Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 210 with
Joanne Lockwood: the title Fear as a Superpower.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and Privilege to welcome Dr. Gwen
Joanne Lockwood: Petrone. Gwen is a former US Marine sergeant,
Joanne Lockwood: author and coach who supports gender diverse people to transform
Joanne Lockwood: fear, anxiety and dysphoria into strengths
Joanne Lockwood: that shape resilience and self belief. When I asked Gwen
Joanne Lockwood: to describe her superpower, she said it is her ability to
Joanne Lockwood: see fear in slow motion. I love that. And
Joanne Lockwood: repurpose it from something that debilitates into something that
Joanne Lockwood: creates strength, clarity and growth. Hello, Gwen,
Joanne Lockwood: welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, good to see you. Good. I'll say good morning
Dr. Gwen Petrone: here in Florida and hi everybody. Still good morning here in the uk. So
Joanne Lockwood: we're both the same side of the midday at the moment for another 10
Joanne Lockwood: minutes. So Florida, the Sunshine
Joanne Lockwood: State, is it, is it sunny there today? It is currently sun
Dr. Gwen Petrone: coming up, so it'll be sunny soon. Thank goodness. It's so cold out right now.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Cold is all relative. So our whole country is going through a big deep
Dr. Gwen Petrone: freeze over the last week. But in Florida, you know, it warms up a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: little bit, so. So I love it. I used to be in New York City.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So all the, the winter and the cold and the snow and the northeast kind
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of stuff, I got over that after so many years. I just said, I'm getting
Dr. Gwen Petrone: out of here, I'm going down south, I want to be warmer.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Oh, 35 years in New York. I moved to Florida about five years ago. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: because I remember being in New York in, in the November time.
Joanne Lockwood: I think it was just after Thanksgiving one year and I was surprised how
Joanne Lockwood: bitterly cold it was. You know, the, the wind that whistles through the
Joanne Lockwood: skyscrapers, the just the temperature and considering was it New York
Joanne Lockwood: is south of Paris. It's, it's, it's quite a way south even from the uk.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a lot colder than I was expecting. Well, what happens is you have.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: New York is very vertical, right? Yes. So if you get the wind in just
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the right angle, it' just shoot down the corridors of the streets, whether
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's the avenues or the streets, and it'll pick up speed and just focus. Right.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's a big wind tunnel in certain areas. So yeah, I used to like to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: walk around Central park, which is really very beautiful and many, many
Dr. Gwen Petrone: times. And you get that, you get that wind because it's over there. There's no
Dr. Gwen Petrone: building. So it'll, it'll just pick up speed and get a nice breeze. So.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I mean, it's like the Pogue song, isn't it? Fairytale in New York at
Joanne Lockwood: Christmas time. It's a very magical city at Christmas with all the lights in the
Joanne Lockwood: trees. And the, it's, it's Christmas time and. Thanks. Living time is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: beautiful. Except about an hour after it snows, then it gets dirty.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yes, it gets dirty real quick when it's snowing and, or icing or
Dr. Gwen Petrone: whatever. It looks really, really, really beautiful. And then you have Rockefeller
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Centre with a tree and, and all the lights and all the, the shopping and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's, it's a magical time. But as you say, you're
Joanne Lockwood: in Florida now. And my memory of Florida was back in, I think it's
Joanne Lockwood: 2004, when I, I took our family for a standard
Joanne Lockwood: Disney experience, Universal Studios. I remember
Joanne Lockwood: my biggest memory of the time was the humidity was the
Joanne Lockwood: first thing that really struck me. But also the lightning, the thunder
Joanne Lockwood: and lightning, the fault lightning, the power of that
Joanne Lockwood: nature that was going on overhead. But you must
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have gone in July or August or something. It was, it's probably July time.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That's brutal. Yeah, June, July, August is not fun over here. But all the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: other months are great. Yes. I have a twin sister and she would
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go and have her family there and her daughter and she was the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: grandma so she had to watch all the kids. And so she was designated
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to do that. She says not doing that anymore. Not doing that anymore. No more.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'm the babysitter and it's humid and her and I, we don't get moist, we
Dr. Gwen Petrone: sweat. So it's just, it's just like, you know. So she says,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: no more in August, no more in July. Grandma, don't do it. Us
Joanne Lockwood: Brits, we perspire. Yeah. We perspire, we don't sweat. Yes,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: right. Profusely, yes. So
Joanne Lockwood: as I was reading out your superpower and I comment on the bit,
Joanne Lockwood: seeing fear in slow motion, and that conjures up this vision in my
Joanne Lockwood: head of that scene in the Matrix where Neo has finally
Joanne Lockwood: grasped who he is, what the Matrix is all about. And he's
Joanne Lockwood: now able to now cut through all of that kind of social construct and the.
Joanne Lockwood: When, when was it Mr. Anderson fires a bullet at him, he's able to see
Joanne Lockwood: it in slow motion as the ball holds it and stops
Joanne Lockwood: and able to freeze time. Is that the metaphor that you know, that that
Joanne Lockwood: creates for you as well? Yeah, it, it's, it doesn't. Normally you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: don't have something like that. It's. And this is really cultivated when I went into
Dr. Gwen Petrone: service and I was in the Marine Corps, is they, they. And that's what my,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: my book Dysphoria Hacks is really honing in on, is the lessons learned
Dr. Gwen Petrone: from that and then how you can desensitise yourself
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to certain things. So this way you don't do what it's expecting you to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: do. And then you can freeze time and slow it down. So this way you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: can see things that would normally scare other people or
Dr. Gwen Petrone: frighten other people and remould it to your purpose and thus
Dr. Gwen Petrone: use it as a positive. And thus I say see things in slow motion.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And that comes very handy in sports. I was
Dr. Gwen Petrone: always very good in sports. Muscles. Soccer, baseball, football, everything.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Everybody's freaking out and running, really. And I would see things in slow
Dr. Gwen Petrone: motion. I'd like looking and I'm scanning and making decisions when other people are
Dr. Gwen Petrone: freaking out. And then they're like, how did you do that? And. Well, because you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have a. You calm down and your mind is calmer. And then the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: business, business arena. As a CEO of my own company for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a few decades, people freaking out and everything, and you're seeing things come. You don't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: want to get too high or too low and you want to make rational decisions
Dr. Gwen Petrone: based on overall the common good of the company, so to speak.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And so that's what I mean is seeing things in slow. The slow motion is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you learn, analyse the situation, see what's really happening
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and then you understand what's happening to be able to repurpose it
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to your. Your purposes. Yeah. So being a Marine sergeant, do you
Joanne Lockwood: see active duty? Yeah, well, I, I was in. During a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: time that it was like right in between different things that were happening. So I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: didn't see action, but I was in a technical field, so in,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: in cryptographic electronics. So I jokingly say if I told you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: exactly what I did, I'd have to kill you. So I don't want to do
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that. But yeah, it was, I was, I did electronics on cryptographic machines
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that were coding and decoding and sending messages and all that kind of stuff.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So I was, I was in a bunker, you know, or a, you know, four
Dr. Gwen Petrone: foot metal bunker where people couldn't get in. And when they trained us on all
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that stuff, we, they wouldn't let us take notes or anything, you know, because they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: didn't want anything getting out. So we would learn and then it would have to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: leave everything there and then, then we can go out and back to our, our
Dr. Gwen Petrone: place where we were staying. So it was pretty secretive.
Joanne Lockwood: So were you utilising this equipment or were you supporting, maintaining
Joanne Lockwood: and designing it? I was supporting and maintaining it, yeah. Yeah,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I made sure it worked if something went wrong, that I was able to go
Dr. Gwen Petrone: in and do electronic stuff to be able to fix it and. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Sort out circuit boards and recalibrate and. My background's
Joanne Lockwood: electronics. I was in the Royal Air Force in the UK as a
Joanne Lockwood: electronics engineer working on radars and radio and airborne stuff. Well,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it was funny that we, we were working on, we were using.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: On older machines that were using tubes and things like that and they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: never wanted to really get rid of it because it worked, it worked really well.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And, and some of the electronics in today's age, they can hack and so on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and that type of thing. They really couldn't do that. So they kept them around
Dr. Gwen Petrone: for whatever purposes. So if something would break or, you know, a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: tube would, would burn out or something, I have to be able to research that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: where's it coming from, where's it going and be able to try to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: scope out and get that part that may not be readily available, that type of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: thing. Yeah, it's very interesting.
