Joanne Lockwood: Foreign.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and societal transformation.
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Joanne Lockwood: not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 207 with the title
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Through Play. And I have the absolute honour and
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to welcome Nikie Forster. Nikie is a learning and development
Joanne Lockwood: specialist who challenges traditional training by designing
Joanne Lockwood: playful, inclusive experiences that help everyone feel they truly
Joanne Lockwood: belong. When I asked Nikki to describe her superpower, she
Joanne Lockwood: said it is her ability to turn almost anything into
Joanne Lockwood: an engaging, inclusive learning experience that meets people
Joanne Lockwood: exactly where they are. Hello, Nikie, welcome to the show.
Nikie Forster: Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me along today. Pleasure. We met
Joanne Lockwood: probably back in October, September, at a local
Joanne Lockwood: business coaching workshop series that was being
Joanne Lockwood: run in the local council offices. Right, something like that. We did,
Nikie Forster: we did, yes. I think you were part of Cohort 2. I came
Nikie Forster: along as part of Cohort 1 and the lady who was running asked me to
Nikie Forster: come back and do a specific piece around
Nikie Forster: managing people. And I racked my
Nikie Forster: brains as to how to do that, where it wasn't just, you know,
Nikie Forster: words on a PowerPoint slide. And I think we engaged over that little
Nikie Forster: session. Yeah, we did. And my wife Marie was with us as well and
Joanne Lockwood: she's not normally one to participate in these kind of stand up
Joanne Lockwood: activity games. She's always one of the back. She's the introvert. Don't make me stand
Joanne Lockwood: up, don't make me clap. Don't make me put a hand in the room. And
Joanne Lockwood: even she engaged and I was really impressed. We built little Lego models,
Joanne Lockwood: didn't we? And you gave us a box of LEGO each. We played with it,
Joanne Lockwood: little cards to look at and design our cars. I think it was,
Joanne Lockwood: and I think the way you did it was you built it up really, really
Joanne Lockwood: slowly that we bought into the concept. So we had, we were invested in
Joanne Lockwood: the vehicle. And then you said, right now, I want you to stand up and
Joanne Lockwood: put the vehicle on the mat, where it represents where you're at
Joanne Lockwood: right now. And of course, you've already got the investment in. It's a very small
Joanne Lockwood: gap to go from vehicle to in front of you to vehicle, the mat, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Watching people,
Nikie Forster: you know, kind of also different in what people made and what people's
Nikie Forster: ideas are. And I think that that's. That's part of what draws me to that
Nikie Forster: style of facilitation is allowing people very much to be
Nikie Forster: themselves and not just be the loudest person in the room that
Nikie Forster: wants, you know, is able to express themselves there. And then
Nikie Forster: it's about everybody being able to think first and then
Nikie Forster: participate. I'm guessing that you
Joanne Lockwood: bespoked the whole. The
Joanne Lockwood: game, if you like the game. The cards. You had a deck of cards which
Joanne Lockwood: we handed out. You had a mat, which I'm presuming you've
Joanne Lockwood: designed or at least assembled from some templates and things. But
Joanne Lockwood: yeah.
Nikie Forster: It'S kind of a bit of a mishmash of things. So very much. Some of
Nikie Forster: the tools that I were using were ones that I've made specifically to use in
Nikie Forster: a training arena. But some of the other elements, like using
Nikie Forster: the Lego part of that is just learning and development, but it also comes
Nikie Forster: from something called LEGO Serious Play, which I do a lot of as well,
Nikie Forster: uses LEGO in a slightly different way to how we were using it, but
Nikie Forster: ultimately is about that interaction and getting people
Nikie Forster: to create things for themselves. Over Covid, I did a few
Joanne Lockwood: Minecraft events. So again, I guess digging and building in
Joanne Lockwood: Minecraft and having a little project team and a project leader to decide how you're
Joanne Lockwood: going to excavate or build or construct. Yeah. And achieve
Joanne Lockwood: goals. I guess in Minecraft it's just a digital version of LEGO Play. Is it
Nikie Forster: kind of using LEGO in. So I. I think I
Nikie Forster: probably just need to distinguish because if you've got anybody in your audience who knows
Nikie Forster: about LEGO Serious Play and I start talking about LEGO, as in we're just
Nikie Forster: building stuff that. That you'll probably get some emails. So because they. They're
Nikie Forster: quite distinct. So I use it in two different ways. In the way that you're
Nikie Forster: talking about and the way in which we used it, it was very much using
Nikie Forster: LEGO as a tool to a
Nikie Forster: discussion. And so that. That's how we used it.
Nikie Forster: LEGO Serious Play is an actual methodology
Nikie Forster: created by the LEGO group back in the 90s, along with two
Nikie Forster: professors and they created something that has a
Nikie Forster: specific methodology where everybody builds their answer,
Nikie Forster: shares their answer, so everybody in the room gets to hear it. And
Nikie Forster: then you can bring all those models together to create a much bigger
Nikie Forster: narrative, a much bigger model. And so it has very many different
Nikie Forster: layers to. So depending on what I'm doing will depend on
Nikie Forster: which of those is the best option to use.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm assuming that LEGO Serious Play then, is a trademarked
Joanne Lockwood: programme and you have to be a certified or part of the
Joanne Lockwood: LEGO clan to be able to use it, Is that right? Oh, okay, so
Nikie Forster: this is where it gets interesting. So the first part of your question. Yes,
Nikie Forster: it is trademarked. You have to have your little R's in
Nikie Forster: circles. Are they. What are they called? Registered trademark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if
Nikie Forster: you're writing LEGO Series Play down, it has to be down that. And. And it
Nikie Forster: is associated with lego. However, they did a really
Nikie Forster: interesting thing. So they started off with training people to
Nikie Forster: use it and running certification courses. So because they. It
Nikie Forster: was originally designed for in house, because if you think in the
Nikie Forster: mid-90s, you're just talking about mine, Minecraft there in the
Nikie Forster: mid-90s, that's a lot of. When the kind of electrical games came
Nikie Forster: out, a lot of gaming and stuff was becoming big and LEGO was at that
Nikie Forster: stage where they're going, oh, okay, how do we keep up with this? You,
Nikie Forster: we're just little traditional blocks and things. What do we do? So that's
Nikie Forster: when they collaborated with these two professors to go,
Nikie Forster: surely there's something that we can use in house, that we can spark ideas
Nikie Forster: and conversations with our teams in order to work out how, what our future is,
Nikie Forster: the strategy. So that's where LEGO Serious Play started. Then
Nikie Forster: they realised actually other businesses could benefit from this, so they started training people.
Nikie Forster: But in 2010, they made the decision to
Nikie Forster: make it what's called open source, which was basically,
Nikie Forster: here's all the details, here's how you run it. As long as you know how
Nikie Forster: to facilitate, go ahead and do it. And so you
Nikie Forster: don't have to be certified. And it's one of my big bugbears, I
Nikie Forster: can, I can rant about this for quite a while, but I won't. But when
Nikie Forster: I see people offering LEGO Serious Play certification courses,
Nikie Forster: that's fine. If you're not in learning development, you're not a trainer,
Nikie Forster: you're not a facilitator and you're learning from scratch, I think it's a good
Nikie Forster: route to go down. But you. What they're really
Nikie Forster: teaching you is how to facilitate and using Lego Serious Play
Nikie Forster: as the underlying method for it. So I run courses
Nikie Forster: for experienced trainers, facilitators, coaches and educators about how
Nikie Forster: to use Lego Serious Play. And it's a one day event, you don't have to
Nikie Forster: be certified to do it. So I did go off on a rant there. Sorry.
Joanne Lockwood: No, that's fine. It's education. I've learned something that's good.
Nikie Forster: But I think ultimately it should always be about the learner and not
Nikie Forster: about the, you know, whose model it's
Nikie Forster: attributed to or the theory. Unless you are using that
Nikie Forster: throughout an entire programme, it should always be about, well, what's useful for the
Nikie Forster: learner. How am I going to get the learners to feel comfortable in
Nikie Forster: the space and open up and engage? And if that means using
Nikie Forster: Lego, then fantastic, let's do that. And
Joanne Lockwood: drilling down into that. It's about each individual learner, not the
Joanne Lockwood: cohort of learners. Because we've got to be multimodal, we've got to think about
Joanne Lockwood: each learning style, each attention style, each reward.
