WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.907 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for 2 00:00:10.907 --> 00:00:14.631 bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.631 --> 00:00:17.557 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of 4 00:00:17.557 --> 00:00:20.660 exploration into the heart of inclusion, 5 00:00:20.660 --> 00:00:24.207 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 6 00:00:24.207 --> 00:00:27.575 wondered what it truly takes to create a world 7 00:00:27.575 --> 00:00:31.299 Remember, everyone not only belongs but thrives. 8 00:00:31.299 --> 00:00:35.023 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 9 00:00:35.023 --> 00:00:38.659 challenge the status quo, and share stories that 10 00:00:38.659 --> 00:00:42.206 resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether 11 00:00:42.206 --> 00:00:46.020 you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 12 00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:49.389 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 13 00:00:49.389 --> 00:00:53.113 inspire action together. Don't forget, You can be 14 00:00:53.113 --> 00:00:56.216 part of the conversation too. Reach out to 15 00:00:56.216 --> 00:00:59.762 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share 16 00:00:59.762 --> 00:01:02.590 your insights or to join me on the show. 17 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.166 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time 18 00:01:07.166 --> 00:01:10.958 to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 19 00:01:10.958 --> 00:01:14.654 Bites. And today is episode 213. With the title 20 00:01:14.654 --> 00:01:17.970 Cultural Agility in Action. And I have the 21 00:01:17.970 --> 00:01:21.666 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Mary Lynn 22 00:01:21.667 --> 00:01:24.794 Parnell. Mary Lynn is a leadership development consultant, 23 00:01:24.794 --> 00:01:28.110 intercultural trainer, and 24 00:01:28.110 --> 00:01:31.806 relocation specialist who helps leaders and 25 00:01:31.806 --> 00:01:35.217 organisations build cultural agility, trust, 26 00:01:35.217 --> 00:01:38.819 and belonging in a global and diverse environment. 27 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:42.515 When I asked Mary Lynn to describe her superpower, 28 00:01:42.515 --> 00:01:46.115 she said this is her love of people 29 00:01:46.115 --> 00:01:49.812 and her ability to bridge worlds across cultures, perspectives, 30 00:01:49.812 --> 00:01:52.750 and disciplines with curiosity, 31 00:01:52.750 --> 00:01:56.161 empathy, and structure. Hello, Mary Lynn 32 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.520 Hi, Jo. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Sorry, I went ahead. 33 00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:06.280 I was excited. You confessed earlier that you've listened to quite a few of 34 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.000 my episodes, and I'm really honored. I've actually— I'm meeting a listener for the first 35 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:13.680 time. I have. I really enjoyed them. They're really enlightening 36 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:17.340 for some of them, especially the new ones. Balance between what you don't expect 37 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:20.060 to hear, but then when you hear it, dive down. And it was just really 38 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:23.900 interesting. Yeah, I've been surprised by some of my guests. I'm looking forward 39 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:27.580 to being surprised by you. So we were chit-chatting in the green 40 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:31.020 room earlier and we kind of 41 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:34.700 concluded, well, you led me to believe that you're a child of the 42 00:02:34.700 --> 00:02:38.180 world, not necessarily geographically defined. 43 00:02:38.820 --> 00:02:42.660 Tell us a bit about where you were brought up and how that shaped 44 00:02:42.660 --> 00:02:46.510 your life. Well, yeah, awesome. I I am, 45 00:02:46.510 --> 00:02:50.310 am a citizen of the world in the sense I, I'm a classic third culture 46 00:02:50.310 --> 00:02:54.110 child born in one country, raised in another. So I'm American born, so 47 00:02:54.110 --> 00:02:57.790 you can hear by my accent a little bit. Really astute listeners will, might 48 00:02:57.790 --> 00:03:01.510 say, oh wait, might, she she's not fully American. She might have something 49 00:03:01.510 --> 00:03:05.150 else in her. And that would be Canada. I grew up in Montreal, Quebec. So 50 00:03:05.150 --> 00:03:07.990 the only French province out of all of the English-speaking provinces. 51 00:03:08.950 --> 00:03:12.630 I spent most of my formative years in Canada and returned to the US 52 00:03:12.630 --> 00:03:16.330 when I was an adult at 18. And so my family in and of itself. 