WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.310 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:15.888 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your 3 00:00:15.888 --> 00:00:20.827 guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:20.827 --> 00:00:22.622 belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.622 --> 00:00:27.292 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:27.292 --> 00:00:30.972 world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:30.972 --> 00:00:35.461 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:35.461 --> 00:00:40.128 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep 9 00:00:40.128 --> 00:00:44.795 within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning 10 00:00:44.795 --> 00:00:49.553 coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect 11 00:00:49.553 --> 00:00:54.400 and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the 12 00:00:54.400 --> 00:00:56.734 conversation too. Reach out to 13 00:00:56.734 --> 00:01:01.583 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or 14 00:01:01.583 --> 00:01:05.714 to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 15 00:01:05.714 --> 00:01:10.293 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 16 00:01:10.293 --> 00:01:15.230 Bites. And today 17 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:19.880 is episode 218 with the title Cut Through 18 00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:23.680 Communication. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Dominic 19 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.960 Colenso. Dominic is a speaker, author and coach, 20 00:01:28.520 --> 00:01:32.600 formerly a professional actor who now helps leaders and sales teams 21 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.640 communicate with clarity and impact so that more people have a voice 22 00:01:38.440 --> 00:01:42.960 and a voice that is truly heard. When I asked Dominic to describe his 23 00:01:42.960 --> 00:01:47.920 superpower, he said that it is storytelling and his fascination with the 24 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:52.800 world and the power to change it. Hello, Dominic, welcome to 25 00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:53.160 the show. 26 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:56.280 Hey, Jo, lovely to be here. Thanks so much for having me. 27 00:01:57.240 --> 00:02:01.560 Absolute pleasure. We met all probably six, seven years ago, didn't we, at a 28 00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:06.760 Professional Speaking association conference? And I think I was sat next to you at dinner or something and 29 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.480 yeah, I think we met in the bar and then we ended up having dinner together 30 00:02:10.480 --> 00:02:11.320 and. Yeah, it was great. 31 00:02:11.320 --> 00:02:16.290 Yeah, it was a fascinating evening. And then I. You told me the story about, you know, 32 00:02:16.290 --> 00:02:21.189 I mentioned in the bio just then about being a professional actor and that was like a 33 00:02:21.189 --> 00:02:25.946 big bomb penny drop, wasn't it? It was like. I guess you get a lot of people when you 34 00:02:25.946 --> 00:02:29.496 first tell them that story, which I hope you're going to tell 35 00:02:29.496 --> 00:02:29.770 now. 36 00:02:30.970 --> 00:02:34.650 I think it's always kind of a great curiosity 37 00:02:35.290 --> 00:02:40.210 inducer. I think there's something about acting and the kind of world of showbiz 38 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:45.190 that always makes people curious. I don't want to disappoint 39 00:02:45.190 --> 00:02:49.830 your leaders, but I do also think it's just a job and we can kind of discuss that 40 00:02:49.910 --> 00:02:54.470 a little bit later on. But you're absolutely right. I started my career as a professional 41 00:02:54.470 --> 00:02:58.790 actor. I went to one of the kind of big method drama schools in the 42 00:02:58.790 --> 00:03:02.830 uk. Tom Hardy was in the year above me. It was all very kind of 43 00:03:02.830 --> 00:03:06.390 intense. The nickname of the place was Trauma Centre. Should have been a 44 00:03:06.390 --> 00:03:11.050 clue. But I then was really blessed to get 45 00:03:11.130 --> 00:03:14.610 out of drama school and straight into professional acting 46 00:03:14.610 --> 00:03:18.890 work. I did BBC period drama while I was still in my third year and then within 47 00:03:19.690 --> 00:03:24.610 six to nine months of leaving drama school I landed the role of Virgil Tracy in the Hollywood 48 00:03:24.610 --> 00:03:29.570 remake of Thunderbird. And that was, if you forgive the pun, the kind of takeoff for 49 00:03:29.570 --> 00:03:30.170 my career. 50 00:03:30.170 --> 00:03:35.155 And maybe telling the story that they originally draft commissioned you 51 00:03:35.155 --> 00:03:37.360 for three. For a series of three. 