Nikie Forster: Yes. Pathway, all these kind of things. And too often
Joanne Lockwood: it's a one size fits all. Yeah, I remember
Nikie Forster: a little while ago, but I do remember it quite vividly. I went along
Nikie Forster: to a training event and I was writing my
Nikie Forster: notes. I'm not a copious note taker, but I do like making just notes
Nikie Forster: or scribbling down things or doodling or something like that. And I was
Nikie Forster: actually told by the trainer to stop writing.
Nikie Forster: Yeah. And it took me a moment to kind
Nikie Forster: of. To kind of what? No, stop writing. You have to listen. That's
Nikie Forster: how you're going to learn. You have to listen. Well, you're not much of a
Nikie Forster: trainer if that's what you think. And I didn't say
Nikie Forster: that out loud, that was in my head, but it took me a while and
Nikie Forster: I'm not normally a person that's lost words. But the idea that
Nikie Forster: everybody has to learn in the same way.
Nikie Forster: I think anybody who's worth their salt as a, you know, in learning and development
Nikie Forster: understands that. However, not everybody does. Some people are very
Nikie Forster: focused on, well, this is how I learn, so that's how I'm going to train
Nikie Forster: or teach. So, yes, I think it's really important to understand
Nikie Forster: and not just to design in that way. So have a
Nikie Forster: workshop where all of that is incorporated. But to actually
Nikie Forster: be very much in the moment of this isn't landing, what
Nikie Forster: do I do differently? Or this is going great, let's do it a bit more.
Nikie Forster: But that person over there isn't Quite engaging. So,
Nikie Forster: you know, it's very much around that for me it's being
Nikie Forster: in the moment and making sure that everybody's getting what they need or want. I
Nikie Forster: do quite a lot of stuff pre workshop, actually, when I'm running a programme
Nikie Forster: or working with clients in order to understand who's turning up and what
Nikie Forster: their needs are. And I think that's really
Nikie Forster: helpful, not just from my perspective of understanding who's coming into
Nikie Forster: the room, but I tend to send a form with
Nikie Forster: a video attached to it. So they get to see me before they turn up,
Nikie Forster: they get to understand a little bit about how the programme's gonna run. Cause I'm
Nikie Forster: quite informal in the way that I do things. But everything has a
Nikie Forster: purpose. So I think if people understand all of that upfront, they
Nikie Forster: can make better judgments when they turn up about how they
Nikie Forster: might want to interact. I remember seeing in the old
Joanne Lockwood: days, yes, Steve Jobs at Apple and he was very
Joanne Lockwood: famous for his launch and the way he stagecraft everything.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not sure the exact point I'm trying to make here, but
Joanne Lockwood: I think what he did was he used to do his presentations inside 8
Joanne Lockwood: minute or 10 minute segments. So we would talk for a while,
Joanne Lockwood: then he flipped to a video and the video would flip to a live
Joanne Lockwood: demonstration and then that would flip to involving somebody else
Joanne Lockwood: come in and they talk about it and have a discussion and then
Joanne Lockwood: he'd move on to the next thing. So I've always taken that when I'm delivering
Joanne Lockwood: training, delivering anything, I want to go through this cycle where I say, here's
Joanne Lockwood: my 20 minute segment, I'm going to talk, I'm going to video, we're going to
Joanne Lockwood: discuss, we're going to write something down and then we're going to do some Q
Joanne Lockwood: and A and then we're going to rinse and repeat, do the next topic. Yeah,
Nikie Forster: it is keeping fluid, isn't it? Yeah. And now I've got
Joanne Lockwood: a puppy. I've learned even more about those kind of techniques where you're constantly trying
Joanne Lockwood: to feed the brain and move from one state to another
Joanne Lockwood: state before the person shows the teeth and goes out of grounding it. Yes.
Nikie Forster: Yeah, it is, it's about. I think
Nikie Forster: the kind of. The real depth of it is psychology rather than anything else. It's
Nikie Forster: about understanding people. And I think a lot of what I do, regardless of the
Nikie Forster: topic that I'm training, it nearly always, always comes
Nikie Forster: comes back to understanding yourself and understanding others.
Nikie Forster: Everything else on top of that is just extra
Nikie Forster: information that you can sprinkle over and go. And I'm going to use that in
Nikie Forster: order to do this. But I think self awareness,
Nikie Forster: whether that's innate or whether you have to learn it is the first
Nikie Forster: step and then understanding others and how you react
Nikie Forster: to them is the bit that will then get you those, that kind of better
Nikie Forster: interaction. Those are what you just said. There are the key
Joanne Lockwood: tenets of emotional intelligence, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think, I think you can learn it. I would say myself that I
Joanne Lockwood: have learned self awareness, self management,
Joanne Lockwood: building relationships, all the attendance of those emotional intelligence there
Joanne Lockwood: over, over the last 10, 15 years. Before that I was, I was
Joanne Lockwood: unaware of who I was, how I showed up
Joanne Lockwood: and I was unaware what if that mattered or not.
Joanne Lockwood: So I think yes you can, I think you put people in a space where
Joanne Lockwood: they go, the light bulb comes on and go, ah, okay. The world is much
Joanne Lockwood: simpler if I understand who I am. Yes.
Nikie Forster: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting to think about how
Nikie Forster: we get to that point of self awareness and I do think some people
Nikie Forster: have more insight than others naturally. But
Nikie Forster: like we just said, I think it can also be learned and I
Nikie Forster: think there are aspects that you can do yourself
Nikie Forster: in order to learn that, but there are aspects that other people can help you
Nikie Forster: with as well. So yeah, simple things. Like years and
Nikie Forster: years ago I did my first personality profiling. Yeah. You know,
Nikie Forster: thing where you find out what your colours are and the stuff and then what
Nikie Forster: that means and then whether you like the results of that or not.
Nikie Forster: So that I think was probably my first journey into it being. But I had
Nikie Forster: some very good managers when I was younger, particularly starting
Nikie Forster: out in my training career, who were more coaching
Nikie Forster: managers which, which worked well for me
Nikie Forster: to a certain level. Although I'm quite a pragmatist at heart. So
Nikie Forster: I like to be involved and I like, like for me to have an opinion.
Nikie Forster: But ultimately I need to know why. Why are you asking me that? Why, why
Nikie Forster: am I doing it this way? And so the managers
Nikie Forster: that I had at the time understood that about me
Nikie Forster: and was able to help me find my own way,
Nikie Forster: encourage me to be the me that I am now. In
Nikie Forster: terms of. Yes, I do turn up with suitcases full of
Nikie Forster: props in my training sessions and I always have to a certain extent. But I
Nikie Forster: think in those early years when I was, my world of
Nikie Forster: training experience was more about sitting in a room and seeing people
Nikie Forster: talk at, you know, it was more of a presentation or a lecture. And
Nikie Forster: so that was my experience of being content. And you're going to have it.
