WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.960 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:16.862 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey 3 00:00:16.862 --> 00:00:21.218 of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and 4 00:00:21.218 --> 00:00:25.927 societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to 5 00:00:25.927 --> 00:00:30.193 create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 6 00:00:30.193 --> 00:00:34.637 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 7 00:00:34.637 --> 00:00:39.258 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep 8 00:00:39.258 --> 00:00:44.044 within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your 9 00:00:44.044 --> 00:00:48.823 morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 10 00:00:48.823 --> 00:00:53.513 reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be 11 00:00:53.513 --> 00:00:56.670 part of the conversation too. Reach out to 12 00:00:56.670 --> 00:01:01.539 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or 13 00:01:01.539 --> 00:01:05.687 to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 14 00:01:05.687 --> 00:01:10.288 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 15 00:01:10.288 --> 00:01:15.230 Bites. And today 16 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:20.340 is episode 219 with the title Scaling With 17 00:01:20.340 --> 00:01:24.020 Clarity. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 18 00:01:24.980 --> 00:01:29.780 Amanda Rosazza. Amanda is a business strategist, leadership 19 00:01:29.780 --> 00:01:34.660 advisor who helps founders build scalable, structured, human centred companies where clarity, 20 00:01:34.740 --> 00:01:37.820 culture and sustainable growth go hand in 21 00:01:37.820 --> 00:01:42.620 hand. When I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it 22 00:01:42.620 --> 00:01:47.540 is combining strategic thinking with creative innovation to help leaders build smarter 23 00:01:47.540 --> 00:01:52.340 systems, grow stronger cultures and businesses that grow without burning 24 00:01:52.340 --> 00:01:55.220 people out. Hello, Amanda, welcome to the 25 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:55.500 show. 26 00:01:56.860 --> 00:01:59.660 Really excited to be here, Joanne, thanks for having me. 27 00:01:59.740 --> 00:02:04.220 Absolute pleasure and I love chatting. Before you turn the mic on in the green room, 28 00:02:05.660 --> 00:02:08.460 you told me a bit about where you're from. So where are you from in the world? 29 00:02:09.260 --> 00:02:12.540 So Brisbane, Australia. So down under, for those playing at 30 00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:12.860 home. 31 00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:17.870 So Australia down under. It's a big place down under, isn't 32 00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:20.510 it? I mean, Brisbane. So is that. That's east coast, is it? 33 00:02:20.990 --> 00:02:25.790 Yeah. So we're east coast, sort of a little more than halfway up in 34 00:02:25.790 --> 00:02:30.670 Queensland. So pretty nice weather at the moment, but we're starting to head towards 35 00:02:30.670 --> 00:02:32.510 winter, so it's going to get a little chilly. 36 00:02:32.990 --> 00:02:34.350 We're just coming into a hot bit. 37 00:02:35.150 --> 00:02:38.030 Yay. I much prefer warmer weather. 38 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:42.560 Doesn't get that hot, you know. Is Brisbane quite 39 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.080 warm? If you look back in Northern hemisphere terms, that's like south of 40 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.160 France. Is it? That's where it gets quite warm and 41 00:02:49.160 --> 00:02:49.560 sunny. 42 00:02:49.880 --> 00:02:53.480 It's kind of subtropical. So I'm just trying to think for 43 00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:58.400 Europe. Yeah. South of France. And I always say Florida, if you think 44 00:02:58.400 --> 00:02:59.240 of Florida. 45 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.120 Sticky lightning. 46 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:05.960 Yeah. Humid. And as much as we say it's going to get cold, it's our version of cold, 47 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.120 which is not very cold at all really. 48 00:03:08.890 --> 00:03:13.490 Okay, so you are kind of med. Yeah. Mediterranean, south of France, Spain 49 00:03:13.490 --> 00:03:15.450 type. Temperature. Very nice. 50 00:03:15.450 --> 00:03:19.530 Yeah. Yes. And then the further you go up the Queensland coast, the more like 51 00:03:19.530 --> 00:03:24.490 tropical. Tropical it gets. So like Gold coast when you get off the plane feels like 52 00:03:24.490 --> 00:03:27.250 bang. Yeah. Heat. Heat smashing you in the 53 00:03:27.250 --> 00:03:27.530 face. 54 00:03:27.850 --> 00:03:32.703 I remember that. That feeling. I was. I went to Cairo to look at the museum and we did the coach tour and we saw the 55 00:03:32.703 --> 00:03:37.594 pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx, all that kind of thing. I remember we sat in this coach for about an hour and 56 00:03:37.594 --> 00:03:42.540 that we got off and they opened the doors and it was like literally pulling the oven door open, sticking your 57 00:03:42.540 --> 00:03:43.040 head in it. 58 00:03:43.040 --> 00:03:43.560 It's real. 59 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:44.760 Yeah. 60 00:03:44.760 --> 00:03:48.640 Yes. It's. It's offensive. It's a lot. And if you're not prepared for 61 00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:51.560 it. Yeah. Adjustment period required. 