52 00:03:37.600 --> 00:03:42.320 Yeah, absolutely. It was a big deal. We, we were genuinely 53 00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:46.560 kind of slated to be the next big 54 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.960 things. So we had a three movie deal. Everyone was sort of 55 00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:55.800 hyping this thing up with the, the merchandise, the, the kind of 56 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.680 advertising and everything was huge. We had busted doing the theme tune which at the time they were 57 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.400 probably one of the biggest kind of boy bands in, in the UK and it was all 58 00:04:05.260 --> 00:04:10.180 exciting. So we as a, as a cast genuinely believed that we were going to 59 00:04:10.180 --> 00:04:13.100 be in each other's pockets probably for the next 15 60 00:04:13.260 --> 00:04:16.620 years. Because these things have a kind of life of their own 61 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:21.460 normally. Unfortunately, when, when we released the first film, the box 62 00:04:21.460 --> 00:04:26.420 office in the UK was great. The box office in Japan and in Europe was 63 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:31.060 good but it just didn't make its money in the us. The, the Americans were a little bit kind of 64 00:04:31.060 --> 00:04:35.980 confused about it. It was a British puppet series so I don't think it had 65 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:40.040 translated ne necessarily over there. And the timing of the release was really 66 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:45.000 bad. We were released in the US against Spider Man 2 and Shrek 2 and they bought 67 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:49.920 the release forward rather than an Easter release, it was a summer release and 68 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.600 that just meant that unfortunately it kind of sank a little bit without a 69 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.120 trace. And about three or four weeks after the US launch got a 70 00:04:58.440 --> 00:05:03.040 slightly sheepish call from my agent to say yeah, unfortunately we're not going ahead back to 71 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:07.780 the drawing board because you. It was also the time when that 72 00:05:07.780 --> 00:05:12.580 whole Marvel DC franchise, it was all those remakes, that was the thing, 73 00:05:12.580 --> 00:05:14.540 wasn't it? Everybody wanted those sort of movies. 74 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:20.099 And I mean what I love about the film is that it 75 00:05:20.099 --> 00:05:24.700 has actually really stood the test of time. So I now have a 12 year old 76 00:05:24.700 --> 00:05:29.540 daughter and when she was sort of 56 she was absolutely 77 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:32.380 obsessed by it. And it wasn't. This sounds really 78 00:05:32.380 --> 00:05:36.280 egotistical. I didn't say, right darling, sit down and watch daddy in a 79 00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:41.080 movie. She was actually at my mother in law's house and it came on the TV and 80 00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:45.960 she saw dad as A. As a superhero. And it was really interesting because she was really 81 00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:50.840 confused at that age as to whether I had had a former life, you know, putting out fires 82 00:05:50.840 --> 00:05:53.920 on oil rigs. And so we kind of kept that going for. For a little 83 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:58.800 bit. But her and her friends and all of their kind of peer group just 84 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.760 really loved the film because it is a great feel good. 85 00:06:01.760 --> 00:06:04.760 It's a great. I remember seeing it at the cinema. I remember enjoying it 86 00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:05.360 immensely. 87 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:10.160 Yeah, yeah. I had a conversation with Jonathan Frakes, 88 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.840 who was the director. He played Riker in Star Trek, but he's also directed a lot of 89 00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:19.760 films. And I had a conversation with him a couple of years ago and he said 90 00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:23.360 something that really kind of hit me. He said we were meant to grow old 91 00:06:23.520 --> 00:06:28.400 together. And from his perspective, he was signed up for the whole 92 00:06:28.400 --> 00:06:33.280 franchise and he really believed that we were going to be making these movies for 93 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:34.640 years and years and years. 94 00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:37.890 And the press tours and the. And all the. 95 00:06:37.890 --> 00:06:40.690 Yeah, exactly. All of that 96 00:06:40.690 --> 00:06:41.250 craziness. 97 00:06:42.610 --> 00:06:45.210 Franchise. You'd be having sort of spin offs. 98 00:06:45.210 --> 00:06:50.050 Exactly. And there'd be loads of, you know, dolls behind me with my face on it and different hairstyles 99 00:06:50.050 --> 00:06:51.650 and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. 