WEBVTT 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo and share storeys that resonate 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect and inspire action together. 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:19.040 And today is episode 209 with the 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.400 title Inclusion that actually Sticks. 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.640 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Susan Drumm. 00:01:27.440 --> 00:01:31.440 Susan is a leadership advisor and coach who helps organisations 00:01:31.440 --> 00:01:34.960 turn diversity into everyday performance by 00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:38.880 embedding inclusive habits that build trust, voice equity 00:01:39.360 --> 00:01:43.040 and that lead to better decisions. When I asked 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:46.740 Susan to describe her superpower, she said that it is spotting the 00:01:46.740 --> 00:01:50.380 invisible patterns that quietly run teams and 00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:53.860 translating complex neuroscience into simple, 00:01:53.860 --> 00:01:57.420 repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective 00:01:58.060 --> 00:02:01.780 and make space for every voice. Hello, Susan, 00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:04.940 welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:09.740 Absolute pleasure. We were just chatting away there in the green room before we pushed 00:02:09.740 --> 00:02:13.660 the record button and I think you said you're in Arizona, is that 00:02:13.660 --> 00:02:17.610 right? That's right, yes. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona 00:02:17.610 --> 00:02:21.530 and it's at the time that we're taping in the. We 00:02:21.530 --> 00:02:25.450 like to say we have eight months of heaven for four months of hell 00:02:25.450 --> 00:02:29.250 when it comes to our art. Yeah, so you are. It's got cold 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:33.130 snaps as well. Like right now. It is truly heaven. 00:02:33.370 --> 00:02:37.370 It's, you know, I'm trying to think celsius, but about 70 degrees 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:40.170 Fahrenheit. And so just beautiful, beautiful 00:02:40.870 --> 00:02:44.710 spectacular weather at the end of January where the rest of the 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:48.790 country seems to be in a freeze over, but then we pay a price 00:02:48.870 --> 00:02:52.710 in the summer where it gets blasted hot. And although 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:56.470 I. The idea is if you have the flexibility like I do to 00:02:56.470 --> 00:03:00.390 leave during those months, then you're best to depart during 00:03:00.390 --> 00:03:03.190 those four months of intense heat. 00:03:03.990 --> 00:03:07.880 Dusk. Yes, yes. And we can have storms that run 00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:11.840 through around that time as well, you know, very heavy 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.520 rains and then it would be dry. So. Yeah, 00:03:15.760 --> 00:03:18.080 called the monsoons. Yeah, 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:23.200 I really Enjoy it here because I think I'm. 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.640 I lived in the northeast most of my life, the first 00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:30.560 portion. And it was. 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:35.120 I just don't do well with living in winter. Very. And I 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.980 did also, by the way, live in London for two years. Love that. 00:03:38.980 --> 00:03:42.980 But I'm addicted to the sun. It just makes me happy. I want 00:03:42.980 --> 00:03:46.460 to be in a place where the sun is shining every day. And sometimes people 00:03:46.460 --> 00:03:50.220 say, well, don't you miss the change of seasons? And I was like, no. 00:03:50.220 --> 00:03:54.020 If I want to go be in snow, I'll go book a 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:57.980 holiday for five days, you know, in a ski resort and get some of that 00:03:57.980 --> 00:04:01.780 and then leave. Pop up to Aspen. There's plenty of places with mountains and 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:05.670 things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice. If you can live 00:04:05.670 --> 00:04:09.470 in two places, it's ideal because you'll get such incredible 00:04:09.470 --> 00:04:12.870 weather whenever, when everywhere else doesn't seem that way 00:04:13.270 --> 00:04:16.470 and then go off when it's, you know, more 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:19.510 inhospitable. Yes, yes, 00:04:20.390 --> 00:04:23.950 yes. Well, I think as human beings, we think we're 00:04:23.950 --> 00:04:27.630 chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we 00:04:27.630 --> 00:04:31.470 can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where we 00:04:31.470 --> 00:04:35.040 point our focus of attention, that's what we see. 