Nikie Forster: Yes, exactly. And I'm the expert on it and you know,
Nikie Forster: you have to ask me the questions. So when, when you have an experience
Nikie Forster: that you then think, well, I don't want to do it that way. And is
Nikie Forster: that okay? You need that encouragement. You need people to go, yes, it's all
Nikie Forster: right to do things differently. And I was very lucky that I had that. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I tend to always assume that somebody in the room probably knows more than I
Joanne Lockwood: do about the topic. So I never want to consider myself the expert.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just there. I often say when I start talking is that I'm not here
Joanne Lockwood: to tell you what to say, think or do. I'm just asking you to think
Joanne Lockwood: about what you want to say, think or do. And I
Joanne Lockwood: obviously, I always have this, the acronym WIFM W I,
Joanne Lockwood: I F.M. you know, what's in it for me? So I'm always thinking about why
Joanne Lockwood: the person's in the room, what they're hoping to get out of it. I really
Joanne Lockwood: want to hear why they're here, why they're there and what they're expecting. Because I.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, if I'm talking about this and everybody else and everyone wants to
Joanne Lockwood: talk about that, then I need to adjust. I can't force them to my side
Joanne Lockwood: of the fence. I need to meet them. Meet them where they are. Absolutely,
Nikie Forster: absolutely. And I think it's very much when you treat people like
Nikie Forster: adults, but you're telling them that you're treating them like adults,
Nikie Forster: I think you get a much better response. Again,
Nikie Forster: kind of having, I'm not a great delegate in workshops because
Nikie Forster: I sit there and I go, why are you doing that? I just want to
Nikie Forster: redesign everything. But one of the things that I really struggle
Nikie Forster: with is when people open up a workshop and they say things
Nikie Forster: like, right, everybody has to switch their phone off. Or even worse,
Nikie Forster: here's a bowl in the middle of the table. Everybody put your phones in there
Nikie Forster: because I don't want you to be distracted or that's just treating them like a
Nikie Forster: 5 year old. Not that 5 year olds have phones. Well, they might do, but
Nikie Forster: you know, it's like everybody's busy. If you need to use your phone, you use
Nikie Forster: your phone. But just be considerate. I don't even mention phones. I
Nikie Forster: have to be honest because I think setting the
Nikie Forster: expectation for people about we're all adults in the room.
Nikie Forster: Nobody is, you know, saying you have to be here.
Nikie Forster: Nobody is saying they have to participate. But when you do, you do it with
Nikie Forster: consideration for others. And we do it with respect and things like that. Yeah.
Nikie Forster: So I think setting expectations is important, but doing it as an
Nikie Forster: adult is even more. Yeah, I tend to try and start with an expectations
Joanne Lockwood: contract, if you like, where we are part of whiteboard. So what do we
Joanne Lockwood: expect of each other today? Being present? Be attentive.
Nikie Forster: Yeah. Create space for learning, don't jump to conclusions,
Joanne Lockwood: allow people to have their opinions or those sort of things. So I would try
Joanne Lockwood: and do it that way. And that's why I say be present is kind of
Joanne Lockwood: my way of saying, if you could turn your notifications off, silence the
Joanne Lockwood: thing. But I also, look, if you need to make a phone call, you're busy,
Joanne Lockwood: you want to make a phone call, please step out, go and go to the
Joanne Lockwood: toilet when you want, use the phone when you want, but do it outside the
Joanne Lockwood: room. I ran a workshop a little while ago, probably a
Joanne Lockwood: year ago, and I think it was the chief people officer was
Joanne Lockwood: in the room and they constantly were sat there on the laptop going.
Joanne Lockwood: And then their phone was beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. All the other
Joanne Lockwood: delegates were going, this person's supposed to be setting an example
Joanne Lockwood: here. And I felt really, really uncomfortable because I could feel everybody else was
Joanne Lockwood: uncomfortable and I didn't want to sort of say, or you stop it.
Joanne Lockwood: But I was. And they were looking to me as a kind of, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: because you're one of your training, you're the leader, aren't you, to take responsibility and
Joanne Lockwood: do something. And I, I wasn't sure how to do it without being
Joanne Lockwood: kind of authoritarian. I didn't want to be authoritarian. I, what
Joanne Lockwood: I, I think what I let happen was I let the room
Joanne Lockwood: decide it was unacceptable. Yes. Without me saying it. And
Joanne Lockwood: I, and this person, they were just oblivious. Oblivious to the impact they were having
Joanne Lockwood: on everybody else. And I just. It's coming back to that self
Nikie Forster: awareness bit again, isn't it? I think in the past when I've had that,
Nikie Forster: not with laptops and stuff, but when somebody's been like on the phone and
Nikie Forster: stuff, depending on the room, sometimes I have just
Nikie Forster: said, would you like us to wait until you finished? You know, if it's been
Nikie Forster: going on a while and they go, oh, no, I'm really sorry, or actually, yeah,
Nikie Forster: no, this is really important. Okay, do you want to take it outside then so
Nikie Forster: that we can focus on what we're doing rather than on what you're doing? Or
Nikie Forster: sometimes if they're repeat offenders, then I will walk around
Nikie Forster: the room and just stand at the back of them while I'm still
Nikie Forster: talking. So everybody eyes is on me. But ultimately that person
Nikie Forster: realises that that's a good technique and they realise then. But I'm
Nikie Forster: quite happy to. I'm pausing here because I was gonna say I'm quite happy to
Nikie Forster: call people out on it, but this is something that you taught me in
Nikie Forster: one of your posts quite a while ago. Now. I remember seeing this and it's
Nikie Forster: always stuck with me. You did a post about not
Nikie Forster: people out, but calling people in. And that's
Nikie Forster: always stuck with me. And I really like that. And so I, I
Nikie Forster: try and do that more and more. So I don't try and embarrass people and
Nikie Forster: I don't try and make them feel as though they should know that what they're
Nikie Forster: doing is either wrong or unacceptable because they might not know, they might not
Nikie Forster: be self aware, there might be other things going on for them. So I try
Nikie Forster: and do it in a way that, you know, allows them to feel as though
Nikie Forster: they're not being told off and just making them feel more self aware that
Nikie Forster: actually what you're doing is distracting or what you've said isn't appropriate
Nikie Forster: or, you know. But allowing them to learn from it
Nikie Forster: rather than feel defensive. Yeah, that's why I try and
Joanne Lockwood: do the contract at the beginning. It's. We all agree that we need
Joanne Lockwood: to be present, we all agree that it's a good idea not to
Joanne Lockwood: be distracted with other things. And we all agree that if you want to use
Joanne Lockwood: the phone, you want to go to the toilet, you want to do anything else,
Joanne Lockwood: you feel free. This is not primary school where you have to put your hand
Joanne Lockwood: up and ask for permission. You just stand up and walk out and it's absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: fine. Yeah, but the words that you use there to
Nikie Forster: describe that is the words that I use as well. It's about expectations. So what
Nikie Forster: expectations do you have of what we're doing? Of me? Of your peers,
Nikie Forster: rather than using the term ground rules. Because again, as
Nikie Forster: soon as you start using that rules, we're limiting
Nikie Forster: people. Yeah, again. But the group should decide. It shouldn't be me
Joanne Lockwood: dictating, it should be the group. I mean, if the group said, look, actually we're
Joanne Lockwood: all trying to close a deal at the moment and we're all on standby and
Joanne Lockwood: if the deal happens, we've all got to jump up and go and do something.
Joanne Lockwood: I go, okay, it's going to be a rough ride, but I'll factor that into
Joanne Lockwood: my meeting plan or my lesson plan and I'll meet You where you're at
Joanne Lockwood: and you're paying me to be here, you want me to do a
Joanne Lockwood: great job. As long as you take away those key things, I may skip half
Joanne Lockwood: the content because you're not listening and go straight to some action stuff
Joanne Lockwood: where you have to be engaged because you're doing things. Yeah,
Nikie Forster: yeah. But again, you have expectations, setting. Yeah. I've chaired so many
Joanne Lockwood: board meetings where board members sat around the table with their
Joanne Lockwood: phones and their laptop and someone's giving a report and everyone's doing this on
Joanne Lockwood: their own laptop, their eyes are down and then. And then when it's their turn
Joanne Lockwood: for report, they give their report and everybody else's eye down. Do you think
Joanne Lockwood: half of you haven't paid attention to anything that's going on? And you look at
Joanne Lockwood: questions at the end or people disagreeing with the minutes, you think,
Joanne Lockwood: were you not there at the time? No, you weren't actually. I remember you were
Joanne Lockwood: sitting there writing your own personal emails while you were, while you were around the
Joanne Lockwood: table. And it is frustrating, that respect thing. If you want people
Joanne Lockwood: to listen to you, you need to give people their
Joanne Lockwood: space. And that's that self regulation, that emotional intelligence of understand the
Joanne Lockwood: room, isn't it? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's. That's one of
Nikie Forster: the reasons why I gravitated towards the Lego series play that
Nikie Forster: we spoke about earlier, was because as well as everybody having
Nikie Forster: to build their own models in a proper structured session, I would then go around
Nikie Forster: every single person and ask them to explain their model,
Nikie Forster: how they see it, so there's no wrong answers. But also, then I get
Nikie Forster: the rest of the group to ask questions of the model,
Nikie Forster: not, not the whys, you know, why have you done that? But I see you've
Nikie Forster: got a pink flower on the edge of your model there. What does that represent?
