Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold
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Joanne Lockwood: in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode
Joanne Lockwood: 217. With the title Leading with Cultural
Joanne Lockwood: Intelligence. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Lucy
Joanne Lockwood: Butters. Lucy is an author, cultural intelligence master
Joanne Lockwood: facilitator, and founder of Elembee, who works with
Joanne Lockwood: individuals and organisations to strengthen inclusive leadership, intercultural
Joanne Lockwood: competence, and collaboration in a globalized, complex
Joanne Lockwood: world. And when I asked Lucy to describe her superpower, she said that is
Joanne Lockwood: her ability to build strong, supportive networks and communities and to
Joanne Lockwood: connect people in ways that help them thrive, whilst always being willing to
Joanne Lockwood: ask for support and bring others together with clarity and
Joanne Lockwood: heart. Hello Lucy, welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show.
Lucy Butters: Thank you, that was a lovely introduction, Joanne, appreciate
Lucy Butters: it. Glad to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely made up to pieces because
Joanne Lockwood: you've been in this game, I think you said, for since
Joanne Lockwood: 2013, I think you said.
Lucy Butters: 2013.
Joanne Lockwood: Without giving your age away, that's 13 years working in cultural
Joanne Lockwood: intelligence.
Lucy Butters: Yeah. And before that I was kind of doing so, but without the
Lucy Butters: language. You know, it's, um, I was asked in
Lucy Butters: 2013 by the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education to design
Lucy Butters: a course in cultural intelligence, and I thought, I've never heard of that
Lucy Butters: language. But having my own business which supported internationalisation
Lucy Butters: in universities, I thought, I'll go and do that, because you think you've got to say yes
Lucy Butters: when you've got your own business. And then I discovered about it, and there just happened to be a
Lucy Butters: certification going on with Dr. David
Lucy Butters: Livermore. Anyone who's done any thinking about cultural
Lucy Butters: intelligence will be familiar with that name. In Edinburgh, just quite
Lucy Butters: close to me in Glasgow, so I had to go. And on discovering it, I thought,
Lucy Butters: yeah, this approach makes sense to me.
Joanne Lockwood: So I— cultural intelligence is not this new modern woke thing that's
Joanne Lockwood: sort of come out of the woodwork in the last 2 or 3 years to
Joanne Lockwood: disadvantage the super majority of people out there, is, is about helping
Joanne Lockwood: people understand more about different cultures. Is that, is that what it's all
Joanne Lockwood: about?
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And the original research started in the year 2000
Lucy Butters: by, um, now Professor Sunang in
Lucy Butters: Singapore. And she had been involved— this, you talked about showing
Lucy Butters: our ages, this, if you remember this, this shows it even
Lucy Butters: more. But the 90s, everyone was concerned about the millennium bug, the idea that when we hit
Lucy Butters: 2000, All the systems that relied on computers would kind of
Lucy Butters: implode and different things wouldn't work. And lots of people were involved in how
Lucy Butters: we respond to that because people had been saving date data
Lucy Butters: differently in their systems. And in some ways, Sun Ang was
Lucy Butters: involved. I don't really know how, but her observation was that often you were bringing
Lucy Butters: the brightest people in their field together from across the
Lucy Butters: world. And yet together they were often
Lucy Butters: suboptimal. You know, has a decision been
Lucy Butters: made? Who's to take that forward? What really did we
Lucy Butters: agree? Did we not agree? And it got her fascinated in what
Lucy Butters: sits below the surface in that kind of cultural piece that
Lucy Butters: would enable people to communicate and work better
Lucy Butters: together. So the, the research is quite—
Lucy Butters: over 2 and a half decades it's been going on for.
Joanne Lockwood: I was working in the IT field at the time. I was working for a bank in London at
Joanne Lockwood: the time. Well, actually just before the time. So at the time, I think we look back on
Joanne Lockwood: it and think, well, that was a huge overhype and people worried about their fridge freezer stopping
Joanne Lockwood: working overnight or their microwave cutting out or something. Uh, and it was just a big damn squib,
Joanne Lockwood: but I think that was down to the fact it was
Joanne Lockwood: overhyped. That actually everybody out there who had systems with, with
Joanne Lockwood: two-digit date codes actually did something about it.
Lucy Butters: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it wasn't— we didn't just sleepwalk into this, the new millennia, and watch these dates roll
Joanne Lockwood: over and everything crashed. So yeah, I think we did take it seriously at the
Joanne Lockwood: time.
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And I think there was also that bit of
Lucy Butters: memory. You talk about fridge freezers and microwaves, there are also nuclear
Lucy Butters: plants. You know, there was big serious stuff that when you looked at some of the,
Lucy Butters: um, elements linked to it, you realise the importance of us
Lucy Butters: being able to interact well and communicate and agree things
Lucy Butters: together.
Joanne Lockwood: I think, I think the actual couple of years leading up to the year 2000, I actually
Joanne Lockwood: started my own business. And one of the things I was doing was selling Y2K
Joanne Lockwood: audits. And I was, I was running around people's computers with a little floppy disk,
Joanne Lockwood: putting it in, switching it on, and it would give a, yes, this one's
Joanne Lockwood: okay. And I'd be putting green stickers on these little— and I was charging a fortune just to go around and, and run this
Joanne Lockwood: little programme on people's systems. Tick, yes, tick, tick,
Joanne Lockwood: tick.
Lucy Butters: I believe lots of people in IT made good money at the time, which wasn't
Lucy Butters: the field I was in. I was in education. Yeah,
Lucy Butters: absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: I was, I suppose, being IT literate at the time, I appreciated the potential risk, but
Joanne Lockwood: to the average small business, it was, it was negligible. I mean, today it's a completely different
Joanne Lockwood: world. All the systems are online, it's all SaaS systems, you know, very little investment in the local
Joanne Lockwood: machine. So, Yeah, your provider is going to sort most of it
Joanne Lockwood: out. But yeah, at the time it was, yeah, it was interesting. But going back to where we started this conversation,
Joanne Lockwood: it's really interesting that, uh, the master practitioner of, of cultural intelligence
Joanne Lockwood: used that as a, a lever, if you like, or an instigator to see the different
Joanne Lockwood: ways people reacted to situations.
