WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone 6 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 9 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 12 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 13 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:15.630 --> 00:01:19.380 And today is episode 204 with the 18 00:01:19.380 --> 00:01:23.020 title Centering the Margins. And I have the 19 00:01:23.020 --> 00:01:26.420 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Nena Gilreath. 20 00:01:26.740 --> 00:01:30.100 Nina is one of the co founders of the Bath Ethnic 21 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.100 Ballethnik. That's easy for me to save my teeth in this company 22 00:01:34.340 --> 00:01:37.940 who have spent over three decades reshaping ballet to 23 00:01:37.940 --> 00:01:41.380 centre black excellence, belonging and cultural truth. 24 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:46.040 When asked Nina to describe her superpower, she says that it is holding 25 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.320 the line for black dancers creating space, 26 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.480 legacy and possibility where none was offered 27 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.320 before. Hello, Nina. Welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, 28 00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:01.280 how are you today? Absolutely fantastic. We're 29 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:05.080 not far from Christmas. It's cold and wet here, but 30 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:08.640 where are you in the world? Okay, today I'm in Athens, 31 00:02:08.640 --> 00:02:12.640 Georgia. I am in a place that I love, 32 00:02:12.640 --> 00:02:16.040 a community called Athens. But I'm at the Herd 33 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:20.060 Park. Why can I get my things right? Today I'm at Heard 34 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:24.060 Recreation. Today I'm working here because there's a renovation on 35 00:02:24.060 --> 00:02:27.540 the building where I usually work. So what's the weather like? You know, us Brits, 36 00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:30.140 we like to talk about weather. Is it. Is it hot and sticky? I mean, 37 00:02:30.140 --> 00:02:33.980 last time I was In Atlanta or 25 years ago, it was a really hot 38 00:02:33.980 --> 00:02:36.980 and sticky place. Is it. Is it still hot and sticky this time of year? 39 00:02:37.300 --> 00:02:41.100 Today is not hot. Atl today I have a 40 00:02:41.100 --> 00:02:45.100 scarf on my neck. It's cold. And for people in the south, it's 41 00:02:45.100 --> 00:02:48.480 very cold. We're in the east and typically in the winter. 42 00:02:48.880 --> 00:02:52.800 Yeah, typically we're in the 30s or so. It's cold. 43 00:02:53.600 --> 00:02:57.200 Has ice on the car. That's really cold. 30s? Yeah. 44 00:02:57.440 --> 00:03:01.000 For those who are like me, I work in centigrade, so. But 45 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.800 30s is water. Freezes at 32. So yeah, that's cold. 46 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.920 Yeah, that's cold. Yeah. Yeah, we have to wear a jacket 47 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.560 and real socks and real shoes and most of the time we 48 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.510 don't. It's not like the summer where you're wearing sandals and T 49 00:03:16.510 --> 00:03:19.830 shirts and things. Yes, shorts, shorts, 50 00:03:20.390 --> 00:03:23.910 shorts. Yeah, well, yeah, you can just about get away with it here in the 51 00:03:23.910 --> 00:03:27.630 summer, but yeah, most of the year it's not quite short, whether in the UK 52 00:03:27.630 --> 00:03:31.590 where we are. But yeah, it sounds lovely. And you're not far from 53 00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:35.550 Atlanta then. So that. So Atlanta is the capital of Georgia. Yes. And 54 00:03:35.550 --> 00:03:38.030 so you're, you're not far from there, what is it, about an hour and a 55 00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:41.790 bit away. Yeah. Like I always say, for me, I drive 56 00:03:41.790 --> 00:03:45.750 there several times a week because I work in Athens during the week and 57 00:03:46.050 --> 00:03:49.810 on the weekends I go home to Atlanta. So 90 minutes 58 00:03:49.810 --> 00:03:53.770 door to door if there's no crazy traffic. So do you have those big freeways 59 00:03:53.770 --> 00:03:57.730 with sort of 20 lanes that all kind of snarl up and things like 60 00:03:57.730 --> 00:04:01.650 that, do you? There's so much traffic here, especially after the Olympics, 61 00:04:01.650 --> 00:04:05.410 so we do have a lot of lanes. I usually take a little side 62 00:04:05.410 --> 00:04:09.010 street so that I can listen to podcasts like we're doing today, 63 00:04:09.330 --> 00:04:12.850 and then I end up getting on the