Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 215. With
Joanne Lockwood: the title Resilience Without Shame. And
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Nancy
Joanne Lockwood: Ferraro. Nancy is an attorney, an author, and a
Joanne Lockwood: special needs mum who shares an unvarnished and
Joanne Lockwood: deeply human perspective on trauma parenting, together with
Joanne Lockwood: advocacy and resilience through lived experience. When
Joanne Lockwood: I asked Nancy to describe her superpower, she said That it is her resilience
Joanne Lockwood: developed through years of raising a child with severe special needs
Joanne Lockwood: and continuing to advocate, speak out, and build community
Joanne Lockwood: despite extraordinary challenges. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Nancy. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. Thank
Nancy Ferraro: you for having me. I'm thrilled to be with you. Oh, it's lovely. We were
Joanne Lockwood: chatting just now in the green room and you said you're in the US?
Nancy Ferraro: Yes, I am. I'm in Florida. In Florida,
Joanne Lockwood: the Sunshine State, but it's not very sunshine at the moment, is it?
Nancy Ferraro: Well, it comes and goes. The nice thing about Florida is we might get a
Nancy Ferraro: cool day, but then in a matter of a couple of days, we're back on
Nancy Ferraro: the beach. So we're recording this in February and no doubt this episode
Joanne Lockwood: will drop in the summer. So we'll look back at this and
Joanne Lockwood: go, well, actually it's a bit colder because it's a bit dank and damp where
Joanne Lockwood: I am at the moment in the UK. Sorry, Will. Yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: is what it is, you know. It's never the wrong weather, it's just the wrong
Joanne Lockwood: clothing. You just gotta find the right clothes to wear and it's fine. Go out
Joanne Lockwood: in any weather. Although in Florida in the summer, you go out in t-shirts and
Joanne Lockwood: flip-flops. So yeah. Yes, we do. So
Joanne Lockwood: Nancy, you mentioned, I mentioned in the introduction there
Joanne Lockwood: and I looked in the show notes, you said, sorry, you have a
Joanne Lockwood: disabled son or? Yes, I do. Well, I'll
Nancy Ferraro: tell you, years ago I adopted a child from
Nancy Ferraro: Romania and he was 4 when he came
Nancy Ferraro: to the United States and all of our reports said that
Nancy Ferraro: he was typical, but George arrived
Nancy Ferraro: as a feral child. He was basically a wild animal in the body of a
Nancy Ferraro: boy with disabilities ranging from foetal alcohol
Nancy Ferraro: syndrome to attachment disorder, to institutionally acquired
Nancy Ferraro: autism. We came to know George as Hurricane George
Nancy Ferraro: because of the violence he rained down on us. And really what I wanted
Nancy Ferraro: was just to give my older son a little brother. And what I got
Nancy Ferraro: was a decades-long exercise in survival.
Nancy Ferraro: So the reason that I wrote When the Bell Breaks, the memoir
Nancy Ferraro: about raising George, is because when our children have
Nancy Ferraro: troubles, and we as parents cannot solve them.
Nancy Ferraro: There's a lot of shame around that. Society blames us.
Nancy Ferraro: We blame ourselves and no one talks about it. And when we
Nancy Ferraro: came out basically vertical, I felt a responsibility
Nancy Ferraro: to shed light, share hope, and open up that dark
Nancy Ferraro: tunnel because it's very lonely. All of your social
Nancy Ferraro: outlets disappear. You feel like you're
Nancy Ferraro: running an impassable battle and it's just trying to get from one day to the
Nancy Ferraro: next. And I thought, certainly I'm not the only mother going through
Nancy Ferraro: this. And certainly I'm not the only one who needs to hear a message of
Nancy Ferraro: light and hope and community. Wow. That's quite a story. So
Joanne Lockwood: take me back to that time. So you were, you had a child and you
Joanne Lockwood: were, your plan was to adopt from
Joanne Lockwood: Romania, give a child who was coming from that environment, a, a
Joanne Lockwood: better life, uh, a brother or sister, whatever that may be.
Joanne Lockwood: And you were expecting that child to be
Joanne Lockwood: in need, but not in extreme need. Is that
Joanne Lockwood: what you were saying? And when they arrived, they arrived almost
Joanne Lockwood: blindsided you cuz you weren't aware of what was gonna happen.
Nancy Ferraro: That's true. We had no idea. And even when we went to Romania
Nancy Ferraro: to pick him up, it wasn't readily apparent
Nancy Ferraro: because he would laugh and run away from me in the streets of
Nancy Ferraro: Bucharest. And I thought, well, how am I going to explain this to the Romanian
Nancy Ferraro: police officer? Because the only word he said was no. Is this your
Nancy Ferraro: mommy? No. And I'm, you know, picturing myself in a Romanian jail.
