WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.288 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:11.288 --> 00:00:14.680 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.680 --> 00:00:18.608 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration 4 00:00:18.608 --> 00:00:22.536 into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.536 --> 00:00:26.374 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes 6 00:00:26.374 --> 00:00:29.856 to create a world? Remember, everyone not only 7 00:00:29.856 --> 00:00:33.786 belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.786 --> 00:00:37.447 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and 9 00:00:37.447 --> 00:00:41.196 share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to 10 00:00:41.196 --> 00:00:45.125 dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:45.125 --> 00:00:48.695 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:48.695 --> 00:00:52.623 reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.623 --> 00:00:56.463 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:56.463 --> 00:01:00.391 joanne.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share 15 00:01:00.391 --> 00:01:04.321 your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your 16 00:01:04.321 --> 00:01:08.161 earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark 17 00:01:08.161 --> 00:01:10.830 of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.630 --> 00:01:19.380 And today is episode 228 with the 19 00:01:19.380 --> 00:01:23.340 title Belonging beyond the Background. And I have 20 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:27.140 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Kate Gaskell. Kate is the 21 00:01:27.140 --> 00:01:30.540 CEO of Flex Legal, a purpose led legal services 22 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:34.460 provider where she heads up the Flex Trainee social mobility 23 00:01:34.460 --> 00:01:38.380 scheme that champions inclusive hiring and brings diverse new 24 00:01:38.380 --> 00:01:42.380 ways of thinking into the legal sector. When I asked Kate 25 00:01:42.380 --> 00:01:45.860 to describe her superpower, she said that it is balancing professional 26 00:01:45.860 --> 00:01:49.750 excellence with holistic mental well being by 27 00:01:49.750 --> 00:01:53.110 drawing on her qualifications as a hypnotherapist, a yoga teacher, 28 00:01:53.750 --> 00:01:57.430 a sound meditation teacher and breath work practitioner to 29 00:01:57.430 --> 00:02:01.270 champion somatic therapy and whole person workplace 30 00:02:01.270 --> 00:02:05.030 wellness. Wow. Hello Kate, welcome to the show. 31 00:02:05.750 --> 00:02:08.750 Hello, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be 32 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:12.070 here. Absolute pleasure. And we were just chatting away in the green room before we 33 00:02:12.070 --> 00:02:15.510 went live that you're one of the closest guests I've had on the show for 34 00:02:15.510 --> 00:02:19.350 a while. Whereabouts in the country are you? I am based in southeast 35 00:02:19.350 --> 00:02:22.510 London. I live down here with my husband and two daughters. 36 00:02:23.710 --> 00:02:27.590 Fabulous. Fantastic. Southeast London. Yeah, I tend to 37 00:02:27.590 --> 00:02:31.230 just drive through that or train through it. I don't tend to stop in. 38 00:02:32.030 --> 00:02:35.230 That's okay. You're very welcome anytime. Very welcome. 39 00:02:36.430 --> 00:02:39.190 We're also talking about the World cup, you know, just to put a bit of 40 00:02:39.190 --> 00:02:43.070 a timestamp on this. We're recording this just in the 41 00:02:43.070 --> 00:02:46.830 middle, I guess the middle, middle part of the World cup where we got out 42 00:02:46.830 --> 00:02:50.750 the group stages and I asked you whether you support England and what did you 43 00:02:50.750 --> 00:02:54.670 say? Well, contrary to what my accent suggests, I was 44 00:02:54.670 --> 00:02:58.470 actually born in Aberdeen. So I was supporting Scotland very 45 00:02:58.630 --> 00:03:01.950 energetically when they were in the beginning parts of the World cup. But now that 46 00:03:01.950 --> 00:03:05.950 they're out I've somewhat lost interest in the remaining stages, but. No, it'll be good 47 00:03:05.950 --> 00:03:09.800 to watch the match on Saturday. Yeah. So you're 48 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.480 not an England fan, but you're not anti England? 49 00:03:13.720 --> 00:03:17.400 I'm certainly not anti England. I mean, I've lived in England for well over 50 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.560 30 years. 