WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.310 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:15.888 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your 3 00:00:15.888 --> 00:00:20.827 guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:20.827 --> 00:00:22.622 belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.622 --> 00:00:27.292 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:27.292 --> 00:00:30.972 world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:30.972 --> 00:00:35.461 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:35.461 --> 00:00:40.128 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep 9 00:00:40.128 --> 00:00:44.795 within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning 10 00:00:44.795 --> 00:00:49.553 coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect 11 00:00:49.553 --> 00:00:54.400 and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the 12 00:00:54.400 --> 00:00:56.734 conversation too. Reach out to 13 00:00:56.734 --> 00:01:01.583 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or 14 00:01:01.583 --> 00:01:05.714 to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 15 00:01:05.714 --> 00:01:10.293 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 16 00:01:10.293 --> 00:01:10.830 Bites. 17 00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:20.610 And today is episode 224 with the title 18 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:25.810 Disarming Through Empathy. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 19 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.730 Jo Berry. Jo is an international speaker, dialogue 20 00:01:29.730 --> 00:01:34.370 facilitator. Facilitator who helps people and organisations navigate conflict, 21 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:39.090 division and difficult conversations, courage, compassion and 22 00:01:39.090 --> 00:01:44.050 humanity. When I asked Jo to describe her superpower, she said that it is her 23 00:01:44.050 --> 00:01:48.920 ability to use empathy to disarm division, build trust across difference 24 00:01:49.320 --> 00:01:52.040 and create conditions for honest healing 25 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:54.920 dialogue. Hello, Jo. Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.560 Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me on your show. 27 00:01:59.000 --> 00:01:59.720 Fantastic. 28 00:01:59.800 --> 00:02:04.640 We met. I think we were just trying to work it out probably about four years ago in Dublin, didn't we, at a 29 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:08.680 professional speaking conference and you were one of the keynotes 30 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.640 or. No, you were part of a mini panel, weren't you? 31 00:02:12.370 --> 00:02:13.170 No, keynote. 32 00:02:13.170 --> 00:02:17.370 Keynote. It's a keynote. Yeah. And we kind of kept in touch loosely over the last four 33 00:02:17.370 --> 00:02:21.690 years. But it's an absolute pleasure to meet you again. I've been so looking forward to this 34 00:02:21.690 --> 00:02:22.290 conversation. 35 00:02:23.330 --> 00:02:27.210 Me too. Was lovely meeting you in Dublin. Yeah, 36 00:02:27.210 --> 00:02:30.730 we've. It's just taking us time, but I believe this is the right time for us to do 37 00:02:30.730 --> 00:02:31.010 this. 38 00:02:31.970 --> 00:02:36.290 Yeah, I'm not going to. I'm not going to ruin the moment of you explaining the storey 39 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:41.170 you. At that moment, when you gave your. You gave your talk in Dublin, 40 00:02:42.140 --> 00:02:46.620 you changed the way I think about a lot of things and it really, really 41 00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:51.100 inspired me to dig deeper into myself, to truly understand 42 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:56.500 around empathy, around compassion and around also realising 43 00:02:56.500 --> 00:03:01.180 that your opinion is your opinion, which you're allowed to hold, doesn't mean 44 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:06.020 that's the truth or the fact. And everybody has opinions and we have to somehow live 45 00:03:06.020 --> 00:03:10.040 in a world where. Where we can coexist with people who think differently to 46 00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:15.000 ourselves. I think you were pivotal in a real change in my thinking 47 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:15.600 at that time. 48 00:03:15.600 --> 00:03:18.400 Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing. That's really 49 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:18.880 touching. 