WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:19.075 your guide on this. Journey of exploration into the heart 4 00:00:19.075 --> 00:00:21.911 of inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:21.911 --> 00:00:25.897 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to 6 00:00:25.897 --> 00:00:29.797 create a world without? Remember, everyone not only 7 00:00:29.797 --> 00:00:33.696 belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.696 --> 00:00:37.330 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and 9 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:41.050 share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to 10 00:00:41.050 --> 00:00:44.948 dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.948 --> 00:00:48.491 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:48.491 --> 00:00:52.390 reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.390 --> 00:00:56.199 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:56.199 --> 00:01:00.098 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your 15 00:01:00.098 --> 00:01:04.070 insights or to join me on the show. So adjust 16 00:01:04.070 --> 00:01:07.950 your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the 17 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:10.830 spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.480 And today is episode 205 with 19 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:22.320 the title Men Beyond Survival. I have 20 00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:26.240 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Tom Gold. Tom is a 21 00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:30.240 Bushcraft instructor and life coach who helps 22 00:01:30.240 --> 00:01:34.040 men build real mental fitness in the outdoors, in the bar, 23 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:38.040 beyond performative well being Talk. When I asked Tom to describe his 24 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.880 superpower, he said that it is resetting in nature. One night out 25 00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:45.730 with a tarp, a notebook and sleeping bag and then coming back a new 26 00:01:45.730 --> 00:01:49.730 man. Hello, Tom, welcome to the show. Jo, thanks very much for having me 27 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:52.890 on the show. And by the way, belated congratulations on 28 00:01:53.050 --> 00:01:56.890 205 episodes. You've just passed your double 29 00:01:56.890 --> 00:02:00.450 century. That's brilliant. Yeah, it's been a real achievement going since 30 00:02:00.450 --> 00:02:04.450 2005. 2020, sorry, five coming up for 31 00:02:04.450 --> 00:02:08.330 six years ago. This was started pre Covid. Yeah, I've had a number of 32 00:02:08.330 --> 00:02:12.119 guests from all over the world. It's been fascinating and. And yourself, you 33 00:02:12.119 --> 00:02:15.439 know, very diverse guests from different or from different 34 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:19.599 perspective. Different. Different. Different areas. And yeah, I'm 35 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.399 really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you, Tom. For those of you 36 00:02:23.399 --> 00:02:27.238 who listen to this and not watching, Tom is wearing a beanie and a 37 00:02:27.238 --> 00:02:31.119 jumper and he's happened to mention that he's in the middle of nowhere in some 38 00:02:31.119 --> 00:02:34.399 part of Scotland. So, Tom, where are you at the moment? Yeah, it's. It's a 39 00:02:34.399 --> 00:02:37.199 rural area just north of Glasgow. Little village called 40 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:42.250 Balfron. I can see the Campsie Fells out of my window. They're a 41 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:45.610 bit fogged in today. There's no snow up there. It's a very, very beautiful place. 42 00:02:45.610 --> 00:02:49.210 I'm extremely lucky, to be honest, Jo. And, yeah, this was my choice to. 43 00:02:49.450 --> 00:02:53.450 To live out here. I can walk out of my Door and be in 44 00:02:53.850 --> 00:02:57.770 forest, woodland, hills in no time flat. And that works. 45 00:02:57.930 --> 00:03:01.930 Works pretty good for me, definitely. So you, you work in the outdoors. 46 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:05.830 So you're a bushcraft instructor, life coach. Did the where 47 00:03:05.830 --> 00:03:09.750 you live influence what you do or does what you do influence where you live? 48 00:03:09.830 --> 00:03:13.750 I was pretty heavily influenced by my dad 49 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:17.630 growing up. He had a still does. 50 00:03:17.630 --> 00:03:21.590 I still have him. He's still around. A really impressive range of skills. 