35 years. And my children were born here. My children are obviously big 51 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:25.280 England supporters. They're a bit split loyalties when it's England playing Scotland at 52 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.120 anything. But no, I'm certainly not anti. But it was lovely to see Scotland get 53 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.880 a chance on the big stage. It's strange that, isn't it, when we. 54 00:03:32.880 --> 00:03:35.800 I've talked to a lot of people from around the world on this show and 55 00:03:36.600 --> 00:03:40.480 what. How people align with the cultural identity of where they 56 00:03:40.480 --> 00:03:44.160 live now. It doesn't change your 57 00:03:44.160 --> 00:03:47.560 roots where your. Your. Your spiritual home, your, your, 58 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:51.080 Your anchor. And you can live in England for the rest of your life, but 59 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.960 you'll always feel Scottish. Always. I mean, I lived in Scotland for such a 60 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:58.200 small proportion of my life, but I would never 61 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.760 identify as English. Very, very much attached to 62 00:04:02.760 --> 00:04:06.240 my Scottish roots, as you say. So, yeah, I think that that never goes away. 63 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.776 I mean, my, my for obviously 30, 64 00:04:09.864 --> 00:04:13.500 35 years and think she sounds English, but she is incredibly 65 00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:17.340 Glaswegian still. And yeah, it's a very, very strong part of our 66 00:04:17.340 --> 00:04:21.060 identity. Love celebrating Burns Night. So, because, well, I 67 00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:25.060 assume both your parents were Scottish, or at least your mother was. Yeah, that's right. 68 00:04:25.060 --> 00:04:28.900 Both Scottish. Yeah. My dad worked on the oil rigs, which is why 69 00:04:28.900 --> 00:04:32.740 I was born in Aberdeen. So my family, they were. Both my parents 70 00:04:32.740 --> 00:04:36.700 were born just outside Glasgow in a place called Paisley. Town called 71 00:04:36.700 --> 00:04:40.450 Paisley. Yeah. Which. And then we moved up to 72 00:04:40.450 --> 00:04:44.410 Aberdeen and then came down to England when I was just before school age. So. 73 00:04:44.410 --> 00:04:47.530 Been down here a long time. My. My mum's 74 00:04:48.010 --> 00:04:51.970 mum, my maternal grandmother came from east of 75 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:55.930 Edinburgh, that sort of area. Very nice. The place has 76 00:04:56.010 --> 00:04:58.570 jumped out of my head. I can't remember where it is now, but we did 77 00:04:58.650 --> 00:05:02.650 an anthology tour last year and I went up with my mum. My 78 00:05:02.650 --> 00:05:05.690 mum's what, late 80s now, we went up on the train to go and visit 79 00:05:05.690 --> 00:05:09.540 her family graveyards, effectively, and met some 80 00:05:09.540 --> 00:05:13.500 of her. Her second or third cousins that we'd not seen since. Since 81 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:16.860 I got married back in the 80s. And so it's a really good 82 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:21.140 tour and so it reminded me that I'm a quarter Scottish, always 83 00:05:21.140 --> 00:05:25.060 proud of that, but I don't have any kind of anchor to it. It's 84 00:05:25.060 --> 00:05:28.780 just. It's just A thing because I was, I was actually born in Singapore. 85 00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:33.030 Wow. Because my father was in the Navy in the 60s and. And 86 00:05:33.030 --> 00:05:36.910 so it became, that became a thing. But I don't identify as 87 00:05:36.910 --> 00:05:40.830 being Singaporean because my parents are both English and I guess I don't 88 00:05:40.830 --> 00:05:44.550 remember it. Interesting. We did a similar thing a few years ago 89 00:05:44.550 --> 00:05:48.470 with my mum. So she grew up in what's called a tenement building, 90 00:05:49.190 --> 00:05:52.710 like a sort of council flat and it was a two room 91 00:05:52.790 --> 00:05:56.270 dwelling and there's a tenement building in 92 00:05:56.270 --> 00:06:00.230 Glasgow that was owned by a lady who hadn't done any 93 00:06:00.230 --> 00:06:04.150 renovation work or any updating to it since the sort of 60s, I think, 94 00:06:04.150 --> 00:06:07.890 50s. And when she died, Scotland Heritage took it on 95 00:06:07.890 --> 00:06:11.850 as a museum effectively. So we took my mum and 96 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:15.450 my kids up to see it and my kids were wide eyed. 97 00:06:15.450 --> 00:06:19.290 Imagining growing up in a place like that was sort of suspended 98 00:06:19.290 --> 00:06:22.570 in time. So it was very nostalgic for my mum to see it exactly as 99 00:06:22.570 --> 00:06:26.210 it was when she would have been a kid. So for those roots, you know, 100 00:06:26.210 --> 00:06:29.970 I think you say in your, in your bio 101 00:06:29.970 --> 00:06:33.830 that your own journey is from free school meals to being 102 00:06:33.830 --> 00:06:37.190 the first one to attend university and now you're running a 103 00:06:37.510 --> 00:06:41.350 major business and you've got responsibility. Yeah, 104 00:06:41.350 --> 00:06:43.990 the girl from Scotland's done good, you know, so 105 00:06:45.830 --> 00:06:48.470 that's certainly what my mum would say. Yeah. 106 00:06:49.750 --> 00:06:53.710 So how's that