Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold
Joanne Lockwood: conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration
Joanne Lockwood: into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal
Joanne Lockwood: transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to
Joanne Lockwood: create a world without? Remember, everyone not only
Joanne Lockwood: belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we
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Joanne Lockwood: insights or to join me on the show. So
Joanne Lockwood: adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 211 with the title Belonging as
Joanne Lockwood: Infrastructure. And I have the absolute honour and
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to welcome Andrea D. Carter. Andrea is a
Joanne Lockwood: neuroscience based workplace belonging expert, an
Joanne Lockwood: organisational scientist and founder of the
Joanne Lockwood: Belonging first methodology, helping leaders turn
Joanne Lockwood: belonging into a measurable, practical culture
Joanne Lockwood: strategy. When I asked Andrea to describe her
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, she said that it is her ability to turn
Joanne Lockwood: complex data into science and stories that people
Joanne Lockwood: can feel, translating into lived experience behind
Joanne Lockwood: the numbers into insights that leaders can actually
Joanne Lockwood: act on. Hello, Andrea, welcome to the show. Hello,
Andrea D. Carter: Joanne. So nice to be here today. Thanks for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Whereabouts in the world are you? So just in Toronto, Ontario,
Andrea D. Carter: Canada, and it's freezing here. Freezing. So that's quite.
Joanne Lockwood: Up north, as I would say in the uk is quite. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: northern part of Canada, is it? Or the whole of Canada's freezing at this time
Joanne Lockwood: of year? Well, it's the wintertime here and so
Andrea D. Carter: for those of us who ski, we love it. Although Ontario skiing
Andrea D. Carter: is like skiing on ice and out west it's skiing in the mountains.
Andrea D. Carter: Like, you know what you ski, you. Need the powder,
Joanne Lockwood: don't you? You don't want it to freeze too much. Well, skiing on ice
Andrea D. Carter: is, you know, you're working really hard, I'll say that. Yeah, that's
Andrea D. Carter: true. Hard to walk around as well. You need to be able to crunch into
Joanne Lockwood: as well, I guess. Yes, well, and it's, you know, even just going outside,
Andrea D. Carter: right. Like if you're walking your dog or something like that, you're, you're certainly
Andrea D. Carter: putting on all of the clothes and you're just, you know, your eyes
Andrea D. Carter: are peeking out from behind all of your winter gear. I've
Joanne Lockwood: got a Puppy and I took her out for a walk this morning and often
Joanne Lockwood: when I take her out she's six months old and she's a cavapoo so she's
Joanne Lockwood: never going to be a massive dog. So she's kind of small, medium at the
Joanne Lockwood: moment. And I bring her back and she's got this like dirt line across
Joanne Lockwood: her body where it's gone up up to her shoulders and it's like brown
Joanne Lockwood: stain across her body. The bottom of her ears are also dirty so you can
Joanne Lockwood: see exactly the dirt line where she's gone through puddles, gone
Joanne Lockwood: through mud and stuff. So she's a curious being in the snow.
Andrea D. Carter: She'd love it. Probably snow angels. That's cute. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Instead of snow angels where she lies on the back in the snow, she lies
Joanne Lockwood: in the mud and does it. It's got her back. It's like just like the
Andrea D. Carter: horses. Yeah, they do that too. Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwood: what sort of dog have you got or dogs? I have one dog, he's a
Andrea D. Carter: rescue and we rescued him about seven years ago and
Andrea D. Carter: he's a cross we think between a pharaoh hound and a
Andrea D. Carter: basenji. And so he's a very interesting dog because he
Andrea D. Carter: is more like a cat than a dog. We've always had very
Andrea D. Carter: rambunctious dogs and so, you know, typically border
Andrea D. Carter: collies and Australian shepherds. And so this dog is a
Andrea D. Carter: little bit of a, a different personality than what
Andrea D. Carter: we're used to. And yet he's so sweet. And he doesn't
Andrea D. Carter: bark if he wants something. He communicates through
Andrea D. Carter: his eyes. So you have to really pay attention to what
Andrea D. Carter: he's asking you for. And he's just such a sweet boy. He
Andrea D. Carter: will lay in any sort of sunshine that is coming in through the
Andrea D. Carter: house and that is his most favourite thing. He won't swim, he
Andrea D. Carter: won't go in puddles. But he loves to hop through the snow
Andrea D. Carter: and he certainly loves to be outside. That's beautiful. Sounds
Joanne Lockwood: fantastic. Nothing better than a dog that looks communicates through
Joanne Lockwood: the eyes. I've learned about puppy dog eyes firsthand and they're. There's something else,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't they the eyes? They really are. And even you know, if he's hungry
Andrea D. Carter: or something like that, like he has this specific look of okay, I'm
Andrea D. Carter: hungry, I'd like to eat now. He's fascinating. He's taught me a lot about
Andrea D. Carter: non communicative behaviour for sure. And so lovely
Andrea D. Carter: that we have him. He's a real treat in our family.
Joanne Lockwood: That's, it's interesting you say that about non communicative behaviour. I thought I'd
Joanne Lockwood: learned some really good lessons. My wife and I are raising two children, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, because children teach you a lot about leadership and your
Joanne Lockwood: own leadership style and how to influence and not tell
Joanne Lockwood: and you're managing human beings a different way of communicating. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So our puppy has taught us a whole new set of lessons around
Joanne Lockwood: patience, accountability, responsibility and
Joanne Lockwood: cause. I remember just before we got her, I read, read the book or some
Joanne Lockwood: YouTubes and the golden rule is it's never the puppy's fault.
Joanne Lockwood: They don't set out to be mean, vindictive, annoy you
Joanne Lockwood: or anything like this. They just, they just do puppy stuff. So if, if
Joanne Lockwood: they're not doing the right puppy stuff, it's down to you to create the environment
Joanne Lockwood: and to create the lessons. It's really
Joanne Lockwood: like Leadership Development 101. This is now
Joanne Lockwood: 3014. I feel like I've graduated as a
Joanne Lockwood: master's in patience and accountability. So
Andrea D. Carter: true, so true. And it is one of those things where,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, when you look at going first, I always talk about
Andrea D. Carter: belonging through that lens of going first. You know, we have to set the
Andrea D. Carter: conditions and we have to have language and we have to have infrastructure in order
Andrea D. Carter: for people to, to really thrive and succeed. And it's the same for
Andrea D. Carter: animals, right, when there's predictability and clarity and there's
Andrea D. Carter: structure and it actually allows the human brain and also the
Andrea D. Carter: puppy brain to, to succeed and to do the things
Andrea D. Carter: that, that we're actually wanting from them. So children,
Andrea D. Carter: puppies, workplaces, they're all learning grounds for
Andrea D. Carter: sure. So we start in the, in the intro that I read out and,
Joanne Lockwood: and, and spoke to about this belonging first methodology.
Joanne Lockwood: What is belonging? How would you describe that in the workplace
Joanne Lockwood: or even in society? Yeah, so it's interesting
Andrea D. Carter: because I think what often
Andrea D. Carter: happens is that, and especially right now. So
Andrea D. Carter: let's address the elephant in the room, if you will. You know,
Andrea D. Carter: there's so much media right now that DEI is dead. In Canada
Andrea D. Carter: we call it idea. So in the acronym we include
Andrea D. Carter: accessibility. So Inclusion, Diversity, equity, accessibility. And
Andrea D. Carter: what we're seeing in Canada, I mean, I work across the globe,
Andrea D. Carter: so I, I work with a lot of global organisations and
Andrea D. Carter: so you're hearing a lot of different kind of elements from different places
Andrea D. Carter: in the world. And if you look at localization and you look at
Andrea D. Carter: all of the things that each country is bringing right now and
Andrea D. Carter: the volatility that we're under right now, you know, I think it's actually a
Andrea D. Carter: dangerous belief to Say that DEI is dying or even
Andrea D. Carter: misplacing that DEI is the same thing as belonging to.
Andrea D. Carter: Because they're not. And I think treating it as true
Andrea D. Carter: is actually causing some real harm. And here's
Andrea D. Carter: what's actually happening. You know, we're seeing
Andrea D. Carter: organisations roll DEI language into culture and
Andrea D. Carter: belonging initiatives, but they're conflating
Andrea D. Carter: two fundamentally different things. So DEI is
Andrea D. Carter: structural accountability frameworks, right?
