WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.560 Foreign. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 5 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 8 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 9 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 10 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 11 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 12 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:19.150 And today is episode 207 with the title 19 00:01:19.710 --> 00:01:23.430 Inclusion Through Play. And I have the absolute honour and 20 00:01:23.430 --> 00:01:27.310 privilege to welcome Nikie Forster. Nikie is a learning and development 21 00:01:27.310 --> 00:01:30.790 specialist who challenges traditional training by designing 22 00:01:30.790 --> 00:01:34.710 playful, inclusive experiences that help everyone feel they truly 23 00:01:34.710 --> 00:01:38.510 belong. When I asked Nikki to describe her superpower, she 24 00:01:38.830 --> 00:01:42.830 said it is her ability to turn almost anything into 25 00:01:42.830 --> 00:01:46.230 an engaging, inclusive learning experience that meets people 26 00:01:46.310 --> 00:01:49.990 exactly where they are. Hello, Nikie, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:50.710 --> 00:01:54.710 Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me along today. Pleasure. We met 28 00:01:54.790 --> 00:01:58.310 probably back in October, September, at a local 29 00:01:58.870 --> 00:02:02.750 business coaching workshop series that was being 30 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:06.470 run in the local council offices. Right, something like that. We did, 31 00:02:06.630 --> 00:02:10.470 we did, yes. I think you were part of Cohort 2. I came 32 00:02:10.470 --> 00:02:14.350 along as part of Cohort 1 and the lady who was running asked me to 33 00:02:14.350 --> 00:02:17.490 come back and do a specific piece around 34 00:02:17.890 --> 00:02:21.570 managing people. And I racked my 35 00:02:21.570 --> 00:02:25.410 brains as to how to do that, where it wasn't just, you know, 36 00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:29.290 words on a PowerPoint slide. And I think we engaged over that little 37 00:02:29.290 --> 00:02:33.090 session. Yeah, we did. And my wife Marie was with us as well and 38 00:02:33.090 --> 00:02:36.890 she's not normally one to participate in these kind of stand up 39 00:02:36.890 --> 00:02:40.610 activity games. She's always one of the back. She's the introvert. Don't make me stand 40 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:43.210 up, don't make me clap. Don't make me put a hand in the room. And 41 00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:47.100 even she engaged and I was really impressed. We built little Lego models, 42 00:02:47.100 --> 00:02:49.620 didn't we? And you gave us a box of LEGO each. We played with it, 43 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:53.420 little cards to look at and design our cars. I think it was, 44 00:02:53.900 --> 00:02:56.300 and I think the way you did it was you built it up really, really 45 00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:00.220 slowly that we bought into the concept. So we had, we were invested in 46 00:03:00.220 --> 00:03:02.700 the vehicle. And then you said, right now, I want you to stand up and 47 00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:06.540 put the vehicle on the mat, where it represents where you're at 48 00:03:06.620 --> 00:03:10.580 right now. And of course, you've already got the investment in. It's a very small 49 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:13.790 gap to go from vehicle to in front of you to vehicle, the mat, isn't 50 00:03:13.790 --> 00:03:17.190 it? Watching people, 51 00:03:17.990 --> 00:03:21.990 you know, kind of also different in what people made and what people's 52 00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:25.910 ideas are. And I think that that's. That's part of what draws me to that 53 00:03:25.910 --> 00:03:29.470 style of facilitation is allowing people very much to be 54 00:03:29.470 --> 00:03:33.310 themselves and not just be the loudest person in the room that 55 00:03:33.310 --> 00:03:37.190 wants, you know, is able to express themselves there. And then 56 00:03:37.750 --> 00:03:41.700 it's about everybody being able to think first and then 57 00:03:41.700 --> 00:03:44.940 participate. I'm guessing that you 58 00:03:44.940 --> 00:03:48.660 bespoked the whole. The 59 00:03:48.660 --> 00:03:52.180 game, if you like the game. The cards. You had a deck of cards which 60 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:55.820 we handed out. You had a mat, which I'm presuming you've 61 00:03:55.820 --> 00:03:59.820 designed or at least assembled from some templates and things. But 62 00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:00.180 yeah. 63 00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:07.540 It'S kind of a bit of a mishmash of things. So very much. Some of 64 00:04:07.540 --> 00:04:11.180 the tools that I were using were ones that I've made specifically to use in 65 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:14.880 a training arena. But some of the other elements, like using 66 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.880 the Lego part of that