WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.320 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.720 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.640 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.040 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone 6 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.760 not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.200 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.760 the status quo, and share storeys that resonate 9 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.480 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.400 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.400 --> 00:00:50.360 connect, reflect, and inspire action together. 12 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.870 Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 13 00:00:54.870 --> 00:00:58.670 to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:59.070 --> 00:01:02.590 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:01:03.470 --> 00:01:07.230 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:01:07.230 --> 00:01:10.830 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:15.470 --> 00:01:19.450 And today is episode 216. With 18 00:01:19.450 --> 00:01:22.930 the title Writing Belonging into Being. 19 00:01:23.570 --> 00:01:27.410 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Michelle Lee 20 00:01:27.410 --> 00:01:30.370 Steiner. Michelle is a writer, speaker, 21 00:01:30.690 --> 00:01:34.490 photographer, and paraeducator who uses her lived 22 00:01:34.490 --> 00:01:38.370 experience of a learning disability to encourage, empower, 23 00:01:38.370 --> 00:01:41.730 and educate people with and without disabilities. 24 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.600 When I asked Michelle to describe her superpower, she said that it is her 25 00:01:46.600 --> 00:01:50.240 writing and photography. Writing gives her a voice 26 00:01:50.960 --> 00:01:54.800 and photography helps her capture the details that other people often 27 00:01:54.880 --> 00:01:58.240 miss. Hello, Michelle. Welcome to the show. 28 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.520 Hey, Jo, it's great to be here today. I'm excited to have this 29 00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:06.240 conversation. Yes. And we were chit-chatting away just now. 30 00:02:06.800 --> 00:02:10.560 You are in the US somewhere, is that right? Yes, I 31 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.140 live in Pennsylvania. Yep. 32 00:02:14.740 --> 00:02:17.602 Wow. There's a big famous— was it Glen Miller, Pennsylvania 65,000? 33 00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:21.940 Right now it is, it's actually a little warmer than it's been. 34 00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:25.540 It was snowing before, but yeah, it is like 35 00:02:25.700 --> 00:02:29.580 7:30. Yeah, it's early and it's a 36 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:33.580 little bit warmer than it has been in the past couple days. So my 37 00:02:33.580 --> 00:02:36.700 geography's not very good. So you are north of New York on the East Coast, 38 00:02:36.700 --> 00:02:40.270 is that right? Yes, we are. We're about 39 00:02:40.990 --> 00:02:44.270 7 to 8 hours away from New York. So I believe, 40 00:02:44.990 --> 00:02:48.110 yeah. Is that in the car or is that in the plane? That would be 41 00:02:48.110 --> 00:02:51.790 in the car. In a car. In a car. We've gone there many times, 42 00:02:51.870 --> 00:02:55.470 but yeah, to New York City on trips and everything. So, yep. 43 00:02:55.950 --> 00:02:59.870 It's fascinating. One hidden benefit for me recording this podcast is I'm learning a 44 00:02:59.870 --> 00:03:03.470 whole lot more about the US geography and where things are because 45 00:03:03.710 --> 00:03:07.550 I have guests from all over the states and all over the world. Right. Yeah. 46 00:03:07.550 --> 00:03:11.480 That's awesome. Yeah. So I know I've, I 47 00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:15.390 think I've had another guest from Pennsylvania recently and certainly New York State and 48 00:03:15.390 --> 00:03:19.190 Texas and Florida and California. So 49 00:03:19.190 --> 00:03:21.950 yeah, if you listen to this and you're from a part of the States, then 50 00:03:22.190 --> 00:03:25.550 yeah, I'd love to hear from you as well. Anyway, Michelle, 51 00:03:25.950 --> 00:03:28.830 reading through the notes and, you know, I, I, I intimated it as part of 52 00:03:28.830 --> 00:03:32.110 the introduction there. You're quite open about the fact you have a learning disability. 