Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 209 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title Inclusion that actually Sticks.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Susan Drumm.
Joanne Lockwood: Susan is a leadership advisor and coach who helps organisations
Joanne Lockwood: turn diversity into everyday performance by
Joanne Lockwood: embedding inclusive habits that build trust, voice equity
Joanne Lockwood: and that lead to better decisions. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Susan to describe her superpower, she said that it is spotting the
Joanne Lockwood: invisible patterns that quietly run teams and
Joanne Lockwood: translating complex neuroscience into simple,
Joanne Lockwood: repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective
Joanne Lockwood: and make space for every voice. Hello, Susan,
Joanne Lockwood: welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure. We were just chatting away there in the green room before we pushed
Joanne Lockwood: the record button and I think you said you're in Arizona, is that
Joanne Lockwood: right? That's right, yes. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona
Susan Drumm: and it's at the time that we're taping in the. We
Susan Drumm: like to say we have eight months of heaven for four months of hell
Susan Drumm: when it comes to our art. Yeah, so you are. It's got cold
Joanne Lockwood: snaps as well. Like right now. It is truly heaven.
Susan Drumm: It's, you know, I'm trying to think celsius, but about 70 degrees
Susan Drumm: Fahrenheit. And so just beautiful, beautiful
Susan Drumm: spectacular weather at the end of January where the rest of the
Susan Drumm: country seems to be in a freeze over, but then we pay a price
Susan Drumm: in the summer where it gets blasted hot. And although
Susan Drumm: I. The idea is if you have the flexibility like I do to
Susan Drumm: leave during those months, then you're best to depart during
Susan Drumm: those four months of intense heat.
Joanne Lockwood: Dusk. Yes, yes. And we can have storms that run
Susan Drumm: through around that time as well, you know, very heavy
Susan Drumm: rains and then it would be dry. So. Yeah,
Susan Drumm: called the monsoons. Yeah,
Susan Drumm: I really Enjoy it here because I think I'm.
Susan Drumm: I lived in the northeast most of my life, the first
Susan Drumm: portion. And it was.
Susan Drumm: I just don't do well with living in winter. Very. And I
Susan Drumm: did also, by the way, live in London for two years. Love that.
Susan Drumm: But I'm addicted to the sun. It just makes me happy. I want
Susan Drumm: to be in a place where the sun is shining every day. And sometimes people
Susan Drumm: say, well, don't you miss the change of seasons? And I was like, no.
Susan Drumm: If I want to go be in snow, I'll go book a
Susan Drumm: holiday for five days, you know, in a ski resort and get some of that
Susan Drumm: and then leave. Pop up to Aspen. There's plenty of places with mountains and
Joanne Lockwood: things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice. If you can live
Susan Drumm: in two places, it's ideal because you'll get such incredible
Susan Drumm: weather whenever, when everywhere else doesn't seem that way
Susan Drumm: and then go off when it's, you know, more
Susan Drumm: inhospitable. Yes, yes,
Susan Drumm: yes. Well, I think as human beings, we think we're
Susan Drumm: chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we
Susan Drumm: can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where we
Susan Drumm: point our focus of attention, that's what we see.
Susan Drumm: And we get very good. We usually develop patterns
Susan Drumm: about what we want to look at and that becomes a bit of a
Susan Drumm: superpower because we get so good at looking that direction and studying that and
Susan Drumm: understanding that. But there's something behind our head we can't see,
Susan Drumm: and that's our blind spot. In some of the models I use,
Susan Drumm: they very clearly show where your superpower lies,
Susan Drumm: but where you kind of maybe have a liability you're not as familiar with.
Susan Drumm: And I, I like to use models that are more
Susan Drumm: inclusive in general that show that there's someone else looking
Susan Drumm: in that direction by their very nature because of what they
Susan Drumm: pay attention to. And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue,
Susan Drumm: it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts to
Susan Drumm: show why that's the case and how actually
Susan Drumm: they're your best friend in terms of growth because they're
Susan Drumm: looking into the area where you may not see what's possible.
Susan Drumm: And so I think when you talked about the
Susan Drumm: superpower is for me to really
Susan Drumm: help people see their patterns and self imposed limits
Susan Drumm: that are inherent in who we are and start to
Susan Drumm: widen that gap to shift their perspective so that new
Susan Drumm: opportunities for growth, for success
Susan Drumm: become available to them. Yeah. And.
Susan Drumm: For sure it definitely Starts to take this, you
Susan Drumm: know, for some, more rigid than others. Right. It's like slowly
Susan Drumm: chipping away at what people believe is possible.
Susan Drumm: Exactly. And you can, even more powerfully, if you
Susan Drumm: can, build the team that's accounting for your blind
Susan Drumm: spots and recognise that the person that triggers
Susan Drumm: you is probably the person that you have the most growth
Susan Drumm: to learn from. There's something there. And so that's why I
Susan Drumm: help people see the map of that and they can start to see how
Susan Drumm: this person actually can be beneficial to what they're trying to
Susan Drumm: accomplish in the world. Yes. That alternate. If you're not careful,
Joanne Lockwood: you grip. Yes. Because you're worried about all these things. Yes.