is just learning and development, but it also comes 67 00:04:18.880 --> 00:04:22.800 from something called LEGO Serious Play, which I do a lot of as well, 68 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:26.280 uses LEGO in a slightly different way to how we were using it, but 69 00:04:26.280 --> 00:04:29.920 ultimately is about that interaction and getting people 70 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:33.920 to create things for themselves. Over Covid, I did a few 71 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:37.880 Minecraft events. So again, I guess digging and building in 72 00:04:37.880 --> 00:04:41.600 Minecraft and having a little project team and a project leader to decide how you're 73 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.460 going to excavate or build or construct. Yeah. And achieve 74 00:04:45.460 --> 00:04:49.260 goals. I guess in Minecraft it's just a digital version of LEGO Play. Is it 75 00:04:50.380 --> 00:04:54.180 kind of using LEGO in. So I. I think I 76 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:57.900 probably just need to distinguish because if you've got anybody in your audience who knows 77 00:04:57.900 --> 00:05:01.740 about LEGO Serious Play and I start talking about LEGO, as in we're just 78 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:05.700 building stuff that. That you'll probably get some emails. So because they. They're 79 00:05:05.700 --> 00:05:09.540 quite distinct. So I use it in two different ways. In the way that you're 80 00:05:09.540 --> 00:05:12.460 talking about and the way in which we used it, it was very much using 81 00:05:12.460 --> 00:05:16.240 LEGO as a tool to a 82 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.960 discussion. And so that. That's how we used it. 83 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.400 LEGO Serious Play is an actual methodology 84 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.440 created by the LEGO group back in the 90s, along with two 85 00:05:27.440 --> 00:05:31.000 professors and they created something that has a 86 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.520 specific methodology where everybody builds their answer, 87 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.200 shares their answer, so everybody in the room gets to hear it. And 88 00:05:39.200 --> 00:05:43.000 then you can bring all those models together to create a much bigger 89 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:46.880 narrative, a much bigger model. And so it has very many different 90 00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:50.580 layers to. So depending on what I'm doing will depend on 91 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:53.140 which of those is the best option to use. 92 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:58.180 So I'm assuming that LEGO Serious Play then, is a trademarked 93 00:05:58.660 --> 00:06:02.300 programme and you have to be a certified or part of the 94 00:06:02.300 --> 00:06:06.100 LEGO clan to be able to use it, Is that right? Oh, okay, so 95 00:06:06.260 --> 00:06:10.260 this is where it gets interesting. So the first part of your question. Yes, 96 00:06:10.260 --> 00:06:13.860 it is trademarked. You have to have your little R's in 97 00:06:13.860 --> 00:06:17.820 circles. Are they. What are they called? Registered trademark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if 98 00:06:17.820 --> 00:06:21.360 you're writing LEGO Series Play down, it has to be down that. And. And it 99 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:25.040 is associated with lego. However, they did a really 100 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.920 interesting thing. So they started off with training people to 101 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.840 use it and running certification courses. So because they. It 102 00:06:32.840 --> 00:06:36.800 was originally designed for in house, because if you think in the 103 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.200 mid-90s, you're just talking about mine, Minecraft there in the 104 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:44.040 mid-90s, that's a lot of. When the kind of electrical games came 105 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:47.640 out, a lot of gaming and stuff was becoming big and LEGO was at that 106 00:06:47.640 --> 00:06:51.360 stage where they're going, oh, okay, how do we keep up with this? You, 107 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:55.740 we're just little traditional blocks and things. What do we do? So that's 108 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:59.180 when they collaborated with these two professors to go, 109 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:03.460 surely there's something that we can use in house, that we can spark ideas 110 00:07:03.460 --> 00:07:07.420 and conversations with our teams in order to work out how, what our future is, 111 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:11.380 the strategy. So that's where LEGO Serious Play started. Then 112 00:07:11.380 --> 00:07:15.260 they realised actually other businesses could benefit from this, so they started training people. 