Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 208 with the title
Joanne Lockwood: Reclaiming Intimate Connection. And I have the absolute
Joanne Lockwood: honour and privilege to welcome Xanet Pailet. Xanet is a
Joanne Lockwood: nationally recognised sex and intimacy educator, coach, best
Joanne Lockwood: selling author and retreat leader who helps committed couples
Joanne Lockwood: repair disconnection and rediscover emotional
Joanne Lockwood: and sexual intimacy after years of struggle. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Shanae to describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability
Joanne Lockwood: to guide couples through shame and silence into honest,
Joanne Lockwood: embodied conversations that restore safety, desire
Joanne Lockwood: and deep connection. Hello, Xanet. Welcome to the show.
Xanet Pailet: Thank you, Jo. I am super excited to be here and have this
Xanet Pailet: conversation with you and help your audience learn how to
Xanet Pailet: have a better sex life and improve it.
Joanne Lockwood: When your email came in with your blurb for the, for the show, I read
Joanne Lockwood: it and thought, oh, this sounds interesting. Sex, Sex and intimacy educator.
Joanne Lockwood: I thought, well, as a, as a, as a, as a 60 year old, I've,
Joanne Lockwood: I've had my plenty of, plenty of life to have sex
Joanne Lockwood: and it be intimate. So it'd be interesting to see where we go with this.
Joanne Lockwood: Beautiful. So you're, you're based in the States somewhere, is it?
Xanet Pailet: I am, yes. I'm in the States. I'm in Asheville, North Carolina.
Xanet Pailet: Western North Carolina, in the mountains. We just snowed here a little bit
Xanet Pailet: last night. Oh, wow. Wow. Because I always think of the
Joanne Lockwood: Carolinas as being sort of the south and hot and sticky. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: When I was there in what, 93, it was very hot and
Joanne Lockwood: sticky. So you've got snow and mountains? Well,
Xanet Pailet: yeah. And in the winter, most of North Carolina
Xanet Pailet: gets colder anyway. Like, you know, people think it's going to be
Xanet Pailet: warm here, but it's not. It's, you know, even by the beach. It's probably
Xanet Pailet: down in the. Maybe freeze right here. It's. I don't know, in the 20s.
Joanne Lockwood: I was chatting to another guest who is from Atlanta in Georgia, which is probably
Joanne Lockwood: a neighbour, isn't it? Ish. Yeah. Like five hours away. Georgia.
Joanne Lockwood: It was saying they were. They were saying it was cold. Yeah. Back last November.
Joanne Lockwood: So you were having quite. Quite a cold snap, if you like.
Joanne Lockwood: Disproportionate. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that is true. But,
Xanet Pailet: you know, we've got our warm coats and our fireplaces and
Xanet Pailet: Ugg boots. It's all good. Oh, yeah, we've got to have
Joanne Lockwood: our Ugg boots. We definitely gotta have our Ugg boots as well. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not really cold enough here for too much, but, yeah, we're more of a
Joanne Lockwood: wet and windy sort of part of the country. So. Yeah. Miserable
Joanne Lockwood: damp. Yeah, I can handle snow, I can handle a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of ice, but, yeah, damp. Yeah. That's kind of hard too, the damp. The.
Xanet Pailet: Yeah. So you said in your notes that you put through
Joanne Lockwood: that you yourself had experienced
Joanne Lockwood: a 26 year sexless marriage and
Joanne Lockwood: you obviously had an epiphany. You had some moment in that time that
Joanne Lockwood: triggered you into doing something about that. So tell me a bit about that.
Xanet Pailet: Yeah, I mean, I was married for 26 years
Xanet Pailet: and that marriage was primarily sexless probably
Xanet Pailet: for 20 years, which is actually
Xanet Pailet: less uncommon than you would think. Right. Like, there's. There's a lot of couples that
Xanet Pailet: are actually living in sexless marriages. And mine
Xanet Pailet: was really related to a lot of
Xanet Pailet: my own trauma growing up in childhood. Not
Xanet Pailet: sexual abuse trauma, but shame trauma, which is a
Xanet Pailet: thing, and some medical trauma, which is also a thing. So it just
Xanet Pailet: made sex uncomfortable and painful and my body was just
Xanet Pailet: really, really shut down. And because
Xanet Pailet: we were super young, I was 24 when I got married. I just
Xanet Pailet: graduated law school. We really didn't have skills,
Xanet Pailet: knowledge, information, the ability to be able to process this,
Xanet Pailet: to talk about it, to solve it, to do anything about it other than fight
Xanet Pailet: about it and then just stop it because we had to stop the fighting
Xanet Pailet: and be parents. And so it just went on, you know, for 20
Xanet Pailet: years. And it for me was like, oh, you know, doesn't feel good
Xanet Pailet: anyway, want to do this. Like, it just. It made no sense to me that
Xanet Pailet: people wanted to have sex ever. Just didn't. I know, but
Xanet Pailet: it's true. And so, you know, like, what do we do? Like, we take all
Xanet Pailet: of that sexual energy which we have, like, poured it into
Xanet Pailet: my kids and my business and my hobbies and
Xanet Pailet: my side businesses and allowed the relationship to
Xanet Pailet: wither because that's what happens a lot of the times
Xanet Pailet: when there's bad communication, you're feeling disconnected from your
Xanet Pailet: partner, there's a big issue you can't talk about. And intimacy just like
Xanet Pailet: fades over a period of time
Xanet Pailet: until we found ourselves living separate lives, living
Xanet Pailet: in separate bedrooms, even while our kids were growing up. So, yeah,
Xanet Pailet: it was a challenging in some ways. It didn't feel
Xanet Pailet: challenging at the time because I was so busy with other stuff.
Xanet Pailet: But looking back on it, it's like, yeah, that was. There was a lot of
Xanet Pailet: grief that happened of the. Not so much the sex, but the lack
Xanet Pailet: of closeness, the lack of feeling emotionally supported and emotionally
Xanet Pailet: connected. Does sex really matter in a relationship?