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:39.320 And we get very good. We usually develop patterns 00:04:39.320 --> 00:04:42.920 about what we want to look at and that becomes a bit of a 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.760 superpower because we get so good at looking that direction and studying that and 00:04:46.760 --> 00:04:50.640 understanding that. But there's something behind our head we can't see, 00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:54.480 and that's our blind spot. In some of the models I use, 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.800 they very clearly show where your superpower lies, 00:04:58.960 --> 00:05:02.800 but where you kind of maybe have a liability you're not as familiar with. 00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:06.690 And I, I like to use models that are more 00:05:06.850 --> 00:05:10.770 inclusive in general that show that there's someone else looking 00:05:10.770 --> 00:05:14.570 in that direction by their very nature because of what they 00:05:14.570 --> 00:05:18.450 pay attention to. And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue, 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:22.370 it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts to 00:05:22.370 --> 00:05:25.970 show why that's the case and how actually 00:05:27.010 --> 00:05:30.890 they're your best friend in terms of growth because they're 00:05:30.890 --> 00:05:34.650 looking into the area where you may not see what's possible. 00:05:35.450 --> 00:05:38.850 And so I think when you talked about the 00:05:38.850 --> 00:05:42.250 superpower is for me to really 00:05:42.970 --> 00:05:46.970 help people see their patterns and self imposed limits 00:05:47.050 --> 00:05:50.650 that are inherent in who we are and start to 00:05:50.650 --> 00:05:54.570 widen that gap to shift their perspective so that new 00:05:54.570 --> 00:05:57.760 opportunities for growth, for success 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.040 become available to them. Yeah. And. 00:06:02.880 --> 00:06:06.680 For sure it definitely Starts to take this, you 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.640 know, for some, more rigid than others. Right. It's like slowly 00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:14.640 chipping away at what people believe is possible. 00:06:15.520 --> 00:06:19.520 Exactly. And you can, even more powerfully, if you 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:23.240 can, build the team that's accounting for your blind 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.080 spots and recognise that the person that triggers 00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.300 you is probably the person that you have the most growth 00:06:30.940 --> 00:06:34.740 to learn from. There's something there. And so that's why I 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:38.660 help people see the map of that and they can start to see how 00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:42.380 this person actually can be beneficial to what they're trying to 00:06:42.380 --> 00:06:46.060 accomplish in the world. Yes. That alternate. If you're not careful, 00:06:46.460 --> 00:06:50.220 you grip. Yes. Because you're worried about all these things. Yes. 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:54.150 Yes. And it's almost. My sense is there's. I 00:06:54.150 --> 00:06:57.910 mean, there's even more gripping to the belief, but 00:06:58.310 --> 00:07:02.230 anything you resist, you give it power and you give it more 00:07:02.230 --> 00:07:06.110 power. So I don't think our answer is sort of 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:09.870 more resistance. I don't see how that's been working out for 00:07:09.870 --> 00:07:13.390 us. It's sort of the. I feel like the answer is 00:07:13.390 --> 00:07:17.110 curiosity and like, let me. Let me understand that 00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:20.910 perspective and let me look from that. And what 00:07:20.910 --> 00:07:24.880 aspect of this could I incorporate or what gift could 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:28.880 I give because of my superpower, looking in the other way? And it starts 00:07:28.880 --> 00:07:32.880 to. I think the only way you get there is for people to 00:07:32.880 --> 00:07:36.880 start to recognise where that blind spot is, that they have it 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:40.360 and where it is, and recognise that 00:07:41.320 --> 00:07:44.960 the gift that you bring to someone else is looking in their blind spot, but 00:07:44.960 --> 00:07:48.600 they also look into yours. Yeah, I think, because, 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.890 you know, anytime I hear, like, that's the way it is, like, 00:07:52.890 --> 00:07:56.610 I want to be like, is it. Is it the way it is? Um, 00:07:57.570 --> 00:08:01.410 and I. And I would say we can, if we approach 00:08:01.410 --> 00:08:05.210 it with curiosity, on different perspectives they get. 00:08:05.210 --> 00:08:09.130 One challenges them to. Without. Right, right. And 00:08:09.130 --> 00:08:12.770 a lot of it is we're not really trained with language. 00:08:13.010 --> 00:08:16.530 Even that's inclusive. Like, you know, you can say, 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:21.850 that's really interesting. Here's how I've looked at it before. What do 00:08:21.850 --> 00:08:24.450 you think of that perspective? Right. That's very. Inv. 00:08:25.470 --> 00:08:29.470 Language versus. Yeah, but what about X, Y, Z? Right. 