Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold
Joanne Lockwood: conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration
Joanne Lockwood: into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal
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Joanne Lockwood: your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the
Joanne Lockwood: spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 212 with the title
Joanne Lockwood: Equity by Design. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: Celeste Warren. Celeste is a diversity, equity and
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion strategist, an author, speaker and the founder
Joanne Lockwood: of Celeste Warren Consulting, with over three decades of experience
Joanne Lockwood: helping organisations embed equity and build inclusive cultures
Joanne Lockwood: that drive meaningful and sustainable outcomes. When I asked Celeste to
Joanne Lockwood: describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to connect heart
Joanne Lockwood: and and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: into clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Celeste, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for
Celeste Warren: the invitation. I'm glad to be here, absolute pleasure. We're having a quick chit
Joanne Lockwood: chat earlier in the. In the green room. And whereabouts in the world are you
Joanne Lockwood: now? I am in, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's about two and a half
Celeste Warren: hours from New York City and on the east coast of the United States
Celeste Warren: and it is absolutely freezing here. We've had a very, very cold
Celeste Warren: snap that is a little bit unusual for this part of the country but,
Celeste Warren: but we're hanging in there, trying to stay warm. But I'm originally from,
Celeste Warren: from Pennsylvania, the state of Pennsylvania, but western Pennsylvania,
Celeste Warren: which is a small steel mill town. And
Celeste Warren: my father was the first black teacher, black
Celeste Warren: principal in that area. And, and so, you know, my,
Celeste Warren: I guess we call it origin storey or backstory. I grew up in a
Celeste Warren: household. There were five kids, mom and dad, and as I said, my dad
Celeste Warren: was the first black teacher, first black principal in that area.
Celeste Warren: And every day that he would come home, my mom would say
Celeste Warren: at the dinner table, you know, hey honey, how was your day? And that would
Celeste Warren: start a conversation that really was ingrained
Celeste Warren: in me as a child. I all the way through my adult
Celeste Warren: journey and he would talk about the challenges that he faced being
Celeste Warren: the first black man, you know, in this area. And, you know, what he had
Celeste Warren: to go through, some of the obstacles, some of the barriers, and then he
Celeste Warren: didn't just sit there at the dinner table and
Celeste Warren: complain. He then would say, and here's what I did about it.
Celeste Warren: Because he wanted to teach us, his children, that the colour of
Celeste Warren: your skin, your gender, how you identify is. It may cause
Celeste Warren: you problems throughout life, challenges throughout life, but don't let
Celeste Warren: that stop you from being able to achieve whatever it is that you desire to
Celeste Warren: achieve. And that was sort of. I got a front row seat to
Celeste Warren: that my entire childhood and teenage
Celeste Warren: years. And that just was, if you can imagine, just ingrained
Celeste Warren: in me throughout my formative years. That's sort of
Celeste Warren: what's grounded me into the work that I am doing today.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow, that's a fascinating backstory in origin. It's.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I think you've had what
Joanne Lockwood: sounds like a really good foundational upbringing around some of the
Joanne Lockwood: good principles of what it is in the world. And I sometimes wonder whether
Joanne Lockwood: our modern generation are being brought up with that
Joanne Lockwood: level of resilience and robustness to be able to challenge and stand up.
Joanne Lockwood: And maybe it's our social media world, maybe it's the way we're bringing people
Joanne Lockwood: up now. We seem to be very quick to react and weaponize our particular
Joanne Lockwood: characteristic rather than actually say, I've got this now, how can I make.
Celeste Warren: Yeah, yeah, you know, well, we, you know, coming up for those of us that
Celeste Warren: are on that other side of 50, we didn't have social media, we
Celeste Warren: didn't have the Internet, we didn't have, you know, email, we didn't have the
Celeste Warren: technology that could connect people like they do today,
Celeste Warren: like my children do today. And also, too, is that sort
Celeste Warren: of, you know, you talked about that reaction, being able to, I mean, just
Celeste Warren: reacting to stuff immediately without sort of thinking about
Celeste Warren: it and that. And sometimes, you know, you get
Celeste Warren: that keyboard courage and you put stuff out there
Celeste Warren: without really filtering it and thinking through it. And I think growing up,
Celeste Warren: we had the opportunity to think things through,
Celeste Warren: at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think
Celeste Warren: about the consequences of your actions. And
Celeste Warren: that sort of just sort of just stayed with us. And we didn't have a
Celeste Warren: choice because there was nothing sort of quick in the moment
Celeste Warren: that from a technology standpoint that would, that would put
Celeste Warren: things out there across the globe, you know, like the Internet does
Celeste Warren: now. And like social media, you might react in the moment, but the only person
Celeste Warren: that would see it is people that are around four or five people, maybe that
Celeste Warren: are around you. So it was a very different time than it is right now.
Celeste Warren: You know, there's good and there's also, you know,
Celeste Warren: opportunities as well. But I just think that growing up the way
Celeste Warren: I did, when I did, where I did, with those circumstances,
Celeste Warren: really helped me from a foundational standpoint, because it
Celeste Warren: really taught me, okay, you are a black woman in the world
Celeste Warren: today, and there are going to be challenges, there are going to
Celeste Warren: be obstacles. You know, he didn't paint the world as rosy, you
Celeste Warren: know, but he also said, I don't ever want you to use that as an
Celeste Warren: excuse as to why you can't achieve throughout your life.
Celeste Warren: That's kind of the lesson that he. That he taught us by the
Celeste Warren: conversation that he would have at the dinner table. And I
Celeste Warren: thought that was really, really important. I remember one
Celeste Warren: story that he told me that just has always stuck with me. I was
Celeste Warren: in. I was home for college, and he was telling me a story about
Celeste Warren: how when he. After he got his master's degree in education and
Celeste Warren: he. He got his master's degree in English, and so he was hired at
Celeste Warren: the school, but they didn't hire him as an English teacher.
Celeste Warren: They hired him as a gym teacher in the gymnasium, and they
Celeste Warren: didn't have a gymnasium. That's the sad thing about it. And so
Celeste Warren: he had to teach the students in the parking lot of the school.
Celeste Warren: And so he's teaching the kids, you know, physical education
Celeste Warren: and all of that. And. And when he would be out there, the. The kids
Celeste Warren: that he was teaching, the parents of those children would come and park
Celeste Warren: their cars in the parking lot and watch him as he was teaching these kids,
Celeste Warren: and he's telling me the story. And I was kind of like getting angry, like,
Celeste Warren: well, what did they think you were going to do to their children? And he
Celeste Warren: said, well, I don't know. He said, you know, I was a black teacher. They.