113 00:07:16.060 --> 00:07:19.940 But in 2010, they made the decision to 114 00:07:19.940 --> 00:07:23.000 make it what's called open source, which was basically, 115 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.880 here's all the details, here's how you run it. As long as you know how 116 00:07:26.880 --> 00:07:30.760 to facilitate, go ahead and do it. And so you 117 00:07:30.760 --> 00:07:34.720 don't have to be certified. And it's one of my big bugbears, I 118 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.520 can, I can rant about this for quite a while, but I won't. But when 119 00:07:37.520 --> 00:07:41.480 I see people offering LEGO Serious Play certification courses, 120 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:46.360 that's fine. If you're not in learning development, you're not a trainer, 121 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.120 you're not a facilitator and you're learning from scratch, I think it's a good 122 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.790 route to go down. But you. What they're really 123 00:07:54.030 --> 00:07:57.910 teaching you is how to facilitate and using Lego Serious Play 124 00:07:57.910 --> 00:08:01.790 as the underlying method for it. So I run courses 125 00:08:01.790 --> 00:08:05.750 for experienced trainers, facilitators, coaches and educators about how 126 00:08:05.750 --> 00:08:09.310 to use Lego Serious Play. And it's a one day event, you don't have to 127 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:13.070 be certified to do it. So I did go off on a rant there. Sorry. 128 00:08:13.710 --> 00:08:17.710 No, that's fine. It's education. I've learned something that's good. 129 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:23.120 But I think ultimately it should always be about the learner and not 130 00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:26.760 about the, you know, whose model it's 131 00:08:26.760 --> 00:08:30.720 attributed to or the theory. Unless you are using that 132 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.760 throughout an entire programme, it should always be about, well, what's useful for the 133 00:08:34.760 --> 00:08:38.680 learner. How am I going to get the learners to feel comfortable in 134 00:08:38.680 --> 00:08:42.680 the space and open up and engage? And if that means using 135 00:08:42.680 --> 00:08:46.220 Lego, then fantastic, let's do that. And 136 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:50.140 drilling down into that. It's about each individual learner, not the 137 00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:53.580 cohort of learners. Because we've got to be multimodal, we've got to think about 138 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:57.100 each learning style, each attention style, each reward. 139 00:08:57.740 --> 00:09:00.860 Yes. Pathway, all these kind of things. And too often 140 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:05.500 it's a one size fits all. Yeah, I remember 141 00:09:06.540 --> 00:09:10.300 a little while ago, but I do remember it quite vividly. I went along 142 00:09:10.300 --> 00:09:14.020 to a training event and I was writing my 143 00:09:14.020 --> 00:09:17.760 notes. I'm not a copious note taker, but I do like making just notes 144 00:09:17.760 --> 00:09:21.680 or scribbling down things or doodling or something like that. And I was 145 00:09:21.680 --> 00:09:25.320 actually told by the trainer to stop writing. 146 00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:29.560 Yeah. And it took me a moment to kind 147 00:09:29.560 --> 00:09:33.480 of. To kind of what? No, stop writing. You have to listen. That's 148 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.160 how you're going to learn. You have to listen. Well, you're not much of a 149 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.160 trainer if that's what you think. And I didn't say 150 00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:44.760 that out loud, that was in my head, but it took me a while and 151 00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.580 I'm not normally a person that's lost words. But the idea that 152 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:51.860 everybody has to learn in the same way. 153 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:56.100 I think anybody who's worth their salt as a, you know, in learning and development 154 00:09:56.740 --> 00:10:00.380 understands that. However, not everybody does. Some people are very 155 00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:03.900 focused on, well, this is how I learn, so that's how I'm going to train 156 00:10:03.900 --> 00:10:07.380 or teach. So, yes, I think it's really important to understand 157 00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:11.380 and not just to design in that way. So have a 158 00:10:11.380 --> 00:10:15.010 workshop where all of that is incorporated. But to actually 159 00:10:15.170 --> 00:10:19.050 be very much in the moment of this isn't landing, what 160 00:10:19.050 --> 00:10:22.570 do I do differently? Or this is going great, let's do it a bit more. 161 00:10:22.570 --> 00:10:25.890 But that person over there isn't Quite engaging. So, 162 00:10:26.450 --> 00:10:30.450 you know, it's very much around that for me it's being 163 00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:33.930 in the moment and making sure that everybody's