00:08:29.470 --> 00:08:32.990 And that's what it's like. The energy of that exchange. 00:08:33.310 --> 00:08:37.190 Then we'll have. Like I said, you bring resistance. The other person 00:08:37.190 --> 00:08:41.190 gets more resistant in their point of view and then that's when you 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:45.110 start to have the breakdown. Yeah. You entrench in your. In your opposites, 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:49.110 don't you? Right. Yes. Gosh, it's. It's. This is 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.790 the work of our times. Right. Now, you know, and 00:08:53.590 --> 00:08:57.430 so there's different ways to go about it. I mean, sometimes picking the most 00:08:57.590 --> 00:09:01.430 divisive conversations are probably not the place to start. 00:09:01.510 --> 00:09:05.470 Like, I think we need to build skillset in having easier 00:09:05.470 --> 00:09:09.110 conversations first and opening our aperture, 00:09:09.270 --> 00:09:13.110 then work up to the more difficult ones. And so when I think 00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:17.030 about teams, when teams are working together, starting to 00:09:17.030 --> 00:09:20.120 learn, like what. Why that person is always throwing, 00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:24.880 let's say, a wet blanket or cold water over your idea, what 00:09:24.880 --> 00:09:28.720 are they actually motivated by? What are they actually looking to do? 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.440 Because you're interpreting their behaviour through your own 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.280 motivations and your own type filter, we would say, and 00:09:36.280 --> 00:09:39.960 getting curious about what they're. You know, we make up 00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:44.430 reasons for why people do the things they do, but that's based 00:09:44.430 --> 00:09:47.630 on our own drive of motivation. Right. 00:09:48.430 --> 00:09:52.030 The transition between how people can become 00:09:52.430 --> 00:09:56.310 more curious and engage in these types of conversations. Because we get stuck. 00:09:56.310 --> 00:09:59.950 Get stuck in our. In groups. Yeah. There was a 00:09:59.950 --> 00:10:03.390 wonderful video. I think it was actually 00:10:03.630 --> 00:10:07.510 designed to be a commercial and I think it was Heineken, believe it 00:10:07.510 --> 00:10:11.430 or not. And the idea was that you could bring people 00:10:11.430 --> 00:10:15.390 with very polar views together over 00:10:15.390 --> 00:10:19.270 a beer to actually get to know each other as humans. And it's a 00:10:19.270 --> 00:10:23.110 very powerful storey. You can find it on YouTube at. Worlds Apart. Do you know? 00:10:23.110 --> 00:10:26.270 Have you seen this? World's Apart? Yeah, Yeah. I use up my training courses sometimes. 00:10:26.270 --> 00:10:30.150 Yeah. Worlds Apart. Yeah. Very powerful. Yes. So that's. This 00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:33.870 is exactly what we're talking about. Right. And so kind of coming 00:10:33.950 --> 00:10:37.830 without the preconceived notions. And what we actually 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:41.790 find is we have more in common than we realise. Right. And I think 00:10:41.790 --> 00:10:45.510 that that storey highlights it really well. Yeah. And the solution is. 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:49.710 Right, right. Tolerant. Whereas if you're just more likely to 00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:53.590 be. Yeah, yes, it's. And also, if we approach. 00:10:53.910 --> 00:10:57.710 If we approach the conversation with. I want to get you 00:10:57.710 --> 00:11:01.590 to understand my point of view, then there's an inherent resistance. 00:11:01.590 --> 00:11:05.110 Nobody wants to be sort of told what to do. Right. 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:09.530 Actually, I want. No, but if I just said. Okay, that's. I think that's. I 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:11.210 think a lot of the things that black. 00:11:13.290 --> 00:11:15.850 Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that. 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:20.730 And so in order to help people 00:11:20.810 --> 00:11:23.450 understand their patterns, there are a couple different 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:27.850 ways we go about that. Two 00:11:27.850 --> 00:11:31.610 modalities in particular that I've found to be really powerful. 