Xanet Pailet: Ah, so interesting. I just posted on Facebook a
Xanet Pailet: question. I literally posted that question like you can. And it was like,
Xanet Pailet: you can have. You can have sex without love, but in a long term
Xanet Pailet: relationship, can you have love? Can you. You can have. Sorry,
Xanet Pailet: you can have sex without love, but in a long time relationship, can you
Xanet Pailet: have love without sex? And I got a lot of feedback and a lot of
Xanet Pailet: comments on that question that I posed. And it was really
Xanet Pailet: fascinating to me to get to hear what people had to say. So
Xanet Pailet: what I heard from a lot of people, and mind you, a lot of
Xanet Pailet: these people who are responding to my Facebook posts are already pretty sex
Xanet Pailet: positive and a whole bunch of them are already in like open
Xanet Pailet: relationships. So it's not really apples to apples,
Xanet Pailet: right? But you know, what I heard
Xanet Pailet: very, very frequently was like, yes, you can. You know, like
Xanet Pailet: that does happen over time. Things do change. And it's, and it's,
Xanet Pailet: you know, and I get that. And I always question whether
Xanet Pailet: that's happening with consent, whether it's happening because conversations
Xanet Pailet: aren't happening. And actually one partner wants sex and the
Xanet Pailet: other partner has maybe a lower desire.
Xanet Pailet: So, you know, it's actually a great question. So clearly there's a lot of couples
Xanet Pailet: that are together who aren't having sex, right?
Xanet Pailet: The question that I always ask is like, is that
Xanet Pailet: consensual? Have you guys had a conversation and
Xanet Pailet: decided like, yes, you know, we're in a new stage of life
Xanet Pailet: and we just don't want to have sex anymore. We just want to
Xanet Pailet: cuddle maybe, and that's just what we want, or
Xanet Pailet: is it that one person is holding a lot of resentment because her sexual needs
Xanet Pailet: aren't being met or, you know, as is often the case,
Xanet Pailet: is this really about, we're not having sex because there's other
Xanet Pailet: relationship issues going on underneath that. And we're feeling
Xanet Pailet: emotionally disconnected. And because we're feeling emotionally disconnected and there's a lot of
Xanet Pailet: resentment and anger, we don't really want to have sex with each other. Right.
Xanet Pailet: So there's, there's a lot of different ways that you can skin that cat, if
Xanet Pailet: you will. It's a great question. I was super curious about how people answered it.
Joanne Lockwood: I've. I've got loads of things firing up off in my head right now. So
Joanne Lockwood: how, how, how would you describe sex?
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, because sex is a spectrum. It is. And
Joanne Lockwood: it doesn't have to be penetrative. There are other ways
Joanne Lockwood: of. Yeah. So how would you describe sex? I think that's. That's a great. That's
Xanet Pailet: a great question. Right. And I didn't, I didn't buy that. But, you know,
Xanet Pailet: typically, I think when people think about sex, they think about penis and
Xanet Pailet: vagina, which we call in the sex therapy world, pivot
Xanet Pailet: sex. Right. I don't define it that way. I think that's one of the
Xanet Pailet: challenges that a lot of couples have in their relationship is they're
Xanet Pailet: so oriented towards penetrative sex, and
Xanet Pailet: they're so oriented towards goals and
Xanet Pailet: orgasms that they lose out on a lot of other opportunities.
Xanet Pailet: So, like, I define sex as a very,
Xanet Pailet: you know, sort of wide spectrum, just like you said,
Xanet Pailet: right? Anything from, like having a makeout session, like a
Xanet Pailet: fruit first base makeout session, to penetrative sex. Right. And
Xanet Pailet: anything in between. So if you can, you know, open up the definition
Xanet Pailet: of sex, then there's a lot of ways to be able to connect with your
Xanet Pailet: partner erotically that don't have to involve.
Xanet Pailet: That don't necessarily have to involve penetration. That's
Xanet Pailet: helpful for couples to understand that. But they also have to shift their
Xanet Pailet: mind, right? There has to be a paradigm shift around
Xanet Pailet: what sex is and, you know, what it is now and what it
Xanet Pailet: could potentially be. I think back to my
Joanne Lockwood: school days, you know, behind the bicycle sheds, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: going for walks in the woods. And I remember having
Joanne Lockwood: several girlfriends at the time who we would
Joanne Lockwood: certainly not go all the way. This was not a meatloaf
Joanne Lockwood: bat out of hell. I've got to know right now, will you love me forever
Joanne Lockwood: Type conversation. We were probably first base, second base,
Joanne Lockwood: groping, fondling, probably achieving
Joanne Lockwood: orgasm, but not with any
Joanne Lockwood: PIV, if you want using the phrase you use.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'm pretty sure at the time we thought that was pretty risky.
Joanne Lockwood: We didn't feel that we were holding back. We just Respected each other enough to
Joanne Lockwood: say we don't want to go any further than that. And even in couples now
Joanne Lockwood: can still go a long way without actually having penetrative sex.
Xanet Pailet: Totally. And it's a good thing to do.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And also just
Joanne Lockwood: putting a sort of multidimensional spin on this. You know, we talk about this in
Joanne Lockwood: heteronormative terms. Not everybody has one
Joanne Lockwood: of each in a couple. Sometimes you don't have a penis, you don't have a
Joanne Lockwood: vagina in a couple. PIV is
Joanne Lockwood: not the only way of. Totally of being intimate, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Xanet Pailet: definitely. And. Yeah, well, definitely. And non heteronormative. Right.
Xanet Pailet: There's a lot of different ways to be intimate, but yeah, it's
Xanet Pailet: definitely not, you know, it can vary from, you
Xanet Pailet: know, like I said, from having a makeout session to
Xanet Pailet: even just sexting with each other or, you know, talking about
Xanet Pailet: a fantasy like that can be a huge turn on for a couple.
Xanet Pailet: They don't have to do anything about it, but they can just talk about it.
Xanet Pailet: Right. So the more we can open up the definition of sex, the
Xanet Pailet: more ability, hopefully couples will have to be able to
Xanet Pailet: have more sexual interaction with each other. So what
Joanne Lockwood: we're saying here then is that the. The term sex
Joanne Lockwood: is not one thing, is it? Is it? Or is there a
Joanne Lockwood: commonality? Is it to. To put a phrase,
Joanne Lockwood: something that gets your juices flowing in some way? Yeah, that's how I
Xanet Pailet: define it. Like anything that creates erotic energy is sex.
Xanet Pailet: That's it. That's my definition. That's a very, very broad definition,
Xanet Pailet: but I think it's a definition that opens up a lot more possibilities
Xanet Pailet: for people to be able to interact with their partner sexually
Xanet Pailet: without having all of the pressure that comes with, you
Xanet Pailet: know, genital focus Sex? Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwood: generating that. Generating that intimacy in however you do that,
Joanne Lockwood: and that can be just through touch, through making out. It
Joanne Lockwood: could be just beholding and hugging each other and just being with each other and
Joanne Lockwood: feeling that energy. Right. Without having to go all the way,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever that all the way means. Exactly. Not everybody can.
