WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:12.344 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations 2 00:00:12.344 --> 00:00:17.241 that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey 3 00:00:17.241 --> 00:00:22.224 of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal 4 00:00:22.224 --> 00:00:26.770 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 5 00:00:26.770 --> 00:00:30.354 world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but 6 00:00:30.354 --> 00:00:34.726 thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 7 00:00:34.726 --> 00:00:39.272 challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep 8 00:00:39.272 --> 00:00:44.044 within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your 9 00:00:44.044 --> 00:00:48.823 morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 10 00:00:48.823 --> 00:00:53.513 reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be 11 00:00:53.513 --> 00:00:56.670 part of the conversation too. Reach out to 12 00:00:56.670 --> 00:01:01.539 Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or 13 00:01:01.539 --> 00:01:05.687 to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle 14 00:01:05.687 --> 00:01:10.288 in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 15 00:01:10.288 --> 00:01:10.829 Bites. 16 00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:20.810 And today is episode 227 with the title 17 00:01:21.610 --> 00:01:26.290 Clarity as Belongings Foundation. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to 18 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:31.250 welcome Lynnae Brown. Lynnae is a consultant, trainer and speaker who 19 00:01:31.250 --> 00:01:35.689 helps people and teams use Clarity to make work easier to understand, 20 00:01:36.330 --> 00:01:40.970 to navigate and sustain. It is grounded in the belief that when people 21 00:01:41.050 --> 00:01:45.720 understand how their work belongs, they can feel more secure that they 22 00:01:45.720 --> 00:01:50.640 belong to. When asked Lynnae to describe her superpower, she said that 23 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:55.400 it is finding the shape inside the blob, taking something that 24 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.000 people feel yet can't yet name and giving it enough edges 25 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.360 that they can finally understand it, talk about it and work with 26 00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:07.200 it. Hello, Lynnae . Welcome to the show. 27 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.320 Thank you, Joanne. Thanks for having me. It's lovely to be here. 28 00:02:11.609 --> 00:02:15.089 Absolute pleasure. I've loved having a chat with you before we push the record 29 00:02:15.089 --> 00:02:18.449 button. And whereabouts in the world are you 30 00:02:18.449 --> 00:02:18.729 based? 31 00:02:19.529 --> 00:02:22.009 I'm in Western Massachusetts, United States. 32 00:02:23.209 --> 00:02:25.929 Western Massachusetts. My geography of the state is 33 00:02:27.369 --> 00:02:30.409 mediocre. So whereabouts is Massachusetts relative to the 34 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:30.649 world? 35 00:02:31.129 --> 00:02:34.809 So it's in. The first. Was the first of the 13 36 00:02:34.809 --> 00:02:39.209 colonies. So in the northeast part of the United States, we're right between 37 00:02:39.690 --> 00:02:44.610 Connecticut, Delaware, Rhode Island. Between and above us is Maine, New 38 00:02:44.610 --> 00:02:47.530 Hampshire, Vermont. Yeah. 39 00:02:47.610 --> 00:02:52.450 Right. Okay. So you're. Before it gets too cold, you're in that kind of middle zone, are 40 00:02:52.450 --> 00:02:52.730 you? 41 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:56.210 Yes. Yeah. I mean, it does get cold where we are. We have some vicious 42 00:02:56.210 --> 00:02:56.730 winters. 43 00:02:57.770 --> 00:03:00.810 Right. So you're halfway between. Between 44 00:03:02.490 --> 00:03:05.130 Washington D.C. and Canada. Are you some 45 00:03:05.210 --> 00:03:05.770 somewhere? 46 00:03:05.770 --> 00:03:08.090 Guess so, yes. Okay. You could say that. Yeah. 47 00:03:08.890 --> 00:03:11.690 I'm just. My. My knowledge of the states 48 00:03:11.690 --> 00:03:14.090 is. I. I've been to New York, I've been to 49 00:03:14.090 --> 00:03:14.770 California. 50 00:03:15.010 --> 00:03:15.650 Okay. 51 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:19.294 I've been to both San Francisco and LA and around that sort of 52 00:03:19.294 --> 00:03:22.748 area. San Diego and I've been to Florida, but I've not done a lot else 53 00:03:22.748 --> 00:03:27.619 really. So my knowledge of the States. Is. It's probably the same as your detailed knowledge of 54 00:03:27.619 --> 00:03:28.050 Europe. 55 00:03:28.370 --> 00:03:29.090 Exactly. 56 00:03:29.170 --> 00:03:30.490 You know, roughly where the bits are. 57 00:03:30.490 --> 00:03:35.250 But yeah, yeah, because we're. Then the closest you. You've been to me is New York, because we're 58 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:37.840 not. We're about two and a half hours away from New York City now. 59 00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:41.520 Right, okay. So you're not too far from New York State then? 60 00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:42.800 No, not at all. 61 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.769 Cool. Right. Okay, I'm with you now. Okay. Yeah, 62 00:03:46.769 --> 00:03:49.951 yeah. I remember having an emergency landing in Gander 63 00:03:49.951 --> 00:03:52.858 once. Newfoundland. I was flying in. I was going to 64 00:03:52.858 --> 00:03:55.904 Miami. No, no, I was actually going to the Bahamas via 65 00:03:55.904 --> 00:03:59.574 Miami. And we were over the