51 00:03:21.670 --> 00:03:25.470 My dad can navigate by the stars, he can find wild 52 00:03:25.470 --> 00:03:29.350 edibles in their hedgerows, he could light a fire with all sorts 53 00:03:29.350 --> 00:03:33.200 of very primitive methodologies. And as a 54 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.280 small kid growing up in Northamptonshire, which is where we were, 55 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.680 there were always adventures. We were having bonfires, we were 56 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.200 building dens, camps, doing crazy, 57 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:49.040 dangerous things. We abseiled the local quarry on some 58 00:03:49.040 --> 00:03:52.640 ropes that dad had found at the dump. We paddled our leaky old 59 00:03:52.720 --> 00:03:56.600 inflatable dinghy down the longest canal tunnel 60 00:03:56.600 --> 00:04:00.600 in Britain. Yeah, there were great adventures growing up. I mean, you know, we were 61 00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:03.930 only little and it all felt pretty real and exciting 62 00:04:05.450 --> 00:04:08.570 and yeah, if there's one, I did, if you want to know where it started, 63 00:04:08.570 --> 00:04:12.570 it started with him, really. Fair play to him. And this is all 64 00:04:13.050 --> 00:04:16.930 seek forgiveness rather than ask for, ask for permission. So you're just 65 00:04:16.930 --> 00:04:20.930 doing this and getting on with it and if someone chased you away, you just 66 00:04:20.930 --> 00:04:24.770 run away and go back another day. Well, in the summer holidays, which could 67 00:04:24.770 --> 00:04:28.610 seem quite long, I was lucky. I grew up in a little village and there 68 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:32.330 were a lot of other boys. And my old man had this idea of 69 00:04:32.330 --> 00:04:36.330 forming a group with the boys and the dads in the summer holidays. And 70 00:04:36.330 --> 00:04:39.970 it was called the UDF Club, which stood for 71 00:04:40.370 --> 00:04:44.370 Utterly devoid of fear, which was something that came out of, 72 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:48.250 I discovered later, the Eagle comic, long since defunct, which 73 00:04:48.250 --> 00:04:52.050 dad had read as a boy. So only people who were utterly 74 00:04:52.050 --> 00:04:56.050 devoid of fear could deal in on these adventures. And 75 00:04:57.250 --> 00:05:01.010 it would always end up with a picnic somewhere, but would involve some 76 00:05:01.250 --> 00:05:05.010 death defying health and safety vortex of a 77 00:05:05.330 --> 00:05:09.250 adventure. And I look back on all those times just with great 78 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:13.089 fondness and happiness. And it formed a kind of blueprint for when it 79 00:05:13.089 --> 00:05:16.890 was my turn to be a dad, you know, I mean, moving forward a few 80 00:05:16.890 --> 00:05:20.530 years, you know, I gave a few more nods to health and safety than 81 00:05:21.010 --> 00:05:24.970 my father did. But I think looking back on that, for all the jokes 82 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:28.690 he made about our slim chances of success and almost 83 00:05:29.230 --> 00:05:33.230 certain doom, dad never took his eye off the ball, you 84 00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:36.470 know, I always knew that if it came to the crunch, he'd bring us through 85 00:05:36.470 --> 00:05:40.270 it sometimes it was a close run 86 00:05:40.350 --> 00:05:44.310 thing, but I learned a lot about trust that way as well. I 87 00:05:44.310 --> 00:05:48.190 knew what it was to trust someone and I learned early in life what it 88 00:05:48.190 --> 00:05:52.190 took to, to elicit that in other people, what you 89 00:05:52.190 --> 00:05:56.190 needed to do. So yes, it was, yeah, it was, you know, it 90 00:05:56.190 --> 00:06:00.120 was a happy childhood and it's influenced a lot of 91 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.960 what's happened in later years. Definitely. Do we do enough of that 92 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:07.960 in the modern world? I mean, having everything you're saying there and the way 93 00:06:07.960 --> 00:06:11.920 you learned those skills from your father and you'll pass them on to your, I 94 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.680 guess, your sons and your children and the work you do now, are we 95 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.680 living too much behind computer screens in houses and we're not getting 96 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.640 out there and taking risks and challenging ourselves physically and 97 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:27.440 mentally in that way? Yeah, I think, you know, your listeners and 98 00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:31.340 viewers will be expecting the crusty looking old guy with a 99 00:06:31.340 --> 00:06:35.340 white beard and woollen hat to have some very clear views on that. And yeah, 100 00:06:35.340 --> 00:06:39.180 I do think there's still tremendous value in it. It 101 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:43.060 can be tempered with health and safety. But the idea of 102 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:47.060 the, you know, weekend or Saturday morning adventure, 103 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:51.060 I think it's still eminently doable. I mean, a lot of the work that 104 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:55.060 I've done in the past and continue to do with young 105 00:06:55.060 --> 00:06:58.980 people