Joanne Lockwood: Those analogue error. Not susceptible to electromagnetic pulses
Joanne Lockwood: and the like, are they? They're very resilient. Exactly. So it came in handy for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: whatever purposes they wanted it for. So usually it was setting coded
Dr. Gwen Petrone: messages and, you know, whatever secretive things they did. And I really didn't get into
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that stuff. I just had to make it work. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I remember my time with it recognising that some of the voltages
Joanne Lockwood: on that valve technology is 3,000 volts or something, or 3 kilovolts
Joanne Lockwood: on the anode. And you think that burns if you touch it?
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah, it's like clear. It is.
Joanne Lockwood: And the capacitors are holding massive charges, aren't they? You've got to be careful you're
Joanne Lockwood: not electric yourself off a capacitor. So,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, sorry, we're diving off into the wrong direction. So coming back to
Joanne Lockwood: being able to use this as a resilience, as a strength and slowing down
Joanne Lockwood: so that you can really observe what's going
Joanne Lockwood: on without your chimp brain or your amygdala kicking in, you want to bring this
Joanne Lockwood: into your prefrontal cortex where you really kind of understand what's going on. How
Joanne Lockwood: did you, how did you. Was that the military that taught you that or was
Joanne Lockwood: that a kind of a life, life lesson you learned as you, as you grew?
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's funny you mentioned that because it's, it's, I would say the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: military magnified that. But I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: had that type of personality where in any kind of stressful situation,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the best way I can explain it, and it comes in handy for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: certain situations and it's a pain in the ass for other situations if
Dr. Gwen Petrone: something stressful would happen. The way I feel is I'm in a shower and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the water comes over me and this is emotion, right? The water comes
Dr. Gwen Petrone: over me and I feel it leave my body and it's like, it's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like all the emotion rinses off and I go calm,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: relax, and I feel nothing, right? So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I get very unemotional and I get very analytical. So it's like I have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a entrepreneurial business brain and I have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: an artistic brain. Shocker. So I kind of have both. And I've learned
Dr. Gwen Petrone: more now to turn it on and turn it off. But back then it was,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it was just happening. And in the, in the Marines,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it allowed me to focus in on that. And I, later on in
Dr. Gwen Petrone: life, when I wrote my book and fine tuned it a little bit
Dr. Gwen Petrone: more, was, I call it domesticating fear. So it's. We
Dr. Gwen Petrone: talked about earlier dogs, right? You domesticate the dog where you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: try to get out the instinct of the dog. So this way it doesn't just
Dr. Gwen Petrone: run for the car or it doesn't just do something and you, you kind of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: get that out. And that takes systematic and long
Dr. Gwen Petrone: term training to be able to do that. And then you also do that to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: fear. You can systematically get what you don't want in you,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: out of you, and more control it. It'll always be there, but you control it.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So this way it's not a master of you, you become a master of it
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and then you can repurpose it to your advantage. So, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I say many Times in dysphoria with people, trans people such as
Dr. Gwen Petrone: myself, is. It's a pressure that builds up in you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and through whatever your trigger points are, whether it's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: misgendering or it's a situation or it's whatever. When I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: first started dressing female, it was a pressure that I feel and I had to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: let it out. I just had to let it out. And that was the dysphoria
Dr. Gwen Petrone: inside of me getting like that. And now it's. I call it in my book,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I call it the pressure valve situation. The pressure valve technique, where
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's like a plumber. You have to let the steam out. So you have to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have a valve to let the steam out. Otherwise it builds, it builds, it builds.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And then you hurt yourself or you hurt other people, right? Because you. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you explode, right? And you don't want to explode. You got to let. You got
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to let it out, and you got to let it out in the right situation.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So this way the pressure goes down. And then
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I would dress female, I would feel so much better. And now it's like the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: pressure was gone. So people can use that in certain
Dr. Gwen Petrone: situations. And that was one of the reasons why I really wanted to write
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that book, was I wanted to help people. And that there's so many
Dr. Gwen Petrone: people who commit suicide that hurt themselves or hurt other people. And if I could
Dr. Gwen Petrone: just save some lives. Lives. Or have them get control of that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: issue that they're going through, then it just makes it all worthwhile.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: While for me to be able to do that. The same thing with veterans.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Veterans. As many as 6,000 veterans a year in
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the United States commit suicide. I was shocked that the number was so high.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And because they can't deal with the PTSD and all the other
Dr. Gwen Petrone: pressures. So that's another project I'm working on, is to be able to help them.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: How do you deal with that? And using those techniques to deal with that as
Dr. Gwen Petrone: well too, to allow them to diffuse that and to be able to calm
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and make better decisions. Most. Most humans, in my understanding,
Joanne Lockwood: have a fear of the unknown, the fear of next.
Joanne Lockwood: That's the biggest debilitator, isn't it? This unfounded fear.
Joanne Lockwood: This. And people are worried about, anxious about being humiliated, being
Joanne Lockwood: rejected, being all these things. And you know, as you. As you put it there,
Joanne Lockwood: one of the big challenges of people who have gender dysphoria, agenda,
Joanne Lockwood: diverse or not, does. Don't conform to the stereotypical version of
Joanne Lockwood: what's expected, have this fear of unwrapping themselves,
Joanne Lockwood: taking the COVID off and showing the world who they are. And
Joanne Lockwood: it could be really insurmountable that. That barrier to doing that.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Oh, it's, It's. It's a ve. You know, it's.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I don't want to diminish it because it's a big barrier, but once you cross
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it, you're like, oh, that wasn't that bad. Is that. It was like,
Joanne Lockwood: paper thin. Yeah, it's like paper. I was like, is that it? But there's the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: barrier. Once you break through, I call it the terror barrier. And whatever
Dr. Gwen Petrone: your terror barrier is, once you break through that, you're like, oh, I feel so
Dr. Gwen Petrone: much better. But then there's another terror barrier, and it never goes away. It's always
Dr. Gwen Petrone: there. You're just expanding your comfort zone. You're domesticating that fear,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and you're domesticated further and further and further. So one of the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: techniques that you do in the military is you do it. You keep
Dr. Gwen Petrone: on doing something so that this way you desensitise yourself to it and you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: run. You can run toward the fear instead of a waste. Whatever scares you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and whatever happens to be, if you can do it little by little. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so one of the things that I do all the time is like, okay, have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I done this before? Does this really scare me? I want to do it because
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's going to allow me to expand. So then if I. If I'm in another
Dr. Gwen Petrone: situation, then I'm like, wow, if I. If I did
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that, I could do that. And that's. That's what we call the stoic philosophy,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: too. Stoicism, if you've ever followed that. Well, the. The philosophy of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: stoicism is do as much of what scares you. So this way, when something
Dr. Gwen Petrone: else happens, you're like, if I did that, I could do that. So. So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: these, all these techniques are universal, and we just kind of put them together to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: allow people to get a handle on it. Yeah, but it boils down to it
Joanne Lockwood: is what are you scared of? Is it rejection? Is it this? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it the other? And what other people think? That's a big one.
Joanne Lockwood: I think from my experience and personal experience and the people
Joanne Lockwood: I've met and known before, is that. Actually, one of my friends said this to
Joanne Lockwood: me. He said, you can't have your cake and eat it. You have to make
Joanne Lockwood: a decision. If that's what you want, that's what you want. You can't have a
Joanne Lockwood: foot in every camp and hedge your bets. At some point, you have to
Joanne Lockwood: decide because the people around you want to know who you are
Joanne Lockwood: as well. Because if you're not careful, what you end up being is indeterminate.
