WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:04.944 Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for 2 00:00:04.944 --> 00:00:07.492 bold conversations that spark 3 00:00:07.492 --> 00:00:12.294 change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of 4 00:00:12.294 --> 00:00:16.900 exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and 5 00:00:16.900 --> 00:00:21.898 societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes 6 00:00:21.898 --> 00:00:26.798 to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:26.798 --> 00:00:31.698 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:31.698 --> 00:00:36.402 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:36.402 --> 00:00:41.204 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your 10 00:00:41.204 --> 00:00:45.614 morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:45.614 --> 00:00:48.652 connect, reflect and inspire action 12 00:00:48.652 --> 00:00:53.552 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.552 --> 00:00:58.355 too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to 14 00:00:58.355 --> 00:01:01.491 share your insights or to join me on the 15 00:01:01.491 --> 00:01:04.725 show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 16 00:01:04.725 --> 00:01:09.723 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 17 00:01:09.723 --> 00:01:14.427 Bites. And today is episode 220 with the title Empowering 18 00:01:14.427 --> 00:01:19.425 Women to Rise. And I have the absolute honour and Privilege to 19 00:01:19.425 --> 00:01:24.031 welcome Dr. Lois Frankel. Lois is a best selling author, 20 00:01:24.031 --> 00:01:27.461 executive coach and women's empowerment 21 00:01:27.461 --> 00:01:32.459 advocate. She helps women overcome limiting behaviours and 22 00:01:32.459 --> 00:01:36.673 succeed in business without compromising who they 23 00:01:36.673 --> 00:01:41.475 are. When I asked Lois to describe her superpower, she said 24 00:01:41.475 --> 00:01:46.375 that it is her belief that to those whom much is given, much is 25 00:01:46.375 --> 00:01:51.177 expected and her commitment to teaching other women how to 26 00:01:51.177 --> 00:01:54.313 get what they want and deserve. Hello, 27 00:01:54.313 --> 00:01:56.469 Lois. Welcome to the show. 28 00:01:56.900 --> 00:01:59.780 Joanne, thank you so much for inviting me to join you. 29 00:01:59.780 --> 00:02:04.260 It's a pleasure. And we've already had a good little chat before we pressed the record button and 30 00:02:04.820 --> 00:02:07.740 you said you're in the U.S. is that 31 00:02:07.740 --> 00:02:08.020 right? 32 00:02:08.180 --> 00:02:13.060 I am. I'm in California. I just recently moved from the Los Angeles area 33 00:02:13.300 --> 00:02:18.240 down towards the beach area. I'm in a little town called Dana Point Point, which is a 34 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:23.080 couple of towns north of Oceanside. And just most people know Laguna 35 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:28.040 beach, it's the next town south of Laguna beach, so in California, though originally 36 00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:28.720 from New York. 37 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.560 So you've moved around a bit, east to west. 38 00:02:31.040 --> 00:02:32.400 Yes, absolutely. 39 00:02:33.040 --> 00:02:35.720 You hopped over the middle, did you? You didn't get stuck in the 40 00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:36.320 mountains? 41 00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:39.840 I didn't get stuck in the middle. I shouldn't say stuck, because 42 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.440 it's. The middle is beautiful. 43 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:42.630 Beautiful, yeah. 44 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:47.590 But having grown up in New York, on Long island, when I was offered jobs in the middle of 45 00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:50.310 the country, I always declined them because I felt 46 00:02:50.310 --> 00:02:52.990 landlocked. So I've only lived on 47 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:57.870 coasts. I lived in New York, on Long Island, I lived in Miami and then I came 48 00:02:57.870 --> 00:02:59.270 out here to Los Angeles. 49 00:03:00.310 --> 00:03:05.270 Yeah, I'm the same. I live not far from the coast. And if I go too far inland, I 50 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:10.230 mean, the UK is not a huge place by US standards, but yeah, if I get too far away from the water, 51 00:03:10.390 --> 00:03:13.710 I kind of feel that uneasiness of not knowing where the water 52 00:03:13.710 --> 00:03:14.070 is. 53 00:03:14.710 --> 00:03:18.910 Yeah, exactly. And it's not to say the middle. There's anything wrong with the middle, because there 54 00:03:18.910 --> 00:03:23.870 isn't. It just for me, feels a little claustrophobic, personally, never having lived in the 55 00:03:23.870 --> 00:03:24.310 middle. 