100 00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:57.090 I remember you saying something like there was a moment when you realised you talked about all these little toys 101 00:06:57.090 --> 00:07:01.970 and stuff. Was it you Weren't in the McDonald's Happy Meal, that was Spider man 102 00:07:01.970 --> 00:07:04.090 and you were in the Wendy's. Or was it something like that? 103 00:07:04.090 --> 00:07:08.978 Yeah, that was. That was a kind early warning sign as I look back 104 00:07:08.978 --> 00:07:13.960 on it was that when they came to. To do all of the merchandising, I 105 00:07:13.960 --> 00:07:18.848 think it was Shrek was Burger King, Spider-Man was McDonald's 106 00:07:18.848 --> 00:07:21.292 and we had ended up in. It wasn't 107 00:07:21.292 --> 00:07:24.676 Wendy's. What was it? It was Wimpy. That was 108 00:07:24.676 --> 00:07:25.990 it. It was Wimpy. 109 00:07:26.070 --> 00:07:26.790 Wimpy. 110 00:07:27.430 --> 00:07:32.270 There you go. Right. This is. This is probably. We don't quite have the position third division that 111 00:07:32.270 --> 00:07:33.990 we need right now. Yeah. 112 00:07:35.210 --> 00:07:39.850 But you. You've name dropped in the past. You know, you've done work with some very well known leading 113 00:07:39.850 --> 00:07:43.650 thespians, you know, of the stage and yeah, you've mixed in that circle and 114 00:07:43.650 --> 00:07:48.090 it. I think you're right. From an outsider's perspective it all seems quite 115 00:07:48.090 --> 00:07:50.010 magical and. And sort of 116 00:07:50.890 --> 00:07:54.130 inspiring. But to you it was just a job. You just do what you 117 00:07:54.130 --> 00:07:54.410 do. 118 00:07:54.650 --> 00:07:58.482 I mean, it's still really exciting. I mean I'd be ludicrous 119 00:07:58.482 --> 00:08:01.534 to. To downplay the kind of fantasy and the make 120 00:08:01.534 --> 00:08:06.227 believe. I remember like turning up at Pinewood Studios, which is where 121 00:08:06.227 --> 00:08:11.078 Thunderbirds was filmed. And a. Someone comes and picks you up in a massive 122 00:08:11.078 --> 00:08:15.851 Mercedes to take you there. And then they drop, drop you off and you kind of 123 00:08:15.851 --> 00:08:20.310 pull up outside the studio and there's a runner waiting to escort you 124 00:08:20.310 --> 00:08:25.160 in. And you're walking down the corridor with all of these photos of famous 125 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.777 people, you know, different Bond villains and amazing actors who have 126 00:08:29.777 --> 00:08:34.550 worked there. And then you walk out onto the Soundstage and there's these 127 00:08:34.550 --> 00:08:39.087 sets that are just absolutely mind blowing. I mean, Tracy island had a 128 00:08:39.087 --> 00:08:43.701 swimming pool, so we were. We were in a big warehouse hangar, but we were 129 00:08:43.701 --> 00:08:48.627 swimming in the. We were swimming in pool when we were on Thunderbird 5 and it 130 00:08:48.627 --> 00:08:53.480 was getting blown up. You know, the gimbals moving, the whole thing's, you 131 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:58.015 know, explosions, smoke, sparks. So it's kind of like being in a theme 132 00:08:58.015 --> 00:09:01.066 park. When we shot the oil rig rescue scenes, we 133 00:09:01.066 --> 00:09:04.038 were. We were in the backlot in a big, big water 134 00:09:04.038 --> 00:09:07.793 tank. I had like 30 stuntmen throwing themselves into the 135 00:09:07.793 --> 00:09:11.234 water. Explosions, wind machines. It's absolutely 136 00:09:11.234 --> 00:09:16.085 nuts. So it's not like any other job, but ultimately it's show business and 137 00:09:16.085 --> 00:09:20.310 there is a real business element to it. And what happened with the 138 00:09:20.310 --> 00:09:24.924 Thunderbirds franchise is a real kind of testament to that fact that if 139 00:09:24.924 --> 00:09:28.053 things don't do the numbers, then they don't get 140 00:09:28.053 --> 00:09:32.512 recommissioned. It doesn't matter how kind of feel good and excited 141 00:09:32.512 --> 00:09:37.283 everyone was about the show. It actually had to be commercially viable as 142 00:09:37.283 --> 00:09:37.660 well. 143 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:41.940 I mean, today a lot of it is heavily CGI and 144 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:45.740 animated. When you did the movie, it was probably still on that 145 00:09:45.740 --> 00:09:50.060 cusp. Some cgi, some augmentation, but a lot of it, as you're saying, there was quite 146 00:09:50.060 --> 00:09:50.340 real. 147 00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:55.340 Yeah, I mean, we, we did a lot of the kind of 148 00:09:55.340 --> 00:09:57.740 stunt stuff that in that 149 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:00.660 nowadays. Absolutely would. Would be just 150 00:10:01.870 --> 00:10:06.670 graphics. That oil rig rescue that I described, I mean, there were 151 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:11.070 flamethrowers and all sorts of stuff going. I just don't think they would bother 152 00:10:11.630 --> 00:10:16.590 with that now. And we were. Our dad in the 153 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:19.630 film was Bill Paxton and he'd been in Apollo 154 00:10:19.630 --> 00:10:19.950 13. 