Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold
Joanne Lockwood: conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey
Joanne Lockwood: of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and
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Joanne Lockwood: in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites. And today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode 219 with the title Scaling With
Joanne Lockwood: Clarity. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda Rosazza. Amanda is a business strategist, leadership
Joanne Lockwood: advisor who helps founders build scalable, structured, human centred companies where clarity,
Joanne Lockwood: culture and sustainable growth go hand in
Joanne Lockwood: hand. When I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it
Joanne Lockwood: is combining strategic thinking with creative innovation to help leaders build smarter
Joanne Lockwood: systems, grow stronger cultures and businesses that grow without burning
Joanne Lockwood: people out. Hello, Amanda, welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show.
Amanda Rosazza: Really excited to be here, Joanne, thanks for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure and I love chatting. Before you turn the mic on in the green room,
Joanne Lockwood: you told me a bit about where you're from. So where are you from in the world?
Amanda Rosazza: So Brisbane, Australia. So down under, for those playing at
Amanda Rosazza: home.
Joanne Lockwood: So Australia down under. It's a big place down under, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? I mean, Brisbane. So is that. That's east coast, is it?
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. So we're east coast, sort of a little more than halfway up in
Amanda Rosazza: Queensland. So pretty nice weather at the moment, but we're starting to head towards
Amanda Rosazza: winter, so it's going to get a little chilly.
Joanne Lockwood: We're just coming into a hot bit.
Amanda Rosazza: Yay. I much prefer warmer weather.
Joanne Lockwood: Doesn't get that hot, you know. Is Brisbane quite
Joanne Lockwood: warm? If you look back in Northern hemisphere terms, that's like south of
Joanne Lockwood: France. Is it? That's where it gets quite warm and
Joanne Lockwood: sunny.
Amanda Rosazza: It's kind of subtropical. So I'm just trying to think for
Amanda Rosazza: Europe. Yeah. South of France. And I always say Florida, if you think
Amanda Rosazza: of Florida.
Joanne Lockwood: Sticky lightning.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Humid. And as much as we say it's going to get cold, it's our version of cold,
Amanda Rosazza: which is not very cold at all really.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so you are kind of med. Yeah. Mediterranean, south of France, Spain
Joanne Lockwood: type. Temperature. Very nice.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Yes. And then the further you go up the Queensland coast, the more like
Amanda Rosazza: tropical. Tropical it gets. So like Gold coast when you get off the plane feels like
Amanda Rosazza: bang. Yeah. Heat. Heat smashing you in the
Amanda Rosazza: face.
Joanne Lockwood: I remember that. That feeling. I was. I went to Cairo to look at the museum and we did the coach tour and we saw the
Joanne Lockwood: pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx, all that kind of thing. I remember we sat in this coach for about an hour and
Joanne Lockwood: that we got off and they opened the doors and it was like literally pulling the oven door open, sticking your
Joanne Lockwood: head in it.
Amanda Rosazza: It's real.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. It's. It's offensive. It's a lot. And if you're not prepared for
Amanda Rosazza: it. Yeah. Adjustment period required.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I also went to the Dead Sea and swam in the Dead Sea, the one where you
Joanne Lockwood: float. And that was. The water was something like
Joanne Lockwood: 40. Now the temperature, air temperature was like 47
Joanne Lockwood: degrees. And it's like, boom. And then so you're getting
Joanne Lockwood: in. You're getting in the water. To think I'm going to get some respite by keeping
Joanne Lockwood: cool. But the. The water was even hotter than the air
Joanne Lockwood: temperature. It's like everything is just too hot here.
Amanda Rosazza: Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. But still
Amanda Rosazza: recommend. Definitely worth swimming in the Dead Sea.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The whole. That whole area. It was in. It's
Joanne Lockwood: in. We were in the. Israel. Israel side of the Dead Sea and we went to a place
Joanne Lockwood: called. I think it's called Masada, which is a. Like
Joanne Lockwood: a. It's a. It's a fort, which is up high, but technically it's below sea
Joanne Lockwood: level. So the whole area is so below sea level that this high point
Joanne Lockwood: was. Was high, but below sea level or something. It's something really crazy that
Joanne Lockwood: you think you're up high but you're not.
Amanda Rosazza: Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: Relatively. And it's a fascinating place. Lots of
Joanne Lockwood: history. Yeah, lots of history.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. Yes, definitely on my bucket list.
Joanne Lockwood: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Put it. Put it near the top. If you ever come
Joanne Lockwood: into. Up this way, up north, of course, once there's less trouble going in the world because it's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: So probably a no fly zone at the moment.
Amanda Rosazza: This is a good point. Yeah. Bit hairy out there at the moment. So move that to the side for
Amanda Rosazza: now. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Just go to New Zealand. It's safer down
Joanne Lockwood: south.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's. That's a good plan. Just pop over to New Zealand, down to Tassie, maybe
Amanda Rosazza: Hit up one of the islands. Yeah, much safer bet.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I was in, I was in Melbourne just before COVID actually. So that's, that's my, that's my limited
Joanne Lockwood: exposure of, of Australia. I've got friends in Adelaide, but we never got
Joanne Lockwood: further than that bottom strip. You know, the 12 apostles and the Great Ocean Road and
Joanne Lockwood: that kind of stuff.
Amanda Rosazza: Stunning. That's one of my most favourite parts of the world. No, Melbourne and Adelaide are beautiful
Amanda Rosazza: cities. I'm sure you had an amazing time.
Joanne Lockwood: Definitely on the bucket list to go back once I can find a consultancy opportunity that pays for me to
Joanne Lockwood: be there like they did last time. That was a work and pleasure.
Amanda Rosazza: Oh, very good. Yes. Okay, we've got to tee that up for you. Definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: We do, we do, we do. Hopefully this podcast will be a launch platform for
Joanne Lockwood: that. Who knows? Hinted.
Amanda Rosazza: Outstanding.
Joanne Lockwood: So in your bio we talked about creative thinking and strategic thinking and
Joanne Lockwood: helping leaders build smarter systems. And when we're chatting in the green room, we're talking about what makes a great leader and
Joanne Lockwood: how leaders can, can implement great systems in their business and
Joanne Lockwood: that. That's what you do.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so one thing we spoke about that
Amanda Rosazza: I'd love to kick us off with because it's such an important point as much systems and
Amanda Rosazza: processes, it's not about creating this one size fits all
Amanda Rosazza: environment. So we were talking about, you know, that scenario where you've got sort of
Amanda Rosazza: your, your task focused detail or thinking oriented
Amanda Rosazza: people. They do not want to do the same things, socially or otherwise that your people
Amanda Rosazza: focused, sort of big picture acting oriented people want to do so and that's
Amanda Rosazza: one of the frameworks that we use when we're having these conversations and helping leaders
Amanda Rosazza: to set their teams up to win. So being able to an environment
Amanda Rosazza: where everyone can do their best work and wants to do their best work because they
Amanda Rosazza: are comfortable and set up to win is so important. And one of the first things to understand
Amanda Rosazza: as a leader is that not everyone is wired the same. So we can't just all expect
Amanda Rosazza: everyone to want to do the same things in the same way, which I think is really fascinating and
Amanda Rosazza: important.
Joanne Lockwood: So people talk. Probably equate this to things like DISC profiling and Myers Briggs and
Joanne Lockwood: those kind of things. I assume we're talking about something beyond those
Joanne Lockwood: concepts.
