WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone 6 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo, and share storeys that resonate 9 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect, and inspire action together. 12 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 13 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:17.550 And today is episode 214. 18 00:01:18.610 --> 00:01:21.810 With the title Resilience Beyond Barriers. 19 00:01:22.370 --> 00:01:26.130 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Misbah 20 00:01:26.130 --> 00:01:30.130 Gulzar. Misbah is a resilience-driven inclusion advocate 21 00:01:30.290 --> 00:01:34.290 with nearly 20 years' experience in the criminal justice system, 22 00:01:34.850 --> 00:01:38.690 navigating new beginnings while championing psychological safe 23 00:01:38.690 --> 00:01:42.490 and inclusive workplaces shaped by her own lived 24 00:01:42.490 --> 00:01:46.460 experience. When I asked Misbah to describe her superpower, she said that 25 00:01:46.460 --> 00:01:50.300 it is her resilience and patience inspired by her 26 00:01:50.300 --> 00:01:53.980 children and strengthened through overcoming personal and 27 00:01:53.980 --> 00:01:57.900 professional barriers. Hello, Misbah. Welcome to the show. Hi, 28 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:01.820 Joanne. It's lovely to be here. Thank you so much. Really looking forward to 29 00:02:01.820 --> 00:02:05.740 the next kind of hour with you. But yeah, amazing. Pleasure. 30 00:02:06.860 --> 00:02:09.500 I always like to ask my guests whereabouts in the world they are. 31 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:14.750 Yeah, so I am in Stoke-on-Trent, which for people that don't know is in the 32 00:02:14.750 --> 00:02:17.710 Midlands and is famous for its pottery. 33 00:02:19.070 --> 00:02:22.510 Yes, because if you drive through, you've got all the kilns, the 34 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:27.030 pottery-shaped kilns. Yeah. Quite iconic. It is 35 00:02:27.030 --> 00:02:30.590 definitely iconic. It's an industry that obviously with, you know, the 36 00:02:30.590 --> 00:02:34.390 industrialisation is not something that is as evident, but 37 00:02:34.390 --> 00:02:38.110 there's still lots of working kilns within within the, the area. So yeah, it's 38 00:02:38.110 --> 00:02:41.270 amazing. Wow. You're probably, I think I said to you in the green room, you're 39 00:02:41.270 --> 00:02:45.210 probably the closest guest and we're still what, 200 miles apart, 40 00:02:45.210 --> 00:02:48.470 but you're probably the closest guest I've had for a long while. So yeah, it's 41 00:02:48.470 --> 00:02:52.190 absolutely lovely to speak to someone from the UK for a change. So you look 42 00:02:52.190 --> 00:02:55.590 at the notes you sent in, you talked about resilience, 43 00:02:55.670 --> 00:02:59.630 inclusion, and you actually said that you've got 5 children and 44 00:02:59.630 --> 00:03:03.510 they've inspired you and taught you a lot over your recent life. 45 00:03:03.750 --> 00:03:07.490 But take us back to being a young woman? How did that 46 00:03:07.490 --> 00:03:11.210 shape your, your belief system? So, um, I 47 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:15.210 grew up in a quite a fairly strict South Asian 48 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:19.070 Muslim household. I was one of 5 children. Um, I was the only one, 49 00:03:19.070 --> 00:03:22.890 uh, that was able to go to university, so that was a huge 50 00:03:22.890 --> 00:03:26.770 privilege. Um, I went away to university, got 51 00:03:26.770 --> 00:03:30.050 the necessary qualifications that I went to get. Um, 52 00:03:31.470 --> 00:03:35.070 Came back, and then, as with lots of South Asian 53 00:03:35.230 --> 00:03:39.190 communities, you know, the question of marriage arose, 'cause I was 54 00:03:39.190 --> 00:03:42.990 at that age. I'd obviously seen the world. I'd seen 55 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:46.910 it bigger than the northern mill town that I grew up 56 00:03:46.910 --> 00:03:50.030 in, and I wanted to see the rest of the world, and I wanted to 57 00:03:50.030 --> 00:03:53.910 be part of society as a whole. So, at that point, you know, I had 58 00:03:53.910 --> 00:03:57.510 to make a decision in terms of, you know, there's two roads that I can 59 00:03:57.510 --> 00:04:01.350 travel down. I either continue on the path that I'm on and stay with 60 00:04:01.350 --> 00:04:04.810 my family, have the arranged marriage, be very unhappy and 61 00:04:04.810 --> 00:04:08.410 unsatisfied with life, or I decide to do my own 62 00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:12.490 journey. And obviously, whilst by doing my own journey, 63 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:16.090 that would definitely mean consequences that I would have to really 64 00:04:16.330 --> 00:04:20.330 deal with along the way. So I did choose the latter. 