Joanne Lockwood: Without blue pills and Viagra, some people can't achieve that. Some people have
Joanne Lockwood: menopause, their vagina is not capable of receiving anymore
Joanne Lockwood: for various reasons. So, yeah, a whole host of reasons medically, why it may not
Joanne Lockwood: be practical as well. That's absolutely true. Yeah. So how did.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm assuming that when you. Using yourself as an example, as you. As
Joanne Lockwood: you put yourself on the line here, was it something
Joanne Lockwood: you drifted into and nobody noticed the slide until it
Joanne Lockwood: Got too far. You had children
Joanne Lockwood: and there's always obviously a pause when
Joanne Lockwood: you're raising the children. You've got some stress going on, you're trying to work,
Joanne Lockwood: look after the kids. All this other thing, you end up with tension and arguments
Joanne Lockwood: and debate. As you talked about, you fall out of love a bit, you never
Joanne Lockwood: quite reclaim that. Is it, is that typically a pattern? I don't know that
Xanet Pailet: my pattern withstander is like my pattern
Xanet Pailet: I don't think is typical because of all of the pain that I had
Xanet Pailet: with sex. So it was just like, I don't want to do this, my body
Xanet Pailet: hurts. This isn't fun. You know, you're not getting off, I'm not getting
Xanet Pailet: off. We're. I'm crying, you're frustrated, like
Xanet Pailet: screw this, right? So I don't know that I'm typical. But what is
Xanet Pailet: typical, right? And take me out of the, out of the equation for
Xanet Pailet: the moment. I think what is typical is, yeah, of
Xanet Pailet: course, you know, it does tend to happen and it does
Xanet Pailet: tend to fade, often slowly, before you know it,
Xanet Pailet: right. Certainly when you have children. Children screw up people's sex
Xanet Pailet: lives, we all know that, right? That's just an absolute reality.
Xanet Pailet: It makes it so much harder to find, to connect. Like it's
Xanet Pailet: just, you know, you never know when they're going to run into the bedroom, right?
Xanet Pailet: Like it is a problem. And even as they get older, like I was just
Xanet Pailet: working with a couple the other day and they're like, well, we love our 13
Xanet Pailet: year old daughter, but like she wants to like come in at 10 o' clock
Xanet Pailet: at night and like, you know, shoot the shit with her and it's great, we
Xanet Pailet: love that. But that really screws up our sex life because we don't know when
Xanet Pailet: that's going to happen, right? So it's not like once they're past 10,
Xanet Pailet: things actually change. So that does make it challenging.
Xanet Pailet: And you know, you really have to, to make it a priority.
Xanet Pailet: But I do think that, you know,
Xanet Pailet: and this is, this is kind of what my Facebook post proved, right, is
Xanet Pailet: that like it does fade slowly over time
Xanet Pailet: and some of this is, you know, some level of it is a
Xanet Pailet: natural. Like things are going to change when you're in a long term relationship,
Xanet Pailet: right? Unless you really, it's important to you and you really make a
Xanet Pailet: priority to keep things interesting and new and different and
Xanet Pailet: experiment because people start getting bored and a lot
Xanet Pailet: of times when you start getting bored, you know, sex is only okay
Xanet Pailet: then maybe I'd rather be cooking, right? Like
Xanet Pailet: it Just doesn't become as important, as much of a priority
Xanet Pailet: when it just doesn't feel that good or if it's only okay or it's starting
Xanet Pailet: to get boring. And, and I think that's part of the reason
Xanet Pailet: that, that sex starts fading
Xanet Pailet: over time. We're just doing the same thing over and over again. I can just
Xanet Pailet: pull up my vibrator and have an orgasm just as quick as you can get
Xanet Pailet: me that. You know what I'm saying? And that, that doesn't actually hit
Xanet Pailet: the desires that we want. Like it doesn't hit our turn ons. And I think
Xanet Pailet: that's where a lot of couples get stuck. They, they get in this
Xanet Pailet: rote place. It's not really hitting their erotic
Xanet Pailet: desires and their erotic turn ons. And so it just becomes, at best,
Xanet Pailet: at worst, it's like, I'm going to do it to please you because I don't
Xanet Pailet: want to lose you. And then it becomes obligation sex.
Xanet Pailet: And then often that builds up, you know, some resentment.
Xanet Pailet: And so I don't really want to do that. I don't want to feel like
Xanet Pailet: I'm having obligation sex. So it just, it stops.
Xanet Pailet: And you know, does stress get in the way? Like, let's take kids out
Xanet Pailet: of the equation, you know, financial stress,
Xanet Pailet: you know, familial stress. Like all of the things,
Xanet Pailet: all of the ways in which life is so stressful, especially now.
Xanet Pailet: Right. Especially in the United States right now.
Xanet Pailet: It really makes people lose their libido. They're just
Xanet Pailet: like, you know, that is one of the biggest libido killers is stress.
Xanet Pailet: And I think a lot of people are feeling a lot of stress in their
Xanet Pailet: bodies. Yeah. The world is not a, a safe
Joanne Lockwood: place these days. Isn't it not a safe place these days? We're closer to nuclear
Joanne Lockwood: war than we've been since jfk. Yeah,
Xanet Pailet: absolutely. It's not Cuban. Missing class. Yeah, we're all,
Joanne Lockwood: we're all feeling it. Is this true
Joanne Lockwood: what Bert say when couples are in these
Joanne Lockwood: sexless marriages, Sexless relationships, sexless,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever. However you want to describe the coupling, one of them
Joanne Lockwood: can be jolted into another, into a sexy based relationship with
Joanne Lockwood: somebody else randomly. You know, so I have an affair, flirting, sexting, glance
Joanne Lockwood: at the bar, quick drink, all of a sudden something happens. So
Joanne Lockwood: is that, does that kind of mean that inherently we're all
Joanne Lockwood: wired to go, I can do this again. But it needs that,
Joanne Lockwood: that difference, that trigger, that, that spark, those, those dopamine
Joanne Lockwood: chemicals floating around in your head or something kicking off. So we've all got that
Joanne Lockwood: potential to rekindle it with somebody else.