53 00:03:33.100 --> 00:03:37.100 And my understanding is that from a very early age, people had 54 00:03:37.100 --> 00:03:40.380 limiting expectations of you and almost sort of said, well, 55 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:44.420 Michelle won't achieve. So tell us a bit about that. Well, I've 56 00:03:44.420 --> 00:03:48.180 had a lot of people all throughout my life not thinking that I was going 57 00:03:48.180 --> 00:03:52.060 to accomplish a lot. I can remember even being like when I was 58 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:56.060 very young in kindergarten, I was diagnosed with having a learning disability 59 00:03:56.460 --> 00:04:00.100 and I can just remember a lot of times, well, that was one of their 60 00:04:00.100 --> 00:04:03.460 first fears that I was going to develop learned helplessness. Even my early teachers are 61 00:04:03.460 --> 00:04:07.390 like, well, we I've got to really encourage Michelle to do things because she needs 62 00:04:07.390 --> 00:04:10.310 to not develop that. She needs to know what she can do. And I can 63 00:04:10.310 --> 00:04:13.950 realise that was not only going to be something because of my own 64 00:04:14.030 --> 00:04:17.990 thoughts about myself, but also what other people were going to start to think 65 00:04:17.990 --> 00:04:21.990 too. That also really became a big theme whenever 66 00:04:21.990 --> 00:04:25.070 I was in high school for what I was going to do after high school, 67 00:04:25.390 --> 00:04:28.990 because I knew that I wanted to go to college. I was still scared, still 68 00:04:28.990 --> 00:04:32.110 doubting myself, even though I was doing well in my schooling. 69 00:04:32.830 --> 00:04:36.390 But I had a learning support teacher who told me, "I don't think you can 70 00:04:36.390 --> 00:04:39.950 go to college because of your difficulties with math," and she 71 00:04:39.950 --> 00:04:43.790 suggested a trade school, even though nothing interested me. I 72 00:04:44.030 --> 00:04:47.270 thought, "Okay, I'm going to go forward," and I had to get tested for a 73 00:04:47.270 --> 00:04:51.190 learning disability again to get accommodations at college. And 74 00:04:51.190 --> 00:04:55.070 it was during that time that the psychiatrist who evaluated 75 00:04:55.070 --> 00:04:58.510 me— never been a— I've never been a great test taker, and he said, 76 00:04:59.080 --> 00:05:02.760 'Based on these scores, you're most likely not going to go beyond community college.' 77 00:05:02.840 --> 00:05:06.680 I get to community college and I faced even more stigma with people 78 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:10.200 limiting beliefs. I can remember when I asked for 79 00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:14.120 a calculator in a math class, I said, 'Oh no, we use our brains in 80 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.880 this class.' And my advisor said, 'I think 81 00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:21.560 you're going to have limited job choices whenever you graduate.' 82 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:25.400 She said, 'Well, with your difficulties with math, you're not going to 83 00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:29.210 know how much paper to use if your students do an 84 00:05:29.210 --> 00:05:32.650 art project. And she wasn't entirely wrong about the 85 00:05:32.650 --> 00:05:36.370 difficulties I was going to have, but I've had to learn 86 00:05:36.450 --> 00:05:40.050 it's about how I plan out for them. So 87 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:43.770 sometimes I might make a mistake. Sometimes I might have to double-check something or have 88 00:05:43.770 --> 00:05:47.410 some, or ask somebody, hey, did I get this correct or not? But 89 00:05:47.570 --> 00:05:50.810 that was difficult because I thought, well, I would like to have a job someday. 90 00:05:50.810 --> 00:05:54.770 And that was something that really scared me.. And I can't even 91 00:05:54.770 --> 00:05:58.690 remember after I got my bachelor's degree, I had a 92 00:05:59.010 --> 00:06:02.010 psychiatrist, um, I had to go in because I'm, I'm not able to drive and 93 00:06:02.010 --> 00:06:05.930 I needed, we had a transportation system specifically for people 94 00:06:05.930 --> 00:06:09.850 with disabilities, but you had to have documentation why you couldn't drive. And 95 00:06:09.850 --> 00:06:13.690 I needed an updated form and they asked me on there, well, what are some 96 00:06:13.690 --> 00:06:16.850 things that you would like to do? And I just decided, okay, I'm going to 97 00:06:16.850 --> 00:06:20.810 talk about what my dream job would be. Maybe a caseworker, maybe, uh, doing 98 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:24.440 things with writing and, and writing for news and 99 00:06:24.750 --> 00:06:28.710 preparing news briefs. Once again, I've had that limitation 100 00:06:28.710 --> 00:06:32.510 people put on me that based upon my 101 00:06:32.510 --> 00:06:36.190 testing scores, that it would be on— all this will be beyond my 102 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:39.710 capabilities. And we're just going to not even put that as a recommendation for a 103 00:06:40.270 --> 00:06:43.990 job. And I find that really funny after I've gotten things published and I have 104 00:06:43.990 --> 00:06:47.990 a blog that this is what experts have told me 105 00:06:47.990 --> 00:06:51.860 that I could not do. I also had people who 106 00:06:51.860 --> 00:06:54.660 told me, well, I don't know if you're going to meet somebody with having a 107 00:06:55.300 --> 00:06:59.180 disability. And that was also a really hard one too, because I always thought, 108 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:02.780 well, maybe I would like to get married, maybe I would like to meet somebody. 