WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.400 And today is episode 201 with 19 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.840 the title Healing Through Human Connection. 20 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.200 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Silvia 21 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.760 Causo & Adrianne Arendse. 22 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.239 Sylvia and Adrianne are the co founders of Lead and Belong, 23 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.200 creating gentle yet powerful spaces for leaders and teams to 24 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.080 shift from mind centred approaches to truly human centred growth. 25 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.200 When I asked Sylvia and Adrianne to describe their superpower, they said this is 26 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.880 his piercing insight paired with calm, 27 00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:54.720 steady energy needed to hold challenging, transformative 28 00:01:54.720 --> 00:01:58.640 conversations. Hello, Sylvia. Hello, Adrianne. Welcome to the show. 29 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:03.760 Hello. Hello. Lovely to have you here. And I believe 30 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.640 that you got in touch having listened to an episode I recorded 31 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.400 with a show on Miller recently. So thank you for that. It was a beautiful 32 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:15.380 conversation and we were hooked and so we decided to come on the 33 00:02:15.380 --> 00:02:19.220 show. Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you. And you have the honour 34 00:02:19.220 --> 00:02:22.940 of being my second time having a 35 00:02:23.260 --> 00:02:27.140 threesome on the podcast, actually, the first 36 00:02:27.140 --> 00:02:31.140 time where I've had my two guests in 37 00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:35.060 the same room together. Before I did it, they were in different rooms. You are 38 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:38.780 the first pair to be on the screen together, 39 00:02:38.780 --> 00:02:42.630 so. Yeah, fantastic. And I just realised 40 00:02:42.630 --> 00:02:46.190 that it's episode 201 which makes three 41 00:02:46.750 --> 00:02:50.030 again. Yes. Back to the magic number. 42 00:02:50.510 --> 00:02:54.110 Oh, the magic number, yeah. 2 and 1 and 3. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, 43 00:02:54.270 --> 00:02:58.190 indeed. It's the 21st of November, so that doesn't count, does there's no threes in 44 00:02:58.190 --> 00:03:01.790 there. Oh, no. 201. 201, yeah, 201. There we are. Yeah, 45 00:03:01.790 --> 00:03:05.760 201. 21. Wow. We've got the world 46 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:09.720 is now converging on us. So where. Where are you in the world? I never 47 00:03:09.720 --> 00:03:13.440 know where my guests are these days. It could be from anywhere. We're in Port 48 00:03:13.440 --> 00:03:17.120 Levin in Cornwall. Sounds idyllic. And Beautiful. Is that a fishing 49 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.440 village or. Yeah, it is. It's got a 50 00:03:20.600 --> 00:03:24.400 harbour and so forth. And of course it's winter 51 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.280 now. Well, it's getting into winter, so it's about 7 degrees 52 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.210 outside. Sunny but cold, you know, a little bit cold. Blue sky. 53 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:36.770 I took the dog for a walk this morning. Part of the world. Oh, shivering. 54 00:03:36.850 --> 00:03:40.850 It is. Is it near where the. 55 00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:45.090 The Fisherman's Friends films were filmed? Around that area? Is that that kind of. 56 00:03:46.050 --> 00:03:49.810 Yeah, yeah. But those, those were film up and down the coast? I think so, 57 00:03:49.810 --> 00:03:53.690 yeah. I reckon they probably filmed some of it here. I mean, I say it's 58 00:03:53.690 --> 00:03:57.640 7 degrees, apparently it feels like minus 2, according to the 59 00:03:57.640 --> 00:04:00.840 app on my phone. Does that mean we didn't go in the sea yesterday? No, 60 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.120 it doesn't. We did go in the sea. You went the. Oh, wow. 61 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:08.000 You're 23, 365 swimmers, are you? 62 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.240 Every day in the sea? I don't know about every day, but certainly. 