WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.267 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.267 --> 00:00:14.641 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.641 --> 00:00:18.549 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration 4 00:00:18.549 --> 00:00:22.455 into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.455 --> 00:00:26.451 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to 6 00:00:26.451 --> 00:00:30.446 create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, 7 00:00:30.446 --> 00:00:34.265 but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover 8 00:00:34.265 --> 00:00:37.727 the unseen, challenge the status quo and share 9 00:00:37.727 --> 00:00:41.634 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? 10 00:00:41.634 --> 00:00:45.099 Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or 11 00:00:45.099 --> 00:00:49.095 winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect 12 00:00:49.095 --> 00:00:53.091 and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be 13 00:00:53.091 --> 00:00:56.199 part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:56.199 --> 00:01:00.106 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your 15 00:01:00.106 --> 00:01:03.990 insights or to join me on the show. So adjust 16 00:01:03.990 --> 00:01:07.950 your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the 17 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:10.830 spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:18.270 And today is episode 212 with the title 19 00:01:18.580 --> 00:01:22.300 Equity by Design. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 20 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:25.820 Celeste Warren. Celeste is a diversity, equity and 21 00:01:25.820 --> 00:01:29.660 inclusion strategist, an author, speaker and the founder 22 00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:33.460 of Celeste Warren Consulting, with over three decades of experience 23 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:37.540 helping organisations embed equity and build inclusive cultures 24 00:01:37.540 --> 00:01:41.460 that drive meaningful and sustainable outcomes. When I asked Celeste to 25 00:01:41.460 --> 00:01:45.300 describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to connect heart 26 00:01:45.300 --> 00:01:49.080 and and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusion 27 00:01:49.080 --> 00:01:53.040 into clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today. 28 00:01:53.440 --> 00:01:57.320 Hello, Celeste, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for 29 00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:01.080 the invitation. I'm glad to be here, absolute pleasure. We're having a quick chit 30 00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:04.560 chat earlier in the. In the green room. And whereabouts in the world are you 31 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.560 now? I am in, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's about two and a half 32 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.240 hours from New York City and on the east coast of the United States 33 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:16.370 and it is absolutely freezing here. We've had a very, very cold 34 00:02:16.370 --> 00:02:20.370 snap that is a little bit unusual for this part of the country but, 35 00:02:21.490 --> 00:02:25.250 but we're hanging in there, trying to stay warm. But I'm originally from, 36 00:02:25.330 --> 00:02:29.210 from Pennsylvania, the state of Pennsylvania, but western Pennsylvania, 37 00:02:29.210 --> 00:02:32.530 which is a small steel mill town. And 38 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:36.890 my father was the first black teacher, black 39 00:02:36.890 --> 00:02:40.660 principal in that area. And, and so, you know, my, 40 00:02:41.300 --> 00:02:45.300 I guess we call it origin storey or backstory. I grew up in a 41 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:49.300 household. There were five kids, mom and dad, and as I said, my dad 42 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:53.060 was the first black teacher, first black principal in that area. 43 00:02:53.140 --> 00:02:57.100 And every day that he would come home, my mom would say 44 00:02:57.100 --> 00:03:01.060 at the dinner table, you know, hey honey, how was your day? And that would 45 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:05.660 start a conversation that really was ingrained 46 00:03:05.660 --> 00:03:09.170 in me as a child. I all the way through my adult 47 00:03:09.170 --> 00:03:13.050 journey and he would talk about the challenges that he faced being 48 00:03:13.050 --> 00:03:17.010 the first black man, you know, in this area. And, you know, what he had 49 00:03:17.010 --> 00:03:20.890 to go through, some of the obstacles, some of the barriers, and then he 50 00:03:20.890 --> 00:03:23.890 didn't just sit there at the dinner table and 51 00:03:24.370 --> 00:03:28.370 complain. He then would say, and here's what I did about it. 52 00:03:28.530 --> 00:03:32.490 Because he wanted to teach us, his children, that the colour of 53 00:03:32.490 --> 00:03:36.370 your skin, your gender, how you identify is. It may cause 54 00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:40.350 you problems throughout life, challenges throughout life, but don't let 55 00:03:40.350 --> 00:03:44.230 that stop you from being able to achieve whatever it is that you desire to 56 00:03:44.230 --> 00:03:48.070 achieve. And that was sort of. I got a front row seat to 57 00:03:48.070 --> 00:03:51.910 that my entire childhood and teenage 58 00:03:51.910 --> 00:03:55.870 years. And that just was, if you can imagine, just ingrained 59 00:03:55.870 --> 00:03:59.670 in me throughout my formative years. That's sort of 60 00:03:59.670 --> 00:04:03.630 what's grounded me into the work that I am doing today. 