Lucy Butters: Yeah, it got— so the research was what enabled some people to thrive
Lucy Butters: and be successful whilst others really struggle and fail across
Lucy Butters: culture. Um, and they discovered there are 4
Lucy Butters: capabilities. That are consistently high with individuals and
Lucy Butters: organisations that work well with cultural difference, and
Lucy Butters: together they called them cultural intelligence. And so there's those
Lucy Butters: 4 capabilities I'll talk about in a moment, but it's also
Lucy Butters: rooted in that intelligence theories, so it's really
Lucy Butters: grounded. So, you know, we used to have IQ until in the '60s
Lucy Butters: somebody went, wait a minute, are you really intelligent if all you can do is think, what about
Lucy Butters: your ability to use that thinking or your motivation
Lucy Butters: to use it? So we came up with that construct— I say we, I had nothing to
Lucy Butters: do with it whatsoever— but they came up with that construct of
Lucy Butters: multifaceted intelligences, of which emotional
Lucy Butters: intelligence, I think, is the most well-known. Cultural intelligence, I think, in
Lucy Butters: this world where there's so much movement, where things
Lucy Butters: are changing in all sorts of different
Lucy Butters: ways. There's been research that shows it's more important than IQ
Lucy Butters: and EQ in our complex, very
Lucy Butters: changing— both organisations and societies and for
Lucy Butters: people. So it's kind of, it's rooted in those
Lucy Butters: theories. And the capabilities, I'd said I would come back to
Lucy Butters: them. So we've got motivation. What's your motivation to even want to be effective
Lucy Butters: working with this person or cross this bridge? What's our
Lucy Butters: knowledge about our similarities or difference? And crucially, self-knowledge, I think, is
Lucy Butters: a massive piece in here. What creates a rub for you when you hear certain things
Lucy Butters: or witness certain things, or when people don't respond— these different
Lucy Butters: things. The metacognition piece, the strategy, thinking about our
Lucy Butters: thinking, how aware of we— of what's going on with others, with
Lucy Butters: ourself. We said this is leadership, the
Lucy Butters: stats on leaders being self-aware are very, very low because they
Lucy Butters: often don't get feedback. So that bit about our awareness is so important,
Lucy Butters: and checking and planning. And then of course, I think the bit that's the hardest
Lucy Butters: piece is changing behaviors, you know, that, that
Lucy Butters: bit. When I was interviewing people from a book, that was the capability that
Lucy Butters: most of these people who were experts around the world in cultural intelligence said
Lucy Butters: this is the capability that was what was hardest for them
Lucy Butters: personally. And I think lots of us, we get a bit of knowledge and
Lucy Butters: we think, woo-hoo, and I know what to do, you know, I know how to react with this group
Lucy Butters: of people over there. But actually, knowledge doesn't take away that
Lucy Butters: rub when you come up against something different. And so we often
Lucy Butters: go back into our own ways of doing— I What
Joanne Lockwood: you're saying there is part of this means you have to be
Joanne Lockwood: highly cognizant all of the
Joanne Lockwood: time. You can't, you can't be consciously inclusive by
Joanne Lockwood: default. It's an active state of mind, constantly checking yourself
Joanne Lockwood: as to who aren't I thinking about? What, what's going on in this
Joanne Lockwood: situation? Subroutine going on in your head, really, really testing out these
Joanne Lockwood: scenarios. That requires a lot of effort for
Joanne Lockwood: people. And people generally default back to
Joanne Lockwood: the comfort lane. This is just, I'll just go back to my default
Joanne Lockwood: position. And it's not until you, you put yourself into this heightened state of conscious awareness
Joanne Lockwood: of what's going on, self-awareness, awareness situation, that you can start to
Joanne Lockwood: manage and self-regulate. But most people don't want to do
Joanne Lockwood: that. And I think that's what you're saying there is this rub, this, this, this thing, people are coming across, the hardest
Joanne Lockwood: bit is actually putting all the strategy, the knowledge, and the drive and everything together to
Joanne Lockwood: actually take logical action.
Lucy Butters: I love what you said there, Jo, that bit about
Lucy Butters: intention. You have to be intentionally
Lucy Butters: inclusive. I think there's an awful lot of it, tok
Lucy Butters: tok. If only we were X, Y, and Z, then we'd be
Lucy Butters: inclusive. But actually, our contexts, our organizations, our
Lucy Butters: societies keep changing. And so there's always something
Lucy Butters: new. And I think once you experience the
Lucy Butters: benefits of being more inclusive— so for example, on an individual
Lucy Butters: level, I'm aware I hold a lack of trust for much longer than I used
Lucy Butters: to. I used to think, I'm not very sure what's going on here, so back
Lucy Butters: away. Whereas now I'll still feel that, oh, there's something that I'm not
Lucy Butters: aware of, but I can explore it. And it's led to me, for
Lucy Butters: example, do some fantastic work in interesting places in the world because
Lucy Butters: I can hold on to that and explore the opportunity for
Lucy Butters: longer. And I think once people experience that
Lucy Butters: there's benefits to inclusion, then you can kind
Lucy Butters: of get drawn in and You can't do it all the
Lucy Butters: time. You're absolutely right. We need, we need downtime. However, when we're at the
Lucy Butters: start, for example, of projects, of programs, whatever, that's
Lucy Butters: a really crucial time to be really paying attention and being really
Lucy Butters: intentional.
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion, or DEI, EDI, however you want to do it, is getting a bit of a bad,
Joanne Lockwood: bad rap at the moment. You know, we saw a political party come out and saying if they
Joanne Lockwood: ever got into government, Scrap the Equality Act and all this stuff we're doing
Joanne Lockwood: now is, is a waste of time, it's a waste of money, it's
Joanne Lockwood: denying the best people the opportunities, it's promoting people beyond their
Joanne Lockwood: capability. And that's got everyone, you know, obviously the purpose of that, that,
Joanne Lockwood: that news article was to stir debate and to, and to try and control the
Joanne Lockwood: narrative. Yeah, let's not be, let's not think it is actually a real
Joanne Lockwood: thing. So where's it, where's it all going wrong?
Lucy Butters: I don't know if it is going wrong. I, I wonder if there's a reaction against it, which is
Lucy Butters: different. And one of the things that cultural intelligence, you know, you, you've got
Lucy Butters: to want it. Same as inclusion, you've got to want
Lucy Butters: it.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, the first one is drive, isn't it? You have to, you have to want
Joanne Lockwood: it.