Susan Drumm: Yes. And it's almost. My sense is there's. I
Susan Drumm: mean, there's even more gripping to the belief, but
Susan Drumm: anything you resist, you give it power and you give it more
Susan Drumm: power. So I don't think our answer is sort of
Susan Drumm: more resistance. I don't see how that's been working out for
Susan Drumm: us. It's sort of the. I feel like the answer is
Susan Drumm: curiosity and like, let me. Let me understand that
Susan Drumm: perspective and let me look from that. And what
Susan Drumm: aspect of this could I incorporate or what gift could
Susan Drumm: I give because of my superpower, looking in the other way? And it starts
Susan Drumm: to. I think the only way you get there is for people to
Susan Drumm: start to recognise where that blind spot is, that they have it
Susan Drumm: and where it is, and recognise that
Susan Drumm: the gift that you bring to someone else is looking in their blind spot, but
Susan Drumm: they also look into yours. Yeah, I think, because,
Susan Drumm: you know, anytime I hear, like, that's the way it is, like,
Susan Drumm: I want to be like, is it. Is it the way it is? Um,
Susan Drumm: and I. And I would say we can, if we approach
Susan Drumm: it with curiosity, on different perspectives they get.
Joanne Lockwood: One challenges them to. Without. Right, right. And
Susan Drumm: a lot of it is we're not really trained with language.
Susan Drumm: Even that's inclusive. Like, you know, you can say,
Susan Drumm: that's really interesting. Here's how I've looked at it before. What do
Susan Drumm: you think of that perspective? Right. That's very. Inv.
Susan Drumm: Language versus. Yeah, but what about X, Y, Z? Right.
Susan Drumm: And that's what it's like. The energy of that exchange.
Susan Drumm: Then we'll have. Like I said, you bring resistance. The other person
Susan Drumm: gets more resistant in their point of view and then that's when you
Susan Drumm: start to have the breakdown. Yeah. You entrench in your. In your opposites,
Joanne Lockwood: don't you? Right. Yes. Gosh, it's. It's. This is
Susan Drumm: the work of our times. Right. Now, you know, and
Susan Drumm: so there's different ways to go about it. I mean, sometimes picking the most
Susan Drumm: divisive conversations are probably not the place to start.
Susan Drumm: Like, I think we need to build skillset in having easier
Susan Drumm: conversations first and opening our aperture,
Susan Drumm: then work up to the more difficult ones. And so when I think
Susan Drumm: about teams, when teams are working together, starting to
Susan Drumm: learn, like what. Why that person is always throwing,
Susan Drumm: let's say, a wet blanket or cold water over your idea, what
Susan Drumm: are they actually motivated by? What are they actually looking to do?
Susan Drumm: Because you're interpreting their behaviour through your own
Susan Drumm: motivations and your own type filter, we would say, and
Susan Drumm: getting curious about what they're. You know, we make up
Susan Drumm: reasons for why people do the things they do, but that's based
Susan Drumm: on our own drive of motivation. Right.
Susan Drumm: The transition between how people can become
Susan Drumm: more curious and engage in these types of conversations. Because we get stuck.
Joanne Lockwood: Get stuck in our. In groups. Yeah. There was a
Susan Drumm: wonderful video. I think it was actually
Susan Drumm: designed to be a commercial and I think it was Heineken, believe it
Susan Drumm: or not. And the idea was that you could bring people
Susan Drumm: with very polar views together over
Susan Drumm: a beer to actually get to know each other as humans. And it's a
Susan Drumm: very powerful storey. You can find it on YouTube at. Worlds Apart. Do you know?
Joanne Lockwood: Have you seen this? World's Apart? Yeah, Yeah. I use up my training courses sometimes.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Worlds Apart. Yeah. Very powerful. Yes. So that's. This
Susan Drumm: is exactly what we're talking about. Right. And so kind of coming
Susan Drumm: without the preconceived notions. And what we actually
Susan Drumm: find is we have more in common than we realise. Right. And I think
Susan Drumm: that that storey highlights it really well. Yeah. And the solution is.
Joanne Lockwood: Right, right. Tolerant. Whereas if you're just more likely to
Joanne Lockwood: be. Yeah, yes, it's. And also, if we approach.
Susan Drumm: If we approach the conversation with. I want to get you
Susan Drumm: to understand my point of view, then there's an inherent resistance.
Susan Drumm: Nobody wants to be sort of told what to do. Right.
Joanne Lockwood: Actually, I want. No, but if I just said. Okay, that's. I think that's. I
Joanne Lockwood: think a lot of the things that black.
Susan Drumm: Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that.
Susan Drumm: And so in order to help people
Susan Drumm: understand their patterns, there are a couple different
Susan Drumm: ways we go about that. Two
Susan Drumm: modalities in particular that I've found to be really powerful.
Susan Drumm: One is working with the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Have you
Susan Drumm: ever talked about it on the show? No. Go for it. Okay, great. Danny Graham
Susan Drumm: is a powerful model of the way we use it in
Susan Drumm: our work is that you have. There's nine different types of leadership
Susan Drumm: styles and each have. They're based on
Susan Drumm: what you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower and
Susan Drumm: each have a liability that comes with them. And the model is
Susan Drumm: very powerful because it's a systems model, so,
Susan Drumm: meaning it's showing the interrelationship between the nine different
Susan Drumm: styles and how building high performance teams can
Susan Drumm: happen when you have the right combination or
Susan Drumm: diversity of these cognitive viewpoints, how
Susan Drumm: people think. And so that's a really powerful tool because
Susan Drumm: first of all, people understand their own process
Susan Drumm: of, gosh, yeah, I have developed this superpower to do
Susan Drumm: something this way and this is what I'm motivated to look at. But
Susan Drumm: now I can also see what I don't see behind my head.