Nancy Ferraro: But he did not attach and I didn't expect him to
Nancy Ferraro: because how could he? Because he didn't know us, right? So it took
Nancy Ferraro: me a little bit. And frankly, I was living in denial
Nancy Ferraro: until I realised that it wasn't just that he wasn't used to
Nancy Ferraro: us. It wasn't just that he wasn't picking up English. He wasn't
Nancy Ferraro: picking up language at all. He had more
Nancy Ferraro: severe disabilities than I had ever imagined. And we
Nancy Ferraro: had a journey of coming to the realisation
Nancy Ferraro: that love was not going to cure it. When
Nancy Ferraro: you hear speech delay or developmental
Nancy Ferraro: delay, to us laypeople, that means temporary, right? Delay
Nancy Ferraro: is a temporary thing. But in the medical world, delay means
Nancy Ferraro: a permanent disability. And I had no idea. I
Nancy Ferraro: thought I would love it out of him and then everything would be Norman Rockwell.
Nancy Ferraro: Well, turns out not even Norman Rockwell is Norman Rockwell, but
Nancy Ferraro: it certainly wasn't what we were expecting to deal with.
Nancy Ferraro: In raising a family. I'm— my mind's going back to
Joanne Lockwood: a period of time a little while ago when the Romanian, um,
Joanne Lockwood: government— was it Ceaușescu? Was this around that time?
Joanne Lockwood: Because I remember seeing storeys on the news of orphanages and
Joanne Lockwood: children, right? You're right. So Ceaușescu
Nancy Ferraro: fell in '86, and we got Georgia in '19. 90?
Nancy Ferraro: No, we met Georgia in the year 2000. So there had been a lot of
Nancy Ferraro: news storeys around Romania trying to join the
Nancy Ferraro: European Union. Ceaușescu fell, all these rescue people from
Nancy Ferraro: all over the world ran in, and then the news storeys
Nancy Ferraro: were Romania was cleaning up SAP. They were trying to join the
Nancy Ferraro: European Union as a developing nation, and they had
Nancy Ferraro: to prove that they were taking care of the children. So that's what we
Nancy Ferraro: were consuming. That's what we were fed in the media. And then
Nancy Ferraro: on top of that, our medical reports told us that he was
Nancy Ferraro: typical, that there was nothing wrong with him. It wasn't until we got him back
Nancy Ferraro: to the United States and I found a therapist who was fluent
Nancy Ferraro: in Romanian, who read my reports and looked at me and said, your
Nancy Ferraro: translation is wrong. They knew that he was special needs
Nancy Ferraro: and they passed him off on you as a typical child. So I
Joanne Lockwood: remember you know, as you say, back in the '90s, the
Joanne Lockwood: noughties, the early 2000s, there was lots of TV news reports
Joanne Lockwood: of those orphanages and the conditions
Joanne Lockwood: the children were being kept in. So
Joanne Lockwood: your son was from that era. Exactly. Well, he was
Nancy Ferraro: a little post that era. We thought we were past the danger point, right?
Nancy Ferraro: But when I was writing the book, I started listening to interviews. Now, George
Nancy Ferraro: is basically nonverbal. He speaks in 3-word sentences, gets his
Nancy Ferraro: point across, but there's no way that he could tell me a
Nancy Ferraro: storey that didn't involve something concrete or relay his
Nancy Ferraro: experiences. And I started listening to
Nancy Ferraro: interviews with Romanian adoptees in the United States
Nancy Ferraro: who actually had a higher IQ and could put words together and tell
Nancy Ferraro: the story. And it was absolutely horrifying to me
Nancy Ferraro: to know that these things probably happened to
Nancy Ferraro: George, but he'd never tell me and it will never come out of his mouth.
Nancy Ferraro: So you can't heal a child if they can't communicate that,
Nancy Ferraro: right? So it's always going to be in there somewhere. And that's the most
Nancy Ferraro: disturbing part. Sorry, I'm, I'm struggling to find the words. This
Joanne Lockwood: is very, really emotional. This is really traumatic to listen to this story. And, um,
Joanne Lockwood: it ends. Well. Yeah.
Nancy Ferraro: The storey ends well. We'll get to the end. know, We, you I'm looking forward
Joanne Lockwood: to get to to the, the arc of the story. Yeah. So what have you
Joanne Lockwood: surmised as being the root cause? Was it a birth or
Joanne Lockwood: was it as a result of trauma he suffered
Joanne Lockwood: while in the womb? Was it post-birth environment?
