Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 216. With
Joanne Lockwood: the title Writing Belonging into Being.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Michelle Lee
Joanne Lockwood: Steiner. Michelle is a writer, speaker,
Joanne Lockwood: photographer, and paraeducator who uses her lived
Joanne Lockwood: experience of a learning disability to encourage, empower,
Joanne Lockwood: and educate people with and without disabilities.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked Michelle to describe her superpower, she said that it is her
Joanne Lockwood: writing and photography. Writing gives her a voice
Joanne Lockwood: and photography helps her capture the details that other people often
Joanne Lockwood: miss. Hello, Michelle. Welcome to the show.
Michelle Steiner: Hey, Jo, it's great to be here today. I'm excited to have this
Michelle Steiner: conversation. Yes. And we were chit-chatting away just now.
Joanne Lockwood: You are in the US somewhere, is that right? Yes, I
Michelle Steiner: live in Pennsylvania. Yep.
Michelle Steiner: Wow. There's a big famous— was it Glen Miller, Pennsylvania 65,000?
Michelle Steiner: Right now it is, it's actually a little warmer than it's been.
Michelle Steiner: It was snowing before, but yeah, it is like
Michelle Steiner: 7:30. Yeah, it's early and it's a
Michelle Steiner: little bit warmer than it has been in the past couple days. So my
Joanne Lockwood: geography's not very good. So you are north of New York on the East Coast,
Joanne Lockwood: is that right? Yes, we are. We're about
Michelle Steiner: 7 to 8 hours away from New York. So I believe,
Michelle Steiner: yeah. Is that in the car or is that in the plane? That would be
Michelle Steiner: in the car. In a car. In a car. We've gone there many times,
Michelle Steiner: but yeah, to New York City on trips and everything. So, yep.
Joanne Lockwood: It's fascinating. One hidden benefit for me recording this podcast is I'm learning a
Joanne Lockwood: whole lot more about the US geography and where things are because
Joanne Lockwood: I have guests from all over the states and all over the world. Right. Yeah.
Michelle Steiner: That's awesome. Yeah. So I know I've, I
Joanne Lockwood: think I've had another guest from Pennsylvania recently and certainly New York State and
Joanne Lockwood: Texas and Florida and California. So
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, if you listen to this and you're from a part of the States, then
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I'd love to hear from you as well. Anyway, Michelle,
Joanne Lockwood: reading through the notes and, you know, I, I, I intimated it as part of
Joanne Lockwood: the introduction there. You're quite open about the fact you have a learning disability.
Joanne Lockwood: And my understanding is that from a very early age, people had
Joanne Lockwood: limiting expectations of you and almost sort of said, well,
Joanne Lockwood: Michelle won't achieve. So tell us a bit about that. Well, I've
Michelle Steiner: had a lot of people all throughout my life not thinking that I was going
Michelle Steiner: to accomplish a lot. I can remember even being like when I was
Michelle Steiner: very young in kindergarten, I was diagnosed with having a learning disability
Michelle Steiner: and I can just remember a lot of times, well, that was one of their
Michelle Steiner: first fears that I was going to develop learned helplessness. Even my early teachers are
Michelle Steiner: like, well, we I've got to really encourage Michelle to do things because she needs
Michelle Steiner: to not develop that. She needs to know what she can do. And I can
Michelle Steiner: realise that was not only going to be something because of my own
Michelle Steiner: thoughts about myself, but also what other people were going to start to think
Michelle Steiner: too. That also really became a big theme whenever
Michelle Steiner: I was in high school for what I was going to do after high school,
Michelle Steiner: because I knew that I wanted to go to college. I was still scared, still
Michelle Steiner: doubting myself, even though I was doing well in my schooling.
Michelle Steiner: But I had a learning support teacher who told me, "I don't think you can
Michelle Steiner: go to college because of your difficulties with math," and she
Michelle Steiner: suggested a trade school, even though nothing interested me. I
Michelle Steiner: thought, "Okay, I'm going to go forward," and I had to get tested for a
Michelle Steiner: learning disability again to get accommodations at college. And
Michelle Steiner: it was during that time that the psychiatrist who evaluated
Michelle Steiner: me— never been a— I've never been a great test taker, and he said,
Michelle Steiner: 'Based on these scores, you're most likely not going to go beyond community college.'
Michelle Steiner: I get to community college and I faced even more stigma with people
Michelle Steiner: limiting beliefs. I can remember when I asked for
Michelle Steiner: a calculator in a math class, I said, 'Oh no, we use our brains in
Michelle Steiner: this class.' And my advisor said, 'I think
Michelle Steiner: you're going to have limited job choices whenever you graduate.'
Michelle Steiner: She said, 'Well, with your difficulties with math, you're not going to
Michelle Steiner: know how much paper to use if your students do an
Michelle Steiner: art project. And she wasn't entirely wrong about the
Michelle Steiner: difficulties I was going to have, but I've had to learn
Michelle Steiner: it's about how I plan out for them. So
Michelle Steiner: sometimes I might make a mistake. Sometimes I might have to double-check something or have
Michelle Steiner: some, or ask somebody, hey, did I get this correct or not? But
Michelle Steiner: that was difficult because I thought, well, I would like to have a job someday.
Michelle Steiner: And that was something that really scared me.. And I can't even
Michelle Steiner: remember after I got my bachelor's degree, I had a
Michelle Steiner: psychiatrist, um, I had to go in because I'm, I'm not able to drive and
Michelle Steiner: I needed, we had a transportation system specifically for people
Michelle Steiner: with disabilities, but you had to have documentation why you couldn't drive. And
Michelle Steiner: I needed an updated form and they asked me on there, well, what are some
Michelle Steiner: things that you would like to do? And I just decided, okay, I'm going to
Michelle Steiner: talk about what my dream job would be. Maybe a caseworker, maybe, uh, doing
Michelle Steiner: things with writing and, and writing for news and
Michelle Steiner: preparing news briefs. Once again, I've had that limitation
Michelle Steiner: people put on me that based upon my
Michelle Steiner: testing scores, that it would be on— all this will be beyond my
Michelle Steiner: capabilities. And we're just going to not even put that as a recommendation for a
Michelle Steiner: job. And I find that really funny after I've gotten things published and I have
Michelle Steiner: a blog that this is what experts have told me
Michelle Steiner: that I could not do. I also had people who
Michelle Steiner: told me, well, I don't know if you're going to meet somebody with having a
Michelle Steiner: disability. And that was also a really hard one too, because I always thought,
Michelle Steiner: well, maybe I would like to get married, maybe I would like to meet somebody.