Celeste Warren: They weren't used to black teachers. And so they. I said, did you get
Celeste Warren: angry? Did, like, what did you do? And he said, no, I didn't get angry.
Celeste Warren: I just taught the kids. I did my job. And then he said, you
Celeste Warren: know what happened? One by one, those cars went away till it
Celeste Warren: got to a point where no parents felt a need to come and park
Celeste Warren: their cars and watch me teach their kids. They. They then,
Celeste Warren: they finally built a gymnasium. And then eventually he
Celeste Warren: ended up an opening occurred in the English department and
Celeste Warren: he was able to teach English and then, you know, his career
Celeste Warren: throughout administration as well. That story kind of
Celeste Warren: stuck with me because he overcame the adversity of those
Celeste Warren: parents not trusting him to teach their kids by just doing
Celeste Warren: his job and doing it well until they eventually, probably
Celeste Warren: the kids probably went home and told their parents, like,
Celeste Warren: why are you coming and parking there and watching, you
Celeste Warren: know, Mr. Phillips, that's, that's crazy. He's a nice
Celeste Warren: teacher, he's very good. And we're learning a lot from him
Celeste Warren: about physical education and how to stay healthy and
Celeste Warren: etcetera, etcetera. And so he had, in that process, he's
Celeste Warren: built the trust of those students and then ultimately built
Celeste Warren: the trust of the parents as well. And that story has stuck
Celeste Warren: with me for decades. And it's been a lesson around how I go
Celeste Warren: about doing what I do and have done throughout my career.
Joanne Lockwood: In a way, that's building your own affinity bias, isn't it? Because if we
Joanne Lockwood: don't know people, they're in and out group, we don't trust them, we don't
Joanne Lockwood: want to communicate with them, we don't engage with them, we don't value
Joanne Lockwood: them. But as soon as you start to become comfortable and know someone's
Joanne Lockwood: story, no one's capability, then they become part of your in group and
Joanne Lockwood: then you can start to trust and engage. It sounds like that's what
Joanne Lockwood: happened in that scenario where at first this person was an Other.
Joanne Lockwood: They're on the outside, there's no trust. And it took that pattern of this
Joanne Lockwood: person seems to be, okay, I'll trust them, you trust them, we're all
Joanne Lockwood: trusting them. No, there's no story here, we can move on. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: building that affinity bias, if you like, proactively to bring that
Joanne Lockwood: person into your circle of trust, isn't it? That's exactly it. And
Celeste Warren: he didn't do anything differently. He didn't, you know, because I can, you know,
Celeste Warren: you can imagine someone with a different temperament might have walked up
Celeste Warren: to those parents in the car and banged on the window. What are you doing?
Celeste Warren: And why are you watching me? And that, that definitely was not the
Celeste Warren: temperament of my dad, but he just did his job
Celeste Warren: and, and instilled trust and with, with everyone.
Celeste Warren: And you're exact, you're exactly right to the point when he passed away
Celeste Warren: in 20, about. Well, it's been close to eight
Celeste Warren: years now. When he passed away, they lined the streets
Celeste Warren: when we were going from the, the church to the cemetery.
Celeste Warren: They Lined the streets, the students lined the streets in front of the
Celeste Warren: school to say goodbye to him. And he had been retired from the school system
Celeste Warren: for many, many years at that point. And they actually
Celeste Warren: named, they renamed the elementary school after him.
Celeste Warren: And so, yeah, and so it's, it's, you know, when you talk about
Celeste Warren: legacy, when you talk about that, that the characteristics and
Celeste Warren: the behaviours and the mindset of someone who, in his
Celeste Warren: own way, he was bringing about change, he was bringing
Celeste Warren: about societal change, organisational change throughout his career,
Celeste Warren: because he was paving the way for others to be able to come in after
Celeste Warren: him and do what he did in that. In that school district and
Celeste Warren: in, in the community as well. I'm just trying to phrase this into, into
Joanne Lockwood: the thinking that it seems such a.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a burden on people
Joanne Lockwood: who are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds. However you want to
Joanne Lockwood: describe individuals, it's incumbent upon them to behave in a way
Joanne Lockwood: that makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get the
Joanne Lockwood: change acted. Whereas if you were from a majority
Joanne Lockwood: background, you would just be you and not have to think about all this, not
Joanne Lockwood: carry the weight of responsibility or whiteness on your shoulders. You just
Joanne Lockwood: are. Whereas as soon as you've got a characteristic, you then represent.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's a real burden that minority people face. Is it? Is it? Oh, yeah,
Celeste Warren: it was hugely that way for decades, well,
Celeste Warren: probably centuries, but. But it was very much that was sort
Celeste Warren: of the weight that we carried. And, you know, you fill in the blank of
Celeste Warren: marginalised group, whatever identity that. That was the weight. I
Celeste Warren: think now what we're trying to teach
Celeste Warren: individuals is be you don't try to carry that
Celeste Warren: weight because that, that's unfair. You know, one of the things that I
Celeste Warren: know, my father knew, my grandfather knew and grandmother and mother
Celeste Warren: was that was unfair for us to have to carry that weight
Celeste Warren: throughout our lives. You know, life is. Can be hard enough
Celeste Warren: without having to have to carry that weight of. You have to
Celeste Warren: make sure you're doing, especially in this day and age, at least in the United
Celeste Warren: States, Black women are really, you know, it's just very
Celeste Warren: challenging right now with the, the job situation
Celeste Warren: being what it is. Black women are the ones that are losing the
Celeste Warren: most as far as jobs in the United States. And there's
Celeste Warren: that, there's that tightrope
Celeste Warren: that you're walking regardless of your identity, if you're in a
Celeste Warren: minority group. But it's tightrope of, well, I want
Celeste Warren: to be respected for who I am. I can't
Celeste Warren: act in a certain way because Then I will fall into
Celeste Warren: the stereotype of that they have for people who
Celeste Warren: identify as I do. And so I need to make sure I'm, like, walking this
Celeste Warren: thin line. And it's very exhausting. It's so exhausting.
Celeste Warren: And so, you know, taking the time to say, this
Celeste Warren: is me, this is who I am, and, you know, not in a way
Celeste Warren: that's disrespectful to yourself or to others, but just
Celeste Warren: basically saying, this is what I bring to the table. This is the value that
Celeste Warren: I bring. This is who I am. And I bring a value
Celeste Warren: that will benefit, whether it be an organisation or a team or whatever
Celeste Warren: the entity is. But I bring a value because
Celeste Warren: of who I am. And we need to kind of flip the switch a bit.