Xanet Pailet: Yeah. Trying to rekindle it together. Yeah. I mean, of course,
Xanet Pailet: I think that's one of the reasons, the biggest reasons that couples
Xanet Pailet: separate. Right. Is they're not having sex. Right. That is a huge
Xanet Pailet: pain point in a lot of relationships. Or
Xanet Pailet: somebody goes outside of the marriage because they're not having sex in the marriage
Xanet Pailet: and then, you know, they go outside of the marriage.
Xanet Pailet: And yes. I mean, there is the
Xanet Pailet: absolute reality that it is very, very hard to reclaim that
Xanet Pailet: new relationship energy in the context of
Xanet Pailet: a long term relationship because it's very, very specific
Xanet Pailet: to that period of time when you first meet somebody. Those first six
Xanet Pailet: to 18 months. Right. And the dopamine hormones are just surging
Xanet Pailet: through your body, which is basically just mother Nature's, you
Xanet Pailet: know, imprint on, want you to procreate. Really what's happening, Right.
Xanet Pailet: Even if you're 50 or 60 years old, it doesn't matter. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: you're going at it like bunnies. You're going at it like bunnies, right? Exactly. Because
Xanet Pailet: of that new relationship energy. And that new relationship energy
Xanet Pailet: naturally fades after 18 months at the most. Right.
Xanet Pailet: Couples that have been able to maintain that level of
Xanet Pailet: connection that I've seen and, and worked with
Xanet Pailet: or have talked to have experienced are really couples who
Xanet Pailet: make it a priority,
Xanet Pailet: understand that they need to change things up in their relationship. Like, they
Xanet Pailet: can't do the same thing over and over again. They need to be
Xanet Pailet: curious, they need to explore, they need to try new things.
Xanet Pailet: They, you know, and, and not just in their sex life, by the way.
Xanet Pailet: Right. Like in other aspects of their life. Like, we do have research that
Xanet Pailet: shows it's fascinating, which, but it shows that couples that
Xanet Pailet: do a lot of different interesting things all the time, like, oh, one day we're
Xanet Pailet: going to go to the museum and the next day we're going to take a
Xanet Pailet: cooking class and, you know, whatever, have a better sex.
Xanet Pailet: Because they're more, you know, they're more focused
Xanet Pailet: on doing new things and changing things up. And just doing those things
Xanet Pailet: makes it more exciting and interesting to be with your partner because
Xanet Pailet: you're experiencing new things with them all their time. And you get to look at
Xanet Pailet: them and you're like, oh, look at you. Like you're cooking in the kitchen. I've
Xanet Pailet: never seen you do pastry before. Right. And you kind of fall in love with
Xanet Pailet: them again. So, you know, that is one of the, that's one of
Xanet Pailet: the, that's one of the things that I've really learned
Xanet Pailet: is how important it Is in the context of a long term
Xanet Pailet: relationship, to find time outside of the bedroom to do new, fun
Xanet Pailet: and interesting things with your partner, to be explored, to adventurous, to
Xanet Pailet: try new things. Because it does keep that energy going and then
Xanet Pailet: that can flow over to the bedroom as well. Again, you're talking about things that
Joanne Lockwood: are flowing through my head. It must be very. One of the
Joanne Lockwood: challenges must be trying to synchronise your libido. Where
Joanne Lockwood: I'm coming to bed late or I'm going to bed early, you're going to bed
Joanne Lockwood: late, you want to read your book, I want to finish watching the telepathy. Just
Joanne Lockwood: finish off some work and you say, I'll do the washing up, take the dog
Joanne Lockwood: out and you just go, yeah. Or if one person is feeling a bit horny
Joanne Lockwood: earlier and the other person's in this other zone, it's trying to synchronise those
Joanne Lockwood: libido moments, isn't it? Yeah. And you know, and that
Xanet Pailet: is often a challenge in long term relationships.
Xanet Pailet: You know, I hear that all the time. I'm a morning person, he's a night
Xanet Pailet: person or she's a night person.
Xanet Pailet: And then that is a challenge. Right. But it is,
Xanet Pailet: it is all the answer to that is
Xanet Pailet: communication. The answer to everything is communication. Can we find a
Xanet Pailet: compromise? Can we figure out a time, can we put something on the calendar,
Xanet Pailet: you know, at a time of day that actually works for both
Xanet Pailet: of us? Can we be very conscious around our
Xanet Pailet: desire to have sexy time or to have sex that night or
Xanet Pailet: that morning or whatever? And I know that people are like, oh, planning. It
Xanet Pailet: is like, it takes the spontaneity out, but it's like, you know,
Xanet Pailet: yeah, the spontaneity has to come out at times. Right.
Xanet Pailet: Planning it actually allows your brain, which is our biggest
Xanet Pailet: organ during sex, to be able to start to get on board.
Xanet Pailet: Yeah, we have, you know, sexy time plan for
Xanet Pailet: tonight. Let me start thinking about that. What do I want to do? What do
Xanet Pailet: I want my body to feel like? You know, maybe for, for some people
Xanet Pailet: it's like, oh, maybe I need to masturbate a little bit before. Right.
Xanet Pailet: Like really thinking about what your body needs to start to
Xanet Pailet: do, what you can do inside of you to, you know,
Xanet Pailet: pull up some of your desire. But that
Xanet Pailet: does take commitment and it takes a level of
Xanet Pailet: consciousness and awareness of what your arousal pathway
Xanet Pailet: is and really making sex a priority in the
Xanet Pailet: relationship. And that is a huge, huge difference. When
Xanet Pailet: couples make sex a priority in their relationship, then they start
Xanet Pailet: having a lot more enjoyable sex. If you're having an affair
Joanne Lockwood: and you're having to sneak around and do things, then
Joanne Lockwood: it's often not spontaneous anyway, because what you're thinking is, oh, I've got to book
Joanne Lockwood: a hotel room, I've got to sneak out the house, I've got to make all
Joanne Lockwood: this cover storey. It's surreptitious. Sex isn't just. Isn't
Joanne Lockwood: often spontaneous. Maybe if you're picking something or hooking up at a bar, maybe it
Joanne Lockwood: is. But once you get into. Into week two, you're now
Joanne Lockwood: sneaking around. You're totally planning as. You're totally planning as
Xanet Pailet: well. But I think the difference is that for some people, the risk
Xanet Pailet: is sexy. Right. For a lot of people, like the,
Xanet Pailet: you know, there's something about. It's like, I might get caught. Right. Like there's.