Nancy Ferraro: It was actually all of the above. His birth mother drank pretty
Nancy Ferraro: heavily and in Romania they make that homemade plum
Nancy Ferraro: brandy that's very akin to grain alcohol. Right? And
Nancy Ferraro: so there's no prenatal care. So all those
Nancy Ferraro: insults in utero. And then when George was born, he
Nancy Ferraro: had anoxia, which is lack of oxygen to his, the brain, which
Nancy Ferraro: affected his IQ. And then once he got into
Nancy Ferraro: the foster care and the orphanage system,
Nancy Ferraro: the way they fed the children, I'm learning, was with those big
Nancy Ferraro: holes in the bottle. Because they fed them the glug and they had to get
Nancy Ferraro: the bottle removed for the next baby, right? So George
Nancy Ferraro: developed some kind of survival mechanism so he didn't choke to death.
Nancy Ferraro: And as a result of that, he has no phonemic awareness, so he has no
Nancy Ferraro: idea where his tongue is in his mouth. So he has words that he
Nancy Ferraro: says and wants to say, but you kind of have to know him
Nancy Ferraro: to understand the point he's getting across. And he
Nancy Ferraro: Let me tell you, he's very happy. He's very well settled. He's very well cared
Nancy Ferraro: for. And George is the mayor of everywhere he goes.
Nancy Ferraro: But those challenges and the fact that he was
Nancy Ferraro: abandoned at birth mean that Mommy's
Nancy Ferraro: just my name. He cannot attach to me that way.
Nancy Ferraro: But not to, I don't mean to upset you because it all did come
Nancy Ferraro: out for the best and George living his best life in a group
Nancy Ferraro: home. He has 24/7 care and it's something I could
Nancy Ferraro: not provide for him in my home. Frankly, we
Nancy Ferraro: had to lock our bedroom doors to protect ourselves from the
Nancy Ferraro: violence that just emerged from him, and you never knew when it was gonna
Nancy Ferraro: happen. And so even though he still suffers from that,
Nancy Ferraro: I'm no longer the object of the violence and he has professionals who know how
Nancy Ferraro: to calm him down and separate him from the group.
Nancy Ferraro: And frankly, when it's over for George, it's over and he's
Nancy Ferraro: on to snack time or TV where you or I would be blubbering in the
Nancy Ferraro: corner for a week, right? No, George is always ready for,
Nancy Ferraro: you know, treats and TV and ice cream. So
Nancy Ferraro: there's a blessing there. It's like a rhythmic rage
Joanne Lockwood: where he's fine, then some brain chemicals hit him,
Joanne Lockwood: he gets angry, frustrated. He takes it out on the
Joanne Lockwood: world and then snap, he's back in the room and he's, he's, he's off doing
Joanne Lockwood: whatever he was doing before. And it's like it never happened. So, but you're
Nancy Ferraro: still bobbling. I used to say George is like the fat man who jumps in
Nancy Ferraro: the pool. The fat man's always fine, right? It's the rest of us who are
Nancy Ferraro: bobbling and trying to save our lives in the water. So that, that must have
Joanne Lockwood: an impact on your spouse, your, your, your other children or
Joanne Lockwood: your other child. Right. Well, very disruptive time, wasn't it?
Nancy Ferraro: Yeah. Well, my marriage didn't survive. Obviously not many marriages
Nancy Ferraro: do, but my older son, I believe,
Nancy Ferraro: is on a good path. You know, he's successful, he's
Nancy Ferraro: empathetic, he's turned into a very lovely man and I'm very
Nancy Ferraro: proud of him. But he does have trauma from his
Nancy Ferraro: childhood, even though I did my best to shield
Nancy Ferraro: him, to try to give him some kind of normalcy. And of course,
Nancy Ferraro: I'm sure I let him do things with his friends that I never would've allowed
Nancy Ferraro: before, right? Because I wanted him
Nancy Ferraro: to have some kind of normalcy when I was, you know, over here
Nancy Ferraro: distracted with George. But he's, you know, he's fine. My ex-husband
Nancy Ferraro: remarried pretty quickly after we divorced, so I guess he's fine. And my older
Nancy Ferraro: son is just thriving and has a lovely,
Nancy Ferraro: lovely husband whom I love and in Napa and just
Nancy Ferraro: living life. That's fantastic. Fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: So in terms of timeline, just so I can try and contextualise this.