63 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.160 And when I say going in the sea, I'm not talking about in a. Wetsuit, 64 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.320 you're talking about trunks. Yes. Yeah. 65 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.460 I mean yesterday we were looking out of the window and it looked so 66 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:28.450 stunning. Blue skies with in fact was three in the 67 00:04:28.450 --> 00:04:32.450 afternoon, so the sun was coming down, the light was golden 68 00:04:33.010 --> 00:04:37.010 and I said, looks like we are in the Caribbean and inside is fairly warm, 69 00:04:37.090 --> 00:04:40.890 so just let's go and see what it's like. And it was 70 00:04:40.890 --> 00:04:44.850 beautiful. Reinvigorating for sure. What she's leaving out is that as 71 00:04:44.850 --> 00:04:48.850 soon as you step outside you realise it looks like the Caribbean. It 72 00:04:48.850 --> 00:04:52.390 doesn't feel like it. Not at all. So is this a 73 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:56.390 swim swim? Is it a paddle, is it just a dunk and back or are 74 00:04:56.390 --> 00:05:00.150 you hanging out there for an hour or so? Yesterday it was a dunkin back. 75 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:03.910 But normally you swim, I sink, so I don't actually 76 00:05:03.910 --> 00:05:07.510 swim. But you swim? Yeah. And it was 77 00:05:07.830 --> 00:05:11.710 head in as well yesterday I really needed to refresh 78 00:05:11.710 --> 00:05:15.630 my mind because I had a very sleepless night and night before. So 79 00:05:15.630 --> 00:05:19.340 it was good for me in that sense. It just kept me going through the 80 00:05:19.340 --> 00:05:23.220 day. Well, I'm very impressed as, as I hinted to know I've got a 81 00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:26.540 dog. Well, we've only had the dog about eight weeks, so we're still in this 82 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:30.300 new puppy territory and getting up at early 83 00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:33.980 o' clock when, when she wants to go out for a. A wee and then 84 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:37.020 having to take for a walk at 7 o'. Clock. I've got myself a big 85 00:05:37.020 --> 00:05:41.020 overcoat and, and snood and things now and it's makes it a bit 86 00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:44.870 more pleasant. But yeah, I'm. I'm now, I'm now experiencing weather that I. Probably most 87 00:05:44.870 --> 00:05:48.870 of my life I've avoided. But yeah, it's something to be said 88 00:05:48.870 --> 00:05:52.150 about starting the day or clearing your head and going for a walk and having 89 00:05:52.150 --> 00:05:55.310 some fresh air or getting in a massive plungeful. 90 00:05:55.790 --> 00:05:59.630 Atlantic plungeful, I guess. Is it the Atlantic where you are? Yeah. Yeah. 91 00:05:59.710 --> 00:06:03.630 Wow. Fascinating. We want to 92 00:06:03.630 --> 00:06:07.510 talk about bias, trauma, human 93 00:06:07.510 --> 00:06:11.070 connection. Specialise in creating spaces where people can explore 94 00:06:11.070 --> 00:06:14.850 themselves deeply and honestly. So where did that come 95 00:06:14.850 --> 00:06:18.170 from? What was the spark and inspiration? Well, 96 00:06:19.690 --> 00:06:23.690 about, let's see, about six years ago I was working 97 00:06:23.690 --> 00:06:27.530 at Falmouth University. I was teaching screenwriting and 98 00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:31.290 then a few things happened over a fairly short period. 99 00:06:31.370 --> 00:06:35.130 I realised that I'm very mixed race and I'm South African and 100 00:06:35.210 --> 00:06:38.860 when I say very mixed race. Normally when you say mixed race people think a 101 00:06:38.860 --> 00:06:42.820 white or Caucasian and you know, another race. But in 102 00:06:42.820 --> 00:06:46.420 my case I say very mixed because my ethnicity is very mixed. 103 00:06:47.780 --> 00:06:51.540 So I, I have a, I have a grandmother from Mozambique, 104 00:06:51.860 --> 00:06:55.500 another one from somewhere in India, a 105 00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:59.220 grandfather from Malaysia and another grandfather from, from 106 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:03.060 Holland. So it's, it's a real, a really deep mix. And 107 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:07.080 anyway, I realised in my situation, as always, sort of 108 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:10.880 delivering these, these lectures, there was a whole lot of information. The 109 00:07:10.880 --> 00:07:14.880 students were not available. It wasn't available to them, or at least 110 00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:18.560 it was available, but it wasn't showing up in the work. And if their work 111 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.080 is to create something in the same way that when you're working with an 112 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:26.080 AI or an LLM, garbage in, garbage out. So if you put 113 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.400 really decent information in, interesting things come out and when 114 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.530 you. When one of the things I realised is the students weren't exposed to other 115 00:07:34.530 --> 00:07:38.410 perspectives outside of the Western one. And it just, 116 00:07:38.890 --> 00:07:42.770 I realised that there was potential in them that wasn't being realised. Because of 117 00:07:42.770 --> 00:07:46.490 that the experience of the world was, was getting smaller. 