Michelle Steiner: And I have had people that have rejected me for having one. I
Michelle Steiner: can remember my ex breaking up with me saying, I think you could drive if
Michelle Steiner: you wanted to, and I'm tired of taking you places. And I just finally
Michelle Steiner: got to that point where I thought, I'm really probably not going to meet
Michelle Steiner: anybody. And I I did actually, I have met my husband
Michelle Steiner: and we've been married for 10 years and we'll celebrate
Michelle Steiner: 11 years this June. Wow. That's
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating. You mentioned the difficulty with mathematics and the fact that you don't drive
Joanne Lockwood: and other things. Could you just tell me what
Joanne Lockwood: your specific developmental differences are?
Michelle Steiner: Sure. I have dyscalculia, which is a math disability. I
Michelle Steiner: have difficulty with how numbers work. And it might be, might
Michelle Steiner: be different than what a lot of people might think with that. A lot of
Michelle Steiner: times people think dyscalculia, you must see numbers backwards,
Michelle Steiner: and that's not the truth. I have difficulty with how they work. Some
Michelle Steiner: visual things with not being able to read the face of an analogue clock. I
Michelle Steiner: can see the numbers, I can see the lines, but it just does not make
Michelle Steiner: sense to me. I also have trouble with budgeting,
Michelle Steiner: counting back, just, just with different things with
Michelle Steiner: counting. I also have difficulty with reading a ruler and I confuse
Michelle Steiner: my my right from my left. I also have visual perception issues, but that's
Michelle Steiner: in my brain, not in my eyes. So that makes like
Michelle Steiner: my reaction time and driving affected with that.
Michelle Steiner: My hand coordination isn't great. In fact, I blink every time a ball
Michelle Steiner: comes in my field of vision or something like that does. So gym class was
Michelle Steiner: a nightmare for me growing up. And I also have limited
Michelle Steiner: hand dexterity, and that was not diagnosed until I was an
Michelle Steiner: adult. And what that is, is all the light bulbs went off after that
Michelle Steiner: point, because before when things would fall out of my hands, people thought,
Michelle Steiner: well, you're clumsy. And that's not true. And the
Michelle Steiner: handwriting, people would kind of shame me because I had bad handwriting
Michelle Steiner: growing up, that I was like lazy or sloppy or careless.
Michelle Steiner: I even had someone say I looked like a serial killer. And it turns out
Michelle Steiner: that that's part of it. And it also was why I couldn't
Michelle Steiner: open up, use a cans and jars. I have a
Michelle Steiner: jar opener and I also have a can opener that's electric, not
Michelle Steiner: a manual one. I'm going to look at a manual one. It's like trying to
Michelle Steiner: operate a spaceship. And that's why I couldn't unlock
Michelle Steiner: my front door to our home. And that, that also inspired my first article
Michelle Steiner: getting published because of that. Wow. Fascinating. Are you left-handed by
Joanne Lockwood: chance? Nope. Right-handed. You're right-handed. Okay. Cause I'm left-handed and
Joanne Lockwood: I can't tell my left, my right either. And I, Yeah, I have double
Joanne Lockwood: thinking. Someone says turn left, I go, left, is that left or is that? So
Joanne Lockwood: it takes me 3
Joanne Lockwood: seconds every single time. Yeah, it's not uncommon, not knowing left and
Joanne Lockwood: right. I'm pretty bad at any binary choices like that
Joanne Lockwood: where it's sort of, okay, up and down's okay. Up and down for some
Joanne Lockwood: reason, up and down, but left and right isn't. But there are other things where
Joanne Lockwood: I go, is it this or is it that? Is it that? Yeah,
Michelle Steiner: exactly. So that's not just a you thing. That's a common thing. That is, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, not very— Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I
Michelle Steiner: mean, yeah, a lot of these things are common for other people too. I
Michelle Steiner: mean, it's 1 in 5 people are diagnosed with having a learning disability
Michelle Steiner: or some kind of neurodivergence. It's common. But a
Michelle Steiner: lot of people don't think it's common. A lot of people think, well, that's not
Michelle Steiner: a lot of people, or it can't be that way,
Michelle Steiner: especially with having an inclusive practise like design and everything.
Michelle Steiner: A lot of times people might shame other people to thinking,
Michelle Steiner: well, people are just lazy now. So that's why we have an analogue clock, or
Michelle Steiner: that's why we have people don't want to write
Michelle Steiner: in cursive. I mean, that's another really hot topic that, especially in
Michelle Steiner: our state, that has come up with having a law with the students have to
Michelle Steiner: be taught that. But I think they should be exposed
Michelle Steiner: to the information, taught it. But if they're not getting it, let's move on to
Michelle Steiner: something else. That's just my own opinion though. Exactly. Otherwise, all they're doing
Joanne Lockwood: is shaming you by saying you can't. Let's sit down and say,
Joanne Lockwood: well, what can you do then? And how can we make that work? Yeah,
Michelle Steiner: exactly. Yeah. Teach it, move on if it doesn't work.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, exactly. If you need to learn about budgeting, if you need
Joanne Lockwood: to learn about basic, you know, putting fuel
Joanne Lockwood: in a gas in your gas tank to know how much to put in there,
Joanne Lockwood: you need, you need a different way of working things out. Don't you? Yeah,
Michelle Steiner: exactly. I agree 100%. Does technology help? I mean, we're living in a world
Joanne Lockwood: now. Which is vastly different from that you grew up. So you've got a phone
Joanne Lockwood: in your pocket, you've got all your handbags, right? You've got AI, you've got
Joanne Lockwood: voice recognition, you've got your Alexa, you've got your Google stuff, right?
Joanne Lockwood: Does that make it easier? Does that make it easier? Absolutely. It has
Michelle Steiner: really improved my life with technology. I can remember even
Michelle Steiner: in the beginnings when I learned how to type, it took me an extra— it
Michelle Steiner: took me a full year of typing, not just one semester,
Michelle Steiner: but That was the start of beginning to be able to— people could read what
Michelle Steiner: I wanted to say and that helped. And now we even have dictation software
Michelle Steiner: and I sometimes use that because sometimes my hands will— it's harder to type
Michelle Steiner: or I'll make more mistakes. So sometimes I might just use dictation software. And I
Michelle Steiner: think when we get another computer, I'm like, okay, we're going to get a Chromebook
Michelle Steiner: or we're going to get something that we can definitely do that. So I can—
Michelle Steiner: I just don't have to do that on my tablet, which I still love. But
Michelle Steiner: that, you know, that, that's helpful. It's helpful to have battery-operated jar
Michelle Steiner: of potatoes. Openers and having a can opener that's
Michelle Steiner: electric that I don't have to have a manual if my hands can't do it.