expressway. So I love. It's a time 64 00:04:12.850 --> 00:04:16.780 for me to reflect, but also to listen and meet new great 65 00:04:16.780 --> 00:04:20.780 people. Like meeting you today. Yeah, I remember my times 66 00:04:20.780 --> 00:04:24.540 in the States when I was driving and in. Either in LA or actually 67 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:28.380 in Georgia or South Carolina, that sort of area. 68 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:32.340 You join the freeway or the expressway and you stay in the same lane and 69 00:04:32.340 --> 00:04:35.700 before you know it, you've managed to move your lane to move all the way 70 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:39.540 over, and then you end up getting filtered off in another lane by doing 71 00:04:39.540 --> 00:04:43.260 nothing other than drive forward. Is 6, 7, 8, 10 lane motorways 72 00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:47.260 sight to behold, really nothing really to have anything that big in the uk, 73 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:52.020 but they're phenomenal. It takes getting used to. And I'm 74 00:04:52.020 --> 00:04:55.900 from a small town in North Carolina, so when I moved to Atlanta 75 00:04:55.900 --> 00:04:59.740 it did get. It took some time for me to get accustomed to 76 00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:03.660 merging onto the highway and driving faster than 77 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:07.660 I'd ever driven before. And by. By UK standards, the. You don't 78 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:11.580 drive that quickly, do you? So you're driving 55 to 70 miles an hour in 79 00:05:11.580 --> 00:05:15.510 the UK quite regularly. People are 80, 90, 100 miles an hour, which is kind 80 00:05:15.510 --> 00:05:19.230 of even more scary, I guess. Yeah, that's. A hundred is too 81 00:05:19.230 --> 00:05:23.030 fast. It's usually between 65 and 75 is what is 82 00:05:23.030 --> 00:05:26.990 legally Permitted. Yeah. We're not. We're not supposed to drive faster 83 00:05:26.990 --> 00:05:30.910 than 70, but, you know, our motorways, people do push it up 84 00:05:31.550 --> 00:05:35.390 quite often. Someone will come flying past you at 90 plus. So. Yeah. 85 00:05:36.110 --> 00:05:39.950 And then your car kind of goes, whoo. Shakes. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. 86 00:05:40.370 --> 00:05:43.850 But I've got a big German car, so my car's designed to go that fast 87 00:05:43.850 --> 00:05:47.850 as well. But I never go much faster than 75. 80. I'll 88 00:05:47.850 --> 00:05:51.370 get ticket otherwise. Good for you. Keep your money in your 89 00:05:51.370 --> 00:05:55.250 pocket. In my pocket, yeah. That's for sure. Yeah, that's where it needs to 90 00:05:55.250 --> 00:05:59.090 stay. We were chatting just before we 91 00:05:59.090 --> 00:06:02.970 went live and we talked about, well, 92 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:06.450 the pronunciation, alethnic. And 93 00:06:07.320 --> 00:06:11.000 that's a merger of two words, isn't it? Ballet and ethnicity. Or ethnic. 94 00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:15.400 So where did this. Well, what started 95 00:06:15.400 --> 00:06:19.120 this Inspiration? You know, it's about trying to give not just a 96 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:23.079 voice, but an outlet for people 97 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:26.960 who don't fit the typical Swan Lake view of ballet, I guess, 98 00:06:26.960 --> 00:06:30.800 is it? I know. And you kind of hit right on it. Were you in 99 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.680 my brain? Yeah. So part of how we hit on it 100 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.380 is dancing the classics. So in the late 80s, 101 00:06:38.460 --> 00:06:42.340 my husband and I were dancing at the Atlanta Ballet and 102 00:06:42.340 --> 00:06:46.140 we were performing the classics. Swan Lake was one of 103 00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:49.940 them, Giselle was the other. So with dancing 104 00:06:49.940 --> 00:06:53.780 the classics, once you're a classical ballet dancer and you get a certain 105 00:06:53.780 --> 00:06:57.740 level of proficiency, and if you're not the lead character, then there's 106 00:06:57.740 --> 00:07:01.660 a lot of standing and posing. So we were just standing on the side 107 00:07:01.660 --> 00:07:05.260 going, what's next? So we started to do the classical poses 108 00:07:05.710 --> 00:07:09.390 and then we started to add some, like, movements, isolating our 109 00:07:09.390 --> 00:07:13.110 bodies and our shoulders and our hips and adding that. 110 00:07:13.110 --> 00:07:16.990 And both me and my husband, because eventually we did get married, after he followed 111 00:07:16.990 --> 00:07:20.910 me to Atlanta, we both are social dancers, love 112 00:07:20.910 --> 00:07:24.910 to dance to R and B music. So we just thought about what? 113 00:07:24.910 --> 00:07:28.870 About a world where we take all this classicism, blend 114 00:07:28.870 --> 00:07:31.950 it up, mix it up and come up with a new formulation. 