118 00:07:47.609 --> 00:07:51.450 And I went on to co create a module called Belonging 119 00:07:52.490 --> 00:07:56.290 that ran in the fashion department at first the Fashion Textiles 120 00:07:56.290 --> 00:08:00.280 Institute and then I translated over to photography and 121 00:08:00.280 --> 00:08:03.480 to television, those modules, those courses. 122 00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.920 And necessarily because I don't think there's that it's not, you 123 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.000 know, it's not like I won wondering with some answers. You have to adapt to 124 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.840 the context and that's sort of a theme of, of what I do. 125 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.440 So that's sort of, that's some of how I got 126 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.360 to where we are and 127 00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:26.040 I started doing some, some of that work with other universities. 128 00:08:27.250 --> 00:08:31.130 So the. Obviously I'VE got skin in the game 129 00:08:31.130 --> 00:08:35.050 because belonging is for me, it starts with me belonging to 130 00:08:35.050 --> 00:08:38.850 myself and then how that ripples outwards 131 00:08:39.330 --> 00:08:43.210 and it requires empathy obviously, because if I have a good sense of 132 00:08:43.210 --> 00:08:47.130 my belonging myself I can then start to find the limits of my empathy. 133 00:08:47.130 --> 00:08:50.370 And so. But before I become this becomes a TED Talk, 134 00:08:51.010 --> 00:08:54.180 why don't we turn over. To me what was the question 135 00:08:55.780 --> 00:08:58.180 now? Why are we doing this? Personally, 136 00:08:59.780 --> 00:09:03.340 it's because life brought me here. Essentially my 137 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:06.820 background is the coaching but also 138 00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:10.900 energetic work. And why I started to do this work is because 139 00:09:12.660 --> 00:09:16.260 a family member was very mentally ill with an eating 140 00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:20.250 disorder. So I was caught up in that, in, in 141 00:09:20.250 --> 00:09:24.010 that experience and at some point I realised that actually I 142 00:09:24.010 --> 00:09:27.650 was not helping anymore, I was injuring the recovery. 143 00:09:28.050 --> 00:09:31.730 So I had to look at myself and says what's going on here? Why 144 00:09:31.730 --> 00:09:35.490 we, you know, we're not making progress. So I started to look at my, 145 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:39.370 at my behaviours and I realised that I 146 00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:42.850 was, was modelling what my mother did to me, which I never wanted to do 147 00:09:42.850 --> 00:09:46.760 with other people in my family. And I started to 148 00:09:46.760 --> 00:09:50.480 look at why I was doing that. I went into trauma and 149 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.400 then I went to, into. I had great self awareness and 150 00:09:54.400 --> 00:09:58.320 insight. I could see how I was isolating myself from the rest of the world 151 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:02.920 because of this. And then, you know, to cut a 152 00:10:02.920 --> 00:10:05.920 long shorty with a thought, I went into training, started to do this work 153 00:10:07.040 --> 00:10:10.840 and realise how much we isolate 154 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.330 ourselves from the rest of the world because we need to protect ourselves, ourselves. 155 00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:18.410 And then eventually while we're doing this together, 156 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:22.730 because essentially we met on a dating app and we 157 00:10:22.730 --> 00:10:26.610 realised that, you know, in a conversation we had 158 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:30.370 a lot in common. And then as we got together it 159 00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:34.210 felt like this is why we're here because I 160 00:10:34.210 --> 00:10:38.210 have that kind of skill of helping people to create and 161 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:42.210 create a safe space for them to just look at the traumas and the blocks, 162 00:10:42.210 --> 00:10:45.710 emotional blocks and you have this ability of creating space 163 00:10:46.430 --> 00:10:50.270 and holding a conversation, very difficult conversations. And 164 00:10:50.670 --> 00:10:54.550 the title is Healing through Belonging if I remember 165 00:10:54.550 --> 00:10:58.270 well. And we are very much about collective 166 00:10:58.270 --> 00:11:02.230 healing. This is a collective experience. We don't, we can't heal in 167 00:11:02.230 --> 00:11:06.110 isolation. We'll heal as we co regulate with 168 00:11:06.110 --> 00:11:10.020 each other. I've heard many people say that you 169 00:11:10.020 --> 00:11:13.700 can't truly understand others until you understand yourself. 