00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:35.610 One is working with the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Have you 00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:39.390 ever talked about it on the show? No. Go for it. Okay, great. Danny Graham 00:11:39.390 --> 00:11:42.950 is a powerful model of the way we use it in 00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:46.750 our work is that you have. There's nine different types of leadership 00:11:46.750 --> 00:11:50.630 styles and each have. They're based on 00:11:50.630 --> 00:11:54.430 what you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower and 00:11:54.430 --> 00:11:58.230 each have a liability that comes with them. And the model is 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:01.990 very powerful because it's a systems model, so, 00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:06.070 meaning it's showing the interrelationship between the nine different 00:12:06.230 --> 00:12:10.170 styles and how building high performance teams can 00:12:10.170 --> 00:12:13.650 happen when you have the right combination or 00:12:13.650 --> 00:12:17.610 diversity of these cognitive viewpoints, how 00:12:17.610 --> 00:12:21.050 people think. And so that's a really powerful tool because 00:12:21.530 --> 00:12:25.450 first of all, people understand their own process 00:12:26.090 --> 00:12:29.930 of, gosh, yeah, I have developed this superpower to do 00:12:30.170 --> 00:12:34.060 something this way and this is what I'm motivated to look at. But 00:12:34.060 --> 00:12:37.620 now I can also see what I don't see behind my head. 00:12:38.180 --> 00:12:42.060 And you gotta create that opening first, such that then you bring 00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:45.700 the team together to say, and look at that person, Charlie, 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.899 who happens to look in that. And I see now 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:53.500 why I can't see what they see, but how it could actually 00:12:53.500 --> 00:12:57.340 benefit me. And that's part of the process and the magic of 00:12:57.340 --> 00:13:01.140 that understanding and then realising, like, we've got 00:13:01.140 --> 00:13:04.610 some leadership style types that are not 00:13:04.850 --> 00:13:08.210 present on the team and we don't even have that 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:12.210 representation of the way that person would think or the types of 00:13:12.210 --> 00:13:15.970 questions they would ask in doing that work. So I think 00:13:16.130 --> 00:13:17.730 with that type of 00:13:19.890 --> 00:13:23.250 backdrop, this is where we get teams to be higher 00:13:23.250 --> 00:13:27.010 functioning. So that it's not to say, okay, you absolutely have to 00:13:27.010 --> 00:13:30.790 hire for every single, but recognise where the gaps are, 00:13:30.790 --> 00:13:34.270 that what's present in the team and have someone 00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:38.510 do their best to sort of play that part. Right. What are the types of 00:13:38.510 --> 00:13:42.230 questions? Let's say you're missing the loyal sceptic, which is 00:13:42.230 --> 00:13:45.550 type 6 on your team. Then you don't have that 00:13:45.550 --> 00:13:49.430 counterbalance. Everything is like full steam ahead, full steam ahead. You don't have that 00:13:49.430 --> 00:13:53.390 counterbalance to say, here's the potential drawback, how are we going to mitigate for that? 00:13:53.550 --> 00:13:57.360 So you will need to, with your team, make sure, 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.560 before you make a head decision, like we're going to take 15 minutes and look 00:14:01.560 --> 00:14:05.200 at what if this goes wrong, because we don't 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.120 naturally have that person on the team that does that. But we know 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.320 we need to take some time to look at that, as hard as it is 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.440 maybe for the types that are on the team to do so, we've got to 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:19.440 do that so that we make better decisions. And what I find is 00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:23.290 then that the best teams are 00:14:23.290 --> 00:14:27.050 cognitively diverse teams because they're representing these different 00:14:27.050 --> 00:14:31.010 perspectives and they're making better decisions as a result. So 00:14:31.010 --> 00:14:34.650 that's. The Enneagram is one big thing. That's one way to do it. And then 00:14:34.650 --> 00:14:38.530 some actually do look for, you know, when we make our 00:14:38.530 --> 00:14:41.850 next hire, let's look for somebody who seems to have that skill set. 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:46.490 If you haven't got. Yes, that's exactly right. 00:14:46.650 --> 00:14:50.490 So particularly for teams, that's why I've found the tool to be 00:14:50.490 --> 00:14:54.430 really powerful. And what's great about the Enneagram is no one owns it. It's 00:14:54.430 --> 00:14:58.390 an open source model that's been developed, you know, some would say 00:14:58.390 --> 00:15:02.150 definitely over decades, some would say even centuries. You 00:15:02.150 --> 00:15:05.510 know, they're actually finding deep connection with 00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:09.270 neuroscience related to this. So I, I recently 00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:13.750 was involved in a course called the Neuroscience of Change and 00:15:13.750 --> 00:15:17.670 they did an entire segment just on the Enneagram and starting to 00:15:17.670 --> 00:15:21.270 understand how the brain formulates and gets kind of 00:15:21.550 --> 00:15:25.430 grooved into one of these nine types. And a lot of it, 00:15:25.430 --> 00:15:29.190 of course has to do with upbringing and what we. Things happen to 00:15:29.190 --> 00:15:33.190 us. Right. As we socialisation. Yeah, yeah. What 00:15:33.190 --> 00:15:37.070 we make it mean typically falls into nine different styles. 