109 00:07:02.780 --> 00:07:06.620 And I have had people that have rejected me for having one. I 110 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:09.900 can remember my ex breaking up with me saying, I think you could drive if 111 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:13.900 you wanted to, and I'm tired of taking you places. And I just finally 112 00:07:13.900 --> 00:07:17.780 got to that point where I thought, I'm really probably not going to meet 113 00:07:17.860 --> 00:07:21.680 anybody. And I I did actually, I have met my husband 114 00:07:21.760 --> 00:07:25.600 and we've been married for 10 years and we'll celebrate 115 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.480 11 years this June. Wow. That's 116 00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:34.160 fascinating. You mentioned the difficulty with mathematics and the fact that you don't drive 117 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.680 and other things. Could you just tell me what 118 00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:41.880 your specific developmental differences are? 119 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:45.400 Sure. I have dyscalculia, which is a math disability. I 120 00:07:45.400 --> 00:07:49.200 have difficulty with how numbers work. And it might be, might 121 00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:52.480 be different than what a lot of people might think with that. A lot of 122 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:56.400 times people think dyscalculia, you must see numbers backwards, 123 00:07:56.400 --> 00:08:00.360 and that's not the truth. I have difficulty with how they work. Some 124 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:04.120 visual things with not being able to read the face of an analogue clock. I 125 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.920 can see the numbers, I can see the lines, but it just does not make 126 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.760 sense to me. I also have trouble with budgeting, 127 00:08:11.760 --> 00:08:15.440 counting back, just, just with different things with 128 00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:19.350 counting. I also have difficulty with reading a ruler and I confuse 129 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:23.380 my my right from my left. I also have visual perception issues, but that's 130 00:08:23.380 --> 00:08:27.220 in my brain, not in my eyes. So that makes like 131 00:08:27.220 --> 00:08:31.180 my reaction time and driving affected with that. 132 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:35.100 My hand coordination isn't great. In fact, I blink every time a ball 133 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:38.700 comes in my field of vision or something like that does. So gym class was 134 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:42.620 a nightmare for me growing up. And I also have limited 135 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:45.500 hand dexterity, and that was not diagnosed until I was an 136 00:08:46.530 --> 00:08:50.530 adult. And what that is, is all the light bulbs went off after that 137 00:08:50.530 --> 00:08:54.410 point, because before when things would fall out of my hands, people thought, 138 00:08:54.410 --> 00:08:58.050 well, you're clumsy. And that's not true. And the 139 00:08:58.290 --> 00:09:02.089 handwriting, people would kind of shame me because I had bad handwriting 140 00:09:02.089 --> 00:09:05.930 growing up, that I was like lazy or sloppy or careless. 141 00:09:05.930 --> 00:09:09.570 I even had someone say I looked like a serial killer. And it turns out 142 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:13.370 that that's part of it. And it also was why I couldn't 143 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:17.240 open up, use a cans and jars. I have a 144 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.880 jar opener and I also have a can opener that's electric, not 145 00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:24.240 a manual one. I'm going to look at a manual one. It's like trying to 146 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.160 operate a spaceship. And that's why I couldn't unlock 147 00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:31.800 my front door to our home. And that, that also inspired my first article 148 00:09:31.800 --> 00:09:35.640 getting published because of that. Wow. Fascinating. Are you left-handed by 149 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:40.120 chance? Nope. Right-handed. You're right-handed. Okay. Cause I'm left-handed and 150 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.710 I can't tell my left, my right either. And I, Yeah, I have double 151 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:47.110 thinking. Someone says turn left, I go, left, is that left or is that? So 152 00:09:47.110 --> 00:09:47.830 it takes me 3 153 00:09:51.910 --> 00:09:55.590 seconds every single time. Yeah, it's not uncommon, not knowing left and 154 00:09:55.670 --> 00:09:59.630 right. I'm pretty bad at any binary choices like that 155 00:09:59.630 --> 00:10:03.550 where it's sort of, okay, up and down's okay. Up and down for some 156 00:10:03.550 --> 00:10:06.310 reason, up and down, but left and right isn't. But there are other things where 157 00:10:06.310 --> 00:10:10.310 I go, is it this or is it that? Is it that? Yeah, 158 00:10:11.270 --> 00:10:15.120 exactly. So that's not just a you thing. That's a common thing. That is, you 159 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.870 know, not very— Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I 160 00:10:18.870 --> 00:10:22.070 mean, yeah, a lot of these things are common for other people too. I 161 00:10:22.710 --> 00:10:26.550 mean, it's 1 in 5 people are diagnosed with having a learning disability 162 00:10:26.550 --> 00:10:30.510 or some kind of neurodivergence. It's common. But a 163 00:10:30.510 --> 00:10:34.150 lot of people don't think it's common. A lot of people think, well, that's not 164 00:10:34.150 --> 00:10:37.870 a lot of people, or it can't be that way, 165 00:10:37.870 --> 00:10:41.830 especially with having an inclusive practise like design and everything. 