Susan Drumm: And you gotta create that opening first, such that then you bring
Susan Drumm: the team together to say, and look at that person, Charlie,
Susan Drumm: who happens to look in that. And I see now
Susan Drumm: why I can't see what they see, but how it could actually
Susan Drumm: benefit me. And that's part of the process and the magic of
Susan Drumm: that understanding and then realising, like, we've got
Susan Drumm: some leadership style types that are not
Susan Drumm: present on the team and we don't even have that
Susan Drumm: representation of the way that person would think or the types of
Susan Drumm: questions they would ask in doing that work. So I think
Susan Drumm: with that type of
Susan Drumm: backdrop, this is where we get teams to be higher
Susan Drumm: functioning. So that it's not to say, okay, you absolutely have to
Susan Drumm: hire for every single, but recognise where the gaps are,
Susan Drumm: that what's present in the team and have someone
Susan Drumm: do their best to sort of play that part. Right. What are the types of
Susan Drumm: questions? Let's say you're missing the loyal sceptic, which is
Susan Drumm: type 6 on your team. Then you don't have that
Susan Drumm: counterbalance. Everything is like full steam ahead, full steam ahead. You don't have that
Susan Drumm: counterbalance to say, here's the potential drawback, how are we going to mitigate for that?
Susan Drumm: So you will need to, with your team, make sure,
Susan Drumm: before you make a head decision, like we're going to take 15 minutes and look
Susan Drumm: at what if this goes wrong, because we don't
Susan Drumm: naturally have that person on the team that does that. But we know
Susan Drumm: we need to take some time to look at that, as hard as it is
Susan Drumm: maybe for the types that are on the team to do so, we've got to
Susan Drumm: do that so that we make better decisions. And what I find is
Susan Drumm: then that the best teams are
Susan Drumm: cognitively diverse teams because they're representing these different
Susan Drumm: perspectives and they're making better decisions as a result. So
Susan Drumm: that's. The Enneagram is one big thing. That's one way to do it. And then
Susan Drumm: some actually do look for, you know, when we make our
Susan Drumm: next hire, let's look for somebody who seems to have that skill set.
Joanne Lockwood: If you haven't got. Yes, that's exactly right.
Susan Drumm: So particularly for teams, that's why I've found the tool to be
Susan Drumm: really powerful. And what's great about the Enneagram is no one owns it. It's
Susan Drumm: an open source model that's been developed, you know, some would say
Susan Drumm: definitely over decades, some would say even centuries. You
Susan Drumm: know, they're actually finding deep connection with
Susan Drumm: neuroscience related to this. So I, I recently
Susan Drumm: was involved in a course called the Neuroscience of Change and
Susan Drumm: they did an entire segment just on the Enneagram and starting to
Susan Drumm: understand how the brain formulates and gets kind of
Susan Drumm: grooved into one of these nine types. And a lot of it,
Susan Drumm: of course has to do with upbringing and what we. Things happen to
Susan Drumm: us. Right. As we socialisation. Yeah, yeah. What
Susan Drumm: we make it mean typically falls into nine different styles.
Susan Drumm: And so that, that was very exciting to me because there's
Susan Drumm: real neuroscience behind looking at
Susan Drumm: the world in this way and, and so, but it also
Susan Drumm: allows people to recognise in themselves
Susan Drumm: that they don't have all the answers. And that's the way you start to get
Susan Drumm: curious about like, well, you know, I don't have all the answers. Let me, let
Susan Drumm: me ask some questions about people who see the world differently. So I,
Susan Drumm: I find it's a powerful model for people to, to start to open
Susan Drumm: up their curiosity. Yes. You know, there's, there's
Susan Drumm: another assessment we use that is looking at your
Susan Drumm: internal experience under conflict or stress
Susan Drumm: and in relationship with another person. And
Susan Drumm: two of the dimensions that it's measuring. One is empathy accuracy.
Susan Drumm: Do I. Am I able to understand
Susan Drumm: what your perspective is? But another dimension is
Susan Drumm: empathy, compassion and do I care? Right.
Susan Drumm: Am I able to understand your perspective and am I actually
Susan Drumm: willing to care about that perspective? And so, wow, what
Susan Drumm: a model for people to start to see. I would say like the
Susan Drumm: psychopath is the one that is very. Understands what you want but does
Susan Drumm: not care. And so these two skill sets, I believe, are going
Susan Drumm: to be absolutely 100% critical the
Susan Drumm: more AI becomes handling anything on
Susan Drumm: the logic side of the equation. The
Susan Drumm: skills that are uniquely human, which are empathy accuracy and
Susan Drumm: empathy compassion, are going to be needed more than ever.
Joanne Lockwood: To whatever it comes out with or challenge it with soul. Yes. Or,
Susan Drumm: you know, it's kind of interesting. I find that it's also
Susan Drumm: baking in trying to be empathetic, but it's
Susan Drumm: inauthentic. So I don't know if you've played around, but it
Susan Drumm: seems to be very agreeable to whatever I say. Right. Which is why we've
Susan Drumm: developed our own AI capacity that
Susan Drumm: focuses specifically on leadership development under models that have
Susan Drumm: been. We've been used for over 20 years. Right. In the field.
Susan Drumm: We know what works and we're also not going to agree with you on
Susan Drumm: every little thing that you say. And I worry about
Susan Drumm: that from a perspective of AI. If it's always sort of like.
Susan Drumm: That's a really good point. Like all the time. That it's
Susan Drumm: further reinforcing our unwillingness to
Susan Drumm: listen to others because it keeps reinforcing that
Susan Drumm: whatever we believe is right. I remember that's the
Susan Drumm: addictive quality of it. Right. It's sort of like people want to be
Susan Drumm: told like, you're absolutely right. You know, if I might put,
Susan Drumm: like, is my boss, you know, a jerk for doing X, Y, Z.