62 00:03:51.799 --> 00:03:56.200 Yeah. I also went to the Dead Sea and swam in the Dead Sea, the one where you 63 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:59.600 float. And that was. The water was something like 64 00:03:59.600 --> 00:04:02.080 40. Now the temperature, air temperature was like 47 65 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.460 degrees. And it's like, boom. And then so you're getting 66 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:09.140 in. You're getting in the water. To think I'm going to get some respite by keeping 67 00:04:09.140 --> 00:04:12.220 cool. But the. The water was even hotter than the air 68 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:14.900 temperature. It's like everything is just too hot here. 69 00:04:15.700 --> 00:04:18.180 Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. But still 70 00:04:18.180 --> 00:04:20.660 recommend. Definitely worth swimming in the Dead Sea. 71 00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:23.554 Yeah. The whole. That whole area. It was in. It's 72 00:04:23.554 --> 00:04:27.966 in. We were in the. Israel. Israel side of the Dead Sea and we went to a place 73 00:04:27.966 --> 00:04:31.076 called. I think it's called Masada, which is a. Like 74 00:04:31.076 --> 00:04:35.273 a. It's a. It's a fort, which is up high, but technically it's below sea 75 00:04:35.273 --> 00:04:39.180 level. So the whole area is so below sea level that this high point 76 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:44.099 was. Was high, but below sea level or something. It's something really crazy that 77 00:04:44.099 --> 00:04:46.480 you think you're up high but you're not. 78 00:04:47.200 --> 00:04:47.599 Wow. 79 00:04:47.599 --> 00:04:50.800 Relatively. And it's a fascinating place. Lots of 80 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:51.920 history. Yeah, lots of history. 81 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.480 Yes. Yes, definitely on my bucket list. 82 00:04:54.880 --> 00:04:57.800 Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Put it. Put it near the top. If you ever come 83 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:02.160 into. Up this way, up north, of course, once there's less trouble going in the world because it's a 84 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:02.400 bit. 85 00:05:02.400 --> 00:05:02.880 Yes. 86 00:05:03.350 --> 00:05:05.030 So probably a no fly zone at the moment. 87 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:10.430 This is a good point. Yeah. Bit hairy out there at the moment. So move that to the side for 88 00:05:10.430 --> 00:05:11.470 now. Yes. 89 00:05:11.470 --> 00:05:14.230 Yeah. Just go to New Zealand. It's safer down 90 00:05:14.230 --> 00:05:14.550 south. 91 00:05:15.030 --> 00:05:19.590 Yeah, that's. That's a good plan. Just pop over to New Zealand, down to Tassie, maybe 92 00:05:20.070 --> 00:05:22.870 Hit up one of the islands. Yeah, much safer bet. 93 00:05:23.670 --> 00:05:28.390 Yeah. I was in, I was in Melbourne just before COVID actually. So that's, that's my, that's my limited 94 00:05:28.390 --> 00:05:33.090 exposure of, of Australia. I've got friends in Adelaide, but we never got 95 00:05:33.090 --> 00:05:37.970 further than that bottom strip. You know, the 12 apostles and the Great Ocean Road and 96 00:05:37.970 --> 00:05:38.690 that kind of stuff. 97 00:05:39.490 --> 00:05:44.290 Stunning. That's one of my most favourite parts of the world. No, Melbourne and Adelaide are beautiful 98 00:05:44.290 --> 00:05:46.210 cities. I'm sure you had an amazing time. 99 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:51.330 Definitely on the bucket list to go back once I can find a consultancy opportunity that pays for me to 100 00:05:51.330 --> 00:05:54.210 be there like they did last time. That was a work and pleasure. 101 00:05:54.940 --> 00:05:57.900 Oh, very good. Yes. Okay, we've got to tee that up for you. Definitely. 102 00:05:57.900 --> 00:06:00.780 We do, we do, we do. Hopefully this podcast will be a launch platform for 103 00:06:00.780 --> 00:06:02.060 that. Who knows? Hinted. 104 00:06:02.460 --> 00:06:03.260 Outstanding. 