Michelle Steiner: Having raised keys, that can be helpful too, to give me a little bit
Michelle Steiner: more stability when I open up a door or with the
Michelle Steiner: key. Just all kinds of— just having all those accommodations, having
Michelle Steiner: a digital watch, having a Fitbit. Not only can I tell how many steps that
Michelle Steiner: I've gotten, but I can tell you what time it is. I don't have to
Michelle Steiner: go and try to look at a clock. And that way I don't have to
Michelle Steiner: ask people, oh, what time is it? And they can say, oh, there's a clock
Michelle Steiner: over there. I'm like, well, yeah, I can see there's a clock over there, but
Michelle Steiner: obviously if I can't tell what time it is. So I think that's
Michelle Steiner: helpful. But there's so much even more. And that's some of the beauty that a
Michelle Steiner: lot of people may not realise that in our, in the States,
Michelle Steiner: we have the Americans with Disabilities Act. And there's a part of
Michelle Steiner: that. Well, actually what the whole act is to make things accessible for people in
Michelle Steiner: the community that have disabilities. So when they go into a public
Michelle Steiner: place, you can have seating or you can have an elevator
Michelle Steiner: instead of using stairs. I mean, it's not a perfect one by any means
Michelle Steiner: and it's one of those things, but the beauty is this helps benefit
Michelle Steiner: everybody, everyone, not just folks who have disabilities. So you might have a
Michelle Steiner: door that's automatic and that might be great, especially it's great
Michelle Steiner: if you're in a wheelchair, but it's also nice if a mom comes in and
Michelle Steiner: has a stroller and she can just press the button and the door opens.
Michelle Steiner: Or it can be helpful if you're somebody just had, you're walking out of the
Michelle Steiner: store and you have a lot of bags in your hands. That's helpful. Elevators are
Michelle Steiner: great. I mean, a lot of times people will wonder, well, why am I using
Michelle Steiner: that? Because I can't use an escalator because I don't know when I get on
Michelle Steiner: or off. And that was an issue during COVID They didn't want to have— there
Michelle Steiner: was, there was a sign, and I wrote about this, that was just for people—
Michelle Steiner: that the elevator was just for people that had strollers or
Michelle Steiner: disabilities. And I'm thinking, well, I have a disability. People can't see it
Michelle Steiner: though. So, but everybody can use a lot of these services. And I think that
Michelle Steiner: that's the thing with technology. This is not just something that benefits
Michelle Steiner: person that is disabled, it also benefits somebody,
Michelle Steiner: anybody. Yeah. Are there things in
Joanne Lockwood: life that frustrate you? And what do I mean by that? We all live
Joanne Lockwood: in our own mind. We live with our own capabilities. Do you
Joanne Lockwood: often think, I wish I could do that, or do you just accept that your
Joanne Lockwood: life is as is? There are things you just don't do and things you do
Joanne Lockwood: do. I think I've gotten to a point where I have accepted
Michelle Steiner: that there's things I can't do and I find ways around it to be able
Michelle Steiner: to deal with that, to be able I'm able to live. And that really does
Michelle Steiner: work for me. A lot of that with the technology, like, okay, I can't read
Michelle Steiner: the Facebook clock. That's fine. I'll have a digital watch on.
Michelle Steiner: I know that I cannot do math and I'm okay with that. And all
Michelle Steiner: the kids know, or will find out, that I can help you with anything at
Michelle Steiner: work, anything at school, except for math. And I'm okay with that.
Michelle Steiner: And sometimes I get some reactions like, "Oh, what do you mean you can't do
Michelle Steiner: math? You're a teacher." And I think that brings that humility that there's just some
Michelle Steiner: things that people can't do. I've also
Michelle Steiner: found that I'm all right with it, but when I run
Michelle Steiner: into other people that aren't okay with that, that's where I
Michelle Steiner: think more of the disability happens. People are saying, well, what do you mean you
Michelle Steiner: can't tell your left from your right? Or why can't you do
Michelle Steiner: math? Or why can't you— can't somebody just teach
Michelle Steiner: you? Or why can't you drive? And they,
Michelle Steiner: they shame that, or they, they really It goes beyond just being
Michelle Steiner: curious and it gets to that point where it's almost like bullying or
Michelle Steiner: just thinking, or nice people who think, well, we can fix you. You just need
Michelle Steiner: to learn. We can, we can show you that way. And that leads to
Michelle Steiner: disappointment for that person. And it also leads to disappointment for me because
Michelle Steiner: somebody can't accept you for who I am. And I also
Michelle Steiner: found though that when I engage in activities that I
Michelle Steiner: love, I don't feel like I have a disability. I feel empowered. So
Michelle Steiner: when I'm out and I'm taking pictures and I don't have a ride to get
Michelle Steiner: somewhere, which is, which happens, and that's okay too. I've made
Michelle Steiner: my life where I live in a central location. I'm very blessed to have a
Michelle Steiner: husband that can take me to work and a great coworker that could take me
Michelle Steiner: home. And I'm able to walk places, but I get
Michelle Steiner: that chance to literally stop and smell the roses when I don't have
Michelle Steiner: a ride. And I get to take pictures of flowers
Michelle Steiner: and notice details that other people would miss. So I can get in there and
Michelle Steiner: take a picture of a flower and people say, wow, you bring out those details
Michelle Steiner: that I would miss. And I realise in my life
Michelle Steiner: that if it's one of those things that, that there's so much beauty that I
Michelle Steiner: would miss if I was driving in a car, I wouldn't get to take that
Michelle Steiner: picture of that flower. And I started to realise in my own life, there's so
Michelle Steiner: much beauty that I would miss with having a disability.
Michelle Steiner: If I did not get that chance to experience so many
Michelle Steiner: things that it has taught me. And also with writing and with reading,
Michelle Steiner: I don't feel like I have a disability when I read or I write. I
Michelle Steiner: feel empowered and it gives me that voice. So even though you've
Joanne Lockwood: got dyscalculia, you still understand what numbers
Joanne Lockwood: are, right? You still understand. So if I put 2 apples on the
Joanne Lockwood: table, you, you'd know there were 2 apples, would they? Yes, I can. I have
Michelle Steiner: a very, I have a basic understanding of math, but beyond a
Michelle Steiner: basic elementary school level, I am not.
Michelle Steiner: Yeah, that, that's where it pretty much ends at a very basic level. So
Joanne Lockwood: if you went out and took 5 photographs and someone said, how many photographs did
Joanne Lockwood: you take? You'd say I took 5, or would you just say, I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: how many I just took? Well, generally I take a lot
Michelle Steiner: of stuff, so I can't tell you how many I took or how many
Michelle Steiner: made the, made the cut for if I'm going to post something,
Michelle Steiner: but, um, Yeah, that might be something I would have to count unless I only
Michelle Steiner: took like a few that day, but mostly I take a lot more than
Michelle Steiner: that. Yeah. I'd have to think about it for a second. Yeah. You're
Joanne Lockwood: not limited in your understanding of numbers and numeracy. You're just, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, beyond basic school and beyond basic
Joanne Lockwood: counting. Yeah, exactly. You must
Joanne Lockwood: be quite relieved that photography's moved on because, you know, I look back When I
Joanne Lockwood: got into photography in the, when I was 7 or 8 years old, it was
Joanne Lockwood: all manual dials and you had to set the shutter speed and the f-stops and
Joanne Lockwood: things like that. Now you just go click, don't you? Exactly. And I did not
Michelle Steiner: get into it at that point because of that complicated process. I, well, part
Michelle Steiner: of it, I mean, I was also a lot younger too, but now it's, it's
Michelle Steiner: as simple as taking, I mean, I do have a nice camera, which we use
Michelle Steiner: sometimes, but once again, we're getting the numbers. So when I put the memory card
Michelle Steiner: in, it all thinks in numbers and I'm like, this is confusing. And. I
Michelle Steiner: like having the digital, like with the phone. And I also like
Michelle Steiner: using my tablet with that because I'm able to take a picture and it fits
Michelle Steiner: right in my bag and I can just take one real
Michelle Steiner: simple and it's convenient. You just go in, you see something and you just take
Michelle Steiner: out your phone or that, and you, you're able to capture that image in there.