getting what they need or want. I 164 00:10:33.930 --> 00:10:37.650 do quite a lot of stuff pre workshop, actually, when I'm running a programme 165 00:10:38.050 --> 00:10:42.010 or working with clients in order to understand who's turning up and what 166 00:10:42.010 --> 00:10:45.720 their needs are. And I think that's really 167 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.720 helpful, not just from my perspective of understanding who's coming into 168 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.400 the room, but I tend to send a form with 169 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.680 a video attached to it. So they get to see me before they turn up, 170 00:10:57.160 --> 00:11:00.760 they get to understand a little bit about how the programme's gonna run. Cause I'm 171 00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:04.360 quite informal in the way that I do things. But everything has a 172 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:08.080 purpose. So I think if people understand all of that upfront, they 173 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:12.070 can make better judgments when they turn up about how they 174 00:11:12.070 --> 00:11:15.990 might want to interact. I remember seeing in the old 175 00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:19.950 days, yes, Steve Jobs at Apple and he was very 176 00:11:19.950 --> 00:11:23.670 famous for his launch and the way he stagecraft everything. 177 00:11:24.470 --> 00:11:28.470 I'm not sure the exact point I'm trying to make here, but 178 00:11:28.470 --> 00:11:32.350 I think what he did was he used to do his presentations inside 8 179 00:11:32.350 --> 00:11:35.990 minute or 10 minute segments. So we would talk for a while, 180 00:11:36.150 --> 00:11:39.590 then he flipped to a video and the video would flip to a live 181 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.510 demonstration and then that would flip to involving somebody else 182 00:11:43.510 --> 00:11:47.470 come in and they talk about it and have a discussion and then 183 00:11:47.470 --> 00:11:50.750 he'd move on to the next thing. So I've always taken that when I'm delivering 184 00:11:50.750 --> 00:11:54.750 training, delivering anything, I want to go through this cycle where I say, here's 185 00:11:54.750 --> 00:11:58.670 my 20 minute segment, I'm going to talk, I'm going to video, we're going to 186 00:11:58.670 --> 00:12:02.550 discuss, we're going to write something down and then we're going to do some Q 187 00:12:02.550 --> 00:12:06.120 and A and then we're going to rinse and repeat, do the next topic. Yeah, 188 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.360 it is keeping fluid, isn't it? Yeah. And now I've got 189 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.000 a puppy. I've learned even more about those kind of techniques where you're constantly trying 190 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.960 to feed the brain and move from one state to another 191 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.800 state before the person shows the teeth and goes out of grounding it. Yes. 192 00:12:22.040 --> 00:12:25.000 Yeah, it is, it's about. I think 193 00:12:25.800 --> 00:12:29.400 the kind of. The real depth of it is psychology rather than anything else. It's 194 00:12:29.400 --> 00:12:33.280 about understanding people. And I think a lot of what I do, regardless of the 195 00:12:33.280 --> 00:12:36.990 topic that I'm training, it nearly always, always comes 196 00:12:37.140 --> 00:12:40.180 comes back to understanding yourself and understanding others. 197 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:44.940 Everything else on top of that is just extra 198 00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:48.140 information that you can sprinkle over and go. And I'm going to use that in 199 00:12:48.140 --> 00:12:51.460 order to do this. But I think self awareness, 200 00:12:52.420 --> 00:12:56.140 whether that's innate or whether you have to learn it is the first 201 00:12:56.140 --> 00:13:00.100 step and then understanding others and how you react 202 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:03.820 to them is the bit that will then get you those, that kind of better 203 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:07.740 interaction. Those are what you just said. There are the key 204 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:11.700 tenets of emotional intelligence, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I 205 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:14.900 think, I think you can learn it. I would say myself that I 206 00:13:15.780 --> 00:13:19.060 have learned self awareness, self management, 207 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:23.340 building relationships, all the attendance of those emotional intelligence there 208 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:27.180 over, over the last 10, 15 years. Before that I was, I was 209 00:13:27.180 --> 00:13:30.820 unaware of who I was, how I showed up 210 00:13:31.550 --> 00:13:34.510 and I was unaware what if that mattered or not. 211 00:13:35.390 --> 00:13:38.510 So I think yes you can, I think you put people in a space where 212 00:13:38.510 --> 00:13:42.430 they go, the light bulb comes on and go, ah, okay. The world