Amanda Rosazza: Look, it comes from a tool that we use in the Reach
Amanda Rosazza: ecosystem. So it is fundamentally that is where it starts, but it does build
Amanda Rosazza: so much further than that. And they are a helpful
Amanda Rosazza: tool to gain a base level understanding of how People think and
Amanda Rosazza: how people show up, but there's just so much more to people than just
Amanda Rosazza: that. So it's a great tool for a base level understanding and
Amanda Rosazza: we should definitely use it but then we need to sort of go a few steps deeper
Amanda Rosazza: and a few steps further as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I agree. I, I like DISC and Myers Briggs as, as a
Joanne Lockwood: baseline. I'm not going to diss it too much, you know, bit like a horoscope, it
Joanne Lockwood: kind of gives you a sort of leaning in. You could sort of see yourself, you can
Joanne Lockwood: identify yourself in what they tell you but it's what you do with it that's the,
Joanne Lockwood: the challenge, isn't it?
Amanda Rosazza: That's it. And so we sort of use it as a common language tool
Amanda Rosazza: so that we can give people context and they can, you know, look at
Amanda Rosazza: themselves and the rest of their team on a quadrant and get that base level
Amanda Rosazza: understanding to go and engage in a conversation or engage in a project and then it's up to
Amanda Rosazza: them to get to know the person behind the
Amanda Rosazza: profile.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Do you think people are generally are aware of others
Joanne Lockwood: and others needs or we also self centred?
Amanda Rosazza: I think it's, I think in a lot of cases of course there are our
Amanda Rosazza: outliers. I think in a lot of cases people assume that everyone is the same
Amanda Rosazza: as them and it's an ignorance or just not having sat down and thought
Amanda Rosazza: about if I'm going to go and ask Joanne to help me with this project, what does Joanne
Amanda Rosazza: need to win? It's we, we think about okay, how would
Amanda Rosazza: Amanda succeed in this situation? Not necessarily the person that we're working with
Amanda Rosazza: or we're delegating it to or we're giving the opportunity
Amanda Rosazza: to. So I think in a roundabout way, to answer your question, I think
Amanda Rosazza: it's, it's, it's ignorance and maybe. Well no, not
Amanda Rosazza: maybe. I know the organisation doesn't give the training or
Amanda Rosazza: the right guidance and it's not something we're taught in
Amanda Rosazza: school. Right. So unless we've proactively gone and done some kind
Amanda Rosazza: of professional or personal development, we just don't have the tools to, to think that
Amanda Rosazza: way is belief. What do you think?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I do agree. I also believe, if you believe this, that
Joanne Lockwood: emotional intelligence is a learned behaviour. You can learn emotional intelligence, you can learn leadership
Joanne Lockwood: skills, you can learn cultural intelligence. Because I've got
Joanne Lockwood: a line in my sand in my history where I wasn't self aware
Joanne Lockwood: and then I became self aware. That first stage of emotional
Joanne Lockwood: intelligence. Do you really care how you show up and what people think of
Joanne Lockwood: you. Most people go, ah, I'm old enough and ugly enough
Joanne Lockwood: now. I don't care what people think of me. I'm over 40. Whatever it is. I went the other way when I got
Joanne Lockwood: over 40. I started realising that it did matter. And relationships are far better
Joanne Lockwood: when you adapt your style and thinking to other
Joanne Lockwood: people's.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. No, I wholeheartedly agree. And I definitely had that line in the
Amanda Rosazza: sand moment myself and just kind of gone, oh, wait, I can get much better outcomes
Amanda Rosazza: and I feel better and they feel better and everybody wins when we're conscious and
Amanda Rosazza: proactive and start with that in mind. It's such a powerful change in
Amanda Rosazza: mindset and behaviour. Absolutely agree.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And the other challenge is that we're
Joanne Lockwood: so. Well, of course we're going to think through our own lived experience, our own lens,
Joanne Lockwood: and there's a huge cognitive load to put yourself to one
Joanne Lockwood: side and factor in all of the other people in the
Joanne Lockwood: room. And having to time slice your communication style,
Joanne Lockwood: so much easier. Just be you and talk about you. And so you've got to try and retrain the
Joanne Lockwood: plasticity of your brain to think in a different way, haven't
Joanne Lockwood: you?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely true. And you're 100%
Amanda Rosazza: right. The first, you know, especially if you're interacting with a lot of different people
Amanda Rosazza: who show up in a lot of different ways, totally drains the
Amanda Rosazza: battery. Right. Because we're having to reach into these different. You know, the
Amanda Rosazza: beauty of it is it's like a muscle. The more you work it, the stronger it becomes and the
Amanda Rosazza: easier it becomes to be more, I guess, elastic and sort of even if you
Amanda Rosazza: haven't interacted with someone before, read the room and go, okay, I can tell what
Amanda Rosazza: this person needs to set them up for success so that we can have a great interaction and this project
Amanda Rosazza: succeeds or the podcast succeeds or whatever it happens to
Amanda Rosazza: be.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I was definitely more extrovert
Joanne Lockwood: leaning before I crossed this line in the
Joanne Lockwood: sand. I think now I'm very much more introvert leaning because
Joanne Lockwood: being in high density environments with lots of people, it is emotionally
Joanne Lockwood: draining having to really absorb each
Joanne Lockwood: individual. Whereas an extrovert, I probably didn't care so
Joanne Lockwood: much.
Amanda Rosazza: That's a really good point and I would agree with that because I, I would
Amanda Rosazza: definitely say the same of myself. Just, yeah, the,
Amanda Rosazza: the more, just when you're in those environments, when there's more people
Amanda Rosazza: now, like a couple of weeks ago we did a three day off site with a client
Amanda Rosazza: room full of sort of 20 people. First day was planning, second two days were their
Amanda Rosazza: cultural embedment programme. Awesome
Amanda Rosazza: programme. We do. So we do the two days where I'm co
Amanda Rosazza: facilitating and we do this thing called the Special Objects dinner, where someone
Amanda Rosazza: brings something that's really special to them and, you know, it tells the
Amanda Rosazza: storey and it can get quite emotional. But it's a great way for the team to get to know each other
Amanda Rosazza: in sort of a safe environment because they've spent the first day
Amanda Rosazza: together. By the end of that, I'd say 10 years ago
Amanda Rosazza: I would have been totally fine, but now I'm. I'm like, I can't talk to
Amanda Rosazza: him. Totally done by the end of that
Amanda Rosazza: dinner. Because you're showing up in a way that gets the best result for
Amanda Rosazza: everybody else in the room, not just you. So, yeah,
Amanda Rosazza: it's. I would absolutely agree with that
Amanda Rosazza: completely.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe without realising, I've maybe just redefined introversion and extroversion just
Joanne Lockwood: by.
Amanda Rosazza: I think so.
Joanne Lockwood: Yep. The amount I care about absorbing that
Joanne Lockwood: energy. Whereas before I had a safety valve and I didn't. Yeah, maybe that's
Joanne Lockwood: it.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's it. And you just kind of just firing off and you're either with me or against
Amanda Rosazza: me. Let's. Let's go. Whereas. Yeah, that's
Amanda Rosazza: it. No. Yes. We have done great work so
Amanda Rosazza: far. Look at us.
Joanne Lockwood: We have. I mean, I can feel the podcast has achieved its mission
Joanne Lockwood: already. It's fantastic.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly. Excellent work, team.
Joanne Lockwood: So we talked in the green room about, you know, the people
Joanne Lockwood: who like the rigid structure and people
Joanne Lockwood: who. Who like the fuzzy edges and people who just. Like an open
Joanne Lockwood: field.
Amanda Rosazza: Right.
Joanne Lockwood: It's. It's from an organisational point of view, when you're talking about
Joanne Lockwood: an organisation that has to maybe is looking to be sold or wants good structure or investment or whatever, things
Joanne Lockwood: like that, you have to have rigid. Well, rigid policies and structure, don't
Joanne Lockwood: you?