Michelle Steiner: So I love being able to do that. So it has changed too. And that's
Michelle Steiner: also making that accessible to other people, maybe even people who think I'm not
Michelle Steiner: a photographer. Well, just take the picture. You never know. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: a fairly impressive website. Did you design that yourself or co-author
Joanne Lockwood: it? I have a template, but that was, that's me who does
Michelle Steiner: the designing and puts the pictures and the colours
Michelle Steiner: and writes it and maintains that. But thank you. Yeah, it's fabulous.
Joanne Lockwood: You've got some lovely photographs there. I think there's a beautiful one of a
Joanne Lockwood: yellow butterfly and a purple flower, isn't there? There's a
Joanne Lockwood: really striking way you capture that difference in colours and the Some of
Joanne Lockwood: the landscapes you got as well, the sunsets are quite impactful
Joanne Lockwood: and striking, aren't they? Thank you so
Michelle Steiner: much. So do you, do you go out specifically to take photographs or
Joanne Lockwood: do you, uh, you just happen, happen to take a good shot when you're out?
Michelle Steiner: It depends on the day or the, or the year. Sometimes my husband and I
Michelle Steiner: will travel to a botanical garden and I'll definitely take a lot of pictures
Michelle Steiner: of flowers. Right now we're having a lot of orchid shows and I love being
Michelle Steiner: able to do that. So sometimes we'll go to museums and it's that, that's a
Michelle Steiner: little more specific. I'll be a little more like, okay, I definitely
Michelle Steiner: have a lot out there, but sometimes I might just be out on a
Michelle Steiner: walk and I'll be going to the gym or I'll be going to grab a
Michelle Steiner: cup of coffee or running a few errands. And I might see a
Michelle Steiner: rose that in one of the neighbourhoods that I know is blooming, or just sometimes
Michelle Steiner: it's a surprise or in the summertime, we'll see a lot of butterflies and I
Michelle Steiner: might just capture, I'll see that butterfly and I get that chance to capture it.
Michelle Steiner: And sometimes it comes in unexpected places. I can remember. In the early
Michelle Steiner: days, I would have— I had a moth that was on our main street on
Michelle Steiner: the sidewalk, and I got to capture that picture of that moth.
Michelle Steiner: Or last summer, I was on my way to the gym and there was a
Michelle Steiner: beautiful moth laying on our sidewalk, so I got a chance to take a picture
Michelle Steiner: of that. Sometimes it might be a flower that's
Michelle Steiner: just growing, or somebody has some really neat decorations in their
Michelle Steiner: yard for, for some holidays. We don't get as much towards winter.
Michelle Steiner: We have pretty cold winters, but I'm looking forward to spring.
Michelle Steiner: I definitely love all the flowers that start to bloom and we just get to
Michelle Steiner: see how things change. And sometimes we'll get some winter shots too,
Michelle Steiner: but sometimes it's planned, but other times there's just an unexpected
Michelle Steiner: surprise. And I always love capturing those. In addition to you talking
Joanne Lockwood: about technology just now, do you think the world is becoming more aware? I
Joanne Lockwood: go back to when I was at school a long time ago, and probably even
Joanne Lockwood: when you were growing up, as a young person, there was very
Joanne Lockwood: little understanding around neurodiversity,
Joanne Lockwood: dyslexia, dyscalculia, ASD, ADHD, all these various terms that
Joanne Lockwood: people go— everyone knows about today. If you go on TikTok,
Joanne Lockwood: everyone, everyone's fully aware. Go back 20, 30 years, people
Joanne Lockwood: just weren't aware, were they? No one's fault, they just
Joanne Lockwood: weren't. Right. People were not aware of a lot of things with that. Even when
Michelle Steiner: I was diagnosed with a learning disability, it was a blanket term. Nobody
Michelle Steiner: said dyscalculia. No, I mean, even today
Michelle Steiner: it's specific learning disability, but if you have it in math, that
Michelle Steiner: is dyscalculia. People didn't know about that. We certainly didn't know
Michelle Steiner: about autism as much as we do now. I can look back on my classes
Michelle Steiner: growing up and I had students in learning support that didn't
Michelle Steiner: have learning disabilities. They had autism. I mean, just with some of the behaviours
Michelle Steiner: and nobody knew what really to do with that. People
Michelle Steiner: definitely were not as accepting of other people that had that. It was
Michelle Steiner: not considered to be acceptable to have that. People would
Michelle Steiner: tell me, oh, maybe you don't want to talk about having that. And there's that
Michelle Steiner: shame and that stigma. And I can remember going to my writing group and telling
Michelle Steiner: people I had a learning disability as a teenager. And I'm very lucky to have
Michelle Steiner: that group. 30, uh, 20-some years later, we still meet once a month to talk
Michelle Steiner: about our writing. And they told me when at the beginning, well, you should write
Michelle Steiner: about having a learning disability. And I was like, oh no. I don't want to
Michelle Steiner: talk about that. And I wrote some really bad poetry, and people didn't know
Michelle Steiner: a lot about things like that, and it just was not acceptable to talk about.