Atlantic and then the pilot came onto 66 00:03:59.574 --> 00:04:04.490 the. On the radio and said, strap yourselves in, put your tray tables up, get rid of all 67 00:04:04.490 --> 00:04:06.981 your food. We're gonna have to do emergency 68 00:04:06.981 --> 00:04:10.441 landing. Someone's having a heart attack or something like 69 00:04:10.441 --> 00:04:13.830 that. So we ended up emergency landing in Newfoundland and 70 00:04:13.830 --> 00:04:18.605 Gander. And if you've ever been there. But it's basically a rock tundra and we're on 71 00:04:18.605 --> 00:04:21.788 this Runway and just. There's nothing around you, just 72 00:04:21.788 --> 00:04:26.633 snow. And we were stuck on this Runway for something like two and a half hours because 73 00:04:26.633 --> 00:04:31.340 the plane turned all the engines off. It got really hot in there and it was like they 74 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:36.184 didn't serve any food or drink. It was. It was awful. Anyway, eventually took off and 75 00:04:36.184 --> 00:04:40.198 scary and then I ended up in Miami and it was even hotter and stickier in 76 00:04:40.198 --> 00:04:43.104 Miami. So, yeah, Newfoundland wasn't so bad after 77 00:04:43.104 --> 00:04:47.116 all. So, yeah, that's a. That's my emergency landing in Newfoundland 78 00:04:47.116 --> 00:04:47.530 story. 79 00:04:48.010 --> 00:04:48.810 My goodness. 80 00:04:49.690 --> 00:04:53.199 Many, many years ago. So that sounds very scary we're talking 81 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:56.363 about. I mean, for those of you listening, you can't see 82 00:04:56.363 --> 00:04:59.940 this. I appreciate, but Nana's got a fantastic, very striking 83 00:04:59.940 --> 00:05:04.346 photo. What, sorry? Picture of a. Of a. I guess an African elephant on the wall 84 00:05:04.346 --> 00:05:07.300 behind. Behind you. So what's the story on that one? 85 00:05:08.260 --> 00:05:11.607 Yes. So I got this painting in an outdoor market in Nairobi, 86 00:05:11.607 --> 00:05:15.023 Kenya. I was there back in 2019 during a safari. I was on Masai 87 00:05:15.023 --> 00:05:18.576 Mara. And so we went to a market one afternoon and I just saw this 88 00:05:18.576 --> 00:05:23.358 elephant. I love elephants in general. I think they're the symbol of wisdom and also 89 00:05:23.358 --> 00:05:27.934 freedom to some extent. And so when I saw this picture, it looked like it was a real 90 00:05:27.934 --> 00:05:32.717 painting and I just loved it. So I brought it back and framed it and it reminds me of not 91 00:05:32.717 --> 00:05:37.568 Only my adventures but the, the quiet beauty and wisdom of, of elephants and what they 92 00:05:37.568 --> 00:05:42.486 represent. So. And it's colourful, it's a lovely, it has all the colours in the rainbow 93 00:05:42.486 --> 00:05:42.820 in it. 94 00:05:42.820 --> 00:05:47.580 I think it is, it's very stylized and yeah, it's very contemporary looking, 95 00:05:47.580 --> 00:05:49.100 isn't it? Yeah, very striking. Yes. 96 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:49.820 Yes. Thank you. 97 00:05:49.820 --> 00:05:54.100 So Linae, you talk a lot about 98 00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:59.310 belongingness in the workplace, mental health and helping 99 00:05:59.310 --> 00:06:03.830 people navigate this world of work and they're finding their place within 100 00:06:04.310 --> 00:06:09.110 their world of work. So what was the original thing 101 00:06:09.110 --> 00:06:11.350 that sparked you to get into. 102 00:06:11.510 --> 00:06:16.470 I would say it really began over a decade ago when I began 103 00:06:16.470 --> 00:06:20.950 a job at a programme in New York City that helped people in mental health recovery 104 00:06:21.350 --> 00:06:24.110 get back into the workplace and work as what's called peer 105 00:06:24.110 --> 00:06:29.070 supporters. A peer supporter is just somebody with lived experience and a certain marginalised experience and 106 00:06:29.070 --> 00:06:34.010 they work in the system to help other people in their own recovery process. The people that I worked with had mental health 107 00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:38.450 conditions. They also had experiences like substance use or some people had 108 00:06:38.450 --> 00:06:43.370 incarceration histories, things like that. And so the programme I was a part of was training people to go into 109 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:46.490 the workplace and how to use that lived experience to help other 110 00:06:46.490 --> 00:06:50.770 people. So I was helping people become, from, go from being a service user to a service provider 111 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:56.090 and at the same time knowing that folks had emotional vulnerabilities like 112 00:06:56.090 --> 00:07:01.040 how, how I like to see it as a mental health condition to something to have to be more aware of, you have to be 113 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.080 a little bit more deliberate in taking care of yourself if you have a mental health, if you, if you have mental health 114 00:07:05.400 --> 00:07:10.280 challenges. I don't know how to say it anymore, how to say it anymore. But, but if you experience that sort of vulnerability, you have to take 115 00:07:10.280 --> 00:07:15.120 care of yourself a little bit more intensely than maybe someone else who doesn't. And so when, when I 116 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:20.040 was there in this particular job, one of the job, one of the, my, what do you call it, mandates 117 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:25.000 when I first got the job was to figure out, build a philosophy 118 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.720 around the training. There was a 400 hour training and then a 