cohen: So, yeah, I can't sit at the corner of my eye. I know there's something
Hannah Cohen: there, but I can't focus on it. That's kind of what you've got and that's
Hannah Cohen: all you've got. So you're aware of things moving around you. So you've
Hannah Cohen: probably still got that reaction, have you? Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: It is strange. I mean, I feel like I. Sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: I feel like I can see fine, even though I can't, obviously. It's blurry,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, in a small space, basically, you know, I can sort of almost
Joanne Lockwood: tell what everything is and who everyone is. And as soon as it's slightly further
Joanne Lockwood: away, that's when there's more of a struggle.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, like if my son's in his room, in a room with his friends,
Joanne Lockwood: I can't tell which one's which. But, you know, so,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, you just. Got four or five blobs of humanity. Little.
Hannah Cohen: Little human, basically. They all look similar. I mean, if
Joanne Lockwood: one's blonde and one's brown, I couldn't tell. But otherwise they're all. They're all just
Joanne Lockwood: teenage boys who smell. Yeah, you're mine. Exactly. I can
Hannah Cohen: imagine that you are. Put them in special coloured T shirts
Hannah Cohen: and colour code them, like jockeys or something, so you could tell. Yeah, that'd be
Joanne Lockwood: perfect. How did.
Hannah Cohen: I mean, you say you've got boys and you've got family and how have they
Hannah Cohen: adjusted to you so? Well, actually, I became a
Joanne Lockwood: widow seven and a half years ago, so. No, thank you. So it's just me
Joanne Lockwood: and my two kids. My teenage son, who is almost 17,
Joanne Lockwood: nearly learning to drive, and my daughter, who's 19, who's just gone to university.
Joanne Lockwood: So it was a struggle because I was
Joanne Lockwood: their sole parent looking after them and then they had to
Joanne Lockwood: sort of take on more responsibilities and, you know, I didn't ever
Joanne Lockwood: want them to look after me and I didn't need looking after. But it was
Joanne Lockwood: a journey and we've been through a lot, but no, we're, you know, they're
Joanne Lockwood: amazing and they're more resilient because of it. And like
Joanne Lockwood: my daughter at uni, she's not struggled at all in terms of independence. Cause she's
Joanne Lockwood: used to being independent and used to doing stuff for herself. So I
Joanne Lockwood: suppose there's pros and cons, but yeah, the kids are brilliant and all my
Joanne Lockwood: friends and family have been amazing help. So that creates a problem
Hannah Cohen: in the future as well, doesn't it? So you want to ensure your children
Hannah Cohen: have their lives, they're not encumbered by you for want of a better
Hannah Cohen: way, not burdened by you and say if you want to go to uni, you
Hannah Cohen: want to go off to live your life, I fully understand that that
Hannah Cohen: must be a daunting prospect for you. Yeah, well,
Joanne Lockwood: it's very strange having my daughter away. And once my son goes to university, which
Joanne Lockwood: he says he wants to, I mean, that will be very odd. I am
Joanne Lockwood: learn my daughter is very helpful tech wise. My
Joanne Lockwood: son's not so techie. So I'm trying to learn to do
Joanne Lockwood: more tech things that I would normally just say, oh, can you just help me?
Joanne Lockwood: Because it's quicker. But I'm learning to do more on my own because
Joanne Lockwood: she's not here. But yeah, I mean
Joanne Lockwood: it's. Yeah. The thought of them both not being here is very
Joanne Lockwood: strange. I know I could, I know I could. I'll, I'm, you know, I'm okay
Joanne Lockwood: without them. But sometimes you sort of rely on people around you just for the
Joanne Lockwood: little jobs, just to save time.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah. So you've got things, you've got your Amazon Wishlist
Hannah Cohen: set up, you got your Tesco's online ordering, you can do all that and.
Joanne Lockwood: Exactly. And when they deliver, they'll put it in the cupboards for you if you
Hannah Cohen: ask these days, won't they? So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, as long as
Joanne Lockwood: they bring it in for me. And sometimes I'll say, oh, what's this? You know,
Joanne Lockwood: and they'll, they'll say, well, you ordered that, didn't you? But that's when
Hannah Cohen: you need the T shirt. Yeah, exactly. I think it's being impaired, not stupid. Please
Hannah Cohen: help. The problem is, is that I don't, you know, if someone is dropping
Joanne Lockwood: my shopping off, I don't like to tell them I'm visually impaired.
Joanne Lockwood: When, which is, you know, they're coming in my house. I don't know who they
Joanne Lockwood: are really. I do feel a bit vulnerable sometimes. So I
Joanne Lockwood: Don't, actually. Yeah. I don't know, you know, if
Joanne Lockwood: that's necessarily the right thing, but that's how, you know, I feel
Joanne Lockwood: safer that way. It's very interesting point, I suppose. Yeah. You're. You're. By being
Hannah Cohen: vulnerable, it makes you. Vulnerable. Exactly. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I. You know, I do feel a bit more vulnerable in certain. Certain
Joanne Lockwood: situations, which I didn't before. But, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, I'm sort of, you know, you get used to it, really. You get
Hannah Cohen: anxious when you're out alone? Sometimes. Yeah. You know, I.
Joanne Lockwood: I take the dog out every day on my own and I know, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: I know the area, I know where I'm going and. And I can see the
Joanne Lockwood: contrast of the payments. But sometimes, you know, if I have to cross a
Joanne Lockwood: small road and I can pretty much tell if a car's coming,
Joanne Lockwood: but occasionally a car just turns up. I'm like, oh, my God, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, and things like that. And I notice when I'm walking, I am more
Joanne Lockwood: anxious than I used to be because I do have to take more care and
Joanne Lockwood: I have to be, you know, more aware, really. Oh, yeah. But,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I love getting out as well, so it's.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I also am very anxious, not intentionally, but when I'm in
Joanne Lockwood: shops, because there's just.