Michelle Steiner: Now it's a lot better. And furthermore, people, as they didn't
Michelle Steiner: know about that, there wasn't a lot of groups. I can remember every single
Michelle Steiner: thing about learning disabilities I read about was based upon being a white
Michelle Steiner: male, and they all had reading
Michelle Steiner: disabilities. Now with the groups on Facebook or
Michelle Steiner: other virtual groups that are online, I got to meet
Michelle Steiner: people that, that are female that have dyscalculia or male too. I mean, we,
Michelle Steiner: we meet a lot of people. It doesn't discriminate against anything with
Michelle Steiner: that. And there's people that have difficulties with math. There's people that
Michelle Steiner: have difficulties with, they don't drive and there's people
Michelle Steiner: who do. And that, that's great too. And I think it's just meeting a lot
Michelle Steiner: of different people with that. And our awareness is much more,
Michelle Steiner: a lot broadened. A lot more modern than it was years ago. Yeah. But both
Joanne Lockwood: of our two children were diagnosed with
Joanne Lockwood: dyslexia. Yeah. Late in their school career, towards the end of
Joanne Lockwood: it. Especially our son, probably our son was a bit earlier than that. We realised
Joanne Lockwood: that he wasn't learning his alphabet. He wasn't,
Joanne Lockwood: his reading age was stuck a couple of years old. He wasn't engaging in that
Joanne Lockwood: sort of way. And it took us a long while for us us as parents
Joanne Lockwood: to realise there was, this was, this was a
Joanne Lockwood: thing, you know, our children are what, 30 years old. This is 30 years
Joanne Lockwood: ago. There was not the immediate support. We were left trying to find out what's
Joanne Lockwood: going on here. The schools weren't willing to really engage. And it
Joanne Lockwood: made us realise that we as parents weren't prepared for this. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: today, 30 years on, or even 20 years on, 5, 10
Joanne Lockwood: years ago, People are, parents are much more aware and
Joanne Lockwood: able to give their child that support now, aren't they? Exactly. And was that your
Michelle Steiner: first child then? Well, our first child, our daughter, we
Joanne Lockwood: didn't discover that she was, um, had a
Joanne Lockwood: reading challenge until she was probably 14 or 15, maybe 15 or
Joanne Lockwood: 16. Right. But our son was a lot younger.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. He effectively triggered more awareness in
Joanne Lockwood: us. That allowed us to really recognise what our daughter had been saying for a
Joanne Lockwood: longer time. Right. Yeah,
Michelle Steiner: because what I would say with that, I, I know with my experience, I was
Michelle Steiner: my parents' first child, so they didn't have a lot to base
Michelle Steiner: what typical development was. In fact, when I was in preschool,
Michelle Steiner: the parents, or excuse me, the teacher thought something
Michelle Steiner: was going on, but they didn't even know how to diagnose that. And they
Michelle Steiner: thought, Okay, well, we think she needs another year of preschool.
Michelle Steiner: And my parents thought, oh, she'll catch up. She, you know, she looks normal. Everything
Michelle Steiner: seems to be along that, those lines. And
Michelle Steiner: they sent me to kindergarten. And when I got to kindergarten, that's when
Michelle Steiner: my teacher at the very beginning was like, no, this is
Michelle Steiner: definitely, there's some, some things going on. We recommend her getting tested for a learning
Michelle Steiner: disability. And I also credit a lot of that too. That I was
Michelle Steiner: around so many adults that I didn't mask my behaviour like a typical
Michelle Steiner: kid would. I was really frustrated and I was telling
Michelle Steiner: people, I don't understand this at all. So I
Michelle Steiner: think to my credit, I think that was a big thing as well.
Michelle Steiner: But I know when my brother came along 13 years ago, that was on my
Michelle Steiner: parents' mind. When he was in preschool, they were asking the teacher,
Michelle Steiner: is he learning this okay? And they're like, yep, he's fine. He's really
Michelle Steiner: ready for kindergarten. Went to kindergarten. He was doing great with
Michelle Steiner: a lot of that. So I think that was always a factor
Michelle Steiner: that they thought about. And then when my brother had my niece, his,
Michelle Steiner: his daughters, they were always on that lookout of, is this,
Michelle Steiner: she reverses her 6 and her 9. Is, is that
Michelle Steiner: dyslexia? Both the girls had that. And I've explained to them, I said, that really
Michelle Steiner: sounds like that's a common reversal at that age. That's developmental. Ask
Michelle Steiner: the teacher if she thinks there's any further things going on and
Michelle Steiner: it hasn't been. One of my nieces is in, she's in 4th grade this year
Michelle Steiner: and she's doing really well with school. And then my youngest
Michelle Steiner: niece is in 1st grade and she's in the highest reading group. So
Michelle Steiner: they're, they're both, they both do not have, as far as what we can tell
Michelle Steiner: now, they don't have a learning disability.
Joanne Lockwood: Hmm. Again, going back to my son here, one of the things that
Joanne Lockwood: we flagged, it didn't flag, we should be looking back on it. We should
Joanne Lockwood: have used it as a trigger was we thought he was having, his
Joanne Lockwood: eyesight was the problem. And we took him to have his eyes tested
Joanne Lockwood: and the optician concluded he needed glasses.
Joanne Lockwood: And so we got these glasses because we've put all of his
Joanne Lockwood: reading difficulties down to not being able to see
Joanne Lockwood: properly. Yeah, exactly. What we didn't realise was that he
Joanne Lockwood: couldn't read the letters. When they're testing his reading the letters off the
Joanne Lockwood: board, he said, well, I don't know what they say. And they assumed that
Joanne Lockwood: meant And he was, he ended up with these glasses that were really quite thick
Joanne Lockwood: that you would never wear. And we would say to him, Connie, you gotta put
Joanne Lockwood: your glasses on. And he was going, I don't want to, they're making
Joanne Lockwood: everything blurry. It took us a real long time to realise
Joanne Lockwood: that the glasses were just a symptom of him not being able to read the
Joanne Lockwood: words or the letters on the optician's chart. That makes sense,
Michelle Steiner: 100%, because yeah, because people would think, oh, he just needs glasses and he'll
Michelle Steiner: be able to figure, he didn't know what the letters
Michelle Steiner: were. Right. And yeah. And I always tell people, definitely, if you think
Michelle Steiner: something's going on like that, see if their eyes are working, see if the ears
Michelle Steiner: are working. And sometimes that can be another condition
Michelle Steiner: on top of it. But he couldn't understand that. And for me, whenever
Michelle Steiner: I went to the eye doctor when I was young, I could see what
Michelle Steiner: the letters were, but they could tell the visual perception was
Michelle Steiner: even off then. And they gave my parents some exercises to do, but yeah,
Michelle Steiner: my vision was always really good. I mean, just
Michelle Steiner: was just trying to— and that's what makes it so frustrating. Everybody thinks, well, you
Michelle Steiner: must be visually impaired. I'm like, no, I'm not visually impaired. I just have a
Michelle Steiner: lot of difficulty with reacting when I have that
Michelle Steiner: information. It's funny, like if I have a— if I'm going in a door and
Michelle Steiner: there's somebody that's coming out and I'm going in, my brain just freezes.
Michelle Steiner: Like, well, what do I do? Do I let them go first? Do I go
Michelle Steiner: first? And my body just can't make that connection. Or if
Michelle Steiner: I'm going upstairs sometimes, I mean, I can do it, but I might have to
Michelle Steiner: hold on because I might might just misjudge the step that's in front of me.
Michelle Steiner: Or if I'm going on the escalator, can't tell when the stairs are stopping or
Michelle Steiner: ending. So it's almost like you've got the information travelling down the highway and then
Joanne Lockwood: you get a section of the highway where the road is all muddy or it's
Joanne Lockwood: all potholed and your car sort of skids around a bit and go, hang on
Joanne Lockwood: a minute. Yeah, exactly. That's why we don't.