00:15:37.229 --> 00:15:40.910 And so that, that was very exciting to me because there's 00:15:40.910 --> 00:15:44.510 real neuroscience behind looking at 00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:48.810 the world in this way and, and so, but it also 00:15:49.530 --> 00:15:53.370 allows people to recognise in themselves 00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:56.970 that they don't have all the answers. And that's the way you start to get 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:00.610 curious about like, well, you know, I don't have all the answers. Let me, let 00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:04.450 me ask some questions about people who see the world differently. So I, 00:16:04.450 --> 00:16:08.330 I find it's a powerful model for people to, to start to open 00:16:08.410 --> 00:16:12.330 up their curiosity. Yes. You know, there's, there's 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.730 another assessment we use that is looking at your 00:16:15.730 --> 00:16:19.300 internal experience under conflict or stress 00:16:20.260 --> 00:16:23.620 and in relationship with another person. And 00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:28.180 two of the dimensions that it's measuring. One is empathy accuracy. 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:31.700 Do I. Am I able to understand 00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:36.700 what your perspective is? But another dimension is 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:40.100 empathy, compassion and do I care? Right. 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:44.260 Am I able to understand your perspective and am I actually 00:16:44.750 --> 00:16:48.670 willing to care about that perspective? And so, wow, what 00:16:48.670 --> 00:16:52.630 a model for people to start to see. I would say like the 00:16:52.630 --> 00:16:56.430 psychopath is the one that is very. Understands what you want but does 00:16:56.430 --> 00:17:00.350 not care. And so these two skill sets, I believe, are going 00:17:00.350 --> 00:17:04.110 to be absolutely 100% critical the 00:17:04.110 --> 00:17:08.110 more AI becomes handling anything on 00:17:08.110 --> 00:17:11.850 the logic side of the equation. The 00:17:11.850 --> 00:17:15.570 skills that are uniquely human, which are empathy accuracy and 00:17:15.570 --> 00:17:19.370 empathy compassion, are going to be needed more than ever. 00:17:19.610 --> 00:17:23.370 To whatever it comes out with or challenge it with soul. Yes. Or, 00:17:23.370 --> 00:17:26.410 you know, it's kind of interesting. I find that it's also 00:17:27.129 --> 00:17:30.730 baking in trying to be empathetic, but it's 00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:35.410 inauthentic. So I don't know if you've played around, but it 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:39.410 seems to be very agreeable to whatever I say. Right. Which is why we've 00:17:39.410 --> 00:17:42.640 developed our own AI capacity that 00:17:43.040 --> 00:17:46.920 focuses specifically on leadership development under models that have 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.800 been. We've been used for over 20 years. Right. In the field. 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.680 We know what works and we're also not going to agree with you on 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.840 every little thing that you say. And I worry about 00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:02.120 that from a perspective of AI. If it's always sort of like. 00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:05.920 That's a really good point. Like all the time. That it's 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.900 further reinforcing our unwillingness to 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:13.780 listen to others because it keeps reinforcing that 00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:17.300 whatever we believe is right. I remember that's the 00:18:17.300 --> 00:18:21.180 addictive quality of it. Right. It's sort of like people want to be 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:25.020 told like, you're absolutely right. You know, if I might put, 00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:28.900 like, is my boss, you know, a jerk for doing X, Y, Z. 00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:32.940 And yes, he is like, you know, like it's 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.860 almost hardwired to agree with you because 00:18:37.350 --> 00:18:41.190 that will keep you coming back. But we've got to recognise, like 00:18:41.270 --> 00:18:45.150 there's a slippery slope with that. Yeah. So. But 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:48.950 not a lot of people do that. They're like, show me where my thinking is 00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:52.790 flawed here. Let me. I mean that's not a. People 00:18:53.110 --> 00:18:56.230 want to be right and they want to be proven right and they will use 00:18:56.230 --> 00:18:59.670 AI to prove themselves. Right. And AI will 00:18:59.670 --> 00:19:02.150 comply. Analysis always kind of, to me. 00:19:03.910 --> 00:19:07.830 Right, Right. For sure. Look, there's some really. 