Nikie Forster: So in order to ask those questions, you have to have
Nikie Forster: listened to what the person says. Otherwise you've
Nikie Forster: asking a question about something that's already been said and it
Nikie Forster: does. And it drives deeper listening, but it also
Nikie Forster: drives a deeper discussion. Because some people, even when they've built something,
Nikie Forster: will go, well, I built this and it represents how
Nikie Forster: I'm motivated on, you know, do my work. And that's all they'll
Nikie Forster: say. Some people will go into it very elaborately, but when you start asking
Nikie Forster: questions about, well, what. Tell me about that pink flower on the edge of the
Nikie Forster: model. What does that represent? And even if they say, oh, I don't know,
Nikie Forster: I just like the flower, you then follow it up with well, now that I've
Nikie Forster: pointed out, what might it represent? And they can give you an answer, and they
Nikie Forster: always do. They'll say something like, well, actually, that's probably
Nikie Forster: what I'm hoping it be like. But it's right on the edge. It
Nikie Forster: feels as though it's slightly out of reach. And you get these real deep
Nikie Forster: insights into things. And the level of
Nikie Forster: listening and contribution really shifts
Nikie Forster: when you do something like that, rather than the standard, has
Nikie Forster: anybody got any questions? And everybody
Nikie Forster: goes, okay, how close to lunchtime is it? I might not answer because
Nikie Forster: it means you're going to be here for another five minutes and I'd rather go
Nikie Forster: now. So, yeah, it's interesting how you can shift the conversations along.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. One of the things I liked about the exercise I did with you, with
Joanne Lockwood: my wife and others was that initial phase where
Joanne Lockwood: you're building and you're sharing a pile of Lego with somebody else.
Joanne Lockwood: You're interacting with the person next to you who you may not know is also
Joanne Lockwood: a very good bonding opportunity. And you're discussing and you've broken that
Joanne Lockwood: ice in your one to your left, one to your right,
Joanne Lockwood: and you, your three. And if there's another three, you overlap and it almost
Joanne Lockwood: like infects around the table. You start to have conversations. You're standing there
Joanne Lockwood: queuing up to put your model on the map, on the mat. And again
Joanne Lockwood: you're, oh, what's yours? And what's yours? Where are you putting your one? And it
Joanne Lockwood: again creates that. I'm going to use a puppy thing here. So when puppies meet,
Joanne Lockwood: all they want to do is sniff each other's bums and run around, around circles
Joanne Lockwood: for five minutes. That's that they want to bond and get to know each other.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think sometimes when we're. When we're engaging in workshops and learning and development,
Joanne Lockwood: we're not allowing people to do the puff stiff. We're not allowing people to get
Joanne Lockwood: to know each other and to. And get that human value. It's all me to
Joanne Lockwood: you, not us. And we. Absolutely.
Nikie Forster: But I think also there's an element of. So as a trainer
Nikie Forster: or facilitator, allowing people, you know, giving somebody an activity that allows them to
Nikie Forster: do that allows then people to go, okay, right. It's. I'm
Nikie Forster: allowed to talk, I'm allowed to interact. I think sometimes when you go into a
Nikie Forster: room, particularly if you don't know anybody else there and you're not quite sure
Nikie Forster: of the situation, then that can be hard, just to
Nikie Forster: strike up a conversation and go into small Talk and try
Nikie Forster: and engage and work out well who's who. And you know, it
Nikie Forster: can be very intimidating even in an in house
Nikie Forster: workshop where you know that there are gonna be people in the room that
Nikie Forster: you've worked with but you don't really know them and how's it gonna
Nikie Forster: work? And you know, you need something at the beginning that just
Nikie Forster: allows people to feel comfortable in just starting to talk.
Nikie Forster: I think as a very young trainer I expected
Nikie Forster: that to happen just naturally. All these people would show up and nobody
Nikie Forster: would talk and I would almost be like, have you all lost your voices?
Nikie Forster: And I look back at that now and think, how horrendous must that have been
Nikie Forster: to be that person turning up who was probably a bit anxious
Nikie Forster: and a bit worried about how it was going to work.
Nikie Forster: Just, you know, to sit there and well, no, I haven't lost my voice, but
Nikie Forster: I'm really, you know, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how
Nikie Forster: to interact with these people or I don't want to, I don't actually want to
Nikie Forster: be here, maybe, you know, all those things. So I think over
Nikie Forster: my 30 odd years of being a trainer, I've learned an awful lot. And I
Nikie Forster: do look back at those early years and think, oh, if only somebody had kind
Nikie Forster: of steered me in a better direction in how to open up
Nikie Forster: a workshop and make people feel more comfortable in that space.
Joanne Lockwood: I found that if you, if you pounce on people cold,
Joanne Lockwood: that makes people very nervous and very worried because everyone's sitting around the table going,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, gonna bounce on me and avoid eye contact. Or
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes I still do it and I know I shouldn't. Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: you start and go around the table. So everyone sort of think, oh, I've got
Joanne Lockwood: time to think, time to think what I'm saying. What am I gonna say? Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: and you've got to try and figure out who you start with because you're thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, I've got to find the person who I think is going to be gung
Joanne Lockwood: ho for this. I find the extrovert, start with you and work around.
Joanne Lockwood: But I've also found that if you ask people to introduce themselves to the person
Joanne Lockwood: next door first. Yeah. So they're used to speaking
Joanne Lockwood: out loud to somebody and then once they've broken their
Joanne Lockwood: dark, they've broken the ice on that, then they're happy to talk to the group
Joanne Lockwood: because they've already shift their voice has already been heard once. Yeah,
Nikie Forster: One of the activities that I use quite a lot because it works quite well.
Nikie Forster: And again it does link to Lego. I keep going back to Lego a lot.
Nikie Forster: I have a whole tub of deconstructed
Nikie Forster: minifigures. Right. Okay. Lots of accessories. And I
Nikie Forster: basically get people to build their own minifigure that represents
Nikie Forster: themselves as and whatever the topic is. So it's usually a leader or
Nikie Forster: a manager, because that's mainly what I deal with. Fade of the lightsaber or something.
Nikie Forster: Well, actually, some people do, you know, but again, it's asking them, how
Nikie Forster: does that represent you? And then depending on the size of the group, everybody
Nikie Forster: introduces themselves to everybody or they get into small groups and they
Nikie Forster: introduce themselves. But it's about the representation. So you know that they might well have
Nikie Forster: chosen something that looks like Darth Vader with a lightsaber. When you say to them,
Nikie Forster: because how does that represent you as a leader? Then they have to
Nikie Forster: think a little bit more. Cheque people.
Nikie Forster: Yeah, I have a very commanding style of leadership. Okay, let's see how that plays
Nikie Forster: out. When we talk about leadership styles and stuff. Again, it gives something
Nikie Forster: for somebody to do before they then start to talk
Nikie Forster: and they've got a prop there to be able to talk about, so
Nikie Forster: it feels a bit safer rather than just to say, hi, my name's
Nikie Forster: Nikki. I think my leadership style is a bit like Darth
Nikie Forster: Vader. I don't think anybody would actually say that if they didn't have a minifigure,
Nikie Forster: you know, that they could construct into something with a lightsaber and
Nikie Forster: stuff. But, yeah, I think it's really interesting, those allowing
Nikie Forster: people to feel comfortable in that opening part.
