WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world Remember, everyone 6 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo, and share storeys that resonate 9 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect, and inspire action together. 12 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 13 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:14.910 --> 00:01:18.790 And today is episode 215. With 18 00:01:18.790 --> 00:01:22.750 the title Resilience Without Shame. And 19 00:01:22.750 --> 00:01:26.070 I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Nancy 20 00:01:26.070 --> 00:01:29.950 Ferraro. Nancy is an attorney, an author, and a 21 00:01:29.950 --> 00:01:33.630 special needs mum who shares an unvarnished and 22 00:01:33.630 --> 00:01:37.470 deeply human perspective on trauma parenting, together with 23 00:01:37.470 --> 00:01:41.390 advocacy and resilience through lived experience. When 24 00:01:41.390 --> 00:01:45.340 I asked Nancy to describe her superpower, she said That it is her resilience 25 00:01:45.340 --> 00:01:48.860 developed through years of raising a child with severe special needs 26 00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:52.700 and continuing to advocate, speak out, and build community 27 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:56.940 despite extraordinary challenges. Hello, 28 00:01:57.180 --> 00:02:01.180 Nancy. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. Thank 29 00:02:01.180 --> 00:02:04.820 you for having me. I'm thrilled to be with you. Oh, it's lovely. We were 30 00:02:04.820 --> 00:02:07.580 chatting just now in the green room and you said you're in the US? 31 00:02:08.780 --> 00:02:12.490 Yes, I am. I'm in Florida. In Florida, 32 00:02:12.570 --> 00:02:15.290 the Sunshine State, but it's not very sunshine at the moment, is it? 33 00:02:16.250 --> 00:02:19.610 Well, it comes and goes. The nice thing about Florida is we might get a 34 00:02:19.610 --> 00:02:23.210 cool day, but then in a matter of a couple of days, we're back on 35 00:02:23.210 --> 00:02:27.130 the beach. So we're recording this in February and no doubt this episode 36 00:02:27.130 --> 00:02:31.010 will drop in the summer. So we'll look back at this and 37 00:02:31.010 --> 00:02:33.890 go, well, actually it's a bit colder because it's a bit dank and damp where 38 00:02:33.890 --> 00:02:37.860 I am at the moment in the UK. Sorry, Will. Yeah, it 39 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:41.700 is what it is, you know. It's never the wrong weather, it's just the wrong 40 00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:45.140 clothing. You just gotta find the right clothes to wear and it's fine. Go out 41 00:02:45.140 --> 00:02:49.060 in any weather. Although in Florida in the summer, you go out in t-shirts and 42 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:53.020 flip-flops. So yeah. Yes, we do. So 43 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:56.980 Nancy, you mentioned, I mentioned in the introduction there 44 00:02:56.980 --> 00:03:00.540 and I looked in the show notes, you said, sorry, you have a 45 00:03:00.700 --> 00:03:04.670 disabled son or? Yes, I do. Well, I'll 46 00:03:04.670 --> 00:03:08.550 tell you, years ago I adopted a child from 47 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:12.470 Romania and he was 4 when he came 48 00:03:12.470 --> 00:03:16.470 to the United States and all of our reports said that 49 00:03:16.470 --> 00:03:19.750 he was typical, but George arrived 50 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:24.030 as a feral child. He was basically a wild animal in the body of a 51 00:03:24.030 --> 00:03:27.950 boy with disabilities ranging from foetal alcohol 52 00:03:27.950 --> 00:03:31.920 syndrome to attachment disorder, to institutionally acquired 53 00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:35.880 autism. We came to know George as Hurricane George 54 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:39.920 because of the violence he rained down on us. And really what I wanted 55 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:43.600 was just to give my older son a little brother. And what I got 56 00:03:43.600 --> 00:03:47.560 was a decades-long exercise in survival. 