170 00:11:13.780 --> 00:11:17.180 And I always think you have to like yourself, you have to be aware of 171 00:11:17.180 --> 00:11:20.900 yourself before other people can like you. And well, 172 00:11:20.980 --> 00:11:24.380 so I think finding self is really important and I think what you're saying there 173 00:11:24.380 --> 00:11:27.940 Adrian, about having this huge 174 00:11:27.940 --> 00:11:31.940 depth of your ethnicity and your, your. I would imagine that 175 00:11:31.940 --> 00:11:35.760 you had to explore all of those different nuances mentioned. 176 00:11:35.760 --> 00:11:39.360 Your grandmothers come from, and grandfathers come from different continents 177 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.800 and there's a whole range of people going back in time there and you must 178 00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:47.800 have had to explore that to really try and understand where you are in 179 00:11:47.800 --> 00:11:51.600 the world, is that right? Yeah. And not just as 180 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.800 a sort of cognitively and not just sort of 181 00:11:55.800 --> 00:11:59.720 looking at the sort of factual history. There are things, artefacts 182 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:03.470 of that experience that are, that are squishy, 183 00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:07.230 you know, that live in a recipe that somebody held onto 184 00:12:07.230 --> 00:12:10.670 in a way of speaking in a. In, in various 185 00:12:10.670 --> 00:12:14.550 phrases. I mean, my, my father occasionally if he talks about 186 00:12:14.550 --> 00:12:18.550 going to the doctor, he'll say quacksalver, which sort of. That's his, his sort of 187 00:12:18.550 --> 00:12:22.470 Dutch, his, his fierce father's Dutch heritage coming through. And, and 188 00:12:22.470 --> 00:12:26.430 my mother passed away in April. She had her 189 00:12:26.750 --> 00:12:30.720 sort of linguistic sort of idiosyncrasies as well and those were 190 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:34.680 carried from her mother and so on. And her father died when she was two, 191 00:12:34.680 --> 00:12:38.520 so she didn't have a one to one 192 00:12:38.520 --> 00:12:42.520 relationship with him really. There's, there's all of those things. And of 193 00:12:42.520 --> 00:12:45.880 course, I don't know if you know anything about Cape Town, which is where I'm 194 00:12:45.880 --> 00:12:49.800 from, but there's an area of Cape Town that's 195 00:12:49.800 --> 00:12:53.600 quite, well, a storey from Cape Town about 196 00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:57.320 people, people being evicted from a specific area called District 197 00:12:57.400 --> 00:13:01.280 6, which is. If you imagine the Table Mountain, the 198 00:13:01.280 --> 00:13:04.720 classic view of Table Mountain, it would have sat sort of nicely in the middle 199 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.360 of the flat, not the flat bit, but in front of the flat. But because 200 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:12.240 nobody lives on top of the mountain. But. So my parents hadn't met at the 201 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.080 time, but they, their families were evicted from this very multicultural 202 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.480 area during apartheid. And I, I mean, I grew up 203 00:13:20.030 --> 00:13:23.870 towards the bottom end of the apartheid regime and then on into the 204 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:27.390 new South Africa. So I left when I was 33. So I'd experienced some of 205 00:13:27.390 --> 00:13:30.670 that. So yeah, there's a lot of 206 00:13:31.870 --> 00:13:35.550 variation in flavour and a lot of spice 207 00:13:36.590 --> 00:13:40.470 in my ethnicity. But also, as I say, it's not just the 208 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:44.230 fact, it's also a way of seeing the world and influences 209 00:13:44.230 --> 00:13:47.960 my relationships with time and all sorts of things. And it 210 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:51.960 means, because I experienced that particular experience of being in 211 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.520 South Africa at that time, you know, the way that I respond to various things 212 00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:59.320 is I could see how it was flavoured by that upbringing. 