Joanne Lockwood: So you, you picked up George in
Joanne Lockwood: Romania, you went over there. How old was he at the time? He was just
Nancy Ferraro: 4. Just 4. Just 4. And
Nancy Ferraro: mind you, I put in for an infant girl, got a toddler boy. But you
Joanne Lockwood: know, so Was there any point when you were in Romania thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: hang on a minute, we just need to walk away from we, this. This is,
Joanne Lockwood: this is something we, we can't do this. Or, or was it
Joanne Lockwood: immediately responsibility you were or as committed it were?
Nancy Ferraro: What happened when I saw George is I became physiologically
Nancy Ferraro: pregnant with him. He was my, the moment I laid eyes on that child,
Nancy Ferraro: he was mine. You could have told me he was purple and had 3 heads.
Nancy Ferraro: I would not have heard you. He was mine and he needed me and I
Nancy Ferraro: was going to rescue him. And when we were there, and we went
Nancy Ferraro: to the foster home. I was really nervous because they insisted on feeding us
Nancy Ferraro: and showing us the town. And I'm like, can we just get out of here
Nancy Ferraro: with my baby? I just want to get out. And then of course you
Nancy Ferraro: have to go through the embassy and you have to go to the medical
Nancy Ferraro: facilities. And I remember knowing just enough
Nancy Ferraro: Romanian because I was learning mommy Romanian to speak to George. Are you
Nancy Ferraro: hungry? Are you tired? Are you cold? Wash your hands. And the doctor
Nancy Ferraro: looked at our facilitator and said, nu verbește, which is
Nancy Ferraro: Romanian for he doesn't speak. And I
Nancy Ferraro: remember feeling a trickle of sweat go down my back, just
Nancy Ferraro: pure panic. Oh my God, they're not going to let me live
Nancy Ferraro: with, leave with this child. It was pure terror.
Nancy Ferraro: I thought I just need to get him home and get him into a normal
Nancy Ferraro: circumstance and everything will be fine. Had we had
Nancy Ferraro: the luxury of true medical reports, we might have made a different
Nancy Ferraro: decision. But I firmly believe that if we had not taken
Nancy Ferraro: George, he would probably be dead. He was
Nancy Ferraro: unmedicated. He was feral. He had
Nancy Ferraro: lazy eye and he had these awful
Nancy Ferraro: scars up and down his back. So I know that, that there was some trauma.
Nancy Ferraro: There's no doubt in my mind. That had we left him there or sent him
Nancy Ferraro: back, he wouldn't have survived very long. So
Nancy Ferraro: in a way, in a very weird, strange way, I'm very grateful they landed
Nancy Ferraro: with me because I have ESQ behind my name. For
Nancy Ferraro: some reason, when you're an attorney, that scares people. So I
Nancy Ferraro: took full advantage of that. I wrote all my letters on law firm
Nancy Ferraro: letterhead because it gave the
Nancy Ferraro: impression that I had much more knowledge than I did. That's
Nancy Ferraro: okay. You know, I needed to get somewhere for George and I used any
Nancy Ferraro: means that I had at my disposal to make headway for
Nancy Ferraro: him. So in a way, he landed with the right people. How is he
Joanne Lockwood: now? Oh, George. George is living large.
Nancy Ferraro: He lives in a group home with 2 other boys. It is not
Nancy Ferraro: the scary institution that I
Nancy Ferraro: pictured for so many years, and that's the reason I fought it for so long.
Nancy Ferraro: But he goes on outings. He spends all his money at Wawa, which
Nancy Ferraro: here is like heaven for coffee lovers. It's a
Nancy Ferraro: convenience store. He tastes all the flavors. I think one month he
Nancy Ferraro: spent $300 on coffee. I'm like, George, you know, rein it in a little bit,
Nancy Ferraro: right? But he's happy. He goes to day program. He goes on
Nancy Ferraro: outings. He goes to his dad every other weekend. And
Nancy Ferraro: frankly, the world is his oyster. And he's what, 20-something, is he?
Nancy Ferraro: He's now 29.
Joanne Lockwood: So how many years was it that you tried to parent
Joanne Lockwood: him at home? How long did it take you before. You— It was 9
Nancy Ferraro: years. 9 years. Almost to the day. Yes. And part of it
Nancy Ferraro: was I was afraid because he was so little. Every doctor
Nancy Ferraro: since we brought him home said, this child needs to be in an institution. He
Nancy Ferraro: needs more help than you can give him. And frankly, I was doctor shopping
Nancy Ferraro: because I am mother, hear me roar, and I was going to fix
Nancy Ferraro: this. And every doctor that didn't give me the fix, I dismissed as a
Nancy Ferraro: quack. Well, had I listened to those doctors,
Nancy Ferraro: I should have listened to those doctors, but I was not willing to
Nancy Ferraro: at the time. And then The word institution
Nancy Ferraro: scared me because I I was, had this image of these
Nancy Ferraro: horrible places where they tie kids to the bed and I didn't want that. I
Nancy Ferraro: was very frightened that he would get hurt, that he would be mistreated.