115 00:07:32.590 --> 00:07:36.450 So we also were at the Atlanta Ballet, and we're 116 00:07:36.450 --> 00:07:40.170 in a city where. It was a city. The majority of the people were people 117 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:43.970 of colour. But people of colour were not coming to the 118 00:07:43.970 --> 00:07:47.810 ballet. It was not very integrated. Some of 119 00:07:47.810 --> 00:07:51.610 the wealthier black children could get their dance education 120 00:07:51.850 --> 00:07:55.530 from the ballet. So I would always say, where are the black people? The black 121 00:07:55.530 --> 00:07:59.330 children? Surely there are people like me that would want to be doing 122 00:07:59.330 --> 00:08:02.650 this thing. People like my husband, who was an athlete. 123 00:08:03.620 --> 00:08:07.620 So once we decided to leave the ballet, we decided to start 124 00:08:07.700 --> 00:08:11.420 our own company. But we were trying to at 125 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:14.980 first get the choreographer, Louis Johnson, who 126 00:08:14.980 --> 00:08:18.980 choreographed the Wiz. We tried to talk him into coming to 127 00:08:19.220 --> 00:08:23.180 Atlanta and starting a ballet. And he said, I'm too old. A young 128 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:26.620 person needs to do it. And we said, we don't know anything about starting a 129 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:29.860 company. He said, you know the best part, the dance part. 130 00:08:30.580 --> 00:08:34.340 So that's how we set out on this mission. Had no 131 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:38.100 clue where it was going to go. So my husband, I'm a big sceptic 132 00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:42.340 and at that time we were dating, so everything he said, I questioned. 133 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:45.900 So he said, I think I have a name for this thing. I was like, 134 00:08:45.900 --> 00:08:49.020 yes, sure, what's it going to be? And I had my head all tilted and 135 00:08:49.020 --> 00:08:52.860 I had a little frown on my face. And he said, my two favourite forms 136 00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:56.260 of dance are ballet and ethnic. Put it together, 137 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:00.300 ballethnik. And immediately I was like, ooh, he has 138 00:09:00.300 --> 00:09:04.180 stumbled on to something that I think we can really make great. 139 00:09:04.180 --> 00:09:07.500 So that's where we started. Yeah, because traditional ballet is very 140 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:12.420 white, very kind of colonial, kind of old 141 00:09:12.420 --> 00:09:15.500 school European, isn't it? It's not. I mean, 142 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:20.180 forgive me if anyone listening to this is really into their traditional ballet, but it 143 00:09:20.180 --> 00:09:23.900 doesn't really excite me. Yeah, it's. It's very prim and 144 00:09:23.900 --> 00:09:27.730 proper, designed for certain body types and certain 145 00:09:27.730 --> 00:09:31.210 fitness levels and certain people Personas and 146 00:09:31.690 --> 00:09:34.810 what I'm imagining listening and talking to you, and also the visual 147 00:09:35.930 --> 00:09:39.850 identity that I see in front of me. This really fun, smiling 148 00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:43.570 black woman with massive hair. You don't fit the 149 00:09:43.570 --> 00:09:46.490 traditional ballet model, do you? From old. If you, like, 150 00:09:47.290 --> 00:09:50.770 never tried to. Well, I guess there was a time that all of us had 151 00:09:50.770 --> 00:09:54.760 to try to assimilate, to even prove that we could 152 00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:58.680 be in the field. So, you know, with anything, after you try 153 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:02.000 to fit a mould and you don't fit, you just might as well blow it 154 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.560 out. So we decided to just blow the mould out. I love the 155 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:09.040 structure of ballet and what it affords. I love the 156 00:10:09.040 --> 00:10:13.000 absolute. I'm a systems kind of person, so I like things 157 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.880 that you can replicate and build upon. But again, once 158 00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:20.600 you get to that level of knowledge and proficiency, what's 159 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.300 next? So I found that I had become bored with the 160 00:10:24.300 --> 00:10:28.180 regular steps and I wanted to do more. And both of us really 161 00:10:28.180 --> 00:10:31.420 loved African dance and the drums from Africa. 