213 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.159 For instance, there are probably a handful of times in my life 214 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.760 that have walked up to a police officer because 215 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.240 they are unsafe. Certainly the way I grew up, the police was unsafe. And 216 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.910 so, yeah, there's a lot that's informed by my lived 217 00:14:15.910 --> 00:14:19.390 experience. But I didn't stop there. I mean, I'm curious about my life, but I'm 218 00:14:19.390 --> 00:14:23.350 also curious about the world. And, and I, I, I 219 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:27.030 to. To get back to sort of the belonging part. Belonging and love 220 00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:30.989 are linked. So if you can find ways 221 00:14:30.989 --> 00:14:34.790 to love yourself or discover ways of loving yourself, because I think that's sort of 222 00:14:34.790 --> 00:14:38.750 endless. It becomes easier to love beyond 223 00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:42.920 yourself. Just. Sylvia, talk about belonging. Need and belong 224 00:14:42.920 --> 00:14:46.160 is the organisation. What is belonging 225 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.800 thinking? I was thinking, as you were asking a question to 226 00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:54.640 Adrian, why we're doing. Going back to 227 00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:58.240 why we're doing this work. Right. Because when we met, I always 228 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:02.760 consider myself a very inclusive person, very equal, very 229 00:15:02.760 --> 00:15:06.240 diverse. Right. But was only when I was, 230 00:15:06.770 --> 00:15:10.610 you know, I started a biracial relationship, I realised 231 00:15:10.610 --> 00:15:14.290 that actually there were some emotions that were coming up for me. And of course, 232 00:15:14.290 --> 00:15:18.210 with my background is trauma and unconscious, you know, beliefs, 233 00:15:19.170 --> 00:15:22.690 everything started to bubble up. Oh, my God. I actually, mentally, 234 00:15:23.010 --> 00:15:26.850 I know that I'm inclusion at the verse, but actually in my body I 235 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:30.730 hold some experiences that are not quite aligned 236 00:15:30.730 --> 00:15:34.730 with the way I want to be. I want to show up. Yeah, I wasn't 237 00:15:34.730 --> 00:15:38.630 fully inclusive. I was. But really 238 00:15:38.630 --> 00:15:42.550 there was something that kind of needed to shift. And by the way, I'm 239 00:15:42.550 --> 00:15:46.390 on this journey, I haven't finished, you know, like, processing all of 240 00:15:46.390 --> 00:15:50.350 this. So in terms of belonging in our relationship, we cannot 241 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:54.150 belong fully to each other or we cannot belong fully to each other 242 00:15:54.150 --> 00:15:58.110 unless. Until I move this. And also what showed me that 243 00:15:58.110 --> 00:16:01.350 when I go in the world and I look at, you know, black and brown 244 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:05.060 people, different, you know, races, I 245 00:16:05.060 --> 00:16:08.980 didn't see the trauma, the 246 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:12.980 conditioning from the trauma they have experienced. And now I 247 00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:16.980 have a fuller understanding what it means to be, you know, someone 248 00:16:17.060 --> 00:16:20.980 not fully. Actually a better understanding to have a sense 249 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:24.980 of what, what it's like for you, to be you. It's 250 00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:28.900 not just you as an individual, but you also belonging to that culture. So 251 00:16:28.900 --> 00:16:32.860 belonging is, to answer your question, is getting 252 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.440 to know your. Also getting to know 253 00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:40.720 how others might experience you and 254 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.320 the world. It's really interesting what you're saying there about this 255 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.320 awareness you've developed since meeting Adrianne around 256 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.360 what racism is and feels like. Because I am a white person, my 257 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.240 heritage is white and British. I see the world through my 258 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.600 blinkers. I see the world through my lens. I don't know what it's like for 259 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.600 