166 00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:45.690 A lot of times people might shame other people to thinking, 167 00:10:45.690 --> 00:10:48.970 well, people are just lazy now. So that's why we have an analogue clock, or 168 00:10:48.970 --> 00:10:52.670 that's why we have people don't want to write 169 00:10:52.670 --> 00:10:56.570 in cursive. I mean, that's another really hot topic that, especially in 170 00:10:56.570 --> 00:11:00.330 our state, that has come up with having a law with the students have to 171 00:11:00.330 --> 00:11:04.290 be taught that. But I think they should be exposed 172 00:11:04.290 --> 00:11:07.970 to the information, taught it. But if they're not getting it, let's move on to 173 00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:11.730 something else. That's just my own opinion though. Exactly. Otherwise, all they're doing 174 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:15.570 is shaming you by saying you can't. Let's sit down and say, 175 00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:18.170 well, what can you do then? And how can we make that work? Yeah, 176 00:11:19.130 --> 00:11:22.770 exactly. Yeah. Teach it, move on if it doesn't work. 177 00:11:22.770 --> 00:11:26.610 And yeah, exactly. If you need to learn about budgeting, if you need 178 00:11:26.610 --> 00:11:30.530 to learn about basic, you know, putting fuel 179 00:11:30.530 --> 00:11:34.170 in a gas in your gas tank to know how much to put in there, 180 00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:37.770 you need, you need a different way of working things out. Don't you? Yeah, 181 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:42.330 exactly. I agree 100%. Does technology help? I mean, we're living in a world 182 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.040 now. Which is vastly different from that you grew up. So you've got a phone 183 00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:49.880 in your pocket, you've got all your handbags, right? You've got AI, you've got 184 00:11:49.880 --> 00:11:53.800 voice recognition, you've got your Alexa, you've got your Google stuff, right? 185 00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:57.760 Does that make it easier? Does that make it easier? Absolutely. It has 186 00:11:57.760 --> 00:12:01.640 really improved my life with technology. I can remember even 187 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:05.400 in the beginnings when I learned how to type, it took me an extra— it 188 00:12:05.400 --> 00:12:08.880 took me a full year of typing, not just one semester, 189 00:12:09.380 --> 00:12:13.300 but That was the start of beginning to be able to— people could read what 190 00:12:13.460 --> 00:12:17.420 I wanted to say and that helped. And now we even have dictation software 191 00:12:17.420 --> 00:12:21.340 and I sometimes use that because sometimes my hands will— it's harder to type 192 00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:25.100 or I'll make more mistakes. So sometimes I might just use dictation software. And I 193 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:28.980 think when we get another computer, I'm like, okay, we're going to get a Chromebook 194 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:32.620 or we're going to get something that we can definitely do that. So I can— 195 00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:36.260 I just don't have to do that on my tablet, which I still love. But 196 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:40.260 that, you know, that, that's helpful. It's helpful to have battery-operated jar 197 00:12:40.340 --> 00:12:43.840 of potatoes. Openers and having a can opener that's 198 00:12:44.160 --> 00:12:47.800 electric that I don't have to have a manual if my hands can't do it. 199 00:12:47.800 --> 00:12:51.720 Having raised keys, that can be helpful too, to give me a little bit 200 00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:55.760 more stability when I open up a door or with the 201 00:12:57.520 --> 00:13:01.480 key. Just all kinds of— just having all those accommodations, having 202 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.440 a digital watch, having a Fitbit. Not only can I tell how many steps that 203 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.680 I've gotten, but I can tell you what time it is. I don't have to 204 00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:11.660 go and try to look at a clock. And that way I don't have to 205 00:13:11.660 --> 00:13:14.500 ask people, oh, what time is it? And they can say, oh, there's a clock 206 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.260 over there. I'm like, well, yeah, I can see there's a clock over there, but 207 00:13:18.260 --> 00:13:22.100 obviously if I can't tell what time it is. So I think that's 208 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:25.460 helpful. But there's so much even more. And that's some of the