Andrea D. Carter: They're allowing organisations to not only
Andrea D. Carter: measure representation, but track pay equity
Andrea D. Carter: audit hiring processes, evaluate promotion
Andrea D. Carter: velocity across demographics and hold
Andrea D. Carter: organisations accountable for some of the
Andrea D. Carter: systemic gaps that we're seeing. DEI and idea
Andrea D. Carter: really is a question of asking, you know, are our
Andrea D. Carter: structures equitable? Whereas belonging is
Andrea D. Carter: actually an experiential infrastructure. It's
Andrea D. Carter: going to measure five specific indicators that we
Andrea D. Carter: validated back in 2022, actually in the mining
Andrea D. Carter: industry. We had 3,500 participants. It was the largest
Andrea D. Carter: mining study that had ever been done and
Andrea D. Carter: it was across 11 Toronto Stock Exchange listed
Andrea D. Carter: organisations. And so we validated, we started there, we
Andrea D. Carter: started with what is belonging and what do people have to experience
Andrea D. Carter: in order for them to experience belonging from a. From a
Andrea D. Carter: neuroscience perspective? And then can they be measured? And so the
Andrea D. Carter: five indicators are actually comfortable connection,
Andrea D. Carter: contribution, psychological safety and wellbeing. And
Andrea D. Carter: what they do is those five indicators actually enable people to perform
Andrea D. Carter: at their best. And so we're not just checking to see if
Andrea D. Carter: you're invited into the organisation or into
Andrea D. Carter: the meeting, we're checking to see whether or not can you actually perform
Andrea D. Carter: at your best in this environment. Belonging actually asks the
Andrea D. Carter: question, can people succeed in the systems we've built?
Andrea D. Carter: And so those things are very different, you need both,
Andrea D. Carter: but they're not interchangeable. And I think when organisations
Andrea D. Carter: abandon DEI accountability in favour of
Andrea D. Carter: belonging focused culture, they're making a critical error.
Andrea D. Carter: And you can't create belonging without addressing the structural barriers
Andrea D. Carter: of DEI frameworks. And you can't achieve DEI outcomes without
Andrea D. Carter: belonging. Infrastructure and those two elements together
Andrea D. Carter: are what allow us to look at creating organisations
Andrea D. Carter: that are not only diverse but actually succeed together. That's where
Andrea D. Carter: your quality, your speed, your engagement, your innovation comes
Andrea D. Carter: from. See, I've always said you can be included but not feel
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. Absolutely. What you've just said there,
Andrea D. Carter: it's interesting because when we look at this, I like to think of
Andrea D. Carter: DEI as looking at information
Andrea D. Carter: that is input, belonging
Andrea D. Carter: is output. And so belonging is the
Andrea D. Carter: action of being able to actually show
Andrea D. Carter: up and create environments so that the
Andrea D. Carter: infrastructure works. And so if I might
Andrea D. Carter: go through the five indicators just a little bit here, if that would be
Andrea D. Carter: helpful. Yeah, please, please, I'd love to hear them. I think that that
Andrea D. Carter: kind of breaks things down a little bit and provides a little bit
Andrea D. Carter: more context to what I'm talking about. So comfort.
Andrea D. Carter: I always think it's so funny when I. When I say the word comfort, people
Andrea D. Carter: are like, oh, yeah, you know, we have to be comfortable in our space. And
Andrea D. Carter: I'm not talking about the fluffy stuff, right? I'm not talking about, you know, that
Andrea D. Carter: you're not gonna have friction or conflict. We actually need friction and
Andrea D. Carter: conflict. However, comfort is the first indicator, because
Andrea D. Carter: when you go into friction, when you go into conflict, if
Andrea D. Carter: you don't have some key elements that actually
Andrea D. Carter: set your brain up to regulate,
Andrea D. Carter: you are going to be in an environment where you are consistently
Andrea D. Carter: dysregulated. And leaders, when they walk in a room,
Andrea D. Carter: they either dysregulate their teams and their
Andrea D. Carter: organisation or they regulate the
Andrea D. Carter: organisation. And so one of the things that helps our brain do
Andrea D. Carter: that is actually having clarity and predictability. And so
Andrea D. Carter: that is part of the comfort indicator. So clarity, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: really, when you look at clarity, it can be things like being
Andrea D. Carter: able to walk into a room. And let me. Let me say it this way,
Andrea D. Carter: you've probably felt this where you've walked into a
Andrea D. Carter: meeting and you've had absolutely no idea why you're there,
Andrea D. Carter: what the decision is that you need to make, or whether you're
Andrea D. Carter: supposed to speak or supposed to stay quiet. And you almost
Andrea D. Carter: spend the entire time scanning the room, trying to read the
Andrea D. Carter: emotional temperature, figuring out what the unspoken
Andrea D. Carter: rules are. And by the time the meeting ends, you're
Andrea D. Carter: exhausted. But you're not exhausted from doing the work
Andrea D. Carter: yet. You haven't done the work. You're exhausted from the
Andrea D. Carter: cognitive load of uncertainty, of not knowing.
Andrea D. Carter: And that's your brain being in threat mode. And so when
Andrea D. Carter: you're in this mode, your cortisol levels are elevated, your nervous system is
Andrea D. Carter: working overtime and there's zero energy that's
Andrea D. Carter: actually going towards real
Andrea D. Carter: problem solving, innovation, working through
Andrea D. Carter: situations or conflicts, or, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, being able to generate new ideas. The flip side of that,
Andrea D. Carter: when, when comfort is present, you enter a meeting
Andrea D. Carter: and it starts with, here's why we're here,
Andrea D. Carter: here's what we need to decide, here's how your input
Andrea D. Carter: is going to shape this outcome, and here's who is
Andrea D. Carter: ultimately making the final decision. Clarity,
Andrea D. Carter: predictability. So immediately, you know, when you have those things,
Andrea D. Carter: shoulders drop, right? Your brain stops scanning and
Andrea D. Carter: worrying about, you know, what other people are doing. And you're actually,
Andrea D. Carter: by having those things, you're being told where you're
Andrea D. Carter: gonna focus your energy and where you're gonna focus your brain power. So
Andrea D. Carter: that problem actually gets your
Andrea D. Carter: attention rather than having to manage your own
Andrea D. Carter: anxiety. Yeah, that's the word that's gonna pick up anxiety. You're not sure
Joanne Lockwood: what's there. Your brain's rushing around upstairs going,
Joanne Lockwood: what am I doing? How do I succeed in this environment? You don't know, do
Joanne Lockwood: you? You don't know. And so if you think about
Andrea D. Carter: a lot of fitting in environments, so fitting in
Andrea D. Carter: is the opposite of belonging. Fitting in
Andrea D. Carter: is. It's 100% on me
Andrea D. Carter: to come into your environment, Jo, and
Andrea D. Carter: I have to adapt to you, I have
Andrea D. Carter: to read your signals, interpret what
Andrea D. Carter: you've said, read between the lines in how many
Andrea D. Carter: different ways, all of those things. And then, you know, I don't
Andrea D. Carter: even know. I, I might be right, I might be wrong.
Andrea D. Carter: And so what that does is that instead of you getting my best
Andrea D. Carter: self, you're getting my anxious or
Andrea D. Carter: confused or navigating trying to figure things out.
Andrea D. Carter: And that fitting in model is actually what's
Andrea D. Carter: costing organisations from being really successful.
Andrea D. Carter: You know, once you hire someone, when you onboard someone, you
Andrea D. Carter: obviously want them to succeed in your, in your environment,
Andrea D. Carter: it's too expensive to have to replace bad hires.
Andrea D. Carter: And a lot of times it's not a bad hire, it's that the organisation
Andrea D. Carter: hasn't created belonging. And belonging is, is 50, 50.
Andrea D. Carter: It means that it's 50% on me for me to create
Andrea D. Carter: belonging for you and 50% on you to create belonging for me. It means
Andrea D. Carter: we're showing up together to actually create that
Andrea D. Carter: comfort, get clear on what makes each other do well,
Andrea D. Carter: create success factors that we're working towards
Andrea D. Carter: and we understand and we know having an awareness of somebody
Andrea D. Carter: else's needs and what makes them do well, that's all part
Andrea D. Carter: of comfort. And so comfort isn't about
Andrea D. Carter: eliminating challenge or conflict or friction,
Andrea D. Carter: it's about creating clarity and predictability so that
Andrea D. Carter: people's nervous systems can actually use their energy
Andrea D. Carter: towards performance. What we need to be really, really mindful of
Joanne Lockwood: then is the people's comfort is different
Joanne Lockwood: to other people. Some of the anxiety that I may
Joanne Lockwood: feel in a certain situation may be magnified
Joanne Lockwood: or not there for others. You know, it depends on your own personality types, your
Joanne Lockwood: own knowledge, your own power in the dynamic, power
Joanne Lockwood: dynamic in the relationships. And your comfort level is going to have a different
Joanne Lockwood: temperature gauge, isn't it? Absolutely. And in a fitting in
Andrea D. Carter: culture, the comfort level is all about the person who has the most power.