57 00:03:47.720 --> 00:03:51.560 So the reason that I wrote When the Bell Breaks, the memoir 58 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.240 about raising George, is because when our children have 59 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:58.850 troubles, and we as parents cannot solve them. 60 00:03:59.330 --> 00:04:03.250 There's a lot of shame around that. Society blames us. 61 00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:07.050 We blame ourselves and no one talks about it. And when we 62 00:04:07.050 --> 00:04:10.450 came out basically vertical, I felt a responsibility 63 00:04:11.090 --> 00:04:15.010 to shed light, share hope, and open up that dark 64 00:04:15.010 --> 00:04:18.970 tunnel because it's very lonely. All of your social 65 00:04:18.970 --> 00:04:22.819 outlets disappear. You feel like you're 66 00:04:23.539 --> 00:04:27.419 running an impassable battle and it's just trying to get from one day to the 67 00:04:27.419 --> 00:04:31.179 next. And I thought, certainly I'm not the only mother going through 68 00:04:31.179 --> 00:04:34.819 this. And certainly I'm not the only one who needs to hear a message of 69 00:04:34.819 --> 00:04:38.339 light and hope and community. Wow. That's quite a story. So 70 00:04:39.219 --> 00:04:42.659 take me back to that time. So you were, you had a child and you 71 00:04:42.659 --> 00:04:46.219 were, your plan was to adopt from 72 00:04:46.219 --> 00:04:50.060 Romania, give a child who was coming from that environment, a, a 73 00:04:50.060 --> 00:04:53.380 better life, uh, a brother or sister, whatever that may be. 74 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:57.700 And you were expecting that child to be 75 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:03.020 in need, but not in extreme need. Is that 76 00:05:03.020 --> 00:05:05.940 what you were saying? And when they arrived, they arrived almost 77 00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:09.860 blindsided you cuz you weren't aware of what was gonna happen. 78 00:05:10.820 --> 00:05:14.380 That's true. We had no idea. And even when we went to Romania 79 00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:18.280 to pick him up, it wasn't readily apparent 80 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:21.880 because he would laugh and run away from me in the streets of 81 00:05:21.880 --> 00:05:25.360 Bucharest. And I thought, well, how am I going to explain this to the Romanian 82 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:29.200 police officer? Because the only word he said was no. Is this your 83 00:05:29.200 --> 00:05:33.000 mommy? No. And I'm, you know, picturing myself in a Romanian jail. 84 00:05:33.880 --> 00:05:37.800 But he did not attach and I didn't expect him to 85 00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:41.880 because how could he? Because he didn't know us, right? So it took 86 00:05:41.880 --> 00:05:45.110 me a little bit. And frankly, I was living in denial 87 00:05:45.830 --> 00:05:49.750 until I realised that it wasn't just that he wasn't used to 88 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:53.590 us. It wasn't just that he wasn't picking up English. He wasn't 89 00:05:53.590 --> 00:05:57.350 picking up language at all. He had more 90 00:05:57.350 --> 00:06:00.630 severe disabilities than I had ever imagined. And we 91 00:06:01.510 --> 00:06:05.190 had a journey of coming to the realisation 92 00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:09.320 that love was not going to cure it. When 93 00:06:09.320 --> 00:06:13.320 you hear speech delay or developmental 94 00:06:13.320 --> 00:06:17.320 delay, to us laypeople, that means temporary, right? Delay 95 00:06:17.320 --> 00:06:21.320 is a temporary thing. But in the medical world, delay means 96 00:06:21.320 --> 00:06:25.120 a permanent disability. And I had no idea. I 97 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.080 thought I would love it out of him and then everything would be Norman Rockwell. 98 00:06:29.080 --> 00:06:33.080 Well, turns out not even Norman Rockwell is Norman Rockwell, but 99 00:06:33.080 --> 00:06:36.160 it certainly wasn't what we were expecting to deal with. 100 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:40.630 In raising a family. I'm— my mind's going back to 101 00:06:42.390 --> 00:06:45.510 a period of time a little while ago when the Romanian, um, 102 00:06:47.590 --> 00:06:51.430 government— was it Ceaușescu? Was this around that time? 103 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:55.430 Because I remember seeing storeys on the news of orphanages and 104 00:06:55.430 --> 00:06:59.350 children, right? You're right. So Ceaușescu 105 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:02.150 fell in '86, and we got Georgia in '19. 90? 106 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:07.460 No, we met Georgia in the year 2000. So there had been a lot of 107 00:07:07.460 --> 00:07:11.180 news storeys around Romania trying to join the 108 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:15.100 European Union. Ceaușescu fell, all these rescue people from 109 00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:18.820 all over the world ran in, and then the news storeys 110 00:07:18.820 --> 00:07:22.380 were Romania was cleaning up SAP. They were trying to join the 111 00:07:22.380 --> 00:07:26.300 European Union as a developing nation, and they had 112 00:07:26.300 --> 00:07:30.100 to prove that they were taking care of the children. So that's what we 113 00:07:30.100 --> 00:07:33.990 were consuming. That's what we were fed in the media. And then 114 00:07:33.990 --> 