Lucy Butters: In the young, for example, numbers who have the expectation is much
Lucy Butters: higher. It's looking, as I said, societies keep
Lucy Butters: changing. And obviously in the States, you know, we have people
Lucy Butters: who are in, have been in EDI roles for years, are
Lucy Butters: struggling. However, What I think is the need for people
Lucy Butters: to thrive, however you want to describe that, is always
Lucy Butters: important. You know, I think we were— before we came on, before in our chat,
Lucy Butters: I was talking about my great-auntie Ruth, who had always said, where there's house
Lucy Butters: room, there's— where there's heart room, there's house room, about us visiting all the
Lucy Butters: time. Now, my great-auntie Ruth, who's no longer in the world, um, but
Lucy Butters: She was dux of her school, you know, the person who won the prize for the brightest
Lucy Butters: person there. But when she left school, she went into service because that's what people from
Lucy Butters: her background did. All her grandkids, they're doctors,
Lucy Butters: they're radio producers, they're, they're bright, bright
Lucy Butters: people. And I think what a waste that this super bright woman cleaned
Lucy Butters: people's stuff for years, because that's what you did when you were from that
Lucy Butters: background. Even you say about, you know, getting the best people into jobs,
Lucy Butters: you've We've got to have things like the Equalities Act that enables people
Lucy Butters: from different backgrounds. I agree that we need the best people in the jobs, and
Lucy Butters: there's lots of people who could be that best
Lucy Butters: person. You know, they look very different, they sound
Lucy Butters: different.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think some of the problem is that we've, we've ended up disenfranchising people
Joanne Lockwood: through some of these language, some of the
Joanne Lockwood: identities? And I mean, we haven't put enough cultural intelligence into
Joanne Lockwood: understanding people who are seen to be the default
Joanne Lockwood: privileged. And then we've just written them off as being okay and having it
Joanne Lockwood: all. We need to create equity down here, but we've, we've kind of,
Joanne Lockwood: we've, we've forgotten that we're chipping away at somebody else's equity.
Lucy Butters: I think there are things like that. And I was thinking recently about, um, the
Lucy Butters: Glasgow Film Festival is starting this week and it's
Lucy Butters: opening with the film Everyone to Kenmuir Street, which is about a spontaneous a
Lucy Butters: civil protest about a dawn raid on people, you
Lucy Butters: know, people who'd immigrated. And the people created a
Lucy Butters: shield around it, that— around the Home Office
Lucy Butters: van. And so it ended up that 5 years ago, those men are
Lucy Butters: still in Glasgow. But next to that narrative, you've also
Lucy Butters: got the narrative of people protesting
Lucy Butters: outside asylum hotels that are being used for people seeking
Lucy Butters: asylum. And so it's kind of the two— you can't say one is Scotland and
Lucy Butters: one isn't because the two examples
Lucy Butters: coexist. And I think often when there's tension, you get that
Lucy Butters: fight or flight or maybe freeze kind of, um,
Lucy Butters: reactions. And there's bits about understanding where
Lucy Butters: people are with identity that I think sometimes space isn't
Lucy Butters: created for that conversation. I volunteered for a number of years with
Lucy Butters: an organisation called Saliha, which was set up post-9/11 about
Lucy Butters: establishing constructive dialogue between students in Arab countries and
Lucy Butters: students in America. We worked with people over a semester, and it was fantastic
Lucy Butters: because you sort of moved from arguing the position
Lucy Butters: to thinking, who were you when you started to think that? How do people around you
Lucy Butters: think? So you start to develop a sense of who this person,
Lucy Butters: or who this community, is in terms of things like
Lucy Butters: identity. And I think often that time and
Lucy Butters: curiosity isn't taken, and it creates barriers
Lucy Butters: later. You know, it's like if you don't create scenarios where you can get people
Lucy Butters: on board, it creates problems later. And we often rush to
Lucy Butters: solve issues. And that would be, if we're talking about leaders, I often hear about
Lucy Butters: leaders and they rush to solve without sometimes
Lucy Butters: thinking, well, how can I empower this group here? Think about
Lucy Butters: that.
Joanne Lockwood: You, you touched on a couple of times around the first, uh,
Joanne Lockwood: capability is, is, is the drive. You've gotta wanna find out, you've gotta
Joanne Lockwood: want to be more culturally
Joanne Lockwood: intelligent. You gotta be, have that self-will. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta want to do
Joanne Lockwood: something. I can speak from my own experience that, you know, going back in my
Joanne Lockwood: life 15 years ago, I didn't care. I, I, I didn't think I had to, I didn't need
Joanne Lockwood: to. It's only when you, something happens to you in your life with you're getting older,
Joanne Lockwood: your eyesight fails, you can't hear as well, you're stiffer, you can't walk as quick,
Joanne Lockwood: you need an escalator. And then you develop other marginalised
Joanne Lockwood: characteristics, whatever they may be, then you start to realise and appreciate that you need
Joanne Lockwood: to find out more. And I started working with some charities around, um,
Joanne Lockwood: deafness and hard of— being hard of hearing and hearing
Joanne Lockwood: loops. And I spent a lot of time just finding out about the different dimensions
Joanne Lockwood: to being deaf and hard of hearing. And I just thought, well, everyone lip reads or sign
Joanne Lockwood: writes and you got this, And it turns out this is a
Joanne Lockwood: multifaceted characteristic. And at that point there was, I think, was my first
Joanne Lockwood: venture into the drive to find out more about a different community, a different
Joanne Lockwood: culture, the deaf community. And if you've never come across that, that, that
Joanne Lockwood: thing that sparks you, you're always just going to keep walking on by. That's, that's where we are really, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? To get the CQ into people's heads as something that is Actually,
Joanne Lockwood: it benefits me as well.