beauty that a 209 00:13:25.460 --> 00:13:29.420 lot of people may not realise that in our, in the States, 210 00:13:29.420 --> 00:13:33.340 we have the Americans with Disabilities Act. And there's a part of 211 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:37.300 that. Well, actually what the whole act is to make things accessible for people in 212 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:40.780 the community that have disabilities. So when they go into a public 213 00:13:41.180 --> 00:13:45.120 place, you can have seating or you can have an elevator 214 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.920 instead of using stairs. I mean, it's not a perfect one by any means 215 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.840 and it's one of those things, but the beauty is this helps benefit 216 00:13:52.920 --> 00:13:56.800 everybody, everyone, not just folks who have disabilities. So you might have a 217 00:13:56.800 --> 00:14:00.760 door that's automatic and that might be great, especially it's great 218 00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:04.160 if you're in a wheelchair, but it's also nice if a mom comes in and 219 00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:07.880 has a stroller and she can just press the button and the door opens. 220 00:14:08.040 --> 00:14:11.760 Or it can be helpful if you're somebody just had, you're walking out of the 221 00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:15.700 store and you have a lot of bags in your hands. That's helpful. Elevators are 222 00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:19.700 great. I mean, a lot of times people will wonder, well, why am I using 223 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:23.260 that? Because I can't use an escalator because I don't know when I get on 224 00:14:23.260 --> 00:14:26.780 or off. And that was an issue during COVID They didn't want to have— there 225 00:14:26.780 --> 00:14:30.580 was, there was a sign, and I wrote about this, that was just for people— 226 00:14:30.660 --> 00:14:34.260 that the elevator was just for people that had strollers or 227 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:38.020 disabilities. And I'm thinking, well, I have a disability. People can't see it 228 00:14:38.260 --> 00:14:42.260 though. So, but everybody can use a lot of these services. And I think that 229 00:14:42.260 --> 00:14:46.240 that's the thing with technology. This is not just something that benefits 230 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.160 person that is disabled, it also benefits somebody, 231 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.120 anybody. Yeah. Are there things in 232 00:14:54.400 --> 00:14:58.400 life that frustrate you? And what do I mean by that? We all live 233 00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:02.360 in our own mind. We live with our own capabilities. Do you 234 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:06.240 often think, I wish I could do that, or do you just accept that your 235 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.840 life is as is? There are things you just don't do and things you do 236 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.600 do. I think I've gotten to a point where I have accepted 237 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.760 that there's things I can't do and I find ways around it to be able 238 00:15:16.760 --> 00:15:19.700 to deal with that, to be able I'm able to live. And that really does 239 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:23.460 work for me. A lot of that with the technology, like, okay, I can't read 240 00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:27.380 the Facebook clock. That's fine. I'll have a digital watch on. 241 00:15:27.380 --> 00:15:31.260 I know that I cannot do math and I'm okay with that. And all 242 00:15:31.260 --> 00:15:34.780 the kids know, or will find out, that I can help you with anything at 243 00:15:34.780 --> 00:15:38.740 work, anything at school, except for math. And I'm okay with that. 244 00:15:38.740 --> 00:15:42.580 And sometimes I get some reactions like, "Oh, what do you mean you can't do 245 00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:46.580 math? You're a teacher." And I think that brings that humility that there's just some 246 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:49.930 things that people can't do. I've also 247 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:54.090 found that I'm all right with it, but when I run 248 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:57.930 into other people that aren't okay with that, that's where I 249 00:15:57.930 --> 00:16:01.610 think more of the disability happens. People are saying, well, what do you mean you 250 00:16:01.610 --> 00:16:05.450 can't tell your left from your right? Or why can't you do 251 00:16:05.450 --> 00:16:08.090 math? Or why can't you— can't somebody just teach 252 00:16:09.130 --> 00:16:12.890 you? Or why can't you drive? And they, 253 00:16:12.890 --> 00:16:16.860 they shame that, or they, they really It goes beyond just being 254 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:20.820 curious and it gets to that point where it's almost like bullying or 255 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:24.580 just thinking, or nice people who think, well, we can fix you. You just need 256 00:16:24.580 --> 