00:07:37.710 on top of that, our medical reports told us that he was 115 00:07:37.710 --> 00:07:40.750 typical, that there was nothing wrong with him. It wasn't until we got him back 116 00:07:40.750 --> 00:07:44.390 to the United States and I found a therapist who was fluent 117 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:48.390 in Romanian, who read my reports and looked at me and said, your 118 00:07:48.390 --> 00:07:52.390 translation is wrong. They knew that he was special needs 119 00:07:52.630 --> 00:07:56.350 and they passed him off on you as a typical child. So I 120 00:07:56.350 --> 00:08:00.080 remember you know, as you say, back in the '90s, the 121 00:08:00.080 --> 00:08:03.960 noughties, the early 2000s, there was lots of TV news reports 122 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.400 of those orphanages and the conditions 123 00:08:08.440 --> 00:08:11.280 the children were being kept in. So 124 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:16.640 your son was from that era. Exactly. Well, he was 125 00:08:16.640 --> 00:08:20.200 a little post that era. We thought we were past the danger point, right? 126 00:08:20.760 --> 00:08:24.640 But when I was writing the book, I started listening to interviews. Now, George 127 00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:28.640 is basically nonverbal. He speaks in 3-word sentences, gets his 128 00:08:28.640 --> 00:08:32.560 point across, but there's no way that he could tell me a 129 00:08:32.560 --> 00:08:35.840 storey that didn't involve something concrete or relay his 130 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.240 experiences. And I started listening to 131 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.960 interviews with Romanian adoptees in the United States 132 00:08:43.520 --> 00:08:47.440 who actually had a higher IQ and could put words together and tell 133 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.360 the story. And it was absolutely horrifying to me 134 00:08:51.760 --> 00:08:55.740 to know that these things probably happened to 135 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:58.780 George, but he'd never tell me and it will never come out of his mouth. 136 00:08:59.420 --> 00:09:02.940 So you can't heal a child if they can't communicate that, 137 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:07.700 right? So it's always going to be in there somewhere. And that's the most 138 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.620 disturbing part. Sorry, I'm, I'm struggling to find the words. This 139 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:15.400 is very, really emotional. This is really traumatic to listen to this story. And, um, 140 00:09:15.400 --> 00:09:18.700 it ends. Well. Yeah. 141 00:09:19.670 --> 00:09:22.590 The storey ends well. We'll get to the end. know, We, you I'm looking forward 142 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:26.550 to get to to the, the arc of the story. Yeah. So what have you 143 00:09:26.790 --> 00:09:30.750 surmised as being the root cause? Was it a birth or 144 00:09:30.750 --> 00:09:34.750 was it as a result of trauma he suffered 145 00:09:34.750 --> 00:09:38.390 while in the womb? Was it post-birth environment? 146 00:09:38.630 --> 00:09:42.550 It was actually all of the above. His birth mother drank pretty 147 00:09:42.550 --> 00:09:46.230 heavily and in Romania they make that homemade plum 148 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:50.140 brandy that's very akin to grain alcohol. Right? And 149 00:09:50.140 --> 00:09:53.740 so there's no prenatal care. So all those 150 00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:58.020 insults in utero. And then when George was born, he 151 00:09:58.020 --> 00:10:01.900 had anoxia, which is lack of oxygen to his, the brain, which 152 00:10:01.900 --> 00:10:05.580 affected his IQ. And then once he got into 153 00:10:06.060 --> 00:10:09.500 the foster care and the orphanage system, 154 00:10:10.060 --> 00:10:13.980 the way they fed the children, I'm learning, was with those big 155 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:17.530 holes in the bottle. Because they fed them the glug and they had to get 156 00:10:17.530 --> 00:10:21.490 the bottle removed for the next baby, right? So George 157 00:10:21.570 --> 00:10:25.330 developed some kind of survival mechanism so he didn't choke to death. 