journey, if you like, how has that 107 00:06:53.710 --> 00:06:57.710 taught you or about your own sort of self awareness, your 108 00:06:57.710 --> 00:07:01.520 own confidence, your own growth and some of the unspoken rules that 109 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:05.480 tend to hold people back. I mean that's a big question. So 110 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:09.080 yeah, you're right. We moved down to England as I said, just before 111 00:07:09.400 --> 00:07:12.760 I started school and my parents separated 112 00:07:13.640 --> 00:07:17.560 around about that time as well. My dad actually had, was bipolar, 113 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.240 had very difficult mental health issues. So my mum 114 00:07:21.320 --> 00:07:25.320 raised us single handedly. Single parents, single income family. 115 00:07:25.400 --> 00:07:28.920 So as you say, I was on free school meals, very low income, 116 00:07:29.950 --> 00:07:33.830 to some extent. Wasn't necessarily completely aware of that at 117 00:07:33.830 --> 00:07:37.750 the time. You know, you don't really know any different from the environment that 118 00:07:37.750 --> 00:07:40.750 you grow up in and the circumstances you grow up in. But as you get 119 00:07:40.750 --> 00:07:44.590 older you start to become sort of more aware of where you are 120 00:07:44.590 --> 00:07:48.430 in the kind of pecking order of things. So I worked really hard at 121 00:07:48.430 --> 00:07:52.430 school. My mum is a teacher so she is very 122 00:07:52.510 --> 00:07:56.430 invested in education. She didn't get the opportunity to go to university, 123 00:07:56.830 --> 00:08:00.690 although she did a distance learning degree when 124 00:08:00.690 --> 00:08:04.610 she was in her 40s. So she did finally get her degree, just not straight 125 00:08:04.610 --> 00:08:08.250 out of school, so worked really hard at school and then got offered 126 00:08:08.490 --> 00:08:12.330 a place to study law at Oxford. So first in my family to go 127 00:08:12.330 --> 00:08:15.690 to university, and a very unusual university 128 00:08:16.010 --> 00:08:19.770 experience by most measures. And I think that was 129 00:08:19.770 --> 00:08:23.610 probably the moment when I realised very starkly how 130 00:08:24.380 --> 00:08:28.180 different my background was from some, A lot of the other people who were around 131 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:32.060 me. So I feel very strongly that these 132 00:08:32.060 --> 00:08:35.900 unwritten rules that you mentioned are often, you 133 00:08:35.900 --> 00:08:39.660 sort of have to take responsibility for helping people who haven't had 134 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:43.540 the opportunity to be exposed to the unwritten rules and don't even know what the 135 00:08:43.540 --> 00:08:46.620 unwritten rules are. It's really important to 136 00:08:47.260 --> 00:08:51.140 make sure if you do have the. If you've learned. If you've had the opportunity 137 00:08:51.140 --> 00:08:54.100 to learn them and you've been in environments where you have sort of picked them 138 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:57.600 up, that you're sharing all of that with, people are coming behind you in the. 139 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:01.360 In the journey. So that's what's taken me through to where I am now at 140 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.360 Flex Legal. So I started off my career as a practising lawyer in London 141 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.040 and then I went to Australia for a few years, came back to London, then 142 00:09:09.040 --> 00:09:12.920 joined a big legal publishing company and then joined Flex 143 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.960 just as it was launching, or just after it had launched the Flex Trainee Scheme, 144 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.880 which is our social mobility initiative, helping aspiring lawyers from backgrounds like 145 00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:24.690 mine. So, yeah, I feel very passionate about 146 00:09:24.690 --> 00:09:28.610 it. I came across a phrase or a term 147 00:09:28.610 --> 00:09:30.290 called contextual recruitment 148 00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:36.170 a while ago and have you heard of that term? Yes. 149 00:09:36.170 --> 00:09:39.810 Yeah, I'll let you explain it then. Yeah. So contextual recruitment is 150 00:09:39.810 --> 00:09:43.530 putting somebody's CVs and experience into the wider 151 00:09:43.530 --> 00:09:47.050 context of the environment they've grown up in, or the 152 00:09:47.050 --> 00:09:50.930 context of where they have developed that skills and experience. So 153 00:09:50.930 --> 00:09:54.790 I guess, to take a very simple example, if you 154 00:09:54.790 --> 00:09:58.710 have gone to a state school in an underfunded 155 00:09:58.710 --> 00:10:02.550 area and you've achieved a very good set of exam results, 156 00:10:02.790 --> 00:10:06.750 then arguably that's more difficult to do than if you had 157 00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:10.310 gone to a very well funded private school, for example. 