56 00:03:24.870 --> 00:03:29.670 Yeah. And also you've got the contrast between the Hustle and bustle and 24 hour New 57 00:03:29.670 --> 00:03:34.470 York and that more spread out, la, California type environment 58 00:03:34.470 --> 00:03:39.200 as well. And I noticed that real contrast when I was in New York. You walk everywhere or you 59 00:03:39.200 --> 00:03:44.080 subway it or bus it everywhere. Everything's really kind of in a compact 60 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:48.680 area. But LA and San Francisco and even the whole of California is just more 61 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.200 sprawled, isn't it? You need a car and. 62 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.640 Yeah, it really is. They're like two different cultures. But you know, this country is so big, 63 00:03:56.640 --> 00:04:01.400 Joanne, that we have so many subcultures within our 64 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:06.160 United States. So. Yes. You know, New York has one totally different 65 00:04:06.160 --> 00:04:11.110 vibe. Los Angeles does. San Francisco does. You know, people who live in San Francisco don't want to live 66 00:04:11.110 --> 00:04:14.510 in Los Angeles. People who live in San Diego would never live in San 67 00:04:14.510 --> 00:04:19.430 Francisco. So, you know, we each have our preferences, I think, partly based on 68 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:21.510 how we grew up and what our values are. 69 00:04:22.870 --> 00:04:27.430 Yeah. Now, having been to San Francisco, LA and San Diego 70 00:04:27.830 --> 00:04:31.550 and New York and Miami, I get it. I get, I get the difference of 71 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:35.490 vibe. But you're right, US is such a big place. It's map it onto 72 00:04:35.490 --> 00:04:38.050 Europe. It's. It's several countries, isn't it? Easily. 73 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:40.490 Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 74 00:04:42.330 --> 00:04:42.650 Yeah. 75 00:04:42.650 --> 00:04:47.570 You can't paint all Americans with the same brush, really, because we're very 76 00:04:47.570 --> 00:04:49.210 different from place to place. 77 00:04:50.090 --> 00:04:54.983 Especially this, in this current climate, we can't, we certainly can't paint 78 00:04:54.983 --> 00:04:57.844 people with the same brush. Lots of different 79 00:04:57.844 --> 00:05:02.662 perspectives. So you were infamous or famous for penning a book some 20 years 80 00:05:02.662 --> 00:05:05.297 ago. Was it Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner 81 00:05:05.297 --> 00:05:10.266 Office? And I guess that sparked a whole career for you coming out of that book or 82 00:05:10.266 --> 00:05:12.590 enhanced the career you already had? 83 00:05:13.390 --> 00:05:13.790 Both. 84 00:05:14.030 --> 00:05:14.910 What got you into it? 85 00:05:15.070 --> 00:05:19.270 Yeah, I'd say both, because when it first came out, all 86 00:05:19.270 --> 00:05:22.430 the. All of a sudden I became an advocate for 87 00:05:22.430 --> 00:05:27.390 women. And I was always kind of under the radar as an advocate for 88 00:05:27.390 --> 00:05:32.360 women. But the fact is I was an executive coach, so I coached predominantly 89 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:37.320 men because I only worked in major corporations with people who 90 00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:41.520 were referred to me by the corporation. So who did they invest 91 00:05:41.520 --> 00:05:46.399 in? Men. So that was primarily who I was coaching at 92 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.440 the time. So when the book came out, all of a sudden everything 93 00:05:49.520 --> 00:05:54.480 shifted. And at first I resisted it because I thought, wow, I've spent, you know, a 94 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.640 lot of my career trying to build this coaching business for both men and women 95 00:05:59.320 --> 00:06:01.840 and a woman who does marketing and 96 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:05.040 branding. She said, lois, go with it, go with 97 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:09.840 it. Just be glad that you have this wave to take you along into 98 00:06:09.840 --> 00:06:13.480 this new area that is consistent with your values and your 99 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.640 beliefs. It's just not how you were making your living 100 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:19.600 previously. So did I answer that part of the 101 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:19.880 question? 102 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.200 Absolutely, absolutely. 