WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.310 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:15.888 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your 3 00:00:15.888 --> 00:00:20.827 guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:20.827 --> 00:00:22.622 belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.622 --> 00:00:27.292 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:27.292 --> 00:00:30.972 world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:30.972 --> 00:00:35.461 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:35.461 --> 00:00:40.128 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep 9 00:00:40.128 --> 00:00:44.795 within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning 10 00:00:44.795 --> 00:00:49.553 coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect 11 00:00:49.553 --> 00:00:54.400 and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the 12 00:00:54.400 --> 00:00:56.734 conversation too. Reach out to 13 00:00:56.734 --> 00:01:01.583 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or 14 00:01:01.583 --> 00:01:05.714 to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 15 00:01:05.714 --> 00:01:10.293 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 16 00:01:10.293 --> 00:01:15.230 Bites. And today 17 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:20.450 is episode 225 with the title Clarity 18 00:01:20.850 --> 00:01:25.690 Within Complexity. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Simon 19 00:01:25.690 --> 00:01:29.970 Mont. Simon is a lawyer, strategist, facilitator, 20 00:01:30.450 --> 00:01:34.930 mystic and problem solver who helps mission driven organisations 21 00:01:35.090 --> 00:01:39.970 align their values, vision and impact whilst creating environments where people 22 00:01:39.970 --> 00:01:44.530 can thrive and contribute meaningfully. When I asked Simon to describe his superpower, he said 23 00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:49.940 that it is his ability to hold complexity and clarity at the same 24 00:01:49.940 --> 00:01:52.740 time. Hello, Simon, welcome to the 25 00:01:52.740 --> 00:01:52.980 show. 26 00:01:53.300 --> 00:01:55.380 Hi Joanne, thanks so much for having me. 27 00:01:56.580 --> 00:01:58.420 Where that's in the world Are you Simon? 28 00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:02.740 I'm in the mountains above Santa Fe, New Mexico, in the United 29 00:02:02.820 --> 00:02:03.220 States. 30 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:06.820 That's beautiful. Lovely weather at the moment. Is it getting warmer? 31 00:02:06.980 --> 00:02:09.620 Yes, actually. Incredible weather the past couple days. 32 00:02:09.620 --> 00:02:14.490 And for those of you listening, you can't see this, but I can see behind Simon is at least two or 33 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:18.330 three saxophones hanging on the wall. So you're into jazz or just 34 00:02:18.330 --> 00:02:18.770 collect? 35 00:02:19.330 --> 00:02:23.130 No, I grew up playing saxophone. Jazz and funk mostly, and 36 00:02:23.130 --> 00:02:26.490 blues. So I grew. Yeah, I grew up, grew up playing 37 00:02:26.490 --> 00:02:28.690 them. Got a degree in it when, when I went to 38 00:02:29.090 --> 00:02:33.690 college. I don't play as much as I used to, but I've kind of transitioned more to string 39 00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:37.610 instruments because you can just pick them up off the ground and strum them for a couple 40 00:02:37.610 --> 00:02:37.970 minutes. 41 00:02:37.970 --> 00:02:41.371 It was always one of my lifelong ambitions was to play the 42 00:02:41.371 --> 00:02:46.290 sax. Our son, he had lessons when he was, when he was a child, so we got him an alto sax 43 00:02:46.290 --> 00:02:50.197 and we've still got it somewhere. And I always wished that I could 44 00:02:50.197 --> 00:02:54.323 just. I'm talking about going to a party and someone has a sax on their 45 00:02:54.323 --> 00:02:57.144 wall. You walk up to it, grab it and you just peel 46 00:02:57.144 --> 00:03:01.195 off. Baker street in the corner and just. And just hang it back up and 47 00:03:01.195 --> 00:03:03.654 go. That's it. Yeah, just that one song or 48 00:03:03.654 --> 00:03:06.620 something. Just feel. pour something out of sax. 49 00:03:07.190 --> 00:03:08.790 Why saxophone for you? 50 00:03:09.750 --> 00:03:14.510 I think it's. I don't know, it's just that kind of. It's an 51 00:03:14.510 --> 00:03:18.150 iconic instrument, isn't it? It's got that sort of vibe about it, that sort 52 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:22.827 of. I don't know. Trumpet is a bit too shouty, and I think saxophone is 53 00:03:22.827 --> 00:03:26.504 really subtle and sound that comes out of it. I think that's what it 54 00:03:26.504 --> 00:03:29.511 is. It just drew me into that kind of. It's a friendlier 55 00:03:29.511 --> 00:03:29.910 sound. 