Lucy Butters: I think it's definitely something needed. I had been working with the
Lucy Butters: British Council, soft diplomacy, and it really changed
Lucy Butters: my focus out to the world. So when I first did— when I set up my own
Lucy Butters: business in 2010, I was very clear I still wanted that kind of international
Lucy Butters: possibility as part of that. So I thought my CQ drive would be really
Lucy Butters: high. Certainly my highest
Lucy Butters: capability. When I first did an assessment in 2013, it was
Lucy Butters: okay, but it wasn't all that, and it wasn't my highest capability,
Lucy Butters: and it really made me pause and
Lucy Butters: reflect and think about, you know, dunnae, diversity when
Lucy Butters: it's kind of like me. And I think that's quite an uncomfortable
Lucy Butters: question. So things like, for example, politics was a space I wasn't comfortable
Lucy Butters: in. I'm now much more comfortable in that
Lucy Butters: space. Like you talking about hearing and the personal
Lucy Butters: experience, absolutely. And as we go through life, so, you know, I had a week where I
Lucy Butters: found out I was expecting triplets, and when I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis,
Lucy Butters: and you definitely— and 20 years ago now— you definitely discover through lots of
Lucy Butters: that things that, you know, trying to get about the physical
Lucy Butters: environment with that with 3 babies, you realise that nothing
Lucy Butters: is made for you. And people who park up on pavements, for example, you
Lucy Butters: realise that's really unkind for all sorts of different
Lucy Butters: people. So it kind of— absolutely personal experience
Lucy Butters: shifts focus and makes you realize— I was at a—
Lucy Butters: the Citizens Theatre in Glasgow has been reopened
Lucy Butters: recently. It's meant to be for everyone, you know, totally
Lucy Butters: accessible. But I went in and the only
Lucy Butters: staircase in this theatre space was up the middle with no
Lucy Butters: handrails. So I don't really have very good depth perception, I don't have very good
Lucy Butters: balance. The idea of going down, let alone up, a
Lucy Butters: staircase with no handrail— and I was like, you know, they think they're accessible but they've got
Lucy Butters: spaces if you're a wheelchair user and then and
Lucy Butters: then be able-bodied, please. Nothing in between. And I thought, who exactly, as you were saying, who have
Lucy Butters: they spoken to?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that, that's one of the— I think I discovered a shortfall in the
Joanne Lockwood: Equality Act is that to be classed as a disabled or a
Joanne Lockwood: disability, it has to be something that is perceived over more than one
Joanne Lockwood: year. So for anybody who's like my wife, just had a total knee replacement,
Joanne Lockwood: or, and we've had some surgery and are— or got a family member who's going through
Joanne Lockwood: some cancer treatment. These are temporary disabilities and you're not entitled to
Joanne Lockwood: disabled badges or parking or certain other benefits and
Joanne Lockwood: things. So sometimes the laws we have are very
Joanne Lockwood: binary and absolute. You either qualify or you don't qualify. Yet you still
Joanne Lockwood: experience, although it may necessarily on a long-term, but maybe a temporary basis,
Joanne Lockwood: the same impact as someone who suffers it long-term. So we, we've gotta be careful here that we're not designing systems just for the
Joanne Lockwood: law. Design systems to, yeah, the equity to enable people to
Joanne Lockwood: succeed. And I think that cultural intelligence aspect to understand how it
Joanne Lockwood: impacts people who are— have that characteristic, albeit
Joanne Lockwood: temporary.
Lucy Butters: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, MS, it's temporary, often,
Lucy Butters: symptoms. So it never comes under that, anything that I've had comes up, but
Lucy Butters: sometimes even walking is quite problematic, but there's nothing within
Lucy Butters: that. So as you say, and I think generally things are
Lucy Butters: messy, but the law is binary,
Lucy Butters: you know, so we look to the law sometimes, but actually for organizations, they need
Lucy Butters: to think about in this more messy situation where
Lucy Butters: we want people to contribute well because we want to achieve whatever it is
Lucy Butters: that we are trying to achieve, how do we design things well in
Lucy Butters: this? For this context, for this group of people
Lucy Butters: in our policies and procedures, which can't
Lucy Butters: upend the law, but they can add nuance into
Lucy Butters: it.
Joanne Lockwood: Hmm. So, when we talk about cultural intelligence, I, I always think one of the biggest mistakes is, is the word culture
Joanne Lockwood: because people latch on to that meaning someone's faith,
Joanne Lockwood: someone's race, someone's ethnicity, those kind of sort of things we associate with being
Joanne Lockwood: culture. And I, I just touched on, you know, the deaf community and the culture of
Joanne Lockwood: deafness. Us. So we, we often think culture is just these, yeah, it's, it's someone
Joanne Lockwood: else's music, someone else's dress codes, but cultural intelligence is actually around
Joanne Lockwood: the culture of menopause, the culture of feminism, the culture of wherever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. There's a whole load of little micro cultures that the
Joanne Lockwood: cultural intelligence also allows you to use the same capabilities to explore those as
Joanne Lockwood: well, doesn't it?
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And one of the things I often start with people is
Lucy Butters: even thinking about what they mean by the word
Lucy Butters: culture. You know, that's often a— and always so many
Lucy Butters: questions, and typically everybody's got a different word that they would maybe use
Lucy Butters: to describe it. And so instantly you see how complex it
Lucy Butters: is. And so for me, cultural intelligence is around navigating that
Lucy Butters: complexity. And I think as soon as we get into groups,
Lucy Butters: we start creating culture. You know, who gets heard
Lucy Butters: here? Do we joke? Do we snack? You know, all these tiny little different
Lucy Butters: details that if we keep meeting or keep communicating in
Lucy Butters: whatever networks we've set up, we create a kind of
Lucy Butters: culture. So in every place, as you say, there's lots of
Lucy Butters: subcultures. And in organizations, you know, that could be— I remember
Lucy Butters: reading something about how we learn. I think it was a— Kolb was one of the
Lucy Butters: authors. And it was, you know, the most important thing— they were looking at
Lucy Butters: postgraduates, people doing a second degree, and the most important thing and what
Lucy Butters: people like, why people like the approach you did, was about their first
Lucy Butters: degree. So how we've learned to think about things more so than
Lucy Butters: nationality, age, gender, you know, these different things that, as you say,
Lucy Butters: we often instantly jump to when we're thinking about
Lucy Butters: Culture.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Uh, and I think that can be seen as a bit of a turnoff and it's just trying
Joanne Lockwood: to think about what's my culture as a white
Joanne Lockwood: person? Are white people allowed to have
Joanne Lockwood: culture?
Lucy Butters: Everybody, everybody has culture, Joe. It's all— it's—
Lucy Butters: yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But, but we look at some of the nationalisms going on, you know, being Scottish, you're allowed to
Joanne Lockwood: be nationalistic. You're allowed to have the saltire, you're allowed to have the
Joanne Lockwood: St. Andrew's flag everywhere. You're allowed to be proudly
Joanne Lockwood: Scottish. I think there's always been a stigma about being overly proud to be
Joanne Lockwood: English. And you know, you could be Welsh, you could be Scottish, you could be Irish, but English is just seen as the
Joanne Lockwood: oppressor and you should never be proud to be English. And I think that's what's come out of some of the, the
Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric coming out of some, some circles at the moment is why can't we fly the English
Joanne Lockwood: flag whenever we feel like it? We can fly the Ukrainian flag, we can fly the Palestinian
Joanne Lockwood: flag. Why can't we fly the English flag or St. George's Cross
Joanne Lockwood: occasionally? And I think sometimes the British
Joanne Lockwood: nation, if nations have, have been split and the English have had a, a,
Joanne Lockwood: a poor rap on, on, on having it, you know, to be
Joanne Lockwood: nationalistic.