Joanne Lockwood: And people need, in our human society, they need to understand who people are. They
Joanne Lockwood: want to put you in a box somehow. And people appreciate that. They want you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to be authentic, right? Yeah, they want you to be authentic. And right now the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Internet is so, I mean, AI is really cool, but after a while I'm
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like, I feel duped. I feel duped. Like, like, oh,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that's an AI picture. I thought it was really cool at the beginning. And then
Dr. Gwen Petrone: after a while I'm like, you know, I feel like I'm being tricked a little
Dr. Gwen Petrone: bit, and I want authenticity and just, just let it out.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Just, just be you. And I'd rather see that and all the bumps in the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: warts and all of that kind of thing. I'd rather see that than, than have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: something look perfect. But it's all fake, right? Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm with you on that. I, I, I didn't transition about
Joanne Lockwood: 12, 13 years ago, if you want to put a mark on it. And in
Joanne Lockwood: those days, there was less face tuning and
Joanne Lockwood: editing, and Photoshop skills were, were not as advanced. I mean, today
Joanne Lockwood: I see people who have forensically or AI altered their
Joanne Lockwood: photos and their images. Be yourself. Be yourself. Because otherwise, when you go out
Joanne Lockwood: in the real world, when you go and meet people, I have to come out
Joanne Lockwood: each time. Whereas if you're just publicly you all the time, there's never,
Joanne Lockwood: there's no two versions. And I remember thinking to myself, I didn't want a gender
Joanne Lockwood: transition to become somebody else. I wanted to come gender transition to become
Joanne Lockwood: myself and one version and not have 15 versions of me, just
Joanne Lockwood: have one version. So if I'm massaging how you see me
Joanne Lockwood: online, I'm, I'm faking it again. I spent
Joanne Lockwood: 40, 50 years faking it. I don't do that anymore. Yeah, and so many people,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they see like a little bitty clip of somebody and they think that's their whole
Dr. Gwen Petrone: life. It's really not. But I went on a, I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like cruises. So I went on a cruise just a week or two ago, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a lot of business people, and we joint venture together and talk to people, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I talked to someone, two or three people, and I had
Dr. Gwen Petrone: one of those aha moments because I, you know, I never hated being
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a guy. I enjoyed being a guy, but I really, really enjoyed
Dr. Gwen Petrone: being female. So for me, it was more of a fluid type of thing. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: for many people, they felt like myself, they felt like there
Dr. Gwen Petrone: were a female in A male body, and they just gotta get out. And that's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: fine, because everybody's different. I felt more of a yin and yang, where the Most.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: The first 60 years of my life, the male side was more
Dr. Gwen Petrone: dominant. And then after that, the female side became more dominant because that's.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I fed into that and I rediscovered Read and I. And over
Dr. Gwen Petrone: those years, I was pushing my male side away because I wanted to be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Gwen and have her bloom. And he says, listen,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you can be even more powerful, stronger,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: better, a better person if you embrace the positive
Dr. Gwen Petrone: sides of your male Persona into your female Persona, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you become that much better. So you can become a unicorn. You're. You're blooming as
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a female, as close to female as you can be. And. But you're also taking
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the attributes of the. Of your male self that you like, like, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: now you become even more than you could separate. And I was like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: wow, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. And so, because I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: was trying to escape my. My life as a guy and said, I want to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: be female, and I'm just trying to get into this. This life and change. Change
Dr. Gwen Petrone: my name and do the female stuff that. Everything we do. And I said, well,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you know, I did, like, some stuff as a guy, and I. I did have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: some very strong, strong things that I did as Peter. And then I can bring
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that over to be female. And so many people
Dr. Gwen Petrone: can use that one. Storey, I'll tell you, is that I saw an interview
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of a Olympic downhill skier, and he was
Dr. Gwen Petrone: pretty good. And he said, listen, I'm gay.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And he never told anybody. And he said that limited me because, like you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: said, he was hiding from everybody. And see
Dr. Gwen Petrone: what he was straddling two worlds. So you're almost like, separating yourself and, like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you're saying being authentic and being yourself. And he said, once I told everybody,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it released that burden from him, and it became so much better
Dr. Gwen Petrone: because he didn't have that weight on him all the time. And such as
Dr. Gwen Petrone: people like ourselves or anybody that wants to be authentic, be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: yourself. People appreciate that. And yes, you're gonna shed
Dr. Gwen Petrone: some people that don't want that, but you're gonna gain so many more people that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: appreciate that. Yeah, I think we said it earlier that people like authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: They like to know who you are. Our social constructs work better that way.
Joanne Lockwood: And also, you yourself have
Joanne Lockwood: one voice in your head. One identity, one thing. Okay,
Joanne Lockwood: we wear different hats in different situations, but I spent much of my life
Joanne Lockwood: with two conflicting halves of my head trying to have different
Joanne Lockwood: conversations. One of the things I found when I aligned
Joanne Lockwood: was my head became really, really quiet and one, one
Joanne Lockwood: voice, one thought, one me. Whereas in the past I've always
Joanne Lockwood: had these two elements. And that was the biggest notice to me. The silence I
Joanne Lockwood: had in my head was incredible. And the clarity
Joanne Lockwood: that I had allowed me to go, whoa. This is my Matrix moment
Joanne Lockwood: when I go, whoa. I see the world clearly now. I'm not trying to double
Joanne Lockwood: think everything. I'm not trying to go, oh, should I say that? How am I
Joanne Lockwood: thinking that? What am I doing now? I'm just me. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: incredibly powerful. And you don't have to gender transition to do that. You just got
Joanne Lockwood: to find yourself. But you have the male and a female and one's more dominant
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and the other one becomes more dominant. But then you're. You have the most separate.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Put it like that, and you merge them together and then it's like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's like it becomes in focus. Like you said, the Matrix happens, right? And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you can see clearly, oh, this is what's really happening. You could do that and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: combine them. At least I combine them. So many people want to totally separate, which
Dr. Gwen Petrone: is fine. And that's for other people's. Hey, whatever, Whatever floats
Dr. Gwen Petrone: your body. If you're gender fluid, you have no fixed sense of gender,
Joanne Lockwood: then it may well be that those elements of your identity never
Joanne Lockwood: mix. They stay disparate potions. And you're able to bring them in and out
Joanne Lockwood: of focus as you need to. And if you can exist that way,
Joanne Lockwood: that's absolutely wonderful. I just found that it would just bend in my
Joanne Lockwood: mind. I was losing it. And have you
Joanne Lockwood: seen that Disney Pixar film Inside Out? We've got the little
Joanne Lockwood: characters in the girl's head. And that really was the metaphor
Joanne Lockwood: of what I was feeling. The little angry character, the little angry red
Joanne Lockwood: character was driving my head for most of my life. And then suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: Joy took over and I went, this is me. Joy is now
Joanne Lockwood: driving my brain. Everything is orientated around the joy. The female character, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, not the little angry red man. Okay, the little angry red man.