Joanne Lockwood: So how did you start your career then? You weren't always this superstar
Joanne Lockwood: LEGO deep learning specialist. What was your
Joanne Lockwood: ambition when you left school, then? My ambition when I left school
Nikie Forster: was to be a Radio 1 disc jockey. I wanted to be
Nikie Forster: on the radio. And I did actually do a bit of time at
Nikie Forster: hospital radio, which I loved. And I also did a bit of time at local
Nikie Forster: radio. Radio Victory was the local radio station.
Nikie Forster: Yes. Yeah. Trout Road. Yeah. Off to the St.
Joanne Lockwood: Marie's Church. Yeah, it was. So I
Nikie Forster: did. I did several stints with what was called Victory fm.
Nikie Forster: It came back as yes, and again,
Nikie Forster: I loved it. It was a great experience and I did a lot of
Nikie Forster: presenting and producing and thought that could be a way
Nikie Forster: forward. It was a real. Really helped me learn how to talk to
Nikie Forster: people in terms of interviewing and
Nikie Forster: questioning. So I did something called Coffee on Victory fm. It was a
Nikie Forster: morning stint where I used to get people in and
Nikie Forster: interview them. So that was a big Learning curve for me. But I soon realised
Nikie Forster: if I wanted to do it professionally there's way more rules and regulations and the
Nikie Forster: certain things you're allowed to say and not allowed to say. And I kind of
Nikie Forster: went off the ball a bit because I don't do rules very well.
Nikie Forster: I. So I kind of deviated a bit. I didn't know what I wanted to
Nikie Forster: do after that. So I started working at B and Q. Very different from wanting
Nikie Forster: to be on the radio, but it was just a part time job. But actually
Nikie Forster: it was B and Q that allowed me to become a trainer in
Nikie Forster: a very weird and wonderful way because it was the, it was the knees I
Nikie Forster: was working on the decorative section and everybody was rag rolling their walls and
Nikie Forster: crackle glazing anything that wasn't nailed down. And we had all these paint effects
Nikie Forster: that came into the store and nobody knew how to use them. And my manager,
Nikie Forster: yeah, yeah, my manager at the time knowing that I used to do the
Nikie Forster: radio stuff, basically said, Nick, you know how to talk. Go and demonstrate this stuff
Nikie Forster: and get it sold. Okay. So I took myself off into a corner of the
Nikie Forster: store and I was, you know, kind of trying to work out how to use
Nikie Forster: it and then people would turn up randomly and ask me what I was doing.
Nikie Forster: And then that kind of evolved into me putting out some tannoy
Nikie Forster: announcements that I was going to do a demonstration. And then that escalated
Nikie Forster: into me doing way more demonstrations on things. And
Nikie Forster: I also became their interior designer for a while quite randomly.
Nikie Forster: But in true Nikki style, I didn't just want to be on the shop floor
Nikie Forster: doing interior design. I decided that I was going to put on some evening classes
Nikie Forster: for the customers to come in and do like a six week
Nikie Forster: course on all this interior design stuff. I didn't even know I was training
Nikie Forster: at that point. All I was doing was I didn't want to be on the
Nikie Forster: shop floor, I wanted to do something else.
Nikie Forster: And so the cafe, I was at Hedge End at the time when it just
Nikie Forster: opened, the B and Q there and they had a mezzanine floor with
Nikie Forster: a cafe on it which closed at 6. So from 6 till 8
Nikie Forster: every Thursday for about six weeks. I basically commandeered that and set
Nikie Forster: up wallpaper, trestle tables and had all this, all this
Nikie Forster: stuff going on. I had loads of people turn up little certificates at the end
Nikie Forster: of it. And it was through that that somebody saw me and say actually you'd
Nikie Forster: probably be quite good at doing induction workshops for us.
Nikie Forster: So that's when I really got involved in doing what I'd call official training.
Nikie Forster: I did induction workshops and became part of the the team at
Nikie Forster: BQ and then became a management development person and then eventually became
Nikie Forster: the regional training manager for the south, the little region that I was
Nikie Forster: in. So I learned most of my formal training with
Nikie Forster: BNQ in. It's what I'd call its heyday of learning and development
Nikie Forster: and then everything else since then is different companies and different ways of doing things
Nikie Forster: and just learning. Every time you have different
Nikie Forster: culture in the business or different people that want training to be
Nikie Forster: a slightly different way, but all the time the creative element has always
Nikie Forster: followed me just doing stuff that engages
Nikie Forster: people to do things rather than me just study in front of the room
Nikie Forster: telling people stuff. So, yeah, so that's how I got
Nikie Forster: into it. Wow. So
Joanne Lockwood: BNQ head office was. It used to be at Eastleigh, didn't it? At one time
Nikie Forster: it did, yes. Yeah. I didn't go there very often, but yeah, it was
Nikie Forster: just up the road. But I know from hearing other
Joanne Lockwood: storeys that BNQ are an excellent inclusive employer, that
Joanne Lockwood: they employ more people over the age of 60 than most. They're really
Joanne Lockwood: focused on developing people who are retire but useful.
Nikie Forster: Well, absolutely. Have a disability, employ lots of people with downs.
Joanne Lockwood: Lots of people with learning disabilities that they are a really inclusive employer.
Nikie Forster: Yeah. Certainly in the time that I was with them for 13 years and certainly
Nikie Forster: in the time that I was with them, I raved about bnq.
Nikie Forster: I really enjoyed their approach to
Nikie Forster: employment and allowing people to do
Nikie Forster: to better themselves, but also in a way that worked for them.
Nikie Forster: It wasn't, you know, a hard line of this is how it's done. Have
Joanne Lockwood: you noticed a generational shift in how people want to
Joanne Lockwood: engage in training? I mean, we hear that Gen Z, Gen
Joanne Lockwood: Alpha, even younger millennials are. They
Joanne Lockwood: want reward based. When we were talking about puppies earlier, you need to keep feeding
Joanne Lockwood: them traits. You know, people talk about gamifying and stimulating the brain
Joanne Lockwood: chemicals to get people to be hyper and pumped up or is do
Joanne Lockwood: traditional training methods still work for the younger generation?
Nikie Forster: It's an interesting one and I think I might struggle to answer that because
Nikie Forster: I think what I've always done is hits the dopamine
Nikie Forster: because I've always had activities that get people
Nikie Forster: to do the thing and get people to explore it and design it in a
Nikie Forster: way that is quite short sections before we move on.
Nikie Forster: But I do think I've got a son who's 14 and I do recognise with
Nikie Forster: him that the shorter, more
Nikie Forster: interactive stuff will definitely sit better than you know any long
Nikie Forster: form of learning. He talks about his teachers and the ones that
Nikie Forster: he likes the best are the ones that will engage in conversation, will set
Nikie Forster: activities for them to do, rather than the kind of the
Nikie Forster: drawn out side of things. So I noticed my speech has slowed down a
Nikie Forster: bit because I'm trying to think and I see a lot of different generations
Nikie Forster: in the work that I do. I mean, a lot of the stuff I do
Nikie Forster: is around management and leadership, so it tends to be
Nikie Forster: probably mid-30s, upwards for most companies when
Nikie Forster: I get involved in that. But I do a lot of stepping into
Nikie Forster: leadership as well. And you tend to get younger generations
Nikie Forster: in that. I do a lot of work with the NHS around leadership as
Nikie Forster: mindset rather than leadership as a title.
Nikie Forster: And I think that sometimes I see them turn up
Nikie Forster: almost like I've got a full day of doing this, because they just used
Nikie Forster: to being on their feet and doing stuff and things, but usually by the end
Nikie Forster: of it, I've got a good thumbs up. And I think it's about engagement. I
Nikie Forster: think it's always just been about treating people as they want to be treated
Nikie Forster: regardless of age. The Platinum Rule people often. Well,
Nikie Forster: exactly. People forget that they always go for the Golden Rule. Treat people as you
Joanne Lockwood: want to be treated, but. But you've got to step into them. You got to
Joanne Lockwood: be person centric. Yeah, yeah. So if you've got a, you know, a
Nikie Forster: group of people who are more quieter, you know, more
Nikie Forster: reflective, then you need to give them more time to reflect. If you've got a
Nikie Forster: group of people that are all in very
Nikie Forster: loud and boisterous and wanting to, you know, kind of do everything at
Nikie Forster: 100 miles an hour, then you might need to speed things up. But it's also
Nikie Forster: looking for the outliers as well. You know, just because 90% of
Nikie Forster: the room is that you still need to make sure the 10 is
Nikie Forster: allowed to, you know, get what they want from it as well. And
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose I actually want to have fun myself, you know, facilitating a group.