53 00:03:16.330 --> 00:03:19.450 I'm first-generation American, so when you hear about first-gen, 54 00:03:19.810 --> 00:03:23.570 that's that. I'm a very typical— my family's from Haiti, so came up with a 55 00:03:23.570 --> 00:03:27.330 very Caribbean background, and that really made life 56 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:30.930 interesting growing up Black American or Haitian American or first-gen. 57 00:03:31.410 --> 00:03:35.130 Part of the things I love because it just makes life just that more colorful. 58 00:03:35.130 --> 00:03:38.770 And moved to Europe when I was, I think, back in 2012. 59 00:03:38.850 --> 00:03:42.530 Made Europe my home, so moved to Spain and have been here ever since. 60 00:03:44.030 --> 00:03:47.150 And you now have a family in Spain, so you're first-generation Spanish, 61 00:03:47.750 --> 00:03:51.550 I guess. I moved over with 3 children. So 3 of my children, I'm a 62 00:03:51.550 --> 00:03:54.790 mother of 5, so 3 of them were born in the US and the last 63 00:03:54.790 --> 00:03:58.430 2 were born in Spain. So they, interestingly enough, if you ask 64 00:03:58.509 --> 00:04:02.070 where they're from, they say they're American, 'cause that's the kind of home culture that 65 00:04:02.070 --> 00:04:05.390 we have. So they're an American culture kid, but they have learned both 66 00:04:05.390 --> 00:04:08.990 languages, Spanish and Catalan. They love all things Europe. 67 00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:12.950 They struggle with some things US when we go back. They don't understand 68 00:04:13.110 --> 00:04:15.630 some things when they go back, so I have to teach them as we on 69 00:04:15.630 --> 00:04:18.390 the go, like, oh, this is why this is, and they don't have lived experience. 70 00:04:19.670 --> 00:04:22.550 But yeah, we're, we're a multicultural, multi-continental 71 00:04:23.670 --> 00:04:27.390 family. Maybe you should write a book on understanding 72 00:04:27.390 --> 00:04:30.950 American culture because I'm not sure anyone 73 00:04:31.510 --> 00:04:35.269 east of America gets it. No, it's one of the biggest 74 00:04:35.269 --> 00:04:38.863 enigmas. I think even some subtle things I get asked questions 75 00:04:38.863 --> 00:04:42.525 like, because most non- American countries, even America, but 76 00:04:42.525 --> 00:04:45.981 they experience America through culture, meaning movies, 77 00:04:45.981 --> 00:04:49.504 music, headlines, soundbites, you know, what does that look 78 00:04:49.504 --> 00:04:53.236 like? And I remember when I would meet people in the first years of 79 00:04:53.236 --> 00:04:56.899 living abroad, they're like, well, all you eat are hamburgers, 80 00:04:56.899 --> 00:05:00.353 right? No. I met this woman who went on a weekend getaway with 81 00:05:00.353 --> 00:05:04.150 friends and she came back all excited. They went to New York and she 82 00:05:04.150 --> 00:05:07.883 said, Mary Lynn, you can't believe what, what I found. I said, what 83 00:05:07.883 --> 00:05:11.616 did you find? She said, I found salad. I said, yeah, you can't, you 84 00:05:11.616 --> 00:05:15.380 can't. Yes. American food is the most unhealthy food. Yes. We 85 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:19.140 have an obesity issue. Absolutely. But yes, you can find healthy 86 00:05:19.140 --> 00:05:22.940 food. Yes. You can live a pretty healthy life outside of 87 00:05:22.940 --> 00:05:26.460 what we see in media. So just the, you know, the misconceptions of what 88 00:05:26.460 --> 00:05:30.180 America is. And people ask me questions. I said, the country is so vast. 89 00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:33.460 Our history is so diverse. You can't really sum it up in a 90 00:05:33.460 --> 00:05:36.860 soundbite and say that this is Americana because you have first-generation 91 00:05:37.380 --> 00:05:41.160 people, you have First Nations people, which are the You know, the 92 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.960 first Americans, like this land, like even appreciating where this land came from 93 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:49.000 in the US and taking even my favourite holiday, which 94 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.640 is Thanksgiving, is one that comes with pain. Like I 95 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.400 appreciate what Thanksgiving is for what it is today, but there's an 96 00:05:56.400 --> 00:05:59.840 acknowledgement of what Thanksgiving meant to the First Nations people. 97 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.600 So there has to be that nuance of that feeling and that 98 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.720 understanding of our history and not see it with rose-colored 99 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.760 glasses. I think that's the part that I do try 100 00:06:10.760 --> 00:06:14.580 to help people that our understand Our history is beautiful, but it's also come with 101 00:06:14.580 --> 00:06:18.260 pain. And being able to hold both things in tension and not ignoring one for 102 00:06:18.260 --> 00:06:20.940 the sake of the other. I think we went in a different place for that. 103 00:06:20.940 --> 00:06:24.700 But just really American culture, can I write a book on it? As a 104 00:06:24.700 --> 00:06:28.020 first-gener, maybe, but not— I don't have like history of 105 00:06:28.020 --> 00:06:31.460 generations of history with American culture because I do 106 00:06:31.460 --> 00:06:35.180 