Andrea D. Carter: And so in that fitting in culture, everything
Andrea D. Carter: is about one person rather than about the team or
Andrea D. Carter: the group, even the family. And so
Andrea D. Carter: in those situations, you know, some of the
Andrea D. Carter: skills and the behaviours, capabilities are
Andrea D. Carter: to look at how to create comfort for your
Andrea D. Carter: team so that they thrive. And it's interesting, I was listening to
Andrea D. Carter: a Bloomberg, a podcast the other day
Andrea D. Carter: and it was this incredibly successful
Andrea D. Carter: woman who had, you know, run. She was a
Andrea D. Carter: CEO, she was cfo, she had run all of these organisations.
Andrea D. Carter: And what she talked about was that, you know, they were talking about middle management
Andrea D. Carter: right now and how middle management is, is really being compressed. Well,
Andrea D. Carter: middle management has always been compressed because they're getting pressure from above
Andrea D. Carter: and from below. And so that, that's just the role. But the thing is, is
Andrea D. Carter: that those middle managers who actually created comfort
Andrea D. Carter: for their team actually saw the person
Andrea D. Carter: first. That actually led to, and this is the next
Andrea D. Carter: indicator, connection. And it leads to
Andrea D. Carter: building trust by getting to know someone,
Andrea D. Carter: by getting to understand someone, by building
Andrea D. Carter: a relationship that's built on trust rather than on transaction.
Andrea D. Carter: And when you create mutual accountability and when you create
Andrea D. Carter: mutual responsibility, connection allows you to trust somebody
Andrea D. Carter: when you're going through friction and
Andrea D. Carter: conflict. And so if you think of a lot of teams,
Andrea D. Carter: I'll give you another example for connection here, but most people have
Andrea D. Carter: probably felt this as well. You know, you're on this team, everyone's
Andrea D. Carter: polite, everyone does their job, but nobody
Andrea D. Carter: trusts each other, right? Everything is about transaction. Like, I'll give you this,
Andrea D. Carter: you give me that, you do this, I'll do that. And nobody's going to ask
Andrea D. Carter: for help because they don't want to look too weak. And
Andrea D. Carter: nobody is going to offer help because you're not sure if
Andrea D. Carter: it's welcome. And so meetings are all about
Andrea D. Carter: performances, right? And everyone's guarded. And, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, this is what happens when, when real connection is
Andrea D. Carter: missing. And so, you know, even on this, this other
Andrea D. Carter: podcast on Bloomberg, you know, the, the concept really
Andrea D. Carter: was that if middle managers don't know how to connect
Andrea D. Carter: with people, that they never create environments where
Andrea D. Carter: the employees are thriving and they can't succeed as
Andrea D. Carter: well. And so what we know is that when you start with
Andrea D. Carter: comfort and creating clarity and predictability and
Andrea D. Carter: then you move into connection, which is developing a
Andrea D. Carter: bond. You know, what you're doing there is you're
Andrea D. Carter: creating the structure so that one of your team can say,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, I'm stuck on this. Can you take a look? And three
Andrea D. Carter: people immediately jump onto it, right? Or In a meeting,
Andrea D. Carter: when someone names somebody else as being a big
Andrea D. Carter: contributor publicly, like, this moved forward
Andrea D. Carter: because of what Jo did. Right. Like, you feel
Andrea D. Carter: that you're in this together and that's oxytocin,
Andrea D. Carter: that's your brain going through a bonding process.
Andrea D. Carter: And when connection isn't just about being nice, I say that
Andrea D. Carter: with bunny ears, you know, it's about building trust through
Andrea D. Carter: reciprocity. So when friction and conflict
Andrea D. Carter: and we know that that's not going away, right? Volatility is just
Andrea D. Carter: getting more volatile. It means that we can also then navigate these things
Andrea D. Carter: together instead of retreating into isolation. You know that your
Joanne Lockwood: teammates have your back, you know that people are going to be there to support
Joanne Lockwood: you and you're not going to get thrown under a bus by
Joanne Lockwood: your manager, by your leader. You know when you can succeed. So you got that.
Joanne Lockwood: So the previous hit, you got the clarity and, you know, you got the support.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I get that. I get it completely. So the next
Andrea D. Carter: indicator is contribution. And you've likely felt this too,
Andrea D. Carter: at some point. You know, you've worked on a project or
Andrea D. Carter: you've been. You can even think of. Families are great with this
Andrea D. Carter: too. You know, there's. There's likely one person that is
Andrea D. Carter: dictating and only certain people are asked their opinion.
Andrea D. Carter: Or, you know, you've poured work into a project
Andrea D. Carter: and, you know, staying late, working weekends, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: delivering something that you're proud of and then nothing, no
Andrea D. Carter: acknowledgement, you know, no feedback. The work just kind of like disappears.
Joanne Lockwood: Worse, your effort gets dismissed. Oh, I haven't got time to
Joanne Lockwood: look at that, or I'm too busy, or I haven't looked at it yet. And
Joanne Lockwood: you think, well, why. Why did I bother? Yeah, that is such a great point
Andrea D. Carter: too. Thanks for adding that into the conversation. Because you're
Andrea D. Carter: absolutely right. And you know, that dismiss, man,
Andrea D. Carter: like, that's. That's really detrimental. And
Andrea D. Carter: so in the contribution indicator, what we're looking at here is
Andrea D. Carter: that contribution actually motivates and
Andrea D. Carter: mobilises us. And when we know that the work matters,
Andrea D. Carter: when we know that we matter, when we're valued
Andrea D. Carter: and the work that we do, or the. Even the perspective
Andrea D. Carter: that we provide, when that becomes influential,
Andrea D. Carter: and that can actually change decisions, that. That actually
Andrea D. Carter: allows your brain to release not only dopamine but also
Andrea D. Carter: serotonin. And so, you know, your
Andrea D. Carter: brain, when you're acknowledged,
Andrea D. Carter: releases dopamine. And it's essentially what says, hey,
Andrea D. Carter: you've. You've done something that people
Andrea D. Carter: are acknowledging and this is good. And then what
Andrea D. Carter: happens is that when Somebody acknowledges it. You have
Andrea D. Carter: serotonin that's released when somebody doesn't
Andrea D. Carter: acknowledge it. That actually takes the foot off the
Andrea D. Carter: dopamine and it drains your motivation really quickly
Andrea D. Carter: because when it's not acknowledged, the
Andrea D. Carter: serotonin can't kick in. And serotonin is the
Andrea D. Carter: hormone and neurotransmitter that actually allows you to
Andrea D. Carter: stay motivated and to keep going. And
Andrea D. Carter: so I always think it's so fascinating because people always think about
Andrea D. Carter: the high performer and the low performer and that this is like
Andrea D. Carter: universal. But the thing is, is that nobody operates in a
Andrea D. Carter: silo. Everyone, the frontline worker, the admin
Andrea D. Carter: assistant, the middle manager, the executive,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, they all need to know that their work
Andrea D. Carter: matters. And this isn't, you know, we're not talking about, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: constant praise, it's acknowledgement. It's,
Andrea D. Carter: it's, you know, you've done this work and there's an acknowledgement of
Andrea D. Carter: people. So the project succeeded because of what
Andrea D. Carter: you brought to it. Here's what you brought to it. Wrap ups at the
Andrea D. Carter: end of all projects should have the leader
Andrea D. Carter: actually acknowledging what each person brought to the project.
Andrea D. Carter: And that is a way that you can actually directly see
Andrea D. Carter: where your work, your direct influence,
Andrea D. Carter: helped move something forward. Whether that was a decision, whether that was solving
Andrea D. Carter: a problem, whether that was innovating. And with just
Andrea D. Carter: simple words, you then feel energised and you want to
Andrea D. Carter: contribute more. And that's actually the dopamine saying,
Andrea D. Carter: hey, you know, what I do here matters. It's not just
Andrea D. Carter: busy work, right? I'm creating value. And when the
Andrea D. Carter: manager says, you know, you really helped us make a really good call,
Andrea D. Carter: we couldn't have finished this without you. Those moments
Andrea D. Carter: tell your brain, I'm not invisible, I have impact,
Andrea D. Carter: I matter and I can keep going. And so then what happens
Andrea D. Carter: is that you stay in the
Andrea D. Carter: space knowing that you want to keep going and you want to keep
Andrea D. Carter: contributing. And so when we look at contribution,
Andrea D. Carter: that's really where we're looking at the engagement
Andrea D. Carter: and the staying in things. Even when times are hard. You're
Joanne Lockwood: speaking there and I'm nodding my head, I'm smiling. It's so
Joanne Lockwood: true. I mean, that phrase you use or paraphrase what you said,
Joanne Lockwood: you matter. Because if you don't matter, you're not acknowledged.