50 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.640 So what happened? What led you on the path? You want to 51 00:03:22.640 --> 00:03:23.040 die? 52 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.992 Yes. Thank you. I have to go back to October 12, 1984, when I was just 53 00:03:28.992 --> 00:03:33.459 27. Waking up that morning, I'll never forget my twin sister 54 00:03:33.459 --> 00:03:38.284 saying to me, a bomb had gone off at the Grand Hotel in Brighton and 55 00:03:38.284 --> 00:03:41.232 was at the hotel that our dad was staying 56 00:03:41.232 --> 00:03:46.056 at. Now, my dad was a Tory MP and he was attending the Conservative 57 00:03:46.056 --> 00:03:50.255 Party, their annual conference, and I knew he was in that 58 00:03:50.255 --> 00:03:54.990 hotel. So their waiting started, waiting to find out whether he 59 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:59.905 was alive, whether he was injured. And about eight hours later, he 60 00:03:59.905 --> 00:04:04.640 was one of five people who were killed who was blown up by a bomb by 61 00:04:04.640 --> 00:04:09.553 the IRA. Probably many of your listeners don't know about the IRA, 62 00:04:09.553 --> 00:04:14.199 but I, as a teenager did have experiences of, like, sometimes I 63 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.862 couldn't get to school, there were bomb scares in 64 00:04:17.862 --> 00:04:20.542 London. But I never thought it was my 65 00:04:20.542 --> 00:04:24.741 problem. You know, I thought it was a problem in Northern 66 00:04:24.741 --> 00:04:27.958 Ireland. So I didn't live in fear. I lived in 67 00:04:27.958 --> 00:04:32.604 peacetime. You know, my dad was safe. I never realised he'd be a 68 00:04:32.604 --> 00:04:37.516 target. And from the moment that we heard that he'd been killed and 69 00:04:37.516 --> 00:04:41.000 they found his body, part of me also died in that 70 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:45.825 bomb. You know, the me that believed in life was something to have 71 00:04:45.825 --> 00:04:50.024 fun, to play, to be peaceful, because now this is the real 72 00:04:50.024 --> 00:04:52.704 world. In the real world, people get 73 00:04:52.704 --> 00:04:57.528 killed. And so it opened me to what war is, what terrorism is, what 74 00:04:57.528 --> 00:05:01.459 genocide is. And I couldn't go back to the person I had 75 00:05:01.459 --> 00:05:06.105 been. It weighed heavily on my shoulders and my heart because I 76 00:05:06.105 --> 00:05:10.660 could feel it. So I lost my dad, but I also lost part of me in that 77 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:11.100 bomb. 78 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:15.980 I do remember it at the time, and obviously the news coverage was quite considerable, but I 79 00:05:15.980 --> 00:05:20.740 guess it focused on the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. The Cabinet member, Norman 80 00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:25.450 Tebbit was very, well, sort of publicised in that. But your father, I guess, 81 00:05:25.450 --> 00:05:30.130 wasn't one of the leading lights and probably didn't get the same media focus as the 82 00:05:30.130 --> 00:05:33.610 celebrity, if you like politicians or from your point of view, did 83 00:05:33.610 --> 00:05:37.970 he? Or is it fortunate that you didn't get the same media attention he did 84 00:05:37.970 --> 00:05:42.128 for us, get the media attention. Like his photograph was often 85 00:05:42.128 --> 00:05:46.528 there. He was the only MP who was killed and he had a minor role in the 86 00:05:46.528 --> 00:05:50.767 government, but because he was the only MP, he was talked about a 87 00:05:50.767 --> 00:05:55.487 lot. Terrorism is so public. It's not something just happens to you and 88 00:05:55.487 --> 00:05:59.966 your family. It happens to everyone. And because the Conservative 89 00:05:59.966 --> 00:06:04.925 government was a target, I guess it was the worst terrorist attack we'd had 90 00:06:04.925 --> 00:06:09.885 at that time. Obviously things changed a few years later with 9 11, but this 91 00:06:09.885 --> 00:06:14.845 is 84, you know, and there was the. I think it was the time when, you know, the 92 00:06:14.845 --> 00:06:17.965 whole country just had to kind of sit up and take 93 00:06:17.965 --> 00:06:22.604 note. And, you know, the IRA themselves said that that bomb did more to 94 00:06:22.604 --> 00:06:27.404 create the change they wanted than any bomb that had gone off in Northern 95 00:06:27.404 --> 00:06:30.044 Ireland because it nearly got the whole 96 00:06:30.044 --> 00:06:34.683 government. Like if the, if the Grand Hotel hadn't been built so well, 97 00:06:34.683 --> 00:06:37.210 there would be many, many more deaths. 98 00:06:37.210 --> 00:06:42.170 It was a big bomb or potentially the Prime Minister and most of the 99 00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:45.010 cabinet could have, could have lost their lives in that. 100 00:06:45.010 --> 00:06:49.000 Yeah. And all the support staff, all of 101 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:49.240 them. 102 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:53.183 Like the Grand Hotel was where the more iMPortant ministers 103 00:06:53.183 --> 00:06:56.285 were. And the only reason my dad was there was that 104 00:06:56.285 --> 00:07:00.975 he'd. There was a minister who'd left the day before and said to my dad and my 105 00:07:00.975 --> 00:07:04.228 stepmother, do you want my room? It's spare. So they 106 00:07:04.228 --> 00:07:04.680 moved. 