56 00:03:29.910 --> 00:03:33.190 I think it's got quite a mythology around it, 57 00:03:33.190 --> 00:03:33.510 too. 58 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:34.200 There's a. 59 00:03:34.200 --> 00:03:39.080 There's a great book about, like, a biography of the saxophone called the Devil's Horn, which is really 60 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.200 fun. Well, and yeah, the. The person who created it 61 00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:47.000 was. He had the factory bombed a couple times because he was such a threat to the 62 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:52.000 kind of rigid military band establishment as he was creating a instrument to attempt 63 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.560 to replace it. And then it kind of carried over this mythos to the United States, where it 64 00:03:56.560 --> 00:04:01.280 began to represent kind of like an erotic soul that then kind of got 65 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:06.130 picked up in jazz also. Often people attribute it to it 66 00:04:06.130 --> 00:04:11.050 because it's a. The reed instrument really mimics the human voice a lot and then has a lot of, like, 67 00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:13.850 breadth and flexibility that the brasses 68 00:04:13.850 --> 00:04:16.010 didn't. So it was seen as like a. 69 00:04:17.450 --> 00:04:21.130 Yeah. A threat to rigid, structured. Its establishment 70 00:04:21.290 --> 00:04:22.730 in. In the music world. 71 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:26.850 Is it the only brass that has a read, then? Is that. Is that it's. It's 72 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:27.290 unique? 73 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.370 No, there's a bunch of woodwinds. So, like a clarinet is also a 74 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:31.890 woodwind. 75 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:36.610 Yeah, but the sax is a brass instrument, whereas the clarinet's wooden or 76 00:04:37.010 --> 00:04:39.330 plastic these days, isn't it? Yeah. 77 00:04:39.330 --> 00:04:40.930 So it's made of. It's made of brass. 78 00:04:40.930 --> 00:04:41.570 But the. 79 00:04:41.570 --> 00:04:45.850 But the difference between brass and woodwind is actually about the 80 00:04:45.850 --> 00:04:49.890 mouthpiece. So a brass instrument has a full brass mouthpiece and a woodwind has a 81 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:50.210 reed. 82 00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:53.970 Right. Okay. Okay. That's the difference. Wow. You see? 83 00:04:54.290 --> 00:04:55.010 There we go. 84 00:04:55.650 --> 00:04:57.570 This podcast is amazing. We're covering. This is. 85 00:04:57.570 --> 00:05:00.730 This is what people are coming for when they. When they sign up for 86 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:03.330 the. For the Inclusion Bites podcast. 87 00:05:03.810 --> 00:05:07.570 It is. Yeah. And it's. Well, we like to just do a bit of background on 88 00:05:07.570 --> 00:05:12.210 our. On the guest as well, rather than just launch into the work, if you 89 00:05:12.210 --> 00:05:16.050 like. Yeah, I like to get to know people. So one thing I loved 90 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:19.810 about. I pulled it out. Your superpower. Whole complexity and 91 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:24.730 clarity. At the same time. And you nodded when I, when I said that was what's going to read 92 00:05:24.730 --> 00:05:26.850 out? What does that mean to you then? 93 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:31.810 I think complexity is about understanding that there's so many 94 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:35.330 different ways to perceive a situation and perceive 95 00:05:35.330 --> 00:05:39.410 reality. So many paradigms, so many lenses that we can look through 96 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:44.730 that each reveal certain things, certain elements of what's real, certain 97 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:49.290 choices, they point us to certain ideas of what is right and wrong, desirable, not 98 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:54.210 desirable, because there's a lot going on. And then clarity is the ability 99 00:05:54.210 --> 00:05:58.010 to kind of maintain focus inside of all of that, 100 00:05:59.130 --> 00:06:03.610 to discern what we truly ought to be doing 101 00:06:03.930 --> 00:06:08.490 in a given moment. Just like to make it grounded, for example, like in the world of 102 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:13.170 organisational development, DEI and HR and all 103 00:06:13.170 --> 00:06:18.160 that. There's a lot of situations where if you take 104 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:23.080 a conflict, for example, and if you look through it from one perspective through a 105 00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:27.680 race based lens, you'd be like, oh, I can see how anti blackness is playing out 106 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:32.519 here. So you look through the anti blackness lens, you see that, but you move and you look through 107 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.360 the gender lens and you say, oh, there's something else happening. But then you switch and you look 108 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:41.320 through. I'm not going to look through an identity based lens. I'm really going to look at the structural power dynamics and the 109 00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:45.530 roles and responsibilities. I'm gonna see something else and then, okay, I'm not gonna look through any of 110 00:06:45.530 --> 00:06:49.850 those. I'm gonna look through a, like a psychological lens, like an internal family