Susan Drumm: And yes, he is like, you know, like it's
Susan Drumm: almost hardwired to agree with you because
Susan Drumm: that will keep you coming back. But we've got to recognise, like
Susan Drumm: there's a slippery slope with that. Yeah. So. But
Susan Drumm: not a lot of people do that. They're like, show me where my thinking is
Susan Drumm: flawed here. Let me. I mean that's not a. People
Susan Drumm: want to be right and they want to be proven right and they will use
Susan Drumm: AI to prove themselves. Right. And AI will
Susan Drumm: comply. Analysis always kind of, to me.
Susan Drumm: Right, Right. For sure. Look, there's some really.
Susan Drumm: I. The what. The reason we're embracing it as well is because. So people can
Susan Drumm: engage with the content more 24 7. So I
Susan Drumm: think there's powerful opportunities here to leverage AI
Susan Drumm: in the right way. I think it's also just to be careful of your own
Susan Drumm: bias towards wanting the answer that you
Susan Drumm: want and it giving you that. Yeah, it's.
Susan Drumm: I think today authenticity is going to
Susan Drumm: be the currency for a new tomorrow. Really?
Susan Drumm: How do you tell what's real anymore? I mean,
Susan Drumm: it's so easy now also to create your
Susan Drumm: own footage of things. Grok can make that happen.
Susan Drumm: I just saw some really wild things where it can make a still image come
Susan Drumm: alive and make it do whatever you want it to do and it looks
Susan Drumm: incredibly real. So I think, you know,
Susan Drumm: people's own intuition is going to be where you have
Susan Drumm: to start to rely on versus what you see.
Susan Drumm: Or what you're told, right? Yes. Is the reality.
Susan Drumm: Yes. Yes, it is definitely.
Susan Drumm: Like, we've got to kind of come back to
Susan Drumm: ourselves in a way and start building that intuition
Susan Drumm: questioning, as you're saying before, like, am I. Am I being
Susan Drumm: manipulated and stirred up for
Susan Drumm: someone's purpose or not? Your team.
Susan Drumm: Yeah. What I've seen, the leaders that have been able to do that
Susan Drumm: are as referring back, deeply
Susan Drumm: connected to their own, let's say, you know,
Susan Drumm: inner wisdom, inner confidence, inner strength,
Susan Drumm: inner. They know themselves well. And I think there's
Susan Drumm: a lot out there to help distract you from knowing yourself well. But you
Susan Drumm: only know yourself well if you actually take some time to go within and
Susan Drumm: make that pause to do so and helping people
Susan Drumm: get back to themselves. And you are your best guide,
Susan Drumm: and you can be curious about what's going on
Susan Drumm: externally. But I think if we keep
Susan Drumm: relying on the external to tell us how we feel,
Susan Drumm: we're just setting ourselves up for a world of hurt
Susan Drumm: to come. As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you
Joanne Lockwood: as. Yeah, yeah. The other way that we help people
Susan Drumm: see the patterns for themselves and how
Susan Drumm: they might shift them is using music, actually.
Susan Drumm: So I wrote a book called the Leaders Playlist, and it's how
Susan Drumm: to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your
Susan Drumm: leadership in your life. And I'm using music both figuratively
Susan Drumm: and literally. So tying that back into what we just
Susan Drumm: talked about, starting to discover what is that
Susan Drumm: playlist that's no longer serving you? And
Susan Drumm: because essentially what it is, it's a vibration. It's like a belief that
Susan Drumm: you're putting out there that the world returns back to you. And so
Susan Drumm: music is incredibly powerful because it allows you to build
Susan Drumm: new neural pathways more quickly and so allows you to create
Susan Drumm: that new perspective both about yourself and about others
Susan Drumm: by harnessing that power. So we. We, for
Susan Drumm: individuals, like, starting to learn what is that pattern that
Susan Drumm: holds me back, and pairing that with some music to interrupt that
Susan Drumm: pattern and then creating a new playlist of what the new
Susan Drumm: belief needs to be and using music to help
Susan Drumm: rewire that and groove it into the brain such that you
Susan Drumm: have more access to it. That's some of the shifting that we do
Susan Drumm: as well. So it's just a whole nother perspective on how
Susan Drumm: shifts in mindset are possible. So. Right. Right. There's clearly
Joanne Lockwood: metaphors in that. We. There are. And we can be much more
Susan Drumm: intentional about the music we select by noticing its impact
Susan Drumm: on us. How is it making you feel? What do you notice about that?
Susan Drumm: You know, it was one example. When we go through a breakup, we
Susan Drumm: often like to hear other sad songs because
Susan Drumm: we're mirroring what we're feeling inside. Right. But then if we
Susan Drumm: stay stuck there, that's where it becomes. So I had.
Susan Drumm: There was a girlfriend who went through some tragedy in her life and,
Susan Drumm: you know, like six years later, her whole playlist was like sad songs.
Susan Drumm: And I pointed it out to her and she's like, you know, you're right. I
Susan Drumm: said, they're. They're sort of keeping you stuck in the past. Right.
Susan Drumm: You're stuck in this pattern and you're
Susan Drumm: chipping over your past. When you need to be moving forward into
Susan Drumm: your future. What do you want your future to be? And
Susan Drumm: if you have that, let's create, like, what's that new
Susan Drumm: playlist going to be? And she did and really
Susan Drumm: transformed her life by this simple measure.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's time to break. Yes, absolutely. And so if I
Susan Drumm: translate that to an example of how.