103 00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:27.123 But when you asked me how to. So that's kind of how I got into this part of 104 00:06:27.123 --> 00:06:30.207 it. But. But there's something just before that, 105 00:06:30.207 --> 00:06:34.871 too. There's a backstory, and that is, you know, I mentioned during our pre 106 00:06:34.871 --> 00:06:39.684 conversation that I worked for arco, the oil company, for quite a few years in 107 00:06:39.684 --> 00:06:44.571 Human Resources. And while I was working there, I went to school at night to get 108 00:06:44.571 --> 00:06:49.381 my PhD in counselling psychology, because what I really wanted to do my whole 109 00:06:49.381 --> 00:06:54.268 life I dreamed of being a psychologist. So with ARCO paying for it, I got my PhD, 110 00:06:54.268 --> 00:06:59.158 and then I went to the Powers that Be and I said, you know, you paid all this money 111 00:06:59.158 --> 00:07:03.820 for my PhD, and now I. I'd like to be able to use it in the employee Assistance 112 00:07:03.820 --> 00:07:08.409 programme. And they said to me, you're doing fine where you are, just stay 113 00:07:08.409 --> 00:07:10.965 there. And I think that happens to a lot of 114 00:07:10.965 --> 00:07:15.700 women. What happens? As we get more education or degrees or certificates or 115 00:07:15.700 --> 00:07:19.461 just experience, people see us for who we are and what we were 116 00:07:19.461 --> 00:07:24.047 doing. And I was actually working in Equal Employment Opportunity at the 117 00:07:24.047 --> 00:07:29.011 time. I spent quite a few years in eeo, which now it's called dei, but back then we 118 00:07:29.011 --> 00:07:33.599 called it eeo, spent quite a few years there and, and realised, you know, I 119 00:07:33.599 --> 00:07:38.334 didn't. I didn't spend all this time, energy, going to school at night to be a 120 00:07:38.334 --> 00:07:43.295 psychologist, to just stay where I am. So I quit and I started a private practise 121 00:07:43.295 --> 00:07:48.104 of psychotherapy in downtown Los Angeles because I realised that I wanted to 122 00:07:48.104 --> 00:07:52.390 work with that particular population. I wanted to work with working 123 00:07:52.390 --> 00:07:57.354 people. Joanne I did it for about, I'd say about a year and a half, and the moment I 124 00:07:57.354 --> 00:08:02.317 wanted to jump across the couch and put my hands around my client's neck and say, 125 00:08:02.317 --> 00:08:05.326 how many times are we going to talk about the same 126 00:08:05.326 --> 00:08:08.333 thing? I realised I'm probably not cut out to be a 127 00:08:08.333 --> 00:08:12.093 therapist. And yet Again, that was all I wanted to do my whole 128 00:08:12.093 --> 00:08:16.981 life. So it was like, at this point, left a good job, got a PhD, you know, what am I 129 00:08:16.981 --> 00:08:21.717 going to do now? Well, as sometimes life happens to you in the way it should, a 130 00:08:21.717 --> 00:08:26.680 woman I had done some training for came to me and said, lois, would you be willing 131 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:31.568 to coach someone? Now, this was 1989. There were not a lot of executive coaches 132 00:08:31.568 --> 00:08:35.026 around at the time. There were hardly any, as a matter of 133 00:08:35.026 --> 00:08:39.012 fact. And I looked at her and I said, I don't know exactly what you 134 00:08:39.012 --> 00:08:43.826 want. And she said, oh, Lois, you've been a therapist, or you are a therapist, 135 00:08:43.826 --> 00:08:48.189 you've done training, you worked in human resources, you put them all 136 00:08:48.189 --> 00:08:52.626 together, you have a coach. This woman was always on the cutting edge of 137 00:08:52.626 --> 00:08:56.311 everything. And I said, sure, I'd love to coach someone for 138 00:08:56.311 --> 00:08:59.243 you. I figured it had to be better than what I was 139 00:08:59.243 --> 00:09:04.056 doing. And she sent this woman to me because, remember back then, you got sent 140 00:09:04.056 --> 00:09:08.719 for coaching because you were somebody who was too valuable to lose and too 141 00:09:08.719 --> 00:09:13.308 painful to keep. And she sent this woman to me. And all I knew was that no one 142 00:09:13.308 --> 00:09:17.971 wanted to work with her, that she was bristly and nobody wanted to work with 143 00:09:17.971 --> 00:09:22.935 her. She comes in, she sits down. Now, remember, there's no coaching models out 144 00:09:22.935 --> 00:09:27.295 there yet. So I used my very first coaching client to come up with my own 145 00:09:27.295 --> 00:09:32.108 model. And I looked at her and I said, you know, maybe you could tell me a little 146 00:09:32.108 --> 00:09:34.815 bit about what it was like growing up in your 147 00:09:34.815 --> 00:09:38.349 household. Because I was a therapist. What was I going to 148 00:09:38.349 --> 00:09:41.209 ask? And she, luckily for me, she went with the 149 00:09:41.209 --> 00:09:44.518 programme. And what she said was, I grew up in a German 150 00:09:44.518 --> 00:09:47.449 household. My parents taught me to always obey 151 00:09:47.449 --> 00:09:52.187 authority. Don't waste time, keep your nose clean, don't gossip, don't get 152 00:09:52.187 --> 00:09:56.849 involved in other people's business. You know, that Teutonic, that whole 153 00:09:56.849 --> 00:10:01.586 Teutonic attitude. And it was very clear to me why people didn't want to work 154 00:10:01.586 --> 00:10:05.497 with her, because she was doing all those things she learned in 155 00:10:05.497 --> 00:10:10.458 childhood. And Joanne, that became my coaching model, that became my coaching 156 00:10:10.458 --> 00:10:15.348 question. Tell me, what were the rules you learned in childhood that you had to 157 00:10:15.348 --> 00:10:17.830 obey in order to get love, attention and 158 00:10:17.830 --> 00:10:22.267 affection? In every household, there are rules and sometimes they're 159 00:10:22.267 --> 00:10:27.080 explicit, sometimes they're implicit. In this German household, they were 160 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.894 