Lucy Butters: And what would you like to see?
Joanne Lockwood: I'm proudly British. I don't class myself English. I wasn't born in this
Joanne Lockwood: country. So yeah, I, I don't, uh, I, I don't, I'm not, even though I've lived in England for
Joanne Lockwood: all my, all of my life, except for when I worked in Scotland for a while. Um, I'm just curious, you know, it's—
Joanne Lockwood: maybe this is where we're disenfranchising people, where people see that they can do this, but why can't
Joanne Lockwood: we?
Lucy Butters: Yeah. And I'm unclear, 'cause I'm, I'm
Lucy Butters: married to an Englishman and it's kind of, um, and his family
Lucy Butters: who I would see a lot of the Scottish sensibilities
Lucy Butters: of Scotland to England, but I see them against France and Germany, you know, it's the same
Lucy Butters: thing. And I think there is something about power, but there's something about
Lucy Butters: unravelling that and thinking, what do you want to
Lucy Butters: be? How do you want to be seen? How— what do you want this to—
Lucy Butters: how do you want this to be seen? Because sometimes, although you're saying it's okay for
Lucy Butters: flags to be used, now I live in Glasgow, if you look at our main football teams, you
Lucy Butters: will never see a saltire, or rarely see it. So it's kind of—
Lucy Butters: it's much more complex than, I'll just say this about Scotland, or I'll just
Lucy Butters: say this England, and that's what I mean, there's a complexity in
Lucy Butters: there. So how do we open up these conversations and make it—
Lucy Butters: different things okay? And what I hear you saying is about the disenfranchising,
Lucy Butters: who's been disenfranchised, and I think that's
Lucy Butters: important. And I also think it's important to think
Lucy Butters: at the moment there's a lot of that being used in a power way to shut
Lucy Butters: down the conversations. You're not accepting my voice, therefore—
Lucy Butters: but actually that's being shouted. So it's, it's, as I say, it's just always
Lucy Butters: complex, and I'm always curious. I wrote a post on LinkedIn the other
Lucy Butters: day. I'd been on the train, and there was two women sitting opposite me immersed
Lucy Butters: in books, which is quite rare in itself to see people with books out on the
Lucy Butters: train. One was reading a book called Feminist City, and the other was reading a
Lucy Butters: book called The New Age of Sexism, I
Lucy Butters: think. Neither which I was read, but I just thought, you know, that's two young women
Lucy Butters: interested in their context and reading about something like
Lucy Butters: that. And I've got me thinking about, you know, young women. There's much more young women
Lucy Butters: moving to the left than there are men moving to the right, but we don't hear
Lucy Butters: it. So who's setting the agenda, you know, that, that power
Lucy Butters: piece? And I think that's always useful to have
Lucy Butters: in your thinking also.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think, isn't it a sort of traditionally you move to the right as you get
Joanne Lockwood: older? Um,
Joanne Lockwood: allegedly.
Lucy Butters: Allegedly. And I, again, I would say anything that's about a whole group, that
Lucy Butters: it doesn't count to everyone in the group. That, that, that would be how I would respond to
Lucy Butters: everything.
Joanne Lockwood: You can't generalize. You can't generalize. No.
Lucy Butters: It's about percentages. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're just making stuff up to justify your claim if you're not careful, aren't
Joanne Lockwood: you? Come up with the statistic. But yeah, it's— I think we got— we do have to recognise
Joanne Lockwood: that everyone, everyone is unique and we have different affinity
Joanne Lockwood: groups. We have different subcultures, big
Joanne Lockwood: cultures. And if we don't take the time to find out about those different
Joanne Lockwood: drivers in people's lives or what they need, then either we'll
Joanne Lockwood: become disenfranchised or we'll disenfranchise them or we won't speak to
Joanne Lockwood: them. And that's what I think what's happening is where this anti-DEI or the anti-wokeness
Joanne Lockwood: pushback is that people have felt disenfranchised by the need
Joanne Lockwood: to include people. That some people are saying, well, hang on a minute, you're not including me in these
Joanne Lockwood: conversations. You're telling me as a white man, I, I'm the
Joanne Lockwood: problem. I'm— as a, a white person, I should be
Joanne Lockwood: more, more, more sorry for the atrocities of
Joanne Lockwood: slavery.
Lucy Butters: And I would say it's never about the
Lucy Butters: identity. And as soon as we start saying it this identity
Lucy Butters: group. It's about behaviors. What behaviours are we
Lucy Butters: using? And I think most people will come in and say— and this is a key thing for
Lucy Butters: leadership— it's about what behaviours are you tolerating,
Lucy Butters: or are you modeling, or are you valuing when you see
Lucy Butters: another? So you're trying to encourage that
Lucy Butters: behavior. And I think we can get lost in
Lucy Butters: conversations that are about identity when what would be really
Lucy Butters: useful is sometimes thinking, but actually it's not just about
Lucy Butters: you understanding me and me understanding you. It's about what are we trying to do
Lucy Butters: here? What behaviours will help us?
Joanne Lockwood: That, that's a really good point. You can, you can manage behaviors, but you can't manage
Joanne Lockwood: or police people's identities.
Lucy Butters: 100%.
Joanne Lockwood: And if people, if you set a behavioural expectation and people are meeting that
Joanne Lockwood: expectation, That's all you can do. Um, if, if it's just a discomfort,
Joanne Lockwood: if it's just a kind of, oh, I don't like that, that's not a valid, a valid reason
Joanne Lockwood: to deny somebody or exclude somebody. It has to be a behaviour that you can quantify
Joanne Lockwood: tangibly and manage.
Lucy Butters: And also often that bit about not liking something and feeling that
Lucy Butters: rub, it's— that's the growth space. You know, it's also what's
Lucy Butters: the potential in that of leaning into that and seeing where it takes
Lucy Butters: you. And I think sometimes Sometimes we forget about that as well in lots of conversations about
Lucy Butters: inclusion. It's about— there's an awful lot of talk that's about understand that person
Lucy Butters: and respond to them. When you're in a group situation, I'm aware as a
Lucy Butters: trainer, you know, I can't respond to every
Lucy Butters: individual. I can never be everything for everyone at the same
Lucy Butters: time. It's not possible. What we can do as a group is agree behaviours
Lucy Butters: and And, you know, think about that and think about our purpose
Lucy Butters: in the group.