65 00:04:20.410 --> 00:04:24.210 I did decide that actually I couldn't get— I 66 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:27.770 didn't want an arranged marriage. I wasn't the type of person that could probably 67 00:04:27.770 --> 00:04:31.650 sustain that relationship, and that was partly 68 00:04:31.650 --> 00:04:35.650 due to having to, you know, have these like 69 00:04:35.650 --> 00:04:39.410 multiple identities, you know, trying to be somebody at home and then when 70 00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:43.410 you're out of home trying to be somebody else. So essentially that decision was made 71 00:04:43.410 --> 00:04:47.210 and I left home and kind of tried to make it for myself 72 00:04:47.210 --> 00:04:50.490 really. And, and that's when I had to really— 73 00:04:51.210 --> 00:04:54.770 I really understood what the world was and how difficult it was to 74 00:04:54.770 --> 00:04:58.690 navigate, how difficult it was to be on your own, how hard 75 00:04:58.690 --> 00:05:02.250 it was to just kind of get through the 76 00:05:02.330 --> 00:05:06.330 daily kind of routine of everything. Um, so that 77 00:05:06.330 --> 00:05:09.610 then led me to, um, you know, finding work 78 00:05:09.930 --> 00:05:13.890 subsequently after my degree that I completed. Um, and 79 00:05:13.890 --> 00:05:17.610 then, you know, I, it just kind of developed from there. 80 00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:22.410 So yeah, it's been, it's been quite a difficult journey and 81 00:05:22.650 --> 00:05:26.570 it's taught me a lot. And I think part of my resilience 82 00:05:26.890 --> 00:05:30.030 has come from that, you know. So yeah. Actually. 83 00:05:31.790 --> 00:05:35.550 I know very little about arranged marriages, 84 00:05:35.710 --> 00:05:39.670 the cultural significance from your communities and what 85 00:05:39.670 --> 00:05:43.430 that means in a 2026 context, if you like, maybe 86 00:05:43.430 --> 00:05:47.110 in a 1950s or 1960s context, 87 00:05:47.110 --> 00:05:50.750 but that must have been a huge, 88 00:05:51.070 --> 00:05:54.350 huge choice for you to step out of the family. 89 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:59.180 It's almost like leaving a cult or something. You're being 90 00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:03.100 excommunicated, you're being shunned as being a nonconformer. And 91 00:06:03.100 --> 00:06:06.980 you're, I'm gonna put words in your mouth, if it sort of brought shame 92 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:10.380 on your family, those type of things. So that's what you had to face. 93 00:06:10.940 --> 00:06:14.660 Can you go into that? Yeah, no, absolutely. So I wanna say from the outset 94 00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:18.380 that I'm an advocate for arranged marriages. I'm not against it. I think once, 95 00:06:18.620 --> 00:06:21.900 I think if they're done correctly, as in 96 00:06:22.060 --> 00:06:25.820 consent from both parties and there's no coercion or 97 00:06:25.900 --> 00:06:29.840 anything of that nature, I think they're amazing in terms of— and 98 00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:33.600 I think statistics do show that the arranged marriages 99 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.240 tend to have a bit of a higher success rate than love 100 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.920 marriages. So, you know, that's what I want to say from the outset. In terms 101 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.720 of the situation that I'd been in, it was, you know, a 102 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:48.440 comfortable middle-class environment, a comfortable middle-class family, and I, 103 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.800 like you said, I had to make that decision to leave that 104 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.540 comfortableness, leave that ease of, you know, not having to worry about 105 00:06:55.540 --> 00:06:59.220 anything, being protected, and kind of almost living in a shell, to 106 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:03.220 actually going into the big, big wide world where I'm going to be 107 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:07.180 exposed to everything that I've never really been exposed to 108 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:11.180 before. And Joanne, you mentioned the cultural aspect of it as well 109 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:14.980 in terms of the shame. So you've got to think back 30 years ago, 110 00:07:15.220 --> 00:07:19.220 this was unheard of. There were very few females that would absolutely 111 00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:22.900 take that step, and it was a different generation as well back then. So when 112 00:07:22.900 --> 00:07:26.840 you look at today's generation, there's choice, There's 113 00:07:26.840 --> 00:07:30.840 absolute decision-making. The coercion is a lot less, 114 00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:34.800 and we live in a different society, so it's not the same. But back 115 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:38.760 30, 30-odd years ago, none of that existed. So the 116 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:42.640 decision that I was making had a detrimental impact upon 117 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:46.600 my family in terms of how they were viewed by the community. So 118 