systems 111 00:06:49.850 --> 00:06:54.810 lens. I'm gonna see something else. You can keep seeing all these different lenses, which is great, 112 00:06:54.810 --> 00:06:59.730 but then at the end of the day there's a conflict of what are we gonna, how are we gonna move inside of it, what 113 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:04.450 are we gonna talk about and how do we maintain clarity to not get lost in all those 114 00:07:04.450 --> 00:07:09.010 possibilities. And some of it's about clarity about which lens to prioritise in a 115 00:07:09.010 --> 00:07:13.240 moment. Right. Sometimes it, it's really important to prioritise a race based 116 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.680 lens. And sometimes prioritising a race based lens is actually gonna escalate the conflict and 117 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.320 dehumanise everyone involved. 118 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:24.400 So it's a bit like being at the opticians where they swap the lens out and you're having to look at 119 00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:28.760 the scenario, evaluate each through each of the 120 00:07:29.080 --> 00:07:33.920 various lens or no lens, and extrapolate that and then swap in the 121 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:38.820 most important layers, lenses to, to achieve 122 00:07:38.820 --> 00:07:41.420 what you're trying to look for. More than one lens. 123 00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:42.020 Yeah. 124 00:07:42.020 --> 00:07:46.740 And being able to discern which one. And the question of like, well, which lens do we use at which 125 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.260 time always comes back to like, well, what are we really trying to achieve 126 00:07:50.260 --> 00:07:52.860 here? And being able to stay clear about that. 127 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:57.780 Do you think that some people come with a preconceived or a pre baked lens 128 00:07:57.780 --> 00:08:01.900 scenario and the problem maybe is trying to get people to step back from that 129 00:08:02.490 --> 00:08:05.130 preconceived idea and look it through other, other 130 00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:05.770 perspectives? 131 00:08:06.650 --> 00:08:11.530 Yeah, I think we all have. We're all operating with some lenses that 132 00:08:11.530 --> 00:08:16.450 we're not even aware of. And I think the more aware of whatever lens we're bringing, the 133 00:08:16.450 --> 00:08:20.850 more we can ask the question of whether it's appropriate for the given 134 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:25.050 moment. If I don't even know what lens I'm looking through, then I can't ask if it's 135 00:08:25.050 --> 00:08:29.530 appropriate. And I think that, like in the realm of HR and DEI 136 00:08:29.690 --> 00:08:34.629 type practitioners, I think some of us make an assumption the lenses 137 00:08:34.629 --> 00:08:36.949 we use are good and appropriate in all 138 00:08:36.949 --> 00:08:41.749 circumstances. And after, you know, 10 years in the game, I've noticed that actually some of the 139 00:08:41.749 --> 00:08:46.589 lenses that I thought were going to be appropriate in all circumstances actually, actually weren't and 140 00:08:46.589 --> 00:08:51.509 were harmful in some of them. Some of the things, some of the lenses that I used to wear all 141 00:08:51.509 --> 00:08:56.309 the time because I thought that by wearing them I would be a good person or a moral person 142 00:08:56.389 --> 00:09:01.070 or work toward the world that I wanted to see. I realised that actually I 143 00:09:02.030 --> 00:09:06.950 cared more about what I looked like while I was wearing the lenses than what the lenses 144 00:09:06.950 --> 00:09:08.350 actually allowed me to see. 145 00:09:08.430 --> 00:09:13.230 Most people, I would say most people, all people generally come from a place 146 00:09:13.230 --> 00:09:17.470 of good. They come from a place where they genuinely believe they're right 147 00:09:18.510 --> 00:09:21.430 and that their perspective is the most valid. And 148 00:09:21.430 --> 00:09:26.390 that's. And then when you're engaging, you come with your own perceived idea 149 00:09:26.390 --> 00:09:30.360 that you're right and your perspective is valid. And it's really hard to try and 150 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:36.200 meet those two perspectives that are maybe diametrically opposed or in conflict 151 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.120 and better see our way through that. 152 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.960 Yeah, there's a tool that I use a lot in my work called 153 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:46.600 polarities. When there's those diametrically opposed perspectives or 154 00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:49.240 beliefs, and it's just a really basic 155 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:54.360 observation. If we enter the game when we've noticed that polarity 156 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:59.350 that feels diametrically opposed, if we enter that conversation with an 157 00:09:59.350 --> 00:10:03.590 assumption that each of our perspectives carries a gift and a risk, 158 00:10:04.230 --> 00:10:09.070 there's something beautiful in what you're saying. And there's something that if we over 