Joanne Lockwood: I want to come out at the end of the day going, high five. I've
Joanne Lockwood: enjoyed that. Yeah, we've all bonded. I want you to think I've done a good
Joanne Lockwood: job. So it's. You're trying to keep it active for yourself because, you know, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know about you, but I've run the same course for an organisation I think
Joanne Lockwood: I ran. I think I deliver something like 40 versions of this session to
Joanne Lockwood: different cohorts over the course of six months. And by the end of it, you
Joanne Lockwood: think Have I told that gag before? Have I said that? Did I tell you
Joanne Lockwood: that or did I tell the last group that? And it's like by the end
Joanne Lockwood: of it, your brain is like mush. So you want to. You want to enjoy
Joanne Lockwood: it yourself, don't you? And I think the more you enjoy it, the more your
Joanne Lockwood: audience are going to enjoy it as well. Absolutely. And I think
Nikie Forster: the way that I kind of get over that is by allowing more
Nikie Forster: of the audience participation to come through,
Nikie Forster: because then every session is different, you know,
Nikie Forster: I think that there's always a structure to what you do, of course, and there's
Nikie Forster: always key points that you want to dig at home. But
Nikie Forster: when the audience is coming up with their answers and what happens next, and
Nikie Forster: you know, if we go off on a tangent, then fantastic, because that's what's needed
Nikie Forster: in the moment. But you're right at the end of it, you can usually, usually
Nikie Forster: tell if it's landed or not. I do.
Nikie Forster: I think for those people who are slightly more
Nikie Forster: extrovert and vocal in how they're getting that
Nikie Forster: they're learning, it's very easy to read those. I think it's
Nikie Forster: harder to read those that are slightly more reflective
Nikie Forster: or internally thinking. And
Nikie Forster: sometimes I do have to just verbally cheque how, you know,
Nikie Forster: how we're doing. Are we on the right level?
Nikie Forster: Because I do find those sometimes slightly harder to read.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it always surprised me because I tend to finish my sessions with a
Joanne Lockwood: tell me the one thing that is going to stick with you out of today's
Joanne Lockwood: session or the one thing you're going to implement right now and go around the
Joanne Lockwood: room and ask people to just verbalise that. And I think, wow, you picked up
Joanne Lockwood: on that. Wow, you picked up on that. And the diversity of things that
Joanne Lockwood: resonated with people. And it wasn't all the point I thought, thought they were going
Joanne Lockwood: to go for. They picked up something really random. I thought, wow, that was a
Joanne Lockwood: throwaway remark I made an hour ago. And that
Joanne Lockwood: really stuck with you. I thought, okay, that's brilliant. And so
Joanne Lockwood: again, it's recognising that everyone's going to take away something different and everyone hears something
Joanne Lockwood: different and everyone's situation is different, aren't they? So it's always
Joanne Lockwood: surprising me. And I think it's really good because by sharing to the room what
Joanne Lockwood: you're taking away, it gives other people those nuggets as well. So they're always
Joanne Lockwood: their self appear to be learning again, aren't they? Oh, I'm taking this away because
Joanne Lockwood: I'M taking that way. So it reinforces that without
Joanne Lockwood: me having to do a summary at the end. Yeah, yeah, no,
Nikie Forster: absolutely. And yet absolutely spot on with that. The throwaway comment that
Nikie Forster: wasn't in your design notes. You had no intention of saying it when you turned
Nikie Forster: up in the morning. And that's the thing that they're taking away. It always makes
Nikie Forster: me smile at that. But that's the beauty of listening to the room and picking
Nikie Forster: up on what other people are saying and having the
Nikie Forster: freedom as a trainer or facilitator to
Nikie Forster: interject, you know, and add storeys that. That make sense for that
Nikie Forster: moment, I think. You know, just sticking to your script.
Nikie Forster: Well, no, that. That's what we've got, so that's what we'll do. That,
Nikie Forster: you know, it doesn't help. So I think it's great. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a technique. I don't know if you heard this. It's called newsjacking. So what
Joanne Lockwood: you're doing is you're taking current affairs or something of the moment. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And bringing that into the session as an anecdote or an
Joanne Lockwood: example. Everyone's. Everyone's heard the news today or everyone's aware of what's going
Joanne Lockwood: on in the world. So if you. If you ignore the Middle east, you ignore
Joanne Lockwood: Russia, you ignore Iran, what's going on there at the moment, then you're
Joanne Lockwood: ignoring the world. If you can bring some of those examples in.
Nikie Forster: Yeah. Whatever that may be. And then it makes it completely off the moment.
Joanne Lockwood: Relevant. Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Nikie Forster: I think making it relevant is really important, I think, also
Nikie Forster: allowing people to work out for them in.
Nikie Forster: In that moment what's going on for them right now. Because quite often I get
Nikie Forster: people turn up to management or leadership programmes that aren't
Nikie Forster: really managers or leaders, that they're perspective managers
Nikie Forster: and leaders, you know, and it's kind of allowing people to say, okay, this
Nikie Forster: is what we're talking about now. Might not be something that you do for six
Nikie Forster: months down the line, but actually, everything that. Generally
Nikie Forster: speaking, everything that I talk about is just people skills. So it can translate
Nikie Forster: into talking with your peers, talking with suppliers, talking with stakeholders.
Nikie Forster: I can't remember why I'm going off on this tangent now, but.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm with you. I'm hanging in. I mean, I think what you're trying to say
Joanne Lockwood: there is. What you're trying to do is help people build a kit bag or
Joanne Lockwood: a toolkit. Yeah. Of various things. You know, if you're. And you're young,
Joanne Lockwood: your toolkit's quite Empty. But you get a couple of screwdrivers, you get a couple
Joanne Lockwood: of spanners and they think, oh, I need to, I need to do this. I
Joanne Lockwood: haven't got the right tool. I'll go and buy one of those from B and
Joanne Lockwood: Q. And then you put it in your bag. And then later, a year later,
Joanne Lockwood: you think, oh, I need that one again. And then you've got that repertoire, those
Joanne Lockwood: anecdotes, those sayings, those thought processes. Yeah.
Nikie Forster: And then being able to reflect back on, you know, oh, I went to that
Nikie Forster: workshop when we talked about that. Right, where's my notes about that? Or go and
Nikie Forster: speak to somebody that was at the workshop before. I think that was another
Nikie Forster: thing that I was going to bring up actually, as you were talking about at
Nikie Forster: the end of the day where you said about what's the one thing you're taking
Nikie Forster: away from today? So I'm a big fan of what I call
Nikie Forster: distracted reflection. Not
Nikie Forster: making full on action plans at the end of a workshop
Nikie Forster: because I don't believe that people have everything they need at the end of a
Nikie Forster: workshop in order to say, this is definitely what we're doing
Nikie Forster: going forwards. I think it's about giving people everything they need in a
Nikie Forster: workshop to start the brain and allow the brain to
Nikie Forster: digest it later down the line. Because when you say to people, right, come up
Nikie Forster: with a really good idea, idea, right now you are five minutes off you go.
Nikie Forster: You might get one or two, but it's very unlikely. You're more likely to
Nikie Forster: get that idea when you're walking the dog or, you know, when you're sat
Nikie Forster: reading something. Oh no, that. Oh yeah, I remember that. Well, that could work.