and with some, what seemed to me very young dads is 106 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:02.860 empowering them with the skills to, you know, to say, right, 107 00:07:02.940 --> 00:07:06.260 here's what we're doing this weekend, you know, we're going to make a wee fire 108 00:07:06.260 --> 00:07:09.900 out here, we'll toast some marshmallows, maybe we'll find some 109 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:13.780 animal tracks, whatever. And then, you know, what if the 110 00:07:13.780 --> 00:07:17.780 rest of the weekend is spent with everyone on their screens? It's 111 00:07:17.780 --> 00:07:21.460 still a win, it's still a win for the team and it 112 00:07:21.460 --> 00:07:25.420 builds really, really powerful memories that you carry forward with you. 113 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:28.980 I mean, ask me how I know that into later life. One of the, 114 00:07:29.220 --> 00:07:33.220 I think it is the most like, pleasing bit of feedback I ever 115 00:07:33.220 --> 00:07:36.980 got was from a young man who'd been in a drugs and alcohol recovery 116 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:40.900 group. He'd had his, his difficulties and challenges, that's for certain. 117 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:45.260 He hadn't had any unsupervised time with his five year 118 00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:49.140 old son in three years, which was shocking because to me 119 00:07:49.140 --> 00:07:52.940 he seemed like a young guy. Anyway, as part of the session that we were 120 00:07:52.940 --> 00:07:56.160 doing larger group, we ended up making 121 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.600 pizzas on the campfire. It just turned out that's what we were doing. And 122 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:04.360 he wrote to me a week later because he'd had his first unsupervised 123 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:08.200 visit with his son and he said, this weekend we went out 124 00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:11.920 and we made pizzas on the fire and I just thought, that's 125 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.520 fantastic. He will, the little guy will remember that 126 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:19.640 for a long time that dad showed up with all the goods and 127 00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:23.360 the two of them had a fantastic first day out. I couldn't have 128 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:27.180 been happier for this guy, you know, it was well done to him. 129 00:08:27.260 --> 00:08:31.100 Yeah, I still think about that now. It was a couple of years back, but 130 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:35.020 yeah, well done to the brother. I sincerely hope things continue to work out 131 00:08:35.020 --> 00:08:38.900 for him. Children, in 132 00:08:38.900 --> 00:08:42.660 my view, definitely need mum time and dad time. They're different 133 00:08:42.660 --> 00:08:46.580 sorts of experiences. And we hear the jokes that dad 134 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:50.180 will bring you back filthy and mum will bring you back sort of clean and 135 00:08:50.180 --> 00:08:53.640 things like this. But I look at the way some of the things my children 136 00:08:53.800 --> 00:08:57.440 remember, they remember a time with me when they were younger going 137 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.200 camping not alone but in a group with other, other kids and 138 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.160 their, and their male figure in their life and they remember those times and 139 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.280 you bring them back alive and filthy and 140 00:09:09.280 --> 00:09:12.680 they've had a real whale of a time. And I think kids just need to 141 00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:16.560 have that outdoor experience where they are closer to the edge and 142 00:09:16.560 --> 00:09:20.487 not cocooned a little bit and that helps them grow. Yeah, I think 143 00:09:20.487 --> 00:09:24.414 with find out a lot that, that way. I remember the dilemma I had 144 00:09:24.414 --> 00:09:28.341 when I found out my boys and their pals aged anywhere between 5 145 00:09:28.341 --> 00:09:31.960 and, no, I think they're a little bit older than that. The 146 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.733 little group aged between about 6 and 9 had been exploring a 147 00:09:35.733 --> 00:09:39.583 ruined castle that's all fenced off not far from here, which 148 00:09:39.583 --> 00:09:43.433 had involved climbing quite high, very high into some of the 149 00:09:43.433 --> 00:09:47.360 windows. I mean, the whole building was condemned. And yeah, 150 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.056 it was a dilemma for me because on the one hand I felt that's 151 00:09:51.056 --> 00:09:54.906 exactly what they should be doing. They should be exploring 152 00:09:54.906 --> 00:09:58.679 these things and finding out what danger and a little bit of 153 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.375 fear actually feels like. But