is much 213 00:13:42.430 --> 00:13:46.350 simpler if I understand who I am. Yes. 214 00:13:47.150 --> 00:13:51.030 Yeah. And I think it's really interesting to think about how 215 00:13:51.030 --> 00:13:55.030 we get to that point of self awareness and I do think some people 216 00:13:55.030 --> 00:13:58.910 have more insight than others naturally. But 217 00:13:59.070 --> 00:14:02.830 like we just said, I think it can also be learned and I 218 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:06.830 think there are aspects that you can do yourself 219 00:14:06.830 --> 00:14:09.670 in order to learn that, but there are aspects that other people can help you 220 00:14:09.670 --> 00:14:13.550 with as well. So yeah, simple things. Like years and 221 00:14:13.550 --> 00:14:17.350 years ago I did my first personality profiling. Yeah. You know, 222 00:14:17.589 --> 00:14:21.310 thing where you find out what your colours are and the stuff and then what 223 00:14:21.310 --> 00:14:24.870 that means and then whether you like the results of that or not. 224 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:28.950 So that I think was probably my first journey into it being. But I had 225 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:32.910 some very good managers when I was younger, particularly starting 226 00:14:32.910 --> 00:14:36.870 out in my training career, who were more coaching 227 00:14:36.870 --> 00:14:40.710 managers which, which worked well for me 228 00:14:40.710 --> 00:14:44.710 to a certain level. Although I'm quite a pragmatist at heart. So 229 00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:48.310 I like to be involved and I like, like for me to have an opinion. 230 00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:52.910 But ultimately I need to know why. Why are you asking me that? Why, why 231 00:14:52.910 --> 00:14:56.860 am I doing it this way? And so the managers 232 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:00.540 that I had at the time understood that about me 233 00:15:00.780 --> 00:15:04.380 and was able to help me find my own way, 234 00:15:05.420 --> 00:15:09.340 encourage me to be the me that I am now. In 235 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:13.100 terms of. Yes, I do turn up with suitcases full of 236 00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:16.540 props in my training sessions and I always have to a certain extent. But I 237 00:15:16.540 --> 00:15:20.340 think in those early years when I was, my world of 238 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:23.980 training experience was more about sitting in a room and seeing people 239 00:15:24.060 --> 00:15:27.990 talk at, you know, it was more of a presentation or a lecture. And 240 00:15:28.150 --> 00:15:31.670 so that was my experience of being content. And you're going to have it. 241 00:15:32.070 --> 00:15:35.990 Yes, exactly. And I'm the expert on it and you know, 242 00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:39.990 you have to ask me the questions. So when, when you have an experience 243 00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:43.710 that you then think, well, I don't want to do it that way. And is 244 00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:47.470 that okay? You need that encouragement. You need people to go, yes, it's all 245 00:15:47.470 --> 00:15:51.230 right to do things differently. And I was very lucky that I had that. Yeah. 246 00:15:51.230 --> 00:15:54.110 I tend to always assume that somebody in the room probably knows more than I 247 00:15:54.110 --> 00:15:57.870 do about the topic. So I never want to consider myself the expert. 248 00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:01.030 I'm just there. I often say when I start talking is that I'm not here 249 00:16:01.030 --> 00:16:04.590 to tell you what to say, think or do. I'm just asking you to think 250 00:16:05.310 --> 00:16:09.030 about what you want to say, think or do. And I 251 00:16:09.030 --> 00:16:12.950 obviously, I always have this, the acronym WIFM W I, 252 00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:16.750 I F.M. you know, what's in it for me? So I'm always thinking about why 253 00:16:16.750 --> 00:16:20.350 the person's in the room, what they're hoping to get out of it. I really 254 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:23.790 want to hear why they're here, why they're there and what they're expecting. Because I. 255 00:16:24.020 --> 00:16:28.020 Yes, if I'm talking about this and everybody else and everyone wants to 256 00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:31.700 talk about that, then I need to adjust. I can't force them to my side 257 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:35.380 of the fence. I need to meet them. Meet them where they are. Absolutely, 258 00:16:35.380 --> 00:16:39.220 absolutely. And I think it's very much when you treat people like 259 00:16:39.220 --> 00:16:42.900 adults, but you're telling them that you're treating them like adults, 260 00:16:43.540 --> 00:16:47.460 I think you get a much better response. Again, 261 00:16:48.420 --> 00:16:52.420 kind of having, I'm not a great delegate in workshops because 262 00:16:52.420 --> 00:16:55.020 I sit there and I go, why are you doing that? I just want to 263 00:16:55.020 --> 00:16:58.720 redesign