Michelle Steiner: Drive. And there's a funny storey with that too, with, with the
Michelle Steiner: driving. Whenever I was young, about driving age is
Michelle Steiner: 16 in the States, or most of them, some are a little bit younger, but
Michelle Steiner: in our state it was 16. And my mom and dad knew, they were like,
Michelle Steiner: oh, okay, if it's any indication with gym
Michelle Steiner: class, we might wanna wait a little bit to see if that matures. So we
Michelle Steiner: didn't go right when I was 16 to attempt to do that, but
Michelle Steiner: they gave me some little tests, you know, months later. One of them was that
Michelle Steiner: we lived out in the country and we had a field and My parents said,
Michelle Steiner: why don't you go mow the field? Well, instead of making long,
Michelle Steiner: beautiful lines on the mower, on the riding mower, I ended up
Michelle Steiner: making circles. So I always say that they look like crop
Michelle Steiner: circles. So the mystery of where crop circles come from was
Michelle Steiner: definitely completed and it was solved. And I
Michelle Steiner: also almost ran into the family garage when we decided we're going to
Michelle Steiner: try driving in the car to see going up the driveway. And at that
Michelle Steiner: point, my parents thought it's time to get in to see what's going on. And
Michelle Steiner: I passed every single test. On the evaluation except for visual
Michelle Steiner: perception. Yeah. And that's pretty.
Michelle Steiner: Important. Mm-hmm. True. Yeah. Oh, missed it. Yeah, that's
Joanne Lockwood: right. Yeah. Yeah, I could drive fine. I just couldn't react to
Joanne Lockwood: things happening. Yep, exactly. If it was just
Michelle Steiner: me, that would be fine, but it's other people and
Michelle Steiner: yeah. So think about the, when you're at work or your
Joanne Lockwood: workplace, How can people become more aware, more
Joanne Lockwood: educated, more understanding of what
Joanne Lockwood: your condition, your needs are, or people who have
Joanne Lockwood: other similar neurodiversity? How can
Joanne Lockwood: people engage and find out more? Because you don't want people bothering you all the
Joanne Lockwood: time saying, please explain this, please explain that. It gets a bit boring. But
Joanne Lockwood: how can people just make those everyday helpful
Joanne Lockwood: interventions with you? I think I'm pretty good about explaining in the beginning
Michelle Steiner: of what I need. I'm very good at that. And I think it's following through.
Michelle Steiner: And when a person tells you that and going through with
Michelle Steiner: that and believing them at their word, I mean, people can also look that up
Michelle Steiner: if they, if they'd like or ask questions, as long as it's
Michelle Steiner: respectful. But I think it's believing the person and not trying to change that. I
Michelle Steiner: also think that that's the big thing. If I tell you I can't do
Michelle Steiner: math. Please do not think that you're going to be able to teach me. Lots
Michelle Steiner: of people have thought before that, and that, that just has not gone in
Michelle Steiner: that direction. So I think it's affirming when somebody tells you and believing
Michelle Steiner: them. I really can't do that is a big thing. I also think it's when
Michelle Steiner: people give me clear directions
Michelle Steiner: that I understand what the expectations are is also really important. And I
Michelle Steiner: do very well with staff who does that. They might say, can you please do
Michelle Steiner: this? Or I need you, and they look me right in the eye and they
Michelle Steiner: tell me what what I need to do, and that helps because my
Michelle Steiner: brain does need to have that clear. Sometimes I may not pick up on some
Michelle Steiner: of the nuances that you might want, or if it's vague
Michelle Steiner: information, my brain may not do that. And sometimes I might have to go back
Michelle Steiner: and think, what do I need to do? If I'm at the copier, we, we
Michelle Steiner: finally do have a copier I can understand a little bit better, but I have
Michelle Steiner: a way of understanding what that means, and I might have
Michelle Steiner: to play around with things to figure out where stuff is at. So I think
Michelle Steiner: That's helpful too, as well. So a bit of patience, a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of realising you're not going to get everything first time, but you will get it
Joanne Lockwood: if someone's patient with you. Or there's certain things you just won't get and
Joanne Lockwood: there's no point in just saying, well, come on, Michelle, there's no point. I can
Joanne Lockwood: train you and train you and train you and train you. You're still going to
Joanne Lockwood: go, doesn't work. Yeah. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. But I like it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So you can, you can push the number of copies button on the copier
Joanne Lockwood: and get 3 copies out. You can, you can do.
Michelle Steiner: That. The double-sided, I can know where the finishing things are for staple
Michelle Steiner: and punching, hole punching. And actually that's really good too, because if I do that
Michelle Steiner: by hand, I work for employers that they wanted to have them all
Michelle Steiner: perfectly lined up and my visual perception would not do that. And they
Michelle Steiner: would get, people would get frustrated with me. So I'd love to
Michelle Steiner: go back and tell some of those employers there is some technology
Michelle Steiner: out there that, that can just perfectly straighten things on, on the copier.
Michelle Steiner: I mean, there's a lot that can be done now, and I think that just
Michelle Steiner: comes back to that technology. But yeah, it's just finding what works. I can tell
Michelle Steiner: if you want 3 copies, I, I can put that on there. I can put
Michelle Steiner: 5 copies and all of that. I could understand that part. And I think it
Michelle Steiner: was, I had an advisor or a disability director in
Michelle Steiner: college that, that asked me when I was telling him, well, I need accommodations for
Michelle Steiner: math. And he goes, So what's it like when you go to the store? How
Michelle Steiner: are you with purchasing things? I said, yeah, I can kind of get an understanding.
Michelle Steiner: It's never a perfect total of how much I have, but I can see the
Michelle Steiner: dollars and the numbers and the change. And he goes, okay, that tells me
Michelle Steiner: you can understand the relationship between math. I'm like, yeah, I
Michelle Steiner: understand the relationship. I just can't get into figuring out a
Michelle Steiner: very deep understanding. Yeah. If I've got $1 and
Joanne Lockwood: then it costs $1.50, you know, you can't afford it. And
Joanne Lockwood: you, if you've got $2, you know you can't afford it and you're going to
Joanne Lockwood: get 50 cents change. So you understand the relationships. Yeah. It's
Joanne Lockwood: just actually doing the processing. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. If you give
Michelle Steiner: me a debit card or credit card, it's very abstract. So I'll end up spending
Michelle Steiner: more. Tap it on the machine all the time. Yeah, exactly. Can't see
Michelle Steiner: the relationship at that point. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So your spatial awareness and your dexterity allow you to sort
Joanne Lockwood: of pay for things with the.
Michelle Steiner: Card. Sometimes that works. So when you are in these situations
Joanne Lockwood: where people are benevolent, they're trying to help you, do you often find, do you
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes find that people are a bit, can become a bit patronizing, a bit
Joanne Lockwood: sort of pat you on the head or Michelle can't do this type thing? Is
Joanne Lockwood: that a danger as well? I get, I get a mixture of this.