Joanne Lockwood: Mm. Well, going back to the four capabilities, I, I always think that, but
Joanne Lockwood: the third one is, is really, really important. The, uh, the strategy
Joanne Lockwood: element. I was, I would refer to it, yeah, a little knowledge, you become
Joanne Lockwood: armed and dangerous. You think you know a lot about a topic and you then go flying off into the
Joanne Lockwood: distance to say, you, you jump straight into action. Without actually sitting with strategy for a
Joanne Lockwood: while. And then that's where you, you kind of contextualise it, you, you test drive it,
Joanne Lockwood: you, you pick it apart, you become really, really knowledgeable with lived experience, things like
Joanne Lockwood: that. And a lot of people just jump straight into action, and that's where the, the language falls over,
Joanne Lockwood: or they upset people. They haven't got the tools in the toolkit to recover that situation then, have
Joanne Lockwood: they?
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. I feel that you should read my book. I think that you've almost been like a sub-editor
Lucy Butters: on it or something. Absolutely. You know, interviewing the people around the world, as I
Lucy Butters: did, you know, that bit about the strategy. People were saying, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, if I
Lucy Butters: hear an idea, I just want to get on with it, or the context around me isn't
Lucy Butters: very long-term focused, it's about do, do, do, do,
Lucy Butters: do. And many of us will have been in situations like
Lucy Butters: that. But you're absolutely right, if you ask people when they've taken the time just
Lucy Butters: to sit with their knowledge a little and Think, okay,
Lucy Butters: how will I impact in a more positive way with
Lucy Butters: this group? And even having that thought and thinking about it,
Lucy Butters: super useful. And then having the awareness afterwards to think,
Lucy Butters: how did it go? And what could I have
Lucy Butters: changed? And all these different things. What could I do
Lucy Butters: differently?
Joanne Lockwood: That constant feedback loop in your head, isn't it? It's almost like— yeah, I do a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: training on, on challenging conversations. One of the things is you, you're always trying to start with the end in
Joanne Lockwood: mind. You want a positive outcome, whatever that may be. So if you're always in the conversation or in
Joanne Lockwood: your head saying, I want this to be a positive experience, I want this to come out in a positive way,
Joanne Lockwood: I want this to— if I get it wrong, how do I put my— put, you know, I
Joanne Lockwood: think about it as playing a scaletrix. Remember, if you squeeze the trigger too hard, the car goes flying off on the
Joanne Lockwood: corners.
Lucy Butters: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So you gotta, you gotta try and somehow try and find the right position on the
Joanne Lockwood: trigger. The, the car goes all the way around the track. It doesn't go the fastest, but it goes
Joanne Lockwood: steady. And it's trying to find that way of, of that feedback
Joanne Lockwood: loop. If it keeps flying off in the corner, how do I correct? How do I go
Joanne Lockwood: back? How do I— where's my plan B or plan C or plan
Joanne Lockwood: Z?
Lucy Butters: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's that knowledge and the strategy coming together though, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it?
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And I think, and also the motivation when you're saying, I want the
Lucy Butters: outcome to be a positive one, you know, you're seeing the whole The whole
Lucy Butters: CQ in action there, I think how you describe that, and I often think
Lucy Butters: CQ is a development tool, but it's also a planning tool, and difficult
Lucy Butters: conversations can be one of them. You know, that bit about what does
Lucy Butters: better look like? What's our motivation here? What do we
Lucy Butters: know? And then that strategy piece, what do we not
Lucy Butters: know? Who we've not spoken to? You know, all these— what are my assumptions and
Lucy Butters: how are they coming through? And what will we agree to do? And a bit like you were saying, that bit
Lucy Butters: about coming back to better, conversations never follow
Lucy Butters: a plan. However, if you've got it in your head, you can kind of
Lucy Butters: keep looking— looping back to it so that you can get to a more
Lucy Butters: positive place. And I've used CQ in
Lucy Butters: that way also, where there's
Lucy Butters: conflict. I've found a useful
Lucy Butters: framework.
Joanne Lockwood: It's, it's alert behavior, EQ, CQ, alert behaviors, aren't
Joanne Lockwood: they? There is a cognitive load and it's, it's an uncomfortable
Joanne Lockwood: load when you first start thinking about it, but the more, you know, the brain's plastic, the brain's
Joanne Lockwood: going to adapt. If you keep giving it these pathways, it becomes more
Joanne Lockwood: natural. I keep talking about the word subroutine because, you know, my IT background,
Joanne Lockwood: I know that I've got a subroutine that I can just branch into diplomatic, my, my
Joanne Lockwood: cognitive awareness, my conscious inclusion, my you matter to me
Joanne Lockwood: subroutine. And I've got all these different things firing off, but I have to have—
Joanne Lockwood: I've built those, those routines in my head to know how to navigate
Joanne Lockwood: this. Whereas I'd say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I just had one plan and that was my
Joanne Lockwood: plan without thinking about others.
Lucy Butters: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So you have to build these pathways.
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. It's like a muscle, you know, it's kind of And
Lucy Butters: habit. Um, the research suggests when we build habit, it gets
Lucy Butters: easier. You know, it's kind of— so there's research about, yes,
Lucy Butters: people are going to have bias, et cetera, et
Lucy Butters: cetera. But if we build in the habit of being
Lucy Butters: intentionally thinking about it, that becomes our habit. We build that muscle, and
Lucy Butters: that's very doable. That's
Lucy Butters: doable. And I think that's a really optimistic and hopeful
Lucy Butters: message in terms of where we at, at the moment where I think there's
Lucy Butters: a lot of negativity. And I think this bit is, we can be
Lucy Butters: hopeful. We have capability. We can build
Lucy Butters: it.
Joanne Lockwood: The other thing we need to be mindful of is we don't need to be right, do
Joanne Lockwood: we? A lot of people want to be right.
Joanne Lockwood: Mm-hmm.
Lucy Butters: Yeah. And, and we— that bit about, um, we're taught to
Lucy Butters: be right, we're, we're valued for being right. If you think about schooling and hands
Lucy Butters: up, you know, and who's right and who's wrong. And if you look at news, there's always
Lucy Butters: two sides, and it's— in the UK, it's kind of like there's two sides to a
Lucy Butters: story. And we talked about the law being binary, you know, this kind of right
Lucy Butters: and wrong. But really, it's, as you say, we, we can't
Lucy Butters: be right all the time, and things are often much messier than right or
Lucy Butters: wrong. So we've got to have the capability to
Lucy Butters: operate well in that space.