158 00:10:25.810 --> 00:10:29.370 And as a result of that, he has no phonemic awareness, so he has no 159 00:10:29.370 --> 00:10:33.330 idea where his tongue is in his mouth. So he has words that he 160 00:10:33.490 --> 00:10:37.250 says and wants to say, but you kind of have to know him 161 00:10:37.490 --> 00:10:41.330 to understand the point he's getting across. And he 162 00:10:41.890 --> 00:10:45.890 Let me tell you, he's very happy. He's very well settled. He's very well cared 163 00:10:45.890 --> 00:10:48.930 for. And George is the mayor of everywhere he goes. 164 00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:53.410 But those challenges and the fact that he was 165 00:10:53.570 --> 00:10:57.490 abandoned at birth mean that Mommy's 166 00:10:57.490 --> 00:11:00.450 just my name. He cannot attach to me that way. 167 00:11:01.490 --> 00:11:05.450 But not to, I don't mean to upset you because it all did come 168 00:11:05.450 --> 00:11:09.220 out for the best and George living his best life in a group 169 00:11:09.220 --> 00:11:13.020 home. He has 24/7 care and it's something I could 170 00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:16.940 not provide for him in my home. Frankly, we 171 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:20.460 had to lock our bedroom doors to protect ourselves from the 172 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:24.420 violence that just emerged from him, and you never knew when it was gonna 173 00:11:24.540 --> 00:11:27.980 happen. And so even though he still suffers from that, 174 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:32.580 I'm no longer the object of the violence and he has professionals who know how 175 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:35.960 to calm him down and separate him from the group. 176 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.920 And frankly, when it's over for George, it's over and he's 177 00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:44.920 on to snack time or TV where you or I would be blubbering in the 178 00:11:44.920 --> 00:11:48.680 corner for a week, right? No, George is always ready for, 179 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.120 you know, treats and TV and ice cream. So 180 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.960 there's a blessing there. It's like a rhythmic rage 181 00:11:57.400 --> 00:12:01.360 where he's fine, then some brain chemicals hit him, 182 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.270 he gets angry, frustrated. He takes it out on the 183 00:12:05.270 --> 00:12:09.030 world and then snap, he's back in the room and he's, he's, he's off doing 184 00:12:09.030 --> 00:12:13.030 whatever he was doing before. And it's like it never happened. So, but you're 185 00:12:13.030 --> 00:12:16.630 still bobbling. I used to say George is like the fat man who jumps in 186 00:12:16.630 --> 00:12:20.470 the pool. The fat man's always fine, right? It's the rest of us who are 187 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:23.830 bobbling and trying to save our lives in the water. So that, that must have 188 00:12:23.830 --> 00:12:27.790 an impact on your spouse, your, your, your other children or 189 00:12:27.790 --> 00:12:31.400 your other child. Right. Well, very disruptive time, wasn't it? 190 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:35.960 Yeah. Well, my marriage didn't survive. Obviously not many marriages 191 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:39.720 do, but my older son, I believe, 192 00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:43.360 is on a good path. You know, he's successful, he's 193 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.120 empathetic, he's turned into a very lovely man and I'm very 194 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.680 proud of him. But he does have trauma from his 195 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:54.600 childhood, even though I did my best to shield 196 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.220 him, to try to give him some kind of normalcy. And of course, 197 00:12:58.220 --> 00:13:01.780 I'm sure I let him do things with his friends that I never would've allowed 198 00:13:01.780 --> 00:13:05.620 before, right? Because I wanted him 199 00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:09.620 to have some kind of normalcy when I was, you know, over here 200 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:13.340 distracted with George. But he's, you know, he's fine. My ex-husband 201 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:17.500 remarried pretty quickly after we divorced, so I guess he's fine. And my older 202 00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:21.060 son is just thriving and has a lovely, 203 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:24.810 lovely husband whom I love and in Napa and just 204 00:13:25.930 --> 00:13:29.530 living life. That's fantastic. Fantastic. 