Michelle Steiner: I'll get people that think I can't do anything. And that's
Michelle Steiner: not helpful because there are things I can do and I can
Michelle Steiner: learn. Sometimes even the term learning disability, people think, well, you must not be able
Michelle Steiner: to learn. Well, I can. I just have to find a way that works for
Michelle Steiner: me and it's going to be different. And I also have people that think
Michelle Steiner: I can do anything. They think, well, there's nothing wrong with you. You
Michelle Steiner: don't look like you're disabled. And they think you're giving yourself a compliment and there's
Michelle Steiner: nothing wrong with having a disability either. And also people
Michelle Steiner: sometimes can be really— some of the disability is becoming more
Michelle Steiner: aware, not aware, but people can be able to see it more. It's more visual.
Michelle Steiner: For example, with my hand dexterity, I have a way that
Michelle Steiner: I have to adapt in my life that feels normal to
Michelle Steiner: me, but to other people might look different. And I had this happen a few
Michelle Steiner: years ago when I was in the grocery store and it was a crowded store.
Michelle Steiner: And sometimes my husband goes in to help me or other times we might just
Michelle Steiner: do a pickup order, but this time I went in the store. And
Michelle Steiner: I'm unloading my cart and there's somebody comes up behind me in the line and
Michelle Steiner: I'm like, okay. And she starts unloading my cart for
Michelle Steiner: me. And I look at her and said, oh, thank you. And she said,
Michelle Steiner: yeah, I like to help people and you really look like you need help. And
Michelle Steiner: I was just really surprised that somebody was that, because I'm not used
Michelle Steiner: to, I do have people that'll ask me, this is even something that's unrelated
Michelle Steiner: with having a disability, but it's a physical difference. My feet turn in when I
Michelle Steiner: walk because of how I was positioned in the womb. So I've had people that
Michelle Steiner: have kind of made fun of that for years and just ask me questions about
Michelle Steiner: that. And, but it's one of those things
Michelle Steiner: that I, I mean, I'm not in any pains. And the same thing with the
Michelle Steiner: hands. I'm not in any pain with that, but people will ask me questions and
Michelle Steiner: sometimes I'm not as skilled on answering that as I am with
Michelle Steiner: saying, oh, okay. I'd laugh about it. I got a learning disability. Yeah, I can't
Michelle Steiner: do math. I'm not a mathematician. But I think sometimes comments
Michelle Steiner: are harder to deal with when people can see that and people tell
Michelle Steiner: you that and sometimes just being really stunned. So I'm guessing
Joanne Lockwood: that the fact it's a hidden or
Joanne Lockwood: non-visible or non-obvious disability apart from maybe, as you say, the way you walk or
Joanne Lockwood: the way your hands are, just having a chat with you
Joanne Lockwood: today, you're just like anybody else I've ever chatted with. You know, you're on the
Joanne Lockwood: other end of a Zoom call. You're fantastic. You're funny. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: loads of personality. Thank you. People probably
Joanne Lockwood: don't see that hidden side of what's going on in your life. And that
Joanne Lockwood: surprises them. Yeah. I mean, because a lot of people don't see that. And I
Michelle Steiner: often say just because we can't see the disability doesn't mean it's not
Michelle Steiner: there. It's there. It has an impact on my life, but I found ways
Michelle Steiner: to be able to, to, to be able to do, be able to cope with
Michelle Steiner: that. And I'm fine with having that. So I think sometimes that comes as
Michelle Steiner: a surprise to people. So I might go in for a job
Michelle Steiner: interview.. And people might think, she can do this. If I don't tell them, they
Michelle Steiner: don't know. And I haven't— sometimes I'll disclose, sometimes I don't disclose. It
Michelle Steiner: just really depends on the situation. And once I get in there though,
Michelle Steiner: I do have to explain, okay, I need an accommodation with
Michelle Steiner: this. And really what I need the accommodations with are not really things
Michelle Steiner: that are going to cost a lot of money or they're not going to be
Michelle Steiner: that much of a liability for anybody. I might just say,
Michelle Steiner: okay, I cannot go into the only real definites that I can't
Michelle Steiner: do. I'm unable to lift people and I definitely can't do math. That math
Michelle Steiner: is the big definite one I can't do. And a lot of times people just
Michelle Steiner: think, okay, well, we won't put you in a math class, but it appears in
Michelle Steiner: other classes. They'll think, well, can you do science? So why can't you do science?
Michelle Steiner: Well, there's math and science. So I'm going to have to talk with whoever the
Michelle Steiner: instructor is. And I've had a pretty good, a really good staff
Michelle Steiner: that they're understanding about that. And then, you know, it'll, it'll
Michelle Steiner: might show up in a history class. If they're going how many miles it
Michelle Steiner: takes to get from this to that, or being like a, or reading a map,
Michelle Steiner: that's a big thing. And people think, why can't you understand longitude and
Michelle Steiner: latitude? I'm like, it sounds to me so, well, it's not using math. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it is. It is. It uses numbers. I
Michelle Steiner: can. And also I was, I had to help assist a student in a
Michelle Steiner: music class. And there is a connection between music and math, and I just do
Michelle Steiner: not understand that connection. So it's explaining that there. So I think
Michelle Steiner: sometimes it's just learning how to say things in a
Michelle Steiner: way that, um, that's effective, it's assertive, but it's also
Michelle Steiner: kind too. And I think that's a big thing too, is just sometimes having to
Michelle Steiner: go with things and just being able to just say,
Michelle Steiner: okay, I can't help. I could walk around the room in a math class. And
Michelle Steiner: make sure everybody's on task, or if it's a, if it's a certain class, but
Michelle Steiner: it's just learning that and people don't know it and that's okay too. That's
Michelle Steiner: where I get that way of explaining it. And it does bring
Michelle Steiner: education to others. And that's part of what I want to do a lot with
Michelle Steiner: my blog too, is to, is to bring that education to other people. It's funny
Joanne Lockwood: you talk about the music though. Yeah. You don't think about music as
Joanne Lockwood: being math because it's 8 notes. You've got beats
Joanne Lockwood: per minute. You've got a single rest, a double rest, a
Joanne Lockwood: crotchet, a quaver, different length notes. And so you're
Joanne Lockwood: having to count timings and work out. So the whole thing
Joanne Lockwood: is, is this mathematics? It is
Michelle Steiner: with rhythm. Yeah. And that's why they say a lot of times students who
Michelle Steiner: do really well with music do great at math. Now I've known people that
Michelle Steiner: have said, oh no, I can play music. Like my husband plays guitar and he
Michelle Steiner: goes, I'm terrible at math. And I've known other people who have said the same
Michelle Steiner: thing, but your brain is still doing that. And for somebody that has
Michelle Steiner: a disability with math, that just may not always work out
Michelle Steiner: that way. And that's okay too. I could never
Joanne Lockwood: get music. I tried learning the recorder, the yellow bag recorder at school,
Joanne Lockwood: and they were just, they could shout and scream. I just didn't get it. I
Joanne Lockwood: just didn't get it at all. It was like hands move, read stuff on,
Joanne Lockwood: it was like, what? You're having a laugh. I can't, don't get it. No, I
Michelle Steiner: didn't get it. Piano when we had, we had school.