158 00:10:10.630 --> 00:10:14.590 So it's about looking at the wider. Rather than just looking at the words on 159 00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:18.510 the CV or the exam results on the piece of paper, it's trying 160 00:10:18.510 --> 00:10:22.230 to look more broadly at the context in which all of that was achieved. 161 00:10:23.210 --> 00:10:26.570 Yeah. The way I look at it is if you. If you went to. If 162 00:10:26.570 --> 00:10:29.090 you came from a certain background, went to a certain school and you got. You 163 00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:33.050 got three Bs, then you performed above expectation. If you went 164 00:10:33.050 --> 00:10:37.010 to. If you had a gifted path and you got three Bs, you 165 00:10:37.010 --> 00:10:40.650 would have underperformed Expectations. So what you're trying to do is 166 00:10:40.810 --> 00:10:44.690 the context there is making sure that you're rewarding people who've 167 00:10:44.690 --> 00:10:48.690 outperformed their programming, if you like. Definitely. And seeing that as 168 00:10:48.690 --> 00:10:52.480 a real value add, as a. A bit of grit, determination 169 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:56.360 and capability in there, isn't there? Definitely, exactly that. And I think 170 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.360 it's interesting because when I was at that stage, very beginning stage of my 171 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.520 career, I absolutely never would have 172 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:08.040 admitted I was quite ashamed of the context that 173 00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:11.800 I'd grown up in, and I never would have talked about it openly. I 174 00:11:11.800 --> 00:11:15.440 certainly wouldn't have done something like this back then, because you're trying 175 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.400 so hard to act like everybody else and sound like everybody else and 176 00:11:19.400 --> 00:11:23.250 just fit in. You do not want. I didn't want anybody to know that I 177 00:11:23.250 --> 00:11:26.850 had come from a low economic 178 00:11:27.010 --> 00:11:30.970 background, for example. Yeah. I feel very. It 179 00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:34.490 makes me feel optimistic that we can have these sorts of conversations now. And 180 00:11:34.490 --> 00:11:38.370 hopefully it's difficult when you're. Particularly with 181 00:11:38.690 --> 00:11:42.650 economic status, it can be difficult to identify who the 182 00:11:42.650 --> 00:11:46.370 people are that have come from similar beginnings to you unless they're open about 183 00:11:46.370 --> 00:11:48.930 it. So I think it's really important to have these kind of conversations. 184 00:11:50.390 --> 00:11:53.270 I mean, I grew up. So I was born in the mid-60s and I grew 185 00:11:53.270 --> 00:11:56.710 up in a world where they were called council houses at the time. 186 00:11:57.270 --> 00:12:01.150 They're social housing delay. And you could have come 187 00:12:01.150 --> 00:12:05.070 from the other side of the street in. In the council house. And there was 188 00:12:05.070 --> 00:12:08.950 a real stigma about that from the. From the. This side of the street. 189 00:12:09.750 --> 00:12:13.630 But there was also a camaraderie around the people who came from that. That 190 00:12:13.630 --> 00:12:17.430 environment. So you kind of had this sort of split between being 191 00:12:17.430 --> 00:12:21.390 stigmatised but also feeling empowered as being. Yeah, I'm proud to be 192 00:12:21.390 --> 00:12:25.150 coming from this side of the street. And now we have this concept, really, with 193 00:12:25.150 --> 00:12:28.430 social housing. The stigma being. Social housing is very similar 194 00:12:28.910 --> 00:12:32.670 where the social mobility around that or the stigma attached. 195 00:12:32.910 --> 00:12:36.423 You're being labelled by postcode almost, aren't you? Yeah, I agree. It's 196 00:12:36.423 --> 00:12:40.077 interesting. I think I was, as I say, very ashamed when I was 197 00:12:40.077 --> 00:12:43.729 younger, particularly around. I remember the free school 198 00:12:43.729 --> 00:12:47.086 meals. You had a pink card. You got given a pink piece of 199 00:12:47.086 --> 00:12:50.963 cardboard that you had to hand over. So it was very obvious when 200 00:12:50.963 --> 00:12:54.840 you were kind of getting your lunch that you were not paying for 201 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.791 it. And I remember trying so desperately to show the pink card in 202 00:12:58.791 --> 00:13:02.744 as least and obvious way as possible. But now I feel very proud of 203 00:13:02.744 --> 00:13:06.621 it. I think it's easier to say when you're further along in your 204 00:13:06.621 --> 00:13:10.572 journey and Especially I've had lots of sliding doors, moments 205 00:13:10.572 --> 00:13:14.151 along the way, where opportunities have come, presented 206 00:13:14.151 --> 00:13:18.101 themselves or been made available to me that have, I guess, kind 207 00:13:18.101 --> 00:13:21.678 of accelerated that mobile journey, the socially mobile 208 00:13:21.678 --> 00:13:25.333 journey for me. So I recognise it's easier for me to say now I 209 00:13:25.333 --> 00:13:28.987 don't have any shame around it, but it isn't something to be 210 00:13:28.987 --> 00:13:32.640 ashamed of. It really isn't. And I sort of wish and hope that 211 00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:36.591 people realise that when they're, you know, starting out at the 212 00:13:36.591 --> 00:13:39.510 beginning as well. People often use the word privilege. 