Joanne Lockwood: Why do I bother? Why am I here? What's in it for me? You know,
Joanne Lockwood: Cause we've always got the what's in it for me motivation thing
Joanne Lockwood: here. There's nothing in it for me. Why am I here? Why do I bother.
Joanne Lockwood: And if you're not acknowledging me as having contributed or delivered
Joanne Lockwood: something, then I'll go and do something better. I'll go and find somewhere else who
Joanne Lockwood: does appreciate me, the quiet quitting. Or we'll just vote with our
Joanne Lockwood: feet and say, yeah, completely, absolutely. And I
Joanne Lockwood: can think of instances of my own career where
Joanne Lockwood: I just thought completely less of the environment and the manager
Joanne Lockwood: or whoever I was talking to and thought, you know what, I could go
Joanne Lockwood: and be doing something more fun, more interesting and I wouldn't spend
Joanne Lockwood: all night doing it or worrying about it because you don't care. And it's like,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, that one comment or that one lack of
Joanne Lockwood: acknowledgement destroys motivation and belonging, doesn't it?
Andrea D. Carter: Absolutely. And you know, our data right now around the
Andrea D. Carter: globe is showing some, some really important
Andrea D. Carter: statistics. You know, there, there is not only quiet
Andrea D. Carter: quitting, but also, you know, a workforce that is, I'm calling
Andrea D. Carter: it the Great Detachment. And I've done a lot of writing about
Andrea D. Carter: this because what's happening is that for
Andrea D. Carter: years engagement surveys have been the
Andrea D. Carter: forefront of organisational infrastructure, of gathering
Andrea D. Carter: what apparently matters to employees or how they're doing.
Andrea D. Carter: And the reality is, is that engagement studies just show
Andrea D. Carter: you who's busy. They don't actually show you who's going
Andrea D. Carter: to stay or who actually wants to
Andrea D. Carter: keep going. And when employees get the
Andrea D. Carter: feedback, I don't matter like what we've been talking about,
Andrea D. Carter: they eventually go, okay, well right now the job market sucks.
Andrea D. Carter: So finding a new job may not be my best
Andrea D. Carter: move here, but I'm gonna spend half of my day looking
Andrea D. Carter: and half of my day working. And I'll do my bare
Andrea D. Carter: minimum because I'm not actually important anyways.
Andrea D. Carter: And so what that does
Andrea D. Carter: is the quality of the work that you're getting, the speed of
Andrea D. Carter: things getting done, your innovation rates, you know, people
Andrea D. Carter: have stopped speaking up. Some of your top performers at this
Andrea D. Carter: point in time have stopped speaking up. Our
Andrea D. Carter: workplace toxicity rose 14%
Andrea D. Carter: from 2024 to 2025. It went from
Andrea D. Carter: 66% to 80% at the end of
Andrea D. Carter: 2025. And if you think of workplace toxicity as
Andrea D. Carter: that high, it means that
Andrea D. Carter: we're not doing some of the skills and the behaviours and we're
Andrea D. Carter: not saying some of the things that are actually allowing people to
Andrea D. Carter: go, I actually matter here. And you know, if you look at
Andrea D. Carter: December 2025 alone, 91,000 women
Andrea D. Carter: left the workforce in North America. Women
Andrea D. Carter: with children under five participation dropped from
Andrea D. Carter: 69.7% to
Andrea D. Carter: 66.9%.
Andrea D. Carter: College educated women, participation fell
Andrea D. Carter: from 70 to 67%. So when we're looking at all these
Andrea D. Carter: things, you know, we know, and I'm using women's
Andrea D. Carter: stats only because I'm writing an article right
Andrea D. Carter: now about it and they're right in front of me, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, and, you know, when we look at, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: how many people are, are not being seen right
Andrea D. Carter: now, that's, that's huge. And some of that is
Andrea D. Carter: being impacted by the DEI rollback. You know, if
Andrea D. Carter: we look at the amount of black women who lost jobs
Andrea D. Carter: in February to April, you're looking at 304,000
Andrea D. Carter: black women and 300,000 black women who were
Andrea D. Carter: laid off. And so, you know, if you look at those
Andrea D. Carter: forced exit costs, just in the US alone, that's
Andrea D. Carter: 9.2 billion in GDP. You know, UK has, has
Andrea D. Carter: different stats, but they're all trending
Andrea D. Carter: downwards is my point. And so we don't just have
Andrea D. Carter: to look at the us, because the US is certainly
Andrea D. Carter: under a lot of volatility and a lot of change and a
Andrea D. Carter: lot of work that's been done is, is certainly
Andrea D. Carter: rolled back, but we're still seeing that
Andrea D. Carter: downward trend. And so when you look at
Andrea D. Carter: belonging and you look at how that's actually
Andrea D. Carter: impacting organisations and how
Andrea D. Carter: organisations are succeeding, what we're
Andrea D. Carter: going to see is that as the job market shifts and
Andrea D. Carter: changes, the moment that the market opens more,
Andrea D. Carter: you're going to see mass exodus from
Andrea D. Carter: organisations where people didn't belong and
Andrea D. Carter: that will become more and more of a trend. The fourth
Andrea D. Carter: indicator is psychological safety. And we know about psychological safety,
Andrea D. Carter: right? Psychological safety. There's been millions and millions of dollars spent on
Andrea D. Carter: psychological safety. And psychological safety is really what
Andrea D. Carter: protects you as you go through friction. And so it keeps people
Andrea D. Carter: willing to speak, to try to
Andrea D. Carter: admit, to challenge without that fear of
Andrea D. Carter: social punishment. You know, we've spent
Andrea D. Carter: millions of dollars on psychological safety training and yet it's
Andrea D. Carter: only one fifth of belonging. And so that
Andrea D. Carter: creates massive gaps. And we know about psychological safety, right? We
Andrea D. Carter: know that, you know, if you've been in a meeting where
Andrea D. Carter: you notice a flaw in something in a plan that could cause
Andrea D. Carter: real, you know, problems down the line, but you don't say something.
Andrea D. Carter: You know, we see, we've seen the impact of not having
Andrea D. Carter: psychological safety within an environment. And what happens
Andrea D. Carter: is that the last time somebody raised a concern, a leader got
Andrea D. Carter: defensive or a manager got defensive, or someone was labelled
Andrea D. Carter: not a team player, or somebody was berated, or
Andrea D. Carter: somebody was told their voice doesn't matter, that doesn't matter.
Andrea D. Carter: And so what it does is it Trains people to stay quiet, meetings end,
Andrea D. Carter: flawed plans move forward and you think, well, I guess I tried,
Andrea D. Carter: I tried before, that doesn't work. And so people
Andrea D. Carter: self censor, not because they don't care, but because
Andrea D. Carter: speaking up becomes more dangerous. And
Andrea D. Carter: so we talked about cortisol. And so when you're in an environment
Andrea D. Carter: where you're constantly scanning for clarity and predictability, if
Andrea D. Carter: you don't have comfort, you actually can't create psychological safety. And
Andrea D. Carter: so psychological safety then is really about, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, making sure that there's a leader or
Andrea D. Carter: somebody who says, tell me more,
Andrea D. Carter: what is it that I'm missing here? And they lean in with curiosity and not
Andrea D. Carter: defensiveness. They close the loop on things.
Andrea D. Carter: So last week Joanne raised a question about X.
Andrea D. Carter: Here's what we did about it, or here's what we have talked about since then,
Andrea D. Carter: here's what we looked at. You may not actually have the solution
Andrea D. Carter: right then, but just communicating that there
Andrea D. Carter: is, you know, Sorry, that's really loud. Again, it's not me. No,
Joanne Lockwood: no, definitely not. No, nothing here. There's no rain.
Andrea D. Carter: So, you know, when we're looking at those, when we're looking at those
Andrea D. Carter: elements of what makes us feel safe, we're looking
Andrea D. Carter: for the brain shifting
Andrea D. Carter: from, you know, threat scanning to open exploration.