61 00:04:03.790 --> 00:04:06.990 Wow, that's a fascinating backstory in origin. It's. 62 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:12.110 I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I think you've had what 63 00:04:12.110 --> 00:04:15.990 sounds like a really good foundational upbringing around some of the 64 00:04:15.990 --> 00:04:19.910 good principles of what it is in the world. And I sometimes wonder whether 65 00:04:20.310 --> 00:04:24.270 our modern generation are being brought up with that 66 00:04:24.270 --> 00:04:27.990 level of resilience and robustness to be able to challenge and stand up. 67 00:04:27.990 --> 00:04:31.990 And maybe it's our social media world, maybe it's the way we're bringing people 68 00:04:31.990 --> 00:04:35.990 up now. We seem to be very quick to react and weaponize our particular 69 00:04:35.990 --> 00:04:39.420 characteristic rather than actually say, I've got this now, how can I make. 70 00:04:40.210 --> 00:04:44.170 Yeah, yeah, you know, well, we, you know, coming up for those of us that 71 00:04:44.170 --> 00:04:48.170 are on that other side of 50, we didn't have social media, we 72 00:04:48.170 --> 00:04:51.970 didn't have the Internet, we didn't have, you know, email, we didn't have the 73 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:55.890 technology that could connect people like they do today, 74 00:04:55.970 --> 00:04:59.970 like my children do today. And also, too, is that sort 75 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:03.890 of, you know, you talked about that reaction, being able to, I mean, just 76 00:05:03.890 --> 00:05:07.890 reacting to stuff immediately without sort of thinking about 77 00:05:07.890 --> 00:05:11.740 it and that. And sometimes, you know, you get 78 00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:14.900 that keyboard courage and you put stuff out there 79 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:19.220 without really filtering it and thinking through it. And I think growing up, 80 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:23.300 we had the opportunity to think things through, 81 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:26.780 at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think 82 00:05:26.780 --> 00:05:30.100 about the consequences of your actions. And 83 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:33.540 that sort of just sort of just stayed with us. And we didn't have a 84 00:05:33.540 --> 00:05:37.530 choice because there was nothing sort of quick in the moment 85 00:05:37.850 --> 00:05:41.690 that from a technology standpoint that would, that would put 86 00:05:41.690 --> 00:05:45.610 things out there across the globe, you know, like the Internet does 87 00:05:45.610 --> 00:05:49.370 now. And like social media, you might react in the moment, but the only person 88 00:05:49.370 --> 00:05:52.490 that would see it is people that are around four or five people, maybe that 89 00:05:52.490 --> 00:05:55.850 are around you. So it was a very different time than it is right now. 90 00:05:55.850 --> 00:05:59.073 You know, there's good and there's also, you know, 91 00:05:59.073 --> 00:06:03.063 opportunities as well. But I just think that growing up the way 92 00:06:03.063 --> 00:06:06.671 I did, when I did, where I did, with those circumstances, 93 00:06:06.671 --> 00:06:10.583 really helped me from a foundational standpoint, because it 94 00:06:10.583 --> 00:06:14.189 really taught me, okay, you are a black woman in the world 95 00:06:14.189 --> 00:06:18.178 today, and there are going to be challenges, there are going to 96 00:06:18.178 --> 00:06:22.090 be obstacles. You know, he didn't paint the world as rosy, you 97 00:06:22.090 --> 00:06:25.849 know, but he also said, I don't ever want you to use that as an 98 00:06:25.849 --> 00:06:29.454 excuse as to why you can't achieve throughout your life. 99 00:06:29.454 --> 00:06:33.057 That's kind of the lesson that he. That he taught us by the 100 00:06:33.057 --> 00:06:36.739 conversation that he would have at the dinner table. And I 101 00:06:36.739 --> 00:06:40.498 thought that was really, really important. I remember one 102 00:06:40.498 --> 00:06:44.334 story that he told me that just has always stuck with me. I was 103 00:06:44.334 --> 00:06:48.312 in. I was home for college, and he was telling me a story about 104 00:06:48.312 --> 00:06:52.188 how when he. After he got his master's degree in education and 105 00:06:52.188 --> 00:06:56.140 he. He got his master's degree in English, and so he was hired at 106 00:06:56.140 --> 00:06:59.864 the school, but they didn't hire him as an English teacher. 