162 00:10:32.060 --> 00:10:35.980 That's where it all began. So we both studied African 163 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:39.420 dance and so we were like, what if we put a little mix and a 164 00:10:39.420 --> 00:10:43.260 little blend along with that? Soul music and R and B 165 00:10:43.900 --> 00:10:47.420 and Give something that will bring in other people. 166 00:10:48.140 --> 00:10:51.660 Just like you said, that we're not interested in the staunch 167 00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:55.500 standstill elitism of what people think of 168 00:10:55.500 --> 00:10:59.300 as ballet. So as we started to build our company, a lot of people were 169 00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:02.940 like, I hate ballet. So it became this problem that we'll 170 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:06.740 solve. You hate ballet? Okay, we're going to show you a 171 00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:09.900 different kind of ballet. So we started creating 172 00:11:10.060 --> 00:11:13.820 programmes that were more accessible and so people could see 173 00:11:13.820 --> 00:11:17.730 themselves on stage. And so that was what we set out to do 174 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:21.370 and it really became something very effective and 175 00:11:21.450 --> 00:11:25.290 very much exciting. And the other part is that we had to 176 00:11:25.290 --> 00:11:28.730 explore where there were all kinds of body types, 177 00:11:29.210 --> 00:11:33.050 not just one mould of body types. So we had people 178 00:11:33.050 --> 00:11:37.050 all sizes. We had very small, petite people, we had medium sized people, 179 00:11:37.210 --> 00:11:41.050 and we had some large, shapely women, and we put them all 180 00:11:41.050 --> 00:11:44.730 on stage. We took a lot of heat from that because people were like, those 181 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:48.670 are not ballet bodies. So we were like, what defines a ballet body? 182 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:52.270 We define it as a body that knows how to do ballet, but knows how 183 00:11:52.270 --> 00:11:56.270 to move effectively in space and creates excitement. 184 00:11:56.270 --> 00:12:00.190 Who cares if you have a stick thin body that's not 185 00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:04.190 exciting to watch, where you had these curvier bodies of all 186 00:12:04.190 --> 00:12:07.630 sizes? And it wasn't just black girls. We had girls that were 187 00:12:07.630 --> 00:12:11.630 Korean. They were from all parts of the world. One 188 00:12:11.630 --> 00:12:15.440 of our really beautiful dancers, she was tie, but she had a 189 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.840 curvy body and she had hips and boobs, so she was always 190 00:12:18.920 --> 00:12:22.800 overlooked. But then when she came and started doing our 191 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:26.360 work, people were like, I like the way that looks. People 192 00:12:26.520 --> 00:12:30.440 saw themselves on the stage and then people would come to 193 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:34.160 our shows and go, I like this kind of ballet. I like this 194 00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:38.040 ballet. So I'm a complete ballet 195 00:12:38.040 --> 00:12:41.880 novice. I know nothing about ballet other than getting guessing lucky 196 00:12:41.880 --> 00:12:45.770 about Swan Lake. And I've seen famous ballet people 197 00:12:45.770 --> 00:12:48.930 like Wayne Sleep in the uk, but I know nothing really, 198 00:12:49.890 --> 00:12:53.810 apart from the Russian, the Baltoy Ballet Company. So that's about 199 00:12:53.810 --> 00:12:57.370 my limit to ballet knowledge. So what makes ballet 200 00:12:57.370 --> 00:13:00.770 ballet, you know, traditional? Is it around the 201 00:13:01.170 --> 00:13:05.090 special shoes? Is it around the. Where you have to stand on your 202 00:13:05.090 --> 00:13:09.050 toes and point your. Yeah, that's what ballet 203 00:13:09.050 --> 00:13:12.620 is, is it? It's many things. It's a system 204 00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:16.940 that evolved from the Royal Courts, allegedly. But 205 00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:20.700 we also know that there was some travelling through Africa with 206 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:24.660 ballet, so it's a formal process. And because where it 207 00:13:24.660 --> 00:13:28.460 evolved from, the costuming was very rigid and strict and, 208 00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:32.260 you know, the corseted bodices, so it was all about 209 00:13:32.260 --> 00:13:36.020 the port de bras and bringing people into the royal 210 00:13:36.020 --> 00:13:39.950 courts so that you could see the whole tradition 211 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:43.870 and the