205 00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:33.450 So in terms of timeline, just so I can try and contextualise this. 206 00:13:33.450 --> 00:13:36.410 So you, you picked up George in 207 00:13:36.890 --> 00:13:40.890 Romania, you went over there. How old was he at the time? He was just 208 00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:44.570 4. Just 4. Just 4. And 209 00:13:44.730 --> 00:13:48.690 mind you, I put in for an infant girl, got a toddler boy. But you 210 00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:52.140 know, so Was there any point when you were in Romania thinking, 211 00:13:52.380 --> 00:13:54.380 hang on a minute, we just need to walk away from we, this. This is, 212 00:13:54.380 --> 00:13:58.020 this is something we, we can't do this. Or, or was it 213 00:13:58.020 --> 00:14:01.180 immediately responsibility you were or as committed it were? 214 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:05.980 What happened when I saw George is I became physiologically 215 00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:09.740 pregnant with him. He was my, the moment I laid eyes on that child, 216 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:13.820 he was mine. You could have told me he was purple and had 3 heads. 217 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:17.100 I would not have heard you. He was mine and he needed me and I 218 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.970 was going to rescue him. And when we were there, and we went 219 00:14:20.970 --> 00:14:24.810 to the foster home. I was really nervous because they insisted on feeding us 220 00:14:24.810 --> 00:14:27.930 and showing us the town. And I'm like, can we just get out of here 221 00:14:27.930 --> 00:14:31.810 with my baby? I just want to get out. And then of course you 222 00:14:31.810 --> 00:14:35.010 have to go through the embassy and you have to go to the medical 223 00:14:35.570 --> 00:14:39.450 facilities. And I remember knowing just enough 224 00:14:39.450 --> 00:14:43.410 Romanian because I was learning mommy Romanian to speak to George. Are you 225 00:14:43.410 --> 00:14:46.410 hungry? Are you tired? Are you cold? Wash your hands. And the doctor 226 00:14:47.530 --> 00:14:51.090 looked at our facilitator and said, nu verbește, which is 227 00:14:51.090 --> 00:14:54.810 Romanian for he doesn't speak. And I 228 00:14:54.810 --> 00:14:58.690 remember feeling a trickle of sweat go down my back, just 229 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:02.410 pure panic. Oh my God, they're not going to let me live 230 00:15:02.410 --> 00:15:06.090 with, leave with this child. It was pure terror. 231 00:15:07.290 --> 00:15:09.890 I thought I just need to get him home and get him into a normal 232 00:15:09.890 --> 00:15:13.580 circumstance and everything will be fine. Had we had 233 00:15:13.580 --> 00:15:17.260 the luxury of true medical reports, we might have made a different 234 00:15:17.260 --> 00:15:21.060 decision. But I firmly believe that if we had not taken 235 00:15:21.060 --> 00:15:24.260 George, he would probably be dead. He was 236 00:15:24.340 --> 00:15:27.620 unmedicated. He was feral. He had 237 00:15:28.420 --> 00:15:32.420 lazy eye and he had these awful 238 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:36.100 scars up and down his back. So I know that, that there was some trauma. 239 00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:40.920 There's no doubt in my mind. That had we left him there or sent him 240 00:15:40.920 --> 00:15:44.840 back, he wouldn't have survived very long. So 241 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:48.680 in a way, in a very weird, strange way, I'm very grateful they landed 242 00:15:48.680 --> 00:15:52.560 with me because I have ESQ behind my name. For 243 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:56.560 some reason, when you're an attorney, that scares people. So I 244 00:15:56.560 --> 00:16:00.120 took full advantage of that. I wrote all my letters on law firm 245 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.720 letterhead because it gave the 246 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.510 impression that I had much more knowledge than I did. That's 247 00:16:07.510 --> 00:16:11.390 okay. You know, I needed to get somewhere for George and I used any 248 00:16:11.390 --> 00:16:15.310 means that I had at my disposal to make headway for 249 00:16:15.310 --> 00:16:19.230 him. So in a way, he landed with the right people. How is he 250 00:16:19.230 --> 00:16:22.950 now? Oh, George. George is living large. 251 00:16:23.270 --> 00:16:26.950 He lives in a group home with 2 other boys. It is not 252 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:31.560 the scary institution that I 253 00:16:31.560 --> 00:16:35.120 pictured for so many years, and that's the reason I fought it for so long. 254 00:16:35.760 --> 00:16:39.760 But he goes on outings. He spends all his money at Wawa, which 255 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.360 here is like heaven for coffee lovers. It's a 256 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:47.320 convenience store. He tastes all the flavors. I think one month he 257 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:51.280 spent $300 on coffee. I'm like, George, you know, rein it in a little bit, 258 00:16:51.280 --> 00:16:55.080 right? But he's happy. He goes to day program. He goes on 259 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.620 outings. He goes to his dad every other weekend. And 260 00:16:58.700 --> 00:17:02.060 frankly, the world is his oyster. And he's what, 20-something, is he? 261 00:17:02.620 --> 00:17:03.740 He's now 29. 