Xanet Pailet: There's some sort of erotic charge potentially under, you
Xanet Pailet: know, underneath that. For some people, that's part of, you know,
Xanet Pailet: what turns them on is being in a risky situation. Right. Which
Xanet Pailet: you can totally translate to your partner. Right. Well, if, if, if
Xanet Pailet: in fact, you know, being in a little bit of a risky situation is part
Xanet Pailet: of my turn on. Well, what if, like, you
Xanet Pailet: know, we try to have sex in an elevator or, you know, we go out
Xanet Pailet: to dinner and I put my hand under her skirt or
Xanet Pailet: whatever? Right. Like, there are ways to do that. In the context
Xanet Pailet: of the relationship, it's understanding what your turn on is
Xanet Pailet: that actually allows that to happen. Yeah. No, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: with you. In my relationships over the years, I've definitely
Joanne Lockwood: tickled those boxes. You know, there are. There are other opportunities. And when you. When
Joanne Lockwood: we broaden that definition of what sex means, and it's not just that
Joanne Lockwood: final getting down and dirty and that. Yeah, that groaning and
Joanne Lockwood: grunting at the end. It's. It's all the things that go into that. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's. Sometimes it's just touch, sometimes it's just connection
Joanne Lockwood: being there. My wife and I, we often flirt a bit. We do a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of stately homes, we go and visit a lot of old properties in the UK
Joanne Lockwood: and sometimes we work out that when we're walking around these big old homes and
Joanne Lockwood: we're the only person in the room or we're. There's a big door, we sort
Joanne Lockwood: of sneak behind the door and sort of go a bit of a. Bit of
Joanne Lockwood: a cuddle or a bit of a Bit of a bum pinch or something and
Joanne Lockwood: go, no one saw that. Yeah. So we do a bit of that. I love
Xanet Pailet: that. Yeah. You could take the opportunities wherever you Are. And
Joanne Lockwood: just even if we go to the cinema and sit there and
Joanne Lockwood: some popcorn. Yes, for sure.
Xanet Pailet: I love to hear that. Right. And I think that is one of the
Xanet Pailet: pieces that we, we miss in, in the long term
Xanet Pailet: relationship is the flirting. When you first met, there was probably a lot of
Xanet Pailet: flirting happening, right? But again, that's something that kind of
Xanet Pailet: goes away. Because what is flirting? It's like, you know, you're trying to
Xanet Pailet: get somebody's attention, right? You're supposed to
Xanet Pailet: show yourself off, whatever it is. But when you're in a long term
Xanet Pailet: relationship, you don't need to have that person's attention. You've got that attention 24
Xanet Pailet: 7. Right. You know, remembering
Xanet Pailet: how much fun it was to flirt with your partner is important.
Xanet Pailet: Right. And again, that's part of building up,
Xanet Pailet: building up the desire and recognising that
Xanet Pailet: you've got to keep things like fresh and interesting and show your
Xanet Pailet: partner that you still think that they're attractive and sexy and that you want to,
Xanet Pailet: you know, be with them. Yeah, my wife does it to me and I do
Joanne Lockwood: it to her from time to time where she'll say, why don't you have your
Joanne Lockwood: hair down today because you look much better with your hair down. Or how about
Joanne Lockwood: wearing that dress? I haven't seen you wear that dress for ages. Or come on,
Joanne Lockwood: don't wear your jeans again. Put something nice on or put a bit of makeup
Joanne Lockwood: on. I go, okay. And it's really nice to know that she cares, she's
Joanne Lockwood: thinking about it and she wants to see me in a different light rather than,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, I can dress up a bit. Come on
Joanne Lockwood: then. Yeah, you too, go on this. It's both a bit posh.
Joanne Lockwood: We're only going shopping, but why not? Why can't we posh up for a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of shopping, have a bit of fun or go to dinner or something?
Joanne Lockwood: So those are little ways of just showing your
Joanne Lockwood: partner the person you're intimate with, that
Joanne Lockwood: you're thinking about them in that way as well, right? Absolutely. And
Xanet Pailet: I think that is important because what you're bringing up
Xanet Pailet: is we all want to feel desired. That is
Xanet Pailet: super important. And when your partner tells you, oh,
Xanet Pailet: I love when you have that dress on or put your sexy underwear on,
Xanet Pailet: you know that there's some desire there, right. And that they're thinking about you and
Xanet Pailet: paying attention to you. So that is, you know, an important piece
Xanet Pailet: of maintaining a good sex life is showing
Xanet Pailet: for each partner to show each other that they still desire that.
Xanet Pailet: Right. Whether that's physical touch, whether it's using
Xanet Pailet: words, whether it's sending a sexy text or whether it's
Xanet Pailet: telling your partner to, you know, not wear panties. Night. Right. All
Xanet Pailet: of that is showing desire. Bit wet and windy at the moment.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd probably be safe. Safe with them on
Joanne Lockwood: some pantyhose as well. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Presumably. I'm guessing here,
Joanne Lockwood: give me if I'm wrong, that you tend to get involved with couples who
Joanne Lockwood: already have a desire to have a conversation. People
Joanne Lockwood: who don't want to have a conversation probably don't get in contact with you. You're
Joanne Lockwood: already seeing people who want to. I guess the key thing
Joanne Lockwood: to start this off is are we both agreed that we want to
Joanne Lockwood: do something positive about this? Because if we can't agree on
Joanne Lockwood: that statement, there's no point in carrying on, is there? We might as well just
Joanne Lockwood: say, I never want sex again with you. I don't want sex again with you.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe that's the honest conversation. Maybe. Maybe that's the point where we say, actually we
Joanne Lockwood: either go into an open relationship or we part company
Joanne Lockwood: or we put up with that. Yeah, no, I think that's true. I mean, you
Xanet Pailet: know, couples who reach out to me are often at the end
Xanet Pailet: of their rope. Right. They're at a crossroads. You know, they're like,
Xanet Pailet: if we can't solve this, you know, we've been to therapists, we've been to
Xanet Pailet: sex therapists, but you're kind of. Janet, you're our last resort. If we can't.
Xanet Pailet: If we can't solve this, then either we're going to open the relationship up, which
Xanet Pailet: is not generally, just in general, not who I see
Xanet Pailet: sometimes, occasionally. Or it's more like we're going to go our separate ways.
Xanet Pailet: Right. But they both have to be on the same wave wavelength. Right.
Xanet Pailet: They both have to want to change. They both have to want to work on
Xanet Pailet: this. Otherwise nothing's. Nothing's going to happen. Right.