Joanne Lockwood: It's. It's just a bit of a stressful
Joanne Lockwood: situation, being in a place where you don't currently see anything. And
Joanne Lockwood: also there's lots of people around. Who are they? Do I know them? Do they
Joanne Lockwood: know me? You know, it's. It's strange. I mean, I don't know what. Why
Hannah Cohen: I'm saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway as you're talking. It's a
Hannah Cohen: bit like being in a strange hotel and needing
Hannah Cohen: the loo in the middle of the night and there's no lights on and, you
Hannah Cohen: know, the bathroom's around here somewhere and there's a. You can just about see something,
Hannah Cohen: but you. You don't realise that the doorstop is just there and
Hannah Cohen: you end up kicking it or something, or hopes. You bang your head on something.
Hannah Cohen: You think, what was that? Oh, that was the hair dryer. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: All the time. Actually, recently, I was away for a few days and I
Joanne Lockwood: came back and I was in bed and I got up in the middle of
Joanne Lockwood: the night to go to the toilet and I just did not. You know, when
Joanne Lockwood: you don't know where you are. Yeah. But then, because I couldn't really see, I
Joanne Lockwood: was so confused where I was walking. But, you know, I suppose it
Joanne Lockwood: happens to everyone in the dark. Most people can't see much anyway. So.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah, is. Is your. Sorry, if this is
Hannah Cohen: invasive. Is your site going to deteriorate more over. Over time or has it
Hannah Cohen: got to the worst? I think. Well, it took a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of time, actually, to settle. It did take at least a year and a
Joanne Lockwood: half, maybe longer, to feel like and knew where
Joanne Lockwood: it was and where I could go and how I felt. It took quite a
Joanne Lockwood: while, but I don't think it's gonna deteriorate. But because it's a rare condition,
Joanne Lockwood: you never really know, but hopefully not. So
Hannah Cohen: you had. I think it's just reading into what you're just saying. It
Hannah Cohen: wasn't overnight. It grew or failed over
Hannah Cohen: the course of time. So you had a chance to adjust in some
Hannah Cohen: respects, sort of. I mean, overnight I couldn't drive, but
Joanne Lockwood: it almost went worse. It almost was worse, and then it got better.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know if it. If it was bad or if
Joanne Lockwood: I needed to get used to it for it to settle, if that makes sense.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know if it was in my mind because of the stress and the
Joanne Lockwood: anxiety, if that made it so much worse because it's
Joanne Lockwood: such a massive shock. So, yeah, I don't know really. You know, I was never
Joanne Lockwood: really told at the hospital. You know, it's this level and then it's
Joanne Lockwood: this level because people do say to me, oh, what number are you? I'm
Joanne Lockwood: minus one. Whatever I said, I actually have no idea. And I do wear glasses,
Joanne Lockwood: and I wore glasses before. They were exactly the same glasses, and they stopped me
Joanne Lockwood: getting eye strain, but they don't make me see different. Okay. It's not
Hannah Cohen: a focusing issue. It's not a lens issue. Is just. No, I think I
Joanne Lockwood: had a stigma. I don't know if that makes a difference now. As in, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know if that's still there. I have no idea. I'm not very good with
Joanne Lockwood: medical stuff, but all I know is they help with eye
Joanne Lockwood: strain. So I just put them on when I'm staring at a screen or
Joanne Lockwood: that's the front door. There goes. Maddie's going, man, just let
Hannah Cohen: Hannah answer the front door. We're okay. We're cool with this. We've done it before,
Hannah Cohen: haven't we, listeners? Oh, well, it's a
Hannah Cohen: sign of your resilience that, you know, the doorbell rings and
Hannah Cohen: you still go up and answer it. Yeah, you still. You still got to live
Hannah Cohen: your life, haven't you? You can't just say, exactly, I'm visually
Hannah Cohen: impaired. I Can't. It could do. No, life's gonna happen.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, exactly. I mean, people say to me all the time, you're so resilient,
Joanne Lockwood: but I just. I mean, I just feel like you either live your life
Joanne Lockwood: or you don't. And I live my life. Yeah. I don't feel resilient. I feel
Joanne Lockwood: like I've just got to do and live.
Hannah Cohen: Do you. Do you get the. Or you're brave all the
Hannah Cohen: time? Yeah. You get brave? Yeah, it's good. Do you get that as well? Yeah,
Hannah Cohen: I get brave sometimes. Yeah. Not so much these days, but yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Cohen: Brave. Or. My wife Marie gets brave as well because we've been married 38 years,
Hannah Cohen: so she's had to cope with a fair bit of flack for me.
Hannah Cohen: So, yeah, it's. I always think about it when you're not
Hannah Cohen: actually brave at the time, so you really look over your shoulder and go,
Hannah Cohen: oh, wow, maybe I was a bit. But when you're dealing with it, you're just
Hannah Cohen: dealing with it, aren't you, in the moment. Yeah, exactly. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't make a decision, oh, I'm going to be really brave and resilient and
Joanne Lockwood: get out of bed today or anything. It's like, well, I either get out of
Joanne Lockwood: bed or I. Well, you don't. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, exactly. You don't get breakfast if you stay in bed.
Hannah Cohen: Unless your children are feeling like it. Man is going to go angry.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, exactly. And the delivery driver will be at the door, knocking on, saying,
Hannah Cohen: take your parcel. You have just got to get on with things, haven't you? And
Hannah Cohen: you can't. Can't hide from the world as much. Sometimes you want to have a
Hannah Cohen: duvet day, I suppose. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: look, life's hard and lots of people have struggles of all
Joanne Lockwood: different types, but you just have to try and get on with it and live
Joanne Lockwood: your best life, you know, I'm not saying that my life every day is
Joanne Lockwood: a happy, perfect day, but overall it's good.
Hannah Cohen: So you work with teams, leaders in businesses, individuals as well.
Hannah Cohen: What if they often come to you to talk about what's. What's. What's the thing
Hannah Cohen: they cover? So the teams, you know, and the leaders. Well,
Joanne Lockwood: the teams are more, you know, the company gets me in.