159 00:10:09.070 --> 00:10:13.230 fixate and only use yours, a risk we're exposed to, and that's the same with 160 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:18.190 mine. And then the game Becomes okay, how can we unearth the gifts and 161 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:23.180 risks of both of our perspectives in order to create something new 162 00:10:23.260 --> 00:10:26.860 that harnesses as much of the gifts and as little of the risks as 163 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:31.820 possible? And then the way like that becomes really tricky is that 164 00:10:31.820 --> 00:10:36.140 as we're doing that we're also liable to judge each other 165 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:41.260 for the perspective. It's one thing for me to say I disagree with you and there's a risk in your 166 00:10:41.260 --> 00:10:45.660 perspective. Then there's a judgement that's like, and you're a bad person because you are holding that 167 00:10:45.660 --> 00:10:50.020 perspective. And then when we get in those judgments then we like escalate and it's 168 00:10:50.020 --> 00:10:54.800 nonsense. And then there's also underlying power dynamics that are based on all the 169 00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:58.480 different things from identities to structures to roles, whatever it 170 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.320 is. So if we enter and you have significantly more power 171 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:07.880 than I do, then and we don't negotiate that well, your 172 00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:11.560 perspective is going to dominate. We're going to get the gifts and the risks of your 173 00:11:11.560 --> 00:11:16.520 perspective. We're not going to get very many of the gifts of my perspective and we're not 174 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:20.530 actually going to be able to play this human creation game as well as we could 175 00:11:20.530 --> 00:11:20.850 have. 176 00:11:22.130 --> 00:11:27.090 One thing I've noticed recently is quite a few people accuse people with other views 177 00:11:27.490 --> 00:11:31.650 of holding the power. This whole semi global 178 00:11:32.290 --> 00:11:36.610 anti wokeness that's occurred, it's because people who were seen as woke, 179 00:11:37.010 --> 00:11:41.970 marginalised suddenly have more power than the majority. And of course those 180 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:46.690 who are feeling marginalised and the woke people are looking back and going, hang on a minute, I haven't got 181 00:11:46.690 --> 00:11:49.410 power, I'm being oppressed, I'm trying to fight for my 182 00:11:49.650 --> 00:11:54.630 existence. And so there's often mismatch between who has the power and 183 00:11:54.630 --> 00:11:59.550 who perceives who has the power. And people are feeling threatened because they see it as a zero sum 184 00:11:59.550 --> 00:12:01.150 game. If you have it, I can't. 185 00:12:02.510 --> 00:12:07.204 Yeah, power is very odd and complex and most of us have very oversimplified 186 00:12:07.204 --> 00:12:11.972 understandings of how it operates because we have to understand like how it 187 00:12:11.972 --> 00:12:16.816 operates. My internal experience of how it operates and how I believe it then 188 00:12:16.816 --> 00:12:21.662 actually like interpersonally, how we actually are exerting power and then 189 00:12:21.662 --> 00:12:26.658 organizationally and systemically. But I think that one of the things that has 190 00:12:26.658 --> 00:12:31.275 a lot of power in a lot of different areas is the ability to cast oneself as a 191 00:12:31.275 --> 00:12:36.194 victim, cast someone else as a threat or an oppressor and then behave as if your 192 00:12:36.194 --> 00:12:39.525 actions toward your presumed oppressor are thereby 193 00:12:39.525 --> 00:12:44.142 justified. It happens everywhere the mo like in most situations, if I can 194 00:12:44.142 --> 00:12:48.909 convince all the People around me or enough people around me that I'm the one 195 00:12:48.909 --> 00:12:53.603 that's the victim, then I can kind of do whatever I want and nobody's really 196 00:12:53.603 --> 00:12:57.389 gonna. Nobody's really gonna check me. And you can see that, 197 00:12:57.389 --> 00:13:01.249 right? The anti wokeness is a. And American, you know, kind of 198 00:13:01.249 --> 00:13:03.898 Trumpism. And MAGA is absolutely a victim 199 00:13:03.898 --> 00:13:06.396 narrative. Their whole idea is we are at 200 00:13:06.396 --> 00:13:11.318 threat. Those people over there are taking power, those people over there are 201 00:13:11.318 --> 00:13:15.252 getting something out of us, therefore we ought to attack or do 202 00:13:15.252 --> 00:13:19.870 something. And actually like, really interesting on an organisational 203 00:13:19.870 --> 00:13:24.639 level. You know, I work, most of my work is in kind of American leftist social 204 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:29.257 justice kind of spaces. We actually do the same thing in our organ in those 205 00:13:29.257 --> 00:13:33.649 organisations, right. You have somebody who says, I'm being treated 206 00:13:33.649 --> 00:13:38.496 inequitably, I'm being treated unjustly, that boss has too much power over, 207 00:13:38.496 --> 00:13:43.492 over me. If they can then get people to buy into that narrative, oftentimes they 208 00:13:43.492 --> 00:13:48.109 can do a lot of things. Sometimes it's really accurate and sometimes they 209 00:13:48.109 --> 00:13:52.347 become really disruptive and sometimes aggressive and sometimes 210 00:13:52.347 --> 00:13:57.117 problematic and violent themselves because they believe that they are the 211 00:13:57.117 --> 00:14:01.659 victim. So this idea of like the difference between this victim mindset 212 00:14:01.659 --> 00:14:06.504 wielded for power and like true victimisation is something that it's really 213 00:14:06.504 --> 00:14:07.791 hard to tease apart. 