identify more with Haitian culture, with that idea of we 107 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:39.020 were free and independent. We fought for independence from the French. And 108 00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:42.780 so when I moved to America, and this began my journey of just 109 00:06:42.780 --> 00:06:46.560 learning and racial reconciliation education, that there were certain things that I 110 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.240 didn't tie to my history when it came to even oppression and even the 111 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:54.080 racism I felt when I came to the US. I didn't understand it because I 112 00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:57.560 came from a mentality of freedom. And so I was living 113 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.480 out and experiencing these dynamics that I didn't, I didn't 114 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.320 have any reference for. So I had to learn all of it. I had to 115 00:07:05.320 --> 00:07:08.960 learn what it, what did it really mean to be Black in America? 116 00:07:08.960 --> 00:07:12.670 I didn't, I didn't know. I really learned that in my teens. And 117 00:07:12.670 --> 00:07:16.390 really identifying with some of the struggle that I had no idea. Part of 118 00:07:16.390 --> 00:07:19.390 this is my naivete that came out of it. When Obama won, 119 00:07:20.670 --> 00:07:23.630 a white woman, I was having a conversation, a white woman, 120 00:07:24.430 --> 00:07:27.870 and she was telling me how important his win 121 00:07:27.950 --> 00:07:31.390 was. And I, as a Black person, as a Black non-American 122 00:07:31.950 --> 00:07:35.550 person, like I have to really quantify my context. I saw a man 123 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:39.310 who worked hard, who achieved a position, and she 124 00:07:39.310 --> 00:07:42.430 said, wait a minute, but for the country, it's really huge. I said, okay, well 125 00:07:42.590 --> 00:07:46.370 break it down for me, 'cause I didn't have that. I wouldn't call 126 00:07:46.370 --> 00:07:49.610 it baggage, but I didn't have that context to see that this was 127 00:07:49.610 --> 00:07:53.290 monumental for the US, right? I was like, what's going on? And she 128 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:55.930 said, no, this is, this is, let me give you a little bit of, of 129 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:58.730 history. And so, so I went to learning, learning about 130 00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:03.090 a lot of what it really meant to be Black in America. What are the 131 00:08:03.090 --> 00:08:06.490 different po— politics that happened, how it shifted from one 132 00:08:06.730 --> 00:08:10.090 party to the other. I'm still not into identity 133 00:08:10.090 --> 00:08:13.890 politics. I don't associate my name with a party, with 134 00:08:13.890 --> 00:08:17.670 a party that will never be me. I think that each party has certain things 135 00:08:17.670 --> 00:08:21.190 that are redeemable and that are important for society. So I'm not that 136 00:08:21.190 --> 00:08:24.990 typical black and white perspective type of person, but really appreciated 137 00:08:24.990 --> 00:08:28.750 having being shared like, oh no, this was monumental and now I can see 138 00:08:28.750 --> 00:08:31.750 it. And I'm like, oh right, but I just came from, you work hard. 139 00:08:32.550 --> 00:08:36.270 Yes, there are barriers, but I didn't know what those barriers were. And then 140 00:08:36.270 --> 00:08:40.030 when I learned what those barriers were, then it helped me get more context because 141 00:08:40.030 --> 00:08:43.510 I'm living out the consequences of these, of this system, 142 00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:46.910 but I didn't know the origins of it. And so now I know how to 143 00:08:46.910 --> 00:08:50.450 name it and now And now I can see it. And now, um, yeah, it's 144 00:08:50.450 --> 00:08:54.010 been, it's been an interesting journey. And then I bring that, but what it challenged 145 00:08:54.010 --> 00:08:57.210 me was to think, wait a minute, there's got to be more than this. It 146 00:08:57.210 --> 00:09:00.930 has to, how can this look globally? And that really started me on my 147 00:09:00.930 --> 00:09:04.610 journey of culture for global perspectives. So going 148 00:09:04.610 --> 00:09:07.890 back to Haiti, when you were, were you, 149 00:09:08.370 --> 00:09:11.010 did you ever live in Haiti before you moved to America? So you were born 150 00:09:11.010 --> 00:09:14.730 in America? Never. Born in America. Haitian culture, but my 151 00:09:14.730 --> 00:09:18.500 parents did. Yeah. So is that where your, your 152 00:09:19.380 --> 00:09:23.060 move to Canada and Quebec being French speaking, did that 153 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:26.860 have any influence? Do you speak French? I do speak French, trying to get it 154 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:30.260 back. I haven't used it formally in a lot of years, but my mom 155 00:09:30.420 --> 00:09:33.460 is the epitome of an adventurous, 156 00:09:33.540 --> 00:09:37.380 independent, I'm going to make a way for myself kind of a person. 