Joanne Lockwood: All anxiety and fear, all those other things still in my head. But Joy is
Joanne Lockwood: the driver. It's a feminine Persona. And that kind of
Joanne Lockwood: really, really struck me when I was watching that film. That's so true. And I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: never thought about it. But there's some people around me here, they know me
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and they've seen me as a guy and they've seen me as Gwen and they've
Dr. Gwen Petrone: seen the years of evolution that I've had. And they said, you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: know, as a guy, we like you, but
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you're very reserved and you're quiet and you don't. But as Gwen, you're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like. You're almost like you, like you. And I said, the only way I can
Dr. Gwen Petrone: explain it is as a guy, I see things in black and white because I'm
Dr. Gwen Petrone: reserved. As a woman, I see things in colour. I just bloom and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: my personality comes out more. I'm more bubbly, I'm more interactive with people.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's just like I release. Everything's released and I become more
Dr. Gwen Petrone: authentically of who that I feel that I am. And then I pick a few
Dr. Gwen Petrone: things that I like as a guy and I stick it in there, you know,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: use it as I see fit and then to enhance, so to speak.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The other thing I figured out back in those early stages,
Joanne Lockwood: about 10, 15 years ago, was trying to define who I was again. I think
Joanne Lockwood: for so many years, I tried to aspire
Joanne Lockwood: to a stereotypical view of femininity, or
Joanne Lockwood: probably one that I'd held in my head since my teens. And then
Joanne Lockwood: I realised that I was chasing this ideal that
Joanne Lockwood: the world wasn't really embracing. And I realised most women I knew were
Joanne Lockwood: running the other way as I was running that way. And I thought, hang on
Joanne Lockwood: a minute. I need to park myself here for a minute and actually figure out
Joanne Lockwood: who I am, not figure out my. The stereotype. And
Joanne Lockwood: that really helped. I. I started acting my age. I was 53
Joanne Lockwood: at the time. I thought, hang on a minute. I'm not 19 anymore. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: have to do this, I don't have to do that. I can be. I can
Joanne Lockwood: wear jeans, I can wear slacks and trainers, and I can, I can
Joanne Lockwood: not bother putting my bra on one day if I don't want to. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: I can be like every other woman out there. And when I
Joanne Lockwood: realised I didn't have to live by rules that I'd invented
Joanne Lockwood: in my head, again, it simplified that vision
Joanne Lockwood: for me. Just, just to go, it must be me. Did you. Have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you. Did you know your entire life, or was it something that more. You realised
Dr. Gwen Petrone: later on in life? We're, we're not too dissimilar in age. And, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, you look back in the early 70s, there was no, no language to describe
Joanne Lockwood: it, but no something there. Yeah, I, I,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: when I was 12, 13, 14, 15, I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: would look at a. Because I'm very heterosexual, so
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I would look at a woman, I'd be like, she's gorgeous. I want to do
Dr. Gwen Petrone: her, you know, hormones, right? Then I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: look at her, I'm like, I wonder what it's like to be her. Wow. I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: wonder what it's like to be pretty. And I would find it fascinating to flip
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the script and to put myself in that situation. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I did that for a number of years. And nobody's home, and I'm putting on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: female clothes. And I was looking for that. I was searching for that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: feeling. But in the 70s, nobody to talk to, no Internet, no way to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: find out anything. And I. I'm like, okay. I feel alone. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so then I told you my personality happened was that I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: compartmentized it. And I just shut it off and I. I forgot for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: 45 years. Didn't remember. And when I was 59, my wife at
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the time, we. We're still married 35 years, and she says, we're gonna go out
Dr. Gwen Petrone: for Halloween. I'm like, okay. She says, I'm dress you female. And I'm like, why?
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Because I didn't remember. And. And that's after the Marines, right? I. I didn't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: remember. I'm like, why? Then she dressed me female. And I'm like, I was really
Dr. Gwen Petrone: nervous. I had such a great time of like, wow. Why did it. Because
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I coach people too. I'm like, wow, what did I have a good, great time.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And as a coach, a mentor teaches what they know. And a coach pulls things
Dr. Gwen Petrone: out of you that's already there, and they ask questions. So I'm asking questions of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: myself and I'm peeling the onion. I'm like. And after about an hour, I'm like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: oh, my God, I forgot. I forgot. I used to do that.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And so that lit the fire again and re germinated Gwen, that was
Dr. Gwen Petrone: already, like, she was sleeping. She was there, but sleeping. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so fast forward. Then little by little, and now that Gwen
Dr. Gwen Petrone: started to overtake the male side. And then after a number of years, I'm like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you know, I'd rather. I really want to be female full time. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: then I just took the next. I went over the red line, so to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: speak, versus just cross dressing, and the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: rest is history. So I feel. I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: feel me, the new me. So that's kind of how
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I see it. Yeah, I don't think I was ever
Joanne Lockwood: sleeping or away, but I was able to
Joanne Lockwood: function in the other direction as
Joanne Lockwood: a male Persona for 30, 40 years. Have family,
Joanne Lockwood: have kids, get house. Stoicism, that
Joanne Lockwood: drive to provide that expectations. And then in my
Joanne Lockwood: 40s, I guess with the advent of
Joanne Lockwood: knowledge and familiarity and understanding and meeting
Joanne Lockwood: other People I realised that my storey was
Joanne Lockwood: in there and it needs to be told. And I was lucky. My wife was
Joanne Lockwood: and still is supportive and we've been married for
Joanne Lockwood: 38 and a bit years, 40 plus years together, a couple of
Joanne Lockwood: kids. So yeah, I've been very fortunate that I've
Joanne Lockwood: able to move on in my life with the love and support of people around
Joanne Lockwood: me. Yeah, me too. We've been married 35 years together
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and I count my blessings that she said,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: listen, I know you, I love you, I know you, we're going to die
Dr. Gwen Petrone: together. And that you are you and you evolve. But this is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a presentation of how I feel inside. And she's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: okay with that. That's beautiful. I appreciate,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I appreciate many, many people,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they don't get that luxury and people just feel like adios and they're gone.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I, I write a lot on Facebook, like really long stuff because I like to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: write. I wrote one piece that says,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it just says the word of the day is lonely and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: because when I go out and if I meet other trans people or gender non
Dr. Gwen Petrone: conforming people, I talk to them because I'm trying to get information and for maybe
Dr. Gwen Petrone: ideas for writing stuff and they're like, they're stunningly beautiful and they're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like, listen, I, I can get sex anytime I want because many, many people,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they want the fantasy of being with them and they said, but I can't,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: can't get a boyfriend because they don't want to be seen in public with them.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So they have so many people around them, but they're so lonely.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And that's why I said, I count my blessing because I have my family and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: my wife and, and so on, and then I have that blessing in that area
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to be able to have that. But that, that loneliness is a big thing to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: try to overcome internal loneliness, you know? Yeah. And that
Joanne Lockwood: fear, that barrier, that fear at the beginning, it's that fear of being alone
Joanne Lockwood: and being lonely is, is real, you know, the fear of
Joanne Lockwood: losing everything. Yeah. It's not losing the material things, it's losing the emotional
Joanne Lockwood: things, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I live, I live here in Florida
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and for five years I don't think I've met one person, one trans person like
Dr. Gwen Petrone: myself. I don't bump into them at all. So I have to go to events
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that we go and congregate like friends that I know online that I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: see and we'll go to an event, either we'll go to a cruise together or
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go to go out to a dinner Together or we'll go to an event like
Dr. Gwen Petrone: there's one coming up next month in Pennsylvania. There's like 500 people. We just
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go, we just take over to town, right. Pennsylvania, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: just able to physically touch other people that think as you do and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that are like you and like, oh, I'm not alone. Right. And that kind of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: sets you off at least for the next year until you can do that again
Dr. Gwen Petrone: with other people. So that connection is vitally important to be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: able to connect with people, even if it's for dinner or just go out shopping
Dr. Gwen Petrone: with someone or have a lunch with someone. It's, it's important for that human connection
Dr. Gwen Petrone: with other people. I figure that is often we're quite different from people who
Joanne Lockwood: are from the LGB spectrum because they tend to find that people
Joanne Lockwood: who are gay or lesbian, they want to go clubbing, they want to go to
Joanne Lockwood: same sex or same gender events a lot more. But
Joanne Lockwood: I don't crave the environment,
Joanne Lockwood: the queer, the gay environment, because I crave
Joanne Lockwood: everyday life. I crave CIS world, hetero world, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: it may be, because I've not orientated myself around my
Joanne Lockwood: identity in that way. I just want to get on and be like everybody else.