400 hour classroom training 119 00:07:29.960 --> 00:07:33.980 and then people would go on an internship somewh York City and then we'd help them get a job at the 120 00:07:33.980 --> 00:07:38.900 end. So my job was about taking those 400 hours of training and somehow putting it together 121 00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:43.500 and reformulating it and putting it on paper for the programme to be replicated in another 122 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:48.100 country. And so that was my job at the time to figure out, okay, not only do I have to like figure out 123 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:52.300 how we're going to do this programme now that had been around for like 15 years 124 00:07:52.300 --> 00:07:55.500 beforehand. Like, it wasn't like it was, it was new, it wasn't, but it wasn't on 125 00:07:55.500 --> 00:08:00.450 paper. And also had the extra, what do you call it, like, mandate to be able to 126 00:08:00.450 --> 00:08:03.250 say, okay, these people in Netherlands also wanted to have a version of the 127 00:08:03.250 --> 00:08:06.930 programme. And so I had kind of a couple pressures at me to try to figure out how this 128 00:08:06.930 --> 00:08:11.450 pro. How this training programme can go. And so as I was helping, 129 00:08:11.770 --> 00:08:15.690 like, really refine the training, I had to think about some workplaces 130 00:08:16.330 --> 00:08:21.170 differently than maybe somebody else did. Because here we are, people who, with marginalised experiences, people who 131 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:24.510 have experiences that other people will have stigma around, 132 00:08:24.910 --> 00:08:29.630 right? So these folks are going into workplaces with experiences that other people would 133 00:08:29.630 --> 00:08:34.310 stigmatise. And, and so, so for instance, if you have a mental health problem, people think, oh, you know, you have, you're 134 00:08:34.310 --> 00:08:39.270 emotional, you're off the, you're off the rails, or, you know, you don't know how to regulate yourself or all 135 00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:44.150 these other stigmas that go with mental health. And so I had to think people 136 00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:47.790 going to workplace, like, how can they show up and do their jobs and feel like they 137 00:08:47.790 --> 00:08:52.600 belonged? And. And workplaces that maybe not, maybe that, but weren't really 138 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:57.040 set up for them, you know, because most workplaces aren't really set up for people who have marginalised 139 00:08:57.040 --> 00:09:01.960 experiences like that. And so as we were developing the training and 140 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:06.880 I was getting more feedback from people and their internships and what was happening at work, at, in 141 00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:11.800 their actual internships, people were saying that, well, I got to the job and they don't even know what I'm supposed 142 00:09:11.800 --> 00:09:15.120 to be doing. They hired us as peer support workers, but they haven't 143 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:19.800 ex. You know, they don't seem to know what to do with us. So then people were talking about, well, do I even belong 144 00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:24.420 here? Like, what am I supposed to do? If they don't even know what to do with me here, then how do I belong 145 00:09:24.420 --> 00:09:27.900 here? And so that's what got me thinking more and more about this issue of belonging and 146 00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:32.780 inclusion. That from that perspective, that sort of thinking that, you know, yeah, it's like part of 147 00:09:32.780 --> 00:09:37.740 belonging has to be that your work belong, like, like that's the reason you're there, that you're clear 148 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:42.620 about what your role is, who you're serving, who you affect, how your 149 00:09:42.620 --> 00:09:47.490 job fits into the larger organisation and what mission does it fulfil, who do you affect, who affects 150 00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:51.370 you? These are all, like, ideas around figuring out if your Work belongs 151 00:09:51.370 --> 00:09:56.050 to. Belongs at all. Because if your work doesn't belong, then it just makes sense that you would 152 00:09:56.050 --> 00:09:59.690 wonder if you did. So that's how I started thinking about things like that, that 153 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:03.970 belonging. In that perspective, how do you, how 154 00:10:03.970 --> 00:10:08.690 do you describe what belonging is? It's quite nebulous, 155 00:10:08.690 --> 00:10:10.570 isn't it? What is belonging? 156 00:10:10.570 --> 00:10:13.890 Well, it's so funny because you asked that. Cause the first thing I thought was what Brene Brown would 157 00:10:13.890 --> 00:10:18.420 say. So. But I think it's just the idea that you can be yourself 158 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:22.060 and your personhood is part of something 159 00:10:22.060 --> 00:10:26.980 larger. Right. Just something that's. And you're comfortable in the situation and you 160 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:31.979 can be yourself and you don't have to worry about being something else. I mean, I think we, we talk about the difference between belonging 161 00:10:31.979 --> 00:10:36.780 and fitting in. Fitting in is when you over adapt right to the situation and you're not really 162 00:10:36.780 --> 00:10:41.700 yourself, you're just trying to do what everyone else is doing. Belonging is you're able to be yourself and be comfortable and everyone's cool 163 00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:45.320 with it. I mean that's the basic like, you know, simplifies or 164 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:45.440 something. 