Joanne Lockwood: I've been married nearly 40 years, 39 years this, this
Joanne Lockwood: year. I've said to people, you can't be right and
Joanne Lockwood: happy. You certainly can't be, you can't be right and be
Joanne Lockwood: married. It's not about saying it's about compromise where everyone
Joanne Lockwood: loses. It's about trying to find a pathway where everybody feels
Joanne Lockwood: they've been respected, listened to, cared about. Their thoughts are, are being
Joanne Lockwood: investigated, considered. And you, you don't have to have your opinion all the
Joanne Lockwood: time, but you have to feel that at least you contributed. And that's the belongingness, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Contributing to the overall goal. You care about me, you listen to me,
Joanne Lockwood: my voice matters, even though I'm not always the, the chosen
Joanne Lockwood: voice.
Lucy Butters: Yeah, I love that. And I see that in my relationship with my husband, but I, I think
Lucy Butters: about my dad as well. My dad was a minister of the Church of Scotland, a religious
Lucy Butters: minister. And I am not religious, you know, and so I know that
Lucy Butters: I must have hurt him with that, that, that's not a comfortable thing for him,
Lucy Butters: and I loved him entirely. And, but you can hurt the people
Lucy Butters: you love and it still be okay. You know, my dad was proud of
Lucy Butters: me. We had a wonderful relationship. So absolutely,
Lucy Butters: it's, um, I, I love what you've just said and shared.
Joanne Lockwood: My mum is quite religious. She goes to, the church is, is a fairly big part of her
Joanne Lockwood: life. She goes to classes and, something called
Joanne Lockwood: Alpha. I dunno if that's a universal thing, but she does a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: that. And she, she's, she's never, she's never overtly religious, but she has,
Joanne Lockwood: she's got a deep faith. And she said something, it wasn't to me, she said something to my wife the other day that she sees a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of Christianity in me recently. And I, and I thought when she said that, I thought, what do you mean
Joanne Lockwood: there? What do you mean is she sees a lot of good person in me that she never saw before,
Joanne Lockwood: and she's equated that to, to the word Christianity. I don't equate it to
Joanne Lockwood: Christianity. I just think about it being a decent human being who cares about
Joanne Lockwood: others. Which should be the basis of most religions in the
Joanne Lockwood: world. But we often get confused and, and start a war because we want our, our
Joanne Lockwood: deity to be more powerful than your deity or whatever it may be. So
Joanne Lockwood: it, it's, it's, I think most of us wanna get up in the morning and be good people, don't
Joanne Lockwood: we?
Lucy Butters: I think so. I think so. And I think you just came back to that bit
Lucy Butters: about, um, being right or wrong, my deity, you know, that, That's my
Lucy Butters: way of thinking. And if we could explore that a bit, like going back,
Lucy Butters: explore that in terms of, well, we all have different ways of thinking because we've all
Lucy Butters: had different things that we've learned and different
Lucy Butters: experiences, and that's shaped each of us, you
Lucy Butters: know. Even if it looks from the outside that we might think the same,
Lucy Butters: if we got down into deeper conf— there, there'd be areas where we're
Lucy Butters: massively different, you know, with people that you group together. It's just It's just how it
Lucy Butters: is. So I think just accepting that, and I think from your
Lucy Butters: mum, that would have been a compliment.
Joanne Lockwood: It was. I took it, I took it as a massive compliment and it made me, what it made me realise actually, my mum
Joanne Lockwood: has actually said to me that I've, I've changed her outlook considerably since my gender
Joanne Lockwood: transition. And she was, one might say, as a Daily Mail
Joanne Lockwood: reading, GB News watcher, she, she was not necessarily the most left-leaning person out
Joanne Lockwood: there. So yeah. You know, and I've introduced her to a, a broader
Joanne Lockwood: perspective on life that she never had before. And she's— I've, I've caused her to
Joanne Lockwood: question what she believes and, and thinks and, and sees the world differently and maybe doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: shoot from the hip as often as she used to. And, and for someone who, who
Joanne Lockwood: purports to be a person of faith, she was maybe a bit too
Joanne Lockwood: quick to be polarized. And so I think, I think I've, I've helped to see a broader
Joanne Lockwood: perspective. I was chatting to somebody the other week and they introduced me to my new favourite word, which I'd never come
Joanne Lockwood: across in the past. Are you aware of this? The word is— word of the century
Joanne Lockwood: for me is equanimity.
Lucy Butters: And is that about balance? Am I understanding that word?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's so, it's so I always keep it on the screen so I remember
Joanne Lockwood: it. And it's the ability to stay calm, balanced, and composed, especially in
Joanne Lockwood: difficult, stressful, or emotionally charged situations. I always think bit, to be able to hold space
Joanne Lockwood: for two opposing views without feeling
Joanne Lockwood: you can't cope with that. You know, that paradox is there, you know, your rights, my rights, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. You can sit back and go, I can live in this space with this
Joanne Lockwood: confusion. I can live in this space with this conflict. I can maintain my calm
Joanne Lockwood: and composure and we, I can talk about this and it's— being able to sit with discomfort in these
Joanne Lockwood: challenging conversations, I think, is a fantastic word. And I, I realised that it
Joanne Lockwood: should be the heart of all of our, our being, if you like, you know, when we're trying to build equity
Joanne Lockwood: and systems and cultures and values and belonging and all this kind of stuff we
Joanne Lockwood: talked about.
Lucy Butters: And may I ask, cause I'm listening and I'm nodding ahead and the little question that's going
Lucy Butters: in my head is the question of, do you believe you should fight for what you believe
Lucy Butters: in? Cause that's different from holding
Lucy Butters: space.
Joanne Lockwood: That reminds me of the, uh, Saturday morning TV, the fight, feel There was a song,
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't there? It's an old black and white Spanish dub.
Lucy Butters: Fight for your right to party.