107 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:06.160 Right. 108 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.135 Otherwise he wouldn't have been in one of the prime rooms at the front, which coMPletely 109 00:07:10.135 --> 00:07:10.680 collapsed. 110 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:15.680 I suppose it's the modern day equivalent of the Gunpowder Plot from the Houses of Parliament and Guy 111 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:17.860 Fawkes, isn't it? It's the modern equivalent to yes. 112 00:07:17.860 --> 00:07:20.100 Except Patrick Magee was more successful. 113 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:22.660 Yes. Yes. It wasn't cool on the way in. 114 00:07:23.780 --> 00:07:25.300 No. Oh, yeah. 115 00:07:26.260 --> 00:07:29.340 You must have what emotions going through you at the 116 00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:32.540 time? Obviously sadness and loss. But did 117 00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:35.300 it. Did anger creep into those emotions at the time? 118 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:40.242 No, that was later. No. I felt very disassociated, that I was in my own 119 00:07:40.242 --> 00:07:45.019 world and I couldn't connect with anyone else apart from people who 120 00:07:45.019 --> 00:07:48.601 love my dad. And even then I felt very alone because 121 00:07:48.601 --> 00:07:51.247 of. Of the questions I had about how it 122 00:07:51.247 --> 00:07:55.769 happened. And two days later, on my own, I made a silent pledge to 123 00:07:55.769 --> 00:08:00.548 understand those who'd killed him and to bring something positive 124 00:08:00.548 --> 00:08:05.070 out of it. And that helped the part of me that didn't know who I was 125 00:08:05.070 --> 00:08:09.933 anymore, didn't know how to act, didn't know what my life was going to 126 00:08:09.933 --> 00:08:14.710 be like because I had a plan, I had a journey and had no map and I didn't 127 00:08:14.710 --> 00:08:19.149 know how. You know, these days, if you put in AI, how do you bring 128 00:08:19.149 --> 00:08:23.842 something positive out of a terrorism? You'd find so much, so much 129 00:08:23.842 --> 00:08:26.999 there. But like, this is 84. And I kept it very 130 00:08:26.999 --> 00:08:31.780 quiet. To myself, no one knew, but it gave me a sense of where to go and 131 00:08:31.780 --> 00:08:36.645 where to start. And the starting point was, I'm not going to hate, I'm 132 00:08:36.645 --> 00:08:39.974 not going to go for revenge. I'm going to try and 133 00:08:39.974 --> 00:08:43.130 understand. So it's back to empathy that you 134 00:08:43.130 --> 00:08:47.654 mentioned. I'm going to bring empathy to. To those who killed my 135 00:08:47.654 --> 00:08:52.517 dad. Now the papers, the media was full of these monsters they called 136 00:08:52.517 --> 00:08:57.296 them and worse names, you know, See, I was never going to get answers 137 00:08:57.296 --> 00:09:02.159 from reading newspapers or listening to the radio because they were 138 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.657 like the most demonised terrorists we had at that 139 00:09:05.657 --> 00:09:09.410 time. And that didn't help me because I knew they had a 140 00:09:09.410 --> 00:09:12.651 story. I knew they were. They were people with 141 00:09:12.651 --> 00:09:17.514 humanity. And so how do I find that out? And that's what I'd been doing 142 00:09:17.514 --> 00:09:18.680 all these years. 143 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:23.603 I was quite affected when I visited Kilmainham Jail in Dublin and 144 00:09:23.603 --> 00:09:28.455 listened to the storys of the people who were involved in the first 145 00:09:28.455 --> 00:09:33.308 uprising, the General Post Office and the attempts there, and how 146 00:09:33.308 --> 00:09:37.896 they were summarily hung, hanged and the whole story about the 147 00:09:37.896 --> 00:09:42.393 individuals that hanged at that time. I found huge amounts of 148 00:09:42.393 --> 00:09:46.981 empathy for their cause and the way that the British at the time 149 00:09:46.981 --> 00:09:51.832 treated them. And I guess some of the roots of what you experienced 150 00:09:51.832 --> 00:09:56.243 your father lost his life through, trace right back to those 151 00:09:56.243 --> 00:10:00.919 historical injustices, if you like, the way the British and the 152 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.800 Irish were at loggerheads back at the turn of the last 153 00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:08.681 century. And it's really ingrained in people, isn't 154 00:10:08.681 --> 00:10:08.940 it? 155 00:10:09.170 --> 00:10:12.050 Yes, yes. It goes back hundreds and hundreds of 156 00:10:12.050 --> 00:10:16.262 years. And recently