Susan Drumm: How do we use this in leadership? Right. Though I'll tell a storey. There
Susan Drumm: was a woman I worked with who, very talented,
Susan Drumm: chief marketing officer in a biotech company. And
Susan Drumm: however she was having conflict with her peers
Susan Drumm: in the kind of C suite, the feedback that came back was that
Susan Drumm: she was not being collaborative in a helpful
Susan Drumm: way, wanting to kind of get. Would get upset if she wasn't invited to
Susan Drumm: certain meetings or wasn't. Was left out of
Susan Drumm: key communication. And of course, from her perspective, she's like, I'm the chief
Susan Drumm: marketing officer, I need to know about these things in order for me to be
Susan Drumm: effective. But what I was interested in, in what was the playlist she was playing
Susan Drumm: that was having that show up in her experience. And so we started
Susan Drumm: to look at where, you know, when I described to her, what is she
Susan Drumm: feeling when this occurs and she's feeling frustration,
Susan Drumm: she's feeling like she's being excluded.
Susan Drumm: And so I said, okay, well, let's look where else. Is this
Susan Drumm: a familiar pattern to you? Have you felt this way before? Oh,
Susan Drumm: yes. Right. We could go to the ex husband who
Susan Drumm: now had the lake house that she used to
Susan Drumm: bring the kids to. They used to go as a family and now the kids
Susan Drumm: went with just him. And she. Every time they did that, she felt this same
Susan Drumm: familiar pattern. Or we go further back when, you know,
Susan Drumm: all of her experience, she could very clearly see
Susan Drumm: places. She was sort of hypersensitive now to feelings
Susan Drumm: where she realised she had a playlist called I am Excluded.
Susan Drumm: And so what is her work to do in that is to recognise
Susan Drumm: that that's sort of like there's a patterning and what
Susan Drumm: you look at expands. So she decided to have
Susan Drumm: a song focused particularly to recognise when she's in
Susan Drumm: this pattern. And she didn't want to have this pattern anymore. And that was Adele's
Susan Drumm: hello. You know, the song is sort of like, hello, can you hear me? I've
Susan Drumm: been calling a thousand times and you won't pick up the phone. Right.
Susan Drumm: And so she was like, when I feel this way. Oh, there's Adele
Susan Drumm: again. So what do I want the new playlist to be? And that's where we
Susan Drumm: looked at. She created a new pattern which
Susan Drumm: was, again, these are I am statements. I am excluded becomes
Susan Drumm: now. For her, I bring peace and appreciation.
Susan Drumm: Because she really wanted to focus on what she brought to the community. So
Susan Drumm: in that, she developed a whole playlist of songs that had
Susan Drumm: her be in that experience. And the more she did that, the
Susan Drumm: more life started showing up differently for her life and
Susan Drumm: her work. Such that now people say
Susan Drumm: we need to bring her in. Like, she has coffee every
Susan Drumm: other week with the person who used to be the one that was excluding her
Susan Drumm: the most because her energy shifted around that, their
Susan Drumm: energy shifted. And that's all you really have control over, is shifting your energy at
Susan Drumm: the end of the day. So that's the little example of how music can be
Susan Drumm: used to really shift old patterns and create new ones.
Susan Drumm: Right. This is my storey. Adele's never going to get you out of bed in
Joanne Lockwood: the morning. Yeah. And look, it's not to say that we want. The
Susan Drumm: emotions are very important to recognise and to feel because
Susan Drumm: they each have information in us. So I'm not saying don't feel
Susan Drumm: this way. You feel what you feel, recognise what it is.
Susan Drumm: It's more about when you get stuck in a pattern of feeling that
Susan Drumm: way where it sort of like becomes the water
Susan Drumm: you swim in. That's where there's the opportunity to break free.
Susan Drumm: Well, right now I'm looking at music that sort of moves the
Susan Drumm: world. And what is music that's going to
Susan Drumm: have me feel free and empowered to create change that benefits
Susan Drumm: humanity and others. And so this song, I think, has been
Susan Drumm: out for a while, but it's really getting. It's called Love
Susan Drumm: Generation and it's. It's just a fun song.
Susan Drumm: And so I'm building some other songs like that because
Susan Drumm: it reminds me of my mission in the world. I can zone out I could
Joanne Lockwood: get you feeling good. Yeah. I would really encourage listeners to choose
Susan Drumm: a song that represents something to them about how they Want
Susan Drumm: their day to go and play that in the morning a
Susan Drumm: lot. I mean, it's the same looking at. I frequently see
Susan Drumm: it under these nine patterns. Right. Or beliefs. It
Susan Drumm: may be that I can't delegate. I'm the central
Susan Drumm: part. No one does it as good as I can. People
Susan Drumm: don't have my back. These are all kind of ways in which
Susan Drumm: people get stuck and not open to
Susan Drumm: receiving the opportunity that could be there for them. So
Susan Drumm: I would say there's. There's not one. There's patterns
Susan Drumm: of different belief sets and that's. In the book. I
Susan Drumm: detail some examples of these. I go into eight or nine
Susan Drumm: different storeys of the types of leaders and what
Susan Drumm: their old playlist was, let's say, and where they're getting stuck
Susan Drumm: and what their new playlist was. But also even their actual music that
Susan Drumm: they used to shift that. Well, I think one of the
Susan Drumm: shocking things is you would think at that point like there would be relief
Susan Drumm: and less anxiety and all those things.