00:19:07.830 --> 00:19:11.450 I. The what. The reason we're embracing it as well is because. So people can 00:19:11.450 --> 00:19:15.450 engage with the content more 24 7. So I 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:19.410 think there's powerful opportunities here to leverage AI 00:19:19.890 --> 00:19:23.570 in the right way. I think it's also just to be careful of your own 00:19:23.570 --> 00:19:27.370 bias towards wanting the answer that you 00:19:27.370 --> 00:19:31.250 want and it giving you that. Yeah, it's. 00:19:31.410 --> 00:19:35.310 I think today authenticity is going to 00:19:35.310 --> 00:19:39.110 be the currency for a new tomorrow. Really? 00:19:39.350 --> 00:19:41.830 How do you tell what's real anymore? I mean, 00:19:42.870 --> 00:19:46.750 it's so easy now also to create your 00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:50.549 own footage of things. Grok can make that happen. 00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:54.830 I just saw some really wild things where it can make a still image come 00:19:54.830 --> 00:19:58.670 alive and make it do whatever you want it to do and it looks 00:19:58.670 --> 00:20:02.270 incredibly real. So I think, you know, 00:20:02.510 --> 00:20:06.390 people's own intuition is going to be where you have 00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:09.470 to start to rely on versus what you see. 00:20:10.590 --> 00:20:14.430 Or what you're told, right? Yes. Is the reality. 00:20:15.150 --> 00:20:18.750 Yes. Yes, it is definitely. 00:20:20.350 --> 00:20:23.870 Like, we've got to kind of come back to 00:20:23.950 --> 00:20:27.870 ourselves in a way and start building that intuition 00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:33.260 questioning, as you're saying before, like, am I. Am I being 00:20:33.260 --> 00:20:36.820 manipulated and stirred up for 00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:40.740 someone's purpose or not? Your team. 00:20:41.060 --> 00:20:44.900 Yeah. What I've seen, the leaders that have been able to do that 00:20:45.620 --> 00:20:49.220 are as referring back, deeply 00:20:49.220 --> 00:20:53.060 connected to their own, let's say, you know, 00:20:53.060 --> 00:20:56.980 inner wisdom, inner confidence, inner strength, 00:20:56.980 --> 00:21:00.880 inner. They know themselves well. And I think there's 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.840 a lot out there to help distract you from knowing yourself well. But you 00:21:04.840 --> 00:21:08.640 only know yourself well if you actually take some time to go within and 00:21:08.800 --> 00:21:12.320 make that pause to do so and helping people 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.960 get back to themselves. And you are your best guide, 00:21:17.040 --> 00:21:19.680 and you can be curious about what's going on 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.960 externally. But I think if we keep 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.880 relying on the external to tell us how we feel, 00:21:27.650 --> 00:21:31.530 we're just setting ourselves up for a world of hurt 00:21:31.530 --> 00:21:35.370 to come. As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you 00:21:35.370 --> 00:21:39.290 as. Yeah, yeah. The other way that we help people 00:21:39.290 --> 00:21:43.210 see the patterns for themselves and how 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:46.770 they might shift them is using music, actually. 00:21:47.090 --> 00:21:50.890 So I wrote a book called the Leaders Playlist, and it's how 00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:54.610 to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your 00:21:54.610 --> 00:21:58.340 leadership in your life. And I'm using music both figuratively 00:21:58.340 --> 00:22:02.260 and literally. So tying that back into what we just 00:22:02.260 --> 00:22:05.780 talked about, starting to discover what is that 00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:10.300 playlist that's no longer serving you? And 00:22:10.300 --> 00:22:14.300 because essentially what it is, it's a vibration. It's like a belief that 00:22:14.300 --> 00:22:18.180 you're putting out there that the world returns back to you. And so 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:22.020 music is incredibly powerful because it allows you to build 00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:25.970 new neural pathways more quickly and so allows you to create 00:22:25.970 --> 00:22:29.490 that new perspective both about yourself and about others 00:22:29.730 --> 00:22:33.010 by harnessing that power. So we. We, for 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:36.690 individuals, like, starting to learn what is that pattern that 00:22:36.690 --> 00:22:40.690 holds me back, and pairing that with some music to interrupt that 00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:44.210 pattern and then creating a new