the lack of justice, the difference between how 157 00:10:16.262 --> 00:10:21.211 Protestants were treated and how Catholics were treated, that's back in the 60s 158 00:10:21.211 --> 00:10:25.865 and the 70s. So what I find in conflict, in. Well, in conflict that has turned 159 00:10:25.865 --> 00:10:30.739 violent is people, they justify why they're right, you know, they justify that 160 00:10:30.739 --> 00:10:35.687 their cause is absolutely right. And then having defended their cause, the next 161 00:10:35.687 --> 00:10:39.527 step is to take actions to prove their right to act that they're 162 00:10:39.527 --> 00:10:42.407 right. And then that moves into the spectrum of 163 00:10:42.407 --> 00:10:46.987 violence. And we're going a bit further in the story, so I'll leave that for 164 00:10:46.987 --> 00:10:51.492 now. But it's something that I've certainly experienced, the political 165 00:10:51.492 --> 00:10:53.260 righteousness on all sides. 166 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:58.285 And the old adage, you know, history is written by the victors, is so the storys you hear 167 00:10:58.285 --> 00:11:03.162 are the storys of the winning side, if you want to. But if you ever want to have winners, 168 00:11:03.162 --> 00:11:06.873 losers, and one person's terrorist is another person's freedom 169 00:11:06.873 --> 00:11:11.820 fighter. And it's really understanding the echo chamber and the belief system and why 170 00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:16.629 people do this. And I'm a great believer that nobody wakes up in the morning to be a bad 171 00:11:16.629 --> 00:11:21.302 person. Everybody wakes up in the morning believing in what they believe they're 172 00:11:21.302 --> 00:11:24.052 doing for the right reasons and their righteous 173 00:11:24.052 --> 00:11:29.000 cause. And I think being able to have that empathy for that belief means that you can sit 174 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:33.947 down with people that you have no respect for, for their views, but you have respect for 175 00:11:33.947 --> 00:11:35.184 them as human beings. 176 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:38.642 Definitely. You've hit the spot with that, like, 177 00:11:38.642 --> 00:11:43.480 definitely. And as human beings, we have the capacity, I think, to hear 178 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.400 storys from different sides from opposing sides and to be able to listen 179 00:11:48.400 --> 00:11:53.156 and acknowledge them all. But that's not something that you see in our 180 00:11:53.156 --> 00:11:57.994 politicians or is taught in history. So when I go to Northern Ireland, I 181 00:11:57.994 --> 00:12:02.832 can sit in a room with someone who was an ex ira, someone who was one of the 182 00:12:02.832 --> 00:12:05.621 loyalist paramilitaries, an ex British 183 00:12:05.621 --> 00:12:09.065 soldier. I can listen and give empathy to all three 184 00:12:09.065 --> 00:12:12.837 storys. You know, I think at that point our brains, sort 185 00:12:12.837 --> 00:12:17.429 of. My brain can't quite compute that, but sort of, for me, the heart 186 00:12:17.429 --> 00:12:21.939 takes over. Like there is a space in us to be able to listen to people 187 00:12:21.939 --> 00:12:26.367 without that judgement going, well, you're wrong, because this 188 00:12:26.367 --> 00:12:31.123 happened in history, but actually listen and witness it and go, okay, 189 00:12:31.123 --> 00:12:33.419 this is interesting. This is your 190 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:38.339 experience. And then you hear someone else who's got a perspective from 191 00:12:38.339 --> 00:12:41.045 a completely different side and it's as 192 00:12:41.045 --> 00:12:44.735 valid. But that's not what's really modelled to us, is 193 00:12:44.735 --> 00:12:44.981 it? 194 00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:50.570 Yeah. Understanding why somebody thinks something isn't the same as agreeing with what they 195 00:12:50.570 --> 00:12:50.850 think. 196 00:12:51.180 --> 00:12:51.660 Exactly. 197 00:12:52.060 --> 00:12:57.034 Yeah. I think that was one of the powerful lessons, I think, that you gave me 198 00:12:57.034 --> 00:13:00.483 at the time that has allowed me to. I think the word is 199 00:13:00.483 --> 00:13:04.893 equanimity. Someone told me that word be able to better hold those 200 00:13:04.893 --> 00:13:07.861 positions, those paradoxes, and not rush to 201 00:13:07.861 --> 00:13:08.580 judgment. 