105 00:06:03.260 --> 00:06:08.220 So in your bio we talked about creative thinking and strategic thinking and 106 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:13.140 helping leaders build smarter systems. And when we're chatting in the green room, we're talking about what makes a great leader and 107 00:06:13.140 --> 00:06:16.740 how leaders can, can implement great systems in their business and 108 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:17.620 that. That's what you do. 109 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:22.580 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so one thing we spoke about that 110 00:06:22.580 --> 00:06:27.400 I'd love to kick us off with because it's such an important point as much systems and 111 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:31.480 processes, it's not about creating this one size fits all 112 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:36.280 environment. So we were talking about, you know, that scenario where you've got sort of 113 00:06:36.280 --> 00:06:39.800 your, your task focused detail or thinking oriented 114 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:44.680 people. They do not want to do the same things, socially or otherwise that your people 115 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:49.560 focused, sort of big picture acting oriented people want to do so and that's 116 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.360 one of the frameworks that we use when we're having these conversations and helping leaders 117 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:59.220 to set their teams up to win. So being able to an environment 118 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:04.180 where everyone can do their best work and wants to do their best work because they 119 00:07:04.260 --> 00:07:09.140 are comfortable and set up to win is so important. And one of the first things to understand 120 00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:14.100 as a leader is that not everyone is wired the same. So we can't just all expect 121 00:07:14.260 --> 00:07:19.180 everyone to want to do the same things in the same way, which I think is really fascinating and 122 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:19.460 important. 123 00:07:20.820 --> 00:07:25.506 So people talk. Probably equate this to things like DISC profiling and Myers Briggs and 124 00:07:25.506 --> 00:07:29.485 those kind of things. I assume we're talking about something beyond those 125 00:07:29.485 --> 00:07:30.060 concepts. 126 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:34.300 Look, it comes from a tool that we use in the Reach 127 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:39.260 ecosystem. So it is fundamentally that is where it starts, but it does build 128 00:07:39.260 --> 00:07:43.980 so much further than that. And they are a helpful 129 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:48.900 tool to gain a base level understanding of how People think and 130 00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:53.260 how people show up, but there's just so much more to people than just 131 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:58.530 that. So it's a great tool for a base level understanding and 132 00:07:58.530 --> 00:08:03.450 we should definitely use it but then we need to sort of go a few steps deeper 133 00:08:03.450 --> 00:08:05.210 and a few steps further as well. 134 00:08:05.370 --> 00:08:08.544 Yeah, I agree. I, I like DISC and Myers Briggs as, as a 135 00:08:08.544 --> 00:08:13.266 baseline. I'm not going to diss it too much, you know, bit like a horoscope, it 136 00:08:13.266 --> 00:08:17.913 kind of gives you a sort of leaning in. You could sort of see yourself, you can 137 00:08:17.913 --> 00:08:22.708 identify yourself in what they tell you but it's what you do with it that's the, 138 00:08:22.708 --> 00:08:24.250 the challenge, isn't it? 139 00:08:24.610 --> 00:08:29.170 That's it. And so we sort of use it as a common language tool 140 00:08:29.650 --> 00:08:34.250 so that we can give people context and they can, you know, look at 141 00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:38.810 themselves and the rest of their team on a quadrant and get that base level 142 00:08:38.810 --> 00:08:43.770 understanding to go and engage in a conversation or engage in a project and then it's up to 143 00:08:43.770 --> 00:08:46.530 them to get to know the person behind the 144 00:08:46.530 --> 00:08:47.090 profile. 145 00:08:47.890 --> 00:08:52.760 Yeah. Do you think people are generally are aware of others 146 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.120 and others needs or we also self centred? 147 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:00.280 I think it's, I think in a lot of cases of course there are our 148 00:09:00.280 --> 00:09:05.080 outliers. I think in a lot of cases people assume that everyone is the same 149 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.800 as them and it's an ignorance or just not having sat down and thought 150 00:09:09.800 --> 00:09:14.600 about if I'm going to go and ask Joanne to help me with this project, what does Joanne 151 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:19.200 need to win? It's we, we think about okay, how would 152 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:24.100 Amanda succeed in this situation? Not necessarily the person that we're working with 153 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:27.620 or we're delegating it to or we're giving the opportunity 154 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:32.420 to. So I think in a roundabout way, to answer your question, I think 155 00:09:32.420 --> 00:09:36.300 it's, it's, it's ignorance and maybe. Well no, not 156 00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:40.340 maybe. I know the organisation doesn't give the training or 157 00:09:41.140 --> 00:09:43.940 the right guidance and it's not something we're taught in 158 00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:48.780 school. Right. So unless we've proactively gone and done some kind 159 00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:53.740 of professional or personal development, we just don't have the tools to, to think that 160 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:55.760 way is belief. What do you think? 