Joanne Lockwood: So I don't feel that same allegiance to a flag or to a club or
Joanne Lockwood: to a, to a, to a movement. I just want to be accepted for being
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne, the woman who goes shopping, who goes to work, who does
Joanne Lockwood: this and does that. But you're right, I do have this
Joanne Lockwood: need to have some close friends who I, who I see
Joanne Lockwood: not regularly, maybe twice, three times a year for dinner, for lunch, or if
Joanne Lockwood: we bump into each other or do have a good natter. But I don't feel
Joanne Lockwood: the need to segregate myself into a trans space.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I do the same thing. I do the same thing. I want to connect with
Dr. Gwen Petrone: them on occasion, but I don't necessarily have to. Being trans is not
Dr. Gwen Petrone: who I am. It's just part of me. I look, it's what I call normal
Dr. Gwen Petrone: trans. I call it normal trans, whatever that means is this. I want to be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a good neighbour. I want to be assimilating to society. Someone
Dr. Gwen Petrone: doesn't see this, they just say, oh, you're just Gwen.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And like when I go on a cruise, a lot of times I have people
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that look at me, they look at my wife goes, they're looking, they're staring at
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you. I'm like 6 foot 5 in heels.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I don't blend, say, gwen, don't blend. And eventually I'm in the hot tub or
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they're in the hot tub. And it gets around to talking, talking. And it's my
Dr. Gwen Petrone: opportunity to get them to ask about me because I want to tell. I want
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to talk to them, and I want to shed
Dr. Gwen Petrone: misconceptions for people. And inevitably it always gets down to, wow, you're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: nothing like I thought you would be. And what I thought you would be is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: always something that's driven by the media, because how often do they really meet someone
Dr. Gwen Petrone: like me? And so what their misconception is driven by
Dr. Gwen Petrone: other things, and usually that's not good. And because the media
Dr. Gwen Petrone: is usually driven by clicks and eyeballs and money, so they're showing
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the fantastical parts and sometimes not the good parts.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And the 95% in the middle that want to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: be good people and be us and be good neighbours, they don't see, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they're like, wow, you're actually pretty funny. Wow, you're actually pretty nice.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And they got to know me, and then we're joking and we're laughing and having
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a great time, but we get to loosen up together. So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: next time, when they meet someone such as myself, they cut them a break. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they don't kind of judge as much as they may have before because they met
Dr. Gwen Petrone: me and they're like, oh, okay, she was pretty cool. And so, you know,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: changing perceptions one person at a time is one of my goals.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And it's. That's actually quite a burden, though, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Feeling responsible for being the best version of you.
Joanne Lockwood: To represent not only yourself, but other people who've
Joanne Lockwood: fit into the category that you fit in and not letting
Joanne Lockwood: down the side. That's a big responsibility for anyone to adopt, isn't it?
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah, it is. I mean, you want to be yourself and you're responsible for yourself,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: but you also have a larger responsibility for the community that you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: live in. You want to leave a good mark to other people. So, yeah, that's.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I try to do that as much as I can, and I do that through
Dr. Gwen Petrone: how I carry myself. And I mean, when I go out around where
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I live, there's. I like. I like live music and I like, like to go
Dr. Gwen Petrone: dancing. And so we go out and a lot of people and my friends are.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: They're like, you go where you go there. And it's a very cisgender place. I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: mean, it's like almost like cowboy R Truckers kind of thing. And I'm like.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'm like. And. But it's one of the things in psychology is.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Is you tend to get more of what you think about and what you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: anticipate. So if you go in anticipating problems, you anticipate
Dr. Gwen Petrone: negative things happening, getting misgendered or getting ticked off or whatever, you're going to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: get more because your brain sees that, because it's what it's looking for. So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I go in to any situation, I look and I looking for the good
Dr. Gwen Petrone: in people first and I expect to be treated well. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I go in with confidence and I go in with a smile and I laugh
Dr. Gwen Petrone: with people and it brings down the walls and they just, they treat me totally
Dr. Gwen Petrone: different because I, I break that, I break that ice barrier.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So this way they're like, you're pretty cool. And so I never have any problems
Dr. Gwen Petrone: anywhere. I go with people. Plus I'm pretty imposing. I'm, I'm not small,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so I could probably defend myself with people, but I don't go in looking for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that. And if you carry yourself in and you go in with confidence and you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go in with a smile and you're expecting to be treated well, and so I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: am. You look at the media, your media, our media, this side of the
Joanne Lockwood: pond, global media, there's a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: misinterpretation, a lot of misrepresentation, a lot of myths, a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypes that are amplified, as you say, for eyeballs,
Joanne Lockwood: clicks and revenue. How is day to day life? I would
Joanne Lockwood: imagine on my side of the pond that Florida
Joanne Lockwood: is one of the worst places in the U.S. i mean, it's all relative. There
Joanne Lockwood: are lots of places in the US that are probably as bad or different. But
Joanne Lockwood: is day to day life positive and okay for
Joanne Lockwood: a trans woman as yourself? Yeah, I've been here for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: five years, never had a problem, and I'm in a 55 or older
Dr. Gwen Petrone: community, never had a problem. Now, it's not to say that everybody's going to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: invite me over for lunch, we're not going to braid each other's hair. But
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they smile and say goodbye morning and everything. So superficially they're cool.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: But that, but in that community in Florida, there's people from all over the United
Dr. Gwen Petrone: States and internationally that come and they retire over here. So there's, there's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: an older population and they're from, they're from all over, not just
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Florida. So I'm going to get people from all varieties of people. So in our
Dr. Gwen Petrone: community, I don't think there's any trans people, but there's some gay, lesbian couples
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and so on here, not many, but a few, and people from all walks of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: life. So I get Everything. So see, I'm, I'm a talk of the cool of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the pickleball court. I'm like, you know, whatever, you know, but when I, when I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go out, it's, you know, some of the clubs over here are very. What I.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: They're very deep red. They call it red. Yes. Yeah,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: deep red. I'm like, you know, I don't care. I just,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I see, I, like I said, I see people. I judge them based on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: them first and I judge them based on energy, how I feel around them
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and, and I don't put myself in bad situations to, to worry about it so
Dr. Gwen Petrone: much. Um, and I, I decide. It's important to decide
Dr. Gwen Petrone: where you're going to plant your flag and, and fight to the death and what's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: not worth it. Sometimes
Dr. Gwen Petrone: something I'll get all the time, I'll walk up and someone and some out of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a knee jerk reaction, they'll go, oh, thank you, sir. And I'm like,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: okay, that's not worth planting my flag on. Right. It's just,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I look at it as, that's human reaction. I'm big. I got man hands.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Okay? I'm big. My voice, you know, and they make these snap
Dr. Gwen Petrone: decisions and then after they look and they're, oh, thank you, ma'. Am. And they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: change, you know, because they made it, they made that snap knee jerk decision and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you cut people a break. I just cut people a break. And. But when someone's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: trying to be a, how I was going to put it, a dick about it.