Amanda Rosazza: You do, yeah. So. So something that. Where. So if we're looking at sort
Amanda Rosazza: of your standard operating procedures. So policies are one thing,
Amanda Rosazza: right? They're. They're pretty fixed and they make sure that we're compliant and legal and
Amanda Rosazza: all of those things. But if we look at the procedures. So how do we create wins for
Amanda Rosazza: our leadership team, for our team and our clients, our
Amanda Rosazza: guests, our customers, whoever it might be. Being able to give people
Amanda Rosazza: guardrails as opposed to rigid standard operating procedures is
Amanda Rosazza: something that's really powerful. And we talk about SOPs or standard operating procedures for the real
Amanda Rosazza: world. So how do we set up everybody that's going to read this
Amanda Rosazza: procedure to win Making sure that it's not just written by one type of human
Amanda Rosazza: for a hypothetical situation. We actually sit down with the different players in the
Amanda Rosazza: organisation and understand how they get things done and how people who are
Amanda Rosazza: winning get things done so that they get that everyone's having a great
Amanda Rosazza: experience. So. And a lot of that is understanding the different
Amanda Rosazza: personalities and the different approaches to work so that people, you know, I always say this, you know,
Amanda Rosazza: we want people to be able to do their best work, so we give them the tools and they want to
Amanda Rosazza: do their best work because we've set them up to win and play to their strengths,
Amanda Rosazza: essentially.
Joanne Lockwood: I've worked in environments where you can clearly see that people operating
Joanne Lockwood: at different speeds with different core values and rule sets,
Joanne Lockwood: there are. There are certain group of people who almost like pulling you back with chains going,
Joanne Lockwood: whoa, slow down. We just think about this more carefully when you do this. Other people go, well, we just got to run for the finish
Joanne Lockwood: line. We've got to go and do this. You know what people in the middle go, we need a process for this, we need a process for
Joanne Lockwood: that. What we're going to have. It's a real nightmare in a business where you've got all these competing things and everyone's getting
Joanne Lockwood: frustrated. This person's not playing by the rules, this person's got too many
Joanne Lockwood: rules. This person won't do anything. I can't make a decision.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes, it's real. It's real. It is a
Amanda Rosazza: nightmare. It's. It comes. Becomes quite chaotic. So
Amanda Rosazza: as much as we give position it. So we give our rule followers what they're
Amanda Rosazza: craving. So we give them. Here's the standard operating
Amanda Rosazza: procedure. Those that want a little bit more fluidity,
Amanda Rosazza: but we still need you to colour inside the lines to get this result and
Amanda Rosazza: helping them have guardrails so that they can still be their best selves within
Amanda Rosazza: the guardrails and really driving home, ultimately show
Amanda Rosazza: up as best. However you do your best work. I need the result to look like
Amanda Rosazza: this. As long as you give me this result, we're good. And that's a big part of how we
Amanda Rosazza: write procedures and embed them in
Amanda Rosazza: organisations. There's often more than, you know, multiple ways to
Amanda Rosazza: get things done. Ultimately, as long as the result is the gold standard
Amanda Rosazza: that goes out to the client or the guests or the customer, then we're good,
Amanda Rosazza: really.
Joanne Lockwood: So the other sort of person often described maybe is the gifted jerk,
Joanne Lockwood: the person who is too big to fail. Arrogant top
Joanne Lockwood: salesperson. I'm untouchable and I always think well, actually, that's the person
Joanne Lockwood: you need to fire first because they're not helping the organisation, they're creating toxic environment
Joanne Lockwood: or something. So how can you encourage this, the team player from somebody who's
Joanne Lockwood: clearly a loner?
Amanda Rosazza: Look, that is a tough one. To your point, I
Amanda Rosazza: would. So if I was going into that organisation, I'd put them in a
Amanda Rosazza: development programme and just see if we're coachable,
Amanda Rosazza: essentially. Or am I here to ruffle
Amanda Rosazza: feathers? And we've been in organisations where both have
Amanda Rosazza: been. The case had great results when they just needed a little bit of
Amanda Rosazza: guidance or often it's helping the others leverage them, if that makes
Amanda Rosazza: sense. So if there's something that they are genuinely really good at, not
Amanda Rosazza: to play into their ego also, just leverage what they're good
Amanda Rosazza: at. So if they are a gun sales person, okay, let's leverage
Amanda Rosazza: it. Little boost to their ego. And we all win because we're learning
Amanda Rosazza: something. Also, we tend to hold onto bad hires or people that have
Amanda Rosazza: overstayed their welcome. So we have had situations where we've,
Amanda Rosazza: We've. We've had to, you know, make those tough decisions because they're
Amanda Rosazza: not meeting the requirements of their position as a, shall we say, a side
Amanda Rosazza: effect of that behaviour. So it depends is the short
Amanda Rosazza: answer.
Joanne Lockwood: I was in exactly that position where this is going back into the
Joanne Lockwood: mid-90s. I was working for a large bank. And I remember our HR business
Joanne Lockwood: partner, whatever they were called at the time, came to us and said, so and so's probation is up at the
Joanne Lockwood: end of the week. Do you want to keep them? It was like what we
Joanne Lockwood: were. We were on the cusp of. This person wasn't really. They were kind of
Joanne Lockwood: okay. Not okay, kind of. And they sort of said, look, we got three
Joanne Lockwood: days. And then we're stuck with them in the nicest possible
Joanne Lockwood: way. You know, we're committed.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: For a while.
Amanda Rosazza: We're committed. 100.
Joanne Lockwood: We're committed. And I remember my, My manager and I, we sat there and we looked at each other and
Joanne Lockwood: went, wow. It seems very cold and calculated. This is a human being and they've got a
Joanne Lockwood: family.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Could we make this really cold decision to terminate them or are
Joanne Lockwood: they. They're all right, really. They're a nice person. And we fell down on
Joanne Lockwood: the. They're a nice person. And we decided that they were
Joanne Lockwood: nice. They were lovely. They were a bit ineffectual. They were. We always get frustrated with
Joanne Lockwood: them. And then six months later, we're all looking at each other going, we should have, we should have cut
Joanne Lockwood: them. Should have cut them.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's, you have to make that wrong decision once to learn the wrong decision,
Joanne Lockwood: don't you?
Amanda Rosazza: Well, exactly. And I've been there myself. I've, I've held on to team members to be
Amanda Rosazza: like, oh, they're so lovely, but they, you know, they're costing you money
Amanda Rosazza: ultimately. You know, as we're running a business, not a charity, we need to make money
Amanda Rosazza: or we won't be there for anybody to take home their paycheck
Amanda Rosazza: ultimately. So. And what I find interesting, you know, you're talking about that happening a
Amanda Rosazza: little while ago. It still happens. I it with. I don't think I've had a client I've ever
Amanda Rosazza: worked with that did not have that person that they held onto because they were
Amanda Rosazza: nice. And I think one thing we do roll out in organisations that solves
Amanda Rosazza: a lot of this is if you onboard people really
Amanda Rosazza: effectively. So that first week, that first month, that first 90 days,
Amanda Rosazza: and you really, I want to say, indoctrinate them into your culture
Amanda Rosazza: and help them understand what a great insert position name here
Amanda Rosazza: looks like, what an A player looks like. And you make that really clear from the start
Amanda Rosazza: and the speed at which we move and all of those
Amanda Rosazza: things. If you're clear on that, you do cultural fit in your interviewing
Amanda Rosazza: stage, you do rapid values alignment in the interview stage and you get clear on
Amanda Rosazza: that and then do a really good onboarding. Someone like that will generally
Amanda Rosazza: self select out before the end of their probation or you do have that opportunity to
Amanda Rosazza: coach them through that probation period, or don't wait till you get to the end if they're
Amanda Rosazza: not a good fit and you, you know, if you've got that robust onboarding and the data is telling you
Amanda Rosazza: they're not the right person. Okay, let's, let's set them up for success by letting them
Amanda Rosazza: go and, and let them go and win in the right environment for
Amanda Rosazza: them. Because if you're keeping them where they can't win or they can't do their best work,
Amanda Rosazza: then you know, it's not good for anybody really. So if you, I think if we change
Amanda Rosazza: the, I guess, framing a little bit, you're not doing them any favours
Amanda Rosazza: either.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's a fair enough. This role isn't for
Joanne Lockwood: you. There are other roles that are for you, but they're just not
Joanne Lockwood: here.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, it's beautifully said, Joanne. Beautifully
Amanda Rosazza: said. And I think that's what we encourage our leaders to
Amanda Rosazza: say. There's so much opportunity out there. This isn't the right
Amanda Rosazza: fit. There will be a right fit for you.