Celeste Warren: I have a T shirt that I just got. I saw it. Where did I
Celeste Warren: see it? I think I saw it on Instagram and I was like, I got
Celeste Warren: to have that. And it has be you. The world will adjust.
Celeste Warren: And I thought, oh, how nice is that? That? And it's just. That's the
Celeste Warren: lesson that I like to teach young, young people when I talk to students
Celeste Warren: at universities and my own children who are, you know, in their
Celeste Warren: 20s, is be you. Because if you try to
Celeste Warren: be somebody else, especially in an organisation, you know, you
Celeste Warren: come to a company and you. You sort of act like
Celeste Warren: you think they want you to act, that is
Celeste Warren: exhausting. You can't do that for a sustained period of time. It's just not sustainable.
Celeste Warren: And so make sure that you are yourself because you bring
Celeste Warren: a value to whatever entity, organisation, group, team that you're.
Celeste Warren: That you're entering in. And if you didn't, then they wouldn't have brought you
Celeste Warren: in. And so make sure that you always understand that and hold your head up
Celeste Warren: high and contribute in the best way that you know how to contribute.
Joanne Lockwood: You're so right about this being yourself. And I think we talk a
Joanne Lockwood: lot these days about authenticity, don't we? The. The fact that there's a fine line
Joanne Lockwood: between being authentic and being unfiltered, isn't there? You see,
Joanne Lockwood: you need to be accountable for your authenticity as well. Oh,
Celeste Warren: absolutely. You know, I. When I talk with folks, I was 10
Celeste Warren: years as a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer with a Fortune 50 company,
Celeste Warren: and one of the things that I would get challenged sometimes
Celeste Warren: by folks is like, well, I want to be my true self. I want to
Celeste Warren: be my authentic self. And I said, it's,
Celeste Warren: yes, we want you to be your authentic self because you bring value
Celeste Warren: to the organisation, but understand that you are in an
Celeste Warren: organisation. And that organisation, the foundations of that
Celeste Warren: organisation, is treating people with dignity and respect. And if the
Celeste Warren: true you isn't someone who can treat people with dignity and
Celeste Warren: respect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else,
Celeste Warren: because that's not foundationally the culture that we, that we
Celeste Warren: nurture within the organisation. And so there's a difference between,
Celeste Warren: I like to say there's a difference between business casual
Celeste Warren: wear and come as you are. And business casual
Celeste Warren: is, you know, still, still
Celeste Warren: professional, but it, but it's, it's, it's
Celeste Warren: comfortable for you. So you can think, you know, in the workplace and
Celeste Warren: be productive, but come as you are. As you walk out of bed and
Celeste Warren: you come work with flip flops and shorts on. That's not the same thing. And
Celeste Warren: so it's exactly what you said about the filter. You have a
Celeste Warren: responsibility and accountability to, yes, speak your
Celeste Warren: mind, but do it in a way that you still maintain
Celeste Warren: dignity and respect of your colleagues. One of the challenges I see in the
Joanne Lockwood: world at the moment is the DEI pushback or the DEI must die type type
Joanne Lockwood: sort of rhetoric that's out there, that what seems to be happening is
Joanne Lockwood: the people who are the majority, the incumbent, the monoculture,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it may be, are now saying, well, hang on a minute, people
Joanne Lockwood: keep telling me I can't do this, I can't behave that way, I've got to
Joanne Lockwood: behave in a certain way and why can't I be authentic? Why can't I be
Joanne Lockwood: myself? Why can't I have my views? Everybody I know has similar views
Joanne Lockwood: to me. I'm not in a minority. And what we, what we seem to be
Joanne Lockwood: doing here is that in the situation where we're almost competing
Joanne Lockwood: with whose views are palatable in our organisations, in society,
Joanne Lockwood: how do we rationalise those two perspectives? Where does the power
Joanne Lockwood: and the culture lie there? Well, I think
Celeste Warren: that, first of all, people have different perspectives and
Celeste Warren: different views. That's the world that we live in and we've always lived in
Celeste Warren: that world. Everybody has different perspectives, different ideas, different
Celeste Warren: beliefs, and that's fine. But you have to be able
Celeste Warren: to have productive conversations about those different
Celeste Warren: perspectives in a way that respects other
Celeste Warren: people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other
Celeste Warren: people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a
Celeste Warren: way that doesn't say that because you believe that
Celeste Warren: or you feel that you're less than and you don't count
Celeste Warren: and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything.
Celeste Warren: And that's where I think sometimes people Sort of lose perspective
Celeste Warren: because you and I can have a great discussion about something
Celeste Warren: and we can decide, agree to disagree and walk away
Celeste Warren: and still be colleagues and associates. And that's the piece that I think
Celeste Warren: that we've forgotten. And another thing too is, you know, with diversity,
Celeste Warren: equity, inclusion, they just, they have looked at this
Celeste Warren: as something that it isn't. So diversity is simply
Celeste Warren: differences in people. Those you can see and those you can't see.
Celeste Warren: Organisations are not run by robots, most of them, but
Celeste Warren: robots were created by humans. So the human element
Celeste Warren: is in every organisation, every ecosystem. And so that's
Celeste Warren: diversity. The differences in all those, in all those people.
Celeste Warren: Inclusion is, you have to surround them with this
Celeste Warren: culture that all of those differences
Celeste Warren: can be leveraged in a way that gets you to this
Celeste Warren: collective purpose. And if we were talking about an organisation, that collective
Celeste Warren: purpose would be the mission or the vision of that organisation. But
Celeste Warren: equity then is, okay, how do I take all of these people with
Celeste Warren: all these different skills, capabilities, identities,
Celeste Warren: backgrounds, life experiences, how do I take all of these
Celeste Warren: people with all these differences and get them to this collective
Celeste Warren: purpose? Well, you do that through acts of equity. You meet people
Celeste Warren: where they are, understand all of those differences that are
Celeste Warren: embodied in that person. What are some of the obstacles and barriers that get in
Celeste Warren: the way from them being able to aspire to whatever it is that they
Celeste Warren: aspire to get to. And then once you understand that, then you
Celeste Warren: build the steps to get them to that collective purpose.