Andrea D. Carter: And so we've had those conversations. You've had those conversations with people that you
Andrea D. Carter: love, you've had those conversations with colleagues, you've had those
Andrea D. Carter: conversations in organisations where you bring something up
Andrea D. Carter: and the defensive pattern is so great, you know, that you can't actually have the
Andrea D. Carter: conversation. And so, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, really, if you want to have those, those moments where
Andrea D. Carter: you're building trust and you're,
Andrea D. Carter: you're creating spaces where people actually lean in, you need
Andrea D. Carter: to do than. You know, we value feedback, really
Andrea D. Carter: we do, and saying it in a town hall because people know
Andrea D. Carter: the truth, right? And they know that if I speak
Andrea D. Carter: up, somebody's gonna say, hey, tell me more about that, or if I speak up,
Andrea D. Carter: and you're met with defensiveness, you know
Andrea D. Carter: that it's actually not psychologically safe. And so
Andrea D. Carter: we see more of the. Latter trying to create that culture. It's making sure
Joanne Lockwood: you have that culture where people know that their contribution,
Joanne Lockwood: they're whistleblowing, their contributor is safety, is actually
Joanne Lockwood: welcomed and encouraged. And I think the airline industry did it
Joanne Lockwood: effectively after some major disasters 20 or 30 years ago where planes
Joanne Lockwood: were dropping out the sky because people were saying, well, if you'd have
Joanne Lockwood: asked me, I'd have told you that the rivets weren't checked. Or we didn't
Joanne Lockwood: this. And now the aircraft industry is now very much a contributor. First
Joanne Lockwood: environment. We want to hear what the problems are. No one's ever going to
Joanne Lockwood: get fired for speaking the truth. And it's a real
Joanne Lockwood: turnaround in the airline industry, certainly. Sure. And we saw, I
Andrea D. Carter: mean, for sure, we saw that with NASA as well. And so
Andrea D. Carter: some of those major explosions were because
Andrea D. Carter: engineers couldn't speak up. And, you know, and we see that all
Andrea D. Carter: the time. I mean, the mining industry, anything, any industry, where
Andrea D. Carter: you're having to look at physical safety, physical
Andrea D. Carter: safety is always driven by psychological safety as well. And if you're
Andrea D. Carter: not creating the condition of comfort and connection, you
Andrea D. Carter: certainly can't create the condition of psychological safety. So you can talk all
Andrea D. Carter: about psychological safety, but if you're not creating those first two conditions,
Andrea D. Carter: you won't actually get that psychological safety. The last
Andrea D. Carter: indicator that is there is well being. And well being is
Andrea D. Carter: what actually renews us, it's what allows us to be resilient.
Andrea D. Carter: And I find this one to be really an interesting indicator,
Andrea D. Carter: even just based on the science and based on the data that we collected
Andrea D. Carter: over the past 150,000 employees that we've worked
Andrea D. Carter: with over the past three years, eight industries. And,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, I keep coming up against employees who say to me,
Andrea D. Carter: managers, leaders who say to me, you know, Andrea, we've done all this
Andrea D. Carter: resilience training, we've given our employees these calm
Andrea D. Carter: apps. We've, you know, provided them with meditations, we've
Andrea D. Carter: given them, you know, yoga and, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: extra benefits, and they're still not bouncing back. Why?
Andrea D. Carter: And my response is always, well, fitting
Andrea D. Carter: in is a hundred percent on the person, 0% on you,
Andrea D. Carter: and belonging is 50, 50. And so if you're
Andrea D. Carter: not creating environments where you're actually factoring in well being,
Andrea D. Carter: what you're saying to all of your employees is this, you
Andrea D. Carter: go figure out how to renew yourself
Andrea D. Carter: and then come back to this environment and we're not gonna change anything.
Andrea D. Carter: But if you can't do it, guess what? You're not good enough.
Andrea D. Carter: And so depression has increased, anxiety
Andrea D. Carter: has increased. We're not creating the infrastructure
Andrea D. Carter: for wellbeing to actually exist. And so what that looks like
Andrea D. Carter: is, you know, you've probably had a leader or a manager,
Andrea D. Carter: excuse me, who sends an email at 11 o'clock@ night. You
Andrea D. Carter: have the. I had this. Oh, my goodness. I couldn't even believe that this happened.
Andrea D. Carter: I was working for an organisation and I had gone into the hospital,
Andrea D. Carter: I was having a gallbladder attack and I Had to have my gallbladder taken
Andrea D. Carter: out. And I'm a consultant, I work within,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, organisations, but I'm not an employee. And
Andrea D. Carter: this VP of HR was initially emailing me and then
Andrea D. Carter: texted me and then WhatsApped me and was like, I need
Andrea D. Carter: this. And I was like, I'm in the hospital. Like, what
Andrea D. Carter: do you want from me? I had never had that experience
Andrea D. Carter: before and when I got back, you know, I said to him, I
Andrea D. Carter: was like, if this is how you are treating your
Andrea D. Carter: consultant, I can't even imagine what the
Andrea D. Carter: conditions are of how you're treating your
Andrea D. Carter: employee. When you have that manager who sends the
Andrea D. Carter: email at 11pm and expects the response by 7am, that VP
Andrea D. Carter: of HR, he didn't wanted a PDF because he wanted to send
Andrea D. Carter: out an email to his ERGs about, you know, the work that
Andrea D. Carter: was being done. He didn't need to send it out right
Andrea D. Carter: then and there. It wasn't a massive urgent, it wasn't
Andrea D. Carter: going to affect anything in the organization.
Andrea D. Carter: Nothing was going to come crashing down because
Andrea D. Carter: those ERG leaders didn't have this PDF. It was all
Andrea D. Carter: about him. And so when you look at that, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, those are examples where you're looking at, if this email
Andrea D. Carter: is sent out 11pm and you're expecting a response by 7am and
Andrea D. Carter: that's the norm, can your employees actually sustain that? Is
Andrea D. Carter: that a sustainable work ethic or a new project gets added to your
Andrea D. Carter: plate without asking whether or not it's already there? You
Andrea D. Carter: know, you start working through lunch, skipping breaks,
Andrea D. Carter: staying late, and these are things where you're like, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: this is. This is. This is just a busy season, but that busy season
Andrea D. Carter: never ends and you're exhausted and your sleep is disrupted
Andrea D. Carter: and, you know, you're irritated coming home to your family,
Andrea D. Carter: that's a nervous system that's not going to recover. Right.
Andrea D. Carter: You're running on fumes and eventually something is going to
Andrea D. Carter: break. And those conditions are the conditions that are
Andrea D. Carter: created by the organization. Those aren't the conditions that
Andrea D. Carter: are necessarily created by the individual. So when we're
Andrea D. Carter: talking about that 50, 50, and you want people to be resilient
Andrea D. Carter: and bounce back and come back to their best self, you have to
Andrea D. Carter: create the conditions so that they can do that. And those can
Andrea D. Carter: also be things like, I'm fully unplugging for this
Andrea D. Carter: vacation. This is really important. I hope when you go on vacation,
Andrea D. Carter: you do the same. Yeah. For real? For real. Or would you just. Or when
Joanne Lockwood: you go home at night, unplug until the morning. Exactly. It's okay.
Andrea D. Carter: It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you are going to send an
Joanne Lockwood: email at 11 o'clock at night, make it quite clear that I've sent this because
Joanne Lockwood: I couldn't sleep. I don't expect you to have any to do anything with it
Joanne Lockwood: until at least 9 o'. Clock. And even then it's not the most important thing
Joanne Lockwood: in your world. If you could just email me back when you get this and
Joanne Lockwood: say, when can I get it? And to set my expectation, that's all I ask
Joanne Lockwood: for. I can't have it for three days. Fine. I can't have it for three
Joanne Lockwood: days. Great. But not everyone has that.
Joanne Lockwood: Not everyone has the resilience to be able to engage at that level, which is
Joanne Lockwood: what I think what you're saying here is all these factors, the
Joanne Lockwood: comfort, the connection, the contribution, the
Joanne Lockwood: wellbeing, it impacts people differently and their
Joanne Lockwood: ability to engage back in that environment. So I might say
Joanne Lockwood: exactly what I just said to you. Sod off. I'm not gonna do that till
Joanne Lockwood: 11 o'. Clock. You're gonna get the best me, middle of the morning, not now.