157 00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:41.220 So she left her family at 18, left them in Haiti and went to Canada. 158 00:09:41.710 --> 00:09:45.310 So she went to Canada. So she, she started her life there. Then her 159 00:09:45.310 --> 00:09:48.990 family slowly emigrated to New York. Everyone else went to the States. 160 00:09:49.150 --> 00:09:52.830 She's the only one that went to Canada. And then at some point she reunited 161 00:09:52.830 --> 00:09:56.150 with my father and then they started having us and we went back to the 162 00:09:56.150 --> 00:09:59.670 US. And when I was 8, then we made the final move back 163 00:09:59.670 --> 00:10:03.390 to Quebec, back to Montreal. And so that's how she was 164 00:10:03.390 --> 00:10:06.230 there. She had a life and then she went back and then she brought us 165 00:10:06.230 --> 00:10:10.030 kids. I have, I'm the eldest of 2 younger brothers and the 4 of us 166 00:10:10.030 --> 00:10:13.660 made our life in Montreal, Quebec. Oh. So 167 00:10:13.660 --> 00:10:15.860 what did you— so 168 00:10:17.140 --> 00:10:20.620 you've got a mix of background and culture. So you've got your Haitian background, your 169 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:24.020 culture, that Caribbean, your parents and 170 00:10:24.020 --> 00:10:27.860 grandparents and ancestry. You've got the American, you were brought 171 00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:31.300 up for most of your life, then you moved to Canada, then back again to 172 00:10:31.300 --> 00:10:35.060 the US. What does Spain bring you or 173 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:38.820 Europe? Because Spain is more than Spain. Spain is now Europe, 174 00:10:38.820 --> 00:10:42.567 isn't it? It's a very European culture. It honestly, 175 00:10:42.567 --> 00:10:46.001 it amplifies what my life in Montreal was like. I, 'cause I 176 00:10:46.001 --> 00:10:49.434 couldn't go back to Canada. That just wasn't in the, in the 177 00:10:49.434 --> 00:10:52.871 cards. And I remember when I got to the US, it was 1995, and a 178 00:10:52.871 --> 00:10:56.450 part of me was like, when can I get out of here? Like, that was, 179 00:10:56.450 --> 00:11:00.172 it was, it was, that's it. I got there. I'm gonna build my life. I 180 00:11:00.172 --> 00:11:03.677 went to college, I started, started building my life at 18, 181 00:11:03.677 --> 00:11:07.182 similar to my mom. I left Canada at 18, went to go find my life 182 00:11:07.182 --> 00:11:09.780 in the US. My family lived there, so it was just easy to move with 183 00:11:09.780 --> 00:11:13.530 them. And I just, there's something that was 184 00:11:13.530 --> 00:11:17.210 missing and I wasn't fully at home 185 00:11:17.210 --> 00:11:21.010 in America and I really had to come to grips with that. 186 00:11:21.010 --> 00:11:23.450 And it took a while for that journey to realise that, you know, I really 187 00:11:23.450 --> 00:11:27.250 did. And so when I met my husband, we 188 00:11:27.250 --> 00:11:30.970 both had that sentiment. He tried to move to Europe maybe 3 or 4 times 189 00:11:32.250 --> 00:11:35.930 prior. He tried to move to Germany. And so we had that affinity for 190 00:11:35.930 --> 00:11:39.690 more, for diversity, for, for something different. 191 00:11:39.850 --> 00:11:43.690 And Europe just had the values that were very similar 192 00:11:43.690 --> 00:11:47.410 to Canada, that were very opposite from the US. And 193 00:11:47.410 --> 00:11:51.170 so from a culture, from a values perspective, America 194 00:11:51.170 --> 00:11:54.809 is very individualistic as a whole. A lot of their 195 00:11:54.890 --> 00:11:57.850 policies, the way the structure's done, their healthcare, it's very 196 00:11:57.850 --> 00:12:01.610 individualistic. Canada is very collective. It's more about the 197 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:05.210 wellbeing of everyone. And so Europe has those values. And 198 00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:08.850 so when we looked about moving abroad, we looked at France, we looked at 199 00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:12.150 different places, but we really settled on Spain, specifically in 200 00:12:12.150 --> 00:12:15.830 Catalonia, which is where Barcelona is. And it just was 201 00:12:15.830 --> 00:12:19.550 a right cultural fit. I feel more at home here than I 202 00:12:19.550 --> 00:12:23.350 had in the US, which is crazy to think. It's a whole other 203 00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:27.070 language, it's a whole other culture. But what, what the affinity I have 204 00:12:27.070 --> 00:12:30.830 for that worldview of collectivity, of collectivism, thinking of 205 00:12:30.830 --> 00:12:34.630 others above yourself, and even seeing that played out is something that I 206 00:12:34.630 --> 00:12:38.110 really do treasure. And even though it does have some of its 207 00:12:38.110 --> 00:12:41.190 challenges, and it's— and we can get into that a little bit later when it 208 00:12:41.190 --> 00:12:44.130 comes to culture and opening their borders and things like that. 209 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:48.650 Europe was just the next right move for us in the kind of life I 210 00:12:48.650 --> 00:12:52.370 wanted for myself and the environment I wanted also for my children. So when 211 00:12:52.370 --> 00:12:56.090 you're moving around, you know, you've had experience of uprooting 212 00:12:56.090 --> 00:12:59.650 and settling down again. What's the biggest challenge 213 00:12:59.730 --> 00:13:03.570 in that process? In your bio, we talked about belonging. 