playlist of what the new 00:22:44.290 --> 00:22:47.970 belief needs to be and using music to help 00:22:48.290 --> 00:22:52.190 rewire that and groove it into the brain such that you 00:22:52.190 --> 00:22:55.830 have more access to it. That's some of the shifting that we do 00:22:56.150 --> 00:23:00.150 as well. So it's just a whole nother perspective on how 00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:04.710 shifts in mindset are possible. So. Right. Right. There's clearly 00:23:05.110 --> 00:23:09.030 metaphors in that. We. There are. And we can be much more 00:23:09.030 --> 00:23:12.950 intentional about the music we select by noticing its impact 00:23:12.950 --> 00:23:16.870 on us. How is it making you feel? What do you notice about that? 00:23:17.110 --> 00:23:21.060 You know, it was one example. When we go through a breakup, we 00:23:21.060 --> 00:23:23.820 often like to hear other sad songs because 00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:28.660 we're mirroring what we're feeling inside. Right. But then if we 00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:32.620 stay stuck there, that's where it becomes. So I had. 00:23:32.860 --> 00:23:36.660 There was a girlfriend who went through some tragedy in her life and, 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:40.460 you know, like six years later, her whole playlist was like sad songs. 00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:44.340 And I pointed it out to her and she's like, you know, you're right. I 00:23:44.340 --> 00:23:47.770 said, they're. They're sort of keeping you stuck in the past. Right. 00:23:49.050 --> 00:23:52.010 You're stuck in this pattern and you're 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:56.490 chipping over your past. When you need to be moving forward into 00:23:56.490 --> 00:24:00.330 your future. What do you want your future to be? And 00:24:01.770 --> 00:24:05.770 if you have that, let's create, like, what's that new 00:24:05.770 --> 00:24:09.410 playlist going to be? And she did and really 00:24:09.410 --> 00:24:13.060 transformed her life by this simple measure. 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:18.900 And it's time to break. Yes, absolutely. And so if I 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:22.780 translate that to an example of how. 00:24:22.780 --> 00:24:26.740 How do we use this in leadership? Right. Though I'll tell a storey. There 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:30.580 was a woman I worked with who, very talented, 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:34.580 chief marketing officer in a biotech company. And 00:24:34.820 --> 00:24:38.660 however she was having conflict with her peers 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:42.850 in the kind of C suite, the feedback that came back was that 00:24:42.850 --> 00:24:46.570 she was not being collaborative in a helpful 00:24:46.570 --> 00:24:50.530 way, wanting to kind of get. Would get upset if she wasn't invited to 00:24:50.530 --> 00:24:54.450 certain meetings or wasn't. Was left out of 00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:58.250 key communication. And of course, from her perspective, she's like, I'm the chief 00:24:58.490 --> 00:25:02.050 marketing officer, I need to know about these things in order for me to be 00:25:02.050 --> 00:25:06.010 effective. But what I was interested in, in what was the playlist she was playing 00:25:06.010 --> 00:25:09.720 that was having that show up in her experience. And so we started 00:25:09.800 --> 00:25:13.800 to look at where, you know, when I described to her, what is she 00:25:13.800 --> 00:25:16.680 feeling when this occurs and she's feeling frustration, 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.840 she's feeling like she's being excluded. 00:25:21.560 --> 00:25:25.560 And so I said, okay, well, let's look where else. Is this 00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:29.280 a familiar pattern to you? Have you felt this way before? Oh, 00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:32.680 yes. Right. We could go to the ex husband who 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.910 now had the lake house that she used to 00:25:36.910 --> 00:25:40.670 bring the kids to. They used to go as a family and now the kids 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:44.630 went with just him. And she. Every time they did that, she felt this same 00:25:44.630 --> 00:25:48.270 familiar pattern. Or we go further back when, you know, 00:25:48.590 --> 00:25:52.230 all of her experience, she could very clearly see 00:25:52.230 --> 00:25:56.150 places. She was sort of hypersensitive now to feelings 00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:59.390 where she realised she had a playlist called I am Excluded. 00:26:00.350 --> 00:26:04.040 And so what is her work to do in that is to recognise 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.080 that that's sort of like there's a patterning and what 00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:12.000 you look at expands. So she decided to have 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.920 a song focused particularly to recognise when she's in 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.920