Nikie Forster: It's always kind of in the moment. And so I'm really keen when
Nikie Forster: I do my workshops to explain that to people that at the end of this
Nikie Forster: you're not going to have a set of three action points that you have to
Nikie Forster: take away and do by three months time and then reflect back
Nikie Forster: on them. Because the brain doesn't work in that way. The brain works in a
Nikie Forster: way that it needs time to mull it over and digest it and then work
Nikie Forster: out, well, what am I doing with it? And it also takes the pressure off
Nikie Forster: people as well, I think, to think that they have to do those
Nikie Forster: things, particularly if somebody's, you know, quite anxious about,
Nikie Forster: well, I've said I was going to do this and I really should be doing
Nikie Forster: it, but I'm not gonna have time to do it. Or actually the plan's all
Nikie Forster: changed. Yeah. And people have to oscillate between
Joanne Lockwood: operational and strategic thinking, don't they? It's like, what affects me
Joanne Lockwood: today, what's my burning bridge, what's biting me on the backside
Joanne Lockwood: right now, versus if I invested the time to change the
Joanne Lockwood: process or to enhance or to do things differently,
Joanne Lockwood: I would do it this way in future, but I can't because that's stopping me.
Joanne Lockwood: Which is why I always tend to ask, what's stopping you? What prevents you from
Joanne Lockwood: doing these things and what's the most important thing you want to do? And hopefully
Joanne Lockwood: in the room is generally a manager or a lead or a supervisor. They're hearing
Joanne Lockwood: people say, well, this is what's stopping me. And I go, of course, time, money,
Joanne Lockwood: all these kind of things are going to be stopping you. But what you should
Joanne Lockwood: be saying is nothing is the answer. What's stopping you? Nothing should be
Joanne Lockwood: the answer. So what do you need your manager to do to allow
Joanne Lockwood: it to be nothing? What are the blockers, is what I'm saying. And then let's
Joanne Lockwood: get those out on the table. Yeah, yeah. Because
Nikie Forster: again, as soon as one person says something, they go, oh, yeah, no. And it'll
Nikie Forster: spark a conversation for, for something else. And it allows them to
Nikie Forster: really delve down into what the challenge is rather than just the I don't
Nikie Forster: have time. Here's a tip for anyone listening. I
Joanne Lockwood: found that Chat GPT is really good at reading handwriting. So what I do
Joanne Lockwood: is in my workshops, I get people to write on Post it notes.
Joanne Lockwood: The four questions I ask is, what will I do? Will rather
Joanne Lockwood: than should will I do? What will we do? What's the priority and what's stopping
Joanne Lockwood: me? I get to write on the individual Post it notes and go around the
Joanne Lockwood: room and at the end of it, I take a photograph of all the Post
Joanne Lockwood: IT notes on my phone in ChatGPT and say, right, create a spreadsheet
Joanne Lockwood: with all the we's, I's, priorities and stoppings in a
Joanne Lockwood: spreadsheet. I then feed that again back into ChatGPT and
Joanne Lockwood: say, I want you to write me a delegate synthesis pack now with the 30,
Joanne Lockwood: 60, 90 day products with all the key actions and all the key points and
Joanne Lockwood: all the things that people were saying. Summarise back, which I then send to the
Joanne Lockwood: leader or the booker and say, this is what your cohort said,
Joanne Lockwood: this is what their actions are, this is what they want to do about it
Joanne Lockwood: and this is what's stopping them. I like that. Yeah. Do you want to have
Joanne Lockwood: a follow up in 30 days? No one ever says, yeah, let's have a chat
Joanne Lockwood: about this. They always take it. I've no idea if they read it, but it's
Joanne Lockwood: a very easy way. Now, I say just take photographs and chatgpt will
Joanne Lockwood: do a good enough job on the handwriting. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a
Joanne Lockwood: perfect. It's better than typing it in because I used to sit on the train,
Joanne Lockwood: train typing it in all the post it notes. Type it in. Two hour
Joanne Lockwood: train journey. I'll have them all done. But yeah, now, now photograph I take. I
Joanne Lockwood: put them all on a whiteboard. Take a photograph of the page, put one. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, yeah. I could, I could turn this around in 20 minutes. Now acts as
Nikie Forster: a really good reminder of the day as well, because any, even if they don't
Nikie Forster: do those things in 30, 60, 90 days, it will be a reflection of what
Nikie Forster: their intentions were. And I think that's really important to look
Nikie Forster: back on. And if someone does something with it,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't need any gratitude. It was their work. If the person that booked me
Joanne Lockwood: as a trainer or facilitate for the day, they take that away and go, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: that was useful. If they take one thing out of it, that's fine. And
Joanne Lockwood: they may never thank me, they may never come back to me, that's fine. At
Joanne Lockwood: least they got the document. I know I've done a good job.
Joanne Lockwood: You never know, they may refer you saying, oh, yeah, when Joe came in, she
Joanne Lockwood: goes, this is fantastic, that's what you want. And it's part of the sales pitch
Joanne Lockwood: as well. So you can sort of offer it as your value add, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Your bonus content, if you like. Right. So I
Joanne Lockwood: liked about your session, we got to keep the Lego. I was sort of thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, I built my little model here and I was thinking, oh, this is really.
Joanne Lockwood: He said, you can take your model away with you. Oh, what, really? Oh, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: I've got my model and it's that value.
Nikie Forster: Yeah, yeah. I do tend to do that with the
Nikie Forster: smaller bits of Lego. As I said, when people build their minifigures at
Nikie Forster: the beginning of a workshop, I always allow them to take it away because, again,
Nikie Forster: it acts as another little element in their brain to reflect back on what
Nikie Forster: the day was, what it represented for them. Sometimes I
Nikie Forster: bookend, so I get them to build their minifigure in the morning, they see
Nikie Forster: themselves as a leader and then at the end of the session get them
Nikie Forster: to add one accessory. Having been through the
Nikie Forster: workshop, that they now recognise about themselves as a leader or what they want to
Nikie Forster: be in the future or whatever it is that we're doing. So they rummage around
Nikie Forster: for another accessory and again they go around and talk about it. So then they
Nikie Forster: take it away and they end up putting it on their monitor or on the
Nikie Forster: desk, or even if they take it home and talk to the partner about it,
Nikie Forster: take a. Photograph, stick it on LinkedIn, tag you in, all that kind of stuff.
Nikie Forster: Absolutely, all that stuff. But it's just an extra reminder. It's an extra little
Nikie Forster: neuron in the brain that's connected somewhere that said, this is
Nikie Forster: what we did on this workshop and this is what it meant for me, and
Nikie Forster: that'll stick with them. It'll make it sticky for a lot longer. We
Joanne Lockwood: talked about inclusion and in the narrative we
Joanne Lockwood: also use the word belong. And all of these little techniques
Joanne Lockwood: draw you in. This place is for me, I belong here. Nikki's for
Joanne Lockwood: me. Yeah, this, this training's for me. It's. I've got something, I'm taking it away
Joanne Lockwood: and I, I feel that, as you say, the dopamine hits the brain, chemicals are
Joanne Lockwood: firing off and you come away going, oh, that was really good. So you have
Joanne Lockwood: a positive experience of the whole thing. That's what, that's what you're after, isn't it?
Nikie Forster: Yeah, yeah. Because if somebody's had a positive experience,
Nikie Forster: they're much more open to learning. That's ultimately what, What I'm
Nikie Forster: gearing it for is if they feel comfortable in the space and they
Nikie Forster: feel comfortable with how to express themselves, they are much more likely to
Nikie Forster: retain the learning that they've had and that then becomes much
Nikie Forster: more worthwhile in terms of somebody having employed me to
Nikie Forster: deliver. But them, in terms of having spent their time in term and turning up.
Joanne Lockwood: Are you able to translate this into online or are you more a
Joanne Lockwood: face to face person? I prefer face to face,
Nikie Forster: definitely. I do do some programmes online
Nikie Forster: and I usually send out a workshop pack if I'm.
Nikie Forster: If I'm doing. If it's something like a. I don't tend to do
Nikie Forster: days, I tend to do programmes, shorter sessions, over a
Nikie Forster: period of week. And so in the past, what I've done is I've sent out
Nikie Forster: a workshop pack where I've actually had some form of
Nikie Forster: activity that I want them to do, but I've put it in almost like a
Nikie Forster: party bag, like a little paper bag that I've sealed down with a snicker on
Nikie Forster: it. This is Workshop one. So everybody, you know, we're all online, right?