Xanet Pailet: But, you know, I mean, I think that a lot of couples,
Xanet Pailet: for a variety of different reasons. Right. Believe that marriage is
Xanet Pailet: sacrosanct and they are committed
Xanet Pailet: to trying to fix their relationship.
Xanet Pailet: Certainly those are people who tend to show up in.
Xanet Pailet: In my office. Right. And
Xanet Pailet: they're, you know, they'll do anything. Right. You know, especially
Xanet Pailet: if there are children involved and. And they feel like it's still
Xanet Pailet: fixable. Sometimes it's not. Right, Jo? Sometimes it's like you've gotten to a
Xanet Pailet: point where the relationship is so toxic that the best thing to do is to
Xanet Pailet: separate. And I'm very honest with people. If that's where we're at. But, but
Xanet Pailet: for a lot of, a lot of people who, you know, have children
Xanet Pailet: in the picture and they, they're still like friends,
Xanet Pailet: right? If they're still friends, but they're not lovers anymore,
Xanet Pailet: there's a lot that can be done there, right? If they hate
Xanet Pailet: each other, that's a lot harder to work through.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, well, I suppose you don't have to like someone to have sex with someone,
Joanne Lockwood: do you? You don't have to, is that what you said? Yeah. You
Joanne Lockwood: don't have to. Oh, you don't? You don't. But
Xanet Pailet: typically, if there's a lot of fighting going on
Xanet Pailet: and it's a couple that has a
Xanet Pailet: tremendous amount of high distress, couples is what we call them.
Xanet Pailet: They are not having sex because they are. One
Xanet Pailet: or both of them is feeling emotionally shut down. They're resentful, they're
Xanet Pailet: angry. They have no desire to be
Xanet Pailet: able to open themselves up to their partner and do anything for their partner that
Xanet Pailet: feels good. So I mean, it is highly unusual that a
Xanet Pailet: distressed couple is having a very active sex life. You're more likely to want to
Joanne Lockwood: put deadly nightshade into coffee, aren't you? I suppose at that point, right? Something like
Xanet Pailet: that. It's more likely that's gonna happen. That would spice it up a bit. Yeah,
Xanet Pailet: that would spice it. But I do wanna bring up
Xanet Pailet: a point. Cause I think it's an important point, right? You didn't ask the question,
Xanet Pailet: but I'm gonna answer it. So I
Xanet Pailet: think one of the places where couples really struggle
Xanet Pailet: is how do they know things aren't going right? Like,
Xanet Pailet: we're very well aware that things aren't going right. How do we start
Xanet Pailet: to have a conversation about this without
Xanet Pailet: opening up Pandora's box, right? Which people
Xanet Pailet: are very, very afraid of. Like if I open up Pandora's box, I
Xanet Pailet: can't put all this back in. How do we have a conversation about it without
Xanet Pailet: there being shame, without there being blame, without there being guilt,
Xanet Pailet: without me chasing my partner to the point that they're going to have an affair?
Xanet Pailet: And that I think is a really critical question that I
Xanet Pailet: look at a lot. And so I want to make a suggestion
Xanet Pailet: because I've actually tried to figure out how do I help couples get over
Xanet Pailet: that first step? Because once they get over that first step, then the conversation
Xanet Pailet: can open up and change can start to happen.
Xanet Pailet: So I have, I created a,
Xanet Pailet: an intimacy equation quiz which allows
Xanet Pailet: couples. I think we might have talked about this in our pre call, which allows
Xanet Pailet: couples to be able to identify what their intimacy
Xanet Pailet: type is. It's kind of like a personality test. But
Xanet Pailet: there's a lot of different intimacy types, which is important to
Xanet Pailet: understand. How do you communicate with your partner? Right. Some people
Xanet Pailet: are much more emotionally focused. Some people are more sensually, like
Xanet Pailet: touch focused. Some people are more adventuresome. For some couples, trust
Xanet Pailet: and loyalty is really important. And so what I always recommend,
Xanet Pailet: and I'll say this to all of your listeners, is like to take this test,
Xanet Pailet: right. If you're the person who's like, oh, things are not going okay, but I
Xanet Pailet: don't know how to have this conversation with my partner. Right. So
Xanet Pailet: take this test. You can find it at my website, which is how to
Xanet Pailet: improve how to improve my love life. Com. It's like a three minute test. It's
Xanet Pailet: kind of cute. You'll get your results and you'll. Then you'll get some information
Xanet Pailet: about, you know, well, how do you interact? If this is your style, how do
Xanet Pailet: you interact with other styles? What are that, are the, you know, things
Xanet Pailet: that you need to be concerned about? Where do you work well together,
Xanet Pailet: have to be a little bit more aware and then go to your
Xanet Pailet: partner and say, like, hey, you know, I just took this kind of
Xanet Pailet: interesting quiz, this interesting test about like, what my
Xanet Pailet: intimacy style is. And it's, you know, X, Y and Z. And I'm kind
Xanet Pailet: of curious, like, what is yours? Would you want to take this test?
Xanet Pailet: Right. And then ideally that starts a
Xanet Pailet: conversation in sort of in a way that
Xanet Pailet: is not very threatening to either partner.
Xanet Pailet: Right. And I do think that's really important, an important
Xanet Pailet: tool for couples to have an awareness about, like,
Xanet Pailet: how do we start this without one of us saying we've got to go find
Xanet Pailet: a sex therapist? That can be very scary and off
Xanet Pailet: putting to a partner who is not on
Xanet Pailet: board? Right. But something like this allows
Xanet Pailet: things to happen at a lower, slower kind of pace.
Xanet Pailet: It just starts about curiosity and conversation. Yeah. Because I
Joanne Lockwood: would imagine that first step, there's
Joanne Lockwood: potentially blame in there. There's potentially a why. If I ask
Joanne Lockwood: you why you don't want to do this. I do.
Joanne Lockwood: You don't. Right. Because the why opens, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, opens this Pandora's box totally. Suddenly all this stuff comes back
Joanne Lockwood: where you don't do this and you don't do that. And it's so it's a.
Xanet Pailet: And it's scary then into a whole. New territory, aren't we? Right. And it's.