165 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.600 Yeah, fitting in. You're having to change yourself to fit into someone else's square or box or 166 00:10:50.800 --> 00:10:53.600 the box is there for you, ready to go, isn't it? It's 167 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:55.600 exactly. Slots right in. 168 00:10:55.760 --> 00:10:57.560 Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. 169 00:10:57.560 --> 00:11:02.141 It's. I, I always find the word belonging, it's, it's really hard to put your 170 00:11:02.141 --> 00:11:05.486 finger on what makes or what creates that, that sense of 171 00:11:05.486 --> 00:11:08.540 belonging. It's very, very sort of ethereal, sort 172 00:11:08.540 --> 00:11:13.265 of. You can't always put your finger on it. But you know when you don't, you know 173 00:11:13.265 --> 00:11:18.138 when you don't belong, you know, you know when you don't fit, you know when you're 174 00:11:18.138 --> 00:11:23.010 having to mask, cover or crow by yourself into a space, but you couldn't actually 175 00:11:23.010 --> 00:11:26.937 say, well, what is the magic sauce? But I know when I haven't got it 176 00:11:26.937 --> 00:11:27.370 right. 177 00:11:27.370 --> 00:11:32.010 Exactly right. If you know it, you know it. When you, when you feel like you're out, out of 178 00:11:32.090 --> 00:11:36.930 sorts, you definitely know you don't belong. And I would say it's interesting when you saw, when you talked about 179 00:11:36.930 --> 00:11:41.670 that, I was thinking about some people I was working, they were working at a job that had belonging 180 00:11:41.670 --> 00:11:46.550 inclusion on the website. And yet their particular boss, their supervisor, was actually 181 00:11:46.550 --> 00:11:51.470 quite abusive and micromanaging and very undermining for 182 00:11:51.470 --> 00:11:55.590 the work they were doing. And I just thought, see that to me right there is 183 00:11:56.630 --> 00:11:59.590 that lack, that lack of trust undermines belonging. 184 00:11:59.750 --> 00:12:02.990 Right. So you can't Belong. If you don't trust, you can't 185 00:12:02.990 --> 00:12:07.870 belong. If you can say anything you want in an organisation like we, we have belonging, inclusion, everyone's welcome 186 00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:12.690 here. But if you have people in power who are misusing that power so that people 187 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:17.330 don't feel like they belong and they. And they feel afraid and they free, judged, 188 00:12:18.450 --> 00:12:23.290 then the whole belonging thing doesn't work. So that's why I think it's interesting that you bring it up, that belonging is 189 00:12:23.290 --> 00:12:26.130 really hard to put your finger on because you definitely know when you don't 190 00:12:26.130 --> 00:12:27.610 belong. You definitely feel it when you do. 191 00:12:27.610 --> 00:12:30.930 And you can't prescribe it to somebody. Can you say you will belong 192 00:12:30.930 --> 00:12:33.930 here? You know, we have put everything in place for you to 193 00:12:33.930 --> 00:12:37.170 belong. It's not that kind of contract really, is it? It's 194 00:12:37.170 --> 00:12:41.780 a. The environment exists, the culture exists, the values exist, the people 195 00:12:41.780 --> 00:12:46.460 exist. And then do you slot into that in a 196 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:51.380 belonging way? Or is that. Or is there friction? There's rough edges, there's things 197 00:12:51.380 --> 00:12:55.700 that don't quite work and that's it. It's something I have to warm into, isn't 198 00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:55.940 it? 199 00:12:56.340 --> 00:12:59.100 Yeah. And that's the thing about work, it's the workplace in 200 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:03.060 general. It's when you start getting into belonging, you're talking about 201 00:13:04.380 --> 00:13:09.180 a sense of being valued, a personal worth. And I always, for me, I always found it very dangerous for 202 00:13:09.180 --> 00:13:12.140 people to expect workplaces to be able to do 203 00:13:12.140 --> 00:13:16.900 that. Well, I don't think, again, this is just my opinion about the whole belonging inclusion 204 00:13:16.900 --> 00:13:21.740 issue is like, I don't think that a lot of workplaces do belonging very 205 00:13:21.740 --> 00:13:26.500 well because belonging has multifacets to it when it comes to personal value and personal 206 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:30.140 worth, making people feel like they're personally valued at the 207 00:13:30.140 --> 00:13:35.090 workplace. And that's why I think the basis of belonging at work needs to be the work itself, that, 208 00:13:35.090 --> 00:13:38.730 you know your job fits, you know that the work you're doing 209 00:13:38.730 --> 00:13:43.090 matters. You know how if you didn't do your job, if you didn't show up, how that would affect the 210 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:47.970 company. I think that. That when your job is very clear and when you're very clear about what your job 211 00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:52.850 is and how it's connected to other people in the organisation, when you can say, I do this 212 00:13:52.850 --> 00:13:57.490 and this is the outcome and the outcome is connected to the mission and you can see 213 00:13:57.490 --> 00:14:02.350 your. What I call coordinates and like, like how you're. Where you are is actually connected to 214 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:07.270 everything else in the organisation. To me, that's the most powerful belonging there is at work anyway, 215 00:14:07.510 --> 00:14:12.470 because then, you know your Work matters. It's connected, it 216 00:14:12.470 --> 00:14:17.030 makes sense. You know, where you begin and where you end. It's like you're a piece of a 217 00:14:17.030 --> 00:14:17.390 puzzle. 