00:16:28.220 to learn. We can, we can show you that way. And that leads to 257 00:16:28.380 --> 00:16:32.340 disappointment for that person. And it also leads to disappointment for me because 258 00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:36.180 somebody can't accept you for who I am. And I also 259 00:16:36.180 --> 00:16:39.660 found though that when I engage in activities that I 260 00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:44.510 love, I don't feel like I have a disability. I feel empowered. So 261 00:16:44.510 --> 00:16:48.470 when I'm out and I'm taking pictures and I don't have a ride to get 262 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:52.670 somewhere, which is, which happens, and that's okay too. I've made 263 00:16:52.670 --> 00:16:56.549 my life where I live in a central location. I'm very blessed to have a 264 00:16:56.549 --> 00:16:59.550 husband that can take me to work and a great coworker that could take me 265 00:16:59.550 --> 00:17:03.350 home. And I'm able to walk places, but I get 266 00:17:03.350 --> 00:17:07.190 that chance to literally stop and smell the roses when I don't have 267 00:17:07.190 --> 00:17:11.030 a ride. And I get to take pictures of flowers 268 00:17:11.030 --> 00:17:14.710 and notice details that other people would miss. So I can get in there and 269 00:17:14.710 --> 00:17:17.990 take a picture of a flower and people say, wow, you bring out those details 270 00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:21.870 that I would miss. And I realise in my life 271 00:17:22.830 --> 00:17:26.790 that if it's one of those things that, that there's so much beauty that I 272 00:17:26.790 --> 00:17:29.670 would miss if I was driving in a car, I wouldn't get to take that 273 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:33.510 picture of that flower. And I started to realise in my own life, there's so 274 00:17:33.510 --> 00:17:36.980 much beauty that I would miss with having a disability. 275 00:17:37.300 --> 00:17:41.220 If I did not get that chance to experience so many 276 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.140 things that it has taught me. And also with writing and with reading, 277 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:48.420 I don't feel like I have a disability when I read or I write. I 278 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:52.379 feel empowered and it gives me that voice. So even though you've 279 00:17:52.379 --> 00:17:55.940 got dyscalculia, you still understand what numbers 280 00:17:57.060 --> 00:18:00.900 are, right? You still understand. So if I put 2 apples on the 281 00:18:02.100 --> 00:18:06.040 table, you, you'd know there were 2 apples, would they? Yes, I can. I have 282 00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:09.960 a very, I have a basic understanding of math, but beyond a 283 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.120 basic elementary school level, I am not. 284 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.200 Yeah, that, that's where it pretty much ends at a very basic level. So 285 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.320 if you went out and took 5 photographs and someone said, how many photographs did 286 00:18:21.320 --> 00:18:24.440 you take? You'd say I took 5, or would you just say, I don't know 287 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:28.120 how many I just took? Well, generally I take a lot 288 00:18:28.120 --> 00:18:31.880 of stuff, so I can't tell you how many I took or how many 289 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:34.680 made the, made the cut for if I'm going to post something, 290 00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.100 but, um, Yeah, that might be something I would have to count unless I only 291 00:18:39.100 --> 00:18:42.500 took like a few that day, but mostly I take a lot more than 292 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.060 that. Yeah. I'd have to think about it for a second. Yeah. You're 293 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:51.660 not limited in your understanding of numbers and numeracy. You're just, as 294 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:55.380 you say, beyond basic school and beyond basic 295 00:18:55.780 --> 00:18:59.460 counting. Yeah, exactly. You must 296 00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:03.800 be quite relieved that photography's moved on because, you know, I look back When I 297 00:19:03.800 --> 00:19:07.800 got into photography in the, when I was 7 or 8 years old, it was 298 00:19:07.800 --> 00:19:11.360 all manual dials and you had to set the shutter speed and the f-stops and 299 00:19:11.360 --> 00:19:15.040 things like that. Now you just go click, don't you? Exactly. And I did not 300 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:19.040 get into it at that point because of that complicated process. I, well, part 301 00:19:19.040 --> 00:19:22.760 of it, I mean, I was also a lot younger too, but now it's, it's 302 00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:26.640 as simple as taking, I mean, I do have a nice camera, which we use 303 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:30.240 sometimes, but once again, we're getting the numbers. So when I put the memory card 304 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.030 in, it all thinks in numbers and I'm like, this is confusing. And. I 305 00:19:34.030 --> 00:19:38.030 like having the digital, like with the phone. And I also like 306 00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:42.190 using my tablet with that because I'm able to take a picture and it fits 307 00:19:42.190 --> 00:19:45.910 right in my bag and I can just take one real 308 00:19:45.910 --> 00:19:49.910 simple and it's convenient. You just go in, you see something and you just take 309 00:19:49.910 --> 00:19:53.550 out your phone or that, and you, you're able to capture that image in there. 