formality of movement. But then it emerged beyond 212 00:13:43.870 --> 00:13:47.750 the courts, and people really started to extend and lift 213 00:13:47.750 --> 00:13:51.550 their legs higher, which meant that the costuming had to be lighter and 214 00:13:51.550 --> 00:13:55.390 change. So it's a formulative set of steps 215 00:13:55.390 --> 00:13:58.910 that are rotated outwards, built and steeped in 216 00:13:58.910 --> 00:14:02.830 culture. But now people are taking that culture and 217 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:06.270 moving it to a different era where there are higher 218 00:14:06.350 --> 00:14:09.760 legs, more movement. They're blending it with other 219 00:14:09.760 --> 00:14:13.680 culture, blending it with other dance forms, so that it is 220 00:14:13.680 --> 00:14:17.560 more exciting. And I think we, as ballethnic, we 221 00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:21.360 had a lot to do with informing that evolution, 222 00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:25.040 because, again, you don't want something that's 223 00:14:25.520 --> 00:14:29.360 built with elitism, not affordable. And as 224 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:33.280 you stated, ballet takes a lot of years of training to 225 00:14:33.280 --> 00:14:37.280 get at the top level, a lot of sacrifice, because for me, 226 00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:41.460 we're always in tight clothing, tight costumes to show and 227 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:45.220 to reflect the body. So that means you're not going to be 228 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:49.180 eating like a bunch of big fattening things if you're going to 229 00:14:49.180 --> 00:14:53.060 be on stage. And also, just like swimming and other sports, you can't 230 00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:56.860 eat a bunch and then use your body physically, it does not 231 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:00.540 work. You will cramp up. So there's all those things that go with it. 232 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:04.860 The highest form of ballet, you start with ballet or technique, soft 233 00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:08.810 shoes, and then build up to standing sur la pointe or on the 234 00:15:08.810 --> 00:15:12.650 tips of your toes. And that takes a lot of training and alignment 235 00:15:12.650 --> 00:15:16.450 so that you build the proper structure and muscles so that you 236 00:15:16.450 --> 00:15:20.250 can be strong enough to stand on your toes and be partnered by others on 237 00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:23.730 your toes. So really, it takes a good 10 years 238 00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:28.170 to really be proficient and competent in ballet. And 239 00:15:28.170 --> 00:15:32.050 then, you know, as soon as you really get there, then your body starts to 240 00:15:32.050 --> 00:15:36.050 age and you've got all this knowledge and confidence. But then, you know, 241 00:15:36.050 --> 00:15:39.990 just like a great athlete athlete, the wear and tear on your body can 242 00:15:39.990 --> 00:15:43.870 be detrimental. I feel like I'm pretty lucky because I started dance 243 00:15:44.030 --> 00:15:47.750 later. So I had a whole normal life before I started 244 00:15:47.750 --> 00:15:51.630 dancing at 13. And therefore, I was able to dance 245 00:15:51.790 --> 00:15:55.590 a lot longer than some of my counterparts, people that started 246 00:15:55.590 --> 00:15:59.350 when they were three and five. I didn't even dance 247 00:15:59.350 --> 00:16:03.350 until I was about hitting puberty. And that's another thing. When your body hits 248 00:16:03.350 --> 00:16:07.070 puberty and it changes. So there's so many things with being 249 00:16:07.710 --> 00:16:11.670 revealed through dance where your body is your tool, and as 250 00:16:11.670 --> 00:16:15.670 you grow up and your mind and your body expands, you have to, 251 00:16:15.670 --> 00:16:19.590 like, really grow into your new body. For people who start at 252 00:16:19.590 --> 00:16:23.230 a young age, so they start out with this young body. You go through puberty, 253 00:16:23.230 --> 00:16:27.230 your body changes. Then you have to learn how to move in an extraordinary 254 00:16:27.230 --> 00:16:30.350 way with your new teen and young adult body. 255 00:16:31.270 --> 00:16:35.030 So there's so many layers and evolutions of being like a 256 00:16:35.030 --> 00:16:39.030 professional, professional, proficient dancer. 257 00:16:39.030 --> 00:16:42.790 So to me, correct me if I'm wrong, traditional 258 00:16:42.790 --> 00:16:46.590 ballet is all about elongating limbs very 259 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:50.590 pointy as much in the expression, in the hands and the 260 00:16:50.590 --> 00:16:54.550 feet. But the body is pretty rigid in the middle, isn't it? It 261 00:16:54.550 --> 00:16:58.310 may be a bend over, but it doesn't really do. It's jerky, sort of 262 00:16:58.470 --> 00:17:02.470 mechanical type movements. Whereas when I think about ethnic, danc, 263 00:17:02.770 --> 00:17:06.290 tribal dancing, this is boobs and booty. 