quite explicit. So what she was doing was over relying on the behaviours that 161 00:10:31.894 --> 00:10:36.407 she learned in childhood were appropriate, not realising they now were 162 00:10:36.407 --> 00:10:41.144 getting in her way. And that actually formed the basis of my very first book, 163 00:10:41.144 --> 00:10:45.808 which was called Stop Sabotaging Your Career. And it was for both women and 164 00:10:45.808 --> 00:10:50.696 men. And in that book, I really talked about the seven primary reasons why I saw 165 00:10:50.696 --> 00:10:54.230 people falter in their careers. And it was from these old 166 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:57.313 messages. Now, I want you to fast forward about 10 167 00:10:57.313 --> 00:11:01.975 years. Now, I've been in coaching for about 10 years, coaching both men and 168 00:11:01.975 --> 00:11:06.940 women, primarily men. But I was working with this one woman who was sent to me for 169 00:11:06.940 --> 00:11:10.850 coaching because she was a little bit on the aggressive side of 170 00:11:10.850 --> 00:11:14.684 assertive. We know what we call those, right? They're called 171 00:11:14.684 --> 00:11:19.345 bitches. So she was sent to me for coaching because people found her kind of 172 00:11:19.345 --> 00:11:24.234 bitchy. I worked with her for about two or three months and one day I went in for a 173 00:11:24.234 --> 00:11:29.046 coaching session and she said, before we get started, I just want to tell you I 174 00:11:29.046 --> 00:11:34.009 was invited to sit on the executive committee of my company and I went to give her 175 00:11:34.009 --> 00:11:38.899 a high five and she stopped me and I said, what? And she said, you know, I've been 176 00:11:38.899 --> 00:11:41.605 to those meetings, Lois, they're a waste of 177 00:11:41.605 --> 00:11:45.967 time. And what popped out of my mouth was, honey, you got to quit being a 178 00:11:45.967 --> 00:11:50.630 girl. Because what I realised was that she was acting like she was taught in 179 00:11:50.630 --> 00:11:55.442 childhood that you have to be twice as good. You have to work twice as hard to be 180 00:11:55.442 --> 00:11:59.502 considered half as good. Right? You know, you're never as good as 181 00:11:59.502 --> 00:12:03.940 men. You have to just work, work, work, work, work, and maybe you'll get 182 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:08.753 recognised. When that popped out of my mouth, you know, honey, you gotta quit 183 00:12:08.753 --> 00:12:13.115 being a girl. All the mistakes I saw women make because of how they were 184 00:12:13.115 --> 00:12:17.852 socialised. I mean, up till now I was talking about family messages for both 185 00:12:17.852 --> 00:12:22.815 girls, but now I started thinking, wait a minute, but girls get unique messages 186 00:12:22.815 --> 00:12:27.776 in addition to the family messages. They get messages about be nice, be kind, be 187 00:12:27.776 --> 00:12:32.138 helpful, be, you know, all these things, and that's what gets in their 188 00:12:32.138 --> 00:12:36.950 way. And after I left my coaching session with her, I outlined all of what I was 189 00:12:36.950 --> 00:12:41.914 calling quit being a girl that the publisher renamed to Nice Girls don't get the 190 00:12:41.914 --> 00:12:45.448 Corner Office. And so that's really how this transition 191 00:12:45.448 --> 00:12:45.970 happened. 192 00:12:46.050 --> 00:12:50.930 Fascinating, fascinating. So you mentioned the seven things that tend to 193 00:12:50.930 --> 00:12:55.890 get in the way. Out of the seven, is there a top one or are they all 194 00:12:55.890 --> 00:12:56.810 pretty insightful? 195 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:02.650 Well, of course, I think, as the author, I think they're all pretty insightful, but I think the primary one 196 00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:06.170 is building strong, mutually rewarding 197 00:13:06.170 --> 00:13:09.130 relationships. And you're from Great 198 00:13:09.130 --> 00:13:13.650 Britain. So in that book, I used examples of real life people who 199 00:13:13.650 --> 00:13:18.510 derailed in their careers because they either didn't listen, 200 00:13:18.510 --> 00:13:23.230 they didn't have strong relationships. And the example from Great Britain that I used was Margaret 201 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:28.150 Thatcher. If you read Margaret Thatcher's biography, you 202 00:13:28.150 --> 00:13:32.670 learn that she grew up in a household. She was taught, Margaret, always think for yourself, 203 00:13:33.150 --> 00:13:36.310 don't do things just because other people are doing them. Be 204 00:13:36.310 --> 00:13:40.950 independent. She learned those lessons well and look at how they brought 205 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:43.590 her to Prime Minister of Great 206 00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:47.300 Britain. But those messages also derailed 207 00:13:47.300 --> 00:13:51.900 her. That my understanding and you know, you'll have to tell me if I'm wrong because as an American 208 00:13:52.060 --> 00:13:56.940 looking in, or from what I've read, Margaret Thatcher derailed because of the poll tax controversy, 209 00:13:57.580 --> 00:14:00.860 that Margaret Thatcher wanted to