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.080 my dad, God rest his soul, was a very highly 119 00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:53.960 respected member of the community. He was very religious. He was well 120 00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:57.740 thought of. My whole family was actually thought well of. So 121 00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:01.580 doing what I did essentially created, 122 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:04.460 and I left behind so much, um, 123 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:09.580 kind of pain and suffering, if that makes sense, that 124 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:13.100 they had to deal with on my behalf, which is 125 00:08:13.180 --> 00:08:17.020 difficult to kind of process, but 126 00:08:17.020 --> 00:08:20.460 I can imagine how hard that would've been. So they were left with 127 00:08:20.940 --> 00:08:24.260 having to answer the community, or, well, your, your daughter, where is she gone? Why 128 00:08:24.260 --> 00:08:27.060 is she not here? Why is she not married? Where's she? What's happened to her? 129 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:30.680 So all these questions I imagine my family would've had to experience 130 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.840 and go through. That I'm not particularly okay 131 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.680 with. However, I think if I hadn't 132 00:08:38.680 --> 00:08:42.480 have made that decision, then I wouldn't be sitting here today with you, 133 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.400 and I wouldn't have the amazing life and progress 134 00:08:46.400 --> 00:08:50.240 that I've made and all the achievements that I've made. That, that wouldn't be anything 135 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.200 at all. It would be a completely different person sitting, sitting here 136 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.890 right now. Forgive me if I just ask, you've got me 137 00:08:57.890 --> 00:09:01.810 curious. Had you got to the stage where prospective 138 00:09:01.810 --> 00:09:03.770 suitors were being lined up and you—. 139 00:09:05.530 --> 00:09:09.210 Yeah. Again, I'm trying not to put words in your mouth. Yeah. Had someone have 140 00:09:09.210 --> 00:09:13.090 been, had one of the prospective suitors been an ideal match, you may well 141 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:16.970 have fallen in, but you found that they weren't suitable? 142 00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:21.250 So the matches were predominantly from Pakistan. So I, 143 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:25.250 at this point, was completely westernised and I knew that I would not be 144 00:09:25.250 --> 00:09:29.150 able to have that communication level. Level that I wanted with that person. And of 145 00:09:29.150 --> 00:09:32.910 course, with that person comes his culture, comes his kind of like 146 00:09:32.910 --> 00:09:36.710 perception of women, all of that he brings with him. So I 147 00:09:36.710 --> 00:09:40.510 was essentially, you know, having to decide, am 148 00:09:40.510 --> 00:09:44.310 I, am I able to give all that up to an individual, to 149 00:09:44.310 --> 00:09:48.110 another person, to be in control of? So in terms of my siblings, they were 150 00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:51.990 different. So they were, in terms of their mindset, their cultural mindset, their 151 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:55.710 religious mindset, was completely different to mine. Because, you know, I had had the 152 00:09:55.710 --> 00:09:59.690 opportunity to leave home, I had had the opportunity chance to see the 153 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:03.410 world for what it was. They hadn't. They had been protected, and 154 00:10:03.410 --> 00:10:07.210 they didn't know any other way. So I had that 155 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:10.850 opportunity. So I just wanted to make sure that, you know, 156 00:10:11.250 --> 00:10:15.249 and as hard as it was and as difficult it was 157 00:10:15.249 --> 00:10:18.690 for me to kind of refuse my parents' wishes, 158 00:10:19.410 --> 00:10:23.410 I absolutely knew at the bottom, you know, deep down, that I could 159 00:10:23.410 --> 00:10:27.330 never sustain anything like this, and it wasn't going to end well. 160 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:31.370 So I was prepared to take the risk of 161 00:10:31.370 --> 00:10:35.370 leaving that comfortableness and making it out on my 162 00:10:35.370 --> 00:10:39.330 own and just taking whatever came in my way and dealing with it. 163 00:10:39.570 --> 00:10:43.170 I was that kind of strong in my belief. 164 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:47.130 Some may say stupid, some may say, you know, you don't know what you're letting 165 00:10:47.130 --> 00:10:51.090 yourself in for. How can you leave what you've got essentially is 166 00:10:51.090 --> 00:10:54.610 a perfect kind of setup to something that's gonna be full of uncertainty? 