214 00:14:08.930 --> 00:14:13.910 Yeah, I see more of it where people who hold the views 215 00:14:13.910 --> 00:14:18.750 you were talking about, the MAGA and the. Those sort of views really truly believe that 216 00:14:18.750 --> 00:14:23.630 they are the victims. We see it, the rise of the manosphere, the rise of 217 00:14:23.630 --> 00:14:28.230 toxic masculinity. Women are oppressing men. We're seeing a lot of that in young 218 00:14:28.390 --> 00:14:32.790 boys now, probably in the US as well as the uk. And it's this belief that 219 00:14:34.710 --> 00:14:38.480 people are losing power or losing someone else that holds control over 220 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:38.800 them. 221 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:44.466 Yeah, yeah, I think the, That's a. You know, my read of all of that is that like, 222 00:14:44.466 --> 00:14:49.335 if you go into like the polarity idea, right, If I interact with that and say, 223 00:14:49.335 --> 00:14:54.126 okay, there's something real that they're saying, there's some gift here 224 00:14:54.126 --> 00:14:57.449 that they're trying to bring and there's some risk, 225 00:14:57.449 --> 00:15:02.163 okay. At the same time, if I take the pause and say, all right, I'm not gonna 226 00:15:02.163 --> 00:15:06.644 judge them, I'm not gonna just be like those wackadoodles, those evil 227 00:15:06.644 --> 00:15:11.513 people, even though I'm aware of the risk. Because if I, if I don't check that 228 00:15:11.513 --> 00:15:16.460 manosphere belief structure, right, what we're actually advocating for is 229 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:21.329 like a really violent form of patriarchy that's terrible to queer and Trans 230 00:15:21.329 --> 00:15:26.044 people, terrible to women, ends up controlling bodies and actually then 231 00:15:26.044 --> 00:15:30.914 becomes terrible to the males and the men as well as their identities become 232 00:15:30.914 --> 00:15:33.388 collapsed into these kind of shells of 233 00:15:33.388 --> 00:15:38.180 themselves. And then it also gives them an excuse to, to kind of treat earth 234 00:15:38.180 --> 00:15:42.740 and not earth itself and non human inhabitants as objects for their own 235 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:45.986 desires. In the same way. It's. It's kind of gross, 236 00:15:45.986 --> 00:15:49.697 actually. The gross. You heard me. That's the judgement, 237 00:15:49.697 --> 00:15:53.638 right? What I was before was, okay, those are the risks of that 238 00:15:53.638 --> 00:15:58.043 thing. But then I went gross and like, okay, there, that's more of the 239 00:15:58.043 --> 00:16:02.911 judgement. But there's a gift. They're actually, I think they're actually 240 00:16:02.911 --> 00:16:07.627 really trying to point us to, which is like first in the United States, the 241 00:16:07.627 --> 00:16:12.573 sense of, right, the sense of loss that they're experiencing, I think is very 242 00:16:12.573 --> 00:16:17.056 real, right? There was a. There's a whole generation of people who are 243 00:16:17.056 --> 00:16:20.148 growing up essentially like rooted, what is the 244 00:16:20.148 --> 00:16:24.707 word? Rootless, right? They don't have a place to ground their sense of 245 00:16:24.707 --> 00:16:28.415 self. They don't have their place to ground their sense of 246 00:16:28.415 --> 00:16:32.820 identity. It's being attacked, it's being undercut from all sides, 247 00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:37.690 right? So because you have a kind of capitalist patriarchal narrative that 248 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:42.327 says you're not worth anything unless you have high status, high money, 249 00:16:42.327 --> 00:16:45.186 sexually engaged with a high status female, 250 00:16:45.186 --> 00:16:50.133 right? All of these things, but then makes all of those incredibly scarce and 251 00:16:50.133 --> 00:16:54.616 incredibly hard to access, especially though like money and status, 252 00:16:54.616 --> 00:16:57.167 right? So they're like, okay, what is my 253 00:16:57.167 --> 00:17:01.574 worth? What am I doing? And then they go to the left and you know, to the 254 00:17:01.574 --> 00:17:06.443 political left. And as a white guy who has spent, you know, more than a decade 255 00:17:06.443 --> 00:17:09.535 in leftist spaces, especially years ago, it was 256 00:17:09.535 --> 00:17:14.405 hard. A lot of side eye, right? A lot of scepticism, a lot of having to swallow 257 00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:19.272 other people's projections. And then the left built this idea of what a good 258 00:17:19.272 --> 00:17:23.910 man is. And the good man is actually very quiet, always in a support role, 259 00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:28.702 always listening, always. And then, and then the left like really went far 260 00:17:28.702 --> 