Celeste Warren: And some of those steps are going to be such that they're going to
Celeste Warren: benefit 80% of the people. And then some of those steps have to be sort
Celeste Warren: of tailored a bit so you can meet a person where they are and get
Celeste Warren: them to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how I
Celeste Warren: pragmatically try to explain diversity, equity, inclusion. It's
Celeste Warren: not about preferential treatment for one group over another.
Celeste Warren: It's simply about giving people what it is they need to have
Celeste Warren: access to opportunities. And that's where the, the,
Celeste Warren: the rub gets. Because if one person's getting something and
Celeste Warren: another person's not getting it, then it's like, oh, okay,
Celeste Warren: you're getting something and I'm not. And it's, it's in the
Celeste Warren: spirit of getting to this access and these opportunities and
Celeste Warren: everybody doesn't come from the same place. And so you got to
Celeste Warren: look at people individually as individuals and help them to
Celeste Warren: get to where it is that, that, that they, they want to get to. And
Celeste Warren: I think that's, you know, that's one thing and then another
Celeste Warren: Thing, Joanne, is when, when people say, you know, DEI, the
Celeste Warren: first thing that's going through their head is that you're
Celeste Warren: lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that
Celeste Warren: that person is gone into. You know, I always, I used to get in
Celeste Warren: conversations if I'm sitting in a room and there's the
Celeste Warren: recruiter and then there's the hiring manager, and the
Celeste Warren: recruiter would inevitably say something like, well, I want
Celeste Warren: to make sure that you have a qual. A diverse candidate slate. So
Celeste Warren: I'm bringing you candidates from all different walks of life
Celeste Warren: to choose from for your role. And then the hiring manager might say
Celeste Warren: something like, well, I want to make sure that they're, you know, they're qualified for
Celeste Warren: the role. And I would politely stop the conversation there and
Celeste Warren: say to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to say
Celeste Warren: that? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringing
Celeste Warren: you a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life,
Celeste Warren: all different identities, et cetera. And they would, you know, him and haw
Celeste Warren: and sort of not really answer the question. And I said,
Celeste Warren: because, first of all, would you. After you sat. Because, you know, usually this is
Celeste Warren: halfway through the meeting. It's like after you sat through this meeting and you've given
Celeste Warren: the recruiter the skills, the capabilities, the years of
Celeste Warren: experience, the type of capabilities and competencies that you need that they need
Celeste Warren: to have years of experience that they need to have for the role, we've had
Celeste Warren: this, this conversation. And then you say, well, I want to make
Celeste Warren: sure that the person's qualified after they said that. And so your,
Celeste Warren: your assumption and your bias is because they said they wanted,
Celeste Warren: they're going to bring in diverse candidates that they're, they're inferior
Celeste Warren: and they're. But they're or not qualified for the role that you have.
Celeste Warren: That's an insult to the recruiter because their job is to
Celeste Warren: bring you candidates for your role that meet the
Celeste Warren: qualifications that you've outlined in your conversation. But the
Celeste Warren: thing that you don't realise is those skills, those capabilities,
Celeste Warren: those experiences, they can be embodied in
Celeste Warren: all kinds of different identities. And a lot
Celeste Warren: of times, depending on the, the, the hiring manager, I'll say, well, close your
Celeste Warren: eyes. And I want you to envision the perfect candidate for your role.
Celeste Warren: What, what do they look like? And they, and they stop. Because then
Celeste Warren: it's like, okay, well, they're picturing this white male, 40 to 60 years
Celeste Warren: old, and it's like that's when it starts to dawn on them
Celeste Warren: that, okay, okay, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, Celeste. And
Celeste Warren: it's like you need to understand that, you know, number one, you're insulting
Celeste Warren: the recruiter. You're trying to say that they don't know how to do their job.
Celeste Warren: Number two, the skills and capabilities and experiences that you identified.
Celeste Warren: Look. Can be embodied in people that have all different types of identities.
Celeste Warren: And three, the perfect person doesn't necessarily look the way you
Celeste Warren: do. And having that conversation with them really helps. It's a teaching
Celeste Warren: moment, it's a learning moment. But. But it's necessary because
Celeste Warren: otherwise they'll continue doing that in other
Celeste Warren: roles that they have. And then other people are watching them too, you know, maybe
Celeste Warren: watching them within earshot of the whole. The whole. I hear that all the time.
Joanne Lockwood: This is belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second best
Joanne Lockwood: because you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent because
Joanne Lockwood: they're diverse. Yes. And that is exactly what you're describing
Joanne Lockwood: there. And there's this almost like this. If it wasn't for this diversity hiring, the
Joanne Lockwood: white guy would get it. Now we're having to say, Hank, why can't the white
Joanne Lockwood: guy have it? He must be the best person for the job. This incumbency still
Joanne Lockwood: plays out in many, many organisations. And what you're describing there, and you're
Joanne Lockwood: right, it's how do we get this across and how do we. How do we
Joanne Lockwood: get people to see past those default demographics and say.
Joanne Lockwood: Because often when you're developing the job spec and doing your recruitment
Joanne Lockwood: marketing, as you say, you've got this avatar of the perfect candidate in your head,
Joanne Lockwood: and that's often based on the demographic of the person who's thinking about it
Joanne Lockwood: at the time. It's, how do we reevaluate the ideal
Joanne Lockwood: candidate where we're valuing some of those lived experience
Joanne Lockwood: traits and that you maybe don't get with another characteristic. And you
Joanne Lockwood: almost like saying, well, actually, if we're doing some balanced metrics here, empathy,
Joanne Lockwood: compassion, lived, experienceable to communities, whatever it may be,
Joanne Lockwood: is actually more important than pure technical skill, because
Joanne Lockwood: actually, I need some personality in there as well. So we've got to try and
Joanne Lockwood: rebalance the job spec, haven't we? Yes. Yeah. And you know, the
Celeste Warren: example that I like to use is we've all seen that illustration
Celeste Warren: by Deloitte where there's three individuals and they're all. In
Celeste Warren: the first illustration, three individuals and they're all standing on one rock
Celeste Warren: and they're. They're in front of the fence the person on the right
Celeste Warren: cannot see over the fence with the one rock. The person in the middle can
Celeste Warren: barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the
Celeste Warren: fence. Then you go, and they all have one rock. So hey, everything
Celeste Warren: is good, right? But still the two people to the right
Celeste Warren: can't see over the fence. And so then you get to the second illustration. The
Celeste Warren: person on the right has been given two additional rocks, the person in the middle
Celeste Warren: has been given one additional rock, and the person on the left still has the
Celeste Warren: one rock because they were still able to see over the fence. Those rocks in
Celeste Warren: my analogy that I use with that illustration, those rocks are the
Celeste Warren: acts of equity that I was talking about to give them opportunity to be
Celeste Warren: able to have the same access that the person has on their left. And the
Celeste Warren: fence in my analogy are all of those, I call them the isms,
Celeste Warren: those things that didn't crop up overnight. And it's going to take
Celeste Warren: longer term strategy to sort of pull them apart from
Celeste Warren: institutions, from organisations, from society like isms,
Celeste Warren: like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, et cetera.