Joanne Lockwood: So then, you know, it's not. It's sort of less
Joanne Lockwood: of a choice for them. But it's amazing speaking to them and working with them
Joanne Lockwood: in their workshops because some of them are just so unaware about
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of hidden disabilities and they just. It feels like they're learning loads, which
Joanne Lockwood: I just love. I love helping people to understand other people and understand
Joanne Lockwood: why they might have acted like that. One person said in a workshop,
Joanne Lockwood: right, my brother's neurodiverse. I always just call him really annoying
Joanne Lockwood: because he drives me mad. But now I actually understand that he's struggling and I'll
Joanne Lockwood: be nicer to him and I, you know, things like that are really great to
Joanne Lockwood: hear people say. And then the leaders, you know, a lot of leaders
Joanne Lockwood: struggle working with their employees, you know, whether
Joanne Lockwood: it's neurodiversity or people with medical
Joanne Lockwood: conditions that are classed as hidden disabilities or
Joanne Lockwood: mental illness, you know, and a lot of it is just
Joanne Lockwood: letting them know that it's okay to just ask people, what do you
Joanne Lockwood: need to be able to do the job? Or, you know, how
Joanne Lockwood: can I help you? Often these questions are all people want
Joanne Lockwood: and, you know, people get so worried about knowing what to say or.
Joanne Lockwood: But, you know, often it's just ask people, how can you help them?
Joanne Lockwood: And that makes a massive difference. Yeah, because
Hannah Cohen: you are your own best advocate, aren't you? You know what you need and if
Hannah Cohen: you're not sure, just say, what can I do to make your life easier right
Hannah Cohen: now? Tell me. Exactly. Exactly. It's not a dark.
Joanne Lockwood: No, it's not. And it makes a massive difference, especially in
Joanne Lockwood: companies, you know, for their employees. They just want to feel like, they want to
Joanne Lockwood: feel understood and valued, you know, one to one, coaching is different. It's, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: I do it in the companies, but out as well. And that's more for people
Joanne Lockwood: who might have hidden disabilities and they're struggling to cope in certain situations
Joanne Lockwood: or in work. And also people whose maybe children have
Joanne Lockwood: been diagnosed in neurodiversity and they're struggling to deal with them or they're
Joanne Lockwood: realising that they are neurodiverse all of a sudden after getting their kids
Joanne Lockwood: diagnosed and they're realising they actually must have it and, oh, that's
Joanne Lockwood: why my life's been like this for 30, 40 years.
Joanne Lockwood: So there's so many different things around hidden disabilities
Joanne Lockwood: that I just find really interesting and want to help people and, you know, work
Joanne Lockwood: with people. In your experience, when you're working with
Hannah Cohen: other people, maybe with hidden disabilities as well, do they have a very similar
Hannah Cohen: outlook as yourself on this? I don't always want to share
Hannah Cohen: it and sometimes I need to and sometimes I don't want to. Is it.
Hannah Cohen: It's when relevant, isn't it? Yeah. Look, I think some people are different.
Joanne Lockwood: Some people want people to know all the Time. You know, some people might
Joanne Lockwood: wear a lanyard or a badge. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And some people don't want people to know at all. So it
Joanne Lockwood: can be quite varied. Yeah, I feel like I'm generally very
Joanne Lockwood: happy to just talk about it and tell people. Whereas, you know, other people.
Joanne Lockwood: I know, we're different disabilities of much more
Joanne Lockwood: reserved. Well, not reserved, but, you know, they just don't. Don't like anyone to know
Joanne Lockwood: and they're just. Yeah, it's not. It's maybe more private.
Hannah Cohen: Well, I've got friends who are
Hannah Cohen: neurodiverse, neurospicy, sometimes whatever
Hannah Cohen: language they use to describe themselves. And some of them will start
Hannah Cohen: every sentence with my adhd, you know, sort of.
Hannah Cohen: It's almost like they're everything. It revolves around their
Hannah Cohen: ADHD or their autistic traits or whatever it may be. And there are other people
Hannah Cohen: who are arguably
Hannah Cohen: undiagnosed, but exhibit the
Hannah Cohen: characteristics of someone with ADHD or autism, ausd,
Hannah Cohen: and they just get on with life. And it's different,
Hannah Cohen: isn't it? People have told me I've got a level of
Hannah Cohen: neurodiversity. I don't. I don't need to be diagnosed.
Hannah Cohen: I'm quite cool with it. Certainly not the characteristic I'm worried about. I've got other
Hannah Cohen: things going on in my life. I don't need another diagnosis.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah, you see, you recognise the traits in different people, but some people
Hannah Cohen: need that diagnosis, don't they? They need that part of
Hannah Cohen: their identity. You might say I am blind as an adjective, as
Hannah Cohen: an identity describer, because it gives you a sense of community and
Hannah Cohen: understanding and recognition. Or you might just say, actually, I just don't see
Hannah Cohen: as well as I used to. I'm fine. Yeah, no, definitely, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, I mean, I can work with people who don't have diagnosis and vice versa,
Joanne Lockwood: but just everyone is so different. And, yeah, some people
Joanne Lockwood: really want everyone to know. They want to shout it, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: this is almost. Sometimes I feel like some people just need
Joanne Lockwood: it. It's like, this is me, this is why I've been like this.
Joanne Lockwood: And, you know, and other people just, you know, it's irrelevant. They just
Joanne Lockwood: get on, this is me. Doesn't matter what I am, Give
Joanne Lockwood: me. The meds, I need them. If not, don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah, I'm with you. You're right. We're a mixed bag of humanity.