on the flip side of the coin, 154 00:10:02.375 --> 00:10:06.148 yeah, the place could have tumbled down on them at any time. 155 00:10:06.148 --> 00:10:10.087 They were taking some appalling risks. But this is, you know, 156 00:10:10.087 --> 00:10:13.870 in my view, how they develop some of those skills that will 157 00:10:13.870 --> 00:10:17.652 see them through later life. You know, they've got to know 158 00:10:17.652 --> 00:10:21.593 that difference between saying, yeah, I think, I think this 159 00:10:21.593 --> 00:10:25.297 is okay, and no, we should stop here and turn it around. If 160 00:10:25.297 --> 00:10:29.080 you've not experienced those things, it's a lot harder to 161 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:33.020 make an informed judgement call on that. You know, if you've 162 00:10:33.020 --> 00:10:36.724 never sort of felt your knees shaking as you sort of crawl 163 00:10:36.724 --> 00:10:40.665 across a very narrow object that's very high up then. Yeah, I 164 00:10:40.665 --> 00:10:44.448 think it's going to be a lot harder to make those judgement 165 00:10:44.448 --> 00:10:47.758 calls later. That probably sounds spectacularly 166 00:10:47.758 --> 00:10:51.696 irresponsible, but yeah, what happened was myself and Jack 167 00:10:51.696 --> 00:10:55.557 and Nicholas, we had a long talk about it afterwards, about 168 00:10:55.557 --> 00:10:59.416 how safe they felt and did they think this was a good thing to 169 00:10:59.416 --> 00:11:02.960 do. You know, at the end of the day they'd gone out for an 170 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:06.820 adventure, gone exploring with their friends. You know, I 171 00:11:06.820 --> 00:11:10.810 thoroughly approved. Yeah, I'm with you again 172 00:11:10.810 --> 00:11:14.690 on this. And I think that squeaky bum time is a learning opportunity 173 00:11:14.690 --> 00:11:18.690 because we don't learn without making mistakes or without having a reflection on something 174 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.450 without looking back on it. And I look at some of the things I've done, 175 00:11:21.770 --> 00:11:25.570 I've done static wires across courtyard in a castle in Poland 176 00:11:25.570 --> 00:11:28.890 and this was like 50 metres across. Okay. I was clipped on, I couldn't go 177 00:11:28.890 --> 00:11:32.850 anywhere. But when you get to that middle of the wire and the wire 178 00:11:32.850 --> 00:11:36.620 gap between the wire you're holding onto at the top and where you are stretches 179 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:40.260 and you're then suddenly right the tips of your fingers trying to cross this, you 180 00:11:40.260 --> 00:11:44.180 need those moments to sort of appreciate that feeling that reality, don't you? Yeah, 181 00:11:44.180 --> 00:11:48.180 they're moments of growth, I really believe that. And they can't really be 182 00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:51.860 experienced any other way. You know, I was saying that, you know, I 183 00:11:52.180 --> 00:11:55.900 took a very sort of kind of open minded view of some of the risks 184 00:11:55.900 --> 00:11:59.740 the boys were taking. But I do remember when I found out 185 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:03.660 they were playing Call of Duty with their friends and I said that 186 00:12:03.660 --> 00:12:07.140 I didn't want that. I certainly didn't want it happening in our house 187 00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:10.740 because taking one look at this game, it 188 00:12:11.540 --> 00:12:15.340 basically trivialised death. Their great grandfather 189 00:12:15.340 --> 00:12:18.900 gave his life fighting for our country. He would have been 190 00:12:18.900 --> 00:12:22.660 horrified because this was actually, it was a version of the D 191 00:12:22.660 --> 00:12:26.180 day landings. I think I said your great grandfather was actually 192 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:30.260 there. He would turn in his grave to think that this had been turned into 193 00:12:30.260 --> 00:12:33.830 a game. So it wasn't the fact that it's quite gory and 194 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:37.830 bloody, it was the fact that it really trivialised a sort of 195 00:12:38.870 --> 00:12:42.710 a moment that changed history. That, you know, so many like really 196 00:12:43.510 --> 00:12:47.510 tremendous, very brave men, you know, went across the Channel that 197 00:12:47.510 --> 00:12:51.430 day, their great granddad amongst them. And this was my objection to it. 198 00:12:51.430 --> 00:12:55.430 Just the trivialization of something so important. I 199 00:12:55.430 --> 00:12:59.300 said that as a recompense we could try in the 200 00:12:59.300 --> 00:13:02.940 little workshop I had in the garage to recreate some of the weapons and 201 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:06.740 equipment that were featured in the game which my now 202 00:13:06.740 --> 00:13:10.500 ex wife was Furious about. But I didn't want them playing Call Of 203 00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:14.060 Duty. It just, you know, it didn't. On a variety of levels, didn't sit right. 