Susan Drumm: So the, the, the patterns of that
Susan Drumm: sort of like how what you came up against when you made your
Susan Drumm: money is exactly what you're gonna still be dealing with when you
Susan Drumm: have your money. If there was a lot of fear, then the fear will
Susan Drumm: also be present when the fear of losing the money.
Susan Drumm: Right. Or it's sort of the same. It doesn't. You don't
Susan Drumm: change. And so I have. You don't change unless you do the work to change.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. The same emotions can be present because
Susan Drumm: you've developed those patterns over a lifetime.
Susan Drumm: And so, I mean, you'd be surprised the same
Susan Drumm: challenges they're facing are what other leaders are facing.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I can resonate that. I work in a
Joanne Lockwood: fairly tight small business consulting community
Joanne Lockwood: across HR and people. People.
Joanne Lockwood: And there's a. There's a common theme of imposter syndrome and
Joanne Lockwood: burnout and family and conflict of work. We've all got
Joanne Lockwood: something, haven't we? And it's very similar. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Drumm: So it's no different. And I think I can speak to that. You
Susan Drumm: know, I'm not intimidated by, you know, that level
Susan Drumm: of success. It's still a human being that's still got blind
Susan Drumm: spots and gifts and superpowers and how can we leverage more of
Susan Drumm: that? But how can we broaden the perspective so that people. Again, I'm
Susan Drumm: just most interested in people being free and empowered
Susan Drumm: to create the change that they want to be creating and helping
Susan Drumm: them see where they put their own self imposed limits on that and
Susan Drumm: shifting them is the work that I love to do. In the world.
Joanne Lockwood: I would have thought they would also respect you meeting them where they're
Joanne Lockwood: at as well. And they probably get surrounded by people who are
Joanne Lockwood: scared, scared of them, but, you know, scared to speak up, scared to share
Joanne Lockwood: their perspective. And if you could be yourself around them and be relaxed and be
Joanne Lockwood: a peer as opposed to a subordinate,
Joanne Lockwood: then yeah, it must be, must be refreshing for them as well.
Susan Drumm: Yes, yes, I've heard that exact piece. You know, treat
Susan Drumm: me as like I'm
Susan Drumm: solid in myself. I don't. I'm not going to get, you know. In awe of
Joanne Lockwood: anybody. No, it's. Right, it's, it's either a maturity
Joanne Lockwood: or a. There's a certain point in your life where you, you kind of, you
Joanne Lockwood: kind of get that, don't you? You kind of become that self confident, self assured.
Susan Drumm: Yeah. And you don't need to be in awe of anybody. They're just, they're just
Joanne Lockwood: people who happen to have a bigger get up with zeros in their bank account
Joanne Lockwood: than you do. Yeah, yeah. Is there a
Joanne Lockwood: gender difference? You know, is it female executive
Joanne Lockwood: prototype or type? Or is there. Is it very similar traits across
Joanne Lockwood: genders? It's a good question. I feel like
Susan Drumm: there's, I think it's changing generationally, but let's say
Susan Drumm: my generation, I'm in my mid-50s and the women
Susan Drumm: that have risen through the ranks have. There's
Susan Drumm: a real sort of like fire a little bit underneath them because
Susan Drumm: they've had to kind of break through some
Susan Drumm: initial bias and so there's
Susan Drumm: confidence but also maybe
Susan Drumm: exhausted because that took a lot of energy to get there
Susan Drumm: for. A number of sort of lean in generations. Cheryl Sandberg sort of thing where
Joanne Lockwood: you having to reclaim your truth and reclaim your power
Joanne Lockwood: type generation, that requires a. Lot of energy to do that. So
Susan Drumm: I recognise maybe some patterns in
Susan Drumm: that for that generation of women and what they've had to claim.
Susan Drumm: And maybe sometimes it comes through in, well, if
Susan Drumm: I had to fight and claw my way, so should
Susan Drumm: you, because that made me who I am. It gave them a confidence. Right.
Susan Drumm: But then there's a different expectation whereas, you know, maybe
Susan Drumm: a different generation doesn't want to have to fight and claw their way.
Susan Drumm: So having that expectation that that's how you need to be in order to
Susan Drumm: be successful I think is a limiting. Belief because there's a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of younger billionaires these
Joanne Lockwood: days, isn't there? It's not all Warren buffets in their 70s and 80s.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a lot of self made Silicon Valley
Joanne Lockwood: unicorn leaders in their early 20s making
Joanne Lockwood: printing money, being innovative, creating startups.
Joanne Lockwood: And they're probably a lot more gung ho. A lot,
Joanne Lockwood: lot more, a lot less risk averse. They're probably more seat of the pants.
Susan Drumm: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think whatever makes
Susan Drumm: us successful in what we do, we think that's the recipe
Susan Drumm: for success that everyone else has to bottle. And it's not, we're seeing,
Susan Drumm: it's not actually the case. No, but, but I
Joanne Lockwood: guess there's a generational challenge as well. Just
Joanne Lockwood: the, the lived experience, you know, we talked about that earlier, the perspectives,
Joanne Lockwood: it's coming around full circle. You talked about these nine different leadership styles. I'm guessing
Joanne Lockwood: then that that age diversity, gender
Joanne Lockwood: diversity, ethnicity diversity is all in there and those lived experiences
Joanne Lockwood: all help contribute and it's not necessarily true that
Joanne Lockwood: just because you're 60, you're going to be more cautious or just because you're younger,
Joanne Lockwood: you're going to be more gung ho. That's again a stereotype bias, isn't it?