Joanne Lockwood: Could grab might actually be us and not you. It might be that the culture we've created
Joanne Lockwood: isn't for you. And actually you can find somewhere where
Joanne Lockwood: you. You create a sense of belonging somewhere else and
Joanne Lockwood: you. You thrive.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think there's this, or at least I notice it
Amanda Rosazza: here. There's this underlying assumption that anyone who has the right experience or the
Amanda Rosazza: right qualifications or even the right drive can slot into any role in any
Amanda Rosazza: organisation. It's just not. It's just not the case. So I
Amanda Rosazza: think educating people or helping them see that, and especially, you know,
Amanda Rosazza: I. I know a lot of recruiters are talking about that now. Just because a job is advertised doesn't
Amanda Rosazza: mean. And the money is right and the conditions are right, doesn't mean it's the right
Amanda Rosazza: fit.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that's what the onboarding and selection process should all be about, is to
Joanne Lockwood: make sure that you both come out of demo
Joanne Lockwood: mode.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that stuff in the review mode? Not. Or the not actual game footage sort of thing, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? You know, this is just a pretend environment.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: We're both BSing each other. You're trying to sell me the role and I'm trying to sell you
Joanne Lockwood: me.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's when we get to demo mode. Get the covers off quickly and go, well, what's the reality
Joanne Lockwood: here? Yes. It's a shit place to work and I don't like it or whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if we. More of that honesty up front
Amanda Rosazza: just sets everyone up to win. But, yeah, absolutely.
Amanda Rosazza: So. So the biggest favour you can do for yourselves out there, team,
Amanda Rosazza: be vigilant when you're doing your recruitment process, rapid values
Amanda Rosazza: alignment, cultural fit. And then if your onboarding is
Amanda Rosazza: robust and you have clear milestones where they should be performing week
Amanda Rosazza: one, month one, like first 90 days, then everyone's set up for win and you'll know
Amanda Rosazza: pretty quickly whether you have fit or not.
Joanne Lockwood: Let's dive into. You mentioned culture fit a couple of times, and that's a very subjective thing, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? And it's, you know, we've got to be careful here. So what is culture fit done well
Joanne Lockwood: and when is culture fit done badly? Let's talk about the difference of
Joanne Lockwood: those.
Amanda Rosazza: So I always look at it from the perspective of you've got your vision, your
Amanda Rosazza: mission, your values. If someone can get excited about those, it's generally
Amanda Rosazza: a good culture fit. If they're excited about the why, the why we do things, then
Amanda Rosazza: they will find a way to make magic. And I'm a big Disney fan, so I always
Amanda Rosazza: refer back to this for, you know, their guest, to their
Amanda Rosazza: customer, their client, whoever it might be. Whereas I think
Amanda Rosazza: it's too bad at
Joanne Lockwood: this mode, isn't it, that's they're passionate about the mission and the
Joanne Lockwood: passion.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's it. Whereas if they're not and they're just kind of dialling it
Amanda Rosazza: in, I think it's a little bit harder for them to do their best
Amanda Rosazza: work. I'm sure you've seen it yourself when someone's like, I'm just here to do a job, I'm
Amanda Rosazza: here to make sure the wheels don't fall off the
Amanda Rosazza: bus. Or versus. I'm really excited because, use the Disney
Amanda Rosazza: example, these guests, you know, this could be a once in a lifetime trip for them and I
Amanda Rosazza: want to make sure that they have the best possible time. There's sort
Amanda Rosazza: of. There's a difference in that energy and that to me is what a good cultural fit
Amanda Rosazza: in. And then there's layers above and beyond that and it's where the organisation
Amanda Rosazza: takes care of its people as well. So making sure that we're setting
Amanda Rosazza: everyone up for success, no matter what their background, like, you know, how they come
Amanda Rosazza: to us, making sure that we're setting everybody up to
Amanda Rosazza: win. So that's another layer of it because some organisations are doing it really like
Amanda Rosazza: amazing work, others are doing it really poorly. So
Amanda Rosazza: there's. It sort of works both ways, if that makes sense.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I did some work back in my old days when I was doing IT work and I ran
Joanne Lockwood: my own IT consultancy and I did some work for funeral
Joanne Lockwood: directors. And I remember the principal of the funeral director, when I was
Joanne Lockwood: installing his systems and he sat me down and sort of said, just to explain what we're
Joanne Lockwood: about, he says, we get one opportunity to
Joanne Lockwood: bury your mother. Yeah, we cannot get it right next time,
Joanne Lockwood: so we have to be on time, it has to work all these
Joanne Lockwood: things. We get one chance, so there can not be any
Joanne Lockwood: risk. And they're all geared around. There's an
Joanne Lockwood: absolute. It has to work once, first time, because there's never a second
Joanne Lockwood: time. And he explained that to me and that was just the
Joanne Lockwood: culture. There's also this ultimate respect. If that red light flashed, that meant a
Joanne Lockwood: family were visiting in one of the
Joanne Lockwood: rooms. Therefore, at that point, there, quiet, shush,
Joanne Lockwood: respect. Everyone sombered down a bit. The moment stopped
Joanne Lockwood: flashing. It was lively, bantery, jokey. But there was an
Joanne Lockwood: immediate. This is. There's a family going on here. That's their
Joanne Lockwood: time. And it was a real cultural thing and I was really impressed with
Joanne Lockwood: that. Everybody bought into that and I, because they briefed me as a
Joanne Lockwood: supplier when I was there on site, I bought into it as
Joanne Lockwood: well. I knew what was important to them. And I think that's what we're talking about here is
Joanne Lockwood: educating people into the way things work best
Joanne Lockwood: here.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. No. And that is a beautiful
Amanda Rosazza: example. Thank you. That's amazing. Yes. So how do
Amanda Rosazza: we do our best work? How do we show up in the best possible
Amanda Rosazza: way? And little things like that are what make all the
Amanda Rosazza: difference. That's some chills. I love that.
Joanne Lockwood: Because what we can't have though is culture fit as an excuse for
Joanne Lockwood: toxic culture or enforcing. Oh, we go to the pub, we do this and
Joanne Lockwood: we're bros. We high five each other and ring bells and jump up and down and get
Joanne Lockwood: excited. And you must be that bouncy person as
Joanne Lockwood: well. That's not culture fitness.
Amanda Rosazza: No, not at all. Not at all. So you. Okay, so let's draw a line there so we could
Amanda Rosazza: have a culture of we celebrate our win. It doesn't have to look like, you know,
Amanda Rosazza: what is it? The chest thing and the, the
Amanda Rosazza: bumping. The bells and. Yeah, the chest bump. Yeah,
Amanda Rosazza: yeah. It doesn't have to look like that. We can have a culture of celebrating
Amanda Rosazza: our wins. Absolutely. And as a leader, you can understand what that looks
Amanda Rosazza: like for each member of your team. Because celebration is something that
Amanda Rosazza: people are so ignorant of and it still astounds
Amanda Rosazza: me. To your point, they think that we're all just going to have a party in the
Amanda Rosazza: lunchroom or we're all going to ring the bell. But when you actually check in
Amanda Rosazza: with each member of your team, they like to celebrate individual wins
Amanda Rosazza: differently. They like to celebrate group wins
Amanda Rosazza: differently. So get everyone together and understand how they want to
Amanda Rosazza: celebrate. Let them dictate what the celebration looks
Amanda Rosazza: like. Because when they've decided what it looks like, they've got more buy
Amanda Rosazza: in and they actually feel celebrated. Not like this is the most horrific
Amanda Rosazza: thing ever. Can I please just exit stage left at this
Amanda Rosazza: point? So, yeah, yeah, that's a great
Amanda Rosazza: example.