167 00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:59.340 You're going to be shunned by your family, you're going to be disowned, you're not 168 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:02.620 going to have a community, you're literally going to be on your own. So, you 169 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:05.620 know, all of this was kind of— and at that point I was like 19, 170 00:11:05.620 --> 00:11:09.580 20, Joanne, so I wasn't even fully kind 171 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:13.580 of— I know females mature quicker than males in 172 00:11:13.580 --> 00:11:17.460 terms of their maturity levels, but you've got to 173 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:21.300 understand that I'd lived a very sheltered, very protected 174 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:25.220 life. So there was lots of, lots of things that were 175 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:29.700 were gonna be, were gonna be difficult that I had to face. Again, 176 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:33.700 I, I'm making some assumptions based on my own beliefs and biases. 177 00:11:34.420 --> 00:11:37.700 The Pakistani man 178 00:11:38.260 --> 00:11:42.140 would bring, as you say, their religious beliefs, their 179 00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:45.780 cultural beliefs, and almost 180 00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:49.740 treat you as property. You would, you would have less choice and 181 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:53.540 freedoms. In my head, that was what my perception was 182 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:57.720 because what I saw was my sisters and my sisters weren't 183 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:01.400 badly treated or mistreated in any way, shape, or form. But I saw that the 184 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:05.000 lives that they led, their lives were simplistic, they were 185 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.480 straightforward, they, you know, and there's. Nothing wrong with 186 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:12.320 baby machine. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, absolutely nothing wrong with that. 187 00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:16.480 But I knew that that wasn't what I wanted. I knew that that wasn't 188 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.680 what I could kind of tolerate or accept. So 189 00:12:20.680 --> 00:12:24.640 for me, you know, somebody from Pakistan, you know, he's got like, he's got his 190 00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:28.480 own belief systems, he's got this idea or perception of women. So would 191 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.340 that mean that if I were to have a career, he would turn around and 192 00:12:31.340 --> 00:12:34.420 say, actually, no, you can't work, you need to be at home, or you can't 193 00:12:34.420 --> 00:12:38.220 dress like that, or you can't wear makeup. And these are things, and they're 194 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:41.420 quite kind of large examples, but, you know, that was what was going on in 195 00:12:41.420 --> 00:12:45.180 my head, thinking I'm going to lose completely all of my identity, even though 196 00:12:45.180 --> 00:12:49.180 my, the identity that I've got is, is confused anyway because I'm trying to 197 00:12:49.180 --> 00:12:52.540 be two people at the same time and it's, it's confusing. And then add another 198 00:12:52.540 --> 00:12:55.740 layer on top of that with somebody else coming in, and then I've got 199 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:00.160 adapt to his way of thinking and his belief system. So I think that, 200 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:04.160 that for me was, was too much to kind of appreciate 201 00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:08.080 and understand. This was, I mean, guessing from the language you're 202 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.680 using, this is 20 or 30 years ago? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 203 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:16.560 It was a long time. And like I say, traditionally, my parents 204 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:19.840 weren't of the mindset of 205 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.050 freedom in that type of way, whereas You know, you look 206 00:13:24.050 --> 00:13:28.050 at the parents today and there isn't that 207 00:13:28.050 --> 00:13:31.490 push. You can go and have a love marriage, you can go and, you know, 208 00:13:32.690 --> 00:13:36.690 choose your own partner. And I think one key thing that 209 00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:41.090 I kind of want to mention, and this isn't me coming 210 00:13:41.090 --> 00:13:45.010 from any place of importance or anything like that, but I think the decision 211 00:13:45.330 --> 00:13:48.770 that I made absolutely impacted 212 00:13:48.770 --> 00:13:52.690 positively on my nieces and nephews. So they didn't have to 213 00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:56.350 