214 00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:07.170 We talked about cultural agility. You have to, you have to learn that it's not 215 00:13:07.170 --> 00:13:10.210 a, it's not it's not something that you just have, is it? Or maybe it 216 00:13:10.210 --> 00:13:13.610 is, maybe you evolve it. I think I do some 217 00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:17.330 workshops on third culture kids to help new arrivals with their 218 00:13:17.330 --> 00:13:21.010 children that are doing also new identity, like this culture. But for 219 00:13:21.010 --> 00:13:24.610 me, I've always said the only constant in life is 220 00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:28.330 change. And with that comes this idea of resilience. And so third 221 00:13:28.330 --> 00:13:32.090 culture kids, people who tend to move the globe, have this resilience to 222 00:13:32.090 --> 00:13:35.780 be able to adapt rather quickly. And what I also believe 223 00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:39.380 is that I do a lot of cultural work, so working with North 224 00:13:39.380 --> 00:13:42.860 Americans moving into European contexts, and some of them 225 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:46.540 struggle with new environments, some excel, some take a little 226 00:13:46.540 --> 00:13:50.260 longer, but it's being able to see and have a perspective of 227 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:53.860 if this is difficult, or for example, some of the government work that you have 228 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:57.660 to deal with, you'd get— there's inherent stress, but there's a perspective to 229 00:13:57.660 --> 00:14:01.500 say, well, this happens in every country, so this country isn't that 230 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:05.540 worse because it's harder. That perspective of it's a challenge. 231 00:14:05.540 --> 00:14:09.020 The challenge is challenging. Okay, let's move on. Let's figure it out and let's move 232 00:14:09.020 --> 00:14:12.660 on. And it doesn't impact you as much. And so there's a lot of stress 233 00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:16.420 and work that has to be done in that perspective. But for me, I found 234 00:14:16.420 --> 00:14:20.220 it rather easy. I found it rather— trying to think of the 235 00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:23.980 right word. It just was easy. And I say easy, 236 00:14:23.980 --> 00:14:27.460 but it's still challenging. I still had to learn. I still had to maneuver. So 237 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:30.980 I had to learn the language. I still had to understand the context that I'm 238 00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:34.700 working in, understand a lot of the hidden messages. I really had to become a 239 00:14:34.700 --> 00:14:38.400 student of what was happening, but to me, those things were exciting because 240 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:41.920 that comes from a, a perspective of curiosity. I wanted to know, I 241 00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:45.520 wanted to learn. I didn't want to feel like I'm 242 00:14:45.520 --> 00:14:49.200 inherently an outsider, which I am, but I'm an outsider that's wanting 243 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.880 to belong and wanting to learn. And so when you find yourself 244 00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:55.920 in that posture, it just 245 00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:00.240 becomes an adventure. It's, yeah, I, I smile and I 246 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.930 think, oh, this is amazing. Many people who have went 247 00:15:03.930 --> 00:15:07.770 from different cultures suffer from, um, we don't suffer, it's not the word, 248 00:15:07.770 --> 00:15:11.490 but we go through this journey of culture shock and 249 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:14.970 the beginning is a honeymoon phase and then you kind of go down into depression 250 00:15:14.970 --> 00:15:18.490 until you get to acceptance. But I think I've always 251 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:21.610 stayed in the honeymoon phase because I really just love 252 00:15:22.330 --> 00:15:26.090 the diversity, the learning, the challenge, and the growth. I just, 253 00:15:26.170 --> 00:15:29.110 yeah, I really enjoy all of it. I think you summed it up there. You 254 00:15:29.110 --> 00:15:32.830 have to want to join 255 00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:36.670 in. You can self-segregate. You can stay, you can say your primary 256 00:15:36.670 --> 00:15:40.230 identity. I'm American, I'm Canadian, I'm Haitian. I'm going to keep that 257 00:15:40.230 --> 00:15:44.070 identity as my