264 00:17:06.690 --> 00:17:10.610 This is a full body experience. Less about the 265 00:17:10.610 --> 00:17:14.530 hands, more about. More about the trunk, more about the trunk movement and 266 00:17:14.530 --> 00:17:18.370 the visual. So how do you blend the two? Is this still the traditional 267 00:17:18.930 --> 00:17:22.890 standing on your toes and the elongating with a bit of 268 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:26.850 trunk movement as well? Are you getting me so excited, Jo? That's 269 00:17:26.850 --> 00:17:30.410 part of what we started to do when we were talking about that swan leg. 270 00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:33.880 So we would be standing with our torsos more taut and 271 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.840 rigid, and then we would add the undulation of the hips 272 00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:41.680 and the ribs moving forward, moving in ripples. In 273 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.520 ripples, like the waves of water. So that's what 274 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:49.360 was exciting for us because, as you said, ethnic dances, African 275 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:53.200 dances, many of the other dances, the torso 276 00:17:53.360 --> 00:17:57.320 is empowered and it moves to the music and the structure of the 277 00:17:57.320 --> 00:18:00.240 music. So you have this polyrhythmic 278 00:18:01.040 --> 00:18:05.040 juxtaposition with the legs and the body while still holding 279 00:18:05.040 --> 00:18:08.920 balance. So that has been really the crux of our work, 280 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.880 is taking this body that's trained in ballet and 281 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.879 learning how to move it against both sides. 282 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.680 So it's exciting. One of our most famous ballets 283 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.600 is called the Leopard Tail, and it's a storey about a 284 00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:28.360 leopard that invades a village and he invades an African 285 00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:32.200 village. So part of the work in Part 2, or Act 2, is that the 286 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:36.080 village women show their bodies undulating on top of their 287 00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:39.880 pointe shoes and the men using their torsos. So it's like 288 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.840 a freedom of movement, a freedom of expression. 289 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.000 We are no longer restricted to just this straight up body, 290 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.080 but that your body can move like a wave from the top of your 291 00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:55.870 head all the way down to the soles of your feet. But the feet 292 00:18:55.870 --> 00:18:59.790 can still point, but they can also flex. So there's so much 293 00:18:59.790 --> 00:19:03.630 more freedom and expression as a regular person. 294 00:19:03.870 --> 00:19:07.790 So I feel like that ballet helped us to incorporate 295 00:19:07.870 --> 00:19:11.550 so many other people, especially people that just love to 296 00:19:11.550 --> 00:19:14.750 dance. I'm just, I'm going to have to try and find your website after this 297 00:19:14.750 --> 00:19:18.710 recording and just, and just see some video on this because it sounds 298 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:21.790 absolutely fascinating. It's. In some respects it sounds 299 00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:26.560 harder to master because you've got, you've got all the concentration on trying 300 00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:29.880 to perform the traditional ballet type stances. 301 00:19:30.520 --> 00:19:34.480 Yet as you say, get undulating, get your, your 302 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.280 body, your booty, your boobies, everything going in different directions and 303 00:19:38.280 --> 00:19:41.880 get the expression. Because ballet is often expressionist as well. It's very, very, 304 00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:45.880 very straight faced. But I'm guessing you're going to be really living 305 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.710 that in your facial expressions as well. I love that you're touching on 306 00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:53.550 all the things because joy has to be expressed. 