Joanne Lockwood: It's that song. It's like, do I— should you have to fight for your right? It depends who you're fighting because
Joanne Lockwood: you've got to start the perspective that the other person believes that they're
Joanne Lockwood: right. They believe that they have their right to party. They have their right to be, to be
Joanne Lockwood: right. And by going in believing you have, you have to fight for your right
Joanne Lockwood: implies that almost sets yourself up to have a
Joanne Lockwood: battle. And so I, I would always go into those situations by trying to figure
Joanne Lockwood: out what the other person's perspective is first. You know, what was your
Joanne Lockwood: why? Why do you believe that? What's— what, what is your grounding point
Joanne Lockwood: here that you're trying to get across to me or defend against me? And at that point there,
Joanne Lockwood: I often talk about avoiding talking about outcomes
Joanne Lockwood: and talking about perspectives because we can understand why someone believes
Joanne Lockwood: something. We don't have to agree. We'd have to agree with the
Joanne Lockwood: outcome. Come, but I can understand why your lived experience says
Joanne Lockwood: you believe something, and that could be your upbringing, as you say, you know, the part of Scotland you
Joanne Lockwood: grew up in, your religious faith, the family,
Joanne Lockwood: or an event that happened when you were little. All these things dictate how you
Joanne Lockwood: can turn out and how you, you know, why you might want to vote for this particular political
Joanne Lockwood: party. I can understand why, and I appreciate this is your, this is your podcast, not mine, But I
Joanne Lockwood: always use the example of Novak Djokovic. Do you remember when he was barred from entering
Joanne Lockwood: Australia?
Lucy Butters: Oh yes. Because he hadn't taken the COVID injection, the COVID
Lucy Butters: vaccine.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So I, I'm a, I'm a pro-vax person, you know, as far as I'm concerned, roll my sleeve up and stick it in
Joanne Lockwood: me and, uh, and whatever it may be. And I was determined to not
Joanne Lockwood: like Djokovic over this. You know, as far as I'm concerned, he, he is a role
Joanne Lockwood: model. He was setting an example to people. And so I was determined I was like
Joanne Lockwood: him. I saw him on an interview with BBC News and he, the first things he said
Joanne Lockwood: was when they, when they questioned about it, he said, well, I, I deserve and have the right to have agency over my own
Joanne Lockwood: body. And I thought, poof, that, that floored me because yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely, absolutely. I would fight for my right to have agency over my own
Joanne Lockwood: body. Yeah, tick. Agree. I agree with
Joanne Lockwood: you. I agree with you. And then he took accountability. And said,
Joanne Lockwood: if that, if that means I, I cannot enter Australia, I cannot compete in the tennis tournament,
Joanne Lockwood: so be it. I will leave. I thought, wow. So he's, he's got a principle,
Joanne Lockwood: which is agency, and he's willing to be accountable for it and do what is right
Joanne Lockwood: in the, in, in the circumstance. I thought, what do I thought? This guy is so
Joanne Lockwood: grounded. Yeah. And I, I don't agree with not being vaccinated. I don't agree with what he did, But
Joanne Lockwood: everything he's done and the why he's done it, I can't fault. So I can hold that space and,
Joanne Lockwood: and disagree with him in what he did, but not why he did
Joanne Lockwood: it. I agree why he did it. I actually agree that he had the right to do
Joanne Lockwood: that.
Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And that's all the time. Usually we have, you know, we, we can make
Lucy Butters: choices about whether we follow the law or not. For example, that's what democratic
Lucy Butters: protest, or even if you're in a, you know, non-democratic protest,
Lucy Butters: but you know, so we have But there is that bit about accountability and
Lucy Butters: holding space. It's so important for my work, you know, that not taking
Lucy Butters: judgement in. And as you just said in that storey about responding to the
Lucy Butters: Djokovic interview, being prepared to hear and
Lucy Butters: think, all right, okay, I wouldn't have done that. However, I can see where you're coming
Lucy Butters: from. And I think that's such an important part of developing others
Lucy Butters: and working with others.
Joanne Lockwood: Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been yakking off for best part of an hour and a half, including our
Joanne Lockwood: little, uh, our little sojourn in the green room. We were talking, you know, it's a
Joanne Lockwood: shame we don't live closer cuz I'd love to just meet for a coffee somewhere. We, I'm sure we could spend hours together just yakking
Joanne Lockwood: about this. How can people get hold of you? And I wanna find out more about your
Joanne Lockwood: book.
Lucy Butters: So people can get hold of me at
Lucy Butters: lucybutters.com. That's the easiest
Lucy Butters: place. Or you can search me down on LinkedIn,
Lucy Butters: Lucy Butters. The book is Cultural Intelligence in
Lucy Butters: Practice. It's available online. Most re— book retailers in the
Lucy Butters: UK are Barnes Noble, in the States, but Amazon
Lucy Butters: and other places. Please get in touch if you can't find it, if you're in one of those places
Lucy Butters: that Amazon does not reach. And the book is really talking to
Lucy Butters: people who develop others. How do we inspire
Lucy Butters: others? How do we build our Cultural intelligence when we're working with other people, how to
Lucy Butters: be— keep that intentionality that we spoke to, whilst also
Lucy Butters: inspiring others to develop theirs, because it contributes so
Lucy Butters: much to inclusion and effective
Lucy Butters: organizations.
Joanne Lockwood: So for leaders, people leading themselves, manage themselves in the workplace, or
Joanne Lockwood: even you're curious about being curious, it's a, it's a great place to
Joanne Lockwood: start. Will it be available on Audible as well?
Lucy Butters: I hope eventually, it's not at the
Lucy Butters: moment. So come back to me on that
Lucy Butters: one.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm an Audible person. I, when I go for a dog walk, I, I, I fire up a— so
Joanne Lockwood: I don't do podcasts so much, but I do Audible books and, uh,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. So, but yeah, so I'll, I may just
Joanne Lockwood: invest. I may invest in the meantime. So I'll put the link in, in the show
Joanne Lockwood: notes. Thank you. And if you're curious, when does it publish?
Lucy Butters: It was published in November last year,
Lucy Butters: 2022.
Joanne Lockwood: November last year. Yeah, excellent. So please do cheque out Lucy's
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn, cheque out the book, links in, in the show
Joanne Lockwood: notes. Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. I've really enjoyed
Joanne Lockwood: this. And, uh, no doubt when we, when I press stop, we'll have a quick word and a
Joanne Lockwood: quick natter anyway. So thank you so much.
Lucy Butters: I look forward to that coffee sometime
Lucy Butters: too. Absolutely. Thank
Lucy Butters: you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart
Joanne Lockwood: to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a
Joanne Lockwood: chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our
Joanne Lockwood: ever-growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family,
Joanne Lockwood: and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that
Joanne Lockwood: matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share, I'm all
Joanne Lockwood: ears. Reach out to joe.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that
Joanne Lockwood: challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next
Joanne Lockwood: bite.