161 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.480 Yeah, I do agree. I also believe, if you believe this, that 162 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:06.280 emotional intelligence is a learned behaviour. You can learn emotional intelligence, you can learn leadership 163 00:10:06.280 --> 00:10:10.240 skills, you can learn cultural intelligence. Because I've got 164 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.320 a line in my sand in my history where I wasn't self aware 165 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:21.440 and then I became self aware. That first stage of emotional 166 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:25.480 intelligence. Do you really care how you show up and what people think of 167 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.720 you. Most people go, ah, I'm old enough and ugly enough 168 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.680 now. I don't care what people think of me. I'm over 40. Whatever it is. I went the other way when I got 169 00:10:33.680 --> 00:10:37.800 over 40. I started realising that it did matter. And relationships are far better 170 00:10:38.680 --> 00:10:42.600 when you adapt your style and thinking to other 171 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:43.240 people's. 172 00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:48.930 Absolutely. No, I wholeheartedly agree. And I definitely had that line in the 173 00:10:48.930 --> 00:10:53.690 sand moment myself and just kind of gone, oh, wait, I can get much better outcomes 174 00:10:53.770 --> 00:10:58.730 and I feel better and they feel better and everybody wins when we're conscious and 175 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:03.610 proactive and start with that in mind. It's such a powerful change in 176 00:11:04.010 --> 00:11:06.010 mindset and behaviour. Absolutely agree. 177 00:11:06.570 --> 00:11:09.850 Yeah. And the other challenge is that we're 178 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:14.010 so. Well, of course we're going to think through our own lived experience, our own lens, 179 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:19.840 and there's a huge cognitive load to put yourself to one 180 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.200 side and factor in all of the other people in the 181 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:27.000 room. And having to time slice your communication style, 182 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.360 so much easier. Just be you and talk about you. And so you've got to try and retrain the 183 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.640 plasticity of your brain to think in a different way, haven't 184 00:11:36.640 --> 00:11:36.920 you? 185 00:11:37.880 --> 00:11:40.360 Absolutely true. And you're 100% 186 00:11:40.520 --> 00:11:45.160 right. The first, you know, especially if you're interacting with a lot of different people 187 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.300 who show up in a lot of different ways, totally drains the 188 00:11:48.300 --> 00:11:53.100 battery. Right. Because we're having to reach into these different. You know, the 189 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:57.780 beauty of it is it's like a muscle. The more you work it, the stronger it becomes and the 190 00:11:57.780 --> 00:12:02.620 easier it becomes to be more, I guess, elastic and sort of even if you 191 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:07.420 haven't interacted with someone before, read the room and go, okay, I can tell what 192 00:12:07.420 --> 00:12:12.340 this person needs to set them up for success so that we can have a great interaction and this project 193 00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:16.060 succeeds or the podcast succeeds or whatever it happens to 194 00:12:16.060 --> 00:12:16.340 be. 195 00:12:16.940 --> 00:12:21.260 Yeah, I was definitely more extrovert 196 00:12:21.260 --> 00:12:24.380 leaning before I crossed this line in the 197 00:12:24.380 --> 00:12:28.780 sand. I think now I'm very much more introvert leaning because 198 00:12:29.660 --> 00:12:34.340 being in high density environments with lots of people, it is emotionally 199 00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:36.660 draining having to really absorb each 200 00:12:36.660 --> 00:12:40.180 individual. Whereas an extrovert, I probably didn't care so 201 00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:40.460 much. 202 00:12:41.500 --> 00:12:45.800 That's a really good point and I would agree with that because I, I would 203 00:12:45.800 --> 00:12:50.520 definitely say the same of myself. Just, yeah, the, 204 