Xanet Pailet: For a lot of people, it's terrifying because I don't know what that answer is
Xanet Pailet: going to be. And I don't know what the consequences are going to be. What's
Xanet Pailet: the repercussions if we start having this conversation? Are we going to end up divorcing
Xanet Pailet: or is one of us going to go have an affair? Right. Which is
Xanet Pailet: why, like having this, this quiz, this tool, to be able to
Xanet Pailet: have a gentle conversation from coming from a place
Xanet Pailet: of curiosity rather than blame
Xanet Pailet: is so important. To be able to
Xanet Pailet: start to fix things, if you will. Yeah, I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: good. As you say, it's more like a magazine quiz and that you sit there
Joanne Lockwood: and you take a tick back pages and go, oh look, my sex style is
Joanne Lockwood: this. It might just be that you both sit there and look at each other
Joanne Lockwood: and go, well, neither of us like initiating. We both want to have the other
Joanne Lockwood: person initiate. And because neither of us do, we wait for the other one. It
Joanne Lockwood: never ever happens. You get to the point where you've got your couples or throuples.
Joanne Lockwood: Presumably you work with a multitude of people here. Yeah, I've
Xanet Pailet: never worked with a throuple as a. I'd love to, but I never
Xanet Pailet: have. I've got a couple of friends who are in throuple relationships and
Joanne Lockwood: I've never got any further than just going, okay, if it works for you. I've
Joanne Lockwood: never, never, never really done a Q and A about it. But yeah, it's. I
Joanne Lockwood: guess in those dynamics that means you've got
Joanne Lockwood: either more outlets to have different sort of relationship and it doesn't. They're
Joanne Lockwood: not necessarily orgies, are they throuples? They could be one to one relationships within a
Joanne Lockwood: certain couple. I think if you're in a throuple. Right. You know, by,
Xanet Pailet: by definition you are probably in a place
Xanet Pailet: where there's a lot of good communication happening around your
Xanet Pailet: sex life because you wouldn't be there, you couldn't be there if that wasn't happening.
Xanet Pailet: Right. Like that is, you know, one of the strengths of the
Xanet Pailet: poly open relationship community is people tend to have very, very good
Xanet Pailet: communication skills and they're very transparent about what's
Xanet Pailet: happening. Which is why, you know, I wouldn't expect to see a throuple
Xanet Pailet: necessarily show up in my office for what I work on.
Xanet Pailet: I could see them throwing. Showing up in other offices. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I was just also just thinking there that I would imagine that there are some
Joanne Lockwood: people who have a fantasy or a desire
Joanne Lockwood: that they feel is too much,
Joanne Lockwood: either embarrassed to share it or that they think it would.
Joanne Lockwood: We talked about in the beginning, shame, all these sort of things going On. If
Joanne Lockwood: I say this would turn me on, they're scared the other person might go, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: wow, that's a bit. Not sure about that. Oh, it sounds a bit icky to
Joanne Lockwood: me. But that's really where their head is. You know, they went through the mechanical
Joanne Lockwood: stuff when they were having children. And, you know, you have to do one
Joanne Lockwood: of these and one of these and one of these to get. To get children.
Joanne Lockwood: But when you're after that, you think, actually, what I really desire is this,
Joanne Lockwood: but I don't know how to approach that. Does your intimacy
Joanne Lockwood: survey allow that to come out, or is that still a. That's not. Like,
Xanet Pailet: that would not be in this particular quiz.
Xanet Pailet: Because I think that would be, you know, I mean, for me, from
Xanet Pailet: where I'm at, I think that would cause a lot of potential
Xanet Pailet: conflict in a couple, and then there's nobody there to help facilitate
Xanet Pailet: that conflict. Right. And so I don't want to set people up
Xanet Pailet: where they have to, you know, go find a therapist, because
Xanet Pailet: all of a sudden they're fighting because, you. Know, these boxes that said, but it
Joanne Lockwood: has a fantasy. Yes, yes. Right. I mean, maybe that would be a better business
Xanet Pailet: model, but that's not how I. But I will say that that happens.
Xanet Pailet: That shows up all the time. In fact, we always talk about that.
Xanet Pailet: I probe about that. We explore that in my
Xanet Pailet: work that I do with couples, because very often,
Xanet Pailet: that is one of the pieces where there is a lot of shame.
Xanet Pailet: And 99% of the time, like,
Xanet Pailet: at least what the fantasy that they have is nothing crazy, right?
Xanet Pailet: But they've just, like, are so afraid that their partner thinks that they're
Xanet Pailet: gonna be too big or too much or too we. And that all just comes
Xanet Pailet: from, like, you know, a shame. For me, that just comes from,
Xanet Pailet: like, a shame place. Right? But I really do help couples
Xanet Pailet: be able to be in a place where they can explore that with each other
Xanet Pailet: and have a conversation about it. And underneath the
Xanet Pailet: fantasy is really what we call the core desires, which are the
Xanet Pailet: emotions that you want to have when you're having sex. So what is it that's
Xanet Pailet: actually turning you on within that fantasy and
Xanet Pailet: understanding what that emotion is? Whatever it is, right.
Xanet Pailet: Then if you can't have that, if you can't accomplish that in. In
Xanet Pailet: that particular fantasy, because maybe it's a boundary for your partner, how
Xanet Pailet: else can you get that emotion met
Xanet Pailet: in your sex life? That's very important. That is like, the difference
Xanet Pailet: between sex is only okay or it's good to sex is
Xanet Pailet: amazing. And I want to Keep on having it. Because that emotional need of mine,
Xanet Pailet: which goes back to a core wound as a child, is actually being
Xanet Pailet: met and satisfied. And that is the basis of that
Xanet Pailet: turn on and that fantasy. So I really help
Xanet Pailet: couples, you know, I take them through some exercises and processes and
Xanet Pailet: conversations where we really pull that apart and really understand
Xanet Pailet: what's underneath and then how they can help each other meet
Xanet Pailet: that need, that emotional need during sex. Very
Xanet Pailet: powerful. So not every fantasy needs to manifest itself in
Joanne Lockwood: reality, does it? Absolutely true. You could keep the fantasy
Joanne Lockwood: as a sexting or a flirting or a sort of like, like
Joanne Lockwood: all that tension. You hint, you go, well, we're gonna be doing this. Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: But the actual reality is it never gets to that point. You then break and
Joanne Lockwood: go vanilla if you like or whatever it may be. Yeah, I mean some fantasies
Xanet Pailet: are better. Leftist fantasies. Like I've had that experience, you
Xanet Pailet: know, of like a fantasy that I thought I wanted and then we started doing
Xanet Pailet: it and I freaked out and I was like, yep, nope, that's not gonna work.
Xanet Pailet: That was all better left as a fantasy. Right. And that's okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Sexy movies is perfect, isn't it? It's, it all always works out.