Joanne Lockwood: Overly recognised.
Amanda Rosazza: That's it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Some people just.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: They don't resonate with that praise, do they?
Amanda Rosazza: Percent so when you know when you're bringing in a new team member or
Amanda Rosazza: even if a team member has left or you're forming a new team, it's about having
Amanda Rosazza: those conversations and going, okay, These are our values and part of
Amanda Rosazza: what we do is we celebrate the wins. How are we going to do that as a
Amanda Rosazza: team? What matters to each of you? And then deciding as a team,
Amanda Rosazza: that's. That's really powerful.
Joanne Lockwood: Going back into my old banking days in the 90s, I remember I had this
Joanne Lockwood: person working for me and I think we had a crisis going
Joanne Lockwood: on. There was something flying around and this one person was all over the
Joanne Lockwood: place. He was staying late, he was doing this. He was
Joanne Lockwood: everywhere. He was helping people and helping us avert this
Joanne Lockwood: crisis. And he was an unsung hero. And I remember
Joanne Lockwood: sending. I remember to this day, I sent him an email on Lotus
Joanne Lockwood: Notes. Going way back into the 90s, then.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Just saying thank you for being such a helpful
Joanne Lockwood: bastard. I love it. That's what I said. Just that one phrase. And he came up to me the next day and
Joanne Lockwood: he sort of said, that is the most relevant
Joanne Lockwood: praise. You know, that is the best thank you I've ever had in my
Joanne Lockwood: life. Because I was speaking his language. That was a kind of a relationship we
Joanne Lockwood: had.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: It wasn't fluffy, it wasn't performative. It was
Joanne Lockwood: sincere. From here, the way I would have spoken to him face to face. And he went, that
Joanne Lockwood: meant so much to me. Thank you. Thank you for recognising me in that
Joanne Lockwood: way. I didn't think you'd noticed.
Amanda Rosazza: That's awesome.
Joanne Lockwood: That's where praise and reward really resonate, when you figure out what that
Joanne Lockwood: thing is, isn't it?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Yeah. And exactly what you
Amanda Rosazza: said. Speaking their language. Right. And it matters so much more because you've taken
Amanda Rosazza: that time to understand them as a person and acknowledge
Amanda Rosazza: them. It's. It's.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Rosazza: That's where the magic is.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We don't always want the parking spot at the front of the building with employee of the Month on it, do
Joanne Lockwood: we?
Amanda Rosazza: That's it. And some people are not motivated by money. You can give them a pay rise
Amanda Rosazza: and. Okay, cool. I want you to tell me I did a good
Amanda Rosazza: job.
Joanne Lockwood: Right.
Amanda Rosazza: Everyone's motivated by different things. So understanding what drives your people is
Amanda Rosazza: insane.
Joanne Lockwood: The other realisation I had a little while ago is. I think it was. I was listening to an
Joanne Lockwood: audiobook. Utopia for Realists or Humankind? Which one of the two by Rutger
Joanne Lockwood: Bregman. One of the points he made, amongst many others, is that
Joanne Lockwood: people don't show up in the morning to do a bad job. Nobody believes
Joanne Lockwood: they are the dick. Nobody believes that they are the problem. Everybody believes that they are being Their best
Joanne Lockwood: self.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: So if they're not to you, where's the gap in
Joanne Lockwood: perception? Why are they not seeing what you see and why are you not seeing what they
Joanne Lockwood: see? And that's often a communication barrier.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Could not agree more. And people, generally speaking are poor
Amanda Rosazza: communicators. They're even worse in a corporate environment because we haven't given them the
Amanda Rosazza: tools that they need to communicate. So one of the big things that we
Amanda Rosazza: advocate for is as a bare minimum helping people understand
Amanda Rosazza: basic communication. But moreover, how do we have those more challenging conversations
Amanda Rosazza: if there is, if there is a gap? If I think I'm doing a great job, just
Amanda Rosazza: assuming because I get a high five occasionally from one of the other sales team,
Amanda Rosazza: how does Joanne then come to me and say, well actually Amanda, there's a couple
Amanda Rosazza: of opportunities here that we need to work on. So
Amanda Rosazza: teaching people how to have those conversations, how to give feedback where we're often not
Amanda Rosazza: empowering leaders or you know, even sort of future leaders
Amanda Rosazza: to be able to have those conversations with their
Amanda Rosazza: teammates. So it's, yeah, just a neglected area and a massive
Amanda Rosazza: opportunity in so many organisations.
Joanne Lockwood: And challenging conversations are challenging, aren't they? Yes, it's
Joanne Lockwood: obviously more, it's an obvious statement but we have millions of conversations that aren't challenging so we don't even
Joanne Lockwood: think about them. But the challenging ones are the ones we, we get anxiety, we're worried about, we sometimes be
Joanne Lockwood: ill prepare, we shoot from the hip, we go off half cocked and we're not prepared for
Joanne Lockwood: this eruption of emotion that confronts us from
Joanne Lockwood: them.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly, exactly. And that said, with a few tools in your back pocket, you'll over
Amanda Rosazza: like you'll still feel terrified the first time you do it and that's okay, feel it
Amanda Rosazza: and do it anyway and then you'll build that muscle like we were talking about
Amanda Rosazza: earlier. But we just, we haven't given people the
Amanda Rosazza: tools. So frameworks are so powerful and you can bake that into this is how we have
Amanda Rosazza: those challenging conversations. You can give everybody in the organisation a
Amanda Rosazza: framework, teach them how to utilise it. Please don't role
Amanda Rosazza: play. Everyone hates role plays, but please
Amanda Rosazza: don't. But show them how, how it can be effective, especially like
Amanda Rosazza: as. And if you want other people to use the tool in the organisation, use it as the
Amanda Rosazza: leader. Be set the standard, set the example. And another thing not to go off on a
Amanda Rosazza: tangent, also leaders please ask for feedback. That's another way that you can
Amanda Rosazza: unlock what's going on in your team. So so many leaders are prepared to give
Amanda Rosazza: feedback. And there's a lot out there that are not yet asking for feedback from
Amanda Rosazza: their team. So things are simple. To avoid things escalating into a difficult
Amanda Rosazza: conversation, it could be, Joanne, how can I better set you up for success next
Amanda Rosazza: time we tackle a project like this? Asking for feedback on how you can serve your
Amanda Rosazza: people is something that will be a game changer for you as
Amanda Rosazza: well.
Joanne Lockwood: And starting the conversation off by listening. Because often you sit down in these
Joanne Lockwood: challenging conversations, the first thing you want to do is, I want to tell you that you're
Joanne Lockwood: wrong. Which is never a good foundation.
Amanda Rosazza: Nope.
Joanne Lockwood: A good leader would probably say, how are you doing? What's going
Joanne Lockwood: on? Tell me about how your work is at the moment. What's going well, Any areas you think we could work
Joanne Lockwood: on together to improve. And if they've got any emotional intelligence at all, they
Joanne Lockwood: will know what's going wrong in their world. You just need to allow them to help you
Joanne Lockwood: unlock that. And then you can coach them on it, can't you?
Amanda Rosazza: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. If you go in straight for the throat, nobody wins
Amanda Rosazza: there. But having that structure that you just explained to the team, it's super
Amanda Rosazza: powerful. It comes down to curiosity, right? Instead of us having our bias and
Amanda Rosazza: our judgement and all these assumptions, often we'll go into those difficult conversations
Amanda Rosazza: believing we know what's actually going on. But if we approach it with curiosity and say,
Amanda Rosazza: hey, Joanne, tell me what's happening? What's your workload? Like, you know, start the conversation
Amanda Rosazza: there and like you say, they will know if something needs to be brought
Amanda Rosazza: up. And they will. They will tell you exactly what's going on and you can workshop
Amanda Rosazza: it.