Joanne Lockwood: Other people might start panicking, as you say, the anxiety that stress is
Joanne Lockwood: gonna, oh my God, I'm gonna let my manager down. They're gonna think badly of
Joanne Lockwood: me, it's gonna affect my career. So different people are gonna
Joanne Lockwood: cascade this differently, aren't they? Yep. Well, and even, I
Andrea D. Carter: mean, we now have automation, right? Like we have all
Andrea D. Carter: of this technology that allows us, sure, write the Damn email at
Andrea D. Carter: 11pm at night, but don't send it. Select
Andrea D. Carter: that you can send it in the morning. You know, just populate that
Andrea D. Carter: you're going to send it at a time that is within working hours,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, and it's not that you're always going to have, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: sometimes you're going to go through situations where things are urgent and people,
Andrea D. Carter: you want people checking, but you don't want that to be the
Andrea D. Carter: absolute norm because the sustainability of that is not, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: that's, that's not a possibility anymore. And so consider what
Andrea D. Carter: you're, what you're talking about. And it might be that
Andrea D. Carter: you're setting the clarity and the predictability of this week while we're going
Andrea D. Carter: through this and while we have this emergency, we need
Andrea D. Carter: all hands on deck and here's the expectation and you might get an
Andrea D. Carter: email after work hours and we do need you to be looking. But that's
Andrea D. Carter: a week, that's not a month, that's not six
Andrea D. Carter: months, you know, that's Not a year, that's not all the time.
Andrea D. Carter: And I think that when you go from
Andrea D. Carter: this happens in times of
Andrea D. Carter: stress and conflict because something's happening within the
Andrea D. Carter: organisation and it's urgent and it's an emergency,
Andrea D. Carter: that's a completely different situation. You know,
Andrea D. Carter: if I had had a report, that would have been the end
Andrea D. Carter: all, be all. If I was the CFO and I was supposed to be presenting
Andrea D. Carter: the next day, you know, clearly that PDF needed to get me
Andrea D. Carter: of hr. But in that moment, no, you know, they
Andrea D. Carter: certainly, it was just his own agenda. And so when you look at some
Andrea D. Carter: of those things, you know, that's when you have performance
Andrea D. Carter: infrastructure. You know that when volatility doesn't break people,
Andrea D. Carter: it strengthens the infrastructure. And when it's working, people
Andrea D. Carter: navigate the change, they navigate the friction, they challenge
Andrea D. Carter: productively instead of defaulting to our
Andrea D. Carter: fight flight. Freeze and faint or detach
Andrea D. Carter: is the great word that certainly is happening now.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know what you're saying here. Absolute, most complete sense. And I've probably always
Joanne Lockwood: thought of the comfort, connection and contribution as part of
Joanne Lockwood: psychological safety. By splitting them out, you really
Joanne Lockwood: are drawing attention to those items separately from
Joanne Lockwood: the inclusion contributor, Challenger and learning safety,
Joanne Lockwood: the traditional models of psychological safety. And I think that's really,
Joanne Lockwood: really powerful to sort of see them in their own right
Joanne Lockwood: at that level. Well, and what's fascinating
Andrea D. Carter: about it is that we can measure it now, right? It's not just looking at
Andrea D. Carter: one question. Like I always love the one question that's on most
Andrea D. Carter: engagement surveys is do you feel you belong here?
Andrea D. Carter: And that is meant to measure belonging and, and, and it doesn't. And so
Andrea D. Carter: unless you're actually measuring for comfort, connection, contribution,
Andrea D. Carter: psychological safety and well being, you actually can't tell
Andrea D. Carter: whether or not belonging is breaking down or whether belonging
Andrea D. Carter: is in a good state. And so, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: even with relationships in general, being able to
Andrea D. Carter: understand, you know, what am I contributing? What are you
Andrea D. Carter: contributing? Is our belonging fragile between us? Can we
Andrea D. Carter: measure it at the management level? Because you'll see
Andrea D. Carter: teams with, with a lot of our organisational surveys, you'll see teams
Andrea D. Carter: where, yeah, okay, great. You know, people are getting the work done and
Andrea D. Carter: they're meeting their targets and they're meeting the
Andrea D. Carter: deadlines, but the team is fracturing and they're falling
Andrea D. Carter: apart and the turnover is increasing
Andrea D. Carter: or, you know, you go from having your top
Andrea D. Carter: contributors all of the sudden not engaging,
Andrea D. Carter: those are, those are signals you can pick up faster
Andrea D. Carter: if you're actually measuring for belonging. And we've been
Andrea D. Carter: doing that and what's fascinating is that it's not just measuring
Andrea D. Carter: for a mean average, which is what most survey data does.
Andrea D. Carter: We're also looking at the average against the outliers. And
Andrea D. Carter: so looking at some of the mediated
Andrea D. Carter: analysis and the multiplicative analysis where we're actually looking
Andrea D. Carter: at, okay, what's the gap between the average and the
Andrea D. Carter: underrepresented and what are the identities that actually create
Andrea D. Carter: your underrepresented? And that's something with dei. I mean everything
Andrea D. Carter: has been very much a factor of you only get one identity.
Andrea D. Carter: And we're intersectional beings. And so how our
Andrea D. Carter: intersections of identity either bring us closer or push us
Andrea D. Carter: further apart is very apparent and well documented.
Andrea D. Carter: And yet if you look in the organisations, organisations
Andrea D. Carter: are typically not even measuring that and
Andrea D. Carter: don't even know how to measure it. And so it is one of those things
Andrea D. Carter: where you really do have to consider
Andrea D. Carter: what that looks like, what you're. Saying there about the outliers versus the
Joanne Lockwood: median. I thought that's really powerful because I've often found when I
Joanne Lockwood: work in organisations that the challenges they focus on the NPS score.
Joanne Lockwood: Look, we're doing great. 86% of our people say they're happy. My question
Joanne Lockwood: is, well, who are the 16% who aren't happy and what do we know about
Joanne Lockwood: those people, the demographic? Can we drill down at that? What insights can
Joanne Lockwood: we get? Because too often people are patting themselves on the back over the
Joanne Lockwood: big number. Not actually every person who's not happy is a person that we're
Joanne Lockwood: failing and why are we failing them? And that's, I think some of the balance,
Joanne Lockwood: I think, so we're saying about looking at the medium and the outliers I think
Joanne Lockwood: is a, is a fascinating way of looking at that and actually understanding the
Joanne Lockwood: demographic rather than just that homogenous number.
Andrea D. Carter: Absolutely. So, you know, really until, until 2022
Andrea D. Carter: I guess was my first publication. So I, I do a lot of,
Andrea D. Carter: I'm also an adjunct professor and so I still have to
Andrea D. Carter: do a lot of research and a lot of journal based
Andrea D. Carter: publishing. And that was the first publication
Andrea D. Carter: that we published on looking at mediation analysis
Andrea D. Carter: and why mediation analysis within the
Andrea D. Carter: organisation is so important. And at the time they
Andrea D. Carter: didn't even have the advanced statistical
Andrea D. Carter: analysis to do it, which is why I think most people
Andrea D. Carter: rely on just the mean averages and, and, and looking
Andrea D. Carter: at simple significance scores in your variables.
Andrea D. Carter: And so you know, when you actually start to unpack
Andrea D. Carter: the data and you look at measuring that gap between
Andrea D. Carter: the norm and the underrepresented and we can use the
Andrea D. Carter: word underrepresented, even based on
Andrea D. Carter: underrepresented for belonging as well. So who are
Andrea D. Carter: the people that don't feel that they belong? But
Andrea D. Carter: that allows you to create predictability within
Andrea D. Carter: who's going to stay and who's going to go. And what's
Andrea D. Carter: fascinating is that most people assume that it's,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, in, in HR, they always label them, well, a
Andrea D. Carter: player or an A employee, a B employee, a C employee.
Andrea D. Carter: And so, you know, when a lot of layoffs are happening, they always get rid
Andrea D. Carter: of the Cs and the half, the Bs, if you will. But those
Andrea D. Carter: A's then become Bs and Cs very quickly.
Andrea D. Carter: And so it's, it's actually not the right way to look at how
Andrea D. Carter: you're, you're looking at your employee base. But understanding
Andrea D. Carter: those metrics is really important because it actually allows you to
Andrea D. Carter: understand where are teams breaking down. And nobody
Andrea D. Carter: succeeds or does their best in a silo. And so when we're
Andrea D. Carter: looking at these elements, you know, it's often not an
Andrea D. Carter: engagement problem, it's often not a passion problem, it's
Andrea D. Carter: often an infrastructure problem. And if you're not measuring
Andrea D. Carter: and measuring in a way that actually tells you what's going on,
Andrea D. Carter: which averages will never tell you what's going on, it's
Andrea D. Carter: very easy to just skim over, you know, the
Andrea D. Carter: situation and give yourself a gold star. It's
Joanne Lockwood: going back to Hertzberg's two factor theory. It's the detractors, it's
Joanne Lockwood: the hygiene issue here that turns A's
Joanne Lockwood: into C's. And it's. People don't set out to be a C person, they set
Joanne Lockwood: out to be the best person they can be. But the environment we're
Joanne Lockwood: creating is detracting to the point where they, they're not
Joanne Lockwood: motivated and organisations still throw all their money at
Joanne Lockwood: motivation, not trying to sort out the root causes and the toxicity
Joanne Lockwood: and the problems that exist. And I dare say, but your
Joanne Lockwood: approach is that you can look for
Joanne Lockwood: patterns of whether leadership is
Joanne Lockwood: failing or not succeeding, and we can look at which teams,
Joanne Lockwood: which leaders, which events are triggering this as well.