Celeste Warren: And so we have to be doing both in order to, to get to that
Celeste Warren: third illustration where the rocks are gone and the fence is gone. But what is
Celeste Warren: happening, the acts of equity are causing disruption
Celeste Warren: because the person who was standing on one rock in the first illustration and
Celeste Warren: still standing on one rock in the second, but they're looking to their right and
Celeste Warren: they're saying, well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks
Celeste Warren: and I still have one. That's not fair, that's not equitable. And the challenge is
Celeste Warren: because they don't see the fence that's in front of them because they've always been
Celeste Warren: able to see over it. They don't know how that fence manifests
Celeste Warren: itself and behaviours to his colleagues on the right. They
Celeste Warren: don't know about marginalisation, they don't know about bias,
Celeste Warren: they don't know about the obstacles and the barriers that get in the way
Celeste Warren: that are embedded into that, that the isms in that fence
Celeste Warren: and so those of us that are doing the work of diversity,
Celeste Warren: equity, inclusion, creating more inclusive cultures and belonging,
Celeste Warren: we have to put the acts of equity in place, put the rocks in place.
Celeste Warren: So, so we can still still have. Those are sort of the short term
Celeste Warren: midterm strategies, we have to tear the fence down, that's the
Celeste Warren: longer term strategy. And then we also have to have a
Celeste Warren: conversation with that person standing on one rock and say, okay, here's
Celeste Warren: some things that you need to Understand, you've always been able to see over that
Celeste Warren: fence. That fence is there. And here's how it manifests itself in
Celeste Warren: behaviour. Give them things to read and articles to read or books to
Celeste Warren: read or training to take or, you know, give them thing resources to
Celeste Warren: educate themselves and then have a conversation with them and help
Celeste Warren: them to understand how that fence, first of all, that's there,
Celeste Warren: second of all, they have always been able to see over it for whatever
Celeste Warren: number of reasons. And then third, how. What it manifests itself to
Celeste Warren: his colleagues on the right and why it's necessary for those acts of
Celeste Warren: equity while we're tearing down the fence. And then lastly, we
Celeste Warren: don't want you to just intellectualize it, we want you to be active
Celeste Warren: allies. We want you to get in the boat, we want you to grab an
Celeste Warren: oar and we want you to row with us and help us to get up
Celeste Warren: the river so we can get to that third illustration where the rocks
Celeste Warren: are not needed, the fence is torn down and then everybody can see the
Celeste Warren: beautiful mountains and even that person that could see over the
Celeste Warren: fence the whole time with a fence torn down, their aperture has been
Celeste Warren: widened and broadened because now they're able to see not just the
Celeste Warren: top, but they're able to see other things that maybe that fence was
Celeste Warren: obstructing and they didn't even realise it. And that's why, you
Celeste Warren: know, I say everybody wins when we get it right. Equity. You know, right
Celeste Warren: now we're at a stage where we're putting the rocks of equity in place
Celeste Warren: and we're trying to tear down the fence and that individual.
Celeste Warren: Those conversations still need to be had with the individual standing on the one
Celeste Warren: rock, as painful as they can be sometimes. But we're not
Celeste Warren: going to get to that third illustration if we're not all working together.
Celeste Warren: It's. It's just going to. It's going to be very, very difficult. Yeah. Was it
Joanne Lockwood: JFK said a rising tide floats all boats equally or whatever. So what we're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to do here is we're not trying to float your boat higher or lower than
Joanne Lockwood: my boat. We're just trying to raise the tide so we're all floating and we're
Joanne Lockwood: all off the rock, if you like. Yeah. And that's the
Celeste Warren: reason why, you know, the myth about preferential treatment, because
Celeste Warren: the individual, all they see is the rocks. The fact that they have three, they
Celeste Warren: have two and they only. They only have one and they don't see the fence,
Celeste Warren: they don't see the larger ecosystem of what's happening. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: it's all very well and I just play with your analogy and your, your,
Joanne Lockwood: your model here. So we've achieved justice, which is the final box.
Joanne Lockwood: There's no fence, we don't need the rocks. We can all see, we can all,
Joanne Lockwood: we can all participate fairly neatly in society. But part of the
Joanne Lockwood: challenge at that point there is the internalisation, the
Joanne Lockwood: ingrained mindset of somebody who has been brought up in a marginalised community,
Joanne Lockwood: experienced marginalisation, discrimination themselves. How do we re.
Joanne Lockwood: Engage them? Because I think sometimes we look at the mindset of people. Whereas
Joanne Lockwood: people who are used to succeeding and having everything their own way
Joanne Lockwood: have a certain mindset. But people who are used to being knocked back go
Joanne Lockwood: into situations where less belief, less confidence, less support
Joanne Lockwood: network, all these things. So it's all very well removing some of the barriers, but
Joanne Lockwood: we've also got to help enable people. There's even more equity. We've got
Joanne Lockwood: to give them, give them self belief, isn't it? Oh yeah, there,
Celeste Warren: there's a, it's about mindset
Celeste Warren: shift, a shift in mindset shift in behaviours. And you
Celeste Warren: talk about a tightrope having conversations with
Celeste Warren: individuals that it, so that individual that was standing on one rock when
Celeste Warren: they grew up, just like I grew up around the table with what my
Celeste Warren: conversation with my parents, they grew up around the table with
Celeste Warren: certain conversations. And so you're telling them that, okay,
Celeste Warren: if we want, want an inclusive society, you have to
Celeste Warren: forget about or rewire what mom and dad and Auntie
Celeste Warren: and Granddad told you coming up. That's not an easy conversation by
Celeste Warren: any means, but it's one that's necessary in order
Celeste Warren: for us to get to that third illustration. And, and,
Celeste Warren: and on the, on the other side too, to your point,
Celeste Warren: of the marginalised group that has always been
Celeste Warren: those behaviours have manifested to them of the obstacles and the barriers getting
Celeste Warren: in their way and that's the way their life has been and their journey has
Celeste Warren: been. Unfortunately, it's the same thing as, you know, domestic violence
Celeste Warren: and the woman who, her husband's been beating her for years.