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:55.400 the more, just when you're in those environments, when there's more people 205 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.800 now, like a couple of weeks ago we did a three day off site with a client 206 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:05.160 room full of sort of 20 people. First day was planning, second two days were their 207 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:08.160 cultural embedment programme. Awesome 208 00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:12.340 programme. We do. So we do the two days where I'm co 209 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:17.100 facilitating and we do this thing called the Special Objects dinner, where someone 210 00:13:17.180 --> 00:13:22.020 brings something that's really special to them and, you know, it tells the 211 00:13:22.020 --> 00:13:26.780 storey and it can get quite emotional. But it's a great way for the team to get to know each other 212 00:13:27.020 --> 00:13:30.380 in sort of a safe environment because they've spent the first day 213 00:13:30.380 --> 00:13:34.780 together. By the end of that, I'd say 10 years ago 214 00:13:35.910 --> 00:13:39.470 I would have been totally fine, but now I'm. I'm like, I can't talk to 215 00:13:39.470 --> 00:13:42.110 him. Totally done by the end of that 216 00:13:42.110 --> 00:13:46.870 dinner. Because you're showing up in a way that gets the best result for 217 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:49.790 everybody else in the room, not just you. So, yeah, 218 00:13:49.790 --> 00:13:52.150 it's. I would absolutely agree with that 219 00:13:52.150 --> 00:13:52.790 completely. 220 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:57.330 Maybe without realising, I've maybe just redefined introversion and extroversion just 221 00:13:57.330 --> 00:13:57.508 by. 222 00:13:57.510 --> 00:13:58.110 I think so. 223 00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:00.910 Yep. The amount I care about absorbing that 224 00:14:00.910 --> 00:14:04.760 energy. Whereas before I had a safety valve and I didn't. Yeah, maybe that's 225 00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:04.880 it. 226 00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:08.920 Yeah, that's it. And you just kind of just firing off and you're either with me or against 227 00:14:08.920 --> 00:14:12.200 me. Let's. Let's go. Whereas. Yeah, that's 228 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:15.120 it. No. Yes. We have done great work so 229 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:15.840 far. Look at us. 230 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.880 We have. I mean, I can feel the podcast has achieved its mission 231 00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:20.040 already. It's fantastic. 232 00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:21.560 Exactly. Excellent work, team. 233 00:14:21.800 --> 00:14:26.560 So we talked in the green room about, you know, the people 234 00:14:26.560 --> 00:14:29.440 who like the rigid structure and people 235 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:34.090 who. Who like the fuzzy edges and people who just. Like an open 236 00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:34.490 field. 237 00:14:35.290 --> 00:14:35.690 Right. 238 00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:40.170 It's. It's from an organisational point of view, when you're talking about 239 00:14:42.170 --> 00:14:47.050 an organisation that has to maybe is looking to be sold or wants good structure or investment or whatever, things 240 00:14:47.050 --> 00:14:51.890 like that, you have to have rigid. Well, rigid policies and structure, don't 241 00:14:51.890 --> 00:14:52.170 you? 242 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:57.460 You do, yeah. So. So something that. Where. So if we're looking at sort 243 00:14:57.460 --> 00:15:00.380 of your standard operating procedures. So policies are one thing, 244 00:15:00.380 --> 00:15:05.220 right? They're. They're pretty fixed and they make sure that we're compliant and legal and 245 00:15:05.220 --> 00:15:09.980 all of those things. But if we look at the procedures. So how do we create wins for 246 00:15:10.220 --> 00:15:14.860 our leadership team, for our team and our clients, our 247 00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:19.340 guests, our customers, whoever it might be. Being able to give people 248 00:15:19.420 --> 00:15:24.380 guardrails as opposed to rigid standard operating procedures is 249 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:29.200 something that's really powerful. And we talk about SOPs or standard operating procedures for the real 250 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.720 world. So how do we set up everybody that's going to read this 251 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:38.680 procedure to win Making sure that it's not just written by one type of human 252 00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:43.360 for a hypothetical situation. We actually sit down with the different players in the 253 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:48.040 organisation and understand how they get things done and how people who are 254 00:15:48.040 --> 00:15:52.280 winning get things done so that they get that everyone's having a great 255 00:15:52.280 --> 00:15:56.630 experience. So. And a lot of that is understanding the different 256 00:15:56.710 --> 00:16:01.670 personalities and the different approaches to work so that people, you know, I always say this, you know, 257 00:16:01.670 --> 00:16:06.550 we want people to be able to do their best work, so we give them the tools and they want to 258 00:16:06.550 --> 00:16:10.670 do their best work because we've set them up to win and play to their strengths, 259 00:16:10.670 --> 00:16:11.190 essentially. 