Nikie Forster: Everybody get your, your, your pack, your little parcel for Workshop one.
Nikie Forster: And so Again, dopamine. We're all open. What is this? You know,
Nikie Forster: opening it up and there's something in there, you know, that
Nikie Forster: it may be a deck of cards. It may. And so, you know, they're going
Nikie Forster: through those. Or it may be a bit of Lego that they have to build.
Nikie Forster: It could be anything. But again, it allows it
Nikie Forster: to be more than just. We're just
Nikie Forster: on the camera and the microphone and talking and I want to go off and
Nikie Forster: get a cup of tea or I'm just distracted by the dog or something. It's
Nikie Forster: getting them physically involved, but also the excitement of, oh, I've got these
Nikie Forster: little presents that I'm going to open up on each. Each session. So that's
Nikie Forster: how I tend to play it if I'm doing online stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's what impressed me about the session that you ran, that I was
Joanne Lockwood: a part of, is the amount of forethought and prep and stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Stuff that was. It wasn't just you stood up with a side deck and talked.
Joanne Lockwood: There was clearly so much depth there of the
Joanne Lockwood: materials you produce. As I always said that these are custom
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. You've designed these, pull these together. And that's not cheap to pull
Joanne Lockwood: together either, is it? You must have invested quite reasonably in the. In
Joanne Lockwood: the card, decks of card, the Lego. You give away, the mats and stuff. You
Joanne Lockwood: must have. Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of money. Some of this.
Nikie Forster: So, sorry, talking over the top of you. Some of this stuff I've designed specifically
Nikie Forster: for me to use, but some of it I design and then sell to other
Nikie Forster: trainers as well. So it has like an ongoing effect. But
Nikie Forster: the Lego, I think it's not that expensive at the end of the day.
Nikie Forster: And for the value that it gives in terms of the experience,
Nikie Forster: well, minifigures. Two pound fifty or thereabouts, isn't it? So one minifigure.
Nikie Forster: Not if you buy Pre Loved minifigures. Pre loved. Okay. Off ebay.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah, I'm all for recycling and upcycling and that kind of stuff.
Nikie Forster: Good old ebay gets quite a lot of my business. Yeah. And I get all
Nikie Forster: sorts and you can. You can get all sorts on there and just give them
Nikie Forster: a little bit of a wash and stuff and they're. They're perfectly good for
Nikie Forster: reusing. Stick them in the dishwasher in a bag or something. Yeah, well, yes.
Nikie Forster: Yeah, that's a good one to do. But, yeah, I think
Nikie Forster: it doesn't matter whether it's half an hour or, you know, as
Nikie Forster: the six part programme. I think the same effort should be
Nikie Forster: put into that experience for both of those.
Joanne Lockwood: I do that. I produce lemonade cards, A6,
Joanne Lockwood: A5A. Well, look, tiny ones. I have props, I have
Joanne Lockwood: lots of videos which I've curated over the years and little games I do. So
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's. I even turn up with a, a crate of, full of Fidget
Joanne Lockwood: toys and baskets. I always provide pens and
Joanne Lockwood: pen holders. I've got sweets, I've got gluten free,
Joanne Lockwood: vegan compatible sweets which I give out this
Joanne Lockwood: coffee biscuit. So I turn up and I spent 15 minutes to get the room
Joanne Lockwood: ready and then when people walk in they go, wow. It's like, oh
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, you can see the meat and the sweets in the biscuits. You think, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: this is kind of. People are eating, they're enjoying, they're settled down,
Joanne Lockwood: they sit there with the Fidget toys. Yeah, help yourself with the Fidget toys.
Nikie Forster: Absolutely. And it tells people, as soon as they walk into the room,
Nikie Forster: it tells them that they've been thought about. You
Nikie Forster: mentioned about the gluten free and the vegan aspect of things. The amount of
Nikie Forster: time I've turned up to a hotel to run
Nikie Forster: a workshop and they've got the biscuits out and you say, okay, where are the
Nikie Forster: gluten free ones? Where are the dairy free ones? Oh no, we don't have any
Nikie Forster: of those. Good job. I bought some then, you know, because it's.
Nikie Forster: My husband is gluten free and dairy free so I know that every time he
Nikie Forster: goes to it, there's never anything for him. And lunch is always
Nikie Forster: just a salad. Yeah. And. And it is kind of like, well, that's not the
Nikie Forster: same experience. So it's, it's the small things that I think really
Nikie Forster: do make the biggest difference for people. A number of times I've turned up for
Joanne Lockwood: lunchtime buffets and things. You see all of this stuff and then at the end
Joanne Lockwood: there's this one plate with a bit of cling film over it that's got vegan
Joanne Lockwood: or dairy free or anything really. We've got all this lovely colour
Joanne Lockwood: and appetising food here and we've got this, this plate of mush at the end
Joanne Lockwood: which is like. And I just think it's so sad. My reaction would be
Joanne Lockwood: start that everyone has vegan or everyone has gluten free or whatever and
Joanne Lockwood: then have your meat pile that you can add to it or something. So if
Joanne Lockwood: you make it all special for everybody and then, then you can add the meat
Joanne Lockwood: or you can add the gluten and people should Engineer it in
Joanne Lockwood: reverse. Yes. Include something for this for everybody
Joanne Lockwood: that you can then upgrade if you need to too. Absolutely. And have
Joanne Lockwood: gluten free upgrades as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yummy and exciting. Yeah, yeah, it's.
Joanne Lockwood: That's conscious inclusion for you though, isn't it? We know about that. Yeah.
Nikie Forster: Is, is. I think that's when you find out whether whether a company
Nikie Forster: is driven by profit or not. Because gluten
Nikie Forster: free, dairy free quite often is more expensive but when
Nikie Forster: you think about it, natural foods tend to be
Nikie Forster: gluten free. You know, it's. Yeah, I think it's just about
Nikie Forster: making the experience good for everybody. Yeah, it is. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's where we started. We talk about person centric. You know, you can't have one
Joanne Lockwood: size fits all because do you want to be the person that's not thought about?
Joanne Lockwood: You're going to switch off, you're going to be disruptive, you're going to be unattentive,
Joanne Lockwood: you're going to be fidgety and that vibe will spread around the room as well.
Nikie Forster: Yeah, it will. It gets picked up very quickly. Nikki, it's been absolutely fascinating.
Joanne Lockwood: I love talking to you and I can't wait to meet for a coffee sometime.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure we'll get to each other some somewhere. Yes. How can
Joanne Lockwood: people get hold of you? So the best way is via my website,
Nikie Forster: which is curiouslighthouse.co.uk Everything is.
Nikie Forster: Is on there from the management development stuff to the Lego series play workshops.
Nikie Forster: But LinkedIn is also where I hang out as well and if they're looking for
Nikie Forster: me, it's Nikie, which is spelled N I K I E just to be different.
Nikie Forster: Forster, F O R S T E R. So yeah, LinkedIn or my
Nikie Forster: website are the two best places to get hold of me. Fabulous. And
Joanne Lockwood: you talked earlier about having aspirations to be on the radio and you probably
Joanne Lockwood: weren't radio friendly enough. And I was thinking as I was talking just then
Joanne Lockwood: that bum sniffing wasn't a phrase I was expecting to say today.
Joanne Lockwood: It probably isn't a phrase you could broadcast on breakfast
Joanne Lockwood: radio or something. So. Yeah, I'm with you. My brain
Joanne Lockwood: slots things into my mouth that I don't necessarily filter sometimes.
Nikie Forster: It's a good job that we've got this as a, as a way of being
Nikie Forster: able to voice ourselves without those rules. And that's right. We can broadcast our
Joanne Lockwood: own radio. Indeed. Thank you so much. It's been absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: wonderful. Thank you. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you for having me on, Joe.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close. I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one
Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.