00:17:33.648 into a very kind of like old school original sin narrative, which was like, if 261 00:17:33.648 --> 00:17:38.442 you're, if you're a white, if you're a guy, if you're straight, you are born 262 00:17:38.442 --> 00:17:41.224 into your role as a problem because of these 263 00:17:41.224 --> 00:17:45.477 structures. And because of that, what we expect of you is to kind of 264 00:17:45.477 --> 00:17:50.037 constantly apologise and make yourself small and believe that you are 265 00:17:50.037 --> 00:17:53.052 inherently sinning by virtue of your embodied 266 00:17:53.052 --> 00:17:57.843 existence. It was very. And then, okay, like you go over there as a guy, it's 267 00:17:57.843 --> 00:18:01.322 not really easy to find belonging it's not really easy 268 00:18:01.322 --> 00:18:04.105 to. To find it. And. And then in that vacuum, 269 00:18:04.105 --> 00:18:09.051 right? Then people come and they say, okay, men and boys, you're lost, you're 270 00:18:09.051 --> 00:18:12.606 hurting, you feel abandoned, you feel at risk, you feel 271 00:18:12.606 --> 00:18:17.475 scared. All those feelings incredibly real. And now we get a narrative that 272 00:18:17.475 --> 00:18:19.715 then takes that and moves that into 273 00:18:19.715 --> 00:18:24.506 something. I think there's a lot of risks with the narrative, but I think if 274 00:18:24.506 --> 00:18:29.298 you look underneath it, I think what you see is like this big vacuum and pain 275 00:18:29.298 --> 00:18:34.090 that some of us who are trying to create a world based on more like, you know, 276 00:18:34.090 --> 00:18:38.804 liberatory, feminist type principles, we left that vacuum there in some 277 00:18:38.804 --> 00:18:43.753 ways, in the way that we organised ourselves. We didn't strategize toward it 278 00:18:43.753 --> 00:18:44.420 as much as. 279 00:18:45.290 --> 00:18:49.690 Yeah, no, I think the other thing is that we are in a world now where 280 00:18:50.330 --> 00:18:54.970 influencers can monetize their influence and people 281 00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:59.050 follow them. And so we look at TikTok, YouTube, whatever platform you're using, 282 00:19:00.410 --> 00:19:02.930 people sell a brand and they sell a 283 00:19:02.930 --> 00:19:07.850 perspective. And if you're feeling disenfranchised in any way from, 284 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:11.750 as you say, maybe these ideals, who are what a man should 285 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:14.990 be. And you. Hang on, hang on a minute. That doesn't sound like me, but this person 286 00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:18.350 does. And you can very easily get sucked into that world, can't 287 00:19:18.350 --> 00:19:18.590 you? 288 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:23.550 Yeah, and it doesn't. And there's this, like, really deep, I think, internal 289 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.470 attunement and discernment that we have to 290 00:19:26.470 --> 00:19:29.790 have. I'll just say, like, as a straight white guy, because 291 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:34.430 every. Every thought that I've ever heard somebody on the manosphere 292 00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:38.280 articulate is a thought that I have had in my own mind, 293 00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:42.240 right? Everyone, Right, the. About what 294 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.040 it. What it means to be a man and how I ought to be and what I'm entitled to and how people 295 00:19:47.040 --> 00:19:50.520 should treat me. All of those thoughts are things that have run through my 296 00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:55.280 head. So I have to be in a practise of discerning what is 297 00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:58.760 really, really true for me and who do I really want to be 298 00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:02.360 otherwise? Somebody outside. I think it's a lot of what's happening, 299 00:20:02.360 --> 00:20:07.260 right? Somebody outside of me who says a thought out loud that 300 00:20:07.260 --> 00:20:10.820 I have had inside but I have thought is a bad or shameful 301 00:20:10.820 --> 00:20:14.260 thought. They've now just given me permission to identify with the 302 00:20:14.260 --> 00:20:19.020 thought. So then what we have is this very interesting thing, right? I'm sitting here having thoughts, and that group of 303 00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:22.140 people over there on the left is telling me I'm bad for having the 304 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.100 thoughts. And that group of people over there is telling me I'm normal and I'm good for having the 305 00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:31.060 thoughts. And unless I have like an incredible level of moral clarity, what am I going to 306 00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:34.630 do? I'm going to say, forget you guys, I'm going to accept 307 00:20:34.630 --> 00:20:39.590 myself. They're telling me it's okay. I'm going over there, I'm going to find belonging, I'm going to find 308 00:20:39.590 --> 00:20:42.670 place, I'm going to find meaning, I'm going to find purpose over 309 00:20:42.670 --> 00:20:47.110 there. If I go over there, I'm going to find exclusion and side eye and 310 00:20:47.110 --> 