Nancy Ferraro: But once we started to actually explore the
Nancy Ferraro: services available and the places, it became a whole
Nancy Ferraro: different story. It's like, why did I not do this for him before? And
Nancy Ferraro: it is really the best decision I ever made for him
Nancy Ferraro: because of the structure they're able to give him because of the way
Nancy Ferraro: they keep them on a schedule. They manage him and
Nancy Ferraro: they, they're professionals and they have an 8-hour shift and then they
Nancy Ferraro: go home. Right. I didn't have an 8-hour shift. I had a 24/7
Nancy Ferraro: shift and was just completely burned out. Look at, think
Joanne Lockwood: of the timeline. You picked him up at 3 or 4. You were able
Joanne Lockwood: to parent him at home for about 9 years. That means he was what, 13,
Joanne Lockwood: 14? I presume at that age, as you said, you, you were getting worried of
Joanne Lockwood: him hurting you, hurting others. He would've been becoming a
Joanne Lockwood: teenage boy, developing strength and, uh, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: his physical, physical strength would've been growing considerably at that point, wouldn't it?
Nancy Ferraro: Yeah. Well, he had strength when he came home. His, when he was 4,
Nancy Ferraro: And he would start raging. Those chemicals kick in. And
Nancy Ferraro: also his muscles were taut, which is not
Nancy Ferraro: normal. Toddlers are supposed to be chubby, right?
Nancy Ferraro: George was not. He was very sinewy. And so when he decided
Nancy Ferraro: to rearrange his furniture and it was nothing,
Nancy Ferraro: he was in a rage, everything would be moved. And then I'd go in later
Nancy Ferraro: and try to move everything back. It was really difficult. He
Nancy Ferraro: had this Herculean strength that was just
Nancy Ferraro: abnormal for a child. And the, yes, the bigger he grew,
Nancy Ferraro: the more frightened we became. I became, I was the one home with
Nancy Ferraro: him. You, you. I think you
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned you are part of a, a community or a network of other
Joanne Lockwood: parents or people who have adopted or brought
Joanne Lockwood: children into the country from Romania or other places.
Joanne Lockwood: Are there other storeys from other, other people of
Joanne Lockwood: similar situations? Shockingly, there
Nancy Ferraro: are more storeys than I imagined. And when I go to conferences and talk
Nancy Ferraro: to parents and realise how much
Nancy Ferraro: violence is produced in these children, and not just George, not just
Nancy Ferraro: children from Romania, not just children with foetal alcohol syndrome,
Nancy Ferraro: children who suffer from certain types of autism.
Nancy Ferraro: Because they have no frustration tolerance and that causes
Nancy Ferraro: violence. And I've seen so many parents who are
Nancy Ferraro: burned out, hanging on by their fingernails. So
Nancy Ferraro: I am really on a mission to reach those parents.
Nancy Ferraro: And I'll be speaking at the largest special needs
Nancy Ferraro: conference in Florida this year. And I hope that is just the beginning
Nancy Ferraro: because Mothers especially, anyone who stood
Nancy Ferraro: in the shoes of motherhood, could be a father, but anyone who's had
Nancy Ferraro: that all-encompassing responsibility and that
Nancy Ferraro: feeling that if I can't fix this, who will?
Nancy Ferraro: They need to hear that message. And people come up to me afterward and of
Nancy Ferraro: course we all cry. We cry because they
Nancy Ferraro: finally feel heard. They finally feel like someone has experienced what
Nancy Ferraro: they're going through right now. And has come out the other side.
Nancy Ferraro: So I really am so purpose-driven
Nancy Ferraro: to get in front of as many parents who have experienced traumatic parenting as
Nancy Ferraro: I can. And this is not just adoptees. This is
Joanne Lockwood: parents, birth, birth parents as well in the US and around the world.