Hannah Cohen: We're all going to respond to different situations differently. And
Hannah Cohen: some people need that sense of belonging in that community to feel
Hannah Cohen: maybe safer, maybe feel more empowered. As a result of it. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I just try to help
Joanne Lockwood: people understand their strengths and use their own strengths,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever they are. You know, we all have our own strengths and as long as
Joanne Lockwood: you can harness them, you know, you'll get
Joanne Lockwood: where you want to go. Yeah. You mentioned right at the beginning about
Hannah Cohen: the struggle that your. Your workplace, a small employer,
Hannah Cohen: small practise. To what extent should your employer
Hannah Cohen: have invested more in you? I mean, because think
Hannah Cohen: about the Equality act, access to work, all those schemes,
Hannah Cohen: it's. Did they do the minimum or is it
Hannah Cohen: just. They just didn't have the resources? I think
Joanne Lockwood: it's a mix of things. I think they didn't have the
Joanne Lockwood: resources. They didn't. Sorry, that was Alexa. She thought she'd get involved as well.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't think they've got the resources. I don't think they really knew what to
Joanne Lockwood: do. I think this was the first time anything like this had happened to them
Joanne Lockwood: as well as me. They've been very, very supportive.
Joanne Lockwood: So mentally, if that makes sense. But in terms of the work stuff,
Joanne Lockwood: I've sort of got on with it myself a bit. Had
Joanne Lockwood: to speak to access to work and get things
Joanne Lockwood: inputted and stuff. You know, I think there
Joanne Lockwood: are pros and cons being in, say, in the firm or in the
Joanne Lockwood: position I've been in, in the office, as in everyone's so loving
Joanne Lockwood: and welcoming. When I was off sick,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I took about a year off because, you know, I had to sort
Joanne Lockwood: of just get to grips with the. My new reality. You know, they'd come and
Joanne Lockwood: visit and always. They were always looking out for me.
Joanne Lockwood: So, you know, other people might have been a different situation when they had all
Joanne Lockwood: the software, but no one actually speaking to them
Joanne Lockwood: in, you know, were looking out for them. So I don't know exactly,
Joanne Lockwood: really. But yeah, it's been tricky, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess. Also, I mean, just listen to your storey, about your career change
Hannah Cohen: and. Or pivot, which I wish describe it. Your outlook
Hannah Cohen: on life also changed. So maybe you. You
Hannah Cohen: lost the passion to be a solicitor and do what you were doing. So even
Hannah Cohen: if. If they. Even if they'd been the perfect employer, put all these tools in
Hannah Cohen: place, your brain was being exhausted by the new reality
Hannah Cohen: of having to process information in a sequential audio
Hannah Cohen: format. So your own expectations
Hannah Cohen: about what you wanted to do change as well, didn't they? Definitely. And,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I just feel so passionate about the inclusion work. You know, I'm really
Joanne Lockwood: enjoying it and the
Joanne Lockwood: more I learn about it, the more I talk to people, the more I just
Joanne Lockwood: Want to be doing it all the time. And
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not sure I ever really felt like that about law, to be honest.
Hannah Cohen: My background, it was more of like. A means to an end. Oh, Really? I
Hannah Cohen: spent 20, 25 years in either in electronics or IT,
Hannah Cohen: and then I discovered people and it was like, wow, this
Hannah Cohen: is. This is far more enjoyable. I get engaged with
Hannah Cohen: empathy, compassion. My life is so,
Hannah Cohen: so much more enriched in the last 10 years than it ever was. I'm not
Hannah Cohen: saying I had a bad life. Yeah. I've opened a box and found
Hannah Cohen: a whole new treasure. And it sounds like you found the same.
Joanne Lockwood: No, definitely it. I feel like I'm almost
Joanne Lockwood: like blossoming into myself and I'm learning about myself as well as the world,
Joanne Lockwood: people, everything. Yeah, I feel definitely enriched. I've got
Hannah Cohen: friends who've talked to me about the social model of disability as opposed to the
Hannah Cohen: medical model. And the key thing is it's society that is
Hannah Cohen: disabling society doesn't enable you and
Hannah Cohen: you're probably hyper aware of that yourself now about these
Hannah Cohen: unseen barriers. And I think it doesn't mean that people are bad people,
Hannah Cohen: they're just wearing blinkers and they see the world through their own lens. They
Hannah Cohen: don't see the world through your eyes, therefore they don't understand
Hannah Cohen: what it means to be think about your needs. Everyone's
Hannah Cohen: so busy focusing on what they want. Yeah, no,
Joanne Lockwood: 100%. Look, the world has been designed for.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, there's say, able bodied, but you know, that term
Joanne Lockwood: isn't always accepted. But yeah, the typical. Because even for neurodiverse people,
Joanne Lockwood: the workplace isn't built for them. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: there's just so much that I think over the next, I don't know how long,
Joanne Lockwood: 10, 20, 30 years, things are going to change massively to
Joanne Lockwood: make sure that either everyone gets what they
Joanne Lockwood: need separately or the world is built in a bit more of a
Joanne Lockwood: more open way to serve more people, really. I
Hannah Cohen: spend a lot of time with my mum, she's what, 86? And
Hannah Cohen: she needs to use a rollator now. She struggles to walk,
Hannah Cohen: she ends up with back pain, she walks too far without the rollator.
Hannah Cohen: Like I was talking about my friend who has cerebral palsy in a wheelchair. Until
Hannah Cohen: you've spent a day or two or a lot, a lot longer with these people,
Hannah Cohen: you don't realise how inconvenient the world is for them.
Hannah Cohen: Stuff that I take for granted, you know, I remember going to London
Hannah Cohen: with my friend and just getting on, off the train.
Hannah Cohen: Finding the underground was just a huge Sojourn around trying to navigate
Hannah Cohen: different lifts, all this and curbstones and buses.
Hannah Cohen: I took my mum to Edinburgh back in the spring and
Hannah Cohen: we booked passenger assistance and it
Hannah Cohen: was a bit hit and miss. It wasn't great, you know, you felt
Hannah Cohen: like you were having to try to figure it out on your own.