Joanne Lockwood: The coupling happens easily. There's no kind of.
Xanet Pailet: And then there's fireworks. I'll be back. Fireworks every single time.
Xanet Pailet: Everybody has an orgasm simultaneously. So unrealistic.
Joanne Lockwood: I know, I know. But yeah, so, so, so sometimes fantasies are better off just
Xanet Pailet: kept as fantasies. You could use it for your own turn on, for masturbating.
Xanet Pailet: Some people go into fantasy during sex. Like that's helpful for them.
Xanet Pailet: And if, if they do, I'm like, okay, that's fine. Like whatever you need to
Xanet Pailet: get you there is completely appropriate
Xanet Pailet: and acceptable. Right. So fantasy isn't cheating then?
Xanet Pailet: Not in my mind at all. But some people do feel that's cheating.
Xanet Pailet: That is one of the issues that will come up
Xanet Pailet: on a not infrequent basis. Like if I have a fantasy, it
Xanet Pailet: feels like I'm cheating. And so it's my job to say, yeah, no, like
Xanet Pailet: no fantasies turn ons. This is you soothing your childhood wounds. Let's really
Xanet Pailet: talk about this. Let's understand where this is coming from and why
Xanet Pailet: this is a turn on for you and for your partner to understand that as
Xanet Pailet: well. But you know, I, I don't see that as
Xanet Pailet: cheating at all. No, but I'm very open, I'm very sex positive.
Xanet Pailet: Like I have no judgement. Right. I mean, you know, you come into my office,
Xanet Pailet: you talk to me, you read my book, it's A judgement free zone, like a
Xanet Pailet: hundred percent. It is. You know, I don't judge anybody for
Xanet Pailet: what their desires are, whatever it is. Yeah, no,
Joanne Lockwood: I can imagine. If you're, you're using some sort of
Joanne Lockwood: porn in your masturbation routine, then by
Joanne Lockwood: definition that is not the part. Unless your partner's giving you the porn to
Joanne Lockwood: look at or to experience, it's generally somebody else in those images,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it may be. So if you can rationalise that as not cheating,
Joanne Lockwood: then that's not cheating. But yeah, at the point you're being intimate, if you're
Joanne Lockwood: imagining the person you're being intimate with is actually somebody else, then that, that's where
Joanne Lockwood: it becomes a bit confusing, I guess. I think, you know, again, that's, you know,
Xanet Pailet: depending on where you are in your relationship and where you are
Xanet Pailet: in your level of communication. Do you want to
Xanet Pailet: share that? Not everything has to be shared either. I'm very clear. I'm very clear
Xanet Pailet: with people like, you know, you get to hold on to your own stuff.
Xanet Pailet: Right. And you don't have to share everything with your
Xanet Pailet: partner if it doesn't feel. I mean, I feel like the more disclosure you
Xanet Pailet: have, the more connected you'll feel with your partner.
Xanet Pailet: But not everything has to be disclosed around, around
Xanet Pailet: fantasies. Is it, is it pretty evenly balanced between
Joanne Lockwood: genders of couples where it's generally it's
Joanne Lockwood: either the male or the female. We're talking about heteronormative relationships here
Joanne Lockwood: where typically both of them have an
Joanne Lockwood: issue or is it often one sided? Is it
Joanne Lockwood: after childbirth? Is it stress? We seem to have
Joanne Lockwood: lost Janae, so I'm going to hang on here in case she comes back.
Joanne Lockwood: Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. You'll reappear and we'll carry on
Joanne Lockwood: where we were. That was weird. Yeah. You're back.
Xanet Pailet: Okay. Is that gonna. Because you gotta, you gotta go. So should we
Joanne Lockwood: just. I do get, get to the close. Yes. Do you wanna,
Joanne Lockwood: do you wanna give me like a final
Joanne Lockwood: takeaway? Yeah, things, Things to think about and then
Joanne Lockwood: I'll, I'll go. So who are you? How do people get hold of you? Okay,
Xanet Pailet: great. I'll. Thank you. And. Yeah. How's that? Yeah, I think, you know,
Xanet Pailet: at the end of the day, what, what
Xanet Pailet: underlies all of having more intimacy
Xanet Pailet: and, and, and more connection with your partner is
Xanet Pailet: first good communication. And though we didn't really talk about this
Xanet Pailet: much emotional safety, which is a huge reason
Xanet Pailet: why couples are feeling disconnected and are not having sex
Xanet Pailet: and don't feel like they can actually have a real conversation with each
Xanet Pailet: Other because what they say might be used against them or
Xanet Pailet: weaponized and they've been shut down before. Right. Or
Xanet Pailet: criticised. Like there's a million defence coping mechanisms that people
Xanet Pailet: use. But those are the two most important to me. Those are the
Xanet Pailet: foundational elements that and I focus on in my
Xanet Pailet: coaching and my book around being able to create
Xanet Pailet: more intimacy in a long term relationship. Tonight is
Joanne Lockwood: been absolutely fascinating. I we could talk all day and I was in danger
Joanne Lockwood: of sharing too much of my own love. As we were going through that I
Joanne Lockwood: thought well I better not say that but let's not say that. Let me save
Joanne Lockwood: that for my own. But no, it's been absolutely fascinating. It's been really great. How
Joanne Lockwood: do people get ahold of you and find out more? Yeah. So the best way
Xanet Pailet: to get hold of me to find out of my book is called the Sex
Xanet Pailet: and Intimacy Repair Kit and you can pre order it on
Xanet Pailet: Amazon and Jo will have the link
Xanet Pailet: in the show notes. But the best way to get a hold of me and
Xanet Pailet: find out about my programmes that I offer in my book is to go to
Xanet Pailet: this website, howtoimprovemylovelife.com how to
Xanet Pailet: improve my lovelife.com where you will also find the quiz
Xanet Pailet: and then you'll get lots of information on also how to connect with
Xanet Pailet: me. Brilliant, brilliant. How to improvebylovelife.com that'll be in the show notes and
Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to go and cheque it out in a minute and I think if
Joanne Lockwood: you listen to this you should too and find that quiz because even if you're
Joanne Lockwood: not having trouble with new relationship, you might find something in the quiz that will
Joanne Lockwood: spark something new and keep it, keep it, keep the juices flowing for
Joanne Lockwood: longer as they say. We love that. Xanet, thank you so much. Thanks
Xanet Pailet: Jo. As we bring this conversation to
Joanne Lockwood: a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to
Joanne Lockwood: you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.