307 00:19:53.950 --> 00:19:57.950 So when we started teaching the ballet with all these other mediums, 308 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:02.110 the eyes became more involved, the smile, the neck and 309 00:20:02.110 --> 00:20:06.030 the head. Because in ballet typically we don't get to move our heads like 310 00:20:06.030 --> 00:20:09.830 from side to side or isolations of the head and the neck. So it 311 00:20:09.830 --> 00:20:13.670 brings on this whole joyous expression. But some of the people who were 312 00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:17.390 more balletically trained, it was scary for them at first. They 313 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:21.150 couldn't let go of their bodies. And again, I'm going to refer back to the 314 00:20:21.150 --> 00:20:24.790 leopard tail because as we know with animals, animals are not 315 00:20:24.790 --> 00:20:28.550 afraid to turn around backwards, stick their booties 316 00:20:28.550 --> 00:20:32.270 up, especially cats. So the leopard is a 317 00:20:32.270 --> 00:20:36.070 cat. And part of the dance in a leopard tail, the leopard 318 00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:40.150 meets the leopardess and they mate. So part of the 319 00:20:40.150 --> 00:20:43.960 attraction is moving your body, arching your body up like a cat. 320 00:20:44.670 --> 00:20:48.510 So when we first did that, people were gasping, literally 321 00:20:48.510 --> 00:20:52.230 in certain markets and audiences, people were clutching their 322 00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:56.190 pearls. They were like, you guys turned your butt to the audience and you arched 323 00:20:56.190 --> 00:21:00.069 your back. I was the first leopardess and I had to deal with the 324 00:21:00.069 --> 00:21:03.990 harsh criticism of the people who were like very 325 00:21:03.990 --> 00:21:07.630 uncomfortable with their bodies. And then the 326 00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:11.390 celebration of people who understood the importance of 327 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:15.190 that freedom that we were bringing to the stage. And, and it was a very 328 00:21:15.190 --> 00:21:19.070 complex time for me because we were a young company 329 00:21:19.070 --> 00:21:22.630 and we were trying to build audiences. We didn't want to alienate people. 330 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:26.550 We wanted to be authentic and true. And with this ballet 331 00:21:26.790 --> 00:21:30.310 we were able to bring in all kinds of body types and we were wearing 332 00:21:30.310 --> 00:21:34.150 like catsuits or unitards is what we called. So they were slick 333 00:21:34.150 --> 00:21:37.830 things that were tight to your body. And again, as I said earlier, 334 00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:41.480 there are people with really small bodies and people with large 335 00:21:41.560 --> 00:21:45.320 bodies. But we said, what better way to celebrate 336 00:21:45.320 --> 00:21:48.800 people than to use a ballet about animals, because the 337 00:21:48.800 --> 00:21:52.720 animal kingdom, in fact, really, a lot of times if you're a 338 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.680 bigger animal, you might survive the jungle better. So there were 339 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:00.640 so many lessons to tell through this storey, the leopard tale, because we had 340 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.600 the cats, we had the wild dogs, we had hyenas, we had 341 00:22:04.600 --> 00:22:08.120 snakes. So we could do the metaphor of how snakes come in and they can 342 00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:11.740 take you out. You don't even know they're there. And all of these 343 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:15.540 bodies got to move very stealthily, 344 00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:19.940 using all the isolations of the head, the neck, the body, 345 00:22:20.020 --> 00:22:23.900 the torso. So it was kind of freedom that we developed. And 346 00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:27.860 the freedom was metaphoric in that it was not just freedom of the 347 00:22:27.860 --> 00:22:31.820 body from the ballet, but freedom of your spirit to 348 00:22:31.820 --> 00:22:35.780 express who you are and to become your authentic self. 349 00:22:35.780 --> 00:22:39.340 I couldn't resist nipping onto your website as you were talking there, because I 350 00:22:39.340 --> 00:22:43.130 needed to translate the picture you're 351 00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:47.130 giving me and I needed to see that and I needed to 352 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:50.410 get a reference point, just to help me revisualize, make sure I was on the 353 00:22:50.410 --> 00:22:53.610 right track. And if you're listening to this now, let me just, 354 00:22:54.090 --> 00:22:58.004 whilst you're listening, nip onto this website as well. But bellehnic.org