Hannah Cohen: And on the way back, first class, we were travelling first class on the
Hannah Cohen: train. We turned up at the first class land. Result, my mum's books took Passenger
Hannah Cohen: Assistance. Have you checked in with Passenger Assistance downstairs? No,
Hannah Cohen: I haven't. Can you deal with that for me? My mum is 86, she's just
Hannah Cohen: about made it here. Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden this person was
Hannah Cohen: wandering around the lounge shouting at this person's name. I thought, that's not
Hannah Cohen: my mum. Okay, I'll just sit here. I look at my watch thinking,
Hannah Cohen: our train's leaving in about 15 minutes and I know how far it is from
Hannah Cohen: the first class lounge at Edinburgh to the first class carriages
Hannah Cohen: on the platform. I said, look, my mum says, your
Hannah Cohen: mum this. I said, no, that's not my mum's name. Well, you're sure it's not
Hannah Cohen: your mother? I said, I'm very sure it's not my mother's name. What a silly
Hannah Cohen: question. And eventually we. I got the person
Hannah Cohen: at the desk to run off and then she disappeared. I
Hannah Cohen: was now faced with nobody with a radio and I managed to grab
Hannah Cohen: something and said, look, your person here has gone off to cheque something and we're
Hannah Cohen: now five minutes before the train departs. We are not going to be happy if
Hannah Cohen: we miss our train and my mum cannot run, okay?
Hannah Cohen: And I know you don't want to hold the train up, so what are we
Hannah Cohen: going to do here? Eventually I will take you now. I mean, fog
Hannah Cohen: marched from the first class lounge down in this train and by the time we
Hannah Cohen: got there it was like my mum was. I was
Hannah Cohen: struggling. We get on the train and they take my mum's relay to. They
Hannah Cohen: stick it in the luggage rack, which then probably falls off and hits somebody else.
Hannah Cohen: And I wrote, well, I say I wrote me and my friend Chatgpt, we wrote
Hannah Cohen: a little complaint letter because our train on the way up was 45
Hannah Cohen: minutes, no, an hour late, I think it was on arrival. They can't. No, they
Hannah Cohen: cancel the train we booked on. The next one we could get
Hannah Cohen: was two hours later. So we're automatically entitled to a refund on the journey up.
Hannah Cohen: So I wrote a complaint letter about this passenger assistance. Now all this played up
Hannah Cohen: and so we got Return back free as well. So two of us, there's no
Hannah Cohen: way back. £400 worth of first class ticket to Edinburgh,
Hannah Cohen: we got free. It doesn't compensate for the poor
Hannah Cohen: experience. But me and my mom did laugh and sort of wink at
Hannah Cohen: each other go, wow. It wasn't so bad after really was.
Hannah Cohen: Could have been worse. We could have missed the train. My mum could have been
Hannah Cohen: on her own. I mean she's feisty, she could have self
Hannah Cohen: advocated but she probably wouldn't have wanted to
Hannah Cohen: in the same forceful way I was able to. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's. You must find that yourself, you know things. Yeah. You find yourself
Hannah Cohen: having to complain and get angry more than you really want to. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I think overall, with things like passenger assistance and
Joanne Lockwood: the, the ones at the airport, overall I've had good experiences. I think the
Joanne Lockwood: times I've not had good experiences is when I'm trying to do it myself in
Joanne Lockwood: a way. But it is hard because you've got to rely on these people. If
Joanne Lockwood: they don't pick you up like you know, from the lounge and take you where
Joanne Lockwood: you want to go, you're not going anywhere, are you? A few weeks ago I
Joanne Lockwood: was in London and I was staying at my sister in law's and I wanted
Joanne Lockwood: to go to a conference in Wembley, a coaching conference. I thought, okay,
Joanne Lockwood: I can manage to get from there to there and then
Joanne Lockwood: I'll ask someone. But it was a lot harder than I thought it would be
Joanne Lockwood: and I could have booked some sort of assistance, at least some of it, but
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't because I thought, well, I'll just ask. But it was quite hard and
Joanne Lockwood: it was quite stressful. It just made me realise that maybe I can't do some
Joanne Lockwood: things on my end that I want to do or thought I could. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's, it's hard. I mean I think there's, there's apps probably that I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know about that, you know, it's like navigating apps that I've never tried that
Joanne Lockwood: I need to look into because that was the first time that I tried to
Joanne Lockwood: navigate myself from one place to another. Yeah. And I realised
Joanne Lockwood: that Google Maps does not do that for me these days. So I think
Joanne Lockwood: there are others out there I just have never tried. If it's in London
Hannah Cohen: or any major city. City Map was a good app. That
Joanne Lockwood: one's not accessible either. It's about it sort of being really
Joanne Lockwood: accessible and then reading to me where you know, you're in this direction, go that
Joanne Lockwood: way. City Mapper. I'm not sure I don't think that. I don't think
Joanne Lockwood: that was accessible. When I was in London, I did try it. I think Google
Joanne Lockwood: Maps was telling me where to go. I just couldn't work out where it was.
Joanne Lockwood: Telling me it was like, go down this road. I'm like, well, I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: which road that is. You know, I need one that says go straight ahead.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, works out where I'm going sort of thing. I
Hannah Cohen: would have thought City map would have done that. It was said bus stop, get
Hannah Cohen: on the 76, in, in. In two, five or 10 minutes
Hannah Cohen: or something. It would turn in the buses. I don't know. I did. I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: I tried to click on it to try and work something out and the buttons
Joanne Lockwood: just said button rather than, you know, that sort of thing. The interface wasn't
Hannah Cohen: intuitive. Yeah, yeah. Often interfaces don't work with a
Joanne Lockwood: voiceover or different screen reader tech. Yeah, that's true.
Hannah Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Websites, I guess.
Hannah Cohen: Do you get annoyed with the lack of alt text and visual
Hannah Cohen: descriptions and things? Yeah. I used to love shopping. I mean, I still love
Joanne Lockwood: shopping. That's a lie. But it's so much more difficult now.