202 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:13.478 Yeah. And it is a skill that I think it's hard. I think it requires emotional 203 00:13:13.478 --> 00:13:18.218 maturity. And I still. I don't know about you, but I still sometimes have 204 00:13:18.218 --> 00:13:21.299 part of me that wants to rush in judgment and go, 205 00:13:21.300 --> 00:13:25.800 yeah, but I think that's a human thing. I do exactly that. I can feel 206 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.640 my chimp brain kicking in, my amygdala's kicking in my emotions, my vagus nerve triggers it 207 00:13:31.640 --> 00:13:34.760 and I go, wait. I can feel myself being 208 00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:37.840 judgmental. I know I'm being judgmental. Okay, step 209 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.920 back. So I've almost got a little subroutine in my brain that fires off 210 00:13:41.920 --> 00:13:46.640 now. And I can now not necessarily stop it coming out, but at least Manage 211 00:13:46.640 --> 00:13:50.080 it and better work myself back. I can pull myself out of that 212 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.470 hole. But I think it's so human to be 213 00:13:54.470 --> 00:13:57.350 judgmental and it's our survival mechanism, isn't 214 00:13:57.350 --> 00:13:57.630 it? 215 00:13:58.430 --> 00:14:03.350 Yeah, but that's brilliant that you've got the self awareness and then the 216 00:14:03.350 --> 00:14:07.350 skills to hold back and then sometimes it's too 217 00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:12.270 difficult. I say things that I do regret but then I also know how to heal 218 00:14:12.670 --> 00:14:17.550 any harm that I've inflicted and to put my hands up and go, okay, that wasn't okay, 219 00:14:17.790 --> 00:14:21.590 like. And then do whatever I need to do to, to heal 220 00:14:21.590 --> 00:14:25.830 it. Because it's not about being perfect and that's so 221 00:14:25.830 --> 00:14:26.110 important. 222 00:14:26.430 --> 00:14:31.270 That's the emotional intelligence, isn't it? It's the self awareness to know how 223 00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:34.830 you've impacted somebody else and then owning that, being 224 00:14:34.830 --> 00:14:35.470 accountable. 225 00:14:36.510 --> 00:14:41.150 Yeah. Ask them how, how did that impact you? Do, do let me know and 226 00:14:41.310 --> 00:14:45.680 then to be able to hear it without feeling so much shame that we can't hear 227 00:14:45.680 --> 00:14:50.600 it. I think shame is an obstacle for hearing how we've impacted people and 228 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.800 it tries to stop us from hearing and go but yeah, but I was doing my best, you 229 00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:59.119 know. But actually to say, yeah, you're right, I messed up means almost going 230 00:14:59.119 --> 00:14:59.400 beyond. 231 00:14:59.400 --> 00:15:03.640 We're trying to apologise and excuse ourselves, aren't we? We're trying to justify it almost 232 00:15:04.520 --> 00:15:07.480 rather than saying it's inexcusable, I messed 233 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.120 up. What should I do differently next time or help me? How can I learn from 234 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.080 this? And actually doing something about it, isn't it? That's the key 235 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:14.360 thing. 236 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.160 That's disarming, that's healing. 237 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:24.320 Because if you do it once, it's a mistake. If you do it repeatedly, it's your choice not to change, 238 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:24.960 isn't it? 239 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:26.720 That's true, 240 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.200 that's true. And that's not judgmental. It's just allowing people the 241 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.000 choice to change. Because I try not to tell people what to do, think or say, 242 00:15:38.640 --> 00:15:43.490 just that they should think about what they do and say and they have 243 00:15:43.490 --> 00:15:47.450 to find their own decisions and their own points in the way they want to 244 00:15:47.450 --> 00:15:51.490 communicate. All I can do is say the impact was this or could be 245 00:15:51.490 --> 00:15:51.770 this. 246 00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:56.690 Definitely. And you're right. People don't change because we tell them 247 00:15:56.690 --> 00:16:00.650 they have to. People change because they feel 248 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:06.300 safe enough to make that change. They feel heard all 249 00:16:06.300 --> 00:16:09.900 sorts of reasons why people change. But change happens within 250 00:16:09.900 --> 00:16:14.460 us. And as you know, I've had the most extraordinary 251 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:19.140 relationship for the last. Well, it'll be 26 years at the end of this year 252 00:16:20.020 --> 00:16:24.820 and I know the man I met would not have changed if I'd gone into 253 00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:28.020 that meeting and said, you're a bad man, you have to 254 00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:28.340 change. 