everything. But one of the things that I really struggle 264 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:02.400 with is when people open up a workshop and they say things 265 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:06.240 like, right, everybody has to switch their phone off. Or even worse, 266 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.760 here's a bowl in the middle of the table. Everybody put your phones in there 267 00:17:10.760 --> 00:17:14.280 because I don't want you to be distracted or that's just treating them like a 268 00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:17.760 5 year old. Not that 5 year olds have phones. Well, they might do, but 269 00:17:17.760 --> 00:17:21.400 you know, it's like everybody's busy. If you need to use your phone, you use 270 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.309 your phone. But just be considerate. I don't even mention phones. I 271 00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:29.109 have to be honest because I think setting the 272 00:17:29.109 --> 00:17:32.509 expectation for people about we're all adults in the room. 273 00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:36.509 Nobody is, you know, saying you have to be here. 274 00:17:36.989 --> 00:17:40.989 Nobody is saying they have to participate. But when you do, you do it with 275 00:17:41.469 --> 00:17:45.349 consideration for others. And we do it with respect and things like that. Yeah. 276 00:17:45.349 --> 00:17:49.189 So I think setting expectations is important, but doing it as an 277 00:17:49.189 --> 00:17:52.890 adult is even more. Yeah, I tend to try and start with an expectations 278 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.690 contract, if you like, where we are part of whiteboard. So what do we 279 00:17:56.690 --> 00:17:59.850 expect of each other today? Being present? Be attentive. 280 00:18:00.250 --> 00:18:04.010 Yeah. Create space for learning, don't jump to conclusions, 281 00:18:04.010 --> 00:18:06.810 allow people to have their opinions or those sort of things. So I would try 282 00:18:06.810 --> 00:18:10.210 and do it that way. And that's why I say be present is kind of 283 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:13.970 my way of saying, if you could turn your notifications off, silence the 284 00:18:13.970 --> 00:18:17.210 thing. But I also, look, if you need to make a phone call, you're busy, 285 00:18:17.290 --> 00:18:20.990 you want to make a phone call, please step out, go and go to the 286 00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:23.950 toilet when you want, use the phone when you want, but do it outside the 287 00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:27.950 room. I ran a workshop a little while ago, probably a 288 00:18:27.950 --> 00:18:31.910 year ago, and I think it was the chief people officer was 289 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:34.750 in the room and they constantly were sat there on the laptop going. 290 00:18:35.790 --> 00:18:38.670 And then their phone was beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. All the other 291 00:18:38.670 --> 00:18:42.550 delegates were going, this person's supposed to be setting an example 292 00:18:42.550 --> 00:18:46.070 here. And I felt really, really uncomfortable because I could feel everybody else was 293 00:18:46.070 --> 00:18:49.480 uncomfortable and I didn't want to sort of say, or you stop it. 294 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.840 But I was. And they were looking to me as a kind of, you know, 295 00:18:53.840 --> 00:18:57.360 because you're one of your training, you're the leader, aren't you, to take responsibility and 296 00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:01.320 do something. And I, I wasn't sure how to do it without being 297 00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:05.120 kind of authoritarian. I didn't want to be authoritarian. I, what 298 00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:08.520 I, I think what I let happen was I let the room 299 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:14.280 decide it was unacceptable. Yes. Without me saying it. And 300 00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:17.760 I, and this person, they were just oblivious. Oblivious to the impact they were having 301 00:19:17.760 --> 00:19:21.480 on everybody else. And I just. It's coming back to that self 302 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:25.480 awareness bit again, isn't it? I think in the past when I've had that, 303 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:29.480 not with laptops and stuff, but when somebody's been like on the phone and 304 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.320 stuff, depending on the room, sometimes I have just 305 00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:36.480 said, would you like us to wait until you finished? You know, if it's been 306 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.160 going on a while and they go, oh, no, I'm really sorry, or actually, yeah, 307 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.120 no, this is really important. Okay, do you want to take it outside then so 308 00:19:43.120 --> 00:19:46.900 that we can focus on what we're doing rather than on what you're doing? Or 