Joanne Lockwood: Unless there's good descriptions on things, it's
Joanne Lockwood: impossible. I mean, I've ordered things before and they've turned up and they haven't been
Joanne Lockwood: what I expected. They've been the colour. And, you know, I know it's a brown
Joanne Lockwood: top, but it's got all this detail that I didn't know it had and I
Joanne Lockwood: wouldn't have ordered it, you know, so it's really frustrating. Really
Joanne Lockwood: frustrating. There's so much that isn't accessible
Joanne Lockwood: that you don't realise until you're using some like, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: accessible screen reader technology type of thing. You don't. You just don't
Joanne Lockwood: know. I mean, I didn't know any of this even existed really, before my site
Joanne Lockwood: changed. So it's. It's amazing what is out there, but
Joanne Lockwood: it's. It's very frustrating how little is accessible as well.
Hannah Cohen: It's getting better, isn't it? It is getting better. I look at
Hannah Cohen: Apple technologies and Microsoft technologies. It is built into the
Hannah Cohen: core of the platform these days, isn't it? Yeah, I use all
Joanne Lockwood: Apple stuff and I think it's brilliant. Yeah. But, yeah, some
Joanne Lockwood: websites just very, very hard to use. So do you. Can you still put mascara
Hannah Cohen: on? Yes and no. I do it,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, by sort of feel. But
Joanne Lockwood: occasionally, you know, I'll get it in my eye or on my face or my.
Joanne Lockwood: I'll come Downstairs. And my daughter will go, you've got makeup all down here on
Joanne Lockwood: your cheek. But generally people say to me, oh, your makeup's nice. Who
Joanne Lockwood: did it? I do, but I don't know what it looks like. But apparently it
Joanne Lockwood: looks good. And why not? Exactly. I mean, you know, there are
Joanne Lockwood: pros and cons. I don't look wrinkly and I don't think I ever will. To
Hannah Cohen: me, no, you'll always be the age you were.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, exactly. So you don't go to the hairdresser and say, just make it look
Hannah Cohen: fabulous. Well, actually, I told my hairdresser to tell me
Joanne Lockwood: when I was grey enough to need some colour doing.
Joanne Lockwood: And she said, you've got some greys, you're not. I don't think you need
Joanne Lockwood: it doing yet, but I think you might want to do it. As in, you
Joanne Lockwood: might. If you could see, you would probably want it done. So she picked them
Joanne Lockwood: out and put a bit of colour on. But, you know, I'm paying for all
Joanne Lockwood: this stuff that I can't even see. It seems a bit mad, but, you.
Hannah Cohen: Know, that's the beauty industry, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm definitely not bought into so much stuff because I think, well, I can't
Joanne Lockwood: see what I'd be using it for. But a lot of my friends are
Joanne Lockwood: into all different things. You know, there's so many amazing products out there now, or
Joanne Lockwood: gadgets. Does it change your relationship with food? Because a
Hannah Cohen: lot of food is it's smell and sight, isn't it? You know, you go into
Hannah Cohen: a restaurant and the. The menu, the appetiser, you know, you're
Hannah Cohen: looking at the menu, the visual colours and the. It's all that marketing.
Hannah Cohen: First, you must largely go for something you.
Hannah Cohen: You've had before. Do you fall for it? I don't think so. The
Joanne Lockwood: one thing which is actually quite funny is, you know, like, if you see a
Joanne Lockwood: dessert, you think, oh, I really want that. Well, I don't really get that because
Joanne Lockwood: I can't see it. So that actually it helps quite a bit.
Joanne Lockwood: But in terms of, you know, on a menu, I mean, it's a pain. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, I normally ask who I'm with, someone who I'm with, to read the menu
Joanne Lockwood: to me and, you know, if someone's reading it and, oh, can you stop that?
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, can you read that again? I missed that. And by the end they're fed
Joanne Lockwood: up and I can't be bothered listening anymore. I just picked something that might. I've
Joanne Lockwood: spent more time thinking over things and looking at the menu and, you
Joanne Lockwood: know. But I don't think it majorly affects food.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, it affects what I make at home because I've got like,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, jars of spices. Well, I can't be bothered spending time with
Joanne Lockwood: my phone trying to work out which one's which. I just make something that I
Joanne Lockwood: make all the time, really. I guess the salad bar at
Hannah Cohen: Harvester you need help with these days as well. Pardon? Sorry? The salad bar at
Hannah Cohen: Harvester. God, yeah. That's impossible. Anything like that is
Joanne Lockwood: impossible. I reckon that's sweet corn. That's probably kidney beans.
Hannah Cohen: That's probably a bit of beetroot. Yeah, exactly. I did actually
Joanne Lockwood: go to a hotel with some family a while ago and. And they have
Joanne Lockwood: to, they have to literally go around with me and say, right, this is this,
Joanne Lockwood: and this is this. It's. Anyway, it's not that much
Joanne Lockwood: fun. 15, 15 or so years ago, I was at a
Hannah Cohen: restaurant, they were hosting this. I think it was
Hannah Cohen: a five or six course set meal called. I think they
Hannah Cohen: called it the around the world night. So you had a different dish.
Hannah Cohen: They sold the restaurant seats out so you couldn't just turn up. See, they put
Hannah Cohen: the whole restaurant out and you had to put the five or six courses and
Hannah Cohen: you just sit there and they just serve you the next course. Next course. And
Hannah Cohen: on the table next to the friend I was with and I.
Hannah Cohen: She was blind, visually impaired, whatever script
Hannah Cohen: she'd like to use, but she clearly couldn't see and she was feeling
Hannah Cohen: in the cutlery, feeling the plate. Yeah, starting to eat.
Hannah Cohen: And what she didn't see was a really
Hannah Cohen: hot large chilli on top of the meal.
Hannah Cohen: Of course, everyone's plate looked the same. Mine arrived in front of me, my
Hannah Cohen: friends arrived in front of his. We looked down clearly, we could see
Hannah Cohen: a nasty high powered chin. It wasn't a.