experience what I experienced. So they were able to choose 214 00:13:56.430 --> 00:14:00.430 freely. And now from, you know, understanding 215 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:04.590 who they've married, the majority of them haven't been 216 00:14:04.590 --> 00:14:08.390 Pakistani people. They've been Indian or they've been from a 217 00:14:08.390 --> 00:14:12.390 different country. So all that pressure that was put on me, they had 218 00:14:12.390 --> 00:14:15.390 to be Paki— they had to be from Pakistan and nowhere else, and they had 219 00:14:15.390 --> 00:14:19.150 to be a certain caste, that, that didn't happen to them. 220 00:14:19.550 --> 00:14:23.390 And I think I know for sure that I probably was one of the reasons 221 00:14:23.390 --> 00:14:27.150 why I think that my sisters and my brother thought, 222 00:14:27.790 --> 00:14:31.710 we have to deal with this differently with our children, and we can't put them 223 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:35.070 through potentially, you know, what, what I was put through. 224 00:14:36.030 --> 00:14:39.630 So as you say, you're not against arranged marriage, it's just the 225 00:14:39.630 --> 00:14:43.430 mechanism and the 226 00:14:43.430 --> 00:14:47.350 level of, I suppose, operation, you know, if you 227 00:14:47.350 --> 00:14:51.070 were, if your views and wishes were put into there, 228 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:54.920 And you had some, can I say, buying criteria, uh, 229 00:14:55.560 --> 00:14:59.400 or profile criteria, then you might say, but absolutely, 230 00:14:59.400 --> 00:15:03.280 if you can meet this kind of aspiration for me, I'd 231 00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:06.920 love you to find my perfect gentleman that is 232 00:15:07.640 --> 00:15:11.560 aligned to who you are today, if you like. Absolutely. But 233 00:15:11.560 --> 00:15:15.000 those choices were presented to me. It was this or nothing. It was A, there 234 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.200 wasn't a plan B or C. It was, this is the person. And the person 235 00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:22.280 they wanted me to get married to was a cousin from Pakistan. And I, you 236 00:15:22.280 --> 00:15:26.020 know, as as lovely and as nice as he might have been, he wasn't 237 00:15:26.260 --> 00:15:30.180 the fit for me at all. So again, can I, if you don't mind 238 00:15:30.180 --> 00:15:33.860 me asking, what is the kind of criteria? Is it, well, 239 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:37.900 I suppose top of the list is available. Is age a criteria? Is 240 00:15:37.900 --> 00:15:41.060 there, you say their caste, where they are in society, 241 00:15:41.620 --> 00:15:45.540 their wealth, the family connection. Is it all around trying to 242 00:15:45.540 --> 00:15:49.500 bring families together and enhance the overall family structure to 243 00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:53.500 get the perfect person to amplify and to connect you together? Is that kind 244 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:57.490 of the motivation? Yeah, no, absolutely. When, when the situation of 245 00:15:57.490 --> 00:16:01.370 arranged marriages comes up, it's primarily to look within the 246 00:16:01.450 --> 00:16:05.330 extended family initially, because it is all about keeping the family 247 00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:09.250 together. I guess, you know, you know your family better than you would know 248 00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:12.930 a complete stranger, because you've literally grown up with them, and you understand how they 249 00:16:12.930 --> 00:16:16.650 are as people. So that's a positive thing. Obviously, if that's not possible, 250 00:16:16.650 --> 00:16:20.290 then you do look outside of your family. But the caste, for a lot of 251 00:16:20.290 --> 00:16:23.890 people, is very, very important. And I know that within the Hindu religion, 252 00:16:23.890 --> 00:16:27.670 caste is hugely, hugely for important for different reasons, but 253 00:16:27.670 --> 00:16:31.550 within, within the Muslim culture, and again, it's not religion. So 254 00:16:31.550 --> 00:16:35.510 this, this is, this is the other kind of problem that— not problem, 255 00:16:35.510 --> 00:16:39.510 but battle that I had. So growing up, there was a lot of 256 00:16:39.510 --> 00:16:43.430 mixing up of culture and religion, so that line was almost 257 00:16:43.510 --> 00:16:47.470 erased, so they all combined into one. And that was very, very difficult for me 258 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:51.230 to kind of understand, and, and for, for a while, I kind of 259 00:16:51.230 --> 00:16:54.860 rejected I don't know if rejected is the right word 260 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:58.940 or too much of a strong word, but I put my religion on pause because 261 00:16:59.420 --> 00:17:03.020 I, I didn't understand it. I I didn't, didn't accept it 262 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:07.100 completely because of the misunderstanding of it. But I think that's one of 263 00:17:07.100 --> 00:17:10.060 the things that, you know, still happens today. 