you either. As A couple or as an individual. And it's not until 260 00:17:04.600 --> 00:17:08.360 sometimes you open those doors and actually listen to somebody who's going through 261 00:17:08.360 --> 00:17:12.200 that you truly understand. And it's not the big racist 262 00:17:12.600 --> 00:17:16.440 issues, it's the little. Just the way people look at you, 263 00:17:16.520 --> 00:17:20.200 or I'm sure you find that people see you as a couple 264 00:17:20.520 --> 00:17:24.360 and there's a reaction to that as well. And there's an assumption that 265 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.300 the other person's going to be the same ethnicity as you. Now 266 00:17:29.300 --> 00:17:32.580 I get it. Where people assume the person who is with me 267 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:36.500 is going to be of a certain sex or gender or appearance. People are 268 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:40.460 judgmental without being cruel or mean about it. They're just making 269 00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:44.380 assumptions, aren't they? Absolutely. I mean, again, as I said, it was only when 270 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:48.380 I actually, when we started a relationship, certainly things were coming up. But when 271 00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:51.140 we went to South Africa, when I was outside my environment, 272 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:56.000 the white people were the minority in. In 273 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.640 their community. So I said, oh, my God, this is how it 274 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.440 feels not to be, you know, not to 275 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.280 be. Not to feel safe in, you know, 276 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:10.000 and feel that you truly belong in that space. 277 00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:15.240 And we had white people looking at us 278 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.960 because biracial relationship, we had black and brown 279 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.850 people doing that as well. And it was like, wow, this is for the. Feels 280 00:18:22.850 --> 00:18:26.810 like when you're not feeling welcome. Although I did have my little flavour. Not 281 00:18:26.810 --> 00:18:30.570 feeling welcome with Brexit because I'm Italian, I've been in the UK for 282 00:18:30.570 --> 00:18:34.290 25 years, so I did have a little flavour, but still 283 00:18:34.370 --> 00:18:38.369 there is. The whiteness makes 284 00:18:38.369 --> 00:18:42.090 me belong in. In a diff. You know, at the 285 00:18:42.090 --> 00:18:45.810 core I belong, even though I'm from. From another 286 00:18:45.810 --> 00:18:49.690 country. So, yeah, you just really. When we 287 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:53.550 met, I'll tell you this, Storey, we met on 288 00:18:53.550 --> 00:18:57.430 the app and the first opening line was, my question to Adrianne was, 289 00:18:57.430 --> 00:19:01.110 what is the best piece of advice that you. Someone has given you? 290 00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:04.870 And your reply was, it was, if. You want to learn something, 291 00:19:04.870 --> 00:19:08.550 teach it. And my reply to Adrianne was, yes, I agree, but 292 00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:12.150 I take it a little deeper. If you want to 293 00:19:12.550 --> 00:19:16.430 learn something, experience it and then teach it. And that 294 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:20.370 is my mantra, right? Although, you know, journey is 295 00:19:20.610 --> 00:19:24.530 ongoing as human beings. But 296 00:19:24.530 --> 00:19:28.210 I teach the work that we do is because we experience it. We experience 297 00:19:28.290 --> 00:19:32.130 it. What it feels like to be in the room with people and to 298 00:19:32.130 --> 00:19:36.010 feel lonely that you don't belong because you don't belong to yourself in 299 00:19:36.010 --> 00:19:39.810 the first place. And this is why we're passionate about taking this 300 00:19:39.810 --> 00:19:43.770 stuff in the workplace, because how many people feel displaced in 301 00:19:43.770 --> 00:19:47.320 the workplace in places where they've been 20, 30, 302 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:51.000 maybe 30 years working in that. And they just totally lost their soul 303 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:55.080 in that place. And it just becomes a mechanical 304 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.280 activities that you do every day to survive. 