Hannah Cohen: I think we're made of a firecracker and there's really one to get in the
Hannah Cohen: jail phrases type meal. And she just tuned into it
Hannah Cohen: and of course she had no forewarning
Hannah Cohen: about this heat explosion in her mouth. And she
Hannah Cohen: was completely distraught, completely
Hannah Cohen: shocked and she felt
Hannah Cohen: violated. She'd been attacked by this chilli. This pain came out of
Hannah Cohen: nowhere and yeah, that's horrible. And it was, it
Hannah Cohen: made me realise that, you know, when you think about accessibility,
Hannah Cohen: popping a chilli or popping something on a bit of food, you've got a
Hannah Cohen: lot of responsibility there to say to the people as you put it down, be
Hannah Cohen: careful, this is hot, the plate's hot, the pan's Hot. And
Hannah Cohen: there's a chilli on top. And I think we have to audio describe
Hannah Cohen: for our restaurant goers as well. It sounds like could have happened to you
Hannah Cohen: in this scenario. Definitely. I mean, I have, you know, taken a
Joanne Lockwood: mass. You know, when sometimes they put one of those massive chunks of parsley on
Joanne Lockwood: top of something, just a big tree and I've. I've gone in, I'm like, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: what's that? But luckily it wasn't chilli. But I have.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't remember why. I don't know if it was decorative
Joanne Lockwood: or what, but, you know, taking a big piece of lemon in my mouth, like
Joanne Lockwood: a wedge of lemon that was in something about, oh, what's that? You know, things
Joanne Lockwood: like that that don't need to be there or should be on the side or
Joanne Lockwood: explain. But often I'll say to people if I'm sat with
Joanne Lockwood: someone, which I generally am when I'm in a restaurant where,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I ask them to sort of point out where everything is or what
Joanne Lockwood: it is on the plate. If I know there's a selection of things and say,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, which one the potatoes, which one's the. Just so I've
Joanne Lockwood: got. Especially if it, you know, if you order something like white fish and
Joanne Lockwood: then the plate's white and then the potatoes are white and you're like,
Joanne Lockwood: it's just. A one colour just plate.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, exactly. You need like audio captions
Hannah Cohen: live for the real world. Exactly. I mean, that would be
Joanne Lockwood: perfect. But often my companion,
Joanne Lockwood: whoever it may be, is my audio describer. And I always say to the kids
Joanne Lockwood: as well, if we're walking out and about, I say, you know, make sure you
Joanne Lockwood: tell me, you know, if we see someone and they just come up to me
Joanne Lockwood: go, hi, Hannah. Who have I said? And often I'll just say to someone's face,
Joanne Lockwood: who are you? You know, because I've given up being polite. I
Hannah Cohen: mean, we've been having a conversation now for what, 55 minutes and
Hannah Cohen: a lot of what we're talking about is your real life experience of
Hannah Cohen: being not included. I'm not going to. I'm not
Hannah Cohen: saying you've been excluded, but you haven't been consciously
Hannah Cohen: included. So you're having to do more self
Hannah Cohen: advocacy than you would. You feel you should have to,
Hannah Cohen: because the world is still assuming
Hannah Cohen: the normality of that 80% of people who are in the
Hannah Cohen: middle of there somewhere. Yeah. I think
Hannah Cohen: you've highlighted some things that I hadn't considered before about
Hannah Cohen: what we as individuals need to do. We as business
Hannah Cohen: need to do we as colleagues, whatever it may be, just to
Hannah Cohen: be more consciously inclusive, not just of visual impairment,
Hannah Cohen: hearing, other sensory perceptions, neurodiversity,
Hannah Cohen: whatever it may be, because it could happen to us.
Hannah Cohen: One in six of us will lose our hearing at some point in our life.
Hannah Cohen: I'm not sure what the stats are for sight, but certainly one in six. We'Re
Joanne Lockwood: hearing, I can't, I don't know what the stats of a site but there's, there
Joanne Lockwood: is, there are some stats about how many people will become disabled by the time
Joanne Lockwood: they're, you know, whether that's 60, 70, 80, age,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, most people will become disabled of some sort in their
Joanne Lockwood: life, lifespan and yeah, you know, you don't know what someone's going through
Joanne Lockwood: even if you don't know they're visually impaired or they're neurodiverse, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, maybe they're just having a horrendous day and they just need
Joanne Lockwood: a bit more compassion. All four of our
Hannah Cohen: parents went through a phase where they needed a blue badge,
Hannah Cohen: so that's four out of four around
Hannah Cohen: mid-80s years old. So at some point it's pretty certain that you're either going
Hannah Cohen: to have hearing, sight or physical.
Hannah Cohen: My wife just had a total knee replacement.
Hannah Cohen: And this is the crazy thing about the Equality act
Hannah Cohen: is that a disability is only class of disability if it persists for over
Hannah Cohen: a year. So the fact that my wife's had a total knee replacement, she's
Hannah Cohen: not entitled to any support, blue
Hannah Cohen: badge or anything like that because it's
Hannah Cohen: a transient condition and not more than a year.
Hannah Cohen: You think, well hang on a minute, she can't walk from the car to the
Hannah Cohen: car park. She's got no entitlement to use a, a disabled spot, pay for
Hannah Cohen: parking, whatever it may be. And it, it's, we've got to, we've got to think
Hannah Cohen: about those people who maybe don't quite hit the threshold and how are they
Hannah Cohen: supported as well? Yeah, definitely. And you know you
Hannah Cohen: could lose, you could lose your sight or your hearing to a point where you
Hannah Cohen: are disabled by most definitions but not disabled enough
Hannah Cohen: to qualify for support. And it's no definitely. And even if you
Hannah Cohen: do hoops, you have to jump, you'd be through access to work and
Hannah Cohen: any benefits you get you have to be
Hannah Cohen: brutally kind of assessed as to, you sure you
Hannah Cohen: can't work, you sure you can't provide that for yourself? Show us your budget, show
Hannah Cohen: us your money. Show us our father in law, he's just
Hannah Cohen: come out of hospital, broke two ribs. They thought he was going to die. At
Hannah Cohen: one point they sent him home. He said, well, what support can
Hannah Cohen: we get? Well, he's not broken enough, you know, he's. He's recovered.