107 00:06:59.864 --> 00:07:03.436 They hired him as a gym teacher in the gymnasium, and they 108 00:07:03.436 --> 00:07:07.312 didn't have a gymnasium. That's the sad thing about it. And so 109 00:07:07.312 --> 00:07:11.112 he had to teach the students in the parking lot of the school. 110 00:07:11.112 --> 00:07:14.912 And so he's teaching the kids, you know, physical education 111 00:07:14.912 --> 00:07:18.674 and all of that. And. And when he would be out there, the. The kids 112 00:07:18.674 --> 00:07:22.582 that he was teaching, the parents of those children would come and park 113 00:07:22.582 --> 00:07:26.556 their cars in the parking lot and watch him as he was teaching these kids, 114 00:07:26.556 --> 00:07:30.530 and he's telling me the story. And I was kind of like getting angry, like, 115 00:07:30.530 --> 00:07:34.370 well, what did they think you were going to do to their children? And he 116 00:07:34.370 --> 00:07:38.276 said, well, I don't know. He said, you know, I was a black teacher. They. 117 00:07:38.276 --> 00:07:41.985 They weren't used to black teachers. And so they. I said, did you get 118 00:07:41.985 --> 00:07:45.760 angry? Did, like, what did you do? And he said, no, I didn't get angry. 119 00:07:45.770 --> 00:07:49.515 I just taught the kids. I did my job. And then he said, you 120 00:07:49.515 --> 00:07:53.507 know what happened? One by one, those cars went away till it 121 00:07:53.507 --> 00:07:57.334 got to a point where no parents felt a need to come and park 122 00:07:57.334 --> 00:08:01.242 their cars and watch me teach their kids. They. They then, 123 00:08:01.242 --> 00:08:04.987 they finally built a gymnasium. And then eventually he 124 00:08:04.987 --> 00:08:08.976 ended up an opening occurred in the English department and 125 00:08:08.976 --> 00:08:12.884 he was able to teach English and then, you know, his career 126 00:08:12.884 --> 00:08:16.630 throughout administration as well. That story kind of 127 00:08:16.630 --> 00:08:20.457 stuck with me because he overcame the adversity of those 128 00:08:20.457 --> 00:08:24.365 parents not trusting him to teach their kids by just doing 129 00:08:24.365 --> 00:08:28.273 his job and doing it well until they eventually, probably 130 00:08:28.273 --> 00:08:32.181 the kids probably went home and told their parents, like, 131 00:08:32.181 --> 00:08:35.844 why are you coming and parking there and watching, you 132 00:08:35.844 --> 00:08:39.495 know, Mr. Phillips, that's, that's crazy. He's a nice 133 00:08:39.495 --> 00:08:43.306 teacher, he's very good. And we're learning a lot from him 134 00:08:43.306 --> 00:08:46.800 about physical education and how to stay healthy and 135 00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:50.534 etcetera, etcetera. And so he had, in that process, he's 136 00:08:50.534 --> 00:08:54.504 built the trust of those students and then ultimately built 137 00:08:54.504 --> 00:08:58.236 the trust of the parents as well. And that story has stuck 138 00:08:58.236 --> 00:09:01.967 with me for decades. And it's been a lesson around how I go 139 00:09:01.967 --> 00:09:05.700 about doing what I do and have done throughout my career. 140 00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:09.937 In a way, that's building your own affinity bias, isn't it? Because if we 141 00:09:09.937 --> 00:09:13.919 don't know people, they're in and out group, we don't trust them, we don't 142 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:17.835 want to communicate with them, we don't engage with them, we don't value 143 00:09:17.835 --> 00:09:21.687 them. But as soon as you start to become comfortable and know someone's 144 00:09:21.687 --> 00:09:25.474 story, no one's capability, then they become part of your in group and 145 00:09:25.474 --> 00:09:29.000 then you can start to trust and engage. It sounds like that's what 146 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.591 happened in that scenario where at first this person was an Other. 147 00:09:32.591 --> 00:09:36.575 They're on the outside, there's no trust. And it took that pattern of this 148 00:09:36.575 --> 00:09:40.229 person seems to be, okay, I'll trust them, you trust them, we're all 149 00:09:40.229 --> 00:09:43.754 trusting them. No, there's no story here, we can move on. And it's 150 00:09:43.754 --> 00:09:47.474 building that affinity bias, if you like, proactively to bring that 151 00:09:47.474 --> 00:09:51.380 person into your circle of trust, isn't it? That's exactly it. And 152 00:09:51.380 --> 00:09:54.540 he didn't do anything differently. He didn't, you know, because I can, you know, 153 00:09:55.260 --> 00:09:59.140 you can imagine someone with a different temperament might have walked up 154 00:09:59.140 --> 00:10:02.900 to those parents in the car and banged on the window. What are you doing? 155 00:10:02.900 --> 00:10:06.860 And why are you watching me? And that, that definitely was not the 156 00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:10.350 temperament of my dad, but he just did his job 157 00:10:10.510 --> 00:10:14.510 and, and instilled trust and with, with everyone. 