218 00:14:17.390 --> 00:14:22.281 There's that famous anecdotal story. Whether it's true or not about the janitor 219 00:14:22.281 --> 00:14:25.785 working at NASA isn't there? And someone says, what do you 220 00:14:25.785 --> 00:14:29.070 do? He says, I help put people on the moon. That's where 221 00:14:29.070 --> 00:14:33.158 you. You're bigger than your role. You're part of the mission of the 222 00:14:33.158 --> 00:14:36.954 organisation. Not just here to sweep the floor, to restock the 223 00:14:36.954 --> 00:14:40.385 toilets. You're here to help people, to put people on the 224 00:14:40.385 --> 00:14:44.765 moon. I think that's where you truly align with the mission values of the 225 00:14:44.765 --> 00:14:47.539 organisation, your team, the people you work 226 00:14:47.539 --> 00:14:50.313 with. I'm not just an accountant, I'm not just 227 00:14:50.313 --> 00:14:53.690 this. I. My part of the company is to help us do 228 00:14:53.690 --> 00:14:53.970 this. 229 00:14:54.680 --> 00:14:58.520 That's exactly right. And especially even the example that you gave Ron, the 230 00:14:58.520 --> 00:15:03.200 janitor. I don't just. He doesn't just, you know, clean floors and wash toilets because quite 231 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.160 frankly, if he didn't, if no one did, that'd be a problem for everyone who worked 232 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:10.460 there. So all of it matters. All of it. All the pieces of a company do 233 00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:13.040 matter. And it's important, I think, as if you have a 234 00:15:13.040 --> 00:15:17.960 belonging. If you have a belonging mission is that people know that their role matters, that their 235 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:21.740 role fits, that there's no sense of, like you can just be getting rid of at any 236 00:15:21.740 --> 00:15:25.460 point. And I think that's also brings me to a larger issue of what I'm seeing 237 00:15:25.460 --> 00:15:30.260 now. Is that why I find belonging really kind of a gnarly situation in terms of work, is that we're 238 00:15:30.260 --> 00:15:34.760 seeing, at least in the States, we're seeing companies lay people off for profit, not even 239 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:39.560 performance reasons anymore. Right. It's not even that people are being laid off because their 240 00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:42.560 jobs don't. Their job itself doesn't matter. They did a poor 241 00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:47.540 job. You know, you have companies who are saying, no, we need more profit, so we're going to get rid of 242 00:15:47.540 --> 00:15:51.200 all these people. And you're like, wait a second. Like, this doesn't make 243 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:56.180 any. This just doesn't make any sense. And so I think now, especially, more than anything, it really 244 00:15:56.180 --> 00:15:59.960 helps people if they know that their job really matters, to help them belong 245 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:00.560 someplace. 246 00:16:00.590 --> 00:16:04.710 Do you think in, in. In the modern world of work, we have to have 247 00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:08.750 belonging? Because. Let me. Let me just throw something out there that work 248 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:13.030 is. Work can be more transactional. You do. You need to have a belongingness with a 249 00:16:13.030 --> 00:16:15.910 company. If you're A. I don't know, an Uber driver, for 250 00:16:15.910 --> 00:16:20.240 example. Do you need to feel belonging with Uber? Do you have to have that, that 251 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:24.880 relationship? You know, we, we work remotely. I remember seeing, especially 252 00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:29.200 during COVID times or big organisation was saying, well, you have to come back to the 253 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.800 office. We want to create this culture. We are cultures, we all belong, we all get 254 00:16:32.800 --> 00:16:36.079 together. I thought, well, do I need your 255 00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:37.880 culture? Do I need that? 256 00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:39.080 Yeah. 257 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:43.920 Why can't I have my family, my community, my neighbours, my, my, my 258 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:47.600 sports club, the things I do locally? Surely that's my 259 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:51.960 belonging. That's my culture, my value, my home life. Work is 260 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.440 transactional. Work is there to pay me, work is there to enable me to have my home 261 00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:00.360 life. And what I always said to people was, I want my culture to 262 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.840 be like my pension. I can take it with me when I change 263 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:08.800 companies. I don't need to have all my belongings invested in you 264 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:13.730 as a company. I want to have my belongingness