204 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:18.140 Yeah, I get that. Yeah. As you say, it's trivialising a. 205 00:13:18.700 --> 00:13:22.660 A really sad time, but also it trivialises 206 00:13:22.660 --> 00:13:26.330 what people sacrifice and. And what's going on at times, isn't it? So no 207 00:13:26.410 --> 00:13:30.290 attaching a score to it. Yeah. You know, making it competitive. You know, this 208 00:13:30.290 --> 00:13:32.650 is how many people you. You killed. 209 00:13:36.010 --> 00:13:39.330 Or you get killed yourself and you come back to life again straight away and 210 00:13:39.330 --> 00:13:43.330 it's. It's not reality. Is a. It's not reality. I guess maybe that 211 00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:47.050 desensitises people to knife crime and gun crime. You're so used to 212 00:13:47.290 --> 00:13:51.210 respawning when you get killed and then suddenly you walk in 213 00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:54.700 the streets with a knife or you're in gang violence and you're. 214 00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:58.220 Becomes more trivial because you're so used to being killed or killing. 215 00:13:58.860 --> 00:14:02.740 Well, I do wonder. That's behind some of it. Scotland, where I 216 00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:06.660 live, has a long and very unhappy history of knife crime going 217 00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:09.820 back quite some years. I 218 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:14.260 attended a session given by a youth outreach 219 00:14:14.260 --> 00:14:17.820 organisation in Glasgow about this sort of endemic 220 00:14:18.310 --> 00:14:22.310 knife crime in a part of the city called Easter House, which was 221 00:14:22.310 --> 00:14:26.310 absolutely chilling. A number of young men who were dying over 222 00:14:26.310 --> 00:14:30.270 nothing. Over nothing of any tangible value. They weren't even 223 00:14:30.270 --> 00:14:34.230 fighting over sort of drug territories or money or anything. Absolutely 224 00:14:34.230 --> 00:14:38.070 horrific. Yeah. I mean, that's another storey. But these were 225 00:14:38.550 --> 00:14:42.510 boys in their teens with, you know, their whole lives in front of 226 00:14:42.510 --> 00:14:45.910 them and for. Yeah, reasons I still don't fully understand. 227 00:14:46.650 --> 00:14:50.570 You know, for some years there, it was absolute carnage. Some very brave 228 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:54.970 people took it upon themselves to turn that around with this 229 00:14:55.050 --> 00:14:58.970 outreach programme. I don't think I've ever been more impressed by anything in my life 230 00:14:59.690 --> 00:15:03.450 because they could have just left. They could have just got to live someplace 231 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:07.402 else. Yeah, that was. Yeah, impressive. So that might be a bit of 232 00:15:07.402 --> 00:15:11.170 a tangent, Jo. No, not at all. It's worth exploring 233 00:15:11.170 --> 00:15:14.740 that. One of the things we'll talk about before we click the record button is 234 00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:18.660 that you have struggling to come to terms with the fact that your. Your. 235 00:15:18.660 --> 00:15:21.980 Your boys, which we've been talking about, have now become men. What do you mean 236 00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:25.780 by that? Yeah. I always wanted to be a 237 00:15:25.780 --> 00:15:29.540 dad. I'd always wanted to have sons as a first choice. 238 00:15:29.780 --> 00:15:33.700 I think I would have done a pretty good job if I'd had girls. But 239 00:15:33.780 --> 00:15:36.740 I feel exceptionally lucky. I had two 240 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:41.300 fine, healthy little boys. They're 18 and 19 now, 241 00:15:41.620 --> 00:15:45.540 and based on the blueprint I got from my dad. We spent a lot 242 00:15:45.540 --> 00:15:49.480 of time doing, you know, crazy things. We went on lots of adventures 243 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.280 in our canoe in the. The lochs around here. We 244 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:57.120 built dens, we lit fires, we camped out with their friends and 245 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.720 it was. It was a lot of fun. Endless nonsense. And 246 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.280 also that role of being their dad. You know, when their mum and I 247 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:09.320 split up and I moved in here, the house was. It looked 248 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.800 very, very sad. It hadn't been lived in for a long time and it was 249 00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:16.660 nothing like the place they'd, you know, that their mum still had. And 250 00:16:16.660 --> 00:16:20.660 I said, our job here is to make this into the coolest house in the 251 00:16:20.660 --> 00:16:24.620 street. So, you know, that is our mission. So we're going to make furniture, 252 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:27.460 we're going to redecorate, we're going to do a lot of this stuff. And it 253 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:31.140 