158 00:10:14.670 --> 00:10:18.430 And you're exact, you're exactly right to the point when he passed away 159 00:10:19.070 --> 00:10:22.910 in 20, about. Well, it's been close to eight 160 00:10:22.910 --> 00:10:26.670 years now. When he passed away, they lined the streets 161 00:10:26.670 --> 00:10:30.350 when we were going from the, the church to the cemetery. 162 00:10:30.430 --> 00:10:34.320 They Lined the streets, the students lined the streets in front of the 163 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.880 school to say goodbye to him. And he had been retired from the school system 164 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.320 for many, many years at that point. And they actually 165 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:45.080 named, they renamed the elementary school after him. 166 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.920 And so, yeah, and so it's, it's, you know, when you talk about 167 00:10:48.920 --> 00:10:52.880 legacy, when you talk about that, that the characteristics and 168 00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:56.840 the behaviours and the mindset of someone who, in his 169 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:00.650 own way, he was bringing about change, he was bringing 170 00:11:00.650 --> 00:11:04.410 about societal change, organisational change throughout his career, 171 00:11:04.650 --> 00:11:08.650 because he was paving the way for others to be able to come in after 172 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:12.730 him and do what he did in that. In that school district and 173 00:11:12.730 --> 00:11:16.610 in, in the community as well. I'm just trying to phrase this into, into 174 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:19.450 the thinking that it seems such a. 175 00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:23.770 It's a burden on people 176 00:11:25.060 --> 00:11:28.940 who are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds. However you want to 177 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:32.580 describe individuals, it's incumbent upon them to behave in a way 178 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:36.780 that makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get the 179 00:11:36.780 --> 00:11:40.340 change acted. Whereas if you were from a majority 180 00:11:40.740 --> 00:11:43.980 background, you would just be you and not have to think about all this, not 181 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:47.860 carry the weight of responsibility or whiteness on your shoulders. You just 182 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:51.540 are. Whereas as soon as you've got a characteristic, you then represent. 183 00:11:52.020 --> 00:11:55.800 And that's a real burden that minority people face. Is it? Is it? Oh, yeah, 184 00:11:55.800 --> 00:11:59.640 it was hugely that way for decades, well, 185 00:11:59.640 --> 00:12:03.640 probably centuries, but. But it was very much that was sort 186 00:12:03.640 --> 00:12:07.520 of the weight that we carried. And, you know, you fill in the blank of 187 00:12:07.520 --> 00:12:11.280 marginalised group, whatever identity that. That was the weight. I 188 00:12:11.280 --> 00:12:14.040 think now what we're trying to teach 189 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:20.680 individuals is be you don't try to carry that 190 00:12:20.680 --> 00:12:24.460 weight because that, that's unfair. You know, one of the things that I 191 00:12:24.460 --> 00:12:28.220 know, my father knew, my grandfather knew and grandmother and mother 192 00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:32.300 was that was unfair for us to have to carry that weight 193 00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:36.140 throughout our lives. You know, life is. Can be hard enough 194 00:12:36.300 --> 00:12:40.220 without having to have to carry that weight of. You have to 195 00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:43.900 make sure you're doing, especially in this day and age, at least in the United 196 00:12:43.900 --> 00:12:47.380 States, Black women are really, you know, it's just very 197 00:12:47.380 --> 00:12:51.220 challenging right now with the, the job situation 198 00:12:51.380 --> 00:12:55.340 being what it is. Black women are the ones that are losing the 199 00:12:55.340 --> 00:12:59.180 most as far as jobs in the United States. And there's 200 00:12:59.180 --> 00:13:03.060 that, there's that tightrope 201 00:13:03.060 --> 00:13:06.580 that you're walking regardless of your identity, if you're in a 202 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:10.660 minority group. But it's tightrope of, well, I want 203 00:13:10.660 --> 00:13:14.580 to be respected for who I am. I can't 204 00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:18.610 act in a certain way because Then I will fall into 205 00:13:18.770 --> 00:13:22.490 the stereotype of that they have for people who 206 00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:25.890 identify as I do. And so I need to make sure I'm, like, walking this 207 00:13:25.890 --> 00:13:29.730 thin line. And it's very exhausting. It's so exhausting. 