264 00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:15.460 But having now coming back 265 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:19.380 to my religion and understanding the entirety of it, I 266 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:23.200 see it in a completely different, different view. Point. And lots of things 267 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.200 that were associated with, well, this is a religious thing and that's why we're doing 268 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.720 it. It wasn't a religious thing, it was a cultural thing. You read the Quran 269 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.080 and you think, well, actually that's, that's not even in there. And, but yeah, I 270 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:37.000 was told that I have to do this, or this, it's gotta be done this 271 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:40.920 way, it's gotta be done that way. So for me, that clarity of, you know, 272 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.800 difference between what is culture and what is religion is so 273 00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:48.680 important. And I think that was half my battle. And I think, and 274 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.480 not blaming my parents for any of this, because you've gotta 275 00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:55.740 understand that they were immigrants, and they were, you know, they came here in the 276 00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:59.100 '70s. They had to, you know, absolutely have had to, to day-to-day 277 00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:04.020 tolerate so much abuse. And I would, I can't put myself in them shoes. I'm 278 00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:07.540 thankful that they, you know, provided and they put me in a position that I'm 279 00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:10.820 in. But I think they had so much to contend with, 280 00:18:11.300 --> 00:18:14.580 and this was just another thing. So I think they did the best that they 281 00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:18.100 could with the resources and understanding that they had. 282 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:22.260 So there's no, you know, I'm not sitting here blaming my parents or saying they 283 00:18:22.260 --> 00:18:26.240 were bad people, or my family, not at all. I don't put any kind 284 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.880 of, um, anything like that at their door, because that would be completely 285 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.440 unfair. No, because they were caught up in the same construct 286 00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:37.120 of tradition and culture, expectation, 287 00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:41.599 and they're just trying to pass their traditions and culture and expectations on to you. 288 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.280 Yeah. As— because that's the expectation they have on them, because 289 00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.960 as you said, a of a lot the, lot of the shame was on them, 290 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.690 not on you. Yeah. They, they, they weren't, they must have been bad 291 00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:56.970 parents for you to go off the rails and not be a, a good daughter. 292 00:18:57.610 --> 00:19:00.810 Yeah. So they have probably had to absorb all of that. Absolutely. And, and, and 293 00:19:00.810 --> 00:19:04.410 that's the one thing that really kind of I, I've had to 294 00:19:04.570 --> 00:19:08.530 battle with over the years and, you know, but then at some point 295 00:19:08.530 --> 00:19:12.450 you have to appreciate and you have to, and again, you 296 00:19:12.450 --> 00:19:15.690 don't need their valid. And the other thing that I've tried to do over the 297 00:19:15.690 --> 00:19:18.850 years is get their validation. And I wanna explain that a little bit more. 298 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:23.800 I want them, I mean, both my parents sadly have passed away now, but 299 00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:27.480 I wanted them to know and to see the achievements 300 00:19:28.120 --> 00:19:31.200 and, and what what I, I had done with my life. I wanted them to 301 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.400 be proud of me. I wanted them to kind of say, well, yeah, she did 302 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.200 what she did, but look at how much she's accomplished on 303 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:42.080 her own. So that, you know, and, and for years and years I 304 00:19:42.080 --> 00:19:45.600 used to crave for that validation. I wanted it, but then the 305 00:19:45.600 --> 00:19:49.490 realisation hit me that, you know what? That is important, and if 306 00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:53.290 it came, that would have been amazing. But actually, you have to validate yourself 307 00:19:53.290 --> 00:19:57.210 first. You shouldn't look to others for validation. And that was a 308 00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:00.410 key point for me to say, do you know what, 309 00:20:01.210 --> 00:20:05.090 as much as I would have liked my parents to see, you 310 00:20:05.090 --> 00:20:08.490 know, that I've bought my own house, I'm a single parent, I've been through 311 00:20:08.810 --> 00:20:12.170 lots of situations with the, you know, with the marriage that I was in, um, 312 00:20:12.730 --> 00:20:16.590 but actually I, I'm still focused. I'm still a 313 00:20:16.590 --> 00:20:20.390 good human. I'm very respectable. I haven't 314 00:20:20.550 --> 00:20:24.550 been doing drugs or drinking or gone off the rails. 