Celeste Warren: And then one day he says, well, I'm not going to do it anymore. And
Celeste Warren: all of a sudden she's just supposed to flip and be this different person
Celeste Warren: when every single time he raises his hand she flinches. And
Celeste Warren: for years afterwards. So all of this mindset and
Celeste Warren: behaviour change needs to occur as well for everyone,
Celeste Warren: for us to really, truly benefit from that third illustration.
Celeste Warren: Because once we tear the fence down, once we, the rocks are, and we don't
Celeste Warren: need the rocks we simultaneously need to be working on ourselves.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So the people who needed the rocks, they need to believe
Joanne Lockwood: they don't need the rocks anymore. And that's half the battle as well. Trust. It's
Celeste Warren: all about trust. It's all about trust. And that's a hard
Celeste Warren: thing to overcome when there's been centuries and
Celeste Warren: centuries of behaviour that has been against you
Celeste Warren: and your. And your. Have you ever come across the story or the anecdote? I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know how true it is, but apparently someone did some research and they put
Joanne Lockwood: five monkeys in a cage with a ladder and some bananas at the top of
Joanne Lockwood: the ladder. And the monkeys used to climb the ladder, eat the bananas, and then
Joanne Lockwood: every day they put more bananas on the ladder. Then one day they started. Every
Joanne Lockwood: time a monkey climbed the cage, they started squirting the monkey who's
Joanne Lockwood: getting the banana with water. So the monkey learned, if I got the ladder, grab
Joanne Lockwood: the banana, I'm going to get wet. So it stopped doing it. Then the other
Joanne Lockwood: thing they started doing was if a monkey did go up the ladder, instead of
Joanne Lockwood: squirting the monkey who was up the ladder, they squirted the monkeys who
Joanne Lockwood: weren't on the ladder. So when the monkey came down, the monkeys at the bottom
Joanne Lockwood: who were being squirted then beat up the monkey. Oh, wow. The ladder
Joanne Lockwood: to reinforce it. And then as this experiment, they swapped
Joanne Lockwood: the monkeys out and put new monkeys in and the new
Joanne Lockwood: monkeys learned the behaviour of the. Of the group. Yeah. And eventually,
Joanne Lockwood: after a year, there was no monkeys in the cage who had ever been
Joanne Lockwood: squirted with water or ever had a problem. So they, they'd always attack a
Joanne Lockwood: monkey who went up the ladder to grab a banana, because that's what they did.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's kind of the belief system you end up reinforcing, as you say, for
Joanne Lockwood: generations and generations of oppression or marginalisation. This is the
Joanne Lockwood: way it is. I've internalised this. I can't succeed, I won't succeed.
Joanne Lockwood: You're not going to like me, you're going to reject me. This person's always going
Joanne Lockwood: to get the job, whereas the person who is in that incumbent never been
Joanne Lockwood: squirted with water. Getting bananas is going to be gung ho going,
Joanne Lockwood: I see no barriers. And that's often why they succeed more, because
Joanne Lockwood: they're not constrained by their history. Yeah, there's
Celeste Warren: a. There is. It is. All of this is not
Celeste Warren: going to be something that is going to happen like that.
Celeste Warren: And the cornerstone of trust is this
Celeste Warren: hard. It is hard for all the reasons that that we talked about the experiment
Celeste Warren: that you just talked about, all of it. You know, it's, it's sort of in
Celeste Warren: an organisation, you come into an organisation and someone
Celeste Warren: trained you. That person who's trained you has been with that
Celeste Warren: organisation for 20 years. The person who trained them 20 years prior to
Celeste Warren: that had been with the organisation for 20 years.
Celeste Warren: And, and they're thinking,
Celeste Warren: well, why do you, why do we do it that way? Because that's the way
Celeste Warren: that we've always done it and they're training them the same way when
Celeste Warren: that might be antiquated, an antiquated way of doing it. Especially
Celeste Warren: when you think about the technology that has evolved over 20 or
Celeste Warren: something years. And so, you know, that's, that's one of the,
Celeste Warren: it's a, it's another example of how
Celeste Warren: organisational culture becomes so ingrained. It's beyond the
Celeste Warren: HR policies and procedures and the rules
Celeste Warren: and the this and the that, but it's, it's the people
Celeste Warren: and how they behave with the unspoken rules and
Celeste Warren: the behaviours and it's so funny, but what I've seen from a generational
Celeste Warren: standpoint, what I've seen with young people this
Celeste Warren: generation Z and you know, to a degree with
Celeste Warren: Y too, as they were coming into the workforce, but they asked the question,
Celeste Warren: well, why do you do it like that? Well, why? That doesn't seem like, well,
Celeste Warren: do you know that you can download this app and that can be done in
Celeste Warren: two seconds? Right? So the reason why I have
Celeste Warren: hope, one of the reasons why I have hope is
Celeste Warren: as I look and I talk with this generation, this new generation,
Celeste Warren: they courage to be able to say and ask questions,
Celeste Warren: why? Why? Why? Like a five year old toddler, why? Well, why?
Celeste Warren: Well, why? Why? And then when you can't answer the question,
Celeste Warren: then you have to think to yourself, well, why do we do this?
Celeste Warren: And as, as the new generations come into the
Celeste Warren: workplaces, they have this perspective that is
Celeste Warren: so refreshing because they're not afraid to ask the question why, which
Celeste Warren: is, which is good because that helps us to sort of break
Celeste Warren: that cycle of
Celeste Warren: doing it, because that's the way that we've always done it and be able
Celeste Warren: to think about new. Because we're only going to survive if we,
Celeste Warren: if we nurture innovation and creativity, that's the only way that,
Celeste Warren: that societies survive and thrive. Innovation,
Celeste Warren: creativity. And if we stomp on that, then that's
Celeste Warren: going to be very, very problematic for our future. Any future, any
Celeste Warren: country, any organisation. You said earlier a statistic around
Joanne Lockwood: in the US and probably other parts of the World around, the number of
Joanne Lockwood: layoffs affecting black women are disproportionately higher.
Joanne Lockwood: What's the hypothesis around that? What's the why? You know, it can't just
Joanne Lockwood: be because they're black women. It must be a circumstance or
Joanne Lockwood: an inequity or something in the social constructs of
Joanne Lockwood: society that because they're black women, they're therefore more
Joanne Lockwood: likely. But it's not because. Just because they're black women, is it?