208 00:13:30.050 --> 00:13:33.930 And so, you know, taking the time to say, this 209 00:13:33.930 --> 00:13:37.730 is me, this is who I am, and, you know, not in a way 210 00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:41.730 that's disrespectful to yourself or to others, but just 211 00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:45.500 basically saying, this is what I bring to the table. This is the value that 212 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:49.300 I bring. This is who I am. And I bring a value 213 00:13:49.540 --> 00:13:53.540 that will benefit, whether it be an organisation or a team or whatever 214 00:13:53.540 --> 00:13:57.380 the entity is. But I bring a value because 215 00:13:57.460 --> 00:14:00.579 of who I am. And we need to kind of flip the switch a bit. 216 00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:03.380 I have a T shirt that I just got. I saw it. Where did I 217 00:14:03.380 --> 00:14:06.020 see it? I think I saw it on Instagram and I was like, I got 218 00:14:06.020 --> 00:14:09.700 to have that. And it has be you. The world will adjust. 219 00:14:10.090 --> 00:14:13.970 And I thought, oh, how nice is that? That? And it's just. That's the 220 00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:17.850 lesson that I like to teach young, young people when I talk to students 221 00:14:17.930 --> 00:14:21.770 at universities and my own children who are, you know, in their 222 00:14:21.770 --> 00:14:25.770 20s, is be you. Because if you try to 223 00:14:25.770 --> 00:14:29.570 be somebody else, especially in an organisation, you know, you 224 00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:33.490 come to a company and you. You sort of act like 225 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:37.060 you think they want you to act, that is 226 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:40.940 exhausting. You can't do that for a sustained period of time. It's just not sustainable. 227 00:14:40.940 --> 00:14:44.860 And so make sure that you are yourself because you bring 228 00:14:44.860 --> 00:14:48.860 a value to whatever entity, organisation, group, team that you're. 229 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:52.620 That you're entering in. And if you didn't, then they wouldn't have brought you 230 00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:56.220 in. And so make sure that you always understand that and hold your head up 231 00:14:56.220 --> 00:15:00.100 high and contribute in the best way that you know how to contribute. 232 00:15:00.180 --> 00:15:04.130 You're so right about this being yourself. And I think we talk a 233 00:15:04.130 --> 00:15:07.650 lot these days about authenticity, don't we? The. The fact that there's a fine line 234 00:15:07.650 --> 00:15:11.570 between being authentic and being unfiltered, isn't there? You see, 235 00:15:11.570 --> 00:15:15.130 you need to be accountable for your authenticity as well. Oh, 236 00:15:15.130 --> 00:15:18.930 absolutely. You know, I. When I talk with folks, I was 10 237 00:15:18.930 --> 00:15:22.770 years as a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer with a Fortune 50 company, 238 00:15:23.410 --> 00:15:26.690 and one of the things that I would get challenged sometimes 239 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:30.820 by folks is like, well, I want to be my true self. I want to 240 00:15:30.820 --> 00:15:34.260 be my authentic self. And I said, it's, 241 00:15:34.420 --> 00:15:38.220 yes, we want you to be your authentic self because you bring value 242 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:41.980 to the organisation, but understand that you are in an 243 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:45.900 organisation. And that organisation, the foundations of that 244 00:15:45.900 --> 00:15:49.900 organisation, is treating people with dignity and respect. And if the 245 00:15:49.900 --> 00:15:53.660 true you isn't someone who can treat people with dignity and 246 00:15:53.660 --> 00:15:57.380 respect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else, 247 00:15:57.540 --> 00:16:01.100 because that's not foundationally the culture that we, that we 248 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:04.420 nurture within the organisation. And so there's a difference between, 249 00:16:05.140 --> 00:16:08.980 I like to say there's a difference between business casual 250 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:12.820 wear and come as you are. And business casual 251 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:16.100 is, you know, still, still 252 00:16:16.420 --> 00:16:20.380 professional, but it, but it's, it's, it's 253 00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:24.370 comfortable for you. So you can think, you know, in the workplace and 254 00:16:24.370 --> 00:16:28.250 be productive, but come as you are. As you walk out of bed and 255 00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:31.650 you come work with flip flops and shorts on. That's not the same thing. And 256 00:16:31.650 --> 00:16:35.570 so it's exactly what you said about the filter. You have a 257 