put a tax on everyone who 210 00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:05.820 voted. And everyone else, her advisor said, you know, Margaret, this is not a 211 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:10.470 good idea. We don't think that you should do this. And that's when, if you recall 212 00:14:10.630 --> 00:14:15.510 the famous line, you turn if you want to, the lady's not 213 00:14:15.590 --> 00:14:18.510 for turning. That told us everything we needed to know about 214 00:14:18.510 --> 00:14:22.630 her. It also tells us everything we need to know about why she 215 00:14:22.630 --> 00:14:27.030 derailed. Because she wasn't really able to take in information from other 216 00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:31.430 people. She didn't have those kinds of relationships that would support her in the long 217 00:14:31.430 --> 00:14:35.910 run. She was a lone ranger. And so Joanne, let me ask you, would you agree with 218 00:14:35.910 --> 00:14:36.150 that? 219 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:40.890 Yeah, I mean, I was, this was what, late 70s, 220 00:14:41.610 --> 00:14:46.530 and I was probably 16 years old or something at the 221 00:14:46.530 --> 00:14:49.010 time when it all came off the rails, but I remember it quite 222 00:14:49.010 --> 00:14:53.490 distinctly. And we had the miners strike, we had a lot of political unrest, all as a 223 00:14:53.490 --> 00:14:57.370 result. And the Iron lady character that she had 224 00:14:57.930 --> 00:15:01.130 defeated the striking miners, it defeated a lot of 225 00:15:01.130 --> 00:15:05.930 things. But you're right, the poll tax became this kind of the hill she died on, I guess you would call 226 00:15:05.930 --> 00:15:08.820 it. Fundamentally, it wasn't a bad 227 00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:13.860 idea. Before the poll tax, you were kind of taxed as a household based on the size of your 228 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:18.780 house. And what she was trying to say, well, it's only fair if we base it on the number of people who 229 00:15:18.780 --> 00:15:21.940 are eligible to vote. So it's almost like usage 230 00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:26.660 based. So water metering, electricity, gas, so metering based on 231 00:15:26.660 --> 00:15:31.460 usage. And so fundamentally it's a very conservative model and it meant 232 00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:36.380 trying to create fairness. But unfortunately what happened was it meant the people who are very, very 233 00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:40.420 rich with very, very big houses paying lot tax, only one person living in it 234 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:45.060 ended up being much, much better off because they were only paying for one 235 00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:49.900 person. And people with five people living in a small council supplied house were ended 236 00:15:49.900 --> 00:15:54.180 up paying five times the amount than they were before. So fundamentally 237 00:15:54.580 --> 00:15:59.460 it advantaged the rich. And I think that divide was 238 00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:04.400 lost on her. And I think you're right, she probably didn't listen to the 239 00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:08.240 people around her counselling on it. And she was so set on not turning and not you 240 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:08.720 turning. 241 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:14.172 Yes. And that's a great example of someone who could have a fundamentally great 242 00:16:14.172 --> 00:16:18.617 idea. But I think it was the Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu, who said, it's a 243 00:16:18.617 --> 00:16:23.506 curse. Right. May you have a wonderful idea and not be able to convince anyone of 244 00:16:23.506 --> 00:16:28.468 it. And so she really suffered from that and from what you just described, which I 245 00:16:28.468 --> 00:16:31.210 hadn't understood before, it had a chilling 246 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:36.100 effect. What seemed to be neutral on the face had a chilling effect on people who 247 00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:39.804 had less. And don't we see that happen even now in all kinds of 248 00:16:39.804 --> 00:16:44.769 ways? Chilling effects. And I know we'll probably get to that a little bit later, 249 00:16:44.769 --> 00:16:48.176 but, yes, that had a chilling effect. So as a result, she 250 00:16:48.176 --> 00:16:51.139 derailed. So she was the opposite of a nice girl, 251 00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:54.326 Right. She wasn't somebody who would go along to get 252 00:16:54.326 --> 00:16:57.957 along. She wasn't someone who suffered from the disease to 253 00:16:57.957 --> 00:17:02.921 please. So really, that first book, Sabotaging Your Career, was for both men and 254 00:17:02.921 --> 00:17:07.514 women, and I saw both men and women having difficulty with that particular 255 00:17:07.514 --> 00:17:11.442 behaviour. However, in Nice Girls don't get the Corner Office, 256 00:17:11.442 --> 00:17:16.331 