00:20:51.870 scepticism. It's actually like a challenging thing to navigate and I think it's 311 00:20:51.870 --> 00:20:56.510 cool because there are people who are very aware of this and they're trying to build that space 312 00:20:56.670 --> 00:21:01.630 that's both kind of morally clear and also centred 313 00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:06.030 on creating like a belonging for people to navigate this in a better 314 00:21:06.030 --> 00:21:06.350 way. 315 00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:10.510 Yeah. That sense of belonging you talked about, it's. It's a bit like osmosis, isn't 316 00:21:10.510 --> 00:21:15.470 it? You're always going to go to the migrate to the point of less salinity if you like, and try and even it 317 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:20.270 out. So you're going to always permeate across to what resonates where you feel most 318 00:21:20.270 --> 00:21:23.150 comfortable, where you can be yourself, your thoughts 319 00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:28.030 align. If you're having to fit yourself into the other perspective, you're always going to feel uncomfortable, always 320 00:21:28.030 --> 00:21:30.870 going to feel threatened, always going to feel you're masking and 321 00:21:31.030 --> 00:21:34.070 covering. If you're going that way, feeling free this 322 00:21:34.070 --> 00:21:37.550 way. So, yeah, our affinity group builds amongst that as 323 00:21:37.550 --> 00:21:38.870 well. Yeah. 324 00:21:38.870 --> 00:21:43.830 And I think it's also like, what part of the self is that space 325 00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:48.830 resonating with? Because parts of me are really comfortable in some 326 00:21:48.830 --> 00:21:53.350 spaces. Like I've never been in a space where I'm like, okay, every 327 00:21:53.350 --> 00:21:56.190 single part of me feels really comfortable and really welcome 328 00:21:56.190 --> 00:22:00.490 here. Some spaces I bring out something, some spaces I bring out another 329 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:04.890 thing. And I think we all have different parts and different needs that we're 330 00:22:04.890 --> 00:22:09.290 navigating and those are drawing us around and it's 331 00:22:09.290 --> 00:22:14.169 really. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think that people then go to a place where some 332 00:22:14.169 --> 00:22:18.970 part of them that feels like has not had a place suddenly feels like it has 333 00:22:18.970 --> 00:22:23.890 a place. And then they can often fully identify with that and they're like, okay, this is me, this is the 334 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:28.850 real me. And then interestingly enough, they'll then start absorbing all of the other norms in 335 00:22:28.850 --> 00:22:32.710 that where that part of them feels belonging and then get 336 00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:37.390 confused. That's actually one of the things that happened to me years ago when I really, like, was moving into 337 00:22:37.390 --> 00:22:40.630 queer community. There's a time where I was wearing a dress, wearing high 338 00:22:40.630 --> 00:22:45.350 heels. That's how I was being in the world. And part of parts of me when I did that felt 339 00:22:45.350 --> 00:22:49.310 super reflected and super cared for and super seen in a way that they 340 00:22:49.310 --> 00:22:53.990 hadn't. And then I was in a very particular community, a very particular geography, and I 341 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:58.240 noticed what I was doing was all of a sudden I was scared of being excluded from that 342 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.920 community. So I would just say all the things that would let me stay and I wouldn't challenge any of the norms 343 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.560 there. I wouldn't. There were parts of myself I wouldn't bring in the same way in any 344 00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:09.240 community. And then I kind of 345 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:12.600 kept. So that's one of the reasons why I keep moving around through so many different 346 00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:14.120 places. It's fascinating. 347 00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:19.720 Yeah, I hear you. I mean, certainly the community, the queer community, the part of it 348 00:23:20.120 --> 00:23:22.890 I. You could. You could argue I'm aligned 349 00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:27.690 to. Has its own rule set, has its own mantras, has its own, you know, dare 350 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:32.610 say ideology that people talk about. And sometimes you have to sort of step back and go, hang on a minute, 351 00:23:32.610 --> 00:23:36.929 I'm not drinking that Kool Aid. This is not. That's. That's not. That's not me, that's 352 00:23:36.929 --> 00:23:40.130 you. And I actually have a different view on this than you do. And you're 353 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:45.050 right. If you're not careful, you get ostracised or shunned out of that community into this 354 00:23:45.050 --> 00:23:49.370 no man's land where you're not. You don't fit anywhere. And so you're desperate to hang onto 355 00:23:49.370 --> 00:23:54.010 it. So you believe what people believe. I think