00:16:35.570 --> 00:16:39.290 responsibility and accountability to, yes, speak your 258 00:16:39.290 --> 00:16:43.250 mind, but do it in a way that you still maintain 259 00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:47.130 dignity and respect of your colleagues. One of the challenges I see in the 260 00:16:47.130 --> 00:16:50.958 world at the moment is the DEI pushback or the DEI must die type type 261 00:16:50.958 --> 00:16:54.925 sort of rhetoric that's out there, that what seems to be happening is 262 00:16:54.925 --> 00:16:58.755 the people who are the majority, the incumbent, the monoculture, 263 00:16:58.755 --> 00:17:02.514 whatever it may be, are now saying, well, hang on a minute, people 264 00:17:02.514 --> 00:17:06.341 keep telling me I can't do this, I can't behave that way, I've got to 265 00:17:06.341 --> 00:17:10.101 behave in a certain way and why can't I be authentic? Why can't I be 266 00:17:10.101 --> 00:17:14.069 myself? Why can't I have my views? Everybody I know has similar views 267 00:17:14.069 --> 00:17:17.340 to me. I'm not in a minority. And what we, what we seem to be 268 00:17:17.340 --> 00:17:21.099 doing here is that in the situation where we're almost competing 269 00:17:21.099 --> 00:17:24.928 with whose views are palatable in our organisations, in society, 270 00:17:24.928 --> 00:17:28.826 how do we rationalise those two perspectives? Where does the power 271 00:17:28.826 --> 00:17:32.280 and the culture lie there? Well, I think 272 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.680 that, first of all, people have different perspectives and 273 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:40.640 different views. That's the world that we live in and we've always lived in 274 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.130 that world. Everybody has different perspectives, different ideas, different 275 00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:48.050 beliefs, and that's fine. But you have to be able 276 00:17:48.290 --> 00:17:51.570 to have productive conversations about those different 277 00:17:51.570 --> 00:17:55.130 perspectives in a way that respects other 278 00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:59.010 people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other 279 00:17:59.010 --> 00:18:02.970 people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a 280 00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:06.610 way that doesn't say that because you believe that 281 00:18:06.770 --> 00:18:10.570 or you feel that you're less than and you don't count 282 00:18:10.810 --> 00:18:14.570 and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything. 283 00:18:14.810 --> 00:18:18.730 And that's where I think sometimes people Sort of lose perspective 284 00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:22.330 because you and I can have a great discussion about something 285 00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:26.330 and we can decide, agree to disagree and walk away 286 00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:30.330 and still be colleagues and associates. And that's the piece that I think 287 00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:34.090 that we've forgotten. And another thing too is, you know, with diversity, 288 00:18:34.090 --> 00:18:37.730 equity, inclusion, they just, they have looked at this 289 00:18:38.130 --> 00:18:41.690 as something that it isn't. So diversity is simply 290 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:45.010 differences in people. Those you can see and those you can't see. 291 00:18:45.090 --> 00:18:48.610 Organisations are not run by robots, most of them, but 292 00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:52.770 robots were created by humans. So the human element 293 00:18:52.850 --> 00:18:56.570 is in every organisation, every ecosystem. And so that's 294 00:18:56.570 --> 00:18:59.730 diversity. The differences in all those, in all those people. 295 00:19:00.050 --> 00:19:03.460 Inclusion is, you have to surround them with this 296 00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:07.020 culture that all of those differences 297 00:19:07.580 --> 00:19:11.340 can be leveraged in a way that gets you to this 298 00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:15.220 collective purpose. And if we were talking about an organisation, that collective 299 00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:19.100 purpose would be the mission or the vision of that organisation. But 300 00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:23.180 equity then is, okay, how do I take all of these people with 301 00:19:23.180 --> 00:19:26.460 all these different skills, capabilities, identities, 302 00:19:26.780 --> 00:19:30.470 backgrounds, life experiences, how do I take all of these 303 00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:34.230 people with all these differences and get them to this collective 304 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:38.190 purpose? Well, you do that through acts of equity. You meet people 305 00:19:38.190 --> 00:19:42.110 where they are, understand all of those differences that are 306 00:19:42.110 --> 00:19:45.710 embodied in that person. What are some of the obstacles and barriers that get in 307 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:49.470 the way from them being able to aspire to whatever it is that they 308 00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:53.270 aspire to get to. And then once you understand that, then you 309 00:19:53.270 --> 00:19:57.000 build the steps to get them to that collective purpose. 