260 00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:16.550 I've worked in environments where you can clearly see that people operating 261 00:16:16.550 --> 00:16:20.390 at different speeds with different core values and rule sets, 262 00:16:21.520 --> 00:16:26.320 there are. There are certain group of people who almost like pulling you back with chains going, 263 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:31.320 whoa, slow down. We just think about this more carefully when you do this. Other people go, well, we just got to run for the finish 264 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.280 line. We've got to go and do this. You know what people in the middle go, we need a process for this, we need a process for 265 00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:39.520 that. What we're going to have. It's a real nightmare in a business where you've got all these competing things and everyone's getting 266 00:16:39.520 --> 00:16:42.800 frustrated. This person's not playing by the rules, this person's got too many 267 00:16:42.800 --> 00:16:45.280 rules. This person won't do anything. I can't make a decision. 268 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.030 Yes, it's real. It's real. It is a 269 00:16:49.030 --> 00:16:52.710 nightmare. It's. It comes. Becomes quite chaotic. So 270 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:58.590 as much as we give position it. So we give our rule followers what they're 271 00:16:58.590 --> 00:17:01.110 craving. So we give them. Here's the standard operating 272 00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:05.910 procedure. Those that want a little bit more fluidity, 273 00:17:05.990 --> 00:17:10.790 but we still need you to colour inside the lines to get this result and 274 00:17:10.870 --> 00:17:15.510 helping them have guardrails so that they can still be their best selves within 275 00:17:16.170 --> 00:17:21.050 the guardrails and really driving home, ultimately show 276 00:17:21.050 --> 00:17:25.090 up as best. However you do your best work. I need the result to look like 277 00:17:25.090 --> 00:17:30.010 this. As long as you give me this result, we're good. And that's a big part of how we 278 00:17:30.010 --> 00:17:32.450 write procedures and embed them in 279 00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:37.290 organisations. There's often more than, you know, multiple ways to 280 00:17:37.290 --> 00:17:41.450 get things done. Ultimately, as long as the result is the gold standard 281 00:17:42.230 --> 00:17:46.470 that goes out to the client or the guests or the customer, then we're good, 282 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:46.870 really. 283 00:17:48.390 --> 00:17:53.270 So the other sort of person often described maybe is the gifted jerk, 284 00:17:53.510 --> 00:17:58.350 the person who is too big to fail. Arrogant top 285 00:17:58.350 --> 00:18:03.270 salesperson. I'm untouchable and I always think well, actually, that's the person 286 00:18:03.270 --> 00:18:08.150 you need to fire first because they're not helping the organisation, they're creating toxic environment 287 00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:12.900 or something. So how can you encourage this, the team player from somebody who's 288 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:14.220 clearly a loner? 289 00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:18.106 Look, that is a tough one. To your point, I 290 00:18:18.106 --> 00:18:22.293 would. So if I was going into that organisation, I'd put them in a 291 00:18:22.293 --> 00:18:26.006 development programme and just see if we're coachable, 292 00:18:26.006 --> 00:18:28.297 essentially. Or am I here to ruffle 293 00:18:28.297 --> 00:18:32.168 feathers? And we've been in organisations where both have 294 00:18:32.168 --> 00:18:36.671 been. The case had great results when they just needed a little bit of 295 00:18:36.671 --> 00:18:41.332 guidance or often it's helping the others leverage them, if that makes 296 00:18:41.332 --> 00:18:46.230 sense. So if there's something that they are genuinely really good at, not 297 00:18:46.230 --> 00:18:50.180 to play into their ego also, just leverage what they're good 298 00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:53.972 at. So if they are a gun sales person, okay, let's leverage 299 00:18:53.972 --> 00:18:58.396 it. Little boost to their ego. And we all win because we're learning 300 00:18:58.396 --> 00:19:02.741 something. Also, we tend to hold onto bad hires or people that have 301 00:19:02.741 --> 00:19:07.086 overstayed their welcome. So we have had situations where we've, 302 00:19:07.086 --> 00:19:11.984 We've. We've had to, you know, make those tough decisions because they're 303 00:19:11.984 --> 00:19:16.724 not meeting the requirements of their position as a, shall we say, a side 304 00:19:16.724 --> 00:19:20.121 effect of that behaviour. So it depends is the short 305 00:19:20.121 --> 00:19:20.660 answer. 