155 00:10:20.190 --> 00:10:20.670 Wow. 156 00:10:20.990 --> 00:10:24.270 So when we were doing. There's a scene in it where we're kind of 157 00:10:24.270 --> 00:10:28.510 doing. We're weightless and the kind of 158 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:33.960 gravity device in the space station is broken and we're kind of all floating around 159 00:10:34.040 --> 00:10:36.680 and they had to make us full body 160 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:42.080 casks. So we went into. We went in props department and we're all wrapped 161 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:46.920 in plaster so that they could make an exact kind of replica 162 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:51.720 for our bodies. Then for the actual scene, we got into these 163 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:56.800 casks. They had different connection points and there were strategic 164 00:10:56.800 --> 00:11:01.460 holes in our costumes. And then we were put onto a pole and kind of 165 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:04.740 floated around. I don't think that would happen 166 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:09.660 anymore. But interestingly, when you look, when you watch it back, it looks really 167 00:11:09.660 --> 00:11:13.380 good and it looks slightly more believable than some of the CGI that we're 168 00:11:13.380 --> 00:11:15.940 seeing. So it's an interesting dichotomy. 169 00:11:16.659 --> 00:11:19.740 I've got a friend who works, he's got a stage automation 170 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:24.660 company. He actually designed the Michael McIntyre 171 00:11:24.660 --> 00:11:29.570 spin the wheel. So his stage automation spins the wheel and he's got 172 00:11:29.570 --> 00:11:34.410 all this. And it's called. He was an RAF friend of mine, we were both doing electronics in the RAF 173 00:11:34.410 --> 00:11:39.250 together 30 years ago, 40 years ago. And he's done some movies as 174 00:11:39.250 --> 00:11:44.090 well where you need to get a person from the bottom of a tower to the top of a tower 175 00:11:44.170 --> 00:11:48.770 and he will do that stage automation that fires them up. Fires them up or 176 00:11:48.770 --> 00:11:51.770 whatever. So, yeah, he's got an OBE for 177 00:11:51.770 --> 00:11:56.720 it. So he's a leading authority in stage automation. So, yeah, so I 178 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.880 get to hear some of his stuff. He does a lot of stage shows in the West 179 00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:03.360 End. He's a good source of getting cheap tickets for West End 180 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:03.880 productions. 181 00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:04.600 Brilliant. 182 00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:09.280 So you finished your acting or acting finished with 183 00:12:09.280 --> 00:12:13.960 you? Did it fizzle or did you kind of get to the end of it and think, actually, I need to wear a proper 184 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:15.800 living now. I've got to be an adult. 185 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.920 There were a couple of things that were going on. It was never that clean 186 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:24.890 cut. So I was also, throughout my time at drama school and, you know, 187 00:12:24.890 --> 00:12:28.490 that early part of my career as an actor, very interested in 188 00:12:28.570 --> 00:12:33.450 directing. And so some opportunities came along to 189 00:12:33.850 --> 00:12:38.490 work on shows as assistant directors and then start kind of directing my own 190 00:12:38.730 --> 00:12:43.570 stuff as well. And in parallel to that, I then started to get asked to go back and 191 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:48.490 teach at some of the big drama schools. So I went back to Drama Centre, did some 192 00:12:48.490 --> 00:12:52.620 classes for RADA and a couple of the other big drama schools in 193 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:57.540 London. And what I started to discover that was that I had 194 00:12:57.540 --> 00:13:02.140 got more pleasure and I felt I was making more impact from that 195 00:13:02.540 --> 00:13:06.100 kind of behind the scenes thing rather than being the 196 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:10.980 actor. And I'd had a few really lovely jobs, really big breaks, 197 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:15.940 lovely acting stuff on stage. But you always felt a little bit like a 198 00:13:15.940 --> 00:13:20.910 cog in a wheel, rather than having any sort of sense of 199 00:13:20.910 --> 00:13:24.310 autonomy. Really kind of stupid example just springs to 200 00:13:24.310 --> 00:13:29.270 mind. But I remember being on set for Thunderbirds and Really wanting a 201 00:13:29.270 --> 00:13:33.990 cup of tea. And as the actor, you weren't even allowed to leave your 202 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:38.910 dressing room to go and do that. You had a runner who was there to help 203 00:13:38.910 --> 00:13:42.270 you with those sorts of things. So I asked my runner if I could have a cup of 204 00:13:42.270 --> 00:13:46.770 tea. And like, 25, 30 minutes later, still 205 00:13:46.930 --> 00:13:51.570 no cup of tea. And I'm kind of feeling the diva 