315 00:20:24.550 --> 00:20:28.430 I, you know, I've been a perfectly respectable person. I've stayed true 316 00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:32.310 to who I am and I've represented you in the best way possible. 317 00:20:32.550 --> 00:20:36.270 So yeah, and, and now, like I say, I don't search for that validation. I 318 00:20:36.270 --> 00:20:40.030 don't want it. I don't need it. And and, and, and I, I think with 319 00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:43.920 having my kids as well, They're the only validation that I 320 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.880 need. They're the only people that I need to not impress necessarily, but to 321 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.800 be a good role model to. So I'm again assuming here that you've 322 00:20:51.800 --> 00:20:55.440 now created your own new family culture and traditions 323 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.680 where you are the beginning of it and you've invented your own, 324 00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:03.200 this is what we do to your children and 325 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.760 that they're they're presumably, free to explore their faith, their religion., 326 00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:12.210 or not, or whatever might make sense to them, and then explore their life in 327 00:21:12.210 --> 00:21:16.170 a way that you, maybe you didn't have the opportunity to. Yeah, no, absolutely. 328 00:21:16.170 --> 00:21:19.930 So my, I've, I've got 5 children, 2 of whom are, um, 329 00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:23.730 are Muslim and 3 are not currently Muslim. They're 330 00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:27.610 exploring. And again, it's something that I'm not pressurising them, but I 331 00:21:27.610 --> 00:21:31.410 am there for the knowledge and the understanding and the support. And I think for 332 00:21:31.410 --> 00:21:34.850 me, I would love them, if I'm being completely honest, I would love them for, 333 00:21:34.850 --> 00:21:38.210 for all of them to be Muslim in, in the correct way, but of course 334 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:42.140 I'm not enforcing that. I just want them to be 335 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:46.140 good adults, P adults, indiv— you know, I just want 336 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:49.860 them to be the best people that they can be, the 337 00:21:49.860 --> 00:21:53.700 best, you know, um, people within society. And, 338 00:21:53.780 --> 00:21:57.460 and I think I'm proud of them regardless. They've, you know, 339 00:21:57.460 --> 00:22:01.380 there's no disappointment here. They are, 340 00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:05.580 you know, they've got their— they've got good heads on their shoulders, and, and 341 00:22:05.580 --> 00:22:09.570 they've, they've experienced faced lots of difficulties 342 00:22:09.570 --> 00:22:13.530 and they've experienced something that perhaps their friends haven't 343 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:17.850 in terms of their, you know, their mum and their 344 00:22:17.850 --> 00:22:21.530 mum's situation. So, you know, my parents, my 345 00:22:21.530 --> 00:22:25.290 children are mixed race as well. So that's another layer that adds on to that. 346 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:30.250 So they, they have to, um, you know, 347 00:22:31.050 --> 00:22:34.930 navigate that aspect of it as well. But yeah, all in all, they're, 348 00:22:34.930 --> 00:22:37.650 they're amazing and I couldn't be more thankful. That's wonderful. 349 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:43.040 I know what it's like to seek validation from your 350 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:46.280 parents. I did a bit of a, I don't know, I had a bit of 351 00:22:46.280 --> 00:22:49.000 a left turn when I was 16, 17, 18. 352 00:22:50.280 --> 00:22:54.120 I guess I went through that stage where I rebelled and I did something and 353 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.040 I brought a little bit of shame to my parents because of what I did. 354 00:22:58.760 --> 00:23:02.640 And I never really reconciled with my father until maybe the last couple 355 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.460 of years of his life. Life. And I realised I didn't need validation. I just 356 00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:10.020 needed him to understand that I've done okay. I may 357 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:13.420 have caused him a lot of pain, may have caused him a lot of struggles. 