Nancy Ferraro: And funny thing is, parents give birth to foetal alcohol syndrome
Nancy Ferraro: children in the United States as they do all over the world. But of course,
Nancy Ferraro: there's a modicum of shame with that because that means admitting that there
Nancy Ferraro: was alcohol consumption during pregnancy. But we can't hang on that
Nancy Ferraro: because that gets us nowhere. We have something called the
Nancy Ferraro: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Respect Act that works its way through Congress,
Nancy Ferraro: but there has to be conversation. And
Nancy Ferraro: I'm happy that you do this. I know that you do a lot of this
Nancy Ferraro: because fear hides in the darkness, right? You
Nancy Ferraro: have to bring issues out into the open in order
Nancy Ferraro: for people to talk about it, remove the shame, start
Nancy Ferraro: connecting with each other. Yeah, it is. And shame is one of those emotions that
Joanne Lockwood: has no purpose really. It's an internal thing, isn't it? It's, you need to
Joanne Lockwood: lose it and find action, find purpose. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: reclaim. But I'm guessing if your child
Joanne Lockwood: is suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome, you as a mother
Joanne Lockwood: birth mother would still be going through some of the crisis of, of your
Joanne Lockwood: alcohol dependency. And I'm assuming that alcohol dependency would
Joanne Lockwood: lead to homelessness, joblessness, relationship issues, lots of
Joanne Lockwood: other things, and probably maybe even drugs and other, other, other dependencies.
Joanne Lockwood: So you, you're probably not in the best place regardless of, of dealing with the
Joanne Lockwood: child. You've got some other challenges to deal with in life your own for yourself
Joanne Lockwood: as well, haven't you? Yes. I, I'm,
Nancy Ferraro: ashamed to tell you, but I'm not. It's in the book. My life is an
Nancy Ferraro: open book. Believe I was actively trying to kill myself with alcohol
Nancy Ferraro: because it was numbing. And I would hear that bus, the
Nancy Ferraro: short bus coming down the gravel driveway. We had a 50-foot
Nancy Ferraro: gravel driveway. And when I heard those bus tyres
Nancy Ferraro: start down and the crunching, it was
Nancy Ferraro: amazing the ability I developed to open a bottle of wine
Nancy Ferraro: by banging it against the wall. I mean, I was a master at it
Nancy Ferraro: because it was so common. So you're getting the cork out by—. Oh, I'm good
Nancy Ferraro: at it. I could show you how to do that. But I was so frightened
Nancy Ferraro: of what was coming in the door. He could be angelic or he could be
Nancy Ferraro: come coming, in attacking me. I never knew what was coming.
Nancy Ferraro: So yes, there was a lot of destructive behaviour and I'm not
Nancy Ferraro: proud of it. But it was the only way I knew to cope at the
Nancy Ferraro: time. So you've sorted
Joanne Lockwood: yourself out. You uh, found, found
Joanne Lockwood: a better way without alcohol. Have you, are you now 10 years sober, 20 years
Joanne Lockwood: sober? No, what I discovered is I'm not really an
Nancy Ferraro: alcoholic because I've, I went through the process and
Nancy Ferraro: discovered that I can have a cocktail and not and have an off button.
Nancy Ferraro: It was a response to trauma. And just like anything,
Nancy Ferraro: depression, it was a response to trauma. And of course, it took a
Nancy Ferraro: few years to unwind from that because you're so
Nancy Ferraro: used to being in panic mode, in survival mode, that when you're
Nancy Ferraro: not, you kind of create something because you're so used
Nancy Ferraro: to— it's what you know, right? The trauma, the
Nancy Ferraro: conflict is what you know. So it took me quite some time to cycle
Nancy Ferraro: out of it, but there is light on the other side.
Joanne Lockwood: So you've written this book about your life, I
Joanne Lockwood: suppose. And I think you said before we went
Joanne Lockwood: live, it's about being able to change the life of
Joanne Lockwood: one other person to have a more positive outcome. So it's about creating that
Joanne Lockwood: awareness, isn't it? So when did you write that? How long ago did you write
Joanne Lockwood: the book? I started writing it. About
Nancy Ferraro: 10 years ago. And I actually went to a
Nancy Ferraro: pitch conference in New York City and I was asked for a book proposal by
Nancy Ferraro: a major publisher. And I had no idea what a book proposal was,
Nancy Ferraro: let alone any of that. I had 10 pages and an idea. And
Nancy Ferraro: my older son said, I'm not over my childhood with George, mom. You
Nancy Ferraro: can't put this out. And I said, okay, put it away.