206 00:13:51.570 --> 00:13:54.530 rising in me going, this is absolutely 207 00:13:54.770 --> 00:13:59.570 ridiculous. Like, I could have walked to the bloody wagon and picked the cup out of 208 00:14:00.690 --> 00:14:05.010 the pile and made my own cup of tea in three minutes, not in 33 209 00:14:05.010 --> 00:14:09.900 minutes. So you lose some of that autonomy 210 00:14:10.300 --> 00:14:15.140 for some of those really simple decisions. Whereas when I was working as an 211 00:14:15.140 --> 00:14:19.020 actor, as a director, I was able to 212 00:14:20.060 --> 00:14:24.380 really collaborate and unlock other people's 213 00:14:24.380 --> 00:14:28.020 creativity. And so for me, I was never a concepts 214 00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:31.420 director. I didn't come in and say, this is how we're doing 215 00:14:31.420 --> 00:14:36.180 things. I would sit down with my creative team, with my lighting designers, with my costume 216 00:14:36.180 --> 00:14:40.060 designers, set designers, with the actors and say, what are we gonna 217 00:14:40.760 --> 00:14:45.240 together? And I found that incredibly exciting, empowering, 218 00:14:46.920 --> 00:14:50.960 and at kind of odds to my experience as an 219 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.920 actor. So that became a much bigger part of what I 220 00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:00.840 was doing. And then someone came along and said, you're into this 221 00:15:00.920 --> 00:15:03.480 storytelling stuff. Can you help our 222 00:15:03.800 --> 00:15:08.600 team? They're not very good at it. And I'm the sort of person that says yes to anything once 223 00:15:09.640 --> 00:15:14.520 I said, let's give it a go. And I was just really fascinated by 224 00:15:14.520 --> 00:15:19.240 how quickly that skill set that I developed and trained as an 225 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:24.120 actor, as a director, just translated into what I then thought 226 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:29.040 of as the kind of real world again, that ability to help in a way 227 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:33.160 that I didn't have that agency as an actor was really 228 00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:36.040 exciting. And so that set me off on a whole new 229 00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:41.880 trajectory. Doing coaching courses and understanding how do I better 230 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:47.480 translate these things that I kind of instinctively know or have been 231 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:52.120 taught, but how do I teach them to others in a way that is accessible, 232 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.400 is relevant and gets people the results that they 233 00:15:56.400 --> 00:15:56.680 want? 234 00:15:57.880 --> 00:16:02.637 That's very interesting. You say that because you can tell the difference between 235 00:16:02.637 --> 00:16:07.532 someone who is a good storyteller and someone who isn't in so much as the trajectory or 236 00:16:07.532 --> 00:16:12.498 the arc of that conversation is such that, you know, if someone's got a story plan with a 237 00:16:12.498 --> 00:16:17.394 punchline and stuff off points and somebody who's just waffling and you get to the end 238 00:16:17.394 --> 00:16:20.291 of it and go, well, what was I supposed to take out of 239 00:16:20.291 --> 00:16:23.533 this? Yeah, I often joke with people that someone told me 240 00:16:23.533 --> 00:16:26.431 this. Some people need a Skip intro button on their 241 00:16:26.431 --> 00:16:31.328 forehead. So you know, they start talking. I want these people says tell me the answer 242 00:16:31.328 --> 00:16:36.089 and then tell. Read the story. Some people want to tell you the story before you know 243 00:16:36.089 --> 00:16:40.778 where you're going with it. And it's, it's also appreciating different people's 244 00:16:40.778 --> 00:16:44.157 communication styles and listening styles as well, isn't 245 00:16:44.157 --> 00:16:44.330 it? 246 00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:49.290 Absolutely, yeah. It was fascinating at drama school because we, we did a lot of work 247 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:53.490 on what was known at our school as movement 248 00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:58.370 psychology. And the founder of the school was a guy called or co founder of the school was 249 00:16:58.370 --> 00:17:02.570 a guy called Yat Malgram. And Yat had been a soloist 250 00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:07.620 dancer, he was Swedish. In the 40s and 50s he'd been 251 00:17:08.340 --> 00:17:13.300 a virtuoso, toured the world and when he retired as a dancer he started 252 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:17.220 working with actors. You know, has worked with the 253 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:23.180 Anthony Hopkins and you know, Sean Connerys of the 254 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:27.340 world, but then founded, co founded Drama 255 00:17:27.340 --> 00:17:31.460 Centre. He had this methodology that helped actors 256 00:17:31.700 --> 00:17:36.570 