213 00:13:42.530 --> 00:13:45.410 Do you associate yourself with having a lack of privilege or. 214 00:13:46.370 --> 00:13:50.290 Because it can become quite loaded, you know, what does privilege mean? Is it 215 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:53.890 a weaponized term? Is it, you know, you quite admit 216 00:13:54.130 --> 00:13:57.930 you just said there you've come from this background and some might 217 00:13:57.930 --> 00:14:01.610 say that you lacked the social privilege that others 218 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.170 had. Yeah, I think it's a really 219 00:14:05.170 --> 00:14:07.810 interesting question and I think that 220 00:14:09.280 --> 00:14:12.680 I often think there's two things can be true at the same time. So you 221 00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:16.640 can have a lot of privilege in some respects and not a 222 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:20.320 lot of privilege in other respects. I. Absolutely. 223 00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:24.439 Now where I sit today, I have a huge amount of 224 00:14:24.439 --> 00:14:28.280 privilege in lots of different ways and lots of different 225 00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:31.840 facets. And even back when I was 226 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.930 much younger, where I would say you that in a lot of 227 00:14:35.930 --> 00:14:39.050 respects, I didn't have a lot of privilege. I certainly didn't have a lot of 228 00:14:39.050 --> 00:14:42.930 financial privilege. But there were other ways 229 00:14:42.930 --> 00:14:46.490 in which you could argue I did have certain degrees of privilege. You know, I 230 00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:50.010 grew up in a home with a very supportive mother. 231 00:14:50.410 --> 00:14:54.330 You know, people don't necessarily have that family support around them. So I 232 00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:58.090 think it's important not to be too black and white about 233 00:14:58.890 --> 00:15:02.770 the concept of privilege. And I also think you're right, it's a very loaded 234 00:15:02.770 --> 00:15:06.630 term. And people can feel quite defensive about 235 00:15:06.630 --> 00:15:10.630 the idea that they have a degree of privilege. And I think 236 00:15:10.630 --> 00:15:13.870 it would be good to take that sort of weight away from it and see 237 00:15:13.870 --> 00:15:17.590 it quite neutrally. We've all got degrees of privilege and it can shift 238 00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:21.510 according to context as well. So right now I would say absolutely, I have a 239 00:15:21.510 --> 00:15:24.790 lot of privilege and I hope that that's one of the reasons why I'm trying 240 00:15:24.790 --> 00:15:28.510 to use that in a positive 241 00:15:28.510 --> 00:15:32.470 way. Yeah, I often try and describe privileges. It's not what you've. 242 00:15:32.630 --> 00:15:36.070 What you've been through, it's what you haven't had to go through. I love that. 243 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:40.030 Yeah, I agree. That's the difference. So, because of who. Because 244 00:15:40.030 --> 00:15:43.950 of where you are now, you've. You've got here because of who 245 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:47.590 you are, rather than something holding you back. So it's quite 246 00:15:47.590 --> 00:15:51.510 easy. But, yeah, I think most of us, everybody who's 247 00:15:51.510 --> 00:15:55.350 been on this podcast has a privilege that they speak English, that they 248 00:15:55.430 --> 00:15:58.550 have an income, they have a job, that they. They have money in their pocket. 249 00:15:58.550 --> 00:16:02.290 Refurbish your head, refurb your head. So, fundamentally, 250 00:16:02.450 --> 00:16:06.370 you think about yourself as landing on a boat 251 00:16:06.850 --> 00:16:10.810 on the Kent shoreline with basically a life jacket and 252 00:16:10.810 --> 00:16:14.690 a pair of trousers. And then that's where you don't speak any language, you've got 253 00:16:14.690 --> 00:16:18.690 no money, you've got no passport, you've got nothing. And suddenly you are this vulnerable 254 00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:22.690 person that is almost the epitome of no privilege, isn't 255 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:25.890 it, in this country? Absolutely, Yeah, I agree. 