306 00:19:21.380 --> 00:19:24.780 I was in exactly that position where this is going back into the 307 00:19:24.780 --> 00:19:29.620 mid-90s. I was working for a large bank. And I remember our HR business 308 00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:34.590 partner, whatever they were called at the time, came to us and said, so and so's probation is up at the 309 00:19:34.590 --> 00:19:38.950 end of the week. Do you want to keep them? It was like what we 310 00:19:38.950 --> 00:19:42.390 were. We were on the cusp of. This person wasn't really. They were kind of 311 00:19:42.390 --> 00:19:45.950 okay. Not okay, kind of. And they sort of said, look, we got three 312 00:19:45.950 --> 00:19:50.110 days. And then we're stuck with them in the nicest possible 313 00:19:50.110 --> 00:19:51.270 way. You know, we're committed. 314 00:19:51.270 --> 00:19:51.790 Yeah. Yeah. 315 00:19:51.790 --> 00:19:52.270 For a while. 316 00:19:52.270 --> 00:19:53.470 We're committed. 100. 317 00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:58.470 We're committed. And I remember my, My manager and I, we sat there and we looked at each other and 318 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:02.880 went, wow. It seems very cold and calculated. This is a human being and they've got a 319 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:03.160 family. 320 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:04.520 Yeah, yeah. 321 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:09.600 Could we make this really cold decision to terminate them or are 322 00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:14.400 they. They're all right, really. They're a nice person. And we fell down on 323 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.840 the. They're a nice person. And we decided that they were 324 00:20:18.840 --> 00:20:23.120 nice. They were lovely. They were a bit ineffectual. They were. We always get frustrated with 325 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:27.680 them. And then six months later, we're all looking at each other going, we should have, we should have cut 326 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:28.810 them. Should have cut them. 327 00:20:28.810 --> 00:20:29.370 Yeah. 328 00:20:29.610 --> 00:20:34.330 And it's, you have to make that wrong decision once to learn the wrong decision, 329 00:20:34.330 --> 00:20:34.890 don't you? 330 00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:40.770 Well, exactly. And I've been there myself. I've, I've held on to team members to be 331 00:20:40.770 --> 00:20:44.730 like, oh, they're so lovely, but they, you know, they're costing you money 332 00:20:44.810 --> 00:20:49.650 ultimately. You know, as we're running a business, not a charity, we need to make money 333 00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:53.370 or we won't be there for anybody to take home their paycheck 334 00:20:53.370 --> 00:20:58.250 ultimately. So. And what I find interesting, you know, you're talking about that happening a 335 00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:03.190 little while ago. It still happens. I it with. I don't think I've had a client I've ever 336 00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:07.470 worked with that did not have that person that they held onto because they were 337 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:12.390 nice. And I think one thing we do roll out in organisations that solves 338 00:21:12.390 --> 00:21:15.670 a lot of this is if you onboard people really 339 00:21:15.749 --> 00:21:20.310 effectively. So that first week, that first month, that first 90 days, 340 00:21:20.550 --> 00:21:25.430 and you really, I want to say, indoctrinate them into your culture 341 00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:30.150 and help them understand what a great insert position name here 342 00:21:30.230 --> 00:21:34.710 looks like, what an A player looks like. And you make that really clear from the start 343 00:21:34.870 --> 00:21:37.790 and the speed at which we move and all of those 344 00:21:37.790 --> 00:21:42.150 things. If you're clear on that, you do cultural fit in your interviewing 345 00:21:42.230 --> 00:21:47.150 stage, you do rapid values alignment in the interview stage and you get clear on 346 00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:51.990 that and then do a really good onboarding. Someone like that will generally 347 00:21:52.150 --> 00:21:57.110 self select out before the end of their probation or you do have that opportunity to 348 00:21:57.110 --> 00:22:02.050 coach them through that probation period, or don't wait till you get to the end if they're 349 00:22:02.050 --> 00:22:07.010 not a good fit and you, you know, if you've got that robust onboarding and the data is telling you 350 00:22:07.010 --> 00:22:11.890 they're not the right person. Okay, let's, let's set them up for success by letting them 351 00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:15.809 go and, and let them go and win in the right environment for 352 00:22:15.809 --> 00:22:20.690 them. Because if you're keeping them where they can't win or they can't do their best work, 353 00:22:20.770 --> 00:22:25.650 then you know, it's not good for anybody really. So if you, I think if we change 354 00:22:25.650 --> 00:22:29.090 the, I guess, framing a little bit, you're not doing them any favours 355 00:22:29.090 --> 00:22:29.490 either. 