translate characters into movement. But what I started to notice 257 00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:41.210 was that you could also kind of reverse engineer that and you could start to understand 258 00:17:41.770 --> 00:17:46.530 people and their preferences and their behaviours from what they were 259 00:17:46.530 --> 00:17:51.330 doing. And I found that really fascinating to bring that back into my 260 00:17:51.330 --> 00:17:56.250 work with businesses again, especially on a podcast like 261 00:17:56.250 --> 00:18:01.010 this. It's not about putting people in boxes, right? We're a combination of all of these 262 00:18:01.010 --> 00:18:05.850 things, but having some sort of shortcut or having some signals to listen out 263 00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:10.330 for and then test and re engineer or adapt if you need 264 00:18:10.330 --> 00:18:12.650 to. But that process is really 265 00:18:12.810 --> 00:18:17.769 useful. So I talk about head energy, people that are very much kind 266 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:22.410 of logic based. One plus one is two need to have the kind of full working out heart 267 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:27.050 energy. People who are about consensus and compassion and bringing people 268 00:18:27.370 --> 00:18:32.330 on the journey together. Gut energy, which is all about, oh, this is new, this is shiny, let's, let's go 269 00:18:32.330 --> 00:18:36.390 this way. And energy who are outcome, focus, direct, 270 00:18:36.950 --> 00:18:41.790 let's get things done. And that very much came from the work that we 271 00:18:41.790 --> 00:18:46.310 did as actors in terms of creating characters almost from the outside 272 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:51.270 in. And it now allows me to have conversations with people and navigate 273 00:18:51.270 --> 00:18:54.590 those conversations much more elegant. Especially if I'm 274 00:18:54.590 --> 00:18:59.470 listening. Well, only if I'm listening to allow me to speak other people's language rather 275 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:02.200 than just get stuck in my own way of doing things. 276 00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:08.200 So you're evaluating the, if you like the reception style, say ah, 277 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.560 you're a foot person, you're a head person, you're a heart person, you're a gut person, you're 278 00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:16.319 a. Yeah, yeah. And then you're you're, you're modifying your interaction to 279 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:21.240 them in a way that they want to. And sometimes when you're in a mixed group, you have to, you have to blend all of 280 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:21.760 them, don't you? 281 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:22.800 All of it? Absolutely. 282 00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:25.880 In all those little plates and then come back and that's 283 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:26.040 it. 284 00:19:26.040 --> 00:19:30.960 You know, when you're, when I'm giving a keynote, it's about recognising, okay, well I might 285 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.780 be speaking to a group of accountants. So they, there might be more kind of head and logic people 286 00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:40.020 in the room, but that doesn't negate the fact that some of them will be real kind of 287 00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:44.980 people. People and will want that heart energy as well. And so it's about being 288 00:19:45.300 --> 00:19:49.460 flexible, it's about being open and it's about 289 00:19:50.100 --> 00:19:54.940 trying to be present in that moment so that you don't just go, right, this is 290 00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:59.890 the plan, this is where I'm going. But actually you do spot the signal and you are able to 291 00:19:59.890 --> 00:20:00.210 change. 292 00:20:01.730 --> 00:20:04.690 Yeah. When does it go wrong? You can sometimes misinterpret, I 293 00:20:04.690 --> 00:20:05.250 guess. Can you? 294 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:08.930 I think it goes wrong when you're not in that place of presence, 295 00:20:08.930 --> 00:20:12.370 actually. I think if you are genuinely present with someone, 296 00:20:14.290 --> 00:20:18.850 you know, human beings are hardwired for connection. That's my belief anyway, that 297 00:20:19.010 --> 00:20:23.890 we are, you know, tribal animals that want to come together and help each 298 00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:28.870 other. And so if we sit in that space and we really listen 299 00:20:28.870 --> 00:20:33.790 and we're not there to dominate and assert, we can still have an 300 00:20:33.790 --> 00:20:36.870 opinion, we can still have an outcome in 301 00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:41.670 mind. But if we're really open to what's right in front of us, then 302 00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:44.590 it's actually quite difficult to get it wrong. But most of us 303 