262 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:10.340 So how many years was it that you tried to parent 263 00:17:10.340 --> 00:17:13.660 him at home? How long did it take you before. You— It was 9 264 00:17:15.020 --> 00:17:19.020 years. 9 years. Almost to the day. Yes. And part of it 265 00:17:19.020 --> 00:17:23.020 was I was afraid because he was so little. Every doctor 266 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:27.139 since we brought him home said, this child needs to be in an institution. He 267 00:17:27.139 --> 00:17:30.779 needs more help than you can give him. And frankly, I was doctor shopping 268 00:17:30.939 --> 00:17:34.899 because I am mother, hear me roar, and I was going to fix 269 00:17:34.899 --> 00:17:38.579 this. And every doctor that didn't give me the fix, I dismissed as a 270 00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:41.579 quack. Well, had I listened to those doctors, 271 00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:46.579 I should have listened to those doctors, but I was not willing to 272 00:17:46.579 --> 00:17:50.310 at the time. And then The word institution 273 00:17:50.310 --> 00:17:54.150 scared me because I I was, had this image of these 274 00:17:54.390 --> 00:17:57.670 horrible places where they tie kids to the bed and I didn't want that. I 275 00:17:57.670 --> 00:18:01.350 was very frightened that he would get hurt, that he would be mistreated. 276 00:18:02.790 --> 00:18:06.470 But once we started to actually explore the 277 00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:10.390 services available and the places, it became a whole 278 00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:14.270 different story. It's like, why did I not do this for him before? And 279 00:18:14.270 --> 00:18:17.570 it is really the best decision I ever made for him 280 00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:22.610 because of the structure they're able to give him because of the way 281 00:18:23.010 --> 00:18:26.810 they keep them on a schedule. They manage him and 282 00:18:26.810 --> 00:18:30.810 they, they're professionals and they have an 8-hour shift and then they 283 00:18:30.810 --> 00:18:34.276 go home. Right. I didn't have an 8-hour shift. I had a 24/7 284 00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:38.290 shift and was just completely burned out. Look at, think 285 00:18:39.970 --> 00:18:43.830 of the timeline. You picked him up at 3 or 4. You were able 286 00:18:43.830 --> 00:18:47.576 to parent him at home for about 9 years. That means he was what, 13, 287 00:18:47.644 --> 00:18:51.590 14? I presume at that age, as you said, you, you were getting worried of 288 00:18:51.590 --> 00:18:55.310 him hurting you, hurting others. He would've been becoming a 289 00:18:55.310 --> 00:18:59.110 teenage boy, developing strength and, uh, you know, 290 00:18:59.830 --> 00:19:03.590 his physical, physical strength would've been growing considerably at that point, wouldn't it? 291 00:19:04.310 --> 00:19:08.070 Yeah. Well, he had strength when he came home. His, when he was 4, 292 00:19:08.990 --> 00:19:12.830 And he would start raging. Those chemicals kick in. And 293 00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:16.030 also his muscles were taut, which is not 294 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:20.190 normal. Toddlers are supposed to be chubby, right? 295 00:19:20.430 --> 00:19:24.350 George was not. He was very sinewy. And so when he decided 296 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:28.270 to rearrange his furniture and it was nothing, 297 00:19:28.350 --> 00:19:31.870 he was in a rage, everything would be moved. And then I'd go in later 298 00:19:31.870 --> 00:19:35.470 and try to move everything back. It was really difficult. He 299 00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:39.550 had this Herculean strength that was just 300 00:19:39.550 --> 00:19:43.350 abnormal for a child. And the, yes, the bigger he grew, 301 00:19:43.350 --> 00:19:47.350 the more frightened we became. I became, I was the one home with 302 00:19:47.350 --> 00:19:50.830 him. You, you. I think you 303 00:19:50.830 --> 00:19:54.750 mentioned you are part of a, a community or a network of other 304 00:19:55.150 --> 00:19:58.670 parents or people who have adopted or brought 305 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:02.430 children into the country from Romania or other places. 