Joanne Lockwood: Suddenly, someone turning up late every day, 10 minutes late every day, but they've been
Joanne Lockwood: reliable. It's like, what's going on? Oh, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: Babysitter. Or this. Or they've changed the bus
Joanne Lockwood: timetable. That's the earliest bus I can get. I had to
Joanne Lockwood: run. Or my car's broken down. Exactly. Sometimes you do a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: fact-finding. Oh, right. Okay. The only bus you can get is that
Joanne Lockwood: one. Or you have to leave the night before. Okay, so can we restructure your
Joanne Lockwood: day?
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: You're gonna make it. Make it up at lunchtime or you. You just shift your
Joanne Lockwood: window. Fine. There's no issue. It's just you. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: but they're too scared to tell you because they didn't know how you'd
Joanne Lockwood: react.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Whereas if you just go in curious
Amanda Rosazza: and ask what's happening? Instead of why have you been late for the last six days out of
Amanda Rosazza: seven or whatever it is? You know, it's. Yeah, they will feel that support
Amanda Rosazza: and, you know, then you move into solutions mode. Right, okay, well, what do we do with
Amanda Rosazza: that? What's. Let's find a way to make this work for both of
Amanda Rosazza: us.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but managers could be scared as well in these conversations. I mean, I was talking to somebody who was
Joanne Lockwood: in a situation where this person wasn't performing and they were scared to
Joanne Lockwood: approach them because the person they was having trouble with was black and they were
Joanne Lockwood: white. And they were worried through their own biases, they may be perceived as being racist
Joanne Lockwood: by giving this person constructive feedback or addressing this performance
Joanne Lockwood: issue. And what happened was this performance issue never got resolved and
Joanne Lockwood: eventually they ended up terminating this person because they were beyond
Joanne Lockwood: recovery. Whereas if they have said something at day one, it wouldn't have been an
Joanne Lockwood: issue. So again, the managers have to realise that there are anxieties holding them
Joanne Lockwood: back. Their affinity bias, their in group bias versus the people who are out group,
Joanne Lockwood: how they have conversations that they need to unlock their own communication skills, don't
Joanne Lockwood: they?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, absolutely. And if you think of, you know, if we had have had that, that conversation
Amanda Rosazza: when we should have had it, we, we were doing that person a favour as
Amanda Rosazza: well. Like, it's not just when we avoid them, we're not helping our team, we're not
Amanda Rosazza: helping them to grow or to, you know, make that. It could have been such a,
Amanda Rosazza: at that point, it might have been such a slight change in behaviour, but then because we just let it
Amanda Rosazza: fester for. Want a better phrasing, it's like deviated and become
Amanda Rosazza: untenable. Like you say, yeah, you, you need to have those conversations
Amanda Rosazza: in order to serve your people and allow them to set them up for
Amanda Rosazza: success.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm a manager, a leader in a business at some hierarchy
Joanne Lockwood: within it. What are the trigger points that I should be aware of
Joanne Lockwood: that tell me that I need to either coach my team better, coach my people better, or even
Joanne Lockwood: coach who's above me better how to react to me. So what the kind of trigger points that spark
Joanne Lockwood: this. Hmm, I need to do something.
Amanda Rosazza: So it's generally, if you have
Amanda Rosazza: repeated. What's the right word, Joanne? So repeated deviation
Amanda Rosazza: from our norms, our standards, our, you know, position descriptions, all of those
Amanda Rosazza: things that are written in our playbook, if you like. If there's repeated deviations,
Amanda Rosazza: once it's, you know, okay, second time it's a coincidence, the
Amanda Rosazza: third time we've gotta pay attention
Joanne Lockwood: so to your point about behavioural issue, at that
Joanne Lockwood: point.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly, spot on. So at that point, I would suggest sitting down and having an
Amanda Rosazza: informal conversation with the team member and
Amanda Rosazza: just. Just exactly as we said. First step is to understand what's going
Amanda Rosazza: on. And if they're late, for example, and they don't have a good reason, okay, so
Amanda Rosazza: remind them gentle reminders of, you know, we have to start at
Amanda Rosazza: xyz, I need you here by this time. Remind them of our policies
Amanda Rosazza: and procedures, make that clear, make sure they have understanding, get them to repeat it back to you, all
Amanda Rosazza: those pretty standard things. Once you've done that, if we still see the same behaviour, that's when
Amanda Rosazza: we need to go into some more formal performance improvement plan, style
Amanda Rosazza: scenario. If we don't see improvement there, that's when we need to ask the question
Amanda Rosazza: if we're a good fit. So, yeah, is that
Amanda Rosazza: helpful? Is that kind of what you're looking for?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm just thinking. And then when you walk in day one,
Joanne Lockwood: what are the warning signs you look for? What are the first ways you would
Joanne Lockwood: intervene? Or I presume you start by listening a bit of thought
Joanne Lockwood: because. Just listening.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, just so I'll normally start by
Amanda Rosazza: just. Yeah, hanging out and just listening. What I'll ask
Amanda Rosazza: at different levels of the organisation, what's your bottleneck? What's your biggest
Amanda Rosazza: frustration? Treat it as therapy, Tell me, bring me your problems, bring me your
Amanda Rosazza: challenges. And then it becomes pretty obvious pretty
Amanda Rosazza: quickly where the challenges are. You will normally have
Amanda Rosazza: a couple of team members who are. Who need extra
Amanda Rosazza: support. And whether that's somewhat like, to our point earlier, whether it's someone we've
Amanda Rosazza: held onto for too long or whether it's someone that genuinely just hasn't had the guidance that they've
Amanda Rosazza: needed. And I've been in organisations where we've had both, we've had one or the
Amanda Rosazza: other. And there's always a way to move past
Amanda Rosazza: it. It's just we can't bury our heads in the
Amanda Rosazza: sand. We've just got to be intentional about it. And. Yeah, so the first step in the process is
Amanda Rosazza: literally just hanging out, talking to people. Look what's happening in a Slack thread
Amanda Rosazza: asking what's happening in your meetings? What do your meetings look
Amanda Rosazza: like? How would you. How would you rate your meetings? Let's show me your KPIs, your
Amanda Rosazza: OKRs. How are we performing? Are we. Are we all heading towards the same North
Amanda Rosazza: Star? It's crazy the amount of organisations that I walk into and different
Amanda Rosazza: departments, silos have different ideas of what North Star looks like
Amanda Rosazza: or the vision or the mission. Just doing those temperature cheques and having those
Amanda Rosazza: conversations is where we start. And then from there you can
Amanda Rosazza: sort of see where the opportunities are and what's, what's going to stack the deck in their favour the
Amanda Rosazza: most. What's going to move the needle forward the most?
Joanne Lockwood: Companies with lots of motivational posters all over the wall. Is that a warning sign or is that
Joanne Lockwood: a.
Amanda Rosazza: Okay, yes, if so, in those situations. So either the motivational posters or their
Amanda Rosazza: values are written on the wall. If I will always do this, if their values are written
Amanda Rosazza: on the wall and they're prominent, I will go and spot check
Amanda Rosazza: someone. I'll go into the kitchen and I'll
Joanne Lockwood: say, what are they?