00:20:44.590 --> 00:20:49.430 aren't. Most of us go in with a preconceived idea of how this is going to work and what needs to be said 304 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:51.390 and then the whole thing blows up. 305 00:20:51.620 --> 00:20:54.820 So how do, how do you persuade people that that's a good 306 00:20:54.820 --> 00:20:58.980 idea? Because it's quite often people don't want to be told that 307 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:02.580 it's. How do you coach that into people? What would be your first 308 00:21:02.580 --> 00:21:02.900 step? 309 00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:08.345 So what I normally try and help people identify is what their kind of go to 310 00:21:08.345 --> 00:21:13.066 is. Again, this is not a psychometric test. But on instincts, when you're 311 00:21:13.066 --> 00:21:16.085 under pressure, where, where would you tend to 312 00:21:16.085 --> 00:21:20.885 go? And then what normally is the big aha moment is we then say, so who, who do 313 00:21:20.885 --> 00:21:23.749 you find it really difficult to communicate 314 00:21:23.749 --> 00:21:27.156 with? And what, what you'll tend to find is that those 315 00:21:27.156 --> 00:21:31.879 people. This is a kind of four box model. The people that you find have most 316 00:21:31.879 --> 00:21:36.756 challenge with are on the diagonals from you because they're, they're, you 317 00:21:36.756 --> 00:21:40.549 know, they're, they're the most different to, to where you 318 00:21:40.549 --> 00:21:45.425 are. And as soon as you notice that, then you go, oh, right, yeah, that makes a 319 00:21:45.425 --> 00:21:49.835 lot of sense. That's why I find Susan really challenging to, to have a 320 00:21:49.835 --> 00:21:54.787 conversation. I remember a few ago a lady joining our team and we always share 321 00:21:54.787 --> 00:21:59.663 this model and concepts with people because we always ask people, how do you 322 00:21:59.663 --> 00:22:04.464 like to be communicated with? Do you, do you prefer to have text messages or 323 00:22:04.464 --> 00:22:09.263 voice notes? Would you rather have an email? Just so that we're kind of, you 324 00:22:09.263 --> 00:22:12.360 know, giving people what they want and what they 325 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:17.159 need. But we explained this to this employee and she turned around to me and 326 00:22:17.159 --> 00:22:21.185 she said, oh my God. She said, I wish I had been told this 30 years 327 00:22:21.185 --> 00:22:25.364 ago. She said, I had a boss for 15 years who I just was always at odds 328 00:22:25.364 --> 00:22:29.777 with. And it's now just abundantly clear to me that we wanted the same 329 00:22:29.777 --> 00:22:33.880 thing. We were just communicating from a completely different 330 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:34.800 perspective. 331 00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:38.200 That's a really insightful way of putting it. We do all want the same 332 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:43.040 thing. We all want positive outcomes. We all want happy life. Nobody wakes up in the morning, wants to be a 333 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:48.020 dick. It just something, something happens, you know, and one person's dick is another person's 334 00:22:48.020 --> 00:22:52.980 friend. You know, it's just, it's your perception of that person and whether, 335 00:22:53.060 --> 00:22:56.940 as you say, we're doing those polar opposites and how we find a way of meeting in the 336 00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:01.460 middle. Yeah, it does imply or require 337 00:23:01.780 --> 00:23:06.660 the other person to be also receptive to try and lean into you as well as you having 338 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:09.220 to lean into them. Because it could be quite exhausting if you're always. 339 00:23:09.300 --> 00:23:13.760 I think so. I mean, my kind of advice to people 340 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:18.800 is that it, I think always easier to walk over to where someone else is, 341 00:23:18.800 --> 00:23:23.640 put your arm around them and try and bring them over to where you are together than it is to drag 342 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:28.080 them kicking and screaming to where you are. And if you want to 343 00:23:28.080 --> 00:23:32.760 influence, then unfortunately the onus is on you to put in that 344 00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:37.600 effort. Now, long term, in a relationship, if you're working with a colleague 345 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.580 closely and there's a. This continual conflict and misalignment, 346 00:23:42.580 --> 00:23:45.340 then we need to have a candid conversation about why that's 347 00:23:45.340 --> 00:23:50.260 happening. But in the moment, if I am trying to get sign 348 00:23:50.260 --> 00:23:55.220 off on a project from a leadership team that I don't interact with very often, or if I'm 349 00:23:55.220 --> 00:24:00.060 trying to close a sales deal with a prospect that I 350 00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:04.580 haven't had very much interaction with, then it's going to be to my 351 00:24:04.580 --> 00:24:09.540 advantage to be more flexible and to not insist that they flex, 352 00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:11.960 but actually to. To stack into those shoes. 