it's. It's kind of the opposite. It's not quite the opposite, because when they 257 00:17:16.331 --> 00:17:21.222 change the title from Nice Girls from what I my working title, Quit Being A Girl, 258 00:17:21.222 --> 00:17:26.114 to Nice Girls don't get the Corner Office, I said, you realise I'm going to spend 259 00:17:26.114 --> 00:17:29.223 the rest of my life saying, you can be nice and can be 260 00:17:29.223 --> 00:17:33.223 successful. And they were probably right because it sold a lot of 261 00:17:33.223 --> 00:17:37.964 books. And, you know, it's intriguing, it piques curiosity, but also a lot of 262 00:17:37.964 --> 00:17:42.853 people have told me I didn't buy the book because I thought you were gonna say you 263 00:17:42.853 --> 00:17:46.334 had to be mean and nasty when nothing was further from the 264 00:17:46.334 --> 00:17:51.225 truth. Because if I had the opportunity to coach Margaret Thatcher, I wouldn't 265 00:17:51.225 --> 00:17:55.742 tell her to stop doing anything. And this is also kind of the basis of all my 266 00:17:55.742 --> 00:18:00.557 coaching. Don't stop what you're good at, add new behaviours that are going to 267 00:18:00.557 --> 00:18:05.523 create balance. And in Margaret Thatcher's case, given the opportunity, which 268 00:18:05.523 --> 00:18:08.783 I never would have had anyway, I would have told her to 269 00:18:08.783 --> 00:18:13.524 stop. Do more listening, ask more questions and more consciously decide the 270 00:18:13.524 --> 00:18:18.414 hill that you're going to die on. When it comes to Nice Girls don't get the Corner 271 00:18:18.414 --> 00:18:23.303 Office, All I'm saying is you can't be that nice little girl you were taught to be 272 00:18:23.303 --> 00:18:26.119 in childhood and expect to achieve your adult 273 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:30.786 goals. Just like this client who was finally invited to sit on her executive 274 00:18:30.786 --> 00:18:35.231 committee. She was obviously implementing some of the things we talked 275 00:18:35.231 --> 00:18:38.714 about. You know, I talked to her about, you need to listen 276 00:18:38.714 --> 00:18:43.531 more. You know people, we live in a society where we expect certain things from 277 00:18:43.531 --> 00:18:48.496 men and certain things from women. And when you're not delivering those things, 278 00:18:48.496 --> 00:18:52.942 people are going to react negatively to you and you don't have to deliver 279 00:18:52.942 --> 00:18:57.683 them. I'm not saying you have to change one iota. I tell my clients this all the 280 00:18:57.683 --> 00:19:02.500 time, don't have to change one iota. But look at the playing field you're on and 281 00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:07.461 what does the playing field want from you? And if you want to win on that field, you 282 00:19:07.461 --> 00:19:09.906 may need to learn a couple of new skills. 283 00:19:10.070 --> 00:19:14.030 What you're saying to me sounds like what we would describe these days as emotional 284 00:19:14.030 --> 00:19:17.030 intelligence. Having that self awareness 285 00:19:17.030 --> 00:19:19.870 of. And you also. The other thing you said was build stronger 286 00:19:19.870 --> 00:19:23.620 relationships. And that's the kind of the bookends of emotional intelligence, isn't 287 00:19:23.620 --> 00:19:28.540 it? By being self aware, self regulating, the end result is you build stronger relationships through 288 00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.900 being adaptive and understanding the game you're playing. Really? 289 00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:37.140 You're absolutely right. We know that emotional intelligence is the sine 290 00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:41.500 qua non for success, right? You can have a huge 291 00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:46.580 IQ but a low EQ emotional quotient and you won't be 292 00:19:46.580 --> 00:19:50.660 as successful as someone who has a lower IQ but a higher 293 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:55.060 eq. And we see that happen all the time, people who are not rocket 294 00:19:55.060 --> 00:19:58.340 scientists rising to the top of their 295 00:19:58.340 --> 00:20:02.740 organisations. And that's again because as you said, emotional 296 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:06.660 intelligence is about self awareness, self regulation, social 297 00:20:07.780 --> 00:20:10.980 skills, the ability to show empathy. It's about all those 298 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:15.620 things. Now ironically, Joanne, all those things are things that come naturally to 299 00:20:15.620 --> 00:20:20.410 women. And so women tend to be more emotionally intelligent than 300 00:20:20.410 --> 00:20:25.250 men. They tend to be. When I was coaching more men, I used to do what 301 00:20:25.250 --> 00:20:30.170 I called the feminization of leadership, that men had to learn to 302 00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:35.010 be more like women if they were going to be successful. They had to learn to care what other people 303 00:20:35.010 --> 00:20:38.330 think, to listen more, to show more empathy, 304 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:42.410 