Andrea D. Carter: Yeah. And certainly when you look at the behaviours of
Andrea D. Carter: public versus private versus government, you're
Andrea D. Carter: going to see different behaviours across those three
Andrea D. Carter: differentiating factors. You know, we often see the,
Andrea D. Carter: and it's funny because I do spend a lot of time speaking
Andrea D. Carter: with employment, employment lawyers, and they often
Andrea D. Carter: come to me when, you know, there's, there's a big issue
Andrea D. Carter: in trying to sort out the organisation and so I've had,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, numerous conversations about the fact that
Andrea D. Carter: the most toxic organisations are often the
Andrea D. Carter: organisations that started off as family run
Andrea D. Carter: businesses that then became public. And we certainly
Andrea D. Carter: see that if you look at the spirits industry, that
Andrea D. Carter: industry certainly right now, you know, they've lost
Andrea D. Carter: almost all of their top female CEOs and leaders. It's a
Andrea D. Carter: really interesting industry because, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: you're looking at factors where a lot of those alcohol
Andrea D. Carter: companies, spirits companies were born from family
Andrea D. Carter: run businesses that became popular. And you know, most
Andrea D. Carter: businesses start off as something small, family run
Andrea D. Carter: and, and grow. And so if they're not actually fixing
Andrea D. Carter: some of their hierarchical fitting-in practices,
Andrea D. Carter: they're actually weeding out some of their best talent
Andrea D. Carter: before they even get started. And you know, I'm just
Andrea D. Carter: using spirits as, as, as a, as a example. I mean there's many more
Andrea D. Carter: examples. So you know, that's, that's not just
Andrea D. Carter: that industry, but you certainly see that. And so
Andrea D. Carter: when you're looking at these elements, when you're looking at these factors
Andrea D. Carter: where toxicity is swept under the rug because,
Andrea D. Carter: oh well, we scored, oh, we scored 74% on our
Andrea D. Carter: engagement this year and last year it was lower. But
Andrea D. Carter: the survey made you, it was
Andrea D. Carter: very clear that other people, it might not
Andrea D. Carter: be confidential. You know, that's going to change how you
Andrea D. Carter: respond. It's mandatory that you respond to this survey.
Andrea D. Carter: But FYI, it's not necessarily confidential. So
Andrea D. Carter: we'll know what you've said about you. How
Andrea D. Carter: truthful are employees going to be? Especially
Joanne Lockwood: if your sample size in your team or your department, your
Joanne Lockwood: demographic is small. It's, I know most of these survey
Joanne Lockwood: systems do work out. If a population is below 20
Joanne Lockwood: people, then it won't, it'll anonymize it. But there's still a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of areas where you can go, I reckon that was that person there that said
Joanne Lockwood: that based on the answer to that particular question, people can
Joanne Lockwood: draw their conclusions. So yeah, is it truly anonymous? Is it,
Joanne Lockwood: Are you really speaking freely or are you being caged, forgetting if
Joanne Lockwood: I tell the truth there, they'll know it's me. Well, and I guess when you
Andrea D. Carter: look at that too, I always find it fascinating when you're debriefing
Andrea D. Carter: leaders on their survey results and they
Andrea D. Carter: start unpacking instead of getting curious about, okay, so what
Andrea D. Carter: do we do next? How do we solve for this? Why is this so important
Andrea D. Carter: for us right now? Instead of them looking at,
Andrea D. Carter: okay, this is the data that came in, this is our gap
Andrea D. Carter: score. What you'll see is a Lot of leaders
Andrea D. Carter: who don't necessarily understand how they regulate or
Andrea D. Carter: dysregulate a room. They get defensive and instead of
Andrea D. Carter: them looking at what they want to do, they look at who to blame
Andrea D. Carter: and why. Oh, that's gotta be so and so, or that's gotta be because of
Andrea D. Carter: this. And they start rationalising the data,
Andrea D. Carter: mitigating. The problems and things. Yes, yes, yes. It's been a
Joanne Lockwood: tough year, profits are down. I've been stressed as well.
Andrea D. Carter: So, you know, when we look at any conflict or
Andrea D. Carter: friction or problem, even if we just look at
Andrea D. Carter: surveys and we look at, you know, mean averages,
Andrea D. Carter: you're still going to find elements in there where
Andrea D. Carter: you can grow from. They're not meant to be
Andrea D. Carter: accusatory. Survey data is meant to help you
Andrea D. Carter: solve. If you're looking at it through the lens of
Andrea D. Carter: growth. Why have we collected data? Why do we
Andrea D. Carter: collect subjective and qualitative versus
Andrea D. Carter: quantitative data? After any quantitative
Andrea D. Carter: survey data that you're collecting, the next
Andrea D. Carter: thing that you should be doing is looking at, okay,
Andrea D. Carter: so let's get clear on what's actually happening
Andrea D. Carter: here and asking better questions so that you can
Andrea D. Carter: unpack those scores rather than being defensive.
Andrea D. Carter: And I would say what I almost always see, the
Andrea D. Carter: initial reaction is, well, this is because. Or so
Andrea D. Carter: and so did this. This is clearly this department
Andrea D. Carter: and that's really a product of fitting-in culture
Andrea D. Carter: rather than creating belonging culture. And it
Andrea D. Carter: shows up right away. That almost says to me about the culture of the organisation,
Joanne Lockwood: if someone's getting defensive, then they haven't got their own
Joanne Lockwood: belongingness sorted. There's something in there that, where they don't feel,
Joanne Lockwood: they feel under threat. Maybe people are then going to judge them and they can't
Joanne Lockwood: be. Yeah, so all we're doing is passing this
Joanne Lockwood: toxicity pattern up the line and somebody else is picking up now and
Joanne Lockwood: they're feeling uncomfortable. So yeah, it's. And the other problem with
Joanne Lockwood: surveys is they're only valid for the 20 minutes
Joanne Lockwood: that you complete the survey. So if we're doing these once
Joanne Lockwood: a year, twice a year, they really are a small
Joanne Lockwood: snapshot in time. Even if we're doing these micro surveys, these
Joanne Lockwood: pulse surveys about how you feel right now, these daily, daily touch points,
Joanne Lockwood: checking in with people, then all we're going to get is historic
Joanne Lockwood: how it was six months ago. Yeah, that's right. And so your
Andrea D. Carter: pulse surveys, your one on ones, your check-ins,
Andrea D. Carter: your weekly check-ins, all of those things add to
Andrea D. Carter: the greater build of that data and your survey
Andrea D. Carter: data. But you know, a lot of HR departments
Andrea D. Carter: Functions are not necessarily looking at
Andrea D. Carter: structuring how that's possible so that people
Andrea D. Carter: can learn in real time. So what I see on average, and
Andrea D. Carter: you know, even just recently I had, you know, an HR
Andrea D. Carter: director come to me and you know, she was talking
Andrea D. Carter: about ergs and you know, she said, we've got like
Andrea D. Carter: eight active ergs. Our ERG leaders are exhausted,
Andrea D. Carter: they're threatening to step down. You know, I've
Andrea D. Carter: launched six new initiatives in the past year to
Andrea D. Carter: support them. The engagement is lower than when we
Andrea D. Carter: started. Our executives are, you know, asking me
Andrea D. Carter: to justify why we're investing in these ergs when
Andrea D. Carter: the business results are improving, you know, and
Andrea D. Carter: you can hear the frustration and the frustration
Andrea D. Carter: isn't unique and it's because HR has typically
Andrea D. Carter: been an initiative based role, but initiatives
Andrea D. Carter: aren't infrastructure. And so the more we're putting
Andrea D. Carter: on people without building infrastructure, the harder
Andrea D. Carter: it is for organisations to actually
Andrea D. Carter: create those environments. And so if we look at DEI and we look at,
Andrea D. Carter: at belonging and we look at culture and toxicity, a lot of this is
Andrea D. Carter: because people are burning out. Ergs are certainly burning out because
Andrea D. Carter: they've been giving everything nights, weekends, emotional
Andrea D. Carter: labour, strategic thinking and all of that work disappears a lot of
Andrea D. Carter: time, you know, it's, we're not sustaining them, we're not supporting them. HR
Andrea D. Carter: teams are. You know, we've seen all of the McKinsey reports
Andrea D. Carter: and certainly Gallup about how frustrated HR teams
Andrea D. Carter: are right now in creating programme after programming. You know, whether
Andrea D. Carter: that's mentorship platforms, leadership training, executive
Andrea D. Carter: roundtables, engagement surveys like we were just talking about,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, there the complaint is always, well, you know,
Andrea D. Carter: nothing's moving the needle on retention or performance. And it's like,
Andrea D. Carter: yeah, because all we're doing is throwing an initiative after
Andrea D. Carter: an initiative after an initiative. And we're not actually even listening to
Andrea D. Carter: the ERG leaders who have so much data and influence
Andrea D. Carter: and all of their work is just going into the void.