Joanne Lockwood: Dick. Yeah. You know, that's when I get pissed because I can tell,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you know, so, so. But that luckily happens very, very rare.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And you just decide where you want to plant your flag. So. But
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I find that most people, the vast majority of people, and even in Florida, they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: just want to live and let live. They want to, they want to be. They
Dr. Gwen Petrone: want to live and let live. Just don't impose it on them, whatever it is,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you know, just don't oppose them. Just live and let live. You know,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you have your life, I have my life. We can be friends. We're good, we're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: cool. That's. That's how I find most people are living their life.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I mean, as a Brit, you know, I used to do work from time
Joanne Lockwood: to time in the States. I'd do a conference, I go and speak out there.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd host a, host a conference or something. But in
Joanne Lockwood: the last year I've made a decision that it's probably not the best place for
Joanne Lockwood: me to come because is it that bad? You know, it's the tsa. Is the
Joanne Lockwood: immigration. Are they going to look at me and go, I don't need passport? You
Joanne Lockwood: know, they're going to cheque my social media out in advance and go, you're not
Joanne Lockwood: the kind of person we want in this country. There's a hell of a lot
Joanne Lockwood: more risk now than ever used to be.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. I have not changed my
Dr. Gwen Petrone: driver's licence and my passport yet. When I go through customs, they're like, looking.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: They're like. And then they kill somebody over. And they go, is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: this really the same person? Because I look really different. Is that really the same
Dr. Gwen Petrone: person? I'm like, yes. I'm like, not today. So. And I joke and laugh and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they're like, okay, you can go through. Finally, before I went on the cruise, I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: actually went to change my name and everything. So I'm waiting on court dates and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: all sorts of stuff. I think that'll help bring
Dr. Gwen Petrone: everything more into focus. I get a kick out
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of it. It showed my licence and my passport and they're looking at me like
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I go into vote or something. And I'm like. They're like, yeah, I've been lazy.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I haven't gotten to it yet. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: is that still possible? I mean, I was under the impression of. And that Florida
Joanne Lockwood: was one of the places where they were revoking driving licences, where
Joanne Lockwood: you changed your name or it didn't align with your. Your birth
Dr. Gwen Petrone: is the. The male and female part. It's supposed to be assigned at birth.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So if you're a male at birth, you can't be female. But you can change
Dr. Gwen Petrone: everything else. You just can't change the male or female part. When I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: went to Fort Lauderdale, which is below where I live in Naples, I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: went to get breast augmentation. And Dr.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: He's freaking unbelievable. He's great. And I went for a second procedure because I wanted
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to get bigger. And I just snuck in and I was referring people because
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the guy's so good. He's like one of the world's best, best doctors in that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: area. And he said, we can't do trans anymore. And he's not because we
Dr. Gwen Petrone: don't want to. It's because the hospital won't take your ID if it says mail
Dr. Gwen Petrone: on it, do that. Do that specific operation. He said, we
Dr. Gwen Petrone: love. We love you guys and our staff and everybody loves it. And I do
Dr. Gwen Petrone: them all. I've been doing that for 20 years. I just can't do it anymore
Dr. Gwen Petrone: because of the recent law changes. So I snuck in at the last minute and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: then the law changed. Wow. So, yeah, if I went in now
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and my licence said M instead of F, they wouldn't be able to do it.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a real impact, isn't it? I mean, it's not just about being
Joanne Lockwood: blocked from a toilet. This is now denying you a
Joanne Lockwood: consensual operation. But that's standard insurance for me. It's like if
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it says M, it says F. I know internally who I am and it doesn't,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's not a big deal. But for something like that, it's a big deal. Right.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And so if I wanted to now, if I wanted to go do it, I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: couldn't do it in Florida. I have to go somewhere else or I'll take a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: medical vacation and go to Thailand or Turkey or someplace, you know, and,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and have it over there. But yeah, that's. So that's when it gets more much.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'll say a challenge to do that. I mean, all my ID
Joanne Lockwood: is, is F, top to bottom. I. I couldn't. I can't. I can no longer
Joanne Lockwood: prove who I used to be in any shape or form. I've got birth certificate,
Joanne Lockwood: passport, driving licence, everything about it. I want to tell you I was born in
Dr. Gwen Petrone: New York, just outside New York City, and I looked up on one of the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: AI bots about changing birth certificates and everything, and they're like
Dr. Gwen Petrone: very much more progressive over there, so they don't really have a big deal
Dr. Gwen Petrone: about it. So I'm going to see if I can change it over there and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: then bring it to Florida and then show it on my birth certificate and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: then change my licence and, you know, my passport and see what happens. I'm still
Dr. Gwen Petrone: not. They probably not do it because it's. It's not what your birth certificate says.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's assigned at birth, which is two different things. Yeah, right. So
Joanne Lockwood: they've now clarified that that mark is assigned at birth, not assigned at birth.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. Who you are today. Right? Yeah. And,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: yeah, I'll try. I'll see what I can do. And, you know. Yeah, but if
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it says, you know, I know who I am and I'm not going to worry
Dr. Gwen Petrone: about it, you know, so I'll. I'll. I'll go like this. I'll be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: okay. It's nice to have a. But I think, I think it's what you're saying
Joanne Lockwood: just now about it's not a flag, it's not a hill you want to plant
Joanne Lockwood: your flag on. It's not a hill you want to Die on, is it? Yeah.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's not something to plant my flag on. Yeah. It's. You're not getting
Joanne Lockwood: your driving licence or your passport every five seconds and seeing that and
Joanne Lockwood: getting a problem with it. I mean. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: affect me day to day. Just as you say, if you're going through immigration,
Joanne Lockwood: it has the wrong gender marker on it. It's. It's dysphoric, it
Joanne Lockwood: causes dysphoria and it would to me, but
Joanne Lockwood: the times I show it, it matters not. And it's only if you're being
Joanne Lockwood: denied something, as you said. I think the impact is being denied
Joanne Lockwood: surgery or other situations where that letter is
Joanne Lockwood: preventing you accessing something that's necessary. Yeah. That's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: where it becomes a much bigger factor. Like, I go to some
Dr. Gwen Petrone: pride centres on occasion on certain nights of the. Of the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: month, and they have younger people,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'd say 15 to 25 there, and they're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: going. Thinking about or going through transition or whatever. The. Just the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: common thread that I see with all of them is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: some. Like when I was in the Marines, I call it, I developed a spine.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Like, I got tough, right? And just things just bounce off me and they don't.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Don't. They don't affect me that much. But when they would speak about
Dr. Gwen Petrone: their life or what's happening to them, they're all on medication,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they all have some kind of a mental issue or they perceive they have a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: mental issue or they have Tourette's or they have something
Dr. Gwen Petrone: underlying and everything devastates them. So even if they're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: misgendered, it's like crushing, because they don't have. I call it a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: spine, right? And you have to get. Eventually you have to go in where the.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Where the broken glass is to develop toughness, so you can deal with the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: broken glass later on. And if you avoid and you try to go in safe
Dr. Gwen Petrone: spaces all the time, you don't get that toughness to deal with life, you gotta
Dr. Gwen Petrone: deal with life. And they're young and they've been avoiding all this
Dr. Gwen Petrone: stuff throughout their young life. And so now everything crushes them.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So I do thank being in the service that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: provided that to me, to be able to be in that era tough like that.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And so with the stuff that I come out with now, I try to help
Dr. Gwen Petrone: them to develop that toughness again, to decide where you're going to plant your
Dr. Gwen Petrone: flag and what's going to affect you, what to let go and what to. What
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to keep and have. Have more of a rational decision about it so this way
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you can let it go if it's not there and not hold onto it and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: be like this. And we also live in a noisier world, don't we?
Joanne Lockwood: With social media, we're judged online keyword warriors.
Joanne Lockwood: The news, the polarisation, the polemic debates that are around all the time.
Joanne Lockwood: It's hard, it must be hard for a young person to develop that, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, that stoicism, that resilience, that bounce back ability.