Michelle Steiner: I can remember the teacher had other students teach us how
Michelle Steiner: to do it. And obviously I did not learn how to do piano
Michelle Steiner: and I can't remember having to do it in front of the class and having
Michelle Steiner: the teacher scream at me, no, no, that's not right. And I'm like, okay,
Michelle Steiner: dun, dun, dun. You had other, first of all, you had other students teach me.
Michelle Steiner: And then in college we had to learn how to play Mary Had a
Michelle Steiner: Little Lamb. I could do that. Yeah, I could do that. Could you? I can
Joanne Lockwood: do that. Yeah, you could do that. Great. I could do that. 3 blind mice.
Joanne Lockwood: 3 blind mice. 3 blind mice. That's about all I could do. Yeah. And luckily
Michelle Steiner: the professor was pretty understanding and we didn't have to do it in front of
Michelle Steiner: the class. And she, she, she said, you know, you're not going to be good
Michelle Steiner: at everything. I'm like, that's fine by me. And we, we passed the class.
Michelle Steiner: That was funny. So what have you got planned for your future
Joanne Lockwood: then? You obviously figured out who you are now. You figured out what works, what
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't work for you. What's your, what's your ambition? What do you
Joanne Lockwood: want to achieve next in life? You know, you're doing a great job. You
Joanne Lockwood: love your photography, love your writing. Where does Michelle end up in
Joanne Lockwood: 10 years' time? I would love to definitely expand the blog.
Michelle Steiner: I would also like to write a book and I'm also in a programme where
Michelle Steiner: we're doing disability policy. So I would, I'm not sure what I'll
Michelle Steiner: do after that with that, but I would definitely love to be able to help
Michelle Steiner: other people and advocate for others as well. Do you find that your lived
Joanne Lockwood: experience is actually inspiring younger
Joanne Lockwood: people, maybe in your care or just around saying,
Joanne Lockwood: well, because the biggest challenge, if you can't see
Joanne Lockwood: somebody doing something, you never feel that you can achieve it either. So you,
Joanne Lockwood: by being this, I hate the word role model, by being a role model though,
Joanne Lockwood: by being someone who's visible saying Michelle can, I can,
Joanne Lockwood: does that help? One of the things I do try to work with my students
Michelle Steiner: is how to advocate because I can see, I work with 7th
Michelle Steiner: graders and And a lot of it brings me back to that age that I
Michelle Steiner: was at. And I am not at, not with every student, but a lot of
Michelle Steiner: them. And I can just see that for all my students, they're one day going
Michelle Steiner: to graduate, they're going to leave me, but for a lot of them, their disability
Michelle Steiner: is going to stay there. And it's so important now that I show them
Michelle Steiner: how to advocate for themselves because they're going to need to know how to do
Michelle Steiner: that. And sometimes I can go up to them, I care, and be able to
Michelle Steiner: make that influence in their lives. I can remember a few years ago
Michelle Steiner: I had a, somebody that was in a class and they were expecting me to
Michelle Steiner: help out with math. And I looked up to this guy and thought, why in
Michelle Steiner: the world am I in this class? I told him I can't do this. And
Michelle Steiner: somebody said, this student is crying. And I went over to him and I,
Michelle Steiner: I got on eye level with him. I said, I understand how frustrating math is.
Michelle Steiner: I struggle with that too, and I can't help you, but I want you to
Michelle Steiner: tell me whenever you are frustrated so I can get somebody to
Michelle Steiner: help you. And before I knew it, that student wasn't crying. When he had a
Michelle Steiner: question, he was able to raise his hand. So that's something I talk about with
Michelle Steiner: a lot of my kids. I will tell them, if you don't understand something, it's
Michelle Steiner: up to you. You need to raise your hand. You need to ask for those
Michelle Steiner: resources and that support. I'll go with you, but you need to be the one
Michelle Steiner: that speaks up for that. I also have maybe some other people
Michelle Steiner: that have told me, oh, I decided— I saw you wrote an article
Michelle Steiner: for The Mighty. I decided I'm going to write an article for them and I
Michelle Steiner: sent something out. So sometimes that helps. I've had
Michelle Steiner: other people that might've said, oh, you talked about getting
Michelle Steiner: help from the state office for vocational
Michelle Steiner: rehabilitation. I decided I'm going to call them and make an appointment and see what
Michelle Steiner: I can do. So I think sometimes with that, sharing
Michelle Steiner: my storey and sharing resources helps to encourage other people
Michelle Steiner: in life to be able to go out and go after what their dreams
Michelle Steiner: are and to be able to advocate for themselves. I think you're so right. And
Joanne Lockwood: I've seen it throughout my own career, my own
Joanne Lockwood: journey that The biggest blocker is you in your own head, isn't it? You know,
Joanne Lockwood: I can't. And allowing someone to allow you to
Joanne Lockwood: go past that block. They can, I can, or
Joanne Lockwood: even if, even if it's not directly that, it's just believing
Joanne Lockwood: that somebody can allow you. To open yourself up. Right. And finding what
Michelle Steiner: works for you too. What I might do may not be your style and that's
Michelle Steiner: okay. As long as you're out there finding what you want to do and you're
Michelle Steiner: finding your way in life. I just want to be encouragement for that. The world
Michelle Steiner: The world needs all kinds of thinkers. It does. It does. And that's the
Joanne Lockwood: important thing. So what's your one big, one
Joanne Lockwood: big takeaway from today? From what would you always leave people with as
Joanne Lockwood: a thought? I always leave people with that success doesn't always come in the package
Michelle Steiner: that we expect. Sometimes it comes in something even better.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow. Brilliant. This has been fascinating. How can people get ahold
Joanne Lockwood: of you? You can find me at my
Michelle Steiner: blog, www.michellesmission.com, and I'm also on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. LinkedIn as
Joanne Lockwood: well. Excellent. And I'll put all those details on the, in the show notes. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. It's
Joanne Lockwood: Michelle, M-I-C-H-E-E-L-L-E, and Lee, L-E-E, and
Joanne Lockwood: Steiner, S-T-E-I-N-E-R. Yeah. Yes. Brilliant. I'll put those in the details and hopefully if you
Joanne Lockwood: listen to this, reach out to Michelle and maybe either share some of your
Joanne Lockwood: own experience or I'm sure, Michelle, you'd be willing to engage and have a chat
Joanne Lockwood: with people. So yeah, please do reach out. So Michelle, it's been
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fascinating. I could talk to you for hours. Thank you very much. Thank you
Michelle Steiner: for having me. It's been a pleasure. As we
Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause
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Joanne Lockwood: time, This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to
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Joanne Lockwood: world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.