right? They had to become more self aware, see themselves as others see 305 00:20:42.410 --> 00:20:46.860 them. If they wanted to be successful leaders, that's exactly what they had to 306 00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:51.740 do. Now what we know today, the pendulum is swinging back because you 307 00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:56.700 have people like Mark Zuckerberg saying men have gotten too soft, we need to really 308 00:20:56.700 --> 00:21:00.180 toughen up, you know, leadership. We need Men to be tougher 309 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:04.740 leaders. You see, our own Secretary of Defence, Pete 310 00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:07.980 Hegseth, I can never pronounce his name and I don't really 311 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.680 care. Saying that women don't belong in. Don't really belong in the 312 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.280 military. 313 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:12.840 Right. 314 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:17.400 So we've seen the pendulums shift, but I believe that emotional 315 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.800 intelligence will always be the sine qua non for 316 00:21:20.800 --> 00:21:23.720 success. It always has been, it always will be. 317 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.680 Yeah. I don't see many wars being fought by women in the world or 318 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.560 started by women or propagated by women. Women are often the victims or the 319 00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:36.440 targets or the. Or the people who are most affected by 320 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.200 conflict. These scenarios. And Margaret Thatcher wasn't for 321 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:44.760 turning. There's a lot of politicians who have the same sort of impact as 322 00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:47.520 well. They think the biggest and loudest is best. 323 00:21:48.560 --> 00:21:49.280 Exactly. 324 00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:49.760 Yeah. 325 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:55.440 And you know, it's interesting because I did a little talk the other day and somebody said that they 326 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.600 thought the military style of leadership, loudest is best, top 327 00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:00.000 down. 328 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.560 Right. 329 00:22:00.560 --> 00:22:04.600 That tough kind of leadership is the best. And I said, not 330 00:22:04.600 --> 00:22:09.440 anymore. I mean, when I was growing up in the corporation, when the 331 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:13.400 boss said jump, we said, how high? If you say jump today, 332 00:22:14.120 --> 00:22:18.080 people don't say how high. They say, why? Why do you want me to do 333 00:22:18.080 --> 00:22:19.280 this? What's in it for me? 334 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:19.640 Right. 335 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:24.687 It's a discussion. And so, as I explained to this gentleman who said he thought 336 00:22:24.687 --> 00:22:29.051 military leadership was the best, I said, it's only good in an emergency 337 00:22:29.051 --> 00:22:32.978 situation. It's only good when you need someone to say, take that 338 00:22:32.978 --> 00:22:36.322 hill. It's not good in MO and probably 90% of leadership 339 00:22:36.322 --> 00:22:40.975 scenarios. It doesn't work. And it particularly doesn't work in this day and 340 00:22:40.975 --> 00:22:45.920 age. And it's precisely. I'm glad you went there, Joanne, because it's precisely 341 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:50.793 why I say if ever we've lived in a time that cries out for women's leadership, that 342 00:22:50.793 --> 00:22:55.592 time is now. Because you look around the world and you see war, poverty, famine, 343 00:22:55.592 --> 00:23:00.465 corporate greed. We're not at the helm. You know, I said to a friend the other day, 344 00:23:00.465 --> 00:23:05.411 what do you think would have happened if Netanyahu and Donald Trump were replaced 345 00:23:05.411 --> 00:23:09.409 with two women? Would we be at war? And she said, oh, no, definitely 346 00:23:09.409 --> 00:23:14.353 not. We would be at the negotiating table. And I believe that with all my heart that 347 00:23:14.353 --> 00:23:19.006 we need, just as you're saying, we need more women in significant leadership 348 00:23:19.006 --> 00:23:22.422 roles if we want to change the world. You may have read the 349 00:23:22.422 --> 00:23:27.367 book. There's a book I wish I wrote. It's called Gather the Women, Save the World by 350 00:23:27.367 --> 00:23:31.947 Jean Shinoda Bolen. And she talks about how if we have any hope of saving this 351 00:23:31.947 --> 00:23:35.800 world, it will be because we bring women together in leadership 352 00:23:35.800 --> 00:23:36.236 roles. 