310 00:19:57.080 --> 00:20:01.080 And some of those steps are going to be such that they're going to 311 00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:05.080 benefit 80% of the people. And then some of those steps have to be sort 312 00:20:05.080 --> 00:20:08.760 of tailored a bit so you can meet a person where they are and get 313 00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:12.040 them to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how I 314 00:20:12.120 --> 00:20:16.040 pragmatically try to explain diversity, equity, inclusion. It's 315 00:20:16.040 --> 00:20:19.640 not about preferential treatment for one group over another. 316 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.550 It's simply about giving people what it is they need to have 317 00:20:23.550 --> 00:20:27.464 access to opportunities. And that's where the, the, 318 00:20:27.464 --> 00:20:31.269 the rub gets. Because if one person's getting something and 319 00:20:31.269 --> 00:20:34.998 another person's not getting it, then it's like, oh, okay, 320 00:20:34.998 --> 00:20:38.726 you're getting something and I'm not. And it's, it's in the 321 00:20:38.726 --> 00:20:42.607 spirit of getting to this access and these opportunities and 322 00:20:42.607 --> 00:20:46.410 everybody doesn't come from the same place. And so you got to 323 00:20:46.410 --> 00:20:50.213 look at people individually as individuals and help them to 324 00:20:50.213 --> 00:20:54.169 get to where it is that, that, that they, they want to get to. And 325 00:20:54.169 --> 00:20:57.899 I think that's, you know, that's one thing and then another 326 00:20:57.899 --> 00:21:01.628 Thing, Joanne, is when, when people say, you know, DEI, the 327 00:21:01.628 --> 00:21:05.359 first thing that's going through their head is that you're 328 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:09.315 lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that 329 00:21:09.315 --> 00:21:13.043 that person is gone into. You know, I always, I used to get in 330 00:21:13.043 --> 00:21:16.466 conversations if I'm sitting in a room and there's the 331 00:21:16.466 --> 00:21:19.966 recruiter and then there's the hiring manager, and the 332 00:21:19.966 --> 00:21:23.848 recruiter would inevitably say something like, well, I want 333 00:21:23.848 --> 00:21:27.804 to make sure that you have a qual. A diverse candidate slate. So 334 00:21:27.804 --> 00:21:31.684 I'm bringing you candidates from all different walks of life 335 00:21:31.684 --> 00:21:35.530 to choose from for your role. And then the hiring manager might say 336 00:21:35.530 --> 00:21:38.890 something like, well, I want to make sure that they're, you know, they're qualified for 337 00:21:38.890 --> 00:21:42.610 the role. And I would politely stop the conversation there and 338 00:21:42.610 --> 00:21:46.290 say to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to say 339 00:21:46.290 --> 00:21:50.130 that? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringing 340 00:21:50.130 --> 00:21:53.930 you a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life, 341 00:21:53.930 --> 00:21:57.770 all different identities, et cetera. And they would, you know, him and haw 342 00:21:57.770 --> 00:22:01.530 and sort of not really answer the question. And I said, 343 00:22:01.530 --> 00:22:05.490 because, first of all, would you. After you sat. Because, you know, usually this is 344 00:22:05.490 --> 00:22:09.050 halfway through the meeting. It's like after you sat through this meeting and you've given 345 00:22:09.130 --> 00:22:13.070 the recruiter the skills, the capabilities, the years of 346 00:22:13.070 --> 00:22:17.070 experience, the type of capabilities and competencies that you need that they need 347 00:22:17.070 --> 00:22:20.910 to have years of experience that they need to have for the role, we've had 348 00:22:20.910 --> 00:22:24.910 this, this conversation. And then you say, well, I want to make 349 00:22:24.910 --> 00:22:28.629 sure that the person's qualified after they said that. And so your, 350 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:32.550 your assumption and your bias is because they said they wanted, 351 00:22:32.550 --> 00:22:36.230 they're going to bring in diverse candidates that they're, they're inferior 352 00:22:36.550 --> 00:22:40.400 and they're. But they're or not qualified for the role that you have. 353 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.520 That's an insult to the recruiter because their job is to 354 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:47.800 bring you candidates for your role that meet the 355 00:22:47.800 --> 00:22:51.640 qualifications that you've outlined in your conversation. But the 356 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.600 thing that you don't