309 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:50.900 sometimes if they're repeat offenders, then I will walk around 310 00:19:50.900 --> 00:19:54.700 the room and just stand at the back of them while I'm still 311 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:58.460 talking. So everybody eyes is on me. But ultimately that person 312 00:19:59.340 --> 00:20:03.180 realises that that's a good technique and they realise then. But I'm 313 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:06.780 quite happy to. I'm pausing here because I was gonna say I'm quite happy to 314 00:20:06.780 --> 00:20:10.740 call people out on it, but this is something that you taught me in 315 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:14.020 one of your posts quite a while ago. Now. I remember seeing this and it's 316 00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:17.820 always stuck with me. You did a post about not 317 00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:22.160 people out, but calling people in. And that's 318 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.120 always stuck with me. And I really like that. And so I, I 319 00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:28.880 try and do that more and more. So I don't try and embarrass people and 320 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.240 I don't try and make them feel as though they should know that what they're 321 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.240 doing is either wrong or unacceptable because they might not know, they might not 322 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.240 be self aware, there might be other things going on for them. So I try 323 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.720 and do it in a way that, you know, allows them to feel as though 324 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.150 they're not being told off and just making them feel more self aware that 325 00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:51.190 actually what you're doing is distracting or what you've said isn't appropriate 326 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:54.990 or, you know. But allowing them to learn from it 327 00:20:54.990 --> 00:20:58.990 rather than feel defensive. Yeah, that's why I try and 328 00:20:58.990 --> 00:21:02.950 do the contract at the beginning. It's. We all agree that we need 329 00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:06.910 to be present, we all agree that it's a good idea not to 330 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:09.990 be distracted with other things. And we all agree that if you want to use 331 00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:12.470 the phone, you want to go to the toilet, you want to do anything else, 332 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:16.900 you feel free. This is not primary school where you have to put your hand 333 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:19.860 up and ask for permission. You just stand up and walk out and it's absolutely 334 00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:23.260 fine. Yeah, but the words that you use there to 335 00:21:23.340 --> 00:21:27.020 describe that is the words that I use as well. It's about expectations. So what 336 00:21:27.020 --> 00:21:30.820 expectations do you have of what we're doing? Of me? Of your peers, 337 00:21:30.820 --> 00:21:34.740 rather than using the term ground rules. Because again, as 338 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.380 soon as you start using that rules, we're limiting 339 00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:42.340 people. Yeah, again. But the group should decide. It shouldn't be me 340 00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:45.540 dictating, it should be the group. I mean, if the group said, look, actually we're 341 00:21:45.540 --> 00:21:49.260 all trying to close a deal at the moment and we're all on standby and 342 00:21:49.260 --> 00:21:52.180 if the deal happens, we've all got to jump up and go and do something. 343 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:56.740 I go, okay, it's going to be a rough ride, but I'll factor that into 344 00:21:56.900 --> 00:22:00.820 my meeting plan or my lesson plan and I'll meet You where you're at 345 00:22:00.820 --> 00:22:04.740 and you're paying me to be here, you want me to do a 346 00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:08.520 great job. As long as you take away those key things, I may skip half 347 00:22:08.520 --> 00:22:12.320 the content because you're not listening and go straight to some action stuff 348 00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:15.720 where you have to be engaged because you're doing things. Yeah, 349 00:22:16.840 --> 00:22:20.800 yeah. But again, you have expectations, setting. Yeah. I've chaired so many 350 00:22:20.800 --> 00:22:24.640 board meetings where board members sat around the table with their 351 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.600 phones and their laptop and someone's giving a report and everyone's doing this on 352 00:22:28.600 --> 00:22:32.170 their own laptop, their eyes are down and then. And then when it's their turn 353 00:22:32.170 --> 00:22:35.730 for report, they give their report and everybody