primary badge on my chest and tell everybody 258 00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:47.350 I meet. Or I can say, actually, I'm Spanish, I'm 259 00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:51.190 European with a Haitian American Canadian background. I've got a bit of 260 00:15:51.190 --> 00:15:54.110 blend of everything. And it's allowing yourself to become 261 00:15:55.540 --> 00:15:59.220 or evolve into more and bring in your 262 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:02.900 current environment into your identity as well, isn't it? Yeah, 263 00:16:02.900 --> 00:16:06.700 it's, there's, I wouldn't go so much with this idea of assimilation, but I 264 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:10.299 think it's more of this evolution of being able to grow and become more 265 00:16:10.299 --> 00:16:14.140 of who you are. Some of my clients that I do consultation with 266 00:16:14.140 --> 00:16:17.420 when they come into a new city and they ask the questions, they have this 267 00:16:17.420 --> 00:16:20.380 big fear. They're like, well, do I have to leave my identity at the door 268 00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:24.080 and all the things that I love, all my culture? And I said, No, you 269 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:27.520 just, you bring that with you, but you're open to new things and then you 270 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.600 become a better, more inclusive version of yourself 271 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.440 because you're involving everything. And do you have to adopt everything of 272 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:39.000 the new culture? No. Do you have to let go of everything of your old 273 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.840 culture? No, but you find a way to have this new culture. 274 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.600 And so when we think about third culture children, specifically my children, I look 275 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.280 at them and they don't know how to answer the question, who are you? Where 276 00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:53.960 are you from? But they're creating their whole new worldview based 277 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.340 on their experience where they've come from, it's very unique to them. 278 00:16:57.740 --> 00:17:00.580 And they have to get to a point where they're comfortable with the fact that 279 00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:04.380 it's not easily defined, nor it's, you cannot put it in a box. 280 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:08.020 And so becoming comfortable and sure of yourself 281 00:17:08.020 --> 00:17:11.860 in that identity is what helps you move forward. And so that idea of putting 282 00:17:11.860 --> 00:17:15.340 in a box is something my daughter, she's 19 now, she cannot, 283 00:17:15.820 --> 00:17:19.500 she refuses to answer the race questions on an American 284 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:23.180 form. She said, mom, this is ridiculous. Why are they asking me what my 285 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:27.020 race is? That doesn't matter. Because she's biracial. My spouse is white. So 286 00:17:27.020 --> 00:17:30.400 she, for her, she's like, but I'm both. And I said, honey, we were in 287 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.360 America at that time. So she was filling out a form and she said, why 288 00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:36.920 are they asking me this question? I said, this country is based on race. It's 289 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.760 always part of the form. That's it. Answer whatever you want. So she's like, 290 00:17:40.760 --> 00:17:43.840 well, I'm gonna pick both. I said, you have every right to pick both. So 291 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:47.520 she picked both, but she just was, she was visibly 292 00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:51.160 upset. Why are you asking me that? Because in Spain there are 293 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.770 no forms that has a race designation. They only 294 00:17:54.770 --> 00:17:58.410 ask factual questions. Where was your mother born? Where were you 295 00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:02.090 born? What's your address? Right? Just very factual questions that you 296 00:18:02.090 --> 00:18:05.850 can trace, not this race question. Construct. Yes. Which is 297 00:18:05.850 --> 00:18:09.530 very, it's not, it's intangible. It's not even a tangible thing anymore. 298 00:18:10.330 --> 00:18:14.090 That's not our world. Ethnicity is tangible. Race is 299 00:18:14.170 --> 00:18:17.890 a construct, isn't it? So. Yes, absolutely. Can I say my mom is 300 00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:21.610 from Haiti? Absolutely. She's born, her passport says Las 301 00:18:21.610 --> 00:18:25.450 Caobas, Haiti with a Canadian passport as her nationality. 