it takes a brave person to be able to go, 356 00:23:54.010 --> 00:23:56.010 actually, I'm not buying all of that. 357 00:23:57.050 --> 00:23:57.490 Yeah. 358 00:23:57.490 --> 00:24:01.650 And I think some of what we're talking right now is about the relationship between power and 359 00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:05.170 belonging. Because we all need belonging so deeply, 360 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:09.890 right? There's psychological, emotional needs and there's still the very real material and 361 00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:14.450 physical needs for folks. And it's coming from an embodied history of, like, if you were 362 00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:18.090 excluded from the tribe and you had to feed yourself, that was it, 363 00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:22.490 Right? So we need this belonging. And then it means that whoever, whatever 364 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:27.250 ideology or structure then brokers that belonging has a 365 00:24:27.250 --> 00:24:32.130 tremendous amount of power over us. And that's, I think, one of 366 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:36.930 the reasons why some of navigating some, like, complex and nuanced DEI 367 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:39.650 stuff in organisations can be really, really 368 00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:44.090 tender. Because if, like, I've seen a number, like in one 369 00:24:44.570 --> 00:24:49.130 number of groups, I'll think of one in Particular like there was a whole bunch of staff 370 00:24:49.290 --> 00:24:54.210 who were saying that, you know, there's a toxic power structure and it's a white supremacist power structure and kind of bringing 371 00:24:54.210 --> 00:24:59.170 that analysis. And then the leader of this, the kind of director of this organisation 372 00:24:59.170 --> 00:25:03.850 is a woman of colour who had a good analysis, was like, I actually don't think that is 373 00:25:04.010 --> 00:25:08.850 really the best way to understand this. It creates this moment for that leader 374 00:25:08.850 --> 00:25:13.340 where it's like, oh, to push back and say, no, 375 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:16.220 that's not the way we're gonna understand this in this 376 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:21.060 circumstance. Daf, you're actually using that narrative to 377 00:25:21.060 --> 00:25:24.620 exercise power against me that you're not being accountable 378 00:25:24.620 --> 00:25:28.140 for. For that person to do that is this 379 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:34.140 deep challenge because they're gonna, they're gonna feel 380 00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:39.390 a belonging threat. They might even get fired over it. If they can convince the board that this 381 00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:43.790 person is white supremacist, at the very least they're going to feel a severing of 382 00:25:43.790 --> 00:25:48.390 relationships and a stark question to their soul of like, hang on, am I actually 383 00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:52.790 doing this bad thing? It's way easier psychologically to just go along 384 00:25:52.790 --> 00:25:55.990 with. Yeah, you're right, it is white supremacist. It's actually way 385 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:00.910 easier. So then you're in this fascinate. This group is in this fascinating moment where there's people who have 386 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:05.740 less structural power, role based power because their staff, 387 00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:10.460 kind of junior staff, the CEO has more structural power, has more 388 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:15.420 informational power, has more connections to people. But then the people, the staff 389 00:26:15.820 --> 00:26:19.219 are saying that the CEO has way more power because they do have some 390 00:26:19.219 --> 00:26:24.060 forms. But actually what's happening is the staff are exercising the most influential amount of power 391 00:26:24.060 --> 00:26:28.780 by shaping a narrative and using ideology to create a sphere of belonging and then threaten 392 00:26:28.780 --> 00:26:33.710 someone with that. And they're not aware that that's actually exactly 393 00:26:33.710 --> 00:26:38.550 how they're using power because they're so convinced the other person is the person who has power over 394 00:26:38.550 --> 00:26:41.270 them. Right. So. And that's what I mean by like the complexity and 395 00:26:41.270 --> 00:26:45.870 clarity. It's like all of it's happening all at the same 396 00:26:45.870 --> 00:26:50.630 time. And then they're in a room and they're. And we're having a meeting and we're trying to figure out what the 397 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:55.430 budget's gonna be and how are we gonna talk to each other. How are we gonna actually then move forward 398 00:26:55.510 --> 00:26:57.750 given all of that swirl of dynamics? 399 00:26:57.830 --> 00:27:02.610 It's fascinating. I'm. This is a great perspective on a dynamic I 400 00:27:02.610 --> 00:27:07.570 probably hadn't appreciated the collective power versus the individual power and the 401 00:27:07.570 --> 00:27:11.170