Joanne Lockwood: Because resilience you have, as you say, you have to
Joanne Lockwood: push to understand that it doesn't matter. The
Joanne Lockwood: next time you push, it's not so bad. You can expand, expand, expand. But if
Joanne Lockwood: you're constantly in a bubble where people go there, there, don't worry, we'll talk
Joanne Lockwood: about it together, we'll support each other. But you're never really testing those barriers.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: You can see a little bit of the other people's life
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and at that age social acceptance is like oxygen for them.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's like oxygen and it means so much to them and there's very, and their
Dr. Gwen Petrone: brain is still forming and so on and they're, they're easily influenced and that's why
Dr. Gwen Petrone: many countries, I think Australia and I think France just did this where
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they, they just say young people from a certain age below, they don't even get,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: they won't get let them on social media. Yeah, Australia just passed
Joanne Lockwood: 16 and we talk about in the UK as well too. Yeah, it influences their
Dr. Gwen Petrone: mind so much that they won't even let them on.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And it's become a big problem with learning in school because even with learning
Dr. Gwen Petrone: in the United States they're like, oh, every, every kid gets a laptop and they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: thought that was helping people, but it's really. People are getting more
Dr. Gwen Petrone: stupid because they're letting machinery do the work and they're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: not doing critical thinking in their brain to solve problems themselves.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Everything is going through the machine and it's not going through you. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so you're, you're increasing on one side, but you're decreasing the human
Dr. Gwen Petrone: element of, of critical thinking and actually using your green matter,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: your grey matter up here, you know, that's starting to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: be a big problem that the one, one thing that though is helping is really
Dr. Gwen Petrone: hindering. Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah. The power of
Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric, the power of debate, the power of considering other people's perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: and opinions. So busy polar opposites.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's really hard to be in the middle, isn't it, and see both perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: and be equanimity, equanimity it's part of the matrix.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's what the algorithm does. It makes everybody polariz. There's a show, if you have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Netflix, called the God. I can't remember what it is now. It'll come to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: me. But it goes into that problem with the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: algorithm and how it. It polarises society because it gives you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: more of what you want and not the other stuff. So you don't get a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: chance to see both. You see one and the other one sees one and they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go like this. And so you, like you said, you don't able to have debate
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and just compromise and everything. And still they just go like this. And that's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: what's happening in society quite a bit now. Now. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's not just a bit of that. It's actually that those
Joanne Lockwood: magnetic poles repelling each other. It's getting worse and worse and worse
Joanne Lockwood: over time. Those opinions are drifting further and further apart
Joanne Lockwood: and you become entrenched, you become wedded because your
Joanne Lockwood: whole community, the people you hang out with, everybody you talk to believes the same
Joanne Lockwood: thing as you do. And it's pushing everyone apart and. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: exactly. Even the centre ground to people who
Joanne Lockwood: are on the extremes looks extreme from that perspective,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, because I could be in the middle of those views and I look
Joanne Lockwood: polar opposite. It's crazy. We can't even meet in the middle anymore. There's no middle.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. Everybody has to be right. There's no compromise. It's like I have to be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: right at all costs and I'll defend myself to the death just to be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: right. And there's, you know, no possibility I could be
Dr. Gwen Petrone: even a little wrong. No, compromise isn't a thing anymore.
Joanne Lockwood: But that's the framing, isn't it? It's about being right or wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: We've lost the ability to see that. Well, actually, it's just my perspective, it's my
Joanne Lockwood: view, it's my belief, and I have a right to be right.
Joanne Lockwood: It's like, hang on a minute, that's free speech, isn't it? Being right.
Joanne Lockwood: It's trying to teach people how to be accountable for those views as well.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. One of the things that I learned over years of leadership and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: perspective, and I used to speak about leadership quite a bit when I did on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: stage, is in order to, as people and human beings,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the purpose is to grow. We want to grow and get better. We just don't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: graduate from school, spike the football or hit the soccer ball and you're done.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Right. And you don't grow anymore. The whole purpose is to grow, to get better,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to get better, to get better. But if you're full of whatever you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: think is right, there's no room for anything else. So you have to have the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: knowledge and the willingness to get rid of old things
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and old thoughts and beliefs that maybe don't service you anymore. So you make room
Dr. Gwen Petrone: for the new stuff to come in that have maybe been updated, that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you're like, oh, I never thought of it that way. But now there's no room
Dr. Gwen Petrone: for that, right? Because you just overflow and you're pissed off
Dr. Gwen Petrone: on everything because you have no room for any kind of concept anymore,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: maybe even old things that you. Old beliefs that you've cherished
Dr. Gwen Petrone: so long and maybe don't service you anymore. And you just have to be able
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to let them go because they don't service you anymore. So you have room for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: new concepts, new ideas to grow as a person. And there's a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: book was written in the early 90s by Wallace Wattles
Dr. Gwen Petrone: called the Science of Getting Rich. It's much more than just the title,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: but he says we all deserve to be rich. And he's not
Dr. Gwen Petrone: necessarily talking about rich in money terms, but he does talk about that. But
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it serves its purpose so that this way it allows you to access
Dr. Gwen Petrone: life experiences that you would never be able to access if you didn't have money.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: So you can become a better person, experience, travel the world and see new
Dr. Gwen Petrone: cultures, new ideas and become diverse and be able to see,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: wow, there's more beyond the pond, there's more beyond America. And the world is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: such a big place. And I can go to India and Thailand and see, oh,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: my God, the cultures are crazy good, they're so cool. But you would never know.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And you couldn't access that if you didn't have the money to do that. So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the purpose of the book, I call it literary artwork. It's a beautifully written book.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's short, really small, but. But to allow your. The point is to really.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Life's purpose is to grow and to be able to gain more knowledge and new
Dr. Gwen Petrone: information and more experiences to become better as you grow and not just spike the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: ball. Fabulous. Okay, I'm guessing we're going to have. I'm going
Joanne Lockwood: to be really stereotypical here. Two types of listeners listening to us in this conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: We're going to have people who are maybe questioning their gender,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe they've or have questioned their gender, and people who haven't.
Joanne Lockwood: So let's just think about the people who are questioning their gender. They may be
Joanne Lockwood: living in a state of flux Maybe they're not sure about themselves or maybe they've
Joanne Lockwood: got their shit together and they've sorted it. So what advice would you give people
Joanne Lockwood: that you're coaching and mentoring when they're in that
Joanne Lockwood: vortex of confusion and uncertainty and not knowing how to go forward?
Joanne Lockwood: Where would you encourage them to go? If their
Dr. Gwen Petrone: questioning is to not is to. Don't deny it.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: But I described the female side of me, inside of
Dr. Gwen Petrone: me as a seed. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: there's what I call the laws of the universe, gravity and different things. There's one
Dr. Gwen Petrone: called law of gestation. And that's everything gives birth in its own
Dr. Gwen Petrone: time. And so you have, if you plant corn, you know, in a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: certain amount of days it's going to germinate. You just don't dig it up after
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a week and say, well, we don't have corn. I'm going to plant cucumbers. You
Dr. Gwen Petrone: know, it's going to take a while to germinate. So gwen took, took 60 years
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to germinate inside of me and bloomed at a certain point.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: And if you're questioning your gender, you, you, you have these
Dr. Gwen Petrone: two parts inside of you, this yin and yang that you're playing with. And
Dr. Gwen Petrone: whichever one you feed more is the one that's going to dominate. And it's
Dr. Gwen Petrone: okay that if you have male on one side, female on the other side, and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you're in the middle, it's okay to be in the middle, right? It's okay to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: be, hey, I want to be male this day or this week. If you know
Dr. Gwen Petrone: perfectly fine. Other people are more polarised and they want to, they want to gravity
Dr. Gwen Petrone: more or the other side. There's so many of the spectrum, as they call it,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: is. I would say embrace it, but think about also you have to think about
Dr. Gwen Petrone: your life, your finances, your relationships and the collateral
Dr. Gwen Petrone: damage. Nobody wants to think about that. Friendships, love,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: lives, all this type of thing that you have to think about as well too.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: If I do this, what is, is what may happen and anticipate.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: But to. If you're, if you want to explore more female or more
Dr. Gwen Petrone: male, then find meetup groups and other groups around you that you can
Dr. Gwen Petrone: talk to. That was one of the things that, that helped me when I first
Dr. Gwen Petrone: started coming out and dressing was just around Covid time. Just before that,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I found a meetup group in New York and they would get together once a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: week and we would talk and they would answer questions for me that I never
Dr. Gwen Petrone: had 50 years ago, 40 years ago. And we'd have, they'd
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have A kitchen and food and cook. And I was able to meet my people,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: right? And they were able to help me to explore this. And if I didn't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have that, I don't even know if Gwen will be here today because I would
Dr. Gwen Petrone: just be alone. I don't know. Or maybe she would have bloomed another five
Dr. Gwen Petrone: years from now. So I guess it's a long winded answer to your question. Hopefully
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I answer that. No, it's a good answer. And finally then,
Joanne Lockwood: would you. What would you offer to people who
Joanne Lockwood: are trying to support people who are
Joanne Lockwood: exploring their gender feeling dysphoria either as a loved one, a friend,
Joanne Lockwood: a colleague, even a stranger in a bar?