302 00:18:26.310 --> 00:18:30.150 That's It's factual. It doesn't say, and Haiti for, if you see my 303 00:18:30.150 --> 00:18:33.990 family, we are the whole spectrum. You have white with blue eyes 304 00:18:34.070 --> 00:18:37.030 and really dark with brown eyes. It's multicolored, 305 00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:42.550 if you call it that. That's the Haitian history. And most people 306 00:18:42.550 --> 00:18:46.230 assume it's just one, it's not black. It's, our background is 307 00:18:46.230 --> 00:18:49.590 very diverse in that sense. What 308 00:18:49.590 --> 00:18:53.415 surprised you about European, particularly I suppose Spanish culture, 309 00:18:53.415 --> 00:18:56.630 rather, 'cause Spanish is a, it's a 310 00:18:56.630 --> 00:19:00.390 microcosm of the general European culture. I'd say 311 00:19:00.390 --> 00:19:04.110 it's not so much a surprise, but it was an affirmation of what 312 00:19:04.110 --> 00:19:07.910 my experience in Canada was. And so when, and I'll bring it back to a 313 00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:11.510 different question and then I'll see if it answers what you're saying. When people ask 314 00:19:11.510 --> 00:19:15.310 me, what's your experience in America versus Canada? And I would paint them 315 00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:17.990 a picture. I said, we can be in Canada in a room, we'll have 5 316 00:19:18.070 --> 00:19:21.550 Caucasian-looking people in a room in Canada, and the 317 00:19:21.550 --> 00:19:25.320 conversations will be Where are you from? And they will say, well, 318 00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:28.880 I'm from Poland, I'm Italian, I'm Irish, I'm 319 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.680 Greek, I'm fill in the blank. That's where the conversation will be. 320 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.440 Take the same 5 people, put them in a room in the United States, 321 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:40.160 and their response, they won't even have a question because they'll see that they 322 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.800 all look alike. And that's where the conversation starts. We're all white. 323 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.600 So in Europe, it's very much about culture. They don't go a 324 00:19:47.600 --> 00:19:51.280 little step deeper, which I really appreciate. It's about culture. It's 325 00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:54.750 about your background. It's, it's, it's more, it's it's deeper, richer. Culture. 326 00:19:55.300 --> 00:19:58.762 Yes. Are there challenges? Absolutely. But that just comes out of not 327 00:19:58.762 --> 00:20:02.485 knowing. We can solve that with curiosity. That's part of 328 00:20:02.485 --> 00:20:06.132 what I do in cultural agility with my clients. How can we, 329 00:20:06.132 --> 00:20:09.545 how can we be more curious and be more inclusive in our 330 00:20:09.545 --> 00:20:13.190 interactions with people and ethnicities that we don't 331 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:16.759 know? How do, how do we approach the things that we don't 332 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.094 know? And that's with curiosity as opposed to being 333 00:20:20.094 --> 00:20:23.895 defensive and saying, I want nothing to do with that. And so 334 00:20:23.895 --> 00:20:27.540 I find that in Europe, because it's so culturally rich in 335 00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:31.262 that perspective, that they really deal on a deeper level 336 00:20:31.262 --> 00:20:34.986 with difference as opposed to this surface. I say surface 337 00:20:34.986 --> 00:20:38.631 level, 'cause that's my personal belief, but it's not so 338 00:20:38.631 --> 00:20:42.044 binary. It's not so black and white. It's not ones and 339 00:20:42.044 --> 00:20:45.595 zeros. It's complex. It's the nuances that are there. That's what I 340 00:20:45.595 --> 00:20:49.350 appreciate most about being in Europe. How can 341 00:20:49.350 --> 00:20:52.510 you walk the tightrope between cultural curiosity and 342 00:20:52.510 --> 00:20:56.190 invasive questioning? That's such a great question. 343 00:20:56.830 --> 00:21:00.590 The tightrope is there. You hold it. It's like a tension rod. You have to 344 00:21:00.590 --> 00:21:04.230 hold it with both hands and really follow the person and where they are 345 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:07.070 and engage and try to get to that second question. 