Celeste Warren: Yeah, you know, so data would say
Celeste Warren: that there's been a lot of layoffs in the United States, especially
Celeste Warren: in the federal government, in those type roles, which a
Celeste Warren: large percentage of folks that work in the federal government
Celeste Warren: are black women, women of colour in roles across
Celeste Warren: different industries. The roles that seem to be
Celeste Warren: being diminished are roles in. That are inhabited
Celeste Warren: and the incumbents are largely black women or women of
Celeste Warren: colour. So there's. The data would tell you that if you talk
Celeste Warren: with some of these black women, they will tell you
Celeste Warren: that also in some cases too, some are just
Celeste Warren: opting to, to just drop out because of the
Celeste Warren: kind of. What we were talking about earlier about that, that the feeling of,
Celeste Warren: you know, I. I feel marginalised. It's impacting my,
Celeste Warren: my psyche. It's impacting my health. It's not worth it. I'm just
Celeste Warren: gonna. I'm just gonna. I need to just stop and I need to leave
Celeste Warren: and do something else or leave this environment. So there's also
Celeste Warren: that aspect as well. Many the, the
Celeste Warren: articles and the things that I've read sort of talk about the data and
Celeste Warren: then they talk about how some of these women have been feeling that have opted
Celeste Warren: to, to. To just make a decision that this isn't the place for me and
Celeste Warren: I need to leave for the reasons I talked about. But one of the things.
Celeste Warren: So there's the. There's all of those things I think wrapped up together.
Celeste Warren: But one of these things, one of the things that I will tell you that
Celeste Warren: I believe is true is
Celeste Warren: what we're seeing with black women. It's like the canary in the coal mine,
Celeste Warren: because it's the tip of the iceberg. What you see happening to
Celeste Warren: black women is just a. For of a
Celeste Warren: foretaste of what's going to happen in the economy and
Celeste Warren: generally to everybody. And it's sort of, like I said, a canary in a coal
Celeste Warren: mine type type thinking. And I've seen articles, I've seen
Celeste Warren: articles and heard, you know, different news talk shows and things like that
Celeste Warren: where they talk about that and they talk about it from a historical
Celeste Warren: perspective, but that's saying that, you know, what happens to
Celeste Warren: the minorities in the country is sort of a pre
Celeste Warren: telling of the way the country's going to go and it'll be
Celeste Warren: happening to everybody. And we're starting to see, at least in the United
Celeste Warren: States, starting to see that in other countries as well. Because back
Celeste Warren: in
Celeste Warren: 2024-2024-2025-2024, there were
Celeste Warren: a lot, there was like overwhelmingly large amount of countries
Celeste Warren: that were having elections. I think it was like in the 80s
Celeste Warren: and for whatever reason it was just a large number in one year.
Celeste Warren: And there those, those elections, the outcomes of those elections,
Celeste Warren: there was a large percentage of them where they hired in government officials
Celeste Warren: that were more conservative. And so you see that, that there's this
Celeste Warren: pendulum that swings, right? And whenever there is a rise in
Celeste Warren: social activism like we saw in 2020, then all of a
Celeste Warren: sudden the pendulum starts swinging to conservatism.
Celeste Warren: And that's kind of what we, what we saw with all of the elections in
Celeste Warren: 2024, what we've seen in 2025 in many, many, many
Celeste Warren: countries. And so now in, you know, history says
Celeste Warren: that there's going to be a pendulum and it's going to swing back again too
Celeste Warren: in future years. So that it's just, it's just sort of this
Celeste Warren: historical anomaly that, that just happens
Celeste Warren: throughout the world. And so, you know, that's why I think that we
Celeste Warren: have to pay attention to what's happening to women of colour and
Celeste Warren: start saying, okay, how do we prevent this from happening
Celeste Warren: holistically, not just to them and what do we need to put in place to
Celeste Warren: help black women, but what do we need to put in place to help
Celeste Warren: overall as well? Because this is something that it's leading us down a
Celeste Warren: path that isn't good for this particular country. Who's next then?
Joanne Lockwood: Is it, is it more around the low paid workers? Is what we're
Joanne Lockwood: losing hospitality we're losing. She's a government workforce. And
Joanne Lockwood: the symptom is that here, that in this particular case black women, women
Joanne Lockwood: of colour have filled those vacancies and never progressed to higher
Joanne Lockwood: echelons or more skilled work. We're looking at it and AI
Joanne Lockwood: and all these kind of technologies here where traditionally that's
Joanne Lockwood: not where black women and women of colour have gravitated in their career
Joanne Lockwood: trajectory. Yeah, there's definitely.
Celeste Warren: That's absolutely true, Joanne. And whenever I'm talking with
Celeste Warren: especially university students and different groups, I always
Celeste Warren: tell folks from a career standpoint, understand your discipline
Celeste Warren: and what's needed not today, but five and Ten years from today, where
Celeste Warren: is your discipline, your industry going? What are some of the
Celeste Warren: changes that are going to be happening? And understand that and then
Celeste Warren: how does that translate to skills and capabilities that are needed
Celeste Warren: and you go after those skills and capabilities because you know,
Celeste Warren: think about it, there, there are jobs that exist today that five and
Celeste Warren: 10 years ago did not exist at all. You know, social media,
Joanne Lockwood: marketing, Uber driver, you know, they just didn't exist, did they?