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, Joanne, what are the values? 9 times out of 10 they can give me 1 out
Amanda Rosazza: of 5 or however many there are, and that's usually a pretty good
Amanda Rosazza: indicator. Then there'll be other organisations, they'll have them written on the wall, but it's
Amanda Rosazza: part of their common language. Completely different
Amanda Rosazza: vibe. Right. Completely different energy. So someone
Amanda Rosazza: might. What's an example? Let's say they're, they're working on a project, they're putting a
Amanda Rosazza: rack together, say, like for an IT
Amanda Rosazza: installation. And their value is, I don't know,
Joanne Lockwood: not perfection, but good enough is good enough.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, there you go. Let's say that was their value. So
Amanda Rosazza: they. Maybe we've got two technicians that are working together and they say good enough is good
Amanda Rosazza: enough. Are we there? What do we. Or what would, what would we need to do to get us
Amanda Rosazza: there? If that's part of their common language, that's, that's a different, different energy
Amanda Rosazza: to, you know, when they can't tell me what they are. So it's, it can be a warning
Amanda Rosazza: sign if the people not embodying what is written on the
Amanda Rosazza: wall. And then you have the organisations that can't tell me what their vision, mission
Amanda Rosazza: and values are because they haven't articulated them either at all or in such a
Amanda Rosazza: long time. And then, you know, you have the ones that have them in a drawer
Amanda Rosazza: somewhere and they have to go and dig it out and blow the dust off
Amanda Rosazza: it. So, yeah, there's a, there's a broad range of, of how that shows up,
Amanda Rosazza: but it is very interesting. Often if it is on the wall, they can't tell me what they are, even
Amanda Rosazza: though they're right there.
Joanne Lockwood: And that forms some of the basis of recruitment, recruit, marketing, employer, value proposition, all these kind of
Joanne Lockwood: buzzwords you hear talked about. You have to try and represent who you are because often
Joanne Lockwood: companies sell who they're not or who they aspire to be. And then that's when demo mode kicks
Joanne Lockwood: in. You know, you think, oh, this is the aspiration of the company. And you get in and go, everyone's really
Joanne Lockwood: miserable.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: The demo doesn't live up to the reality, does it?
Amanda Rosazza: That's right. And. And that is something I've. I've actually pulled a couple of clients up
Amanda Rosazza: on. It's like, okay, this is, this is how you're selling yourself and this is what I'
Amanda Rosazza: experiencing when I come into your office. There's a massive disconnect
Amanda Rosazza: there. So we either need to change how we're selling ourselves or we need to bridge
Amanda Rosazza: the gap in here.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, your staff surveys, your pulse surveys have
Joanne Lockwood: to. You have to overlay them with your expectations, hold them up to the light and
Joanne Lockwood: check and check. The holes are in the same place.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. Beautifully said. Absolutely.
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. You need to, need to get, get super clear on
Amanda Rosazza: that. If they are not in the same place, what are you going to do about
Amanda Rosazza: it? What is the solution? And move quickly and don't
Amanda Rosazza: ignore it because those little problems become big
Amanda Rosazza: problems.
Joanne Lockwood: I often say to clients that you should stand outside the front of your building,
Joanne Lockwood: metaphorically stand outside the front of your
Joanne Lockwood: building. And what do you see from the outside? What do you see as a person walking by, as a
Joanne Lockwood: consumer, as a potential employee? Sniff and smell. What do you feel
Joanne Lockwood: like? What do you smell like from the outside? And then step into the door and do the same and go,
Joanne Lockwood: where's the disconnect? Where am I? Where am I? What am I
Joanne Lockwood: missing? And is it C-suite smell one thing and the shop floor smell a different thing, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: because you've got, again, a disconnect in the organization as
Joanne Lockwood: well.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. So common. And a lot of that is
Amanda Rosazza: silos. Right. We have departments that are, aren't, you know, cross collaborating or
Amanda Rosazza: cross pollinating. That's, that's a whole other thing. But to your point, I have a client
Amanda Rosazza: and amazing client. They do premium consumer goods
Amanda Rosazza: or awesome company. You would not know it. Walking into their building is a hot
Amanda Rosazza: mess. And I'm like, team, this is your
Amanda Rosazza: brand. This is where you're positioning yourself. I walk into the office, it looks
Amanda Rosazza: like. I don't even know how to describe a hot mess is what I would describe it
Amanda Rosazza: as. But, you know, so, like, yeah, everything has to be connected, whether it's, you know,
Amanda Rosazza: our client experience has to be connected. To our team experience, to our leadership
Amanda Rosazza: experience. It has to all connect back to the vision, the mission, the values, why,
Amanda Rosazza: why we do what we do. And so often, as I'm sure you've seen it like you're describing,
Amanda Rosazza: there's these little just disconnects everywhere, everything come together
Joanne Lockwood: and that's where the magic happens, isn't it? Yeah. And I always talk about belongingness is the
Joanne Lockwood: intersection of all of these various elements and when you 100% and
Joanne Lockwood: everything else aligns in that perfect symmetry, that's belonging, that's where you really
Joanne Lockwood: resonate with everything that's going on, don't you?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. And what do you
Amanda Rosazza: think? I'm going to ask you a question and what do you think, what do you think
Amanda Rosazza: stops people from getting to that place of belonging to.
Joanne Lockwood: It's really hard to define. So ephemeral, I think is the word I'm looking
Joanne Lockwood: for. So nebulous and it means something different to different
Joanne Lockwood: people. All you can hope to do is create an environment where your culture fit
Joanne Lockwood: people for a better way of describing it, go, wow, this is for me and the
Joanne Lockwood: people. It isn't for go, it isn't for me. And you go, that's absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: fine. I'm not saying you should have a bias where you only have like minded people,
Joanne Lockwood: but you with the right environment. And I was. I always think about it as my
Joanne Lockwood: favourite coffee shop and I tell the story quite
Joanne Lockwood: often. I know what my favourite coffee shop is. Why is
Joanne Lockwood: that? It's the service at the counter. It's the bean, it's the cup size, it's the
Joanne Lockwood: flavour, the way they put the milk in, the little thing they put on top, the seats in
Joanne Lockwood: the window, the sofa. How I get reward points. There's so many things around this
Joanne Lockwood: coffee shop but I know it's out of choice of three coffee
Joanne Lockwood: shops. I will always go there. And if I end up going to the other one, I
Joanne Lockwood: go. It just feels it's not my place.
Amanda Rosazza: Not, it's not the same.
Joanne Lockwood: I was talking about the other one and it's. I always describe it that feeling from the sitcom, the Canadian
Joanne Lockwood: sitcom Cheers. The bar where everyone knows your name, all the people that go there,
Joanne Lockwood: it's their happy place, they know that they're going to do have a great
Joanne Lockwood: time. And I'm not saying work should be a playground, but work should
Joanne Lockwood: be. Should boost you, enrich you and give you something back and you
Joanne Lockwood: just know that it's your place, don't you?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Could not agree more. And I Think we in
Amanda Rosazza: wanting to create that environment, you have to be prepared to do it one
Amanda Rosazza: percent at a time. Because all of those things that you described about your favourite coffee shop, they didn't do that
Amanda Rosazza: overnight, they had to stack the deck over time. And so many, especially
Amanda Rosazza: founders, they want to create that now. I want that
Amanda Rosazza: now. I'm like, yes, I know, and I love that you're excited
Amanda Rosazza: also. That's going to take, that's a three year ramp
Amanda Rosazza: up. And here's how we get there. Don't let the fact that it takes time to get
Amanda Rosazza: there stop you from taking the steps to get there.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, there's a coffee shop at the same chain and inside
Joanne Lockwood: it's okay, it's fine. But outside, because it's on a high street, they've got tables
Joanne Lockwood: and chairs on the outside, on the pavement and that's where people
Joanne Lockwood: smoke. So people sit at these chairs, they'll smoke. They may have what
Joanne Lockwood: looks like an aggressive dog or something like this. And you walk out and think, I don't want
Joanne Lockwood: to walk through this hostile
Joanne Lockwood: view that I have six foot of space outside the
Joanne Lockwood: shop. It just feels hostile. So I go somewhere else. So whatever you're doing inside for your brand
Joanne Lockwood: and values, you can turn people off with that negative impression
Joanne Lockwood: when you first walk up. And I think that's, you really gotta stand outside your building
Joanne Lockwood: and look in sometimes. What do people see?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, yes, absolutely. And outside your building could be your website,
Amanda Rosazza: it could be how you're represented, you know, like on
Amanda Rosazza: other platforms, in other
Amanda Rosazza: environments. Think about the outside of your
Amanda Rosazza: building. Where do people first find, find out about
Amanda Rosazza: you? Where, where do they first explore what you're
Amanda Rosazza: about? Absolutely. So crucial, so crucial.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't remember the exact, the exact phrase, but it's about self awareness,
Joanne Lockwood: it's. What do you, what do people say about you when you're not in the
Joanne Lockwood: room?