felt like a. Again, it felt like a bit of an adventure. We even had 254 00:16:31.140 --> 00:16:34.140 a long discussion about what we should call it. And we came up with the 255 00:16:34.140 --> 00:16:38.060 awesome House as its official name, which they're very 256 00:16:38.060 --> 00:16:42.060 embarrassed to be reminded about now in front of their friends. And, 257 00:16:42.140 --> 00:16:45.950 yeah, they've both. They've both moved out, moved on. That is 258 00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:49.870 sad. You know, I have recollections of the, you know, crazy stuff we 259 00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:53.750 did and I realised that's a chapter that's now closed. How they turned right 260 00:16:53.750 --> 00:16:57.590 in front of my eyes into, you know, confident 261 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:02.710 young men and now they're. They're running their own thing. And, yeah, that's 262 00:17:02.710 --> 00:17:06.230 been a little bit difficult sometimes. And I have to be very conscious, 263 00:17:06.390 --> 00:17:10.310 not when we're together, not to be constantly harking back to those 264 00:17:10.990 --> 00:17:14.590 times, which for them are now the sort of dim, distant past. 265 00:17:14.830 --> 00:17:18.750 For me, they're some of the happiest moments of my life. And that can 266 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:22.510 be a little bit difficult. And for reasons I'm still not 267 00:17:22.510 --> 00:17:26.230 absolutely sure about, I still worry about them a lot. You know, they 268 00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:29.470 don't need anyone to do that for them, 269 00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:33.830 but I still do. I try and keep the lid on it and, you know, 270 00:17:33.830 --> 00:17:36.670 I'm not, like, expressing that to them. So, yeah, it's been. 271 00:17:37.750 --> 00:17:41.550 It's been tough. You know, I'm still their dad. My role has changed now. 272 00:17:41.550 --> 00:17:45.190 I'm there to sort of support and encourage and assist 273 00:17:45.590 --> 00:17:49.110 where I can, but the decisions, well, they're pretty much 274 00:17:49.350 --> 00:17:53.230 all theirs. That's really the way it's. It's got to be. But 275 00:17:53.230 --> 00:17:56.990 I even miss little things, like, you know, at 9:30 each night we'd 276 00:17:56.990 --> 00:18:00.950 have countdown to initiate Wi Fi. Shutdown 277 00:18:00.950 --> 00:18:04.900 where I'd pull the router and, like, take it to bed with me. And 278 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:08.540 there'd be this, you know, big countdown or sort of 279 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:13.260 pizza nights when we used to make our own pizzas or what they 280 00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:17.100 christened sad Chinese, which was when the Chinese 281 00:18:17.100 --> 00:18:21.100 takeaway, which we didn't use very often here, shut. And I said, well, hey, don't 282 00:18:21.100 --> 00:18:24.540 worry, I can do Chinese. Anyway, it was christened 283 00:18:24.620 --> 00:18:28.420 sad Chinese because Dad had made it. Yeah, I miss those things a 284 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:31.770 lot. But, you know, I got to remember that we did most of it in 285 00:18:31.770 --> 00:18:35.570 order to encourage them to be the independent men that they 286 00:18:35.570 --> 00:18:39.090 are now. So, yeah, this was the trade off. 287 00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:43.370 It's difficult. Some days it's difficult, but, you know, this is what I wanted. This 288 00:18:43.370 --> 00:18:47.290 is what we worked for. So, yeah, my youngest, Nicholas, 289 00:18:47.290 --> 00:18:50.770 got himself into a lot of trouble some years back, which, 290 00:18:51.010 --> 00:18:54.530 yeah, a tremendous amount of stress and worry for me. 291 00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:58.610 I honestly didn't know if he was going to survive his teens 292 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.440 or whether he'd actually end up doing time. And I think 293 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.480 as dads were fitted with a can't quit switch. 294 00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:11.080 It's like a wiring problem that just doesn't let you walk away. 295 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.360 You are stuck with it until you win or it ends. 296 00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:18.640 And that was hard because obviously I couldn't give up on Nicholas. But yeah, he 297 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.600 put us through it and no mistake. Yeah, we're out the other side. 298 00:19:26.050 --> 00:19:30.050 In the intro, I use the word performative. And we've talked 299 00:19:30.050 --> 00:19:33.730 about this in our briefing call before this and when we first got on 300 00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:37.810 before we press record. The challenge at the moment is men are being 301 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:41.250 encouraged to speak up and 302 00:19:41.570 --> 00:19:45.530 have conversations