b a 355 00:22:58.103 --> 00:23:02.010 l l e t h n I c.org 356 00:23:02.010 --> 00:23:05.810 pop on there now. And there's a video sort of showing on the 357 00:23:05.810 --> 00:23:08.720 homepage, isn't there? And it's. It reminds me of 358 00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:13.760 the Lion King stage show where you have 359 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.520 the characters and I presume they're the leopards on the 360 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.840 show here. And it's beautiful movement, beautiful 361 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:25.720 expression. It reminded me so much of the Lion King stage show, the way 362 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.640 the human animal characters were interacting 363 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:33.600 with each other and sort of looking animal like 364 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:37.280 in their movement as well. I could see the leopard in them as they're moving, 365 00:23:37.280 --> 00:23:40.920 but still, as you say, with that. That traditional ballet 366 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.480 feel in a way as well. And you name like the 367 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.120 elongation and the lengthening, lengthening of the body. It still 368 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:51.960 exists, but there's also the groundedness. So we have had 369 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.920 guest dancers come from other companies or trainings. And 370 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.800 what was difficult for them is to crouch really low, how animals get 371 00:23:59.800 --> 00:24:03.760 really low, and to use your arms, like paws 372 00:24:03.760 --> 00:24:07.740 or legs. So it's hard on the hamstrings and it takes a 373 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:11.740 lot of conditioning to achieve that. And for the dancers, what 374 00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:15.660 was fun for me, there's an arts and crafts part because we have our 375 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:19.460 pointe shoes and we got to decorate, like the leopardess shoes, 376 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.260 to put the spots on it, and the gold rosettes the way the 377 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:27.220 leopards or cheetahs have in the wild. And then the bodysuits 378 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:31.180 have the spots as well. And then back when we do 379 00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:35.020 the really big stage shows for a long run, we would spread spray our hair 380 00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:38.780 gold, and then you would make your full. Learn how to do your full 381 00:24:38.780 --> 00:24:42.620 cat face. If you were a cat. If you were a snake, we learned how 382 00:24:42.620 --> 00:24:46.460 to do glitter scales. So imagine this ballet 383 00:24:46.460 --> 00:24:50.260 has given so much to us because it has so many layers of 384 00:24:50.260 --> 00:24:53.820 intricacies that people were interested. And even with the 385 00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:57.300 parents who were crafty and got away from it, 386 00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:01.660 they would help with the costumes and with the shoes. And it 387 00:25:01.660 --> 00:25:05.660 was just a really. If we go back to that centering, centering 388 00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:09.340 community through dance, that we all work together 389 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:13.660 to achieve something great and to celebrate every 390 00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:17.740 type of body in our community. And not to say 391 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:21.420 you're not good enough because you don't weigh 99 392 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:25.380 pounds, everybody mattered. As long as you can move and that you're 393 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:29.300 committed to the movement and committed to the celebration of 394 00:25:29.300 --> 00:25:32.930 the full community. I don't think I've ever weighed 395 00:25:32.930 --> 00:25:36.490 99 pounds. Maybe. 396 00:25:38.330 --> 00:25:41.210 Maybe the first six months of my life, but, yeah, I don't think. I don't 397 00:25:41.210 --> 00:25:45.170 think I've ever built to be that. That skinny. No. How many dance troupes 398 00:25:45.170 --> 00:25:49.050 are there performing this style? It presumably is beyond 399 00:25:49.050 --> 00:25:52.730 just. Just your local one that you. You have a network across the States. 400 00:25:53.370 --> 00:25:57.330 See, I don't know how many are performing this style. There are a lot 401 00:25:57.330 --> 00:26:01.250