else's eye down. Do you think 354 00:22:36.050 --> 00:22:39.730 half of you haven't paid attention to anything that's going on? And you look at 355 00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:43.090 questions at the end or people disagreeing with the minutes, you think, 356 00:22:43.570 --> 00:22:46.450 were you not there at the time? No, you weren't actually. I remember you were 357 00:22:46.450 --> 00:22:49.010 sitting there writing your own personal emails while you were, while you were around the 358 00:22:49.010 --> 00:22:53.010 table. And it is frustrating, that respect thing. If you want people 359 00:22:53.010 --> 00:22:56.970 to listen to you, you need to give people their 360 00:22:56.970 --> 00:23:00.910 space. And that's that self regulation, that emotional intelligence of understand the 361 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:04.870 room, isn't it? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's. That's one of 362 00:23:04.870 --> 00:23:08.790 the reasons why I gravitated towards the Lego series play that 363 00:23:08.790 --> 00:23:12.710 we spoke about earlier, was because as well as everybody having 364 00:23:12.710 --> 00:23:16.510 to build their own models in a proper structured session, I would then go around 365 00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:19.430 every single person and ask them to explain their model, 366 00:23:20.550 --> 00:23:24.550 how they see it, so there's no wrong answers. But also, then I get 367 00:23:24.550 --> 00:23:27.350 the rest of the group to ask questions of the model, 368 00:23:28.600 --> 00:23:32.520 not, not the whys, you know, why have you done that? But I see you've 369 00:23:32.520 --> 00:23:35.800 got a pink flower on the edge of your model there. What does that represent? 370 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.440 So in order to ask those questions, you have to have 371 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.320 listened to what the person says. Otherwise you've 372 00:23:44.320 --> 00:23:48.320 asking a question about something that's already been said and it 373 00:23:48.320 --> 00:23:51.880 does. And it drives deeper listening, but it also 374 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.120 drives a deeper discussion. Because some people, even when they've built something, 375 00:23:56.120 --> 00:24:00.120 will go, well, I built this and it represents how 376 00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:04.080 I'm motivated on, you know, do my work. And that's all they'll 377 00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:07.800 say. Some people will go into it very elaborately, but when you start asking 378 00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:11.280 questions about, well, what. Tell me about that pink flower on the edge of the 379 00:24:11.600 --> 00:24:15.480 model. What does that represent? And even if they say, oh, I don't know, 380 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.360 I just like the flower, you then follow it up with well, now that I've 381 00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:22.800 pointed out, what might it represent? And they can give you an answer, and they 382 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:26.720 always do. They'll say something like, well, actually, that's probably 383 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.580 what I'm hoping it be like. But it's right on the edge. It 384 00:24:30.580 --> 00:24:34.060 feels as though it's slightly out of reach. And you get these real deep 385 00:24:34.060 --> 00:24:37.620 insights into things. And the level of 386 00:24:37.620 --> 00:24:40.540 listening and contribution really shifts 387 00:24:41.420 --> 00:24:45.380 when you do something like that, rather than the standard, has 388 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:49.060 anybody got any questions? And everybody 389 00:24:49.060 --> 00:24:52.980 goes, okay, how close to lunchtime is it? I might not answer because 390 00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:55.860 it means you're going to be here for another five minutes and I'd rather go 391 00:24:55.860 --> 00:24:59.660 now. So, yeah, it's interesting how you can shift the conversations along. 392 00:25:00.330 --> 00:25:03.130 Yeah. One of the things I liked about the exercise I did with you, with 393 00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:07.130 my wife and others was that initial phase where 394 00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:10.810 you're building and you're sharing a pile of Lego with somebody else. 395 00:25:11.050 --> 00:25:14.690 You're interacting with the person next to you who you may not know is also 396 00:25:14.690 --> 00:25:18.450 a very good bonding opportunity. And you're discussing and you've broken that 397 00:25:18.450 --> 00:25:22.370 ice in your one to your left, one to your right, 398 00:25:22.370 --> 00:25:26.250 and you, your three. And if there's another three, you overlap and it almost 399 00:25:26.250 --> 00:25:29.990 like infects around the table. You start to have conversations. You're standing there 400 00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:33.710 queuing up to put your model on the map, on the mat. And again 401 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:37.030