vested in me and that way I can invest in 265 00:17:13.730 --> 00:17:18.570 it across career roles. And as long as the organisation I work for 266 00:17:19.050 --> 00:17:23.570 allows me to pursue my home life belonging, then it becomes more 267 00:17:23.570 --> 00:17:25.690 transactional. Is there a problem with that? 268 00:17:25.690 --> 00:17:29.090 You are singing my song, Joanne. Really? Because I really think this is the future of 269 00:17:29.090 --> 00:17:32.090 workplace. If we just did that, life would be so much better for everyone 270 00:17:32.330 --> 00:17:37.130 involved. Sometimes I think that we even have the belonging conversation is because 271 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:41.940 so many workplaces expect so many hours and such devotion from 272 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:46.740 people to their company, not just the job, but devotion to the agency, the company and hours and hours 273 00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:51.705 of work that people will automatically say, well, If I'm here 10 hours or 15 hours, you know, 10, 10, 274 00:17:51.748 --> 00:17:56.700 15 hours a day, then it makes sense that I would have friends here, that I'll expect a little bit more because I spend so 275 00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:01.540 much time here. And I think that's kind of like the crux of why people feel like they need that, that 276 00:18:01.540 --> 00:18:06.460 overall emotional belonging. It's because if you spend so much time doing something, you're expected to be 277 00:18:06.460 --> 00:18:09.490 devoted to something. Of course you're gonna want something more than a paycheck and 278 00:18:09.490 --> 00:18:14.290 benefits. You're going to want some sense of value, personal value, because that's where you spend most of your 279 00:18:14.290 --> 00:18:18.810 time. And it would be really interesting if workplaces decided to say, 280 00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:22.050 okay, that's not our role. Our role is not to help you belong as a human 281 00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:26.410 being. Our role is, we have this thing we're trying to do, a service, a product we're 282 00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:31.330 making. We have this job that was part of helping us do that we hire you to do that job, 283 00:18:31.330 --> 00:18:34.810 we keep that job at reasonable hours, you know, six, seven hours a 284 00:18:34.810 --> 00:18:39.360 day. We have, give you fair pay, fair compensation, you know where your job 285 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:43.200 begins, where it ends. That's what's, what's important to us. You have time off to go live your 286 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:48.080 life. We, when you leave for the day, we hope you go live your life and have the life 287 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:52.680 you want to have. So when you come back here, you, you come on a full tank and you're able to focus on the work we need you to 288 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:57.480 do. I think that's more honest and I think that's more straightforward and I think it would, would be more beneficial to 289 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:02.280 everyone if we did things that way. And, and that the only belonging you have to worry about is your actual job 290 00:19:02.280 --> 00:19:05.690 itself. Does your work matter to the company and to what's happening, then you're 291 00:19:05.690 --> 00:19:10.530 good. And as long as you do that job, you're good. I think many people would be very happy working that 292 00:19:10.530 --> 00:19:14.730 way. I know I would be. I think what makes work really challenging is, you know, 293 00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:19.689 you. And I've experienced this in my lived experience too, where I'm doing the job itself, the job, the 294 00:19:19.689 --> 00:19:24.490 job is fine. But then you have people saying, well, you're not being friendly, you don't seem like a team 295 00:19:24.490 --> 00:19:29.410 player. You didn't come out with us when we did this thing and you didn't make me feel welcome and you didn't, you know, 296 00:19:29.410 --> 00:19:34.290 making these sort of personal jabs about how I showed up personally when I was being 297 00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:38.630 quite polite and quite, quite competent in my job. But I didn't like playing, 298 00:19:39.030 --> 00:19:43.990 I didn't like the politics of the job and, and having to spend time, you know, 299 00:19:43.990 --> 00:19:48.390 wondering if, if my boss liked me or not. I just don't think, I think all of those things can make 300 00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:51.630 jobs really, really dodgy and really, really hard to work 301 00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:56.430 in. I think. And actually, if you look at all of the different reasons why people leave jobs or don't like their jobs, 302 00:19:56.430 --> 00:20:01.390 there's always something about that, you know, it's always something like toxic bosses, moving gold posts, the 303 00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:06.150 politics of workplaces, things like that. It would be really great if we could just have workplaces where 304 00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:11.130 we, we did them and then we left at 5 o' clock or whatever to go live 305 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:12.770 our lives. That'd be great. 