305 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.720 Pick up on something you just said there, and I'm a quiet 306 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.600 believer in this concept is that you said about 307 00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:11.360 being lonely. I truly believe you can be. There's a being alone 308 00:20:11.360 --> 00:20:14.480 and being lonely and you can be lonely in a room full of people 309 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.160 and you can. And you can be connected even when you're on your own. I 310 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:23.040 also think it's the same as being the difference between included and 311 00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:26.640 belonging, or inclusion and belonging. You can be included but not 312 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.240 belong. And it's trying to. It's trying to 313 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.320 elevate yourself from being unwelcome to hell. Yeah, people accept 314 00:20:34.320 --> 00:20:38.320 me, I'm part of this. I get an invite. But when you arrive, do 315 00:20:38.320 --> 00:20:42.040 you belong? And that's. That's a different feeling as well, isn't it? How. It's almost 316 00:20:42.040 --> 00:20:44.680 like an upgrade where you go, actually, 317 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.480 you've included me, but actually I'm part of this. This is 318 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.400 me, this is who I am. This is everything resonates, everything feels comfortable here. 319 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.240 And I think I always say lonely and alone, inclusion, belonging there. 320 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:01.360 They're different things we don't always think about. I feel 321 00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:04.930 like belonging to. Is closer to a state of being 322 00:21:06.530 --> 00:21:10.370 than it is, you know, it's something you. You become aware of 323 00:21:10.530 --> 00:21:13.890 after it's happened or as it's happening. Not 324 00:21:14.450 --> 00:21:18.370 something you have to sort of prepare your mind for. You belong. It's. It. 325 00:21:18.370 --> 00:21:21.170 It becomes part of the fabric. It's the. It's the truth 326 00:21:22.290 --> 00:21:26.210 that emerges, rather than something you. You sort of create. And you can't 327 00:21:26.210 --> 00:21:30.210 perform it either, you know, in the same way you can't perform vulnerability. 328 00:21:31.410 --> 00:21:34.690 You know, you either vulnerable or you are. Yeah, 329 00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:38.610 it's a bit like virginity. You either are or you are. 330 00:21:40.610 --> 00:21:43.570 You can't be a bit pregnant, can you? No. 331 00:21:49.330 --> 00:21:52.450 There's a distinction I make between knowledge and 332 00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:57.170 information and I use it to sort of, kind of situate 333 00:21:57.170 --> 00:22:01.090 my empathy in a way in that if. If I. I call knowledge 334 00:22:01.090 --> 00:22:05.090 information that I can contextualise in my lived experience. So 335 00:22:05.090 --> 00:22:08.930 I can talk about, you know, using a screwdriver, but I 336 00:22:08.930 --> 00:22:12.770 can't talk about having a child, you know, because I don't 337 00:22:12.770 --> 00:22:16.650 have the mechanics to be able 338 00:22:16.650 --> 00:22:20.650 to. Yeah. To be able to produce. 339 00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:24.080 Use a child and so many other things. 340 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:28.160 And I normally do a much more visceral version of that 341 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.760 metaphor, literal metaphor, as part of some of the things I deliver. 342 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.960 Because it's sort of. I can sort of say, okay, well, that's 343 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.840 information. I can be in the proximity of its own experience, but it's not 344 00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:43.640 my experience. You know, I can have space and time and care for 345 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.280 it, but it's not my experience. And I can recognise that. And I think it's 346 00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:51.210 very important because it can inform belonging, it can 347 00:22:51.290 --> 00:22:55.170 inform inclusion. You know, I have something to add about 348 00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:58.970 that. And this is just literally insights coming through, as we have in this conversation. 