306 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:06.490 Are there other storeys from other, other people of 307 00:20:07.450 --> 00:20:11.290 similar situations? Shockingly, there 308 00:20:11.290 --> 00:20:15.170 are more storeys than I imagined. And when I go to conferences and talk 309 00:20:15.170 --> 00:20:18.730 to parents and realise how much 310 00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:23.090 violence is produced in these children, and not just George, not just 311 00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:26.730 children from Romania, not just children with foetal alcohol syndrome, 312 00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:29.850 children who suffer from certain types of autism. 313 00:20:31.370 --> 00:20:35.210 Because they have no frustration tolerance and that causes 314 00:20:35.370 --> 00:20:38.890 violence. And I've seen so many parents who are 315 00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.970 burned out, hanging on by their fingernails. So 316 00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:47.050 I am really on a mission to reach those parents. 317 00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:50.730 And I'll be speaking at the largest special needs 318 00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:54.730 conference in Florida this year. And I hope that is just the beginning 319 00:20:55.370 --> 00:20:59.210 because Mothers especially, anyone who stood 320 00:20:59.210 --> 00:21:03.050 in the shoes of motherhood, could be a father, but anyone who's had 321 00:21:03.050 --> 00:21:06.890 that all-encompassing responsibility and that 322 00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:10.890 feeling that if I can't fix this, who will? 323 00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:15.810 They need to hear that message. And people come up to me afterward and of 324 00:21:15.810 --> 00:21:19.450 course we all cry. We cry because they 325 00:21:19.610 --> 00:21:23.570 finally feel heard. They finally feel like someone has experienced what 326 00:21:23.570 --> 00:21:26.680 they're going through right now. And has come out the other side. 327 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.840 So I really am so purpose-driven 328 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.760 to get in front of as many parents who have experienced traumatic parenting as 329 00:21:35.760 --> 00:21:38.360 I can. And this is not just adoptees. This is 330 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.080 parents, birth, birth parents as well in the US and around the world. 331 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.560 And funny thing is, parents give birth to foetal alcohol syndrome 332 00:21:47.560 --> 00:21:50.840 children in the United States as they do all over the world. But of course, 333 00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:54.800 there's a modicum of shame with that because that means admitting that there 334 00:21:54.800 --> 00:21:58.760 was alcohol consumption during pregnancy. But we can't hang on that 335 00:21:58.760 --> 00:22:02.520 because that gets us nowhere. We have something called the 336 00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:06.280 Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Respect Act that works its way through Congress, 337 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.120 but there has to be conversation. And 338 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.200 I'm happy that you do this. I know that you do a lot of this 339 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.840 because fear hides in the darkness, right? You 340 00:22:18.840 --> 00:22:22.410 have to bring issues out into the open in order 341 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:27.130 for people to talk about it, remove the shame, start 342 00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:31.090 connecting with each other. Yeah, it is. And shame is one of those emotions that 343 00:22:31.090 --> 00:22:34.970 has no purpose really. It's an internal thing, isn't it? It's, you need to 344 00:22:35.370 --> 00:22:38.970 lose it and find action, find purpose. And I think 345 00:22:39.050 --> 00:22:42.650 reclaim. But I'm guessing if your child 346 00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:46.250 is suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome, you as a mother 347 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:50.970 birth mother would still be going through some of the crisis of, of your 348 00:22:50.970 --> 00:22:54.850 alcohol dependency. And I'm assuming that alcohol dependency would 349 00:22:54.850 --> 00:22:58.770 lead to homelessness, joblessness, relationship issues, lots of 350 00:22:58.770 --> 00:23:02.210 other things, and probably maybe even drugs and other, other, other dependencies. 