346 00:21:08.030 --> 00:21:11.710 It's what I call looking between the surfaces, really getting to that second question, 347 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:15.230 really asking what are they really wanting to know? Where is the nature of their 348 00:21:15.230 --> 00:21:18.710 curiosity coming from? And I do give people more 349 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:22.050 benefit of doubt in the sense that if they don't know, they don't really know 350 00:21:22.050 --> 00:21:25.810 what they're asking just yet. So, so I tend to have a lot 351 00:21:25.810 --> 00:21:29.650 more leeway, a lot more grace, a lot more understanding and kind 352 00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:33.250 of going along. And so when I'm at a basketball game, 353 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:37.050 which this has happened, and I usually wear braids, so my 354 00:21:37.610 --> 00:21:41.250 Afro is not always out, but then when I 355 00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:44.930 have my Afro out and then they're like, can, can I, can we, can we 356 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:48.760 touch it? Can we? And so I'm like, Okay, this would not happen in the 357 00:21:48.760 --> 00:21:51.280 US. I wouldn't let this happen in the US, but I have a little bit 358 00:21:51.280 --> 00:21:55.040 more grace in European settings, especially if I'm like their first Black friend, 359 00:21:55.040 --> 00:21:58.840 right? Which is very common. And so they'll touch and they're like, wow, 360 00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:02.640 this is a lot softer than I thought. I imagined it'd be coarse. And then 361 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.320 they would engage with questions. And so I wouldn't let them touch my 362 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:09.640 children's hair. So just in case people are asking, but when it comes to me, 363 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.040 I can, I can handle that a little bit better, but have a lot more 364 00:22:13.040 --> 00:22:16.380 patience because they don't have that 365 00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:20.140 proximity that most cosmopolitan places in the US would have 366 00:22:20.300 --> 00:22:24.060 where they would be able to get it. Spain in general has 367 00:22:24.060 --> 00:22:27.780 a very short history with, with immigration. So they 368 00:22:27.780 --> 00:22:31.460 only opened their doors in 1980. And so the influx of 369 00:22:31.460 --> 00:22:35.100 having others come in, you say others, but anyone outside of being 370 00:22:35.100 --> 00:22:38.940 Spanish. And so their cultural experience, you know, is 371 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:42.320 growing, not to give it an excuse, But just to be able to say, 372 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:46.240 okay, I have a little bit more patience in order to walk with people 373 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.040 a little bit more to answer some of those questions. I suppose Spain is the 374 00:22:50.040 --> 00:22:52.960 holiday destination of Europe for a lot of people, isn't it? 375 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:57.520 Certainly people from Germany, the UK, and other countries where 376 00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:01.360 we don't have that warmer climate. So I guess Spain has been a destination 377 00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:05.000 for a while. But yeah, I suppose it is. Spain was a very 378 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.750 different country before the 1980s. It was the Franco 379 00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:12.390 government. It was a use the very— word dictator, I think was 380 00:23:12.390 --> 00:23:16.230 probably the word. Yes. And it's not that long ago, is it? 381 00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:19.550 We think of Spain. Yeah. This is how it I just think of it as 382 00:23:19.550 --> 00:23:23.270 sounds. European. It does. And then even so growing up in Montreal, 383 00:23:23.270 --> 00:23:27.110 Quebec, Canada, Canada. So Quebec and Canada as a whole had 384 00:23:27.110 --> 00:23:30.510 their, have their tension between one French province 385 00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:33.950 versus everywhere else is English. So there's a language and culture war. 386 00:23:33.950 --> 00:23:37.750 Quebec wanting to separate and doing a referendum for many, many years. I remember 387 00:23:37.750 --> 00:23:41.215 when I was younger. And so even Even in Spain, they have that same 388 00:23:41.215 --> 00:23:44.928 dynamic with Catalonia being its own, with its own language, its 389 00:23:44.928 --> 00:23:48.645 own culture in comparison to Spain as a whole. So those are themes 390 00:23:48.645 --> 00:23:52.086 and things that I definitely identify with. It's a minority 391 00:23:52.086 --> 00:23:55.801 culture in that sense. And how do you fight for culture? How do you 392 00:23:55.801 --> 00:23:59.586 fight to be seen? How do you fight to preserve what you have in light 393 00:23:59.586 --> 00:24:03.371 of the majority? And so, so it is a country that has so much richness 394 00:24:03.371 --> 00:24:07.156 in its history and in their fight for, I, I would call it their fight 395 00:24:07.156 --> 00:24:10.663 for individual, not individuality, but it's 'cause it's the 396 00:24:10.663 --> 00:24:14.309 cultural, the, the collective of that culture, but their fight 397 00:24:14.309 --> 00:24:17.957 for their language or fight for their culture. And there's 4, if 398 00:24:17.957 --> 00:24:21.604 you know, there's 4 languages in main languages in Spain. And so 399 00:24:21.604 --> 00:24:25.388 Spanish is one of them, but you have Catalan in Catalonia, you have 400 00:24:25.388 --> 00:24:29.174 Galician in the Galicia region. And so even amongst that, there's 401 00:24:29.174 --> 00:24:31.651