and not be alone when they're suffering their 303 00:19:45.530 --> 00:19:49.330 mental health. And one of the things we talked about the other day when we 304 00:19:49.330 --> 00:19:53.040 did the briefing was the. The fact that not every man wants to speak 305 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.000 and have a Kumbaya, sit around and share all their 306 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.880 feelings all the time. And so how do we as a society engage 307 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.400 with people who are very introspective and not big 308 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.320 talkers or make assumptions that they're suffering, maybe they're 309 00:20:08.320 --> 00:20:12.040 not. They can still be part of it even if they don't want to say 310 00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:15.840 anything. I've run a lot of men's groups, either 311 00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:19.040 like as actual men's groups or groups that turned out to be 312 00:20:19.360 --> 00:20:23.280 exclusively men. And you'll get a lot of guys who won't say anything, but, you 313 00:20:23.280 --> 00:20:26.880 know, they actually. They're in a good place because I run a lot of my 314 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.760 sessions outdoors. You'll find some guys who just want to chop Wood 315 00:20:30.760 --> 00:20:34.680 or saw up timber and split it with an axe for sort of most 316 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.600 of the session. Tender fire, etc. Just enjoy the space. And 317 00:20:38.600 --> 00:20:42.120 I'm totally okay with that. They are part of the group. They're 318 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:46.080 contributing towards it. You know, they're sitting in with us and they're listening. 319 00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:49.780 If they're not ready to speak, that's absolutely fine. They certainly 320 00:20:49.860 --> 00:20:53.820 given to understand that they're not on their own while they're part of 321 00:20:53.820 --> 00:20:57.620 this. And when that guy, after sort of three sessions, 322 00:20:57.860 --> 00:21:01.620 you know, of saying nothing, clears his throat to speak, you know, 323 00:21:01.620 --> 00:21:04.780 it's going to be important. And if you've done your job right. If I've done 324 00:21:04.780 --> 00:21:08.340 my job right, then, you know, we've created that atmosphere where they feel 325 00:21:08.340 --> 00:21:12.140 okay to do that. And it's a funny thing that I've 326 00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:16.060 seen many times when somebody is brave enough to speak up and say, 327 00:21:16.060 --> 00:21:19.860 do you know what? I'm really struggling with this. Other people sitting around that 328 00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:23.680 same campfire will acknowledge it often in very subtle ways. It might be 329 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.520 a sort of a clap on the shoulder. It might just be a nod, or 330 00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:30.720 they might just say, yeah, I get it, you know, or I'm dealing with the 331 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.840 same thing. But I didn't want to say anything. So thank you for 332 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.120 sharing. I think there's an understanding that we can't all fix it. You 333 00:21:38.120 --> 00:21:41.335 know, we can't fix this for each other. But that sense of 334 00:21:41.335 --> 00:21:44.923 community can make a huge difference. You know, 335 00:21:44.923 --> 00:21:48.869 you're not the only person dealing with it. So, yeah, 336 00:21:48.869 --> 00:21:52.097 I think that pressure to talk more. I find it 337 00:21:52.097 --> 00:21:56.042 unhelpful at times. Men need to talk more. This is the 338 00:21:56.042 --> 00:21:59.808 message being pushed by DEI. And there aren't that 339 00:21:59.808 --> 00:22:03.305 many guys, men working in DEI. So I do sometimes 340 00:22:03.305 --> 00:22:06.981 wonder if, you know, people are just picking up on 341 00:22:06.981 --> 00:22:10.838 this popular trope, this comfortable, cartoonish 342 00:22:10.838 --> 00:22:14.740 image of a man who, you know, he can't cook. He might take 343 00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:18.610 six weeks to put up a set of shelves and he doesn't talk about stuff. 