Hannah Cohen: It's like, yeah, but if you don't help him, he'll fall over and
Hannah Cohen: he'll be back in hospital and he'll be back where we started. Well, we're not
Hannah Cohen: set up for that. We're set to fix what we can see, not prevent
Hannah Cohen: what might. Yeah, no, I know. And
Joanne Lockwood: you mentioned conscious inclusion. That's something that I speak about in my workshops, because it's
Joanne Lockwood: not about consciously excluding people, it's just about
Joanne Lockwood: consciously including everyone. So. So, you know, it
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't matter what anyone's got or what they're going through or if they've got a
Joanne Lockwood: diagnosis or if they're disabled or not really. It's about making sure everyone
Joanne Lockwood: has what they need. Yeah. I always remember the storey about
Hannah Cohen: the. There was a person who got off an aeroplane, I think it was at
Hannah Cohen: one of the London airports, and he had his own custom
Hannah Cohen: wheelchair. And for whatever reason, that custom wheelchair wasn't made available
Hannah Cohen: at the gate when he got off the plane. And they offered
Hannah Cohen: to push him through the terminal in a one with a handle on
Hannah Cohen: the back, and he refused and said, I would rather drag
Hannah Cohen: myself on my knuckles through the terminal on the
Hannah Cohen: floor than have you push me in a wheelchair because that will make me
Hannah Cohen: disabled. You've taken away my autonomy, you've taken away my
Hannah Cohen: advocacy. You basically said, I am disabled. I am. I can
Hannah Cohen: do this myself. And I always use that as an example of how
Hannah Cohen: badly did that go. The gate staff could have handled that in
Hannah Cohen: such a different way, where this person would have felt validated, listened
Hannah Cohen: to, considered supported. They would
Hannah Cohen: not have escalated. But instead they say, here's a chair, get in it. That's the
Hannah Cohen: only option. And there was another one, wasn't it? The cop
Hannah Cohen: 26 was the climate in Edinburgh or
Hannah Cohen: Glasgow where one of the delegates was a wheelchair user
Hannah Cohen: and she couldn't get access to the venue. On the first
Hannah Cohen: day, she turned up and said the entrance wasn't accessible. There wasn't
Hannah Cohen: a plan B. You think, well, hang on a minute, this is basic
Hannah Cohen: stuff. Basic stuff, yeah. If your plan A
Hannah Cohen: fails, what's your plan B? C, D, E, F, G, all the way through to
Hannah Cohen: Zed or zz. Zzz. Keep coming up with plans.
Hannah Cohen: I always say to people, the first plan B is listen and
Hannah Cohen: ask the person, what could you do instead
Hannah Cohen: of you? And then you can base your Future plans on an individual.
Joanne Lockwood: No 100%. Too often we just job's worth. Or
Hannah Cohen: there's lack of empowerment. Lack of whatever it may be.
Hannah Cohen: And I'm sorry, we can't do that. I bet
Hannah Cohen: if I got angry with the right person, you'd make it happen. Yeah. Cut
Hannah Cohen: out the angry bit and just get the right person. Exactly. Because it's
Joanne Lockwood: exhausting. You don't want to have to get. Have to get angry every time just
Joanne Lockwood: to get what you need. I know, but you almost know. You always know
Hannah Cohen: you're going to have to, though, don't you? That's the sad thing.
Hannah Cohen: Hannah, it's been fascinating chatting to you. I can't believe we've been rabbiting on now
Hannah Cohen: for nearly an hour and a half. Bit in the grin.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it, thanks. Your storey is incredible and
Hannah Cohen: I'm not going to use the brave or all those other words you have.
Hannah Cohen: You've got some true grit there. And I think what's come out of your
Hannah Cohen: adversity is you've discovered yourself and you found a
Hannah Cohen: passion, you found something that's going to drive you and you're changing the world
Hannah Cohen: in your own way. Thank you. It's fabulous. Well, I hope so. Thanks. How can
Hannah Cohen: people get hold of you? What's the best way of tracking you down? Well, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: on most of the social media sites. My business is called the Insight Coach,
Joanne Lockwood: so you'll find me on Linked. Well, my name, Hannah Cohen on LinkedIn, the
Joanne Lockwood: insight coach on Instagram and Facebook and my website,
Joanne Lockwood: theinsightcoach.com. So, Hannah, just for accessibility
Hannah Cohen: is H A N N A H and Cohen, C O H
Hannah Cohen: E N. Is that right? Yeah. Brilliant. Find you on LinkedIn.
Hannah Cohen: And obviously, if someone's contacting you, be aware you're using a screen reader. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. Make it concise, make it easy.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Put no images and put some more text on the images if you're going
Hannah Cohen: to put them there. Yeah, exactly. People sometimes just send me an image and that's
Joanne Lockwood: it. I'm like, great, yeah. What's that?
Hannah Cohen: White fish on a white plate with potatoes. Isn't that. That should be the title
Hannah Cohen: of the episode. White fish. White potatoes
Hannah Cohen: with a bit of lemon. Yeah, Big wedge of lemon.
Hannah Cohen: Hannah, thank you. Great. Thanks, Jo.
Hannah Cohen: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Hannah Cohen: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Hannah Cohen: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Hannah Cohen: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Hannah Cohen: Inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community
Hannah Cohen: draw driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and
Hannah Cohen: colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.
Hannah Cohen: Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all
Hannah Cohen: ears. Reach out to jo
Hannah Cohen: lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and
Hannah Cohen: let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Hannah Cohen: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Hannah Cohen: more enrichment narratives that challenge, inspire and
Hannah Cohen: unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one
Hannah Cohen: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.