256 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:29.860 And everything that happens to you from that point forward on your landing, you have 257 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:32.300 no agency over. You know, are you going to be arrested? Are you going to 258 00:16:32.300 --> 00:16:35.980 be thrown into something if I'm going to listen to you? So, yeah, 259 00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:40.380 when people arrive here, it really is. They've given up everything just to 260 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.660 plant themselves. And I think that that's. That to me, is I have 261 00:16:44.660 --> 00:16:48.300 privilege over those people. Oh, absolutely. Regardless of where I am. 262 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:52.439 Yeah, agree. I sometimes think from my own perspective, 263 00:16:52.439 --> 00:16:56.340 because I've had. I've been on quite a journey from. From 264 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:59.824 where I started. And I think your identity and your 265 00:16:59.824 --> 00:17:03.722 understanding of yourself can be sometimes too heavily 266 00:17:03.722 --> 00:17:07.704 informed by the past. And so I sometimes think, if I landed 267 00:17:07.704 --> 00:17:11.686 in my situation, in my circumstances, as me arrived on the 268 00:17:11.686 --> 00:17:15.668 planet today with everything I have available to me right 269 00:17:15.668 --> 00:17:19.568 now, what would I do with that? Because sometimes you can 270 00:17:19.568 --> 00:17:23.468 let the version of yourself from the past kind of hold you 271 00:17:23.468 --> 00:17:27.285 back a bit. You know, that story of what's available and 272 00:17:27.285 --> 00:17:31.267 not available to you can linger for too long sometimes. So 273 00:17:31.267 --> 00:17:34.834 I think sometimes it's exactly thinking about, if I 274 00:17:34.834 --> 00:17:38.735 landed here, you know, dropped out of the sky, how would I 275 00:17:38.735 --> 00:17:42.719 feel? And I'd feel so lucky, you know, I've got so much to be 276 00:17:42.719 --> 00:17:46.286 incredibly grateful for. So it's good to get a bit of 277 00:17:46.286 --> 00:17:49.909 perspective, I think, sometimes, and just to pause. 278 00:17:50.710 --> 00:17:53.910 Yeah. So going back to talking about the social mobility, 279 00:17:55.350 --> 00:17:59.070 one thing that often occurs to me is the sense of imposter syndrome that people 280 00:17:59.070 --> 00:18:03.070 have, coming from different backgrounds, wherever that may 281 00:18:03.070 --> 00:18:06.710 be, wherever your lack of privilege is, how much is it in the 282 00:18:06.710 --> 00:18:10.230 mindset of the person, not just the environment? 283 00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:14.390 I think so. I have a slightly 284 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:17.510 tricky relationship with imposter syndrome, because I 285 00:18:18.390 --> 00:18:22.390 absolutely recognise it as a thing, as a concept. I think 286 00:18:22.470 --> 00:18:26.470 the language around it, for me feels uncomfortable 287 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:29.830 because I think I sort of see it in two ways. 288 00:18:30.550 --> 00:18:34.550 Sometimes you feel like an imposter in an environment 289 00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:39.510 because you are. You don't look or sound 290 00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:43.350 like the people in the environment. So if you think about the 291 00:18:44.270 --> 00:18:47.990 sort of definition of imposter, it's. It's somebody who's sort of not meant to be 292 00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:51.990 there or kind of not the norm. So sometimes you can be 293 00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:55.470 in a room or an environment where that is actually 294 00:18:55.550 --> 00:18:59.510 factually the case. So it's not really to do with you or how you 295 00:18:59.510 --> 00:19:03.430 feel about it, but sometimes you can be in a room. And. And I think 296 00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:07.310 that's to your point, that's where it is about your mindset. Like you tell yourself 297 00:19:07.310 --> 00:19:11.060 you don't belong there or that you shouldn't be there. And so I 298 00:19:11.060 --> 00:19:14.900 think, though, that the idea that it's a syndrome, feel is a bit 299 00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:17.900 disempowering. It's almost like it's happening to me and 300 00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:22.540 it's a kind of pathology that I can't help, and I think you can, obviously. 