255 00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:33.300 Yeah. I look at conflicts around the world and Northern Ireland is one of 256 00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:37.780 them. But you look at apartheid, you look at Nelson Mandela, you look at 257 00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:41.860 other regions in the world where you have. The sides are so polar 258 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:46.420 opposite. The challenge really is stepping forward 259 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:50.140 and not ignoring the past, but not letting the past dictate the 260 00:16:50.140 --> 00:16:54.980 future. That's the heartbeat, really. Is letting go of your prisoners and agreeing 261 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:56.740 a destination that you can all get behind? 262 00:16:56.900 --> 00:17:01.620 Yes. And people need to be heard. People who've gone through trauma 263 00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:06.340 need to be listened to. People who've gone through suffering, they just need to be 264 00:17:06.340 --> 00:17:11.290 heard. And that in itself allows a space to open up 265 00:17:11.290 --> 00:17:16.090 for maybe something else to happen. But we can't expect people to move on and 266 00:17:16.090 --> 00:17:20.810 meet other people who represent their other without them being really, really listened 267 00:17:20.810 --> 00:17:21.090 to. 268 00:17:21.090 --> 00:17:25.410 That must be really, really tough, because if you're the person that has been 269 00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:29.730 impacted, giving the other person space to be heard 270 00:17:30.930 --> 00:17:34.650 has a detrimental effect on your own mental health and your own 271 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:37.650 resilience. So you're the pain healer and the pain 272 00:17:37.650 --> 00:17:42.450 giver. It's kind of this little paradox there of allowing 273 00:17:42.450 --> 00:17:45.330 people to be heard but also wanting to be healed yourself. 274 00:17:45.330 --> 00:17:48.431 Well, I think that's why we quite often have a 275 00:17:48.431 --> 00:17:53.039 facilitator. So I do restorative justice, and I would never bring 276 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.557 people together after harm has happened straight 277 00:17:56.557 --> 00:18:01.415 away. There's always the preparation so they feel heard and listened 278 00:18:01.415 --> 00:18:06.357 to, so that when they are in the room with the person who's hurt them, and 279 00:18:06.357 --> 00:18:10.798 I've done it after murder, homicide, sexual abuse, all sorts of 280 00:18:10.798 --> 00:18:15.574 crimes, they're enough, they're resourced enough to be able to be in 281 00:18:15.574 --> 00:18:20.264 the room so they can hear what the other person has to say and they can 282 00:18:20.264 --> 00:18:24.957 share the impact on them. But I wouldn't do that if I didn't feel they 283 00:18:24.957 --> 00:18:27.974 were ready. What's different for me is when 284 00:18:27.974 --> 00:18:32.833 I. Is this the right time? I could mention my meeting was that there was 285 00:18:32.833 --> 00:18:37.694 no pra. There was no one in the room. So I decided that I really wanted to 286 00:18:37.694 --> 00:18:42.551 see the humanity in here, the story of the man who actually planted the 287 00:18:42.551 --> 00:18:46.237 bomb in Brighton. And he was released after the peace 288 00:18:46.237 --> 00:18:51.095 process. And I knew that when he came out, he stopped joining the IRA so 289 00:18:51.095 --> 00:18:55.954 that he was no longer violent. I met people who knew him, I met other men 290 00:18:55.954 --> 00:18:57.965 in the ira, so that was like my 291 00:18:57.965 --> 00:19:02.909 preparation. But I went to meet him in someone's house in Dublin with no 292 00:19:02.909 --> 00:19:05.422 one there to facilitate it. And I was 293 00:19:05.422 --> 00:19:10.281 scared. But there was something in me that just had a need to see him as a 294 00:19:10.281 --> 00:19:15.056 human being. Not to get an apology, not to tell him he was a bad man, but 295 00:19:15.056 --> 00:19:19.915 just to be there with him. And I thought he would come with a mindset of, 296 00:19:19.915 --> 00:19:24.775 we were freedom fighters, we had injustice, we were oppressed, there 297 00:19:24.775 --> 00:19:29.633 was no other way. And that bomb was successful because eventually led 298 00:19:29.633 --> 00:19:34.576 to the peace process. And I knew he'd come with a sense of righteousness 299 00:19:34.576 --> 00:19:39.518 and that he wouldn't be thinking about any victim because I'd met other 300 00:19:39.518 --> 00:19:44.292 men in the IRA and I'd learned that about them, that they didn't think 301 00:19:44.292 --> 00:19:49.234 about their victims. And that first meeting I thought, well, I thought 302 00:19:49.234 --> 00:19:52.920 it'd be a one off meeting. No one knew I was going to see 303 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.935 him. I'd meet him once and then that would be 304 00:19:55.935 --> 00:19:59.202 that. I would leave and no one would know I'd