Nancy Ferraro: And then a few years ago, I had been stalking a writer's
Nancy Ferraro: retreat. I knew I was going to write the book. I just didn't know what
Nancy Ferraro: I was going to do with it. And I got into the finals of this
Nancy Ferraro: national writing competition. And again, I called my older son. I said,
Nancy Ferraro: honey, I won't do it if you don't want me to. And he said, no,
Nancy Ferraro: mom, go for it. I'm proud of you. I said, okay, honey, don't read the
Nancy Ferraro: book. And so as far
Nancy Ferraro: as I know, my older son has still not read the book. His partners read
Nancy Ferraro: portions of it to him, but I feel like it did a pretty good
Nancy Ferraro: job of protecting his story, my older son, cuz it's his
Nancy Ferraro: storey to tell. But yes, it was a long time
Nancy Ferraro: in the making. So the book is called When the Bow Breaks. That
Joanne Lockwood: implies from the title that something
Joanne Lockwood: broke the bow. Exactly. So what was the breaking
Joanne Lockwood: point? Was that when you had to put George into care, or was there a
Joanne Lockwood: point in there where everything exploded? There was the
Nancy Ferraro: moment of realisation when you can no
Nancy Ferraro: longer hide in denial, when you have to adjust your
Nancy Ferraro: expectations for your child and you have to— I hate
Nancy Ferraro: to call it a come to Jesus moment, but it really was. We came to
Nancy Ferraro: the point where it was impossible to keep George in our home any
Nancy Ferraro: longer. Because he was big, he was violent, and we knew that we
Nancy Ferraro: had to place him. And that's the moment when my bell broke,
Nancy Ferraro: because at that moment I had to redefine my relationship with
Nancy Ferraro: my child. And it was heartbreaking. It was
Nancy Ferraro: devastating because I had to admit that I could not fix it.
Nancy Ferraro: But it was also empowering because I believe that asking
Nancy Ferraro: for that help was not a sign of weakness. It was
Nancy Ferraro: absolutely courageous and important.. And I want other parents
Nancy Ferraro: to know that asking for help is not a sign of weakness. You're not
Nancy Ferraro: meant to go through this alone. We're not meant to do anything alone in this
Nancy Ferraro: life. And so the moment that you step out and
Nancy Ferraro: you ask for help, that is almost sacred. You used a
Joanne Lockwood: phrase when you were, when you first met George out in Romania,
Joanne Lockwood: where your womb, was it your womb or your
Joanne Lockwood: parent motherhood? Just enveloped him.
Joanne Lockwood: Many might say that you went above and
Joanne Lockwood: beyond reasonable expectations in sticking with this. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: most people would have, even if you were the birth parent,
Joanne Lockwood: people might have said you would have, you'd have every right to hang
Joanne Lockwood: on, step back from this, but to be an adoptive parent, adoptive parent
Joanne Lockwood: from child from overseas, adoptive parent from who's
Joanne Lockwood: adopted a child where there's a clear breakdown in
Joanne Lockwood: communication as as to, the expectation and the needs of this child.
Joanne Lockwood: Many might say that you, you tackle something
Joanne Lockwood: beyond any reasonable expectations and you've, you've done amazing to
Joanne Lockwood: keep doing that. There really wasn't a choice because I knew what would
Nancy Ferraro: happen to George if we sent him back. And the other more
Nancy Ferraro: important decision was, what am I teaching my
Nancy Ferraro: older son? Am I teaching him that people are expendable?
Nancy Ferraro: And then when they get inconvenient, you just jettison them? That
Nancy Ferraro: is not something I wanted him to grow up with. And I
Nancy Ferraro: knew that, you know, it's like being stuck with a sword. Do you leave it
Nancy Ferraro: in or pull it out? I knew that if I sent George
Nancy Ferraro: back to Romania, the psychological impact
Nancy Ferraro: on my older son would have been 'Hey, people are expendable. I can
Nancy Ferraro: just do whatever I want with no repercussions.' I'm not raising that kind of a
Nancy Ferraro: human, and I'm so glad I did not because he's turned into an amazing
Nancy Ferraro: human being. Yeah. And part of your family, your son,
Joanne Lockwood: your younger son. Yeah, exactly. I take
Joanne Lockwood: my hat off to you if I was wearing one. No, it's something
Joanne Lockwood: amazing. I'm just trying to explore the
Joanne Lockwood: thoughts going through my head. You not only have you written a
Joanne Lockwood: book, you speak at stages, you mentioned speaking in conferences this
Joanne Lockwood: year, but you also travel the world doing this. That's the goal. I haven't travelled
Nancy Ferraro: the world yet. So far I'm just in Florida, but I am
Nancy Ferraro: doing virtual speaking and that's going to be the focus of this year.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But are, I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: the one, one side of this is the foetal alcohol syndrome, which is obviously an
Joanne Lockwood: ongoing problem. It's not gonna go away anytime soon in the US
Joanne Lockwood: and around the world. But are are are there, there, there still children
Joanne Lockwood: like George living in orphanages,
Joanne Lockwood: being in, in worlds where they're not getting the care in their native
Joanne Lockwood: country or even, even in the US? Is that still a problem with the adoption
Joanne Lockwood: system? I'm almost frightened because I do some
Nancy Ferraro: work with the African Orphan Educational Foundation. And I support
Nancy Ferraro: a pre-law student there in Kenya, and I do not
Nancy Ferraro: even want to ask the question because she's a very bright girl
Nancy Ferraro: and she was about to be sold off into marriage. And had I not sponsored
Nancy Ferraro: her, she would've had a horrible fate because of the
Nancy Ferraro: poverty. And so my question that I'm almost afraid to
Nancy Ferraro: ask the founder is what happens to the special needs children?