realise is those skills, those capabilities, 357 00:22:55.760 --> 00:22:59.680 those experiences, they can be embodied in 358 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.650 all kinds of different identities. And a lot 359 00:23:03.650 --> 00:23:07.330 of times, depending on the, the, the hiring manager, I'll say, well, close your 360 00:23:07.330 --> 00:23:11.290 eyes. And I want you to envision the perfect candidate for your role. 361 00:23:11.290 --> 00:23:14.970 What, what do they look like? And they, and they stop. Because then 362 00:23:15.290 --> 00:23:19.090 it's like, okay, well, they're picturing this white male, 40 to 60 years 363 00:23:19.090 --> 00:23:22.930 old, and it's like that's when it starts to dawn on them 364 00:23:22.930 --> 00:23:26.410 that, okay, okay, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, Celeste. And 365 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:30.250 it's like you need to understand that, you know, number one, you're insulting 366 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:33.210 the recruiter. You're trying to say that they don't know how to do their job. 367 00:23:33.790 --> 00:23:37.630 Number two, the skills and capabilities and experiences that you identified. 368 00:23:37.950 --> 00:23:41.950 Look. Can be embodied in people that have all different types of identities. 369 00:23:42.110 --> 00:23:46.110 And three, the perfect person doesn't necessarily look the way you 370 00:23:46.110 --> 00:23:50.030 do. And having that conversation with them really helps. It's a teaching 371 00:23:50.030 --> 00:23:53.470 moment, it's a learning moment. But. But it's necessary because 372 00:23:53.790 --> 00:23:57.390 otherwise they'll continue doing that in other 373 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:01.110 roles that they have. And then other people are watching them too, you know, maybe 374 00:24:01.110 --> 00:24:04.730 watching them within earshot of the whole. The whole. I hear that all the time. 375 00:24:04.730 --> 00:24:08.490 This is belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second best 376 00:24:08.490 --> 00:24:12.450 because you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent because 377 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:16.330 they're diverse. Yes. And that is exactly what you're describing 378 00:24:16.330 --> 00:24:20.050 there. And there's this almost like this. If it wasn't for this diversity hiring, the 379 00:24:20.050 --> 00:24:24.050 white guy would get it. Now we're having to say, Hank, why can't the white 380 00:24:24.050 --> 00:24:27.770 guy have it? He must be the best person for the job. This incumbency still 381 00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:31.880 plays out in many, many organisations. And what you're describing there, and you're 382 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:34.880 right, it's how do we get this across and how do we. How do we 383 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.760 get people to see past those default demographics and say. 384 00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:42.480 Because often when you're developing the job spec and doing your recruitment 385 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.440 marketing, as you say, you've got this avatar of the perfect candidate in your head, 386 00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:50.800 and that's often based on the demographic of the person who's thinking about it 387 00:24:50.800 --> 00:24:54.720 at the time. It's, how do we reevaluate the ideal 388 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.360 candidate where we're valuing some of those lived experience 389 00:24:58.520 --> 00:25:02.420 traits and that you maybe don't get with another characteristic. And you 390 00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:06.140 almost like saying, well, actually, if we're doing some balanced metrics here, empathy, 391 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:09.980 compassion, lived, experienceable to communities, whatever it may be, 392 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:14.140 is actually more important than pure technical skill, because 393 00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:16.580 actually, I need some personality in there as well. So we've got to try and 394 00:25:16.580 --> 00:25:20.220 rebalance the job spec, haven't we? Yes. Yeah. And you know, the 395 00:25:20.300 --> 00:25:24.140 example that I like to use is we've all seen that illustration 396 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:28.140 by Deloitte where there's three individuals and they're all. In 397 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:31.980 the first illustration, three individuals and they're all standing on one rock 398 00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:35.260 and they're. They're in front of the fence the person on the right 399 00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:39.060 cannot see over the fence with the one rock. The person in the middle can 400 00:25:39.060 --> 00:25:42.820 barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the 401 00:25:42.820 --> 00:25:46.820