met 305 00:19:59.202 --> 00:20:04.144 him. But what happened in that first meeting was beyond my imagination 306 00:20:04.144 --> 00:20:06.825 of what could happen, which was that he 307 00:20:06.825 --> 00:20:10.763 changed. And he would later say that he was disarmed by my 308 00:20:10.763 --> 00:20:15.704 empathy. And if I'd gone in there ranting and raging, arguing history, 309 00:20:15.704 --> 00:20:18.638 he would have stayed in a very safe place of 310 00:20:18.638 --> 00:20:23.330 justification. But instead he opened up and became vulnerable and 311 00:20:23.330 --> 00:20:27.937 said to me, I don't know anymore who I am, Tell me how you are, tell me 312 00:20:27.937 --> 00:20:32.797 about your anger, tell me about your dad. And he went from seeing my dad 313 00:20:32.797 --> 00:20:36.821 as a legitimate target to seeing him as a human being with a 314 00:20:36.821 --> 00:20:39.836 soul. And that for him was a huge shift, huge 315 00:20:39.836 --> 00:20:44.525 change. And it started his own journey. And it's a journey that he's 316 00:20:44.525 --> 00:20:49.302 still on after all these years of coming to terms that when he planted 317 00:20:49.302 --> 00:20:54.079 that bomb, he didn't see anyone in the hotel, he didn't care who was in 318 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.761 the hotel, he just wanted the bomb to go 319 00:20:56.761 --> 00:21:00.951 off. That was his only thing he wanted to realising that he is 320 00:21:00.951 --> 00:21:05.892 responsible for killing and that the qualities he sees and respects in 321 00:21:05.892 --> 00:21:09.999 me must have come from my dad. So that brings him closer to my 322 00:21:09.999 --> 00:21:14.774 dad. So he's gone from completely dehumanising to rehumanizing and 323 00:21:14.774 --> 00:21:18.627 recognising that he could have had a conversation with 324 00:21:18.627 --> 00:21:20.700 him. And that is a huge change. 325 00:21:20.860 --> 00:21:23.580 You've picked up a couple of words there, humanising, 326 00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:28.420 dehumanising. When you dehumanise somebody or a group of 327 00:21:28.420 --> 00:21:31.060 people, you don't have 328 00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:35.940 empathy. I mean, one of the things about humanization is the empathy. So you can do things to somebody who 329 00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:38.220 you've dehumanised without 330 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:43.000 empathy. Coldly, because you don't see them as human, you see them as other, 331 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:48.040 as a target. And I've noticed that 332 00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:53.120 political leaders in other parts of the world right now use dehumanising language to 333 00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:57.880 describe their opposition. They give them nicknames, they give them dehumanising 334 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.720 terms and devalue who they are through these nicknames, and then everybody 335 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:07.210 picks up on those and that person becomes an avatar, a 336 00:22:07.210 --> 00:22:11.210 dehumanised avatar, rather than actually humanising their 337 00:22:11.210 --> 00:22:15.970 empathy. And it's a very powerful tool that certain factions in the politics and 338 00:22:16.450 --> 00:22:20.890 organisations do now, is they. They use this demonising dehumanisation as 339 00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:24.250 a. As a way of justifying the means to the 340 00:22:24.250 --> 00:22:24.530 end. 341 00:22:24.530 --> 00:22:29.490 Yes. So as Patrick Magee knows now, he couldn't kill my dad 342 00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:34.460 knowing what he knows about him. In the same way, if politicians had empathy 343 00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:39.140 for people in different parts of the world, different communities, they couldn't hurt 344 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:43.820 them. But when we make people our other and dehumanise them, that then allows 345 00:22:43.820 --> 00:22:47.419 us to hurt them without a sense of shame or 346 00:22:47.419 --> 00:22:50.540 sadness. Because that part, we've lost our 347 00:22:50.540 --> 00:22:55.140 humanity. And that's what I see happening. Like it's lost through many, many different 348 00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:57.500 ways. And how do we regain that 349 00:22:57.500 --> 00:22:58.140 humanity? 350 00:22:58.220 --> 00:23:03.090 You see it going on in the Middle east right now, I think, where you're two factions who 351 00:23:03.090 --> 00:23:06.810 just see the word terrorist at the other end of 352 00:23:06.810 --> 00:23:11.730 the. The other end of the bomb, if you like, or the other end of the trajectory, and you're not actually thinking 353 00:23:11.730 --> 00:23:16.690 about the lives, the people you're destroying, the families, the smiles, 354 00:23:16.690 --> 00:23:21.290 the laughs, the communities that were once there are just 355 00:23:21.610 --> 00:23:24.290 casualties in a. An exercise to achieve an 356 00:23:24.290 --> 00:23:24.810 objective. 