344 00:22:18.840 --> 00:22:22.680 And I think pushing that image, that gives men permission to 345 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:26.640 deal out, you know, because they can revert to this, hey, I'm not 346 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.360 going to tell you, I'm a typical bloke. So I'm not going to engage with 347 00:22:30.760 --> 00:22:34.520 this for the same reason that I can't make a shepherd's pie without 348 00:22:34.600 --> 00:22:38.360 screwing the whole thing up or needing a tremendous fanfare to 349 00:22:38.360 --> 00:22:42.120 accompany it because they've. They've done this. It's a 350 00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:46.240 comfortable kind of vision. There was something in the news 351 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:50.180 recently complaining about Peppa Pig. And Daddy Pig, who 352 00:22:50.180 --> 00:22:54.100 is this well meaning, useless buffoon who, you 353 00:22:54.100 --> 00:22:57.940 know, gets everything wrong in a domestic sense. And you know what, it's 354 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:01.860 giving people permission. And I don't know that it. I 355 00:23:01.860 --> 00:23:05.740 sometimes talk about a thing called the Man Code, which, you know, 356 00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:09.860 has a few very simple tenets, which is project outward strength at 357 00:23:09.860 --> 00:23:13.620 all times, tell everyone you're fine and keep the lid nailed down 358 00:23:13.620 --> 00:23:17.190 tight shut on all the sort of clamour in your head. 359 00:23:17.510 --> 00:23:21.190 And the reason that we still do this is, firstly, 360 00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:25.030 it's really, really easy. It's not difficult to follow 361 00:23:25.030 --> 00:23:27.910 the Man Code and it certainly isn't difficult to, 362 00:23:29.510 --> 00:23:33.470 you know, follow that popular trope of being a guy who doesn't talk 363 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:36.710 about stuff and, you know, doesn't deal well 364 00:23:36.710 --> 00:23:40.590 emotionally. And it's been tremendously successful 365 00:23:40.590 --> 00:23:44.200 in the past. You look at some of the history's great men. 366 00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:48.120 They were, you know, often appear outwardly as very 367 00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:52.040 emotionally closed off people. History now tells us that a lot of them 368 00:23:52.040 --> 00:23:56.040 did have some sort of significant mental health problems going on. And I 369 00:23:56.040 --> 00:23:59.840 think, you know, some of the sort of heroes of the Edwardian and Victorian 370 00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:03.480 era, if they were sort of more closely examined now, we'd find that they had, 371 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.320 you know, a whole host of sort of mental illness issues 372 00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:11.790 going on. But the Man Code allowed them to navigate that and 373 00:24:11.790 --> 00:24:15.710 achieve greatness at the same time. And this is what we remember them 374 00:24:15.710 --> 00:24:19.550 for and this is, you know, in a way, why we use them. 375 00:24:19.950 --> 00:24:23.910 But it always makes me think when I read about these guys, and 376 00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:27.750 they do, because they love sort of true life adventure storeys, what else they could 377 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:31.430 have achieved if they weren't dealing with all the sort of the 378 00:24:31.430 --> 00:24:35.430 demons in their head, if they weren't constantly suppressing those, if 379 00:24:35.430 --> 00:24:38.750 they had an outlet for them, if they were able to, you know, achieve a 380 00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:42.750 little bit more emotional coherence, sometimes called vulnerability. 381 00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:47.350 Not a word I'm particularly fond of, but there it is. And this is 382 00:24:47.350 --> 00:24:51.030 something that I like to, you know, present to, to some of the guys I 383 00:24:51.030 --> 00:24:54.870 work with now. You know, as they're thinking about what you can achieve or what 384 00:24:54.870 --> 00:24:58.830 your employees can achieve. You know, if they're not dealing with this, 385 00:24:58.830 --> 00:25:01.670 you know, a lot of them are already doing pretty well. You've got to wonder 386 00:25:01.670 --> 00:25:04.990 how much better, how much better they could do. So, yeah, I think that's 387 00:25:05.710 --> 00:25:09.510 part of. Your Bushcraft, your outdoors activities. Is this where you take people 388 00:25:09.510 --> 00:25:13.310 out into the. Into the wild and return them a bit to 389 00:25:13.310 --> 00:25:16.853 nature? It's not really the wild, Jo. I mean, we're 390 00:25:16.853 --> 00:25:20.558 Extremely blessed here in Scotland in that, you know, our 391 00:25:20.558 --> 00:25:23.954 biggest cities are ringed at the very closest edge by 392 00:25:23.954 --> 00:25:27.349 beautiful scenery countryside, woodland hills. So 393 00:25:27.349 --> 00:25:31.208 escaping from the city is pretty easy. And finding places to 394 00:25:31.208 --> 00:25:35.066 bring a group together that doesn't involve a lot of travel, 395 00:25:35.066 --> 00:25:38.849 it's quite easy here. We also have some unique access to the 396 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:42.631 outdoors, rights of access to the outdoors that make these 397 00:25:42.631 --> 00:25:46.490 things easier. The sort of focal point is a fire with a kettle 398 00:25:46.490 --> 00:25:50.425 hanging over it and a group of people sitting in a circle round 399 00:25:50.425 --> 00:25:53.975 it. And that is a meeting format. That's roughly, if you 400 00:25:53.975 --> 00:25:57.810 subtract the kettle, roughly 400. That's when it's now 401 00:25:57.810 --> 00:26:01.370