358 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:17.340 Yeah. And I've done things that he probably is confused 359 00:23:17.340 --> 00:23:20.740 about, but I just want to say to him, it's very similar to you. I'm 360 00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:23.820 doing all right. I've got a couple of kids. I'm married. I'm still married after 361 00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:27.740 40, nearly 40 years. And I'm very successful and I add value 362 00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:31.190 in the world and society. You don't have to get it, just 363 00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:34.590 appreciate that I'm, I've not failed. And that's kind of all you want your, 364 00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:38.630 for from your parents really. And I think that's probably what I want from my 365 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:42.230 children is for them to look at me and go, don't always agree with each 366 00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:45.910 other, but as long as we all respect each other, that's all you can ask 367 00:23:45.910 --> 00:23:49.310 for. No, absolutely. I had the opportunity 368 00:23:49.790 --> 00:23:53.590 to kind of get my father's forgiveness or reconciliation, 369 00:23:53.590 --> 00:23:57.280 whatever you want to, whatever you want to call it. And he, 370 00:23:57.360 --> 00:24:01.280 you know, sadly was at the later stages of his life. He suffered with 371 00:24:01.360 --> 00:24:05.360 leukaemia towards the end. So he asked for me to come and 372 00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:09.320 see him, which was a hugely emotional experience, as you can 373 00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:12.840 imagine. I've not seen him for years and years. And, you know, he was— I 374 00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:16.320 sat next to, you know, sat in next to his hospital bed and, 375 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.400 you know, we spoke and a little bit and he forgave me and, you know, 376 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.080 that's, that's all I kind of really wanted from him. So yeah, it was a. 377 00:24:24.800 --> 00:24:28.800 It was another turning point, but it was hugely difficult, but 378 00:24:28.800 --> 00:24:31.200 it was really welcome in the same way. Yeah. 379 00:24:32.560 --> 00:24:36.200 I know exactly what you mean. I was there when my father passed and he 380 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.160 took his last breath. And I'm really pleased that we got to that 381 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.840 point because there's no point 382 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.480 in having regrets after someone's passed. You know, I didn't want 383 00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:51.790 him to carry that to his grave and I didn't want to get to a 384 00:24:51.790 --> 00:24:55.710 situation where I never, we never reconciled. And luckily we did. And I'm, I'm 385 00:24:55.710 --> 00:24:58.910 always proud of the fact that at the end we were together. 386 00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:03.110 Yeah. And it all worked out. Yeah. It's amazing. And I look 387 00:25:03.110 --> 00:25:06.870 back and I know I could have done things differently. I was, I had to 388 00:25:06.870 --> 00:25:10.870 share some of the challenges and he could have behaved differently, but in that 389 00:25:10.870 --> 00:25:14.710 last breath, none of that matters. You know, I was holding his hand and 390 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:18.680 that's all that mattered. He knew he wasn't alone. And I think 391 00:25:18.760 --> 00:25:22.000 that was the important thing for me. So I'm pleased you, you were able to 392 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:25.800 reconcile. Yeah. At least in part. So you, you've 393 00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:30.040 had a career. I noticed that you spent a lot of time working in the 394 00:25:30.040 --> 00:25:33.160 criminal justice system. That must have been a challenge as well. 395 00:25:34.280 --> 00:25:38.040 Yeah. So that, that was really interesting for me because I guess before anyone steps 396 00:25:38.040 --> 00:25:40.960 into a prison, we've got our own stereotypes of what a prison looks like, how 397 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.520 it operates, how dangerous it is. Obviously I had all those stereotypes. 398 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.950 And as I said earlier on, my intention was never to have a career within 399 00:25:48.100 --> 00:25:51.580 the prison service. It was just a stopgap. It was just, I'd been made redundant 400 00:25:51.580 --> 00:25:54.980 from Vodafone and I was looking for something in the interim. This came up. I 401 00:25:54.980 --> 00:25:58.180