Joanne Lockwood: What would you offer them as some guidance for
Joanne Lockwood: them? Tolerance is much more than tolerating
Dr. Gwen Petrone: people. As long as they agree with you. So many times people, oh, I'm so
Dr. Gwen Petrone: tolerant, but if you don't agree with me, you're dirt to me. That's not tolerance.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Tolerance is being able to accept people as they are and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to be able to see them for the essence of the person that they really
Dr. Gwen Petrone: are and how they're presenting. And like I said, I judge people by
Dr. Gwen Petrone: energy, not so much the initial perception. And to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: go a little bit deeper with the people. So this way you can. Everybody needs
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to be cut a break once in a while. And if they're
Dr. Gwen Petrone: angry or something, or you're kind of rubbing like this with them, hey, did they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: have a bad day today or something? You don't know the backstory as well. So
Dr. Gwen Petrone: cut them a break, deal with that and be able to treat them as they
Dr. Gwen Petrone: are. Even compliment, compliment, you look great today,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: or I love your hair today, or I love your clothes today. Even something like
Dr. Gwen Petrone: that, you never know. Even something little like that because you
Dr. Gwen Petrone: don't know their backstory can change a person's life. There's a storey
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of this world renowned speaker called Nick Wojciech. He has no arms and no legs,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: right? And he would go to school and he would get ragged on, ragged on,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: ragged on. And he. And, and he said to himself, listen, if another person comes
Dr. Gwen Petrone: up to me and just insults me and stuff like that, I'm just gonna kill
Dr. Gwen Petrone: myself. I just can't deal with it anymore. And then this girl came up to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: him and she goes, here he goes, here comes. And she goes, nick, you're looking
Dr. Gwen Petrone: great today. And that just really. And that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: made him feel so much better. Even one compliment. Cause you don't know the backstory
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of someone's life. Give them a compliment, smile to them Give them something good,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: even pay it forward. I'm on a line paying for food. I'll pay for their
Dr. Gwen Petrone: food or something. Just pay it forward. You know, what's a few dollars? You know,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it's not gonna mean anything to me, but it might be something great to a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: senior or to somebody else that you do that for. Be kind to people and
Dr. Gwen Petrone: people appreciate it. Yeah, I often describe that as
Joanne Lockwood: micro validations. Just those little touches, that little.
Joanne Lockwood: I see you, I'm smiling at you, and this is going to make you
Joanne Lockwood: smile back. Just those little things. Exactly, exactly. That's a short way to put
Dr. Gwen Petrone: it, but you did great. Yeah, I love it. I love your nails. Or.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow, you look great today. Oh, that's a lovely dress. Just something or just
Joanne Lockwood: smile at someone. Hi, honey. How are you doing?
Joanne Lockwood: Anything that is. You don't have to draw attention to
Joanne Lockwood: someone's difference or something. You just want to go,
Joanne Lockwood: you look great. Nice one. Yeah. That's all you want.
Joanne Lockwood: And if it's a trans man, you can say, wow, man, you're looking buff today.
Joanne Lockwood: Love you. Love it. Love your guns, whatever it may be. Love the cannons.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, no, it's. That's a
Joanne Lockwood: beautiful way of putting it. Thank you. So, Gwen, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to
Joanne Lockwood: you for the last hour and a bit, actually, we've been yakking away, how can
Joanne Lockwood: people get hold of you? What's the best way? Have you got a book? And
Joanne Lockwood: what do you want people to do? Yeah, well, I kind of hinted. I don't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: know if you could see, it's a little bit backwards. Dysphoria hacks.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah, but it's Dysphoria hacks. If you go to dysphoriahacks.com, you'll
Dr. Gwen Petrone: see the book there. There's also a companion book. So Dysphoria Hacks is
Dr. Gwen Petrone: the philosophy that I talked about, about diffusing anger, fear,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and you don't have to have just a storey. It could be that you're afraid
Dr. Gwen Petrone: of. It's going to help you combat that and know what it is and how
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to work with it. And then there's a workbook in it. I call it. Well,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: in the Marine, we have a saying. It says Semper Fi. We say semper fi
Dr. Gwen Petrone: all the time, so it's called Semper Fi to Semper Femme. And it's the
Dr. Gwen Petrone: workbook that goes with that. And you have an option of getting that as well,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: too, if you want to. And that goes a Lot deeper into different things for
Dr. Gwen Petrone: people. Very affordable. It's all digital. They can go get it there eventually be on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Amazon, but not yet. And if they want to. Want to contact me,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'm on Facebook all the time. I write a lot on Facebook. Really
Dr. Gwen Petrone: deep, long stuff. It's just Gwen Patron. It's like the tequila
Dr. Gwen Petrone: patron, but you have to add an E at the end because I'm a little
Dr. Gwen Petrone: spicy. I'm a little spicy. And. And you can, you know, contact me
Dr. Gwen Petrone: on those. Instagram, Facebook. And I'm also. I also love
Dr. Gwen Petrone: food. So I'm a foodie and I'm starting a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: cooking channel. Cause I used to be in the restaurant business and I love to
Dr. Gwen Petrone: cook and culinary and. But it's how to. How. How.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Using food as energy, but romance. A little bit flirty, a
Dr. Gwen Petrone: little bit sexual. And the channel is called Culinary and Cleavage.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Culinary and Cleavage. So I have a lot of fun with it. So I have
Dr. Gwen Petrone: a lot of liberty with. With it. My recipes aren't just recipes,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: but it's. It's like. Well, you'll see it. You'll see the recipe. When I get
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to. They're. They're there. But I'm gonna start doing the recipes in the next week
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and you'll see that. And I'll dress like very suggestively and all different things.
Dr. Gwen Petrone: Just. I want to make cooking fun. Not too serious, very
Dr. Gwen Petrone: flirty, very suggestive. But to bring couples together,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: to enjoy the process of cooking together and. And bring couples together
Dr. Gwen Petrone: there or to go enjoy the process of cooking. So I'll go and I'll go
Dr. Gwen Petrone: shopping for food, look at different things and I'll be describing. And I'll video that
Dr. Gwen Petrone: and I'll have bloopers on there and all sorts of stuff. So. Because that's my
Dr. Gwen Petrone: personality. Just I love to be goofy and. And. But yeah, Instagram,
Dr. Gwen Petrone: TikTok, YouTube, culinary and cleavage. I think you'll enjoy it. It'll be fun. Fun. Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: I. I've just checked you out on Facebook. I just found your Facebook page. And
Joanne Lockwood: I'll put all the details in the notes. Okay. Are you. Are you on LinkedIn
Joanne Lockwood: at all? Or is it mainly Facebook, Instagram? I'm not on LinkedIn. I
Dr. Gwen Petrone: never went on LinkedIn because I will be on there soon. But I never went
Dr. Gwen Petrone: on there because I never legally changed my name. So I didn't. I just didn't
Dr. Gwen Petrone: feel comfortable doing that yet. But I've all the paperwork submitted waiting on my court
Dr. Gwen Petrone: date, and once that happens, I'll be on LinkedIn as Gwen Petrone. Fabulous,
Joanne Lockwood: fabulous, fabulous. Well, well, I do encourage you to, if you're
Joanne Lockwood: listening to this, to cheque out Gwen's websites and the book
Joanne Lockwood: digital offering, drop in on Facebook. I noticed we've got 10
Joanne Lockwood: mutual friends on Facebook, so I have a ping you a friend's request and maybe
Joanne Lockwood: we can keep in touch. Yeah, I already posted this morning. I said
Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'm on doing a podcast right now and I put your name tagged you on
Dr. Gwen Petrone: there as well too. And so once this airs, I'll post it again. So
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fantastic. So, Gwen, thank you so much. Thank you, Jo, thank
Dr. Gwen Petrone: you so much. Thanks, everybody. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear
Joanne Lockwood: and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
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Joanne Lockwood: driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and
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Joanne Lockwood: Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all
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Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.