357 00:23:24.810 --> 00:23:29.762 Exactly. And that really breaks my heart, because I know every bomb that 358 00:23:29.762 --> 00:23:34.468 goes off, there's exactly what you said. There's family, grieving, 359 00:23:34.468 --> 00:23:39.092 real people, you know, And I hear stories from people in Gaza, I hear 360 00:23:39.092 --> 00:23:41.733 people stories in Lebanon, in Iran, in 361 00:23:41.733 --> 00:23:46.523 Israel. And I feel we are a global family. We're all connected and it's 362 00:23:46.523 --> 00:23:51.476 possible. I call it unbounded empathy, because people think empathy is 363 00:23:51.476 --> 00:23:56.182 just for those that are like us. But actually they're all people with 364 00:23:56.182 --> 00:24:01.054 humanity. They've all got their stories, they all deserve dignity and 365 00:24:01.054 --> 00:24:05.183 to be safe. And at the moment, that's not the focus we give the 366 00:24:05.183 --> 00:24:09.972 labels. I think the labels can be really harmful because once you give 367 00:24:09.972 --> 00:24:14.017 someone a label like a terrorist, then you stop respecting 368 00:24:14.017 --> 00:24:18.972 them. And even when I speak about Patrick Magee, I always say he's the man 369 00:24:18.972 --> 00:24:23.430 who planted the bomb which killed my father, rather than he's the 370 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:27.227 terrorist because that gives him choice to be more than 371 00:24:27.227 --> 00:24:31.933 that. Well, if I call him a terrorist, then that kind of narrows who he 372 00:24:31.933 --> 00:24:32.160 is. 373 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.600 Yeah, it's a label you can lean into or dehumanise 374 00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:40.640 using. You know, he may, he may welcome that label because that's how he maybe saw himself or 375 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:45.680 he wanted to create terror. Maybe that. Yeah. But I think you're 376 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.520 right. You bring it back to the function of what 377 00:24:48.520 --> 00:24:53.470 occurred. He planted a bomb without any justification or motivation 378 00:24:53.470 --> 00:24:57.190 behind that. That's an act which is 379 00:24:57.350 --> 00:24:58.190 undeniable. 380 00:24:58.190 --> 00:25:02.790 Yeah, it is. It takes away the judgments. I guess he would have seen himself more as a 381 00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:05.550 freedom fighter than a 382 00:25:05.550 --> 00:25:10.430 terrorist. But I've spoken with him when he's been accused of being 383 00:25:10.430 --> 00:25:15.070 a terrorist in the audience, and I think it stops the 384 00:25:15.070 --> 00:25:19.560 conversation when people do that because that judgement almost blinds people 385 00:25:20.040 --> 00:25:24.920 that actually he has a storey. And what interventions 386 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.720 could have happened to stop him from planting that bomb? Because at 10 years old, 387 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:34.800 he wouldn't want to grow up and be a terrorist. You know, there are reasons why people do 388 00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:38.200 it. Never excuse the violence. Like for me, violence never 389 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.000 works. But can we understand 390 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.920 it? And that's a really interesting question because I think 391 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:47.520 any terrorist has 392 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:53.080 reasons. They have needs they're trying to meet. Now, could they meet those needs in a more 393 00:25:53.080 --> 00:25:54.880 peaceful way? That's the question. 394 00:25:55.040 --> 00:25:59.840 Yeah. I think when we look at discrimination and these sort of things, they all have isms 395 00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:04.080 and phobias. There's some deep rooted fear of 396 00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:07.840 someone who's different or a lack of understanding of someone who's 397 00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:12.640 different. So it's easier to say, I'm righteous in my echo chamber, 398 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:17.440 my group. In group, you are different, you're from over the hill, you must be a threat, 399 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.560 et cetera, et cetera. So I think the language we use can quickly 400 00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:27.039 escalate from casual name calling into discrimination, 401 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:30.160