349 00:22:59.050 --> 00:23:02.810 This is the beauty, isn't it, really? Travelling deep conversations that 350 00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:07.050 again, like you say, information. If I can't, if I don't 351 00:23:07.050 --> 00:23:11.010 have the experience, I can. It's kind of all information. And at the same 352 00:23:11.010 --> 00:23:14.930 time, one of the elements that we bring in the workplace is nervous 353 00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:18.580 system education and education about the emotions 354 00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:22.740 and becoming into, you know, get getting into coherence with 355 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.620 the people around you. Because really, and this is part of the work that 356 00:23:26.620 --> 00:23:29.540 I do is energetic work, getting into coherence with 357 00:23:30.340 --> 00:23:34.100 someone's energetic field. And essentially the nervous system, we can 358 00:23:34.100 --> 00:23:37.780 really feel people, but we need to be present, fully present. 359 00:23:38.340 --> 00:23:41.380 And again, going back to the beginning, you need to be fully present with yourself 360 00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:45.310 before you can be fully present with others. And when you. And when you 361 00:23:45.310 --> 00:23:48.910 practise and clear your blocks, emotional 362 00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:52.750 blocks, then you can become even more attuned 363 00:23:52.750 --> 00:23:56.670 with someone else's experience at a nervous system level, 364 00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:00.430 at an energetic level. And there was something else that I wanted to add which 365 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.430 is just disappear from my mind, that links all 366 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:07.990 together. But anyway, I'll come back to it, go back to. I mean, both of 367 00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:11.790 you can tackle this, you talk there about. So I can't understand your 368 00:24:11.790 --> 00:24:15.530 exact experience. I can hear you, I can get information about it, but I don't. 369 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.360 So how can we build empathy through just having information? 370 00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:23.840 That's what we're trying to do here, isn't it? I think so. One of the 371 00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.520 things I do, for instance, is I 372 00:24:27.520 --> 00:24:31.280 paint that information knowledge sort of line and 373 00:24:31.439 --> 00:24:35.360 it's a wiggly sort of organic line rather than a dead straight one. 374 00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:39.520 I find that helpful because it tells me that 375 00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:43.410 it helps me not centre myself in that conversation of the 376 00:24:43.410 --> 00:24:47.370 experience I don't have. And that sort of, kind 377 00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:51.370 of ironically helps me be more empathetic. And in 378 00:24:51.370 --> 00:24:54.970 a way I call it, also call it the line of the limits of some 379 00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:58.290 of my empathy so that I can understand. And I don't mean a limit, it's 380 00:24:58.290 --> 00:25:02.210 more like a milestone or a guide. It shows me this is where my 381 00:25:02.210 --> 00:25:06.050 body stops experiencing something. And this is where 382 00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:08.930 my mind and my heart can take me slightly further. 383 00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:14.270 And knowing that is quite powerful for me because it 384 00:25:14.270 --> 00:25:17.790 means that I can say, okay, my experience of not 385 00:25:17.790 --> 00:25:21.790 belonging and your experience of not belonging are not going to be the same. 386 00:25:22.350 --> 00:25:26.350 But there's a flavour of overlap because not belonging has. 387 00:25:26.350 --> 00:25:30.070 There's some similarity. It's in the subjectivity that I always think of 388 00:25:30.070 --> 00:25:33.950 belonging as being highly subjective. So in 389 00:25:33.950 --> 00:25:36.950 terms of how we would deal with a client, for instance, I always think that 390 00:25:36.950 --> 00:25:40.710 the missing element in any definition of belonging is the 391 00:25:40.710 --> 00:25:44.570 client. It. Because I don't go. We don't go to them 392 00:25:44.570 --> 00:25:48.370 with. Prescribe how to. Or any of this thing. We go to 393 00:25:48.370 --> 00:25:52.330 discover what their context is and what it. And 394 00:25:52.330 --> 00:25:55.970 how you know. And my assumption is always that people will come to you with 395 00:25:55.970 --> 00:25:59.810 questions, have their own answers, and what we do is create space for them 396 00:25:59.810 --> 00:26:03.450 to realise their answers. We don't necessarily know the 397 00:26:03.450 --> 00:26:06.650 answers, but it's sort of let them emerge. But yes, I think 398 00:26:07.260 --> 00:26:11.260 empathy, I mean, I guess it's helpful to sort of want to have a very 399 00:26:11.260 --> 00:26:15.060 lovely, squishy, wavy, slightly 400 00:26:15.060 --> 00:26:18.860 imprecise definition, not like a cold hard one of 401 00:26:18.860 --> 00:26:22.540