301 00:19:22.860 --> 00:19:26.620 But that's where I think having all sorts of things you can do to help 302 00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:29.660 with that, whether it's coaching or mentoring or 303 00:19:30.300 --> 00:19:34.180 having role models, I think are just very important. And 304 00:19:34.180 --> 00:19:38.060 having people, even around you, who appears just to reflect back to you 305 00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:41.970 that the way you see yourself is not the way necessarily other people 306 00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:45.930 see you. So I remember having. I went to a reunion, sort of 307 00:19:45.930 --> 00:19:49.930 dinner with people who I had done my training with when I 308 00:19:49.930 --> 00:19:53.650 was a baby lawyer. So I was sort of 22, I guess 23, 309 00:19:54.050 --> 00:19:58.050 and we're now much older than that. And we were chatting very 310 00:19:58.050 --> 00:20:01.330 openly about what that experience was like for us all. And I remember saying to 311 00:20:01.330 --> 00:20:05.290 somebody, I felt constantly like I stuck out like 312 00:20:05.290 --> 00:20:09.130 a sore thumb. I was constantly anxious, I was constantly waiting for somebody to 313 00:20:09.130 --> 00:20:12.910 tap me on the shoulder and say, there's been a terrible mistake. The CV got 314 00:20:12.910 --> 00:20:16.390 muddled up. You're not actually meant to be here. And he said to me, I 315 00:20:16.390 --> 00:20:20.070 can't believe that you never. You never looked unconfident, you never looked 316 00:20:20.070 --> 00:20:23.870 anxious. And interestingly, he was saying the same thing as well. We were sort of 317 00:20:23.870 --> 00:20:26.310 having a very. He had felt the same way at the same time, and I 318 00:20:26.310 --> 00:20:29.870 hadn't recognised that in him either, because I think you. You worked so hard 319 00:20:29.950 --> 00:20:33.870 to not give it away that it's not obvious for people around you 320 00:20:33.950 --> 00:20:37.910 unless you're sort of open about it. So I think imposter syndrome, 321 00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:41.700 you can kind of fake it till you make it. But I would say I 322 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:45.700 still have moments where I have to make an 323 00:20:45.700 --> 00:20:49.620 effort to remind myself that I belong. I deserve 324 00:20:49.620 --> 00:20:52.180 to be here. I deserve to be in some of the spaces that I'm in. 325 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:56.060 I deserve to have the opportunities that I've got. So for me, it's 326 00:20:56.060 --> 00:20:59.940 probably a lifelong. It's going to be a lifelong mission. I did some 327 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:03.420 work with, I think it was a college or university in London. 328 00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:07.190 And what they were doing was they were preparing 329 00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:11.350 younger people from low socioeconomic backgrounds 330 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.550 to be ready to work in magic circle firms, big city 331 00:21:15.550 --> 00:21:19.230 firms. So they were teaching them how to. How to have 332 00:21:19.230 --> 00:21:23.110 dinner, about the etiquette of dining around, how 333 00:21:23.110 --> 00:21:26.990 to sit in a chair, all this kind of etiquette so 334 00:21:26.990 --> 00:21:30.550 that people would fit in. And I thought, that's really sad because 335 00:21:30.870 --> 00:21:33.910 the opposite of belonging is fitting in, isn't it? So what we're trying to do 336 00:21:33.910 --> 00:21:37.890 is we're. We're trying to remould people to be fit into someone 337 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:41.810 else's culture. And I thought, wow, that's assimilation. It's assimilation. 338 00:21:41.810 --> 00:21:44.610 It's the world of the work, isn't it? It is the world of the work. 339 00:21:44.610 --> 00:21:48.130 And I think the. Yeah, again, interesting, 340 00:21:49.010 --> 00:21:52.130 tricky topic. I remember something very similar 341 00:21:52.770 --> 00:21:56.290 around going to a client meal and 342 00:21:57.090 --> 00:22:00.290 there was more than one wine glass. There's more than one glass. And I thought, 343 00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:04.630 what are you supposed to do with all of these? So I think the 344 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:08.270 way I feel about that is, I agree with you. We shouldn't be trying 345 00:22:08.350 --> 00:22:12.150 to kind of shave people and mould people into the version 346 00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:15.990 of themselves that they need to be to fit it. Fit into those environments, as 347 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:19.990 you say. But equally, I do think it's important to do that 348 00:22:19.990 --> 00:22:23.390 because if you find yourself in an environment like that and you feel 349 00:22:23.550 --> 00:22:26.950 anxious or overwhelmed and you don't know what to do, it's so damaging to your 350 00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:30.820 confidence. So I think there's a little bit of both. I think 351 00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:34.620 for as long as there are spaces and situations like that that 352 00:22:34.620 --> 00:22:38.620 require you to know those unwritten rules and those etiquettes and those 353 00:22:38.860 --> 00:22:42.860 social expectations or professional