Celeste Warren: Influencers. Influencers, yeah. YouTube influencers.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, they didn't exist. They just didn't exist. And so the world is just
Celeste Warren: changing and so you have to try to stay ahead of it and
Celeste Warren: that's really, really critical. And you're right. AI, Artificial Intelligence,
Celeste Warren: you know the coin coined the phrase is AI going to take
Celeste Warren: jobs? And it's like, no, it's not going to take jobs, all jobs it's
Celeste Warren: going to take. It's going to replace people who don't understand AI and how to
Celeste Warren: leverage it in their jobs. But you're absolutely
Celeste Warren: right, there are certain industries and certain disciplines that
Celeste Warren: people of colour, women of colour don't migrate to,
Celeste Warren: but that's not because they don't have the intelligence to be able
Celeste Warren: to migrate to them. There are a lot of different barriers in the
Celeste Warren: STEM fields that, that get in the way of people of
Celeste Warren: colour, especially women of colour being able to, to get STEM field, to get into
Celeste Warren: STEM field that start early in education. Yeah, I was going
Joanne Lockwood: to say the issue here is going back to someone who's, when they're five or
Joanne Lockwood: six years old or even back to before the parents conceived
Joanne Lockwood: them. Yes, to try and educate the parents on how to
Joanne Lockwood: inject aspiration into their future offspring and
Joanne Lockwood: how to nurture them to want to succeed and remove
Joanne Lockwood: those psychological self imposed barriers of limiting
Joanne Lockwood: mindset that many people grow up with. It's almost like we're going to start that
Joanne Lockwood: education process now for future parents to bring to their future
Joanne Lockwood: children. And in the, in the education systems the teachers, you know
Celeste Warren: that right, wrong or indifferent, they have their own biases. And when Sally
Celeste Warren: raises her hand versus Joe raising their hand to answer a question, you know, there
Celeste Warren: are all kinds of studies around early bias in early
Celeste Warren: education that starts in, you know, boys being encouraged
Celeste Warren: for math and girls being encouraged for other, you know, thing English or
Celeste Warren: whatever. There's all kinds of studies around that have been around for decades. But
Celeste Warren: it starts, you're absolutely right, it starts with the parents, it starts
Celeste Warren: with the teachers. It starts early, early on in the systems
Celeste Warren: to be able to rectify those gaps that you see,
Celeste Warren: in these different disciplines as adults, so
Celeste Warren: we use the. Phrase DEI is broken. We see the
Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric going on by our political leaders around
Joanne Lockwood: the world, not just in one particular country. How do we rebrand
Joanne Lockwood: dei, diversity, equity and inclusion, so that it's more understandable?
Joanne Lockwood: Because I think it's become kind of a toxic phrase, it's become kind of a
Joanne Lockwood: misunderstood, a misquoted motives have been misquoted and
Joanne Lockwood: misunderstood. How should we relaunch the essence of what
Joanne Lockwood: DEI is in a way that the people who only have one
Joanne Lockwood: rock can understand? Well, I am not a
Celeste Warren: proponent of rebranding it. I'm more of a
Celeste Warren: proponent of helping people to understand it in
Celeste Warren: a way that makes sense to them. And like I said, meeting them
Celeste Warren: where they are because, you know, the way that
Celeste Warren: I look, the way that I in this, again, this is the world according to
Celeste Warren: Celeste. But the way I look at it is
Celeste Warren: you are. If you're offended because I'm a black woman and you say to
Celeste Warren: me, well, I don't want to call you black woman,
Celeste Warren: can I call you something else? And my answer is no,
Celeste Warren: I'm a black woman, I'm proud of being a black woman. How I
Celeste Warren: identify. And no, you can't call me something else. Put another label
Celeste Warren: on me. You need to understand me for who I am and what I bring
Celeste Warren: to the table. And that's kind of how I feel about diversity,
Celeste Warren: equity and inclusion. I don't like using the acronym DEI
Celeste Warren: because it has been bastardised, the acronym. But when I say
Celeste Warren: the words diversity, when I say differences in people, when I
Celeste Warren: say the word inclusion and inclusive society, where
Celeste Warren: everyone feels a sense of belonging and feels valued for who
Celeste Warren: they are, however they identify. And when I use the word
Celeste Warren: equity, which basically is Management 101, Leadership 101,
Celeste Warren: Business 101, meeting people where they are understanding
Celeste Warren: those differences and then helping them to remove obstacles
Celeste Warren: and barriers that are getting in the way for them being able to
Celeste Warren: have access to opportunities that everybody is has a right to
Celeste Warren: have. When I explain it to them in those very simple,
Celeste Warren: pragmatic terms, then the light bulbs go off. And I think at
Celeste Warren: that point it helps people to understand what it is, what
Celeste Warren: diversity, equity, inclusion truly is. And so, you know, I
Celeste Warren: just think it's just confusing people and you try to call it
Celeste Warren: something else. Oh, and by the way,
Celeste Warren: this too shall pass. Because, you know, a lot of this is this
Celeste Warren: anti diversity equity inclusion rhetoric. A lot of it is, again,
Celeste Warren: it's part of that, that pendulum, if you will, that keeps swinging Back
Celeste Warren: and forth and I say, you know, maintain, help people understand,
Celeste Warren: help people to see the benefit in it. Help people to see that when we
Celeste Warren: do it right, everybody is going to win and it'll be be something that can
Celeste Warren: be done for everyone. Absolutely, Celeste, absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: You're right. And we shouldn't have to apologise and change the names of
Joanne Lockwood: things to make them more palatable to somebody else. We even have to over explain.
Joanne Lockwood: But you're right, we're in a world now where we've got
Joanne Lockwood: some challenges and DEI is as important
Joanne Lockwood: as it ever has been and will continue to be. We need to work on
Joanne Lockwood: that. So how could people get a hold of you? We've had a fantastic hour
Joanne Lockwood: and a bit together. I'm sure other people want to engage and have a chat.
Joanne Lockwood: So how do people get ahold of you? Well, you can reach me on my
Celeste Warren: website, crwdiversity.com or
Celeste Warren: you can reach me on LinkedIn. Celeste Warren, she her. Or
Celeste Warren: you can reach me on Instagram,
Celeste Warren: crwdiversity. And they're all interesting
Celeste Warren: ways to stay engaged with me. And I say interesting because I'm a little
Celeste Warren: bit less, I'm more engaging on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Celeste Warren: And you know, when you put your contact information, your email and in my
Celeste Warren: website, then we can engage there as well. So
Celeste Warren: please, please. And also too, the book, the Truth About
Celeste Warren: Equity, what it really Is, what it isn't and why everyone wins when you
Celeste Warren: get it right, is on Amazon as well. So if you want to continue
Celeste Warren: the conversation and educate yourself a little bit like we talked about, pick up
Celeste Warren: the book and, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. Well, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: going to dive over to Amazon right now and take a look, see if I
Joanne Lockwood: can find it. Is it, is it just on hard copy or is there a
Joanne Lockwood: Kindle or is there a audible? There's audible as well. Audible
Joanne Lockwood: as well. Ah, my favourite. So when I take our puppy for a walk, I
Joanne Lockwood: can, I can listen to you in my ears as I'm going for the walk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's what I do. Absolutely. Well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to head
Joanne Lockwood: over there and spend one of my credits on it. So let's do that.
Joanne Lockwood: So let's. Thank you so much. Thank you. I've enjoyed talking with you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude, gratitude to you, our
Joanne Lockwood: listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord.
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Joanne Lockwood: Reach out to Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and
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Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge,
Joanne Lockwood: inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.