310 00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:56.990 So I love being able to do that. So it has changed too. And that's 311 00:19:56.990 --> 00:20:00.510 also making that accessible to other people, maybe even people who think I'm not 312 00:20:00.510 --> 00:20:04.430 a photographer. Well, just take the picture. You never know. You've got 313 00:20:04.430 --> 00:20:08.190 a fairly impressive website. Did you design that yourself or co-author 314 00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:11.790 it? I have a template, but that was, that's me who does 315 00:20:11.790 --> 00:20:15.150 the designing and puts the pictures and the colours 316 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:19.430 and writes it and maintains that. But thank you. Yeah, it's fabulous. 317 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:23.350 You've got some lovely photographs there. I think there's a beautiful one of a 318 00:20:23.350 --> 00:20:26.910 yellow butterfly and a purple flower, isn't there? There's a 319 00:20:27.630 --> 00:20:31.310 really striking way you capture that difference in colours and the Some of 320 00:20:31.310 --> 00:20:35.110 the landscapes you got as well, the sunsets are quite impactful 321 00:20:35.110 --> 00:20:37.630 and striking, aren't they? Thank you so 322 00:20:38.750 --> 00:20:42.750 much. So do you, do you go out specifically to take photographs or 323 00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:46.350 do you, uh, you just happen, happen to take a good shot when you're out? 324 00:20:46.350 --> 00:20:50.270 It depends on the day or the, or the year. Sometimes my husband and I 325 00:20:50.270 --> 00:20:54.070 will travel to a botanical garden and I'll definitely take a lot of pictures 326 00:20:54.070 --> 00:20:57.830 of flowers. Right now we're having a lot of orchid shows and I love being 327 00:20:57.830 --> 00:21:01.070 able to do that. So sometimes we'll go to museums and it's that, that's a 328 00:21:01.070 --> 00:21:04.930 little more specific. I'll be a little more like, okay, I definitely 329 00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:08.650 have a lot out there, but sometimes I might just be out on a 330 00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:12.050 walk and I'll be going to the gym or I'll be going to grab a 331 00:21:12.050 --> 00:21:16.010 cup of coffee or running a few errands. And I might see a 332 00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:20.450 rose that in one of the neighbourhoods that I know is blooming, or just sometimes 333 00:21:20.450 --> 00:21:24.090 it's a surprise or in the summertime, we'll see a lot of butterflies and I 334 00:21:24.090 --> 00:21:27.690 might just capture, I'll see that butterfly and I get that chance to capture it. 335 00:21:27.690 --> 00:21:31.550 And sometimes it comes in unexpected places. I can remember. In the early 336 00:21:31.870 --> 00:21:35.750 days, I would have— I had a moth that was on our main street on 337 00:21:35.750 --> 00:21:39.630 the sidewalk, and I got to capture that picture of that moth. 338 00:21:39.630 --> 00:21:42.910 Or last summer, I was on my way to the gym and there was a 339 00:21:42.990 --> 00:21:46.789 beautiful moth laying on our sidewalk, so I got a chance to take a picture 340 00:21:46.789 --> 00:21:50.430 of that. Sometimes it might be a flower that's 341 00:21:50.430 --> 00:21:54.230 just growing, or somebody has some really neat decorations in their 342 00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:58.110 yard for, for some holidays. We don't get as much towards winter. 343 00:21:58.110 --> 00:22:01.830 We have pretty cold winters, but I'm looking forward to spring. 344 00:22:01.910 --> 00:22:05.550 I definitely love all the flowers that start to bloom and we just get to 345 00:22:05.550 --> 00:22:08.950 see how things change. And sometimes we'll get some winter shots too, 346 00:22:09.590 --> 00:22:13.270 but sometimes it's planned, but other times there's just an unexpected 347 00:22:13.350 --> 00:22:17.270 surprise. And I always love capturing those. In addition to you talking 348 00:22:17.270 --> 00:22:21.150 about technology just now, do you think the world is becoming more aware? I 349 00:22:21.150 --> 00:22:24.430 go back to when I was at school a long time ago, and probably even 350 00:22:24.430 --> 00:22:28.000 when you were growing up, as a young person, there was very 351 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:31.400 little understanding around neurodiversity, 352 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.360 dyslexia, dyscalculia, ASD, ADHD, all these various terms that 353 00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:38.960 people go— everyone knows about today. If you go on TikTok, 354 00:22:39.040 --> 00:22:42.920 everyone, everyone's fully aware. Go back 20, 30 years, people 355 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.560 