expectations, then we must 354 00:22:42.860 --> 00:22:46.700 equip people to go in ready for that. But then I also 355 00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:50.620 think we should be looking at the spaces more broadly and thinking, well, how can 356 00:22:50.620 --> 00:22:53.820 we make this more so that we don't have to do all of that training 357 00:22:53.820 --> 00:22:57.490 on the right wine glasses and the right fork to use and what to wear 358 00:22:57.490 --> 00:23:01.210 and how to network and all of those. Yeah, So I. I think it's. 359 00:23:01.370 --> 00:23:05.210 I think, yeah, my role with the wine glass was 360 00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:09.210 always use the biggest one and Ins and insist they fill it to the top. 361 00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:13.690 That's a good rule of thumb. So generally the red wine glass is always the 362 00:23:13.690 --> 00:23:16.810 bigger one, isn't it? And, well, I know that now, but I mean, back then 363 00:23:16.810 --> 00:23:20.740 I had no idea. Not a clue. No. But 364 00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:24.660 it is daunting. I mean, again, we're here talking about social mobility. We talk about 365 00:23:25.220 --> 00:23:28.940 trying to get people accelerating. You know, whether we call it imposter syndrome or call 366 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:32.860 it limiting beliefs or whatever it may be, there is this social 367 00:23:32.860 --> 00:23:36.540 anxiety around not wanting to feel stupid or 368 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:40.420 feel, feel like you, you, you've, you've, you've put your foot in it. And I 369 00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:44.180 don't think these privileged environments are often that 370 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:47.580 welcoming and that they, they almost like 371 00:23:47.580 --> 00:23:51.340 reinforce the barrier sometimes. You know, let's keep the lower people out 372 00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:53.980 and keep it for us nice people. And, 373 00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:58.620 and that's the perception from the outside. You're looking up, thinking, wow, I can never 374 00:23:58.620 --> 00:24:02.191 climb that ladder. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I, I think, I think 375 00:24:02.191 --> 00:24:06.011 sometimes a friend of mine actually said this yesterday, that the 376 00:24:06.011 --> 00:24:09.760 people who hold the privilege, you know, hold the map, typically 377 00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:13.718 often don't even realise they're holding it. They don't, they don't 378 00:24:13.718 --> 00:24:17.467 realise how exclusive they're being. They, and I think they just 379 00:24:17.467 --> 00:24:21.357 therefore think about it's so normal to them that there's no second 380 00:24:21.357 --> 00:24:25.316 thought for. They never stop to think how might this feel to somebody 381 00:24:25.316 --> 00:24:29.135 who hasn't been in this environment before? But I agree it can feel 382 00:24:29.135 --> 00:24:33.095 very exclusionary. And that fear of putting your foot in it or saying 383 00:24:33.095 --> 00:24:36.984 the wrong thing, I mean, I've done it so many times. I remember one of 384 00:24:36.984 --> 00:24:40.872 the first conversations I had when I started my training contract. 385 00:24:40.872 --> 00:24:44.831 We were talking about we'd met some senior partners from the law firm 386 00:24:44.831 --> 00:24:48.511 and there were a group of us talking about what we'd done over the 387 00:24:48.511 --> 00:24:52.400 summer. And we were sort of going around the circle and everyone had 388 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.358 done really impressive things and I'd worked in a fencing factory, a 389 00:24:56.358 --> 00:25:00.248 fencing company, sort of filling in purchase orders and stuff like 390 00:25:00.248 --> 00:25:04.136 that, and in a Portakabin. And I didn't know whether to be honest and 391 00:25:04.136 --> 00:25:07.469 say that and just kind of own it, or to say nothing or to make 392 00:25:07.469 --> 00:25:11.009 something up. But so I said what I'd done and I spent the rest of 393 00:25:11.009 --> 00:25:14.967 the conversation thinking, this is horrendous. I feel awful, I'm so 394 00:25:14.967 --> 00:25:18.786 embarrassed. And they must be judging. And I'm sure, looking back 395 00:25:18.786 --> 00:25:22.675 now, no one gave that as much of a second thought. I mean, they've got 396 00:25:22.675 --> 00:25:26.495 better things to worry about than me working in a fencing company. 397 00:25:26.495 --> 00:25:30.453 But at the time I thought, this is horrendous. So that fear of. I think 398 00:25:30.453 --> 00:25:34.134 that fear of saying the wrong thing can just stop you from saying 399 00:25:34.134 --> 00:25:37.815 anything at all. And then you really lose the benefit of having a 400 00:25:37.815 --> 00:25:41.773 diverse range of people in the environment. If you're going to have. 401 00:25:41.773 --> 00:25:45.732