Andrea D. Carter: We're not actually leveraging it or using it. And so,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, I'm actually in the middle of writing a 15
Andrea D. Carter: article series specifically on this because it's become
Andrea D. Carter: such a problem and talking specifically about why the
Andrea D. Carter: infrastructure of belonging is so critically important.
Andrea D. Carter: And Jo, something that you said is still sitting with me is
Andrea D. Carter: that, you know, when leaders don't feel that they belong
Andrea D. Carter: and I think as you go up through the levels,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, leadership can be incredibly lonely because you often don't have
Andrea D. Carter: people that you can speak to about what the challenges are
Andrea D. Carter: freely and openly. And so there's A lot of confidentiality that goes into
Andrea D. Carter: what you're allowed to say and what you're not allowed to say. However, that
Andrea D. Carter: belonging also starts with self first.
Andrea D. Carter: And so, you know, when we're looking at how you're
Andrea D. Carter: belonging to yourself and then what you're giving to your organisation, you actually
Andrea D. Carter: can see the gaps of where people give themselves
Andrea D. Carter: comfort. How clear are they about what they need in order
Andrea D. Carter: for them to create predictability and regulate their own work and their
Andrea D. Carter: own experience? And so that belongingness and the
Andrea D. Carter: indicators of belonging are as much a measurement of
Andrea D. Carter: self relationship as they are to another, or as they
Andrea D. Carter: are to a team, or as they are to a greater team or
Andrea D. Carter: environment. And so you can measure it in schools, you can measure it in
Andrea D. Carter: organisations, communities, and also
Andrea D. Carter: with yourself. Do you think some of this is from a corporate
Joanne Lockwood: perspective, from a workplace perspective? It's mapping on to the
Joanne Lockwood: world. We're living in a time where there's a lot of tension,
Joanne Lockwood: whether it's political leaders, polemic rhetoric, divisive
Joanne Lockwood: statements. We have situations going on in Eastern Europe, we have
Joanne Lockwood: situations going on in the Middle east, we have situations going on
Joanne Lockwood: in South America, situations all over the world. At the moment,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a whole lot. There's a lot of tension. If you've got the
Joanne Lockwood: news, look at the media. There's a lot of things that are raising
Joanne Lockwood: everybody's anxiety levels in the world. And is that. Do you think it's being
Joanne Lockwood: mapped into the workplace where people are feeling this tension? Well, you
Andrea D. Carter: can't separate. The thing is, is that you can't separate information.
Andrea D. Carter: The way that your brain works, your brain doesn't separate,
Andrea D. Carter: compartmentalise information. And so, you know, you're waking up in
Andrea D. Carter: the morning and, you know, maybe you pick up your phone or
Andrea D. Carter: maybe you're on social media and depending on what algorithms you're
Andrea D. Carter: looking at, you know, what news you're getting, you're
Andrea D. Carter: always going to see something that triggers.
Andrea D. Carter: And media is right now designed to trigger us to
Andrea D. Carter: generate a reaction so that it actually stops us from
Andrea D. Carter: scrolling. And so of
Andrea D. Carter: course we bring that into work and of course it then shapes our day and
Andrea D. Carter: of course that our day at work shapes how we show up at home with
Andrea D. Carter: our loved ones. And so the brain doesn't
Andrea D. Carter: separate that, it just layers it on. And
Andrea D. Carter: so when we look at those elements, not
Andrea D. Carter: understanding your own regulation is
Andrea D. Carter: also something that is incredibly important right
Andrea D. Carter: now. And, you know, one of the first studies that we did
Andrea D. Carter: 11 years ago looked at whether or not DEI
Andrea D. Carter: would polarise or bring people Together and the way it was
Andrea D. Carter: being rolled out at the time showed it would
Andrea D. Carter: polarise. And I mean, here we are and it has polarised, but
Andrea D. Carter: I think it's polarised because of what it
Andrea D. Carter: needed to unveil. And so we're now in this
Andrea D. Carter: space and time where we're looking
Andrea D. Carter: at the distinction between individuals and
Andrea D. Carter: collective thinking. There's always been tension around
Andrea D. Carter: that. The problem is, is that belonging is
Andrea D. Carter: very inconvenient. And what I mean by that is
Andrea D. Carter: belonging requires you to work through the friction even
Andrea D. Carter: when you don't want to. And so that element becomes
Andrea D. Carter: challenging when we're working in spaces or we're
Andrea D. Carter: living in spaces where friction has essentially
Andrea D. Carter: been taken out. And what I mean by that is, you know, if
Andrea D. Carter: somebody doesn't like someone, we stop speaking to them. If, you
Andrea D. Carter: know, if something is. Is too hard, we stop
Andrea D. Carter: and we don't show up. You know, we might say we're gonna go to this
Andrea D. Carter: function and then, oh, well, actually, I'm not feeling up to it tonight, so I'm
Andrea D. Carter: not gonna go. And so it becomes very tricky because
Andrea D. Carter: you can't navigate around that unless you change
Andrea D. Carter: your own behaviour. And you understand that friction and conflict is also
Andrea D. Carter: part of your growth. And so I think what
Andrea D. Carter: we've created and we've certainly seen on global stages is
Andrea D. Carter: that we have to be able to work through things. And otherwise,
Andrea D. Carter: you know, when we don't work through things, this is where, you know, wars
Andrea D. Carter: and violence and physical threat
Andrea D. Carter: really becomes a reality. And so we're seeing on a global
Andrea D. Carter: stage, those leaders who understand
Andrea D. Carter: what it means to work through friction and conflict and
Andrea D. Carter: those leaders who are going to stick to their individual perspective.
Andrea D. Carter: And I think it's, am I winning or are we winning
Andrea D. Carter: or how are we creating winning together? And
Andrea D. Carter: because we've eliminated friction, we've actually eliminated
Andrea D. Carter: a lot of what it means to win collectively.
Joanne Lockwood: Andrea, thank you so much. It's been an insightful conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: How can people get hold of you? Yeah, so probably
Andrea D. Carter: the easiest way, what I'd love to
Andrea D. Carter: offer up, is a way for you to
Andrea D. Carter: actually look at your own belonging metrics. Now,
Andrea D. Carter: this is a very simple way of assessing the belonging that
Andrea D. Carter: you're giving someone and the belonging that you're receiving. But you can go to
Andrea D. Carter: belongingfirst.com forward slash,
Andrea D. Carter: belonging breakdown. And it allows you to really
Andrea D. Carter: easily assess what belonging you're giving and what you're
Andrea D. Carter: receiving with a specific person. So you can do that with yourself, you can do
Andrea D. Carter: that with a specific work colleague or person in your world.
Andrea D. Carter: And just see that initial
Andrea D. Carter: assessment, what you're giving and what you're receiving. So I would highly recommend
Andrea D. Carter: doing that. Also, please feel free to join me on
Andrea D. Carter: Substack and for that you're just going to Substack
Andrea D. Carter: Andrea D. Carter. You can access a lot of the writing I've been
Andrea D. Carter: doing and certainly that article that I'll. Or the 15 articles I'll be
Andrea D. Carter: writing. And then of course, please join me on LinkedIn at Andrea
Andrea D. Carter: D. Carter as well on LinkedIn. Fabulous. I'll go and
Joanne Lockwood: hunt you down on Substack immediately as soon as we hang up. Wonderful. Thanks so
Andrea D. Carter: much, Joanne, for having me. A pleasure. And
Joanne Lockwood: thank you so much. As we bring this conversation
Joanne Lockwood: to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to
Joanne Lockwood: you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart
Joanne Lockwood: to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a
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Joanne Lockwood: joanne.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's
Joanne Lockwood: make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more
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Joanne Lockwood: unite us. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one
Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.