just weren't aware, were they? No one's fault, they just 356 00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:50.680 weren't. Right. People were not aware of a lot of things with that. Even when 357 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.480 I was diagnosed with a learning disability, it was a blanket term. Nobody 358 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.080 said dyscalculia. No, I mean, even today 359 00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:01.360 it's specific learning disability, but if you have it in math, that 360 00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:05.320 is dyscalculia. People didn't know about that. We certainly didn't know 361 00:23:05.320 --> 00:23:09.320 about autism as much as we do now. I can look back on my classes 362 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:13.160 growing up and I had students in learning support that didn't 363 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:17.160 have learning disabilities. They had autism. I mean, just with some of the behaviours 364 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:21.120 and nobody knew what really to do with that. People 365 00:23:21.570 --> 00:23:25.410 definitely were not as accepting of other people that had that. It was 366 00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:29.370 not considered to be acceptable to have that. People would 367 00:23:29.370 --> 00:23:32.570 tell me, oh, maybe you don't want to talk about having that. And there's that 368 00:23:32.570 --> 00:23:36.530 shame and that stigma. And I can remember going to my writing group and telling 369 00:23:36.530 --> 00:23:40.450 people I had a learning disability as a teenager. And I'm very lucky to have 370 00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:44.290 that group. 30, uh, 20-some years later, we still meet once a month to talk 371 00:23:44.290 --> 00:23:48.250 about our writing. And they told me when at the beginning, well, you should write 372 00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:50.800 about having a learning disability. And I was like, oh no. I don't want to 373 00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:54.760 talk about that. And I wrote some really bad poetry, and people didn't know 374 00:23:54.760 --> 00:23:58.600 a lot about things like that, and it just was not acceptable to talk about. 375 00:23:58.600 --> 00:24:02.560 Now it's a lot better. And furthermore, people, as they didn't 376 00:24:02.560 --> 00:24:06.359 know about that, there wasn't a lot of groups. I can remember every single 377 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:10.080 thing about learning disabilities I read about was based upon being a white 378 00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:12.280 male, and they all had reading 379 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:17.520 disabilities. Now with the groups on Facebook or 380 00:24:17.520 --> 00:24:20.840 other virtual groups that are online, I got to meet 381 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:25.200 people that, that are female that have dyscalculia or male too. I mean, we, 382 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.760 we meet a lot of people. It doesn't discriminate against anything with 383 00:24:29.320 --> 00:24:32.880 that. And there's people that have difficulties with math. There's people that 384 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.880 have difficulties with, they don't drive and there's people 385 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.720 who do. And that, that's great too. And I think it's just meeting a lot 386 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.680 of different people with that. And our awareness is much more, 387 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.240 a lot broadened. A lot more modern than it was years ago. Yeah. But both 388 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.000 of our two children were diagnosed with 389 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.720 dyslexia. Yeah. Late in their school career, towards the end of 390 00:24:57.560 --> 00:25:00.840 it. Especially our son, probably our son was a bit earlier than that. We realised 391 00:25:00.840 --> 00:25:04.840 that he wasn't learning his alphabet. He wasn't, 392 00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:08.760 his reading age was stuck a couple of years old. He wasn't engaging in that 393 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:12.170 sort of way. And it took us a long while for us us as parents 394 00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:16.050 to realise there was, this was, this was a 395 00:25:16.130 --> 00:25:19.810 thing, you know, our children are what, 30 years old. This is 30 years 396 00:25:20.610 --> 00:25:24.570 ago. There was not the immediate support. We were left trying to find out what's 397 00:25:24.570 --> 00:25:28.450 going on here. The schools weren't willing to really engage. And it 398 00:25:28.450 --> 00:25:31.730 made us realise that we as parents weren't prepared for this. And I think 399 00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:36.250 today, 30 years on, or even 20 years on, 5, 10 400 00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:40.180 years ago, People are, parents are much more aware and 401 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:43.940