306 00:20:12.770 --> 00:20:17.687 And when you've done your job, you get five stars or four stars and you can rate your 307 00:20:17.687 --> 00:20:21.231 boss as well. So your boss gets three stars today, I get four 308 00:20:21.231 --> 00:20:25.426 stars. And we're all trying to aim for the five star sort of thing, more 309 00:20:25.426 --> 00:20:28.681 transactional in our kind of evaluation. But there's 310 00:20:28.681 --> 00:20:33.310 a. I mean, you've probably come across things like the Herzberg's two factor 311 00:20:33.310 --> 00:20:37.650 theory and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I always think there's this 312 00:20:37.650 --> 00:20:42.497 intersection between Maslow and Herzberg, where you've got the hygiene, if you 313 00:20:42.497 --> 00:20:47.271 like, and the motivation of Herzberg. And I think belonging happens where your 314 00:20:47.271 --> 00:20:50.886 hygiene is met. So there's nothing here detracting from the 315 00:20:50.886 --> 00:20:55.877 organisations. I'm being paid well, I'm being treated with respect, I understand 316 00:20:55.877 --> 00:20:59.133 what's expected of me. I get credit for where credit's 317 00:20:59.133 --> 00:21:02.099 due. What I do is achievable. It's within my skill 318 00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:07.090 set. I feel challenged, all those kind of things. The people around me look after me 319 00:21:07.090 --> 00:21:11.429 and that's. I always think that's kind of the EDI, that's the diversity, 320 00:21:11.429 --> 00:21:16.418 inclusion, equity, basically making sure that the environment I come into, I feel 321 00:21:16.418 --> 00:21:20.468 safe in psychological safety for want of a better way of describing 322 00:21:20.468 --> 00:21:25.458 it. And provided that's met, that's belonging. I've got the basics, I don't have to 323 00:21:25.458 --> 00:21:30.376 look over my shoulder. The motivation side, the rah rah, the sort of, all the other 324 00:21:30.376 --> 00:21:33.992 stuff we can add on top. But many organisations confuse this 325 00:21:33.992 --> 00:21:38.984 bit. So I'm pointing my hand to the podcast, the motivation side, without actually 326 00:21:38.984 --> 00:21:43.613 getting the real basics right. And that, that's, that's the struggle, isn't 327 00:21:43.613 --> 00:21:43.830 it? 328 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.640 That's it. And that's what we found when I was working with all our folks when they were, you know, having internships 329 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:53.680 in the workplace, they weren't clear about what their job was, they weren't clear about what they were, what, what 330 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.240 they were supposed to do, were not supposed to do. And, and then they had, they had people, 331 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.640 their supervisors were getting them to do jobs that had nothing to do with what they were 332 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:06.460 doing. They just wanted them to fill in where, where, you know, where help was needed, as opposed to 333 00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:11.060 actually using their profession as peer support workers. And so when you start doing all that, 334 00:22:11.620 --> 00:22:16.580 when you're not even clear what your job is and you have people who aren't even clear about what your job is and making you do things that you 335 00:22:16.580 --> 00:22:19.939 weren't hired to do. But, but they're having pizza parties, 336 00:22:19.939 --> 00:22:22.780 right? We had a pizza party every week. Those pizza parties don't mean 337 00:22:22.780 --> 00:22:27.620 anything. They don't have. You belong if the rest of the week you were scurrying, trying to figure out what 338 00:22:27.620 --> 00:22:28.420 you're supposed to be doing. 339 00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:32.590 So, yeah, yeah. And I think people lose sight of that sometimes because 340 00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:38.310 it's easy to throw money at a problem. It's easy to throw these perceived benefits, these 341 00:22:38.310 --> 00:22:43.190 motivational things, without really get to the ground of what the challenges are 342 00:22:43.190 --> 00:22:47.990 and the friction and the challenging conversation you have to have. And I think you said it right at the 343 00:22:47.990 --> 00:22:52.230 beginning, one of the fundamentals is trust. Can I trust me with 344 00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:55.310 you? Will you break me or will you enhance 345 00:22:55.310 --> 00:23:00.100 me? And I think that's fundamentally part of part of belonging, which you put your net finger on very 346 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:01.500 first part of the conversation. 347 00:23:01.580 --> 00:23:05.900 Absolutely. And this is why I don't think many workplaces get belonging, really get 348 00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:10.780 belonging really well, because when people are put in power in management positions, they're not always 349 00:23:10.780 --> 00:23:15.340 assessed about their ability to help people feel like they belong. They're going to be assessed for other things and other 350 00:23:15.340 --> 00:23:19.220 competencies, and yet they're expected to somehow be part of the belonging 351 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:22.580 conversation. But they're not held accountable. Many aren't held accountable for people to 352 00:23:22.580 --> 00:23:27.450 belong. So that's why I think that the whole belonging, the larger part of it, the, the 353 00:23:27.530 --> 00:23:31.090 helping people feel like they matter, like they matter in a workplace, I think 354 00:23:31.090 --> 00:23:34.370 is. Is not achievable, as achievable as making sure their work 355 00:23:34.370 --> 00:23:39.330 matters. And I love this idea of what you're talking about before is like helping work be more