Nancy Ferraro: Because these are typical smart intelligent,
Nancy Ferraro: driven kids who are having trouble just feeding themselves, let alone getting
Nancy Ferraro: an education. So I suppose that's the next hurdle. I
Nancy Ferraro: have to brace myself for it, but yeah, I'm sure there are. I know
Nancy Ferraro: there's, there are horrific things going on around the world, but Mother
Nancy Ferraro: Teresa said, you can't change the world. You just change your corner.
Nancy Ferraro: And I'm trying to change my corner. Because there are still areas of the world
Joanne Lockwood: that are in poverty. There's drought,
Joanne Lockwood: there's malnutrition that causes developmental
Joanne Lockwood: diseases, lack of vitamin D, rickets, bone structure,
Joanne Lockwood: poor diet leads to brain injury as well.
Joanne Lockwood: So there is still going on in the world, maybe not in
Joanne Lockwood: Romania, but maybe in other, other parts of the world, other continents
Joanne Lockwood: where certain regimes are not investing
Joanne Lockwood: in healthcare and child support and growth that we may expect in the
Joanne Lockwood: Western world. Of course, of course there is. One,
Nancy Ferraro: what do we do? How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
Nancy Ferraro: So yeah, yeah, I, I know it sounds very,
Nancy Ferraro: yeah, one talk at a time. So that's,
Nancy Ferraro: that's my goal. Nancy, this has been really
Joanne Lockwood: enlightening and heart-wrenching and just to hear the storey and
Joanne Lockwood: I'm 4,000 miles away from you and I'm, I'm feeling really quite, quite
Joanne Lockwood: moved. By your passion and, and, and the way you've stepped up for
Joanne Lockwood: this. And it, as you said, what else could I do? That
Joanne Lockwood: in its own right, that sentence is, is, is, is exactly what
Joanne Lockwood: makes you a strong and, and capable person
Joanne Lockwood: who, who's taken this challenge on. And it sounds really patronizing, but I admire what
Joanne Lockwood: you've done and I admire what you continue to do, how you're spreading the word.
Nancy Ferraro: But aren't we all? We all have challenges. And you
Nancy Ferraro: don't realise how strong you are until you get 40
Nancy Ferraro: yards away from it and look back, right? So we all have a story. Everyone
Nancy Ferraro: faces their own challenges, but everyone's got something.
Joanne Lockwood: It's all relative. I know. Everybody's got something. We all have. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: So Nancy, how how can, can people get ahold of you? I'm sure everyone's going
Joanne Lockwood: to want to reach out and connect with you about this. Thank you.
Nancy Ferraro: It's very exciting. I do have a link, Meet with Nancy. It's
Nancy Ferraro: http://meetwithnancy.com.
Nancy Ferraro: //meetwithnancy.me. And I'm happy to chat with anyone.
Nancy Ferraro: It's a video conference and a short get-to-know-you meeting.
Nancy Ferraro: And anyone who wants more information, I'm happy to talk with. The book is available.
Nancy Ferraro: It's called When the Bough Breaks: A Mother's Story of Carnage,
Nancy Ferraro: Courage, and the Triumph of Faith. And it's available at, of
Nancy Ferraro: course, Barnes Noble, Amazon, everywhere books are sold.
Nancy Ferraro: But I would love, love, love to hear other mother storeys and I
Nancy Ferraro: welcome the connection. And you're on the usual places like LinkedIn
Joanne Lockwood: and I'll put all the details. Yes, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on
Nancy Ferraro: Facebook. Yes, absolutely. There is a support group on
Nancy Ferraro: Facebook called When the Bough Bends. And so there might be some good
Nancy Ferraro: resources for parents there that I run. So invite you
Nancy Ferraro: to connect there as well. And people could join from all over the world.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not purely a North America, US. Absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely. Fantastic. And Nancy is N-A-N-C-Y Ferraro, F-E-R-R-A-R-O.
Nancy Ferraro: Correct. So if anyone's looking for that, perfect. Reach out.
Joanne Lockwood: Nancy, thank you so much. It has been my
Nancy Ferraro: honor. Thank you. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear
Joanne Lockwood: and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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