356 00:22:30.390 --> 00:22:33.550 Yeah, it's a fair enough. This role isn't for 357 00:22:33.550 --> 00:22:36.470 you. There are other roles that are for you, but they're just not 358 00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:36.790 here. 359 00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:40.430 Yeah, it's beautifully said, Joanne. Beautifully 360 00:22:40.430 --> 00:22:44.070 said. And I think that's what we encourage our leaders to 361 00:22:44.070 --> 00:22:48.150 say. There's so much opportunity out there. This isn't the right 362 00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:50.310 fit. There will be a right fit for you. 363 00:22:51.590 --> 00:22:56.277 Could grab might actually be us and not you. It might be that the culture we've created 364 00:22:56.277 --> 00:22:59.381 isn't for you. And actually you can find somewhere where 365 00:22:59.381 --> 00:23:02.419 you. You create a sense of belonging somewhere else and 366 00:23:02.419 --> 00:23:03.343 you. You thrive. 367 00:23:04.310 --> 00:23:09.110 Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think there's this, or at least I notice it 368 00:23:09.110 --> 00:23:14.070 here. There's this underlying assumption that anyone who has the right experience or the 369 00:23:14.070 --> 00:23:18.230 right qualifications or even the right drive can slot into any role in any 370 00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:23.110 organisation. It's just not. It's just not the case. So I 371 00:23:23.110 --> 00:23:27.190 think educating people or helping them see that, and especially, you know, 372 00:23:27.190 --> 00:23:32.020 I. I know a lot of recruiters are talking about that now. Just because a job is advertised doesn't 373 00:23:32.020 --> 00:23:36.860 mean. And the money is right and the conditions are right, doesn't mean it's the right 374 00:23:36.860 --> 00:23:37.340 fit. 375 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:42.380 Yeah. And that's what the onboarding and selection process should all be about, is to 376 00:23:42.860 --> 00:23:45.619 make sure that you both come out of demo 377 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:46.059 mode. 378 00:23:47.260 --> 00:23:47.980 Exactly. 379 00:23:48.140 --> 00:23:52.140 Is that stuff in the review mode? Not. Or the not actual game footage sort of thing, isn't 380 00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:54.300 it? You know, this is just a pretend environment. 381 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:56.380 Exactly. 382 00:23:56.540 --> 00:24:01.110 We're both BSing each other. You're trying to sell me the role and I'm trying to sell you 383 00:24:01.110 --> 00:24:01.430 me. 384 00:24:02.550 --> 00:24:05.350 Yeah, exactly, yeah. 385 00:24:05.350 --> 00:24:10.150 And that's when we get to demo mode. Get the covers off quickly and go, well, what's the reality 386 00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:14.670 here? Yes. It's a shit place to work and I don't like it or whatever it may 387 00:24:14.670 --> 00:24:14.950 be. 388 00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:19.750 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if we. More of that honesty up front 389 00:24:20.710 --> 00:24:23.590 just sets everyone up to win. But, yeah, absolutely. 390 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:28.400 So. So the biggest favour you can do for yourselves out there, team, 391 00:24:29.840 --> 00:24:34.520 be vigilant when you're doing your recruitment process, rapid values 392 00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:39.280 alignment, cultural fit. And then if your onboarding is 393 00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:45.000 robust and you have clear milestones where they should be performing week 394 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.920 one, month one, like first 90 days, then everyone's set up for win and you'll know 395 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.000 pretty quickly whether you have fit or not. 396 00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:57.210 Let's dive into. You mentioned culture fit a couple of times, and that's a very subjective thing, isn't 397 00:24:57.210 --> 00:25:01.930 it? And it's, you know, we've got to be careful here. So what is culture fit done well 398 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:05.530 and when is culture fit done badly? Let's talk about the difference of 399 00:25:05.530 --> 00:25:05.770 those. 400 00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:11.890 So I always look at it from the perspective of you've got your vision, your 401 00:25:11.890 --> 00:25:16.850