transactional and make it more clear 356 00:23:39.330 --> 00:23:43.450 that you're doing this, we're giving you this, and then you, then you, you know, you leave at the end of the 357 00:23:43.450 --> 00:23:47.930 day. I think that's a much cleaner break. What would get in the way of us changing all of 358 00:23:47.930 --> 00:23:52.690 that? Like, that's one of the things I think about a lot is like, what would it take for people to, for us to have a 359 00:23:52.690 --> 00:23:57.440 workplace like that? And a couple of things I think about, because, you know, there's plenty of 360 00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:02.560 trainings about leadership and belonging, but when you do the surveys, 361 00:24:02.560 --> 00:24:07.320 you're finding people feel like they don't belong. And so my thing is the people in 362 00:24:07.320 --> 00:24:11.680 power who have the power to help people belong, some of them aren't doing the 363 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.200 work. They're not doing the work helping people belong. And 364 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:21.880 I'm not sure why. I'd love to hear what you think about this too, but when I think 365 00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:26.640 about my own, my own workplace, I kind of think about how part of belonging and 366 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:31.260 trust is about competence in your role. And I think people in power 367 00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:36.300 who don't have as much competency as maybe they should have are trying 368 00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:40.780 harder to keep their own power as opposed to actually gaining competency. And I think, 369 00:24:41.260 --> 00:24:46.020 like, that's part of what gets in the way of having a workplace that's very clear and very 370 00:24:46.020 --> 00:24:50.420 structured is that it would require people to be competent at their jobs and everyone to be clear and 371 00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:53.980 competent. And sometimes I don't think there are people empowered who 372 00:24:54.220 --> 00:24:57.500 to. That would kind of not be to their benefit. I don't 373 00:24:57.500 --> 00:24:58.220 know. What do you think? 374 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:03.020 Yeah, I have lots of conversations with people around imposter syndrome and many 375 00:25:03.020 --> 00:25:07.980 people out there. I'm not saying everybody, many people out there are faking it till they make 376 00:25:07.980 --> 00:25:11.100 it. They're struggling. They're hoping they're not going to get caught 377 00:25:11.100 --> 00:25:15.660 out. I've been in rooms where I've put my hand in the air and said, 378 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:20.500 well, I feel like an imposter. I feel like I'm struggling. And almost like that gives permission 379 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:23.400 to the entire room. Me too. And me. And 380 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:27.480 me. Yes, I think, Yes, I think, I think we're all, all looking for 381 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:31.240 validation. We're all looking for gratification. We're all looking to be told on a good 382 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:36.200 job. We're all looking for these things and chasing it. And the managers, you know, we talk about our 383 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:41.120 managers competent, our managers good at what they do. They're probably desperate to be seen as 384 00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:45.320 a good manager. So they're trying hard to do this and that. They've got their 385 00:25:46.040 --> 00:25:50.200 manager imposing rules, whereas they're having to filter down and push stuff back 386 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.360 up. And they just want to. I just want to. I just, I just want everyone to like 387 00:25:54.360 --> 00:25:59.230 me. And it's really hard because you go back to that again, the point you made earlier about 388 00:25:59.230 --> 00:26:03.710 fitting in. Everybody is trying to crowbar themselves into these little boxes 389 00:26:04.270 --> 00:26:08.230 to be the person they're supposed to be and to each 390 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:13.150 other. And every interaction you have is different. So I've got to be 15 people to 391 00:26:13.150 --> 00:26:17.990 15 different ways of being to 15 different things. And managers come home 392 00:26:17.990 --> 00:26:21.630 exhausted, go, I can't win. Wish everyone would just be 393 00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:21.990 better. 394 00:26:22.550 --> 00:26:26.750 You know what? And I do. Exactly, I know exactly what you're talking about because I was actually middle 395 00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:31.630 management. So I got it from every. All ends. I had to answer to people above me besides me, 396 00:26:31.630 --> 00:26:34.270 my, my staff, et cetera. So I understand the multiple 397 00:26:34.270 --> 00:26:39.230 pressures. And actually what makes it hard to lead in those situations is 398 00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:41.990 like, you have to be able to be willing to make mistakes in public. 399 00:26:42.390 --> 00:26:47.310 Right? Like, there are plenty of times when I did took a misstep and my staff was like, what the, you know, what did 400 00:26:47.310 --> 00:26:52.070 you say? You weren't Supposed to say that or something to that effect. And I have to like, kind of backpedal, like, oh, no, you're right, you're 401 00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:56.090