353 00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:41.780 Yeah, I think I completely agree with that and I'm sure, hopefully you'll agree with what I'm going to say is 354 00:23:41.780 --> 00:23:46.620 that we need a balance, don't we? We need, we need that, both that masculine and feminine 355 00:23:46.620 --> 00:23:50.180 energy to balance out those perspectives. So it's not one or the 356 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:53.620 other. I think, I think what we need to do is we need to bring the skills, bring the emotional 357 00:23:53.620 --> 00:23:58.160 intelligence. And we can't also say that there are men who don't have emotional 358 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:01.640 intelligence. It's not a, a purely female 359 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:05.200 trait. In terms that we can. We always used to argue that women had no leadership 360 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:09.680 capability. It was a man's job to be, to be a leader. You know, the army, the, back in the 361 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.640 1800s and the 90s where women's role was to, to walk around looking pretty all the 362 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.720 time. There was no, there's no expectation that women could do 363 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.440 anything. But yeah, I think it's just trying to find that, that natural 364 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.220 synergy between the, between the, the thinking styles and the emotional styles, isn't 365 00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:26.500 it? 366 00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:32.032 Absolutely. And I'm with you. It's about balance. You know, the Native Americans had a 367 00:24:32.032 --> 00:24:35.553 word for it, it's called Koyaanisqatsi. And it's about world 368 00:24:35.553 --> 00:24:38.385 imbalance. And I think that's exactly what has to 369 00:24:38.385 --> 00:24:43.012 happen. And we are totally out of balance right now. And I think that's why so many 370 00:24:43.012 --> 00:24:47.778 people are suffering. There's too much suffering in the world because we are out of 371 00:24:47.778 --> 00:24:48.331 balance. 372 00:24:50.830 --> 00:24:55.790 Yeah, there's too many conflicts at the moment that are 373 00:24:55.790 --> 00:24:59.670 bouncing and bumping off each other with an agenda that nobody really 374 00:24:59.670 --> 00:25:02.910 understands. Is it about money? Is it about power? Is it about 375 00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:07.870 oil? Is it about what's it all about? And it comes down to 376 00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:12.950 a certain group of people who may well be described as men without 377 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:17.910 enough female influence. And I think if you look at some of the administrations around the world, they are male 378 00:25:17.910 --> 00:25:21.630 dominated. Those cultures and societies do not respect women's 379 00:25:21.630 --> 00:25:26.430 opinions. And it's. And we see some of the areas of the world, Afghanistan, places like that, rolling back women's 380 00:25:26.430 --> 00:25:29.870 rights even further. That's a really sad state of 381 00:25:29.870 --> 00:25:32.910 affairs. And we can't solve that problem today. But yeah, it's. You're right, 382 00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:37.510 it's. We need that energy, we need those, that thinking. And wars would be 383 00:25:37.510 --> 00:25:41.310 less. Well, wars would be different. Wars would be 384 00:25:41.310 --> 00:25:46.230 different. We've probably still. They'll be bitchy to each other, but they might result in 385 00:25:46.230 --> 00:25:50.750 not talking to each other for a while or something else happening. But we certainly wouldn't be launching missiles as a first 386 00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:51.310 reaction. 387 00:25:51.710 --> 00:25:55.216 Exactly, exactly. Did you read the book the Chalice and the Blade by 388 00:25:55.216 --> 00:25:55.590 Riane? 389 00:25:55.590 --> 00:25:56.270 No, I haven't. Not. 390 00:25:56.590 --> 00:26:00.061 I think it was Riane Eisler. I think Eisler was the 391 00:26:00.061 --> 00:26:04.719 author. And in this book she talked about the fact that we know that 392 00:26:04.719 --> 00:26:07.344 there were matriarchies throughout 393 00:26:07.344 --> 00:26:12.255 history. And we know that because when you look at their graves and the 394 00:26:12.255 --> 00:26:17.082 burial sites, the, the ores, the iron and the ores were used to create 395 00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:21.823 chalices that you drink out of to create ornamental things because 396 00:26:21.823 --> 00:26:25.124 that's what was surrounding the women in these 397 00:26:25.124 --> 00:26:29.953 graves. Right. And then when the, the. I think they were Nordic, but I 398 00:26:29.953 --> 00:26:33.848 don't want to. I don't want to. I'm not sure I can swear to 399 00:26:33.848 --> 00:26:38.759 that. But somehow as people came from the north and invaded, they came 400 00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:43.078 and they took those irons and oars and they made weapons out of 401 00:26:43.078 --> 00:26:46.210