351 00:23:02.770 --> 00:23:06.210 So you, you're probably not in the best place regardless of, of dealing with the 352 00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:09.130 child. You've got some other challenges to deal with in life your own for yourself 353 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:12.610 as well, haven't you? Yes. I, I'm, 354 00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:16.570 ashamed to tell you, but I'm not. It's in the book. My life is an 355 00:23:16.570 --> 00:23:20.450 open book. Believe I was actively trying to kill myself with alcohol 356 00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:25.810 because it was numbing. And I would hear that bus, the 357 00:23:25.890 --> 00:23:29.090 short bus coming down the gravel driveway. We had a 50-foot 358 00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:33.650 gravel driveway. And when I heard those bus tyres 359 00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:37.890 start down and the crunching, it was 360 00:23:39.340 --> 00:23:43.220 amazing the ability I developed to open a bottle of wine 361 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:46.140 by banging it against the wall. I mean, I was a master at it 362 00:23:47.340 --> 00:23:50.580 because it was so common. So you're getting the cork out by—. Oh, I'm good 363 00:23:50.580 --> 00:23:54.140 at it. I could show you how to do that. But I was so frightened 364 00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:57.780 of what was coming in the door. He could be angelic or he could be 365 00:23:57.780 --> 00:24:00.700 come coming, in attacking me. I never knew what was coming. 366 00:24:01.580 --> 00:24:05.380 So yes, there was a lot of destructive behaviour and I'm not 367 00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:08.890 proud of it. But it was the only way I knew to cope at the 368 00:24:08.890 --> 00:24:12.690 time. So you've sorted 369 00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:14.650 yourself out. You uh, found, found 370 00:24:18.170 --> 00:24:22.089 a better way without alcohol. Have you, are you now 10 years sober, 20 years 371 00:24:22.089 --> 00:24:25.810 sober? No, what I discovered is I'm not really an 372 00:24:25.810 --> 00:24:29.370 alcoholic because I've, I went through the process and 373 00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:33.850 discovered that I can have a cocktail and not and have an off button. 374 00:24:33.850 --> 00:24:36.610 It was a response to trauma. And just like anything, 375 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:41.210 depression, it was a response to trauma. And of course, it took a 376 00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:45.010 few years to unwind from that because you're so 377 00:24:45.010 --> 00:24:48.850 used to being in panic mode, in survival mode, that when you're 378 00:24:48.850 --> 00:24:52.610 not, you kind of create something because you're so used 379 00:24:52.610 --> 00:24:56.370 to— it's what you know, right? The trauma, the 380 00:24:56.370 --> 00:25:00.220 conflict is what you know. So it took me quite some time to cycle 381 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:03.180 out of it, but there is light on the other side. 382 00:25:05.020 --> 00:25:08.980 So you've written this book about your life, I 383 00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:12.780 suppose. And I think you said before we went 384 00:25:12.780 --> 00:25:16.660 live, it's about being able to change the life of 385 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:20.540 one other person to have a more positive outcome. So it's about creating that 386 00:25:20.540 --> 00:25:23.260 awareness, isn't it? So when did you write that? How long ago did you write 387 00:25:23.260 --> 00:25:26.710 the book? I started writing it. About 388 00:25:27.590 --> 00:25:31.470 10 years ago. And I actually went to a 389 00:25:31.470 --> 00:25:35.150 pitch conference in New York City and I was asked for a book proposal by 390 00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:39.110 a major publisher. And I had no idea what a book proposal was, 391 00:25:39.110 --> 00:25:43.070 let alone any of that. I had 10 pages and an idea. And 392 00:25:43.070 --> 00:25:46.790 my older son said, I'm not over my childhood with George, mom. You 393 00:25:46.790 --> 00:25:50.150 can't put this out. And I said, okay, put it away. 394 00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:54.600 And then a few years ago, I had been stalking a writer's 395 00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:57.880 retreat. I knew I was going to write the book. I just didn't know what 396 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.840 I was going to do with it. And I got into the finals of this 397 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.840 national writing competition. And again, I called my older son. I said, 398 00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:08.440 honey, I won't do it if you don't want me to. And he said, no, 399 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:10.960 mom, go for it. I'm proud of you. I said, okay, honey, don't read the 400 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.880 book. And so as far 401 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:18.210