Susan Drumm: Yeah, for sure. And that's why I think, you know,
Susan Drumm: these different leadership style types, they're, they're not
Susan Drumm: influenced by generation, they're actually how, maybe
Susan Drumm: how it shows up could be a little bit different. Right. Saying
Susan Drumm: how someone is more of like the sceptic and
Susan Drumm: how that shows up. There's just as many in a younger generation as
Susan Drumm: well, I don't see a distinction. I think it's universal.
Joanne Lockwood: So which is the rare blood type, the AB negative of the
Joanne Lockwood: leadership styles, which is the rocking horse poo?
Joanne Lockwood: It's hard to find that the last piece of the jigsaw you have to get
Joanne Lockwood: in your team. Typically I would say what I see
Susan Drumm: least of, and it may be that it's, I know it has to do with
Susan Drumm: the industries that I'm working with, but it's the type 4 which
Susan Drumm: is the intense, creative. Typically that type tends to
Susan Drumm: be in more creative, like highly creative
Susan Drumm: fields. And so, but they're really
Susan Drumm: good at crafting purpose and meaning behind
Susan Drumm: the work. So if I, you know, I do a lot of work,
Susan Drumm: healthcare, tech, professional services, financial services,
Susan Drumm: those types tend to be missing. But when we do find them, they play in
Susan Drumm: a key role in the team's performance,
Susan Drumm: particularly being able to translate whatever it is that their
Susan Drumm: goal is into like the why, what's the
Susan Drumm: purpose and meaning behind what we're doing? And if anything,
Susan Drumm: I would say the younger generation, they need to hear that. And so the type
Susan Drumm: 4 is particularly well suited to help making that
Susan Drumm: translation and understanding the why behind what
Susan Drumm: the Organisation is trying to do the way. You described that it
Joanne Lockwood: seemed to my understanding would resonate with someone who was maybe
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiverse. That intensity, that hyper focus, that
Joanne Lockwood: ability to really be single, focused and
Joanne Lockwood: creative at the same time. Is that truism or is that me just
Joanne Lockwood: guessing? I wouldn't say necessarily singularly focused. It's
Susan Drumm: more. These types are often able to see perspectives
Susan Drumm: like more more in tap with their emotion,
Susan Drumm: the emotional life within them. And because they can get in touch with their own,
Susan Drumm: they can get in touch with yours as well. And through that they're able
Susan Drumm: to influence in a way that others can't around purpose and
Susan Drumm: meaning. But also they're able to leverage those
Susan Drumm: emotions to be able to bring the creativity into
Susan Drumm: whatever they do. I think those that are most creative are able to
Susan Drumm: tap into, they understand their own emotional life in more dep.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so flipping on the other side then, which is the O positive, which is
Joanne Lockwood: the common leadership type? Which is the one that we've got that one first. That's
Joanne Lockwood: the first corner we put in our jigsaw. What's the common type? Well, typically
Susan Drumm: I would say more CEOs are type threes or type
Susan Drumm: 8s. There are two types that I see very common. A type 3 is the
Susan Drumm: competitive achiever and type 8 is called
Susan Drumm: the powerful challenger or active controller would be another
Susan Drumm: way to describe them. And these two types tend to be the leader
Susan Drumm: types that want to be in charge and
Susan Drumm: leading the pack. So more often than not, I'm. When I'm working with a CEO,
Susan Drumm: there are. Now that's not always the case by any means. And I love
Susan Drumm: when I get to work with a leader who's in a different format. But
Susan Drumm: I've worked with more threes and eights than any other type at the CEO's
Susan Drumm: spot. How do you class Barack Obama then?
Joanne Lockwood: Where would you put him on the. You know, I don't know.
Susan Drumm: That's interesting. I've never thought to think about what his type is. What's
Susan Drumm: hard is what we're really looking for is what
Susan Drumm: motivates you or drive you. Behaviour can vary from person to person.
Susan Drumm: So if. But all we see is behaviour. So it's very
Susan Drumm: hard when somebody tries to, I guess, call it like armchair type someone else
Susan Drumm: because they don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing. And
Susan Drumm: that's what makes it such a rich tool. Because if you think of like an
Susan Drumm: iceberg, above the waterline is behaviour. That's what we can see
Susan Drumm: below the waterline. Is what's driving that behaviour, what's the
Susan Drumm: motivation? And that's what this assessment really
Susan Drumm: looks at. And because of that, really encourage
Susan Drumm: people to. There are some ones out there that do not type people
Susan Drumm: accurately because it's harder. It's a harder thing to assess. You want the ones
Susan Drumm: that are. You don't want the cheapy or freebie ones online. Like, they do
Susan Drumm: not do you justice because they're probably mistyping. They're horoscopes.
Joanne Lockwood: They're just horoscopes. Yeah, they're just. They're just not accurate. And so
Susan Drumm: what you really want is the one that is, like, far
Susan Drumm: more detailed and one that we use in our programmes that
Susan Drumm: is backed by neuroscience, that has over 1200
Susan Drumm: questions in the database. They're not asking you 1200 questions, but they're using
Susan Drumm: fractal mathematics to keep checking and rechecking to make sure that they get
Susan Drumm: an accurate typing. So with Barack, I only have. I
Susan Drumm: don't know him well enough to understand when he's described, motivation
Susan Drumm: to see whether. Otherwise I just look at his behaviour and then I could
Susan Drumm: mistype. Okay, that's. That's a really fair point. That, as you say,
Joanne Lockwood: it's. It's backed by neuroscience, and neuroscience is sitting in an armchair
Joanne Lockwood: a thousand miles away having a guess. So that's, that's the validation,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, we're looking for here. You have to engage in the process and it
Joanne Lockwood: has a meaning. Yes, Right.