Amanda Rosazza: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: And what do you want people to say about you when you're not in the
Joanne Lockwood: room? You, if you don't have an opinion on that, how can you influence how you show
Joanne Lockwood: up? If I want people to say, well, Joanne's amazing, she's
Joanne Lockwood: fantastic. When I'm not in the room, I have to be that person when
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not in that room. And when I'm in the room, and I think a business and organisation has to have,
Joanne Lockwood: how am I seen when I'm not in the room asking the question.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly. And you can't decide, you can't be not all in on
Amanda Rosazza: that. You have to decide and commit to what you're going to be
Amanda Rosazza: and always be that.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: I know, I mean, there's some major global banks and there's some in the uk,
Joanne Lockwood: obviously. And I know, because I know the leaders and the board, people like that, I know that
Joanne Lockwood: they have this belief that they want to be the best, they want to have the best customer service, they want to be the best
Joanne Lockwood: employer, they want to be on Glassdoor and all these kind of things and they want to be rah
Joanne Lockwood: rah. And everyone loves them and wants to stay there forever. That's what they really, really
Joanne Lockwood: want. But you have a conversation with an individual and their lived experience, their
Joanne Lockwood: employee experience is completely different. And that's this massive disconnect
Joanne Lockwood: in these layers of management where it just takes one supervisor, leader, point of
Joanne Lockwood: authority to mess it up. And then my customer experiences suffers because I've dealt with the person
Joanne Lockwood: that's having a bad day and that's not what the bank wanted, but it's what I got and
Joanne Lockwood: that's where it messes up. That one person makes a difference to who you
Joanne Lockwood: are.
Amanda Rosazza: Exactly, exactly. To your point, like the solution to that
Amanda Rosazza: isn't micromanaging our team, it's about having all of those things that we've already
Amanda Rosazza: spoken about in place. So that one of my friends says, so that you can
Amanda Rosazza: still do a great job on your worst day.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes.
Amanda Rosazza: So that's. Yeah. So if you, if you have all of those things set up correctly on
Amanda Rosazza: your worst day, you can still do a pretty good job.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I always say to people, you have permission to have a bad day
Joanne Lockwood: and you can, you can phone me up and say, I'm having a bad day,
Joanne Lockwood: I need to go home. And you go, if you're having a bad day, please do go home
Joanne Lockwood: and come back tomorrow when you're better. And rather than sit there and
Joanne Lockwood: be bad with everybody else and feel worse, everyone should be allowed to
Joanne Lockwood: take a bad day and be honest about
Joanne Lockwood: it.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Yeah, I know, I agree, I agree. And I think we have,
Amanda Rosazza: in Australia, there's definitely, we joke about it, we call it the sickie, like the, the
Amanda Rosazza: sick day, but everyone jokes about like, if you're having a rough day, you know, you
Amanda Rosazza: want to take a mental health day, just, just take, take one of your sick days and, and, and everybody's
Amanda Rosazza: better off when you just take that moment to step
Amanda Rosazza: away. So, yeah, definitely, definitely agree.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I've been self employed or a principal in organisations
Joanne Lockwood: for the last 30 odd years, so I have, I have the privilege of being able to do that whenever I
Joanne Lockwood: want. Want. But I.
Amanda Rosazza: Right.
Joanne Lockwood: I wake up in the morning, I think today's not a day where I could be
Joanne Lockwood: productive. Let's either sit on the sofa, let's go for a walk, take the puppy out, do
Joanne Lockwood: something else. Today is not my day.
Amanda Rosazza: And absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, we shouldn't restrict that privilege to just a few.
Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, I agree.
Joanne Lockwood: And people. Could people there provide you support? You can support that. So you've had a bad day, come back
Joanne Lockwood: tomorrow. Can I help? What was the bad day? What can we do? Can we. Can we help you in the
Joanne Lockwood: future? If you need some more help, let us know. If it ever gets too much, come and talk to
Joanne Lockwood: me. We can deal with this. Not a problem, don't worry. That really opens up the conversation then, doesn't,
Joanne Lockwood: does it?
Amanda Rosazza: Does. And you know you want to. We always talk about that
Amanda Rosazza: extreme empathy. So, you know, sitting down with them and just listening, having that
Amanda Rosazza: curiosity, no judgement, just saying. I think Brene Brown says,
Amanda Rosazza: I'm not sure what to say, but I'm glad you told me. That sort of mentality, like, I'm
Amanda Rosazza: not.
Joanne Lockwood: Not.
Amanda Rosazza: I'm not judging you. And when they're ready, let's move into solutions
Amanda Rosazza: mode. How can we work together and move past this when we're ready to move past
Amanda Rosazza: it, depending on, you know, what is going on and where they're
Amanda Rosazza: at. So, yeah, definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're a manager or a supervisor or leader, listening to this episode,
Joanne Lockwood: and this is news to you, you must think, wow, this is a lot of effort, a lot of cognitive brain power
Joanne Lockwood: here to navigate this, but we touched on the plasticity and the learned
Joanne Lockwood: behaviour. You can compress all of this into your new standard operation, process
Joanne Lockwood: yourself, can't you?
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, absolutely. And the important thing is, like I said earlier,
Amanda Rosazza: just 1% each time. Choose one thing to focus on that week,
Amanda Rosazza: implement it, get that right and then bring the next thing in in and the next
Amanda Rosazza: thing in. If you try to do it all at once, you'll decide it's all too hard and you won't do
Amanda Rosazza: anything. But if you just pick one thing to focus on that we've spoken
Amanda Rosazza: about. Game changer. And then you can add the next layer and the next layer and in
Amanda Rosazza: 12 months from now, you'll. You'll be a completely different
Amanda Rosazza: leader.
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda, this has been an absolutely fantastic conversation. How can people get hold of
Joanne Lockwood: you?
Amanda Rosazza: Yes. So you can. Best way to find me is on LinkedIn. Honestly, come and check out my
Amanda Rosazza: LinkedIn profile. I'm pretty confident I'm the only Amanda
Amanda Rosazza: Rosata. So. So come and connect with me on LinkedIn and we can continue the
Amanda Rosazza: conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: That's Rosa is R O Z. Sorry, R O S A T Z Z A
Joanne Lockwood: Rosa O S. R O, S
Joanne Lockwood: A. Oh, sorry, there's no T in
Joanne Lockwood: it. I put that in there because I couldn't remember how to pronounce your name. So the T is my
Joanne Lockwood: typo.
Amanda Rosazza: No, no, no, no, no. It was to empower us to win at the
Amanda Rosazza: start. See, it's all about. It's all about those hacks. Yeah,
Amanda Rosazza: absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: Let me take that out. So it's pronounced with the Italian way as an
Joanne Lockwood: Amanda. It is not the traditional way. Absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: amazing.
Amanda Rosazza: Nailed it.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you so much. I've loved talking to you and catch up with you
Joanne Lockwood: soon.
Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart
Joanne Lockwood: to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a
Joanne Lockwood: chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of
Joanne Lockwood: our ever growing community driving real
Joanne Lockwood: change. Share this journey with friends, family and
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Joanne Lockwood: matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to
Joanne Lockwood: share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood
Joanne Lockwood: lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice
Joanne Lockwood: heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a
Joanne Lockwood: promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge,
Joanne Lockwood: inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next
Joanne Lockwood: bite.