353 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:15.120 Yeah, it's who's got the high ground, isn't 354 00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:18.920 it? It's who. If you're in a leadership position, you have the responsibility 355 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:24.840 to do the walking. Also, as an employee or as a 356 00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:29.640 subordinate, you also have the responsibility to lean in. But the onus is really on the person who is 357 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.880 controlling the conversation, as you're saying there, to walk over to 358 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.211 them or, you know, or the person who wants the outcome 359 00:24:36.211 --> 00:24:39.997 most. There's a kind of classic example of this from, from my 360 00:24:39.997 --> 00:24:44.766 life. I live up in Yorkshire now, but when I used to live in London, I was on the 361 00:24:44.766 --> 00:24:49.460 board of a children's charity in Westminster called Westminster Boating 362 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:52.942 Base. It was a charity that put kids on the 10 sailing and 363 00:24:52.942 --> 00:24:57.937 kayak. And it was a really small organisation, a couple of permanent members of 364 00:24:57.937 --> 00:25:02.783 staff and then this, this board of advisors. And each year the onus basically 365 00:25:02.783 --> 00:25:07.022 fell on one of the board members to roll up their sleeves and help the 366 00:25:07.022 --> 00:25:12.018 organisation run their big summer project. And so this particular year I was in 367 00:25:12.018 --> 00:25:16.485 the hot seat and I had found a whitewater kayaking centre in the south of 368 00:25:16.485 --> 00:25:20.346 France. And that was my kind of thing back then. So I was really 369 00:25:20.346 --> 00:25:24.888 excited. The facilities looked fantastic. It was beautiful, you know, 370 00:25:24.888 --> 00:25:27.689 sunshine, croissant, like, what more do you 371 00:25:27.689 --> 00:25:32.459 want? And we would genuinely do, but always dealing with inner city kids who 372 00:25:32.459 --> 00:25:37.230 very rarely left London, let alone left the uk. So I made a big pitch in a board 373 00:25:37.230 --> 00:25:40.864 meeting to have this place as the location for the next big 374 00:25:40.864 --> 00:25:45.860 trip. And I showed some photos of shiny, happy people having fun and I was really 375 00:25:45.860 --> 00:25:50.706 enthusiastic and told some great stories. And I'm thinking this absolutely 376 00:25:50.706 --> 00:25:54.567 nailed this. And so I finished my presentation and I said, any 377 00:25:54.567 --> 00:25:59.488 questions? And there was a guy on the board called Nigel, and Nigel was a former 378 00:25:59.488 --> 00:26:04.485 accountant. And Nigel put his hand up immediately and went, yeah, how much is it 379 00:26:04.485 --> 00:26:09.107 going to cost? And I went, well, I mean, I don't know because I haven't, you 380 00:26:09.107 --> 00:26:11.909 know, we don't know how many kids are going to 381 00:26:11.909 --> 00:26:14.484 come. It's, you know, just an idea at this 382 00:26:14.484 --> 00:26:17.437 stage. Well, how many instructor hours will we 383 00:26:17.437 --> 00:26:22.284 need? And again, Nigel, I couldn't possibly tell you because I don't know how 384 00:26:22.284 --> 00:26:25.390 many kids are going and I don't know how long we're 385 00:26:25.390 --> 00:26:29.554 going. How many miles will the minibus drive? And I'm like, are you 386 00:26:29.554 --> 00:26:33.265 kidding? Me, I have no idea how many miles the minibus would 387 00:26:33.265 --> 00:26:38.185 drive. And we basically got into a sort of stand up argument in this particular 388 00:26:38.185 --> 00:26:42.653 board meeting because I just couldn't believe why he hated children so 389 00:26:42.653 --> 00:26:47.498 much. Like, why are you going to be on this board if you're going to block all of 390 00:26:47.498 --> 00:26:50.754 this? And of course, the moment I walked out, I went, 391 00:26:50.754 --> 00:26:55.295 oh. I completely failed to speak Nigel's language, to anticipate any of 392 00:26:55.295 --> 00:27:00.066 Nigel's needs to think about the project in the way that he would think about 393 00:27:00.066 --> 00:27:03.095 it. So over the intervening weeks I wrote, I got a 394 00:27:03.095 --> 00:27:07.939 spreadsheet. I'm terrible at spreadsheets for, like, if it's this number of 395 00:27:07.939 --> 00:27:12.557 kids, it's this number of hours. If it's this number of kids, it costs this 396 00:27:12.557 --> 00:27:16.418 much. This went on Google Maps. How far is the minibus going to 397 00:27:16.418 --> 00:27:19.219 go? And I sent all of this stuff to the board in 398 00:27:19.219 --> 00:27:24.217 advance. At the next board meeting, the chair said, has everyone had a chance to 399 00:27:24.217 --> 00:27:27.246 read Dominic's report? Everyone said, yes. Any 400 00:27:27.246 --> 00:27:32.244 questions? Nigel put his hands up. I think you'll find that there's a mistake in 401 00:27:32.244 --> 00:27:35.802