Susan Drumm: So, you know, there's a way to.
Susan Drumm: We've got a programme called Enneagram Applied, which will both
Susan Drumm: assess but also show you how to leverage that, to be able to
Susan Drumm: create your own development plan and further
Susan Drumm: use those around you to help understand your blind spot in more
Susan Drumm: depth and leverage them in. We kind of put it a
Susan Drumm: mini 360 model of leveraging those who know you
Susan Drumm: best to further explore that blind spot.
Susan Drumm: Because I'm also a believer, like an assessment is an assessment. It's more about
Susan Drumm: what do you do with that information that makes all the difference. And so
Susan Drumm: that's why we call it applied, because we want you to apply this information
Susan Drumm: for your own growth, not just, like, give you a horoscope thing.
Joanne Lockwood: Have you got any statistics on percentage improvement or is it.
Joanne Lockwood: Is it not that measurable? I mean, do you measure when you've got nine pieces
Joanne Lockwood: of the jigsaw in place versus only three pieces that jigsaw in place? Is there
Joanne Lockwood: a. Is there a demonstrable, tangible, quantitative
Joanne Lockwood: outcome of this? I mean, if, If I could zero
Susan Drumm: in, I would have Billions. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: It'd be very rich. Yes, I know, because I see the improvement in the team.
Susan Drumm: But they were making lots of different changes. Right. So it's hard to isolate the
Susan Drumm: factor. It's because of this they start collaborating better and then they
Susan Drumm: come up with a new idea and then they bring in a new marketing person.
Susan Drumm: So you can't. It's very hard for people to isolate what was
Susan Drumm: the actual thing. But I know it creates change. So
Joanne Lockwood: there's a certain element of cultural shift, isn't there? If you're, if you're doing the
Joanne Lockwood: work, you become invested in the process, you become invested in the
Joanne Lockwood: outcome and then you become more, more
Joanne Lockwood: aware of each other and different thinking starts and personality traits.
Joanne Lockwood: Therefore you're more tolerant of their views, you're more inviting
Joanne Lockwood: of their views into your views. So I guess it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy
Joanne Lockwood: as well, where you, by being on the programme, doing the work, it becomes
Joanne Lockwood: output, it gets delivered. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Susan Drumm: It really does. So it's exciting work and I'm
Susan Drumm: grateful to have been in this field for,
Susan Drumm: like I said, Now, 25 years with my own firm over the last 20.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow. So it's been
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating actually. We could probably talk another couple of hours, but, you know, we've got
Joanne Lockwood: it, we've got to get on. How can people get ahold of you? Sure.
Susan Drumm: Well, I want to invite people, if they are curious about their
Susan Drumm: superpower and potential liability that we talked about earlier,
Susan Drumm: to go to susandrum.com and take. I've
Susan Drumm: got a simple free quiz there that
Susan Drumm: will start to illuminate what might be your superpower and
Susan Drumm: liability. But the fun part comes after because
Susan Drumm: what we'll do is we'll send you based on how your
Susan Drumm: responses are the chapter in the book that most
Susan Drumm: relates to that. And so you will get the
Susan Drumm: playlist of the person who might be similar to you and what they
Susan Drumm: use, what their old playlist title was, what music and what the new one
Susan Drumm: is so you can play around and maybe get some ideas. If you want to
Susan Drumm: create your own playlist based on what you see might
Susan Drumm: need to shift in your own life from that. So we like to tie those
Susan Drumm: things together and that's a fun way. So go there. I also have my own
Susan Drumm: podcast called the Enlightened Executive where we interview leaders
Susan Drumm: and entrepreneurs about their own journey to enlightened
Susan Drumm: leadership. And so those are two great ways to
Susan Drumm: get connected. And of course my firm is meritage leadership and there's more
Susan Drumm: information there too. Fabulous, Fabulous. So Drum
Joanne Lockwood: D R U M M - 2m's
Joanne Lockwood: yes. Yeah. 2Ms I know. Isn't it funny that
Susan Drumm: I wrote a book about music and my last name is
Susan Drumm: an instance. They say that you align with your name. I can't remember what it's
Joanne Lockwood: called. I don't know how this happens but it does. There's dentist called Dr.
Joanne Lockwood: Payne or something and there's a thing.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't remember what it's called now maybe someone can write in and tell me
Joanne Lockwood: but there's a, there's a thing where you become the person by your name.
Joanne Lockwood: Well known theory, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheque that out. I wanna find out my
Joanne Lockwood: playlist and I wanna do some assessment there. Yeah and
Joanne Lockwood: actually my free gift back to you is I I I I feed the transcript
Joanne Lockwood: these episodes and
Joanne Lockwood: generate song lyrics of each episode. So it'd be really interesting to see what the
Joanne Lockwood: song lyrics come out for this one. And I use an AI music platform
Joanne Lockwood: called suno. I generate you an ep
Joanne Lockwood: so I do different music styles for Bollywood to every rock
Joanne Lockwood: to rock ballads. So it'd be really interesting to see if any of those
Joanne Lockwood: you go, ah, that's my playlist, that's my song. And
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, so if you're listening to this, I have got an AI playlist of
Joanne Lockwood: songs from the podcast. So yeah, please cheque it out.